[e-gold-list] Re: A way to make it a true custodial arrangement
> (I dont think you even CAN redeem egold AT ALL now, right? So what? > Who says you should be able to redeem it? What if when you stored a > bar with Viamat, the contract was you cannot take it out for 150,000 > years, it must remain in there .. but of course you can still sell it > to someone else etc ... it would be "an ownership thing", it would > not be a "a contract promising redemption in something" thing, ie it > would be the thing itself, not a note for the thing...the paperwork > surrounding the 150,000 year stored bar would not be Notes "promising > redemption in something", they would just be the paperwork supporting > the fact that you own that bar.) where is this contract on gold ownership at viamat saying you cannot take delivery for 150 000 years? --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Patents are the reason it matters
that makes absolute sense, Ken! Thanks! >The GoldMoney patent claims that it is NOT a deposit currency, but rather a new invention, called a Digital Gold Currency that is different from and superior to deposit currencies. ie, "is not" a deposit currency. Indeed, I (perhaps foolishly) just naturally assumed that this was the whole idea with eg/gm, etc (ie, if its just another bit of paper, a note, the whole thing is no big deal and we wouldn't all be here) Say - what about this notion of doing a "share currency" (Vault of gold .. one share per one milligram .. no redeemability .. actual ownership .. etc) .. already been tried? --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Patents are the reason it matters
Actually, JP, this seems like a small point of semantics to you. The reason it is very significant is that the GoldMoney patents are dependent upon the idea that they eliminate payment risk by making the holder the actual owner of the gold in the vault. If my thesis were to be proved right in court then the GoldMoney patents would be invalidated on the basis that the invention cannot do what it claims to do in the patent. If my thesis is wrong, then the GoldMoney patents would only apply to a currency with teh same governance setup as GoldMoney. Since e-gold and e-bullion have their gold owned by a trust, they are by definition "deposit currencies". The GoldMoney patent claims that it is NOT a deposit currency, but rather a new invention, called a Digital Gold Currency that is different from and superior to deposit currencies. Therefore digital gold deposit currencies do not fall under the definition of the invention patented by GoldMoney. Either way, e-gold, e-bullion, Standard Reserve, and Pecunix are off the hook with regard to patent infringement due to this fact. As I have said, I could be wrong. (And I have no plans to test my thesis.) Ken --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: A way to make it a true custodial arrangement
{Everyone seems sick of this dissuccion, especially Craig! :) So I
won't respond any more!}
{Clever ...
>To solve this problem you could take the concept even further and have a
>3-dimensional grid map of each bullion bar in the GoldMoney storage vault,
>so that each milligram of gold could be mapped by its position to a specific
>GoldGram account.
very clever! :) in fact each atom, say! ..}
>1. e-gold still owes all of their accounts the full balance in gold, so
>e-gold takes the loss.
>
>2. The aggregate group of account holders take the loss evenly by share.
>This indicates that the gold is owned by the group, and each account
>represents shares of ownership in the total.
>
Well yes, certainly, number 2 is the solution.
What would, in fact, happen, if this really actually happened in the
real world with e-gold? # 2 would happen, likely .. some court would
sort out an equitable arrangement.
>Either way there is still an intermediary. The gold is not actually owned
>by the account holder. The company, or the group of account holders owes
>him a liability for a certain amount of gold.
You explain this excellently and at length Ken, but what's the uptake?
Lots of things are owned communually ...
you need look no further than corporate title apartments, shared
ownership cabin cruisers, every public company in the world,
virtually every business, virtually every house (owned by a married
couple), what about franchizes (increidbly vague and confusing,
fraught with complexities far greater than your thought experiemnts
above) etc etc.
So what?
You probably wouldn't say MSFT shares "are backed by" the company
microsoft ... no, no-one would ever use that language.
Very often "ownership" rights are quite vague .. you own a hundred
acres, what about water rights .. what happens to the shared fence,
what about mineral rights below the ground. Say there is an
earthquake that displaces borders confusingly with your neighbors
(happens every month somewhere on earth) ... its no amazing mystery,
a court of law will sort out the most equitable arrangement.
You wouldn't suddenly say, "oh, you're right, that example shows that
really the paperwork and property deeds associated with the 100 acres
is actually just Notes against a certain promise of certain
things...", I think.
Almost all concepts of ownership, really, except some very limited
ones (such as "the gold bar in your pocket") are tenuous and frought
with the sort of example thought-experiment-disasters you give.
The whole raison d'etre (sorry I have no alternate phrase) of
e-gold/GM is to NOT be "a contract promising redemption in something"
(as Craig accurately puts it) but rather a new clever legal construct
of property ownership where you actually the gold in the vault is
yours.
A "a contract promising redemption in something" is, specifically, a
note, a money (in the colloquial sense where money means "fractional
reserve paper instrument"), a currency (ditto) ... and again, the
very reason Geoff Turk got out of bed as I understand it
and invented the idea, is that "a contract promising redemption in
something" sucks, and its better to have a new novel idea (now
[supposedly at least] seen as GM/eg)
(I dont think you even CAN redeem egold AT ALL now, right? So what?
Who says you should be able to redeem it? What if when you stored a
bar with Viamat, the contract was you cannot take it out for 150,000
years, it must remain in there .. but of course you can still sell it
to someone else etc ... it would be "an ownership thing", it would
not be a "a contract promising redemption in something" thing, ie it
would be the thing itself, not a note for the thing...the paperwork
surrounding the 150,000 year stored bar would not be Notes "promising
redemption in something", they would just be the paperwork supporting
the fact that you own that bar.)
I'll just maintain that the whole idea of GM/eg was to get away from
the fundamental idea of a note (a contract promising redemption in
something) and make it "a clever new version of property ownership of
an actual thing .. transferrable on the web to boot"
Extremely novel, bizarre, new notions of "property ownership" (like
franchizes, say) crop up every decade (the 'group ownership' question
you mention Ken seems to be the least of the problems!) that's
what GM/EG seems to be, and indeed the very reason for it was to make
a Money that is specifically NOT a "promise to pay" money, but rather
a "its yours and its stored" money.
Perhaps both companies have completely cocked up, I dont know.
the words 'backed' and 'reserve' are used in every case for
fractional and promissory note -like entities (because those things
have to be backed up by something), the words 'backed' and 'reserve'
are specifically never used in cases like, say, shares in companies
Perhaps thats the way to think of egold / GM grams, as shares in the
lump of g
[e-gold-list] A way to make it a true custodial arrangement
The only way that the claim made by JP could be true would be if the following condition were met: - Each account is a digital title to an identifiable, physical piece (or pieces) of gold that can be identified individually in the vault as belonging to that particular account owner. It would theoretically be possible to do this using bullion coins and some kind of grid system so that each coin was identified with a position in the vault. Each account would be the owner of a certain number of coins, whose positions would be associated in the database with that account, so it could be proved WHICH PARTICULAR COINS each account holder was the owner of. The only problem with this kind of system is that it does not allow fine divisibility. That is, the smallest practical size to mint a gold coin is probably 1 gram. This type of system could not allow transactions smaller than the minimum coin size. To solve this problem you could take the concept even further and have a 3-dimensional grid map of each bullion bar in the GoldMoney storage vault, so that each milligram of gold could be mapped by its position to a specific GoldGram account. The only problem with that is if I want to take out the gold milligram owned by GoldGram Account #A34-567-39Z it cannot be removed from the bar without destroying the bar. In fact, if it is in the center of the bar, there is no way to even identify it without destroying the bar. The bar could have an air bubble inside, so there could be no gold in the spot where a particular gold milligram is supposed to be. So the idea of mapping the gold to parts of a bullion bar would not solve the requirement for each account to own individual, identifiable pieces of gold. A system like the coin grid idea above would allow the claim to be made that the holder is the actual owner of the gold coin that GoldMoney is storing for him. ALSO, the way that you PROVE that the gold is not owned by the actual account holder is this: If an armed gang breaks into Viamat and steals a third of the gold held for e-gold, and it turns out that it wasn't insured, who's gold got stolen? There is no way to tell which account holder lost their gold. One of two conditions must exist: 1. e-gold still owes all of their accounts the full balance in gold, so e-gold takes the loss. 2. The aggregate group of account holders take the loss evenly by share. This indicates that the gold is owned by the group, and each account represents shares of ownership in the total. Either way there is still an intermediary. The gold is not actually owned by the account holder. The company, or the group of account holders owes him a liability for a certain amount of gold. The digital note is still a note for gold, just like a one dollar bill that is redeemable for a certain weight in silver. Therefore, it ain't a custodial arrangment like Viamat, because you don't know which account holder owns which bar of gold, or fraction of a bar. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC (ad banners redux)
JP, > However, IMHO, you're wrong that the fact that it is a derivative is > the clincher. > > >Both are transferable *derivatives* of gold. That is, they are > >contractual obligations whose value derives from that of gold. The > >principal contractual commitment is the obligation to redeem e-gold > >in gold on demand (under certain circumstances). > > Well said, but to some extent this is just restating the problem, no? No. It is simple: a contract promising redemption in gold is not the same as gold. > There are many "derivatives", you would probably agree, where it is > NOT appropriate to use the words "backed", "reserve", "fractional". > You're saying e-gold is a case where it is. On the contrary I never said a single thing one way or the other about the word "backed". I think it is silly to argue about the meaning of a word and I will not do it. [You tell me exactly what you mean by the word and I will tell you whether your meaning applies to e-gold.] I was talking about the reality; which is: e-gold is not gold and when you own e-gold you do not own gold but a derivative based on gold. E-gold is not a fractional reserve currency. (Exactly what that has to do with the word "backed" I leave to you.) But that does not make it gold. > As both Bob and I have pointed > out, it becomes clearer if you think of it as a simple manual system > where you fone up Jim for a spend, and again its even clearer if you > consider systems like Viamat storage and MDOs Not the same thing. In niether case (eg/GM) do you have real title. You only have a (conditional) promise of redemption. > but the VERY IDEA of e-gold/goldmoney is that it is > a "storage/ownership..." entity.) Niether are. e-gold does not claim to be. GoldMoney does so claim but the facts are otherwise. > >The principal contractual commitment is the obligation to redeem > >e-gold in gold on demand (under certain circumstances). > > Are you saying that the "redeemable only under certain circumstances" > quality is the clincher No. I only included the "under certain circumstances" qualifier so that people would not introduce an irrelevancy by objecting that they couldn't redeem a 1oz coin. But then Bob did it anyway! > that makes it not-storage/ownership/non-backyness? They are storing gold. But you do not own any of it. What you own is a contractual obligation promising conditional redemption. [What that has to do with "backing" I leave to you.] e-gold still is not gold but a derivative. > If people think eg/GM have screwed up and failed to achieve that aim, > ie the basic fundamental notion of e-gold, then sure, they have > cocked up and it should be improved. Just because I disagree with you about the nature of e-gold does not mean I think that it is "cocked up" (at least for that reason). I never thought it was intended to be a gold storage fiduciary (I think that is what 3PGold or even the Perth Mint do) and am not dissapointed that it is not. Best, CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC (ad banners redux)
Craig,
{Firstly,
>Namely, that altho they are right about ownership transfer and the
>depository nature of the system the key issue is NOT the fugibility
>or (non-allocated nature) of the gold storage.
Yes, Ken & Snowy are wrong that that issue is relevant, IMHO.
However, IMHO, you're wrong that the fact that it is a derivative is
the clincher.}
>Both are transferable *derivatives* of gold. That is, they are
>contractual obligations whose value derives from that of gold. The
>principal contractual commitment is the obligation to redeem e-gold
>in gold on demand (under certain circumstances).
>
Well said, but to some extent this is just restating the problem, no?
There are many "derivatives", you would probably agree, where it is
NOT appropriate to use the words "backed", "reserve", "fractional".
You're saying e-gold is a case where it is. Fair enough, I'm saying
the opposite -- e-gold (and GoldMoney) are "worthy of the assertion
backed should not be used". Why? Yet again ...
(a) the very raison detre of GoldMoney/egold is to produce a system
"worthy of the assertion backed should not be used", ie, the whole
point was to make an "anti-money" (b) As both Bob and I have pointed
out, it becomes clearer if you think of it as a simple manual system
where you fone up Jim for a spend, and again its even clearer if you
consider systems like Viamat storage and MDOs .. again, the whole
point, the very raison d'etre of egold being "to facilitate
storage/ownership/non-backyness in the same way as Viamat storage,
but, with a handy web interface and fungibility"
(By all means, you may, as Ken does, DISPUTE that e-gold or GoldMoney
has succeeded .. but the VERY IDEA of e-gold/goldmoney is that it is
a "storage/ownership/non-backyness" entity.)
(Come to think of it -- I suppose THAT'S MY OPINION of what's going
on with e-gold/GM. Based on various hundreds of published comments,
and the e-gold tag line, etc etc. Say -- hopefully Mr. Turk will
make a comment here that I'm totally wrong, and GoldMoney was always
supposed to be a fractional reserved backed currency ... that would
shut me up!)
>The principal contractual commitment is the obligation to redeem
>e-gold in gold on demand (under certain circumstances).
Are you saying that the "redeemable only under certain circumstances"
quality is the clincher that makes it not-
storage/ownership/non-backyness? {Much as Snowdog/Ken were saying
the fungibility?}
If so, I don't agree .. there are many situations where something is
only "redeemable only under certain circumstances" (even something as
simple as a bank vault or self-storage rental unit has spectacular
fine print about when you may possibly not be able to access your
stuff .. you'd likely not thus assert that self-storage units are
merely "backed" by old books, etc.)
For example,
>Another example is that the value of e-gold and GoldMoney should
>differ slightly because of their different governing contracts.
Again, means little ... every different variety of *physical* gold
trades at different prices. Kilobars, 400 oz bars, with or without
certification, in different jurisdictions, ounce coins, all trade
differently .. different liquidities bids and asks .. interstingly
90% of the world's gold trading, I imagine, goes down excatly as in
the e-gold concept .. with people ringing up Viamat and transferring
ownership of bars.
Again -- you would never talk about "backed" or "reserve" in a Viamat
or MDO context, and again the very raison d'etre of GoldMoney/E-gold
is to provide precisely that same "storage/ownership/non-backyness"
I guess all I'm really saying is it's a truism that e-gold is
(perhaps "meant" is the crucial word) to be a legal construct that
specifically, and this is the whole idea of the exercise now, TAKES
AWAY, DEMOLISHES the notions of backed/reserve/fractional...ie, it's
really your gold.
{Perhaps held via trust for you...I own lots of things by trust but
they're mine.}
If people think eg/GM have screwed up and failed to achieve that aim,
ie the basic fundamental notion of e-gold, then sure, they have
cocked up and it should be improved.
---
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Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers
than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the
e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] RE: Call for NAME SUGGESTION - latest DGC
I'm a bit behind on e-mail... > Anyone have a good name idea? 1mdc-AUG - Reid - --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: History Channel's history of gold series
> http://www.historychannel.com/gold/ (-- warning, shockwave-intro.!) > > If someone were to get this on VHS tape the 21st, I'd be willing to part > with a gram or two, as this sounds interesting. Thanks. Let's all write to them and ask if they'll take e-gold? SnowDog --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] "JC!"
GOOD CALL JIM! My funbonds are paying out at about 3 to 4 times what I paid, jesus! the second days payment will pay off what I paid! Here's to the TGC going down for a few days!! :) I bought more than ten by using multiple accounts, too :) Don't tell anyone. Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 15:22:35 GMT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Your TGC FunBond Report! Dear The Gold Casino user: jpm Here are the daily results for your The Gold Casino FunBonds! Purchase date: 2001-08-18 00:52:25 Number of bonds: 3 Todays yield: 0.7028 grams Your yield today: (0.7028 x (3) bonds) = 2.1084 grams Yield to date: 2.1084 grams You have 9 remaining FunBond payments left from this batch! We've put the 2.1084 grams right into your TGC account. Check your new balance now at http://www.thegoldcasino.com Don't forget to click the large 'refresh' button (to the right) to see your latest balance. See the figures on the TGC FundBond market at http://www.thegoldcasino.com/cgi-bin/funbonds.cgi News: if you're interested in a referral program, check out TGC's fat and meaty referral bonuses at http://www.thegoldcasino.com/f/refer.html Good gold luck, The Floor Manager, TGC --- http://www.thegoldcasino.com http://www.thegoldcasino.com/f/faq.r.html (c) 2000 The Gold Casino thegoldcasino.com --- "Shockwave (tm), Apple(tm), Netscape(tm) and other registered trademarks and devices used herein are registered trademarks of their respective owners." --- --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
Very convincing, David! --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] History Channel's history of gold series
http://www.historychannel.com/gold/ (-- warning, shockwave-intro.!) If someone were to get this on VHS tape the 21st, I'd be willing to part with a gram or two, as this sounds interesting. Thanks. JMR --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
Bob wrote: > > Craig Spencer wrote: > > > Both are transferable *derivatives* of gold. That is, they are > > contractual obligations whose value derives from that of gold. > > I'm not so sure about that Craig. A derivative's value is a function > of more than the underlying security. You are completely right that a derivative's value is a function of more than the underlying security. That is not contrary to my statement. E-gold is a particularly simple derivative but I did not mean that it derives *only* from gold. Your example pointing out that, in e-gold's case, it also depends on the reputation of the operators is a good one. Another example is that the value of e-gold and GoldMoney should differ slightly because of their different governing contracts. > > The principal contractual commitment is the obligation to > > redeem e-gold in gold on demand (under certain circumstances). > > Currently, for almost all people who have ... some gold in > e-gold ... have to plain 'ol go out and buy some coins or > stuff at a regular jewelry or coin dealer who uses the e-gold > payment system.So I suppose the word redemption could be used, No, that is not really redemption. Note that I did choose my words carefully and said that e-gold only promises redemption "under certain circumstances". Those that you pose above are not those "certain circumstances". The point is that without ANY means of redemption e-gold would not have value for long. Ultimately, the willingness of your e-gold taking coin dealer to sell you gold for e-gold depends on the ability of someone who accumulated over $100,000 worth of e-gold to redeem it for bullion. Best, CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] FW: "metallic analogue of ice cream and chocolate"
Forwarding, as I neglected to cc... -Original Message- From: PR@EG Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 4:05 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: "metallic analogue of ice cream and chocolate" Dear Mr. Moley, I happened upon your website (http://www.chocolove.com/) by following a link on the website of this chocolate lover: http://www.moonplants.f2s.com/chocolate.html who also happens to operate a small, web based business selling Moonplant Seeds: http://www.moonplants.f2s.com/ After spending some time reading through your website and listening to your interview with WildOats.com, I was impressed by your apparent ability to distinguish technical competence from artistic ability and of your conviction that it takes love to produce art. I'm certainly moved to buy your product, but I would prefer to pay you with e-gold. e-gold is better money: http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/qanda.html accepted by those discriminating enough to prefer your products (such as the lady who owns the MoonPlant site), and a growing number: http://www.e-gold.com/stats.html of (presumably chocolate loving) others: http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/links.htm. I'd be most appreciative if you would: 1. Open an e-gold account... Free of charge... 2. Experiment to your heart's content... I'd be delighted to Spend you a little e-gold to experiment with (e-mail me your account number). 3. Accept e-gold as a payment method on your website (http://www.chocolove.com/) e-gold can be seamlessly integrated into online shopping carts (as on the MoonPlants website). On that topic, one of the nicest shopping cart implementations I've seen to date is http://magazinedepot.com/, where the devout can order magazines such as, say, "Chocolatier". Will be glad to provide or refer you to any tech help you might need in this regard. After you've made it apparent on your website that you accept e-gold, I'd be delighted to link to you from the e-gold website and to recommend you to others at every possible opportunity (between mouthfuls of Chocolove). In fact, even now, I'm copying the e-gold Discussion list, populated by many who would be more than willing to Spend e-gold for chocolate, and who might even tell you so. :) Regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED] P.S. Your concern for the people who produce the requisite natural ingredients for your product reminds me of Capulin coffee, another e-gold accepting merchant: http://www.capulincoffee.com/ P.P.S. I almost forgot the mandatory press reference. We've had recent mentions in the press (Barron's and Reuters) that we are very pleased with and that I'd be happy to snail you copies of, but in the meantime, I thought you might get a kick out of the chocolate metaphor in this one (plus it lends a little symmetry to this message): http://www.thestreet.com/funds/strategies/1262395.html --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
> No, e-gold is NOT gold (nor is GoldMoney, despite their assertions). > > Both are transferable *derivatives* of gold. That is, they are > contractual obligations whose value derives from that of gold. The > principal contractual commitment is the obligation to redeem e-gold > in gold on demand (under certain circumstances). This is 100% correct, e-gold and goldmoney currencies are contractual entitlements which depend on the reputation, capacity, structure, accountability and balance sheet of the counter-party to the contract. This should be fairly obvious as theses currencies have explicit user agreements and go to considerable lengths to make credible their promises to redeem their currencies in bullion. Gold backed currencies such as e-gold and gold money are financial derivaties that are gold substitutes, and their economic inputs include gold bullion (equal in quantity to the face value of the gold substitutes) as well as the rental of the reputation of the persons and entities that affirm the capacity and will of the organisation to redeem its currency. A well developed monetary system will also have other gold substitutes which have as their economic inputs fractional inputs of gold bullion and fractional inputs of gold debts. This will include gold banks and currencies that provide money to transactors. David Hillary --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
> I think 'DGC' is a better acronym! ...and everyone has their own opinion, this is yours. > > there's nothing "backed" about e-gold. the day e-gold is "backed" by > gold is the day we all stop using e-gold. ...yeah, and if you "Fly the friendly skies", are you truly in "friendly" skies? > > e-gold is no more "backed" by gold than the local self-storage > lock-up sheds that I use are "backed" by my excess furniture and > boxes of books! Yeah, ok... > > Words have meanings (unless you're a socialist). At the risk of sounding arrogant OR ignorant, you have started an debate BASED on a word. I feel the ONLY certain response would be... "AND YOUR POINT IS?" Simple words with simple meanings usually gets the point across to a quick and demanding public. In my opinion, using the term "backed" suits the situation perfectly seeing as most individuals would not fully understand the most politically correct terminology. By replacing the term "backed" with a page or two explaining the mechanics of the eCurrency in which we are using, one could create a dilemma that would actually turn people away through confusion and serious misunderstanding. I'm sure there are much better things one can be doing than going completely "point - counterpoint" on everyone over a term. We've nick-named our site "The Global Economy Spider", which does not mean a giant mechanical spider is webbing up the global economy. No, it's a reference to an action set in motion by terminology that best describes a simple function... and it's catchy. I always thought the term "Backed" was catchy, whether or not it was politically correct to suit the anti-socialists of the world. My 2 cents worth. =;] Have a great day. eCurrencyCrawler - BACKED by humans! http://www.americonn.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
Craig Spencer wrote: > Both are transferable *derivatives* of gold. That is, they are > contractual obligations whose value derives from that of gold. I'm not so sure about that Craig. A derivative's value is a function of more than the underlying security. At the end of 1979 a big US underwriter came up with the Danish put warrant, a put on the Nikkei Dow. The timing couldn't have been better. The first thing Jimmy Rogers questioned on TV was whether the underwriter would stand behind the put and come up with the money. Or for how long they would come up with the money. Who's responsible for the performance of the derivative? What's their reputation for integrity? Doug and Barry's reputation, in my opinion, is a bit tarnished now. Can the tarnish ever be burnished off? I doubt it, such is the nature of reputations. e-gold's a payment system that transfers instructions to change control over bits and pieces of the gold in the vaults. The same thing can be done with 2 humans talking on the phone, making credits and debits in books, using lead pencils. It would be a lot slower though. I wouldn't call those 2 people, their books, their phones and their lead pencils a currency. The > principal contractual commitment is the obligation to redeem e-gold > in gold on demand (under certain circumstances). Currently, for almost all people who have a degree of control (sometimes called ownership) over some gold in e-gold's rented vault space, if they want to get that gold in their hands (which they can't), they have to plain 'ol go out and buy some coins or stuff at a regular jewelry or coin dealer who uses the e-gold payment system. So I suppose the word redemption could be used, but very very loosely. bob --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
JP, I have to disagree with you and Bob. > e-gold is just a service that stores gold for you and charges you > an annual fee to do so. Ken Griffith and SnowDog have explained why you are wrong rather thoroughly. So there is little need for me to repeat them. I will only say how I disagree with them. Namely, that altho they are right about ownership transfer and the depository nature of the system the key issue is NOT the fugibility or (non-allocated nature) of the gold storage. > Similarly e-gold is not "backed" by anything. e-gold the company > is just a company; one e-gold gram is simply a gram of gold that > is being held in storage No, e-gold is NOT gold (nor is GoldMoney, despite their assertions). Both are transferable *derivatives* of gold. That is, they are contractual obligations whose value derives from that of gold. The principal contractual commitment is the obligation to redeem e-gold in gold on demand (under certain circumstances). Best, Craig --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Finally!!!
Ah JP, > I can't believe how much I missed it! I am not particularly a keen > gambler but TGC has that CLEAN, PURE SMELL OF CAPITALISM. > > To be able to honestly play around with a few centigrams of HONEST, > REAL MONEY -- GOLD -- with and against other burnished-pure > capitalists, is a fresh-air experience. You wax poetic. And absolutely right! CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Complete eCurrency Exchange Solution !
> Complete eCurrency exchange solution. Your can convert between eCurrencies > and purchase/cash in by various methods. Very low comissions. Referral > program and lots of other benefits for members. Membership is absolutely > FREE. What a great idea! However, beware: 1) There are numerous examples of bad punctuation and spelling on the website. 2) There is no verifiable contact information. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] URGENT ALERT !!! RE: GOLD-VAULT.COM
IF you accessed http://www.gold-vault.com your computer is in danger. As well might be your gold. I don't know if this application is a Trojan for a backdoor to sniff your puter keystrokes or just something destructive to destroy your data. All the way around it is a very BAD thing. IF you do not understand what I have typed below GET HELP...!! Ask your closest guru. I would help more, but I'm packing to leave town. This is all I can do for you for now. You need to go into DOS ( for those who don't know DOS is your disk operating system -- what Windoze runs on --- without DOS windows would not run ) and remove anything that bears any resemblence to the following. This is what I have found thus far. I have not gone into the system registry yet. It may be hiding somewhere else on your system. BUT it may not. If you go into Windows Explorer you may find it there like I did. I had some weird stuff in my temp files too got rid of those. I also have all my network adapters modifed so that it is impossible for them to telnet in etc. Have manually closed a number of ports including netbios. Get this bad boy out of your system ASAP..!! GOOD LUCK...!!! Sorry I can't help morebut am providing you with enough for you to ask someone for help. I have to get packed and I have to get this out of my machine myself. Had feeling of bad juju as soon as I visited the site. My concerns have now been verified. = Here ya go: Typegold-vault Location C:\My Documents Size: 11.0KB (11,264 bytes), 16,384 bytes used MS-DOS name GOLD-V~1.com ( that tilde should be higher --- bloody keyboard ) also the -(dash could be a . (dot) is very difficult for me to see ) The strings that you should look for are further down. Created Aug 16 AccessedAug 18 ( this is on my machine ) C:\MYDOCU~1\GOLD-V~1.COM PIFMGR.DLL PIF name: C:\MYDOCU~1\GOLD-V~1.PIF --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Complete eCurrency Exchange Solution !
Complete eCurrency exchange solution. Your can convert between eCurrencies and purchase/cash in by various methods. Very low comissions. Referral program and lots of other benefits for members. Membership is absolutely FREE. Just go to http://www.fastdigitalexchange.com and enjoy all those benefits. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Examimer suggestion...
It would be neat to drill down on the "Number of Pieces" column and see see a list of the exact stats for each bar (specifically the ID number). Consider changing the header "Coin Name" to "Metal Type" and "Fine Weight per piece" to "Average Weight per Piece". It would make things a little clearer, transparency a little higher and only take 5 minutes ;) Jeff --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
> e-gold isn't and has never been backed by gold. It can't be. It's > a payment system. What's so hard to understand about this. So what > if people are calling e-gold a GBC. The terminology doesn't decide > what reality is. It's the payment system that allows gold itself > to circulate electronically. Gold is not backed by gold. Gold can't > be backed by gold. E-Gold is not gold. Was DigiGold, gold? I still have my gold coins. Where's my digigold? DigiGold was a credit for e-gold, just like e-gold is a credit for gold. To eliminate this important distinction is to make a serious epistemological error. The value of e-gold depends on a number of factors, in addtion to the value of the underlying asset, which is gold. When people put money into a bank, do they still own the money? The correct answer is 'no', as numerous 'bank holidays' and bank failures of the past can attest to. The bullion stored by E-Gold is owned by the E-Gold Bullion Reserve Special Purpose Trust, on behalf of the E-Gold account holders. The gold isn't even technically owned by the account holders. SnowDog --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
> there's nothing "backed" about e-gold. the day e-gold is "backed" by > gold is the day we all stop using e-gold. E-Gold is 'backed' by gold. It is not gold. It is one step removed, and exists as a 'credit' for gold, issued on the word of the issuer, 'E-Gold'. >From the website: "e-gold is an electronic currency, issued by e-gold Ltd., a Nevis corporation, 100% backed at all times by gold bullion in allocated storage." SnowDog --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
