Re: [Elecraft] An AGC Story

2010-12-12 Thread Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy
Bob,

Yes I did see your post thanks, but have not yet had the opportunity to 
digest your results - but I will.

When you made these measurements, what settings did you use for the 'audio' 
Hi-cut and Lo-cut?

My thinking was that I would first look at the SA612's output wile injecting 
multiple signals, and then do the same at suitable points along the signal 
path as it made its way to the audio output. By doing this it should be 
possible to find the weakest link in the chain (in terms of IMD), and then 
attempt to do something to improve the 'weak link's' performance.

May I take this opportunity to stress that my comments were not intended to 
be any kind of criticism of the K3.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

 .
Bob Henderson b...@5b4agn.net wrote on Sunday, December 12, 2010 4:11 AM:

snip

 I made within DSP b/w IMD measurements on my K3 and comparable
 measurements on my K2. These were included in a post dated 5 December
 but you may have missed it.

 The following measurements relate to K3 S/N 4904 on 7MHz with 2.7kHz
 roofing filter and 2.7kHz DSP b/w.  Default slow AGC was selected.
 The table shows input level at the K3 antenna connector for
 each of two carriers spaced 500Hz.  At each input level, the level of
 the strongest IMD product observed at the AF output using an HP8568B is 
 recorded
 alongside.

snip


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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC Story

2010-12-12 Thread Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy
Guy, have one (or several) on me for suggesting such a sensible idea :-)

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD
 
Guy Olinger K2AV

On Sunday, December 12, 2010, at 10:04 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

Thank you, Bob.

But you have robbed Geoff of his favorite whipping boy.  We will have
to take Geoff out to a pub and help him drown his sorrows.

What was your setup?

73, Guy




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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC Story

2010-12-12 Thread Dick Green WC1M
Speaking of criticism, I've done my share of complaining about AGC pumping
and pileup mush in the K3. That said, it's still the best contest receiver
I've ever use, by a wide margin. It's sensitive, quiet and incredibly
selective. In fact, I can get *too* close to adjacent stations without
realizing it! 

In actual contest conditions, the AGC pumping can be reduced to more-or-less
acceptable levels by using the 8-pole 400 Hz filter. It becomes a
non-problem with the 5-pole 200 Hz filter. I suspect it could be reduced
even more by increasing the HAGC threshhold, but evidently not without
changing other components in the chain to avoid increased IMD. 

IMHO, the pileup mush is no worse than any other receiver I've used, and
most of the time it's better (that sounds strange, but you know what I
mean.) Considering that I had quite a few hours with my rate meter near
200/hr in CQ WW CW, I'd have to say the mush isn't reducing my rate a whole
lot. One clue is that the mush effect is most noticable when there's a
pileup of relatively weak signals and there's not a nearby strong station --
i.e., when the HAGC is not activated. If most of the signals are at the same
pitch, it's mush. A bunch of really weak signals like that are simply darned
hard to copy, and I'm beginning to think that no receiver can separate them
unless AGC is turned off, with the attendant problem of ears being blown out
when a strong station drops by. I have found, however, that the situation
improves considerably with diversity reception using two antennas with
opposite polarity. There's enough difference in the ever-changing arrival
angles to be able to distinguish weak signals at the same pitch. No other
receiver can do that for me.

73, Dick WC1M

-Original Message-
From: Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy [mailto:gm4...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 6:30 AM
To: Bob Henderson
Cc: Elecraft Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] An AGC Story

Bob,

Yes I did see your post thanks, but have not yet had the opportunity to 
digest your results - but I will.

When you made these measurements, what settings did you use for the 'audio' 
Hi-cut and Lo-cut?

My thinking was that I would first look at the SA612's output wile injecting

multiple signals, and then do the same at suitable points along the signal 
path as it made its way to the audio output. By doing this it should be 
possible to find the weakest link in the chain (in terms of IMD), and then 
attempt to do something to improve the 'weak link's' performance.

May I take this opportunity to stress that my comments were not intended to 
be any kind of criticism of the K3.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

 .
Bob Henderson b...@5b4agn.net wrote on Sunday, December 12, 2010 4:11 AM:

snip

 I made within DSP b/w IMD measurements on my K3 and comparable
 measurements on my K2. These were included in a post dated 5 December
 but you may have missed it.

 The following measurements relate to K3 S/N 4904 on 7MHz with 2.7kHz
 roofing filter and 2.7kHz DSP b/w.  Default slow AGC was selected.
 The table shows input level at the K3 antenna connector for
 each of two carriers spaced 500Hz.  At each input level, the level of
 the strongest IMD product observed at the AF output using an HP8568B is 
 recorded
 alongside.

snip




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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-11 Thread Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy
Chen,

It is not really my place to comment on this subject not having a K3 to
measure, but I would like to offer the following thoughts related to the
naughty things you mention.

Whereas measuring the receiver's audio output level vs.the level of a single
signal injected into the antenna input port will obviously provide some good
information about the AGC's control characteristics, unfortunately this
measurement does not provide any hard data as to whether or not
intermodulation generated in the IF stages will become or is an issue when
two or more strong signals get through the roofer in use.

Given that the 1db compression point of a typical SA612 mixer is reached
when the *composite* power of all signals reaching its input is
approximately minus 25dbm, and given that positive gain exists between the
antenna port and the SA612's input when both the Preamp and Attenuator are
OFF, in the region of 6db I believe when a 400 Hz roofer is in place, then
in the *absence* of any HAGC action the SA612 would enter compression when
the *composite* power of all signals at the antenna port that eventually get
through the roofer is only minus 31dbm. At this level *without* HAGC applied
there would be, of course, a large number of of strong odd order intermod
products appearing at the SA612's output should multiple signals get through
the roofer.

Now bring in the HAGC.

Because part of the method used to control IF gain by the HAGC involves
current starvation of the J309 IF amplifier, it is *possible* that with HAGC
applied the Output Intercept (OIP3) of this amplifier might decrease,
thereby increasing the level of IMD products generated by this amplifier.

So, even though the HAGC might prevent the SA612 from approaching
compression, much of the HAGC's protective work in terms of reducing
unwanted IMD products *might* be undone by the J309 when it is starved of
current. Please understand that this is pure speculation on my part.

If I had a K3, before I changed the HAGC threshold my *first* measurement
would be to look at the output of the SA612 mixer (with a spectrum analyser)
while introducing two or more very close spaced signals into the antenna
port, so that these signals do get through the roofer - as in a pileup. The
objective, of course, would be to obtain an acceptably clean output from the
mixer with non intrusive products over a wide range of antenna input levels.
IMHO the higher the HAGC's threshold can be the better, provided that its
control is tight enough when activated to protect all what follows.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD


Kok Chen wrote on Thursday, December 09, 2010, at 7:05 PM:

 We know that the S9+ signals have to be kept from saturating the A/D
 converter (or even kept in check so the large signal doesn't do
 naughty things to the IF amplifier and the SA612 second mixer -- I
 don't know which of these three is the wimpiest in the chain).  So
 some AGC is neccessary.

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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-11 Thread juergen
Hi Geoff

The noise power ratio test(NPR) might show more clearly any mixer IMD problems. 
The NPR test might also better characterize any roofing filter IMD as well. 

The noise power ratio test  better characterizes dynamic receiver performance. 
The NPR test  also does not require expensive low phase noise signal generators.

73
John

--- On Sat, 12/11/10, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy gm4...@btinternet.com wrote:

 From: Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy gm4...@btinternet.com
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story
 To: Kok Chen c...@mac.com
 Cc: Elecraft Discussion List elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Date: Saturday, December 11, 2010, 5:26 AM
 Chen,
 
 It is not really my place to comment on this subject not
 having a K3 to
 measure, but I would like to offer the following thoughts
 related to the
 naughty things you mention.
 
 Whereas measuring the receiver's audio output level vs.the
 level of a single
 signal injected into the antenna input port will obviously
 provide some good
 information about the AGC's control characteristics,
 unfortunately this
 measurement does not provide any hard data as to whether or
 not
 intermodulation generated in the IF stages will become or
 is an issue when
 two or more strong signals get through the roofer in use.
 
 Given that the 1db compression point of a typical SA612
 mixer is reached
 when the *composite* power of all signals reaching its
 input is
 approximately minus 25dbm, and given that positive gain
 exists between the
 antenna port and the SA612's input when both the Preamp and
 Attenuator are
 OFF, in the region of 6db I believe when a 400 Hz roofer is
 in place, then
 in the *absence* of any HAGC action the SA612 would enter
 compression when
 the *composite* power of all signals at the antenna port
 that eventually get
 through the roofer is only minus 31dbm. At this level
 *without* HAGC applied
 there would be, of course, a large number of of strong odd
 order intermod
 products appearing at the SA612's output should multiple
 signals get through
 the roofer.
 
 Now bring in the HAGC.
 
 Because part of the method used to control IF gain by the
 HAGC involves
 current starvation of the J309 IF amplifier, it is
 *possible* that with HAGC
 applied the Output Intercept (OIP3) of this amplifier might
 decrease,
 thereby increasing the level of IMD products generated by
 this amplifier.
 
 So, even though the HAGC might prevent the SA612 from
 approaching
 compression, much of the HAGC's protective work in terms of
 reducing
 unwanted IMD products *might* be undone by the J309 when it
 is starved of
 current. Please understand that this is pure speculation on
 my part.
 
 If I had a K3, before I changed the HAGC threshold my
 *first* measurement
 would be to look at the output of the SA612 mixer (with a
 spectrum analyser)
 while introducing two or more very close spaced signals
 into the antenna
 port, so that these signals do get through the roofer - as
 in a pileup. The
 objective, of course, would be to obtain an acceptably
 clean output from the
 mixer with non intrusive products over a wide range of
 antenna input levels.
 IMHO the higher the HAGC's threshold can be the better,
 provided that its
 control is tight enough when activated to protect all what
 follows.
 
 73,
 Geoff
 GM4ESD
 
 
 Kok Chen wrote on Thursday, December 09, 2010, at 7:05 PM:
 
  We know that the S9+ signals have to be kept from
 saturating the A/D
  converter (or even kept in check so the large signal
 doesn't do
  naughty things to the IF amplifier and the SA612
 second mixer -- I
  don't know which of these three is the wimpiest in the
 chain).  So
  some AGC is neccessary.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-11 Thread Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy
Hi John,

The NPR test is, I agree, certainly a very useful method to expose IMD
problems, but I think that when used as a *diagnostic* tool the requirements
placed on the notch filter's bandwidth limits this method's versatility -
unless one is prepared to build a set of band reject filters (probably
crystal) that may be required, whose IMD contribution is much less that that
of the receiver, device or sub-system being tested.

To obtain low phase noise from my IMD test arrangement I have been using low
noise crystal oscillators followed by +40dbm output amplifiers, which is I
admit a cumbersome approach, but it did provide useful results until I
damaged the equipment while measuring the IMD generated by some types of RF
transformer - a sad story!

If Santa gave me a K3 I could stop speculating about its multi signal
performance :-)

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD


juergen plebia...@yahoo.com wrote on Saturday, December 11, 2010, at
6:18 PM:

 Hi Geoff

 The noise power ratio test(NPR) might show more clearly any mixer IMD
 problems. The NPR test might also better characterize any roofing filter 
 IMD
 as well.

 The noise power ratio test  better characterizes dynamic receiver
 performance. The NPR test  also does not require expensive low phase noise
 signal generators.

 73
 John




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[Elecraft] An AGC Story

2010-12-11 Thread Bob Henderson
Bottom posted for context.

Geoff GM4ESD wrote

If I had a K3, before I changed the HAGC threshold my *first*
measurement would be to look at the output of the SA612 mixer (with a
spectrum analyser) while introducing two or more very close spaced
signals into the antenna port, so that these signals do get through
the roofer - as in a pileup.  The objective, of course, would be to
obtain an acceptably clean output from the mixer with non intrusive
products over a wide range of input levels.  IMHO the higher the
HAGC's threshold can be the better, provided its control is tight
enough when activated to protect all what follows.


I made within DSP b/w IMD measurements on my K3 and comparable
measurements on my K2. These were included in a post dated 5 December
but you may have missed it.

The following measurements relate to K3 S/N 4904 on 7MHz with 2.7kHz
roofing filter and 2.7kHz DSP b/w.  Default slow AGC was selected.
The table shows input level at the K3 antenna connector for
each of two carriers spaced 500Hz.  At each input level, the level of
the strongest IMD product observed at the AF output using an HP8568B is recorded
alongside.

-73dBm  Better than -55dBc  (Input S9)
-63dBm  -55dBc
-53dBm  -50dBc
-42dBm  -45dBc
-33dBm  -42dBc
-23dBm  -37dBc  (Input S9+50)

These figures are good and IMHO entirely acceptable.  Some older
transceivers would struggle to provide -35dBc at S9.

I made a similar set of measurements with my old K2 S/N 997

-73dBm  -50dBc
-63dBm  -48dBc
-53dBm  -45dBc
-43dBm  -48dBc
-33dBm  -45dBc
-23dBm  -15dBc

Broadly speaking the K3 is as good or better than the K2, which is
itself good. It is possible later mods to the K2 may have made it even
better.  The most recent mods to my K2 were carried out over 5 years ago.

73 Bob, 5B4AGN
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-10 Thread Barry N1EU


David Gilbert wrote:
 
 Nice program, but it doesn't run with LP-Bridge if I want to have more 
 than one application (N1MM, CW Skimmer, K3_EZ, etc)  interfacing with my 
 K3.  It is fine for simplifying the changing of AGC settings, but not on 
 the fly during a contest.
 
I strongly agree.  There's a great need for some simple utilities for the K3
that will run with LP-Bridge or other CAT port sharing schemes:  AGC/EQ
management, expanded rig display, subrx control (avoid BSET), etc

Barry N1EU

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/An-AGC-story-tp5817486p5822793.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-10 Thread Larry Phipps
  I have been talking with Dick Dievendorf about changes to the K3 
Utility and LP-Bridge to allow most of the utility functionality to work 
(not including firmware revisions, however). This should benefit other 
utilities as well. The problem is finding time for changes and testing.

Larry N8LP



On 12/10/2010 12:00 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 03:39:04 -0800 (PST)
 From: Barry N1EUbarry.n...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story
 To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Message-ID:1291981144656-5822793.p...@n2.nabble.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



 David Gilbert wrote:
   
   Nice program, but it doesn't run with LP-Bridge if I want to have more
   than one application (N1MM, CW Skimmer, K3_EZ, etc)  interfacing with my
   K3.  It is fine for simplifying the changing of AGC settings, but not on
   the fly during a contest.
   
 I strongly agree.  There's a great need for some simple utilities for the K3
 that will run with LP-Bridge or other CAT port sharing schemes:  AGC/EQ
 management, expanded rig display, subrx control (avoid BSET), etc

 Barry N1EU

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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-10 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV

Fred,

For more on the K3 AGC system, please see the excellent study
by Jack Smith, K8OZA at:
   http://cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm

Careful study of Jack's tables would tend to support your belief that
the K3 could benefit from a higher threshold setting.  Comparing the
behavior of the K2 to that of the K3 as shown in Jack's charts, shows
support for a threshold of some 20 dB higher than the present -100 dBm
(~S4) that K8OZA measured for THR=8.   That would place the threshold
around S8 (-79 dBm) similar to that shown by the K2.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/8/2010 8:01 PM, Cady, Fred wrote:
 After Team Vertical got back from our latest adventure in C6land, I was
 curious about how the AGC was working (or not). Kenny, C6ATA came away
 from the event really preferring his venerable TS850. Both Walt, C6ATR
 and I, C6AKX found turning AGC off was a way to increase the depth of
 the pileup and continue to rapidly pull signals out.
 I made some measurements and have posted the results for your perusal
 and information at www.ke7x.com.

 73,
 Fred
 Ke7x
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-10 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV

  Very interested findings -  Fred has a graph of AGC action with AGC
  THR=8 labeled figure 3 on http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :

That graph is nearly identical to the information that Jack Smith,
K8OZA originally presented two years ago:
   http://cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm

The following table comes from Jack's work:

  From the data, my estimate of the threshold settings is:
 
 AGC THRCorresponding Input
Signal Level
   2  -117   dBm
   3  -110.5 dBm
   4  -105   dBm
   5  -103.5 dBm
   6  -102.5 dBm
   7  -101   dBm
   8   -99   dBm

The K2 AGC curve is also presented for comparison.  K2 does not
have a well defined threshold like that of the K3 but some AGC
action (the curve departs from 1:1) begins at around -85 dBm and settles 
at slope similar to the K3 SLP=09 or SLP=10 (about 1.5 dB
audio change for 10 dB RF change) at an RF level around -70 dBm.

As a second point of comparison, Sherwood's Receiver Performance Table
shows the FT-1000D has an AGC threshold nearly 10 dB higher than the
K3 *with the FT-1000D preamplifier enabled*.  Since the FT-1000D
preamp is at least 10 dB, that represents an overall 20 dB higher
ACG threshold (around S8/S9 with preamp off and S6/S7 with preamp on).

It seems clear that the K3 would have much better pile-up performance
if range of AGC THR were expanded by as much as 20 dB either by
increasing the step (5/6 differ by only 1 dB) or by increasing
the number of options.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/9/2010 9:07 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:


 Cady, Fred wrote:

 I made some measurements and have posted the results for your perusal
 and information at www.ke7x.com.

 Very interested findings -  Fred has a graph of AGC action with AGC THR=8
 labeled figure 3 on http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :

 So I ask this group: is it possible to raise the AGC Threshold from s3 to s6
 or s9 by simply reducing the RF Gain control?  Can anybody estimate what
 settings of the RF Gain control would accomplish that?

 Barry N1EU

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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-10 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV

Chen,

  Imagine that there are three parameters, the current two, plus a
  upper threshold, after which the slope becomes 15  (i.e. flat at
  S0 to THR, then constant SLOPE until upper threshold and then flat
  from there until the front end starts to smoke),.

The AGC is already a three piece curve.  Below the AGC threshold (-117 
to -99 dBm depending on THR) the audio:RF response is 1:1.  Above the
threshold the audio:RF ratio varies between 0.4 dB/dB to 0.05 dB/dB 
(according to K8OZA's measurements) until the HAGC activates between -43 
and -48 dBm at which time the output becomes flat (no further increase).

What this discussion appears to be asking for is the option to raise 
the level of first inflection point (AGC threshold) from approximately
-99 dBm with THR=08 to somewhere in the mid -70 dBm range without using
the attenuator and losing the weak signals.  That is, nobody wants to
give up the ability to receive a -128 dBm signal by using a 10 or 20 dB
of attenuation when the receiver is easily capable of detecting a -130
dBm signal without use of a preamplifier but they do want reasonable
level cues to use in separating signals close to the same frequency.

What is needed is to broaden out the steps in THR from as little as 1
dB per step to something like a uniform 6 dB per step or adding more
steps (e.g., 16 choices at 3 dB/step so that the threshold can be set
over a -117 to -70 dBm range rather than the current limited -117 to -99 
dBm range (K8OZA measurements).

Since HAGC does not activate until the RF input reaches -48 to -43 dBm,
one must assume that the IF amplifier, 2nd Mixer and ADC are capable
of functioning properly well beyond the levels generated at -70 dBm
input and raising the threshold even if it means using a flatter slope
would not cause serious performance issues.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 12/9/2010 2:05 PM, Kok Chen wrote:
 On Dec 9, 2010, at 12/99:17 AM, k...@aol.com wrote:

 But, since AGC works on every signal in the  passband, if there are
 two signals - one S9 and the other S3 appearing at the  same time,
 the S3 signal will disappear because the AGC is knocking down the
 S9  signal to an S3 level and thereby also reducing the S3 signal to
 the  noise.

 My impression from reading what has transpired is that some people are
 more concerned that when the S9 signal is *not* there, that the S3
 appears to be too loud?

 We know that the S9+ signals have to be kept from saturating the A/D
 converter (or even kept in check so the large signal doesn't do
 naughty things to the IF amplifier and the SA612 second mixer -- I
 don't know which of these three is the wimpiest in the chain).  So
 some AGC is neccessary.

 Perhaps people will be happier if the AGC response is not as linear
 (in the log-log scale) as the one in the K3 once you have past the AGC
 threshold.  I.e., perhaps people would care less if an S7 signal sound
 as loud as an S9 signal, but they do want the S3 signal to sound less
 loud as the S7 signal.  A non-linear transfer function like that is
 certainly easy to implement (as long as I don't have to be the one
 to implement it :-), but will this make more people happy?  Who knows?

 Basically, this is what I am simple-mindedly visualizing: currently,
 there are only two parameters to control a piecewise linear curve.

 Imagine that there are three parameters, the current two, plus a
 upper threshold, after which the slope becomes 15  (i.e. flat at
 S0 to THR, then constant SLOPE until upper threshold and then flat
 from there until the front end starts to smoke),.  You then smooth out
 the piecewise linear curve using a pair of homotopy between those
 three partitions.  You will end up with (1) a smooth curve instead of
 the piecewise linear one currently, and (2) a way to say I care more
 about distinguishing an S3 from an S9 signal than I do an S7 and S9
 signal.

 Notice that if a simple homotopy is applied to smooth the AGC transfer
 function, and even if upper threshold is set to S7, you will still
 hear a difference between S7 and S9 -- just much less than between S3
 and S9.  Also, if the AGC curve is no longer piecewise linear you will
 still hear the S3 signal even if the lower threshold is set to an S3.

 I still think the only way to satisfy everybody is if everyone would
 homebrew their own rig, or sell an open commercial rig where you are
 allowed to make any mods -- hardware, firmware, or software.  See
 first option :-) :-).

 73
 Chen, W7AY

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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Barry N1EU


Cady, Fred wrote:
 
 I made some measurements and have posted the results for your perusal
 and information at www.ke7x.com.
 
Very interested findings -  Fred has a graph of AGC action with AGC THR=8
labeled figure 3 on http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :

So I ask this group: is it possible to raise the AGC Threshold from s3 to s6
or s9 by simply reducing the RF Gain control?  Can anybody estimate what
settings of the RF Gain control would accomplish that?

Barry N1EU

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/An-AGC-story-tp5817486p5818820.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Don Wilhelm
  Barry,

Without doing any measurements it may be difficult to say precisely, and 
I would think there would be a bit of difference from one K3 to another.

However, there is a quick and easy way to accomplish that - note that 
the S-meter increases as the RF gain is reduced.  So if you want to 
increase the AGC Threshold by (say) 3 S-units, disconnect the antenna, 
and reduce the RF Gain until you move the no-signal S-meter up by 3 
S-units.  That should be close to your goal.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/9/2010 9:07 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:

 Cady, Fred wrote:
 I made some measurements and have posted the results for your perusal
 and information at www.ke7x.com.
 Very interested findings -  Fred has a graph of AGC action with AGC THR=8
 labeled figure 3 on http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :

 So I ask this group: is it possible to raise the AGC Threshold from s3 to s6
 or s9 by simply reducing the RF Gain control?  Can anybody estimate what
 settings of the RF Gain control would accomplish that?

 Barry N1EU

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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Barry N1EU
Thanks Don.  I just realized that I can do some quick experiments to get my
answer using an XG2's s3/s9 capability and noting audio level increase with
AGC Off and then with AGC On and reducing RF Gain until same audio increase
is accomplished.

An aside to KE7X and W4TV:  I too wish we could try experimental firmware
that significantly raised the max AGC THR value.

And to K6LL: Yes, I too fear loss of weaker signals

73, Barry N1EU

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote:

  Barry,

 Without doing any measurements it may be difficult to say precisely, and I
 would think there would be a bit of difference from one K3 to another.

 However, there is a quick and easy way to accomplish that - note that the
 S-meter increases as the RF gain is reduced.  So if you want to increase the
 AGC Threshold by (say) 3 S-units, disconnect the antenna, and reduce the RF
 Gain until you move the no-signal S-meter up by 3 S-units.  That should be
 close to your goal.

 73,
 Don W3FPR

 On 12/9/2010 9:07 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:


 Cady, Fred wrote:

 I made some measurements and have posted the results for your perusal
 and information at www.ke7x.com.

 Very interested findings -  Fred has a graph of AGC action with AGC THR=8
 labeled figure 3 on http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :

 So I ask this group: is it possible to raise the AGC Threshold from s3 to
 s6
 or s9 by simply reducing the RF Gain control?  Can anybody estimate what
 settings of the RF Gain control would accomplish that?

 Barry N1EU


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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Cady, Fred
Thanks Barry for the suggestion to run some curves while changing the RF
gain position. I've done that and I'm not sure I understand what is
going on yet. Need to think about it a bit. I'll post the curves up on
ke7x.com in a while.
Fred


Fred Cady
fcady at ieee dot org  

 -Original Message-
 From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
 [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU
 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:11 AM
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story
 
 Thanks Don.  I just realized that I can do some quick 
 experiments to get my
 answer using an XG2's s3/s9 capability and noting audio level 
 increase with
 AGC Off and then with AGC On and reducing RF Gain until same 
 audio increase
 is accomplished.
 
 An aside to KE7X and W4TV:  I too wish we could try 
 experimental firmware
 that significantly raised the max AGC THR value.
 
 And to K6LL: Yes, I too fear loss of weaker signals
 
 73, Barry N1EU
 
 On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Don Wilhelm 
 w3...@embarqmail.com wrote:
 
   Barry,
 
  Without doing any measurements it may be difficult to say 
 precisely, and I
  would think there would be a bit of difference from one K3 
 to another.
 
  However, there is a quick and easy way to accomplish that - 
 note that the
  S-meter increases as the RF gain is reduced.  So if you 
 want to increase the
  AGC Threshold by (say) 3 S-units, disconnect the antenna, 
 and reduce the RF
  Gain until you move the no-signal S-meter up by 3 S-units.  
 That should be
  close to your goal.
 
  73,
  Don W3FPR
 
  On 12/9/2010 9:07 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:
 
 
  Cady, Fred wrote:
 
  I made some measurements and have posted the results for 
 your perusal
  and information at www.ke7x.com.
 
  Very interested findings -  Fred has a graph of AGC action 
 with AGC THR=8
  labeled figure 3 on http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :
 
  So I ask this group: is it possible to raise the AGC 
 Threshold from s3 to
  s6
  or s9 by simply reducing the RF Gain control?  Can anybody 
 estimate what
  settings of the RF Gain control would accomplish that?
 
  Barry N1EU
 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread K4IA
As I understand the graphs and  operation:

AGC Threshold is the point at which AGC action  starts.  The higher the AGC 
THR number, the higher point at which AGC  starts.  The highest AGC THR (8) 
starts AGC action at S3.   That  is a pretty low level but any setting less 
than THR 8 starts the AGC action with  even less signal. 

AGC SLP is how aggressive the AGC action is as  signals rise.  A highest 
AGC SLP number means the AGC flattens  everyone.  AT SLP = 15 all signals 
above S3 are brought to roughly the same  level.  Heard one at a time, two 
signals - one at S3 and one at S9 will  sound the same level.

But, since AGC works on every signal in the  passband, if there are two 
signals - one S9 and the other S3 appearing at the  same time, the S3 signal 
will disappear because the AGC is knocking down the S9  signal to an S3 level 
and thereby also reducing the S3 signal to the  noise.  Using a less 
aggressive (lower) slope number will help but the  dynamic range between and S3 
and 
S9 signal is compressed.  The core problem  is the AGC starts at such a low 
level.  Background noise alone on 80 - 40  is almost always more than S3. 

The suggestion is an AGC THR  setting to allow higher than an S3 level 
before AGC action starts.  That  makes sense but does it start to degrade the 
high-end dynamic range of the  radio?  Are we in danger of overloading the 
intermediate amplifiers/mixers  generating IMD and other unwanted issues?  
Seems like there is a balancing  act here.

Another way to accomplish this is to use the Attenuator  and/or reduce the 
RF gain to reset our starting point so that the S5 signal at  the antenna 
becomes an S3 signal at the AGC level and our AGC action doesn't  really begin 
until S5.  I would like the ability to switch in even more  attenuation for 
high noise conditions.  Can that be done through the  software?

Still I would like to try a higher AGC THR setting and see how  it plays.  
The beauty of this radio is its ability to adjust to different  conditions - 
one size does not fit all.  Unfortunately, its also  complicated.  It has 
taken me three years to figure this little bit  out.  

Comments?  Do I understand it  right?

Buck
k4ia
K3  #101








In  a message dated 12/9/2010 10:11:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
barry.n...@gmail.com writes:
Thanks Don.  I just realized that I can do  some quick experiments to get my
answer using an XG2's s3/s9 capability and  noting audio level increase with
AGC Off and then with AGC On and reducing RF  Gain until same audio increase
is accomplished.

An aside to KE7X and  W4TV:  I too wish we could try experimental firmware
that significantly  raised the max AGC THR value.

And to K6LL: Yes, I too fear loss of weaker  signals

73, Barry N1EU

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Don Wilhelm  w3...@embarqmail.com wrote:

  Barry,

  Without doing any measurements it may be difficult to say precisely, and 
 I
 would think there would be a bit of difference from one K3 to  another.

 However, there is a quick and easy way to accomplish  that - note that the
 S-meter increases as the RF gain is reduced.   So if you want to increase 
the
 AGC Threshold by (say) 3 S-units,  disconnect the antenna, and reduce the 
RF
 Gain until you move the  no-signal S-meter up by 3 S-units.  That should 
be
 close to your  goal.

 73,
 Don W3FPR

 On 12/9/2010 9:07  AM, Barry N1EU wrote:


 Cady, Fred  wrote:

 I made some measurements and have posted the  results for your perusal
 and information at  www.ke7x.com.

 Very interested findings -  Fred  has a graph of AGC action with AGC 
THR=8
 labeled figure 3 on  http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :

 So I  ask this group: is it possible to raise the AGC Threshold from s3 
to
  s6
 or s9 by simply reducing the RF Gain control?  Can anybody  estimate what
 settings of the RF Gain control would accomplish  that?

 Barry  N1EU


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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Kok Chen
On Dec 9, 2010, at 12/99:17 AM, k...@aol.com wrote:

 But, since AGC works on every signal in the  passband, if there are  
 two signals - one S9 and the other S3 appearing at the  same time,  
 the S3 signal will disappear because the AGC is knocking down the  
 S9  signal to an S3 level and thereby also reducing the S3 signal to  
 the  noise.

My impression from reading what has transpired is that some people are  
more concerned that when the S9 signal is *not* there, that the S3  
appears to be too loud?

We know that the S9+ signals have to be kept from saturating the A/D  
converter (or even kept in check so the large signal doesn't do  
naughty things to the IF amplifier and the SA612 second mixer -- I  
don't know which of these three is the wimpiest in the chain).  So  
some AGC is neccessary.

Perhaps people will be happier if the AGC response is not as linear  
(in the log-log scale) as the one in the K3 once you have past the AGC  
threshold.  I.e., perhaps people would care less if an S7 signal sound  
as loud as an S9 signal, but they do want the S3 signal to sound less  
loud as the S7 signal.  A non-linear transfer function like that is  
certainly easy to implement (as long as I don't have to be the one  
to implement it :-), but will this make more people happy?  Who knows?

Basically, this is what I am simple-mindedly visualizing: currently,  
there are only two parameters to control a piecewise linear curve.

Imagine that there are three parameters, the current two, plus a  
upper threshold, after which the slope becomes 15  (i.e. flat at  
S0 to THR, then constant SLOPE until upper threshold and then flat  
from there until the front end starts to smoke),.  You then smooth out  
the piecewise linear curve using a pair of homotopy between those  
three partitions.  You will end up with (1) a smooth curve instead of  
the piecewise linear one currently, and (2) a way to say I care more  
about distinguishing an S3 from an S9 signal than I do an S7 and S9  
signal.

Notice that if a simple homotopy is applied to smooth the AGC transfer  
function, and even if upper threshold is set to S7, you will still  
hear a difference between S7 and S9 -- just much less than between S3  
and S9.  Also, if the AGC curve is no longer piecewise linear you will  
still hear the S3 signal even if the lower threshold is set to an S3.

I still think the only way to satisfy everybody is if everyone would  
homebrew their own rig, or sell an open commercial rig where you are  
allowed to make any mods -- hardware, firmware, or software.  See  
first option :-) :-).

73
Chen, W7AY

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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Andrew Faber
I have no doubt that AGC adjustments are largely a matter of personal 
preference, and I congratulate Elecraft on making the K3 as adjustable as it 
is without overwhelming us with so many variations that we'd go crazy trying 
to figure it out.
 As an example of individual adjustments, I used the K3 as my run radio in 
CQWW CW  from P49Y in 2009.  Because I wanted help thinning out the pileup, 
I found that setting the SLP to 1, but leaving the AGC on worked well, and 
allowed me to ride the RF gain control to help distinguish signals while 
still offering some AGC protection against very strong signals.
  OTOH, in this years CQWW CW, where I was just doing some SP DXing from my 
home station, I set the SLP to 6,  to allow me to turn the gain up higher to 
detect weak signals while still having protection against very strong ones. 
Using SLP 1 in that scenario with the RF gain all the way up was just too 
close to not having AGC at all.
  So I encourage everyone to experiment within the existing framework.
  73, Andy ae6y
- Original Message - 
From: Kok Chen c...@mac.com
To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Cc: k...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story


 On Dec 9, 2010, at 12/99:17 AM, k...@aol.com wrote:

 But, since AGC works on every signal in the  passband, if there are
 two signals - one S9 and the other S3 appearing at the  same time,
 the S3 signal will disappear because the AGC is knocking down the
 S9  signal to an S3 level and thereby also reducing the S3 signal to
 the  noise.

 My impression from reading what has transpired is that some people are
 more concerned that when the S9 signal is *not* there, that the S3
 appears to be too loud?

 We know that the S9+ signals have to be kept from saturating the A/D
 converter (or even kept in check so the large signal doesn't do
 naughty things to the IF amplifier and the SA612 second mixer -- I
 don't know which of these three is the wimpiest in the chain).  So
 some AGC is neccessary.

 Perhaps people will be happier if the AGC response is not as linear
 (in the log-log scale) as the one in the K3 once you have past the AGC
 threshold.  I.e., perhaps people would care less if an S7 signal sound
 as loud as an S9 signal, but they do want the S3 signal to sound less
 loud as the S7 signal.  A non-linear transfer function like that is
 certainly easy to implement (as long as I don't have to be the one
 to implement it :-), but will this make more people happy?  Who knows?

 Basically, this is what I am simple-mindedly visualizing: currently,
 there are only two parameters to control a piecewise linear curve.

 Imagine that there are three parameters, the current two, plus a
 upper threshold, after which the slope becomes 15  (i.e. flat at
 S0 to THR, then constant SLOPE until upper threshold and then flat
 from there until the front end starts to smoke),.  You then smooth out
 the piecewise linear curve using a pair of homotopy between those
 three partitions.  You will end up with (1) a smooth curve instead of
 the piecewise linear one currently, and (2) a way to say I care more
 about distinguishing an S3 from an S9 signal than I do an S7 and S9
 signal.

 Notice that if a simple homotopy is applied to smooth the AGC transfer
 function, and even if upper threshold is set to S7, you will still
 hear a difference between S7 and S9 -- just much less than between S3
 and S9.  Also, if the AGC curve is no longer piecewise linear you will
 still hear the S3 signal even if the lower threshold is set to an S3.

 I still think the only way to satisfy everybody is if everyone would
 homebrew their own rig, or sell an open commercial rig where you are
 allowed to make any mods -- hardware, firmware, or software.  See
 first option :-) :-).

 73
 Chen, W7AY

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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread David Gilbert


That is why it would be highly desirable to be able to quickly change 
AGC settings on the fly, especially when you consider the additional 
effect that different band noise has on the optimum AGC profile.  I can 
understand Elecraft's reluctance to let users mess with the DSP code via 
macros, but I don't understand why it should not be possible to use 
macros to select from a few different AGC settings that have been preset 
using the CONFIG menu.  It doesn't seem rational to me to build all that 
versatility into the AGC system so that it can be tailored to deal with 
all sorts of operating conditions ... different levels and types of band 
noise, different degrees of QRM, different levels of signal strengths, 
etc ... and then force you to choose only one setting for everything, 
especially during a contest.

73,
Dave   AB7E




On 12/9/2010 12:20 PM, Andrew Faber wrote:
 I have no doubt that AGC adjustments are largely a matter of personal
 preference, and I congratulate Elecraft on making the K3 as adjustable as it
 is without overwhelming us with so many variations that we'd go crazy trying
 to figure it out.
   As an example of individual adjustments, I used the K3 as my run radio in
 CQWW CW  from P49Y in 2009.  Because I wanted help thinning out the pileup,
 I found that setting the SLP to 1, but leaving the AGC on worked well, and
 allowed me to ride the RF gain control to help distinguish signals while
 still offering some AGC protection against very strong signals.
OTOH, in this years CQWW CW, where I was just doing some SP DXing from my
 home station, I set the SLP to 6,  to allow me to turn the gain up higher to
 detect weak signals while still having protection against very strong ones.
 Using SLP 1 in that scenario with the RF gain all the way up was just too
 close to not having AGC at all.
So I encourage everyone to experiment within the existing framework.
73, Andy ae6y
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Don Wilhelm
  Dave,

You can *effectively* increase the AGC threshold by 10 dB very quickly - 
just turn on the attenuator.
Actually, that is more effective than reducing the RF Gain because it 
happens at the receiver input rather than at the IF.
Yes, you can turn the attenuator of the K3 on whether or not the Preamp 
is on.
And, if you have the S-meter set for abs (absolute) mode, it will not 
change with the attenuator or preamp.

If you have signals high enough to produce greater than an S-3 level, 
you will still hear them when you turn the attenuator on, and the 
dynamic range of the K3 is retained.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/9/2010 3:02 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

 That is why it would be highly desirable to be able to quickly change
 AGC settings on the fly, especially when you consider the additional
 effect that different band noise has on the optimum AGC profile.  I can
 understand Elecraft's reluctance to let users mess with the DSP code via
 macros, but I don't understand why it should not be possible to use
 macros to select from a few different AGC settings that have been preset
 using the CONFIG menu.  It doesn't seem rational to me to build all that
 versatility into the AGC system so that it can be tailored to deal with
 all sorts of operating conditions ... different levels and types of band
 noise, different degrees of QRM, different levels of signal strengths,
 etc ... and then force you to choose only one setting for everything,
 especially during a contest.

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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Sverre Holm (LA3ZA)

This is exactly what I found useful during the CQ WW CW contest. I did some
500+ QSOs and found that it is easier to listen to the K3 with the
Attenuator on in the 20 m band. In this band this is something I rarely do
with the K2. This discussion on AGC threshold has perhaps told me the reason
why this is so.


Don Wilhelm-4 wrote:
 
 You can *effectively* increase the AGC threshold by 10 dB very quickly - 
 just turn on the attenuator.
 


-
Sverre, LA3ZA

K2 #2198, K3 #3391
http://www.qslnet.de/member/la3za/K2/mod.html LA3ZA Unofficial Guide to K2
modifications 
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/An-AGC-story-tp5817486p5821194.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread David Gilbert

OK, but that still doesn't address decay or slope ... parameters I might 
want to quickly change dependent upon the amount and type of band noise 
(such as when changing to the low bands or when thunderstorms are 
active) or the number (not only the level) of signals (pileup or QRM).

I still say a few re-callable combinations of AGC settings would make 
sense, even if they had to be initially configured only through the 
CONFIG menu.

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 12/9/2010 1:17 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
  Dave,

 You can *effectively* increase the AGC threshold by 10 dB very quickly 
 - just turn on the attenuator.
 Actually, that is more effective than reducing the RF Gain because it 
 happens at the receiver input rather than at the IF.
 Yes, you can turn the attenuator of the K3 on whether or not the 
 Preamp is on.
 And, if you have the S-meter set for abs (absolute) mode, it will 
 not change with the attenuator or preamp.

 If you have signals high enough to produce greater than an S-3 level, 
 you will still hear them when you turn the attenuator on, and the 
 dynamic range of the K3 is retained.

 73,
 Don W3FPR

 On 12/9/2010 3:02 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

 That is why it would be highly desirable to be able to quickly change
 AGC settings on the fly, especially when you consider the additional
 effect that different band noise has on the optimum AGC profile.  I can
 understand Elecraft's reluctance to let users mess with the DSP code via
 macros, but I don't understand why it should not be possible to use
 macros to select from a few different AGC settings that have been preset
 using the CONFIG menu.  It doesn't seem rational to me to build all that
 versatility into the AGC system so that it can be tailored to deal with
 all sorts of operating conditions ... different levels and types of band
 noise, different degrees of QRM, different levels of signal strengths,
 etc ... and then force you to choose only one setting for everything,
 especially during a contest.


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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Sam Morgan
check out K3_EZ
http://home.roadrunner.com/~n2bc/SW.htm
then connect and check out the AGC Setup page

GB  73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan

On 12/9/2010 8:49 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

 OK, but that still doesn't address decay or slope ... parameters I might
 want to quickly change dependent upon the amount and type of band noise
 (such as when changing to the low bands or when thunderstorms are
 active) or the number (not only the level) of signals (pileup or QRM).

 I still say a few re-callable combinations of AGC settings would make
 sense, even if they had to be initially configured only through the
 CONFIG menu.

 73,
 Dave   AB7E
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread David Gilbert

Nice program, but it doesn't run with LP-Bridge if I want to have more 
than one application (N1MM, CW Skimmer, K3_EZ, etc)  interfacing with my 
K3.  It is fine for simplifying the changing of AGC settings, but not on 
the fly during a contest.

Dave   AB7E



On 12/9/2010 8:18 PM, Sam Morgan wrote:
 check out K3_EZ
 http://home.roadrunner.com/~n2bc/SW.htm
 then connect and check out the AGC Setup page

 GB  73
 K5OAI
 Sam Morgan

 On 12/9/2010 8:49 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
 OK, but that still doesn't address decay or slope ... parameters I might
 want to quickly change dependent upon the amount and type of band noise
 (such as when changing to the low bands or when thunderstorms are
 active) or the number (not only the level) of signals (pileup or QRM).

 I still say a few re-callable combinations of AGC settings would make
 sense, even if they had to be initially configured only through the
 CONFIG menu.

 73,
 Dave   AB7E
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-09 Thread Ian White GM3SEK
David Gilbert wrote:

OK, but that still doesn't address decay or slope ... parameters I 
might want to quickly change dependent upon the amount and type of band 
noise (such as when changing to the low bands or when thunderstorms are 
active) or the number (not only the level) of signals (pileup or QRM).

I still say a few re-callable combinations of AGC settings would make 
sense, even if they had to be initially configured only through the 
CONFIG menu.


It might be more helpful to store the AGC threshold and slope per-band.

The underlying problem is that many people will see a 30-40dB variation 
in antenna noise levels between 30MHz and 1.8MHz, and the K3 has only 
limited facilities to pre-set its front end gain (the one-step 10dB 
attenuator, the +12dB preamp and the manual IF gain control). After 
that, it's all down to the AGC.


-- 

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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[Elecraft] An AGC story

2010-12-08 Thread Cady, Fred
After Team Vertical got back from our latest adventure in C6land, I was
curious about how the AGC was working (or not). Kenny, C6ATA came away
from the event really preferring his venerable TS850. Both Walt, C6ATR
and I, C6AKX found turning AGC off was a way to increase the depth of
the pileup and continue to rapidly pull signals out.
I made some measurements and have posted the results for your perusal
and information at www.ke7x.com.

73,
Fred
Ke7x
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