Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
Joe, The old MP dsp demod is a bit different from the MKV, as far as I know. Given the MP. If I shift the IF in the MP to the opposite sideband, retune with the dial, then the signal is there just like it would be on the right sideband. Then tap the DSP demod and 'presto' : the signal is inaudible. (The S-meter still moves but that is because the dsp demod is outside the AGC-loop). Maybe the difference in suppression level is in the AGC since the MP still has reduced gain when you tap the dsp demod, which is different from the K3 of course. It just struck me that the sidebandsuppression was not so absolute in the K3. Sideband suppression is, I think, another algorithm than passband filtering. But I'm not an expert in DSP SW. 73 Arie -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Just for comparison, using the DSP demod on my old vintage 96 MP. It suppresses the opposite sideband perfectly. That is 13 years old DSP technology and firmware. You must have an exceptional MP ... my MK V would certainly exhibit opposite sideband response in CW if I moved the PBT very low in frequency and then tuned to the other side of the carrier. I can't think of a single radio that had unconditional single signal response if the PBT (or filters) were adjusted so they provided a response on the image. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: Arie Kleingeld PA3A [mailto:p...@xs4all.nl] Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:31 PM To: li...@subich.com Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware Joe, With DSP demodulation the opposite sideband suppression should not be a problem. Just for comparison, using the DSP demod on my old vintage 96 MP. It suppresses the opposite sideband perfectly. That is 13 years old DSP technology and firmware. No reason why a K3 could not match that. But it does not. 73 Arie PA3A -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] Namens Joe Subich, W4TV Verzonden: zaterdag 19 september 2009 17:06 Aan: d...@w3fpr.com CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Onderwerp: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware Hearing a bit of the opposite sideband is a natural effect of using a very low Shift/Lo-Cut setting. No matter how straight sided the DSP filter may be, it does have a finite slope to it (if it did not have slope, it would ring like crazy). The DSP effect would be at audio. The opposite sideband effect is due to no longer fixing the corner of the roofing filter 200 Hz away from the carrier point. Remember, audio frequencies are imaged (folded) around the carrier. The DSP works the same whether audio at 200 Hz is above or below the carrier. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
So I think I may have found a strange bug. Please someone tell me if you can reproduce it. With the latest 3.33 pre-released test I am unable to set the top two knobs to HI/LOW adjustments. However this problem is only present when the radio is in the CW mode. When in this mode tapping the HI/BW knob doesn't change it between modes. ~Brett (KC7OTG) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
It's ok on mine , Brett: Shift/Lo and Hi/Width both work fine in CW. Does I/II work (i.e., long push on Hi/Width)? You may have a problem with the switch. Have you tried SW Test in the Config menu? 73, Drew AF2Z On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:32:09 -0700, Brett (KC7OTG) wrote: So I think I may have found a strange bug. Please someone tell me if you can reproduce it. With the latest 3.33 pre-released test I am unable to set the top two knobs to HI/LOW adjustments. However this problem is only present when the radio is in the CW mode. When in this mode tapping the HI/BW knob doesn't change it between modes. ~Brett (KC7OTG) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
With the latest 3.33 pre-released test I am unable to set the top two knobs to HI/LOW adjustments. However this problem is only present when the radio is in the CW mode. When in this mode tapping the HI/BW knob doesn't change it between modes. When CONFIG PB CTRL CHIFT=.01 you can;t use HI CUT/LO CUT IF SHIFT=.05 (default), then you can. See Release notes for 3.25/2.21. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
Ah yes it does look like that is the case. Went back and read it and it clearly states (there are some limitations at present). Thats somewhat of an esoteric one... Wonder if at some point it can be supported. Seems like it was a difficult one to figure out at the time so rather than dig into that section of and update it to support the new shift it was just disabled. Its been fun watching this thing grow... ~BTH On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 06:07 -0700, Lyle Johnson wrote: With the latest 3.33 pre-released test I am unable to set the top two knobs to HI/LOW adjustments. However this problem is only present when the radio is in the CW mode. When in this mode tapping the HI/BW knob doesn't change it between modes. When CONFIG PB CTRL CHIFT=.01 you can;t use HI CUT/LO CUT IF SHIFT=.05 (default), then you can. See Release notes for 3.25/2.21. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
If there is a bug it is only on your K3 because I have been using the newest FW 3.33 for 2 days now and either on CW or SSB when I tap at the LO-HI knobs they do work as always has done. AD4C The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Brett Howard br...@livecomputers.com wrote: From: Brett Howard br...@livecomputers.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Cc: Wayne Burdick - N6KR, Elecraft wa...@elecraft.com Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 9:32 AM So I think I may have found a strange bug. Please someone tell me if you can reproduce it. With the latest 3.33 pre-released test I am unable to set the top two knobs to HI/LOW adjustments. However this problem is only present when the radio is in the CW mode. When in this mode tapping the HI/BW knob doesn't change it between modes. ~Brett (KC7OTG) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
I see this as a feature, not a bug. HI/LO has no utility for me in CW, and it's annoying when I accidentally tap the DSP controls and select it. When PB CTRL is set to 0.01 -- which I like -- then the control functions are fixed as SHIFT/WIDTH in CW and HI/LO in SSB, exactly what I want. In this case, tapping the knobs displays their settings without changing anything. Please do not 'fix' this! Brett Howard wrote: Ah yes it does look like that is the case. Went back and read it and it clearly states (there are some limitations at present). Thats somewhat of an esoteric one... Wonder if at some point it can be supported. Seems like it was a difficult one to figure out at the time so rather than dig into that section of and update it to support the new shift it was just disabled. Its been fun watching this thing grow... ~BTH On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 06:07 -0700, Lyle Johnson wrote: With the latest 3.33 pre-released test I am unable to set the top two knobs to HI/LOW adjustments. However this problem is only present when the radio is in the CW mode. When in this mode tapping the HI/BW knob doesn't change it between modes. When CONFIG PB CTRL CHIFT=.01 you can;t use HI CUT/LO CUT IF SHIFT=.05 (default), then you can. See Release notes for 3.25/2.21. 73, Lyle KK7P -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
It sounds very nice on CW (and AM), even with my cheap headphones, which are not particularly bass responsive. It is a very pleasant extra dimension when tuning CW bands with wide open filter. It adds a lot to the sound. I wouldn't want to go back to the narrower sound. You can however hear a good bit more of a signal's opposite sideband when you tune through it with a wide filter and/or Shift set very low-- a couple hundred Hz or more on the opposite side for strong signals. I don't think that is a problem but some may complain. 73, Drew AF2Z On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 00:19:24 -0400, Steve N4LQ wrote: I've just been listening all evening with a big smile on my face :*) This is beautiful. Having the LF audio seems to make the entire spectrum sound better. Even QRN is more pleasant to listen to. Thanks Elecraft! What took so long? Why was bass chopped off in the first place? Steve N4LQ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
Drew, Hearing a bit of the opposite sideband is a natural effect of using a very low Shift/Lo-Cut setting. No matter how straight sided the DSP filter may be, it does have a finite slope to it (if it did not have slope, it would ring like crazy). IMHO it is not a problem either - The cure for that condition is easily available to the operator, just set the low end a bit higher and the opposite sideband response goes away. If one really wants to hear those very low frequencies, he will have to accept that a bit of opposite sideband will also be heard. 73, Don W3FPR drewko wrote: It sounds very nice on CW (and AM), even with my cheap headphones, which are not particularly bass responsive. It is a very pleasant extra dimension when tuning CW bands with wide open filter. It adds a lot to the sound. I wouldn't want to go back to the narrower sound. You can however hear a good bit more of a signal's opposite sideband when you tune through it with a wide filter and/or Shift set very low-- a couple hundred Hz or more on the opposite side for strong signals. I don't think that is a problem but some may complain. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
Hearing a bit of the opposite sideband is a natural effect of using a very low Shift/Lo-Cut setting. No matter how straight sided the DSP filter may be, it does have a finite slope to it (if it did not have slope, it would ring like crazy). The DSP effect would be at audio. The opposite sideband effect is due to no longer fixing the corner of the roofing filter 200 Hz away from the carrier point. Remember, audio frequencies are imaged (folded) around the carrier. The DSP works the same whether audio at 200 Hz is above or below the carrier. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 10:30 AM To: drewko Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware Drew, Hearing a bit of the opposite sideband is a natural effect of using a very low Shift/Lo-Cut setting. No matter how straight sided the DSP filter may be, it does have a finite slope to it (if it did not have slope, it would ring like crazy). IMHO it is not a problem either - The cure for that condition is easily available to the operator, just set the low end a bit higher and the opposite sideband response goes away. If one really wants to hear those very low frequencies, he will have to accept that a bit of opposite sideband will also be heard. 73, Don W3FPR drewko wrote: It sounds very nice on CW (and AM), even with my cheap headphones, which are not particularly bass responsive. It is a very pleasant extra dimension when tuning CW bands with wide open filter. It adds a lot to the sound. I wouldn't want to go back to the narrower sound. You can however hear a good bit more of a signal's opposite sideband when you tune through it with a wide filter and/or Shift set very low-- a couple hundred Hz or more on the opposite side for strong signals. I don't think that is a problem but some may complain. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
Just for comparison, using the DSP demod on my old vintage 96 MP. It suppresses the opposite sideband perfectly. That is 13 years old DSP technology and firmware. You must have an exceptional MP ... my MK V would certainly exhibit opposite sideband response in CW if I moved the PBT very low in frequency and then tuned to the other side of the carrier. I can't think of a single radio that had unconditional single signal response if the PBT (or filters) were adjusted so they provided a response on the image. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: Arie Kleingeld PA3A [mailto:p...@xs4all.nl] Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:31 PM To: li...@subich.com Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware Joe, With DSP demodulation the opposite sideband suppression should not be a problem. Just for comparison, using the DSP demod on my old vintage 96 MP. It suppresses the opposite sideband perfectly. That is 13 years old DSP technology and firmware. No reason why a K3 could not match that. But it does not. 73 Arie PA3A -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] Namens Joe Subich, W4TV Verzonden: zaterdag 19 september 2009 17:06 Aan: d...@w3fpr.com CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Onderwerp: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware Hearing a bit of the opposite sideband is a natural effect of using a very low Shift/Lo-Cut setting. No matter how straight sided the DSP filter may be, it does have a finite slope to it (if it did not have slope, it would ring like crazy). The DSP effect would be at audio. The opposite sideband effect is due to no longer fixing the corner of the roofing filter 200 Hz away from the carrier point. Remember, audio frequencies are imaged (folded) around the carrier. The DSP works the same whether audio at 200 Hz is above or below the carrier. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
I have attached links to three .JPG images of the K3's audio response as measured at the headphone jack with SpectraPlus FFT software. Response passband was normalized for both modes. SSB is measured through the 6K filter, and CW through the 8-pole 2.8 kHz filter. However, V3.33 SSB was taken with Fc = 1.35. It would have made more sense to capture the responses such that three SSB plots would overlay on one graph and three CW plots on a second, but that took too much time in waiting for the firmware to load between plots. Still, you can see radical differences between firmware versions in the kinks below. Rx Band-1 EQ seems operational now too :-)). http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V325.jpg http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V330.jpg http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V333.jpg As you can see, CW with V3.25 has the strongest low-end response relative to 1 kHz, but that can be compensated for with the first two EQ bands. Even as it is, if you draw a horizontal line mid-way through the V3.33 plots, that represents roughly +/- 2.5 dB from 20 Hz through 3.5 kHz. Not too shabby for a communications receiver. As a further experiment, I just added 3 dB to Rx bands 1-3 and the response is now essentially +/- 0dB between 20Hz and 3.5 kHz in SSB through the 6K filter and Fc = 1.35. You can lay the ruler flat on the response. http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V333-EQ.jpg Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
Nice!! Hard to ask for more than that :-) Grant/NQ5T On Sep 18, 2009, at 9:40 PM, Paul Christensen wrote: As a further experiment, I just added 3 dB to Rx bands 1-3 and the response is now essentially +/- 0dB between 20Hz and 3.5 kHz in SSB through the 6K filter and Fc = 1.35. You can lay the ruler flat on the response. http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V333-EQ.jpg Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
I spent much of the evening browsing AM shortwave stations and can confirm that the additional bass lift capability in 3.33 can be used to give a much warmer sound. I reduced the first couple of equaliser bands to +3dB and with the full bandwidth possible with a 13kHz filter, a slight shift below the FC Norm of 1.5 gives much warmer audio. I did find that adjustment varied depending on the voice being listened to in order to get the most satisfying result. In all cases, I did not go below the 1.05 setting to achieve the most satisfactory sound with most being around the 1.30 mark. Similar results were heard with SSB, and brought the K3 into line with good sound from my K2 and a comms Rx, both of which rendered a warmer audio than the K3 prior to beta 3.33. Many thanks, Elecraft. DaveL G3TJP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware
I've just been listening all evening with a big smile on my face :*) This is beautiful. Having the LF audio seems to make the entire spectrum sound better. Even QRN is more pleasant to listen to. Thanks Elecraft! What took so long? Why was bass chopped off in the first place? Steve N4LQ n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:40 PM Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Audio Response - Version 3.33 Firmware I have attached links to three .JPG images of the K3's audio response as measured at the headphone jack with SpectraPlus FFT software. Response passband was normalized for both modes. SSB is measured through the 6K filter, and CW through the 8-pole 2.8 kHz filter. However, V3.33 SSB was taken with Fc = 1.35. It would have made more sense to capture the responses such that three SSB plots would overlay on one graph and three CW plots on a second, but that took too much time in waiting for the firmware to load between plots. Still, you can see radical differences between firmware versions in the kinks below. Rx Band-1 EQ seems operational now too :-)). http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V325.jpg http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V330.jpg http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V333.jpg As you can see, CW with V3.25 has the strongest low-end response relative to 1 kHz, but that can be compensated for with the first two EQ bands. Even as it is, if you draw a horizontal line mid-way through the V3.33 plots, that represents roughly +/- 2.5 dB from 20 Hz through 3.5 kHz. Not too shabby for a communications receiver. As a further experiment, I just added 3 dB to Rx bands 1-3 and the response is now essentially +/- 0dB between 20Hz and 3.5 kHz in SSB through the 6K filter and Fc = 1.35. You can lay the ruler flat on the response. http://216.229.20.37/images/K3-V333-EQ.jpg Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.105/2380 - Release Date: 09/18/09 07:49:00 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
