Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Dave New, N8SBE]

There is an Android app, EsSense, which you can set to check spots that
mention 2m or 6m, and your locality.  It will run in the background on
your phone, and alarm you with sound and/or vibration when spots turn
up.  I've had it load on my phone for a while, but haven't played with
it much.

Anyone else have experience with this app, or similar ones?  I don't
know if this works on iPhones, or not.  Anyone know, if there is an
iPhone version, or a similar program for the iPhone folks?

I think I learned of this program in one of the QST Eclectic columns,
where they listed a bunch of ham radio apps for Android and iPhone.

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Dave Cole]

I have a Perl script that scrapes my DX cluster, and announces when a
band is open...  If you want it, email me DIRECT, NOT ON THE LIST, and I
can send it to you.  It uses no more resources than any other cluster
client, so it can work on many clusters.  The script has more comments
than actual code, so it is readable.  

You will need to change things to match your directory structure, and a
few other items as well, but once working it is actually pretty
reliable.  

The script scrapes my DX Cluster, and when if is sees "trigger number"
of DX stations spotting US stations from zones 3, 4, or 5, for selected
bands, it increments a counter for each zone and band.

Once a "time period" it checks the increment counters to see what the
count is for a selected zone, and band, and if the count is larger than
a programmable trigger, if so, it announces that whatever band exceeded
the trigger is open using an MP3 file.  

It actually works quite well.  I am in the process of changing it to not
look at zone, but grid squares to better localize it.

Anyway, if you want a copy you are welcome to it, but please send email
to me NOT TO THE LIST.  

I am out of town now, so it will be a few days before I respond.  If you
improve the script, please return it to me as well...

-- 
Thanks and 73's,
Dave (NK7Z)
http://www.nk7z.net 

On Sat, 2018-06-02 at 12:28 -0500, Scott wrote:
> Wayne,
> 
> I'll give answering your question a try.  Hopefully I won't piss off 
> everyone... and it won't be too long.
> 
> 0).  First, monitor beacons or participate in the RBN for band openings 
> and then call CQ on open bands.  Heck, call CQ on "closed" bands... one 
> never knows.  I suspect there are more band openings than most would 
> admit or even know about and maybe we need more hams willing to set up 
> beacons.  I once copied a SSB qso of ON4UN and a stateside ham on 15m 
> when all the prop computer programs said 15m was closed.
> 
> 1).  CW ops should make MORE use of the computer... especially for 
> calling CQ.  Once a reply is heard switch to "manual" cw mode (this is 
> nothing new) AND adjust speed to station answering your CQ.  Nothing 
> worse than an experienced cw op who won't bother to "talk" to a slow 
> sending station... nothing.  It just sends the inexperienced cwop to 
> digital and/or ssb where someone will likely answer no matter the "speed".
> 
> 2)   CW ops need to not be prejudiced against keyboard sent code, 
> especially at slower speeds or even someone using cw decoding sw.  I 
> think younger hams might actually do more if there wasn't such "stink" 
> put on ops using a keyboard and decoding sw.  Besides you do want to get 
> younger hams interested in ham radio and especially CW... right?  And as 
> time goes on those young or even old keyboard cw warriors may or may not 
> learn to send with a paddle or a key but you've got to get them 
> interested in CW first.  For some, it's an age vs. memory issue 
> especially hams who started late in life.
> 
> 3)  Now to beat up the computer geeks.  Someone could set up a twitter 
> or gab account and advertise it to the ham community at large via 
> reflectors and use the account specifically for reporting band openings. 
>   Then you could get notified on the ubiquitous smart phone and who 
> knows maybe there is or will be soon a rig remote control app for your 
> phone.
> 
> 4)  Digital mode software can be a bear to configure.  Clearly there 
> should be just one or two "tabs" max to get it working quickly and all 
> the other program integration configuration is icing on the cake. 
> Complexity in a basic "getting it working" configuration is not good. 
> And how about making the program/app window and fonts larger for crying 
> out loud... I don't see as well as I used to and with the proliferation 
> of large monitors these programs are a pain to even see anymore.  While 
> this may increase digital ops I also believe that at some point even 
> some digital ops will want to try and learn cw.
> 
> 5)  Finally, I've noticed that a lot of younger millenials like "old 
> school" stuff from LP 33 records to radio.  IF you can get them 
> interested in Ham radio (a shameless plug for expanded tech privileges) 
> there's a good chance they'll eventually want to learn cw one way or 
> another.  The point is, more hams equals more chances for someone to 
> answer your cw CQ.
> 
> I doubt any of that helps much except maybe paragraph 3, but there it 
> is... thanks for letting me give it a shot.
> 
> Scott
> AD5HS
> 
> On 6/1/2018 10:46 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> ..
> 
> > Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. 
> > But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional 
> > gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave 
> > new highway. Ideas?
> > 
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: 

Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Scott]

Hi Lynn,

True and a very nice map it is indeed.  The issue I was trying to point 
out and not doing a very good job is that with gab or twitter the band 
opening data could be "pushed out" to subscribers in near real time, 
something needed for quick openings on 6m.  Besides who doesn't own a 
smart phone?  I suspect a large percentage of hams do and if they want 
basic band opening data that surely is one way to "get it out" quickly 
unless there is some huge server delay.   There may be something already 
out on the internet that does something like this I'm just not aware of it.


I could be wrong, but a quick look around WSPRnet.org did not show me 
anyway to get data except for me going there and digging it out. 
Nothing wrong with that, just not what I thought Wayne was looking for. 
I had thought I might help out WSPRnet in the near future as the idea of 
running a low power beacon has peaked my interest of late.


All the best and 73.

Scott
AD5HS

On 6/2/2018 1:07 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

Take a look at wsprnet.org.

No twitter, nothing funky, just a map showing stations that are 
transmitting and who hears them.


73 -- Lynn

On 6/2/2018 10:28 AM, Scott wrote:
3)  Now to beat up the computer geeks.  Someone could set up a twitter 
or gab account and advertise it to the ham community at large via 
reflectors and use the account specifically for reporting band 
openings.   Then you could get notified on the ubiquitous smart phone 
and who knows maybe there is or will be soon a rig remote control app 
for your phone.

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[rich hurd WC3T]

Hi Scott,

Five times "yes" - one for each of the points you raise.  I am a huge
proponent of "if everybody's listening, nobody's going to make a QSO."
I'm on the southern end of my fifties and I'm realizing now that although I
really love Morse Code, I seriously doubt that I'll be able to be as
productive as quickly as I can with things like computer assisted code
translation.

Heck, Wayne and company must have thought so too, or they wouldn't have
spent time implementing a decoder in their firmware, right?

Doesn't stop me from wanting to do it.  I just unboxed a Vibroplex single
lever paddle I bought on the Zed and I'm trying to make my way through
"Just Learn Morse Code" and LCWO.And yes, I know all about CW Academy
but I don't have the spare time to do it justice, so I am working on
alternative means.

Thanks for a refreshing, reassuring note of support.

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 1:28 PM Scott  wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> I'll give answering your question a try.  Hopefully I won't piss off
> everyone... and it won't be too long.
>
> 0).  First, monitor beacons or participate in the RBN for band openings
> and then call CQ on open bands.  Heck, call CQ on "closed" bands... one
> never knows.  I suspect there are more band openings than most would
> admit or even know about and maybe we need more hams willing to set up
> beacons.  I once copied a SSB qso of ON4UN and a stateside ham on 15m
> when all the prop computer programs said 15m was closed.
>
> 1).  CW ops should make MORE use of the computer... especially for
> calling CQ.  Once a reply is heard switch to "manual" cw mode (this is
> nothing new) AND adjust speed to station answering your CQ.  Nothing
> worse than an experienced cw op who won't bother to "talk" to a slow
> sending station... nothing.  It just sends the inexperienced cwop to
> digital and/or ssb where someone will likely answer no matter the "speed".
>
> 2)   CW ops need to not be prejudiced against keyboard sent code,
> especially at slower speeds or even someone using cw decoding sw.  I
> think younger hams might actually do more if there wasn't such "stink"
> put on ops using a keyboard and decoding sw.  Besides you do want to get
> younger hams interested in ham radio and especially CW... right?  And as
> time goes on those young or even old keyboard cw warriors may or may not
> learn to send with a paddle or a key but you've got to get them
> interested in CW first.  For some, it's an age vs. memory issue
> especially hams who started late in life.
>
> 3)  Now to beat up the computer geeks.  Someone could set up a twitter
> or gab account and advertise it to the ham community at large via
> reflectors and use the account specifically for reporting band openings.
>   Then you could get notified on the ubiquitous smart phone and who
> knows maybe there is or will be soon a rig remote control app for your
> phone.
>
> 4)  Digital mode software can be a bear to configure.  Clearly there
> should be just one or two "tabs" max to get it working quickly and all
> the other program integration configuration is icing on the cake.
> Complexity in a basic "getting it working" configuration is not good.
> And how about making the program/app window and fonts larger for crying
> out loud... I don't see as well as I used to and with the proliferation
> of large monitors these programs are a pain to even see anymore.  While
> this may increase digital ops I also believe that at some point even
> some digital ops will want to try and learn cw.
>
> 5)  Finally, I've noticed that a lot of younger millenials like "old
> school" stuff from LP 33 records to radio.  IF you can get them
> interested in Ham radio (a shameless plug for expanded tech privileges)
> there's a good chance they'll eventually want to learn cw one way or
> another.  The point is, more hams equals more chances for someone to
> answer your cw CQ.
>
> I doubt any of that helps much except maybe paragraph 3, but there it
> is... thanks for letting me give it a shot.
>
> Scott
> AD5HS
>
> On 6/1/2018 10:46 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> ..
>
> > Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO
> thing. But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional
> gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave
> new highway. Ideas?
> >
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> Message delivered to r...@wc3t.us



-- 
72,
Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
for Scouting
Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988  (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid:
*FN20is*

Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Take a look at wsprnet.org.

No twitter, nothing funky, just a map showing stations that are 
transmitting and who hears them.


73 -- Lynn

On 6/2/2018 10:28 AM, Scott wrote:
3)  Now to beat up the computer geeks.  Someone could set up a twitter 
or gab account and advertise it to the ham community at large via 
reflectors and use the account specifically for reporting band openings. 
  Then you could get notified on the ubiquitous smart phone and who 
knows maybe there is or will be soon a rig remote control app for your 
phone.

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Scott]

Wayne,

I'll give answering your question a try.  Hopefully I won't piss off 
everyone... and it won't be too long.


0).  First, monitor beacons or participate in the RBN for band openings 
and then call CQ on open bands.  Heck, call CQ on "closed" bands... one 
never knows.  I suspect there are more band openings than most would 
admit or even know about and maybe we need more hams willing to set up 
beacons.  I once copied a SSB qso of ON4UN and a stateside ham on 15m 
when all the prop computer programs said 15m was closed.


1).  CW ops should make MORE use of the computer... especially for 
calling CQ.  Once a reply is heard switch to "manual" cw mode (this is 
nothing new) AND adjust speed to station answering your CQ.  Nothing 
worse than an experienced cw op who won't bother to "talk" to a slow 
sending station... nothing.  It just sends the inexperienced cwop to 
digital and/or ssb where someone will likely answer no matter the "speed".


2)   CW ops need to not be prejudiced against keyboard sent code, 
especially at slower speeds or even someone using cw decoding sw.  I 
think younger hams might actually do more if there wasn't such "stink" 
put on ops using a keyboard and decoding sw.  Besides you do want to get 
younger hams interested in ham radio and especially CW... right?  And as 
time goes on those young or even old keyboard cw warriors may or may not 
learn to send with a paddle or a key but you've got to get them 
interested in CW first.  For some, it's an age vs. memory issue 
especially hams who started late in life.


3)  Now to beat up the computer geeks.  Someone could set up a twitter 
or gab account and advertise it to the ham community at large via 
reflectors and use the account specifically for reporting band openings. 
 Then you could get notified on the ubiquitous smart phone and who 
knows maybe there is or will be soon a rig remote control app for your 
phone.


4)  Digital mode software can be a bear to configure.  Clearly there 
should be just one or two "tabs" max to get it working quickly and all 
the other program integration configuration is icing on the cake. 
Complexity in a basic "getting it working" configuration is not good. 
And how about making the program/app window and fonts larger for crying 
out loud... I don't see as well as I used to and with the proliferation 
of large monitors these programs are a pain to even see anymore.  While 
this may increase digital ops I also believe that at some point even 
some digital ops will want to try and learn cw.


5)  Finally, I've noticed that a lot of younger millenials like "old 
school" stuff from LP 33 records to radio.  IF you can get them 
interested in Ham radio (a shameless plug for expanded tech privileges) 
there's a good chance they'll eventually want to learn cw one way or 
another.  The point is, more hams equals more chances for someone to 
answer your cw CQ.


I doubt any of that helps much except maybe paragraph 3, but there it 
is... thanks for letting me give it a shot.


Scott
AD5HS

On 6/1/2018 10:46 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
..


Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But 
I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional gear-grinding 
manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave new highway. 
Ideas?

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Edward R Cole]

I really ought not step into this discussion.  Obviously the Elecraft 
Reflector is a mainstay of CW ops.


I've been using digital modes one eme since 2003.  Back then the 
introductory program was JT44 which was supplanted by JT65 within a 
couple years.  Then many variants were done to address conditions on 
certain bands or certain prop modes.  WSJT was formed as the folder 
holding most of the new formats plus JT65.  MAP65 came out with 
ability to display 100-KHz of a band showing all signals and even 
decoding all of them to display activity over the sub-band.  Kind of 
like a P3 on steroids.


The two digit negative signal strength numbers  show SNR based on a 
bw of 2.5 KHz.  -18 is about the lowest level signal one is able to 
hear.  If one were using a 500-Hz CW filter the same signal SNR would 
be -11, or with 100-Hz super narrow bandpass the SNR = -4 dB which a 
good CW op should be able to copy (perhaps with a little difficulty).


It all started on 2m-eme, and for years mainly was about eme.  The 
"old guard" on eme grumbled and said it would never last.  Today 
there are maybe a couple dozen CW-only eme ops on 2m in the world; 
99% have gone digital.


FT8 (as I understand was created by Joe Taylor - K1JT for HF users in 
mind).  It started when a few tried JT65 on HF, then discovered 
WSPR.  Now FT8 is gaining in popularity on HF.


Whole world is moving on.  K3 and KX3 are SDR's.  Everyone on this 
list used a computer to read it.

"The times, they are changing"!

73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

As I said, I wasn't taking into account the differences in bandwidth, so 
my comment wasn't accurate.


Dave   AB7E


On 6/1/2018 11:28 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:
Referenced to the noise floor at what bandwidth? If you're claiming 
FT8 can copy sigs 20 dB below what you can copy on CW, that's nonsense 
and not even true for JT65. Anecdotal info from hardcore 6m guys 
(translate: real world results) say they're not working anything they 
couldn't copy on CW. It's a PITA with everyone crammed in a few kHz 
and a couple bad sigs wipe it out. In practice, it might be a few dB 
better than copy by ear with a narrow filter if you're decent at ESP 
level copy.


That said, I've been using JT65 on 6m EME for several years and love 
it. I'm not at all a luddite about this. Just trying to be realistic.


I sure hope the whole June VHF contest doesn't ignore CW & SSB, and 
try to squeeze onto 313 !


YMMV

73,
Josh W6XU

On 6/1/2018 4:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
that it is nominally capable of -20 db decoding.  >Referenced to the 
noise floor< 


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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Jim Brown]

If the signal to noise ratio is good enough the FT8 tones are clearly 
audible.


The S/N numbers for WSJT modes are referenced to a 2.8 kHz bandwidth. An 
FT8 signal sounds like a wobbly carrier. Obviously, when trying to copy 
a weak CW signal we're more likely to choose 250-400 Hz bandwidth.


73, Jim K9YC

On 6/1/2018 8:13 PM, Neil Zampella wrote:
Considering that FT8 is done with 8-tone frequency-shift keying (8-FSK) 
at 12000/1920 = 6.25 baud.   I'd like to know how you can get that tone 
in CW?


As far as the S/N threshold of the various WSJT-X  modes (from the 
protocol specs in the WSJT-X user guide):

FT8  : -21
JT4A         : -23
JT9A        : -27
JT65    : -25
QRA64A : -26
WSPR : -31


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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Josh Fiden]

Referenced to the noise floor at what bandwidth? If you're claiming FT8 
can copy sigs 20 dB below what you can copy on CW, that's nonsense and 
not even true for JT65. Anecdotal info from hardcore 6m guys (translate: 
real world results) say they're not working anything they couldn't copy 
on CW. It's a PITA with everyone crammed in a few kHz and a couple bad 
sigs wipe it out. In practice, it might be a few dB better than copy by 
ear with a narrow filter if you're decent at ESP level copy.


That said, I've been using JT65 on 6m EME for several years and love it. 
I'm not at all a luddite about this. Just trying to be realistic.


I sure hope the whole June VHF contest doesn't ignore CW & SSB, and try 
to squeeze onto 313 !


YMMV

73,
Josh W6XU

On 6/1/2018 4:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
that it is nominally capable of -20 db decoding.  >Referenced to the 
noise floor< 


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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Neil Zampella]

Considering that FT8 is done with 8-tone frequency-shift keying (8-FSK) 
at 12000/1920 = 6.25 baud.   I'd like to know how you can get that tone 
in CW?


As far as the S/N threshold of the various WSJT-X  modes (from the 
protocol specs in the WSJT-X user guide):

FT8  : -21
JT4A         : -23
JT9A        : -27
JT65    : -25
QRA64A : -26
WSPR : -31

More protocol information can be found in section 17: 
https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx-doc/wsjtx-main-1.9.1.html



Neil, KN3ILZ


On 6/1/2018 9:19 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

If you knew the code you could work that signal on CW.  Quicker too.

Wes  N7WS.

On 6/1/2018 2:07 PM, John Stengrevics wrote:
I worked D41CV on 6 meter FT8 a couple of weeks ago.  He was running 
15 watts and was -18dB here.  If that’s not sub-noise floor, I don’t 
know what is.


73,

John
WA1EAZ





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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

Ahh .. I see.   We're not talking comparable bandwidths here.  My bad.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 6/1/2018 7:27 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


Can you explain that?  I've done intelligibility tests and anything 
more than a db or so below the noise level is almost impossible to 
copy.  Speed of course has an impact, so I'm talking speeds in the 
range of 20-25 WPM.  It might be different at much slower speeds.


73,
Dave   AB7E




On 6/1/2018 4:52 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 6/1/2018 4:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
And of course CW is faster ... just 20 db or so less effective for 
weak signal reception.


I think the number is more like 6-10 dB, depending on the skill of 
the operator.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

Can you explain that?  I've done intelligibility tests and anything more 
than a db or so below the noise level is almost impossible to copy.  
Speed of course has an impact, so I'm talking speeds in the range of 
20-25 WPM.  It might be different at much slower speeds.


73,
Dave   AB7E




On 6/1/2018 4:52 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 6/1/2018 4:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
And of course CW is faster ... just 20 db or so less effective for 
weak signal reception.


I think the number is more like 6-10 dB, depending on the skill of the 
operator.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Bill Frantz]

In celebration of my 74th birthday, I'll try not to seem to be 
an old curmudgeon.


There are several issues that might be affecting the number of 
CW signals heard. One is the relative lack of CW skills in the 
general ham population. I'm a poster child for that lack of 
skill. I passed the 5 WPM test when I got my extra. Did that 
mean I could play in the 15 to 40 WPM world we see on the bands? 
Of course not.


I've been trying to improve my CW. I started by chasing some of 
the big DXpeditions. I got so I could recognize my CQ, call 
sign, and TU, which let know whether to press the AE6JV key or 
the 5NN TU key. My vocabulary expanded to recognize things like 
CQ EU etc. and avoid being a complete boor. I also started 
running contests in S mode, learning how to decode call signs 
and exchanges, usually only after many repeats. Now I even try 
checking into the weekly Elecraft net. Thanks for putting up 
with me Kevin.


I still like the digital modes. I fell in love with PSK31 after 
operating it a Field Day. It was a lot like computer chatting, 
which I had done as a part of my job in my last job before retirement.


Another is the kind of QSO operators want to have. I was quite 
surprised when one of the younger members of our club -- in his 
30s -- said he liked contesting because he didn't have to listen 
to old men talking about their medical problems. He is a good 
contester and regularly outscores me in contests. This kind of 
operator will be quite happy with FT8, or canned exchanges in CW 
and digital modes. I've met many of them on PSK, even when I try 
to indicate I'm up for a bit of a chat.


I got to really like the automatic features when I was in the 
depths of side effects from my cancer treatment. I could sit 
back in my chair and make contacts without having ot expend a 
lot of the energy I didn't have.


I do think the advertised 20-24 dB below the noise floor is a 
bit of crock, but not entirely wrong. If I understand the 
situation correctly, the noise is measured in a 3KHz band width 
while the signal is 50 Hz wide. That factor of 60 should be 
responsible for 17.8 dB of the advertised noise immunity of the 
mode. The other 2 to 6 dB is a real advantage over CW with the 
tightest K3 DSP bandwidth. (APF can do better, but dies when 
other signals, like DQRM, are near the desired signal.)


When I was operating portable with a barefoot KX3 in New 
Hampshire a month ago using FT8, I had real problems getting all 
that juicy DX in EU to answer me. Finding an open space in the 
band was hard. Finally I tried finding an open transmit window 
and calling CQ. The DX came to me, and I contacted a few ATNOs. 
I had to move frequently as other stations started transmitting 
in the same window I was using. It's always worth pausing to see 
if you still have the window. Here full break in CW has a real 
advantage. SSB has some of the same advantage because 
transmissions aren't synchronized, as they are in FT8.


To try to answer Wayne's question, perhaps setting up schedules 
using the Internet would help. Also calling CQ can help a lot. I 
was asked to test how 15M was holding up in preparation for 
Field Day. I found the band dead until I tried calling CQ. I 
didn't make many contacts, but calling CQ brought stations out 
of the woodwork including some DX.


I agree with Jim's comments about LotW. My truly spectacular 
LotW success was with the 5 FT8 out of state 6M DX contacts I 
made last new years eve. All are LotW confirmed. Out of 88 FT8 
contacts logged in this last trip to New Hampshire, 55 or 62.5% 
have been confirmed with LotW. Compare that with the CQ WPX CW 
contest last weekend. I logged 255 QSOs and have 80 LotW 
confirmations 31.4%). Of course, the WPX contest was quite 
recent, and more confirmations should trickle in. It is also 
almost certain that I blew copying some of the calls which would 
push down the number of confirmations.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 6/1/18 at 8:46 AM, n...@elecraft.com (Wayne Burdick) wrote:

At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, 
limited in scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by 
the zomboid army of switching power supplies oozing inexorably 
into my personal space.


Nope.
It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at 
the height of 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to 
one factor: the 24-hour intravenous rave that is FT-8.


Yeah, I get the whole 
sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But I’d 
like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional 
gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other 
on this brave new highway. Ideas?


Wayne
N6KR

-
Bill Frantz| Airline peanut bag: "Produced  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | in a facility that processes   | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | peanuts and other nuts." - Duh | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032

Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Wes Stewart]

If you knew the code you could work that signal on CW.  Quicker too.

Wes  N7WS.

On 6/1/2018 2:07 PM, John Stengrevics wrote:

I worked D41CV on 6 meter FT8 a couple of weeks ago.  He was running 15 watts 
and was -18dB here.  If that’s not sub-noise floor, I don’t know what is.

73,

John
WA1EAZ


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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Jim Brown]

On 6/1/2018 4:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
And of course CW is faster ... just 20 db or so less effective for weak 
signal reception.


I think the number is more like 6-10 dB, depending on the skill of the 
operator.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

Wrong.

FT8 is indeed a sub-noise floor mode like JT65.  Don know where you got 
the idea it isn't, but FT8 is actually an offshoot of JT65 except it 
sacrifices a few db for the sake of faster exchanges.  The official FT8 
documentation from K1JT, the creator of both, says that it is nominally 
capable of -20 db decoding.  >Referenced to the noise floor<


And of course CW is faster ... just 20 db or so less effective for weak 
signal reception.


Dave   AB7E

sent from my home computer where I can look up stuff first so I don't 
post erroneous claims




On 6/1/2018 2:03 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:

FT8 is *not* a "sub-noise floor" mode like JT65. You can complete faster on CW. 
It's great that there's so much activity, but far too many crap overdriven signals 
calling relentlessly.

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[kstover]

Just the opposite for me.
I make my living in front of a keyboards and four 27" monitors.
The absolute last thing I want to do when I get home or on the weekend is sit 
in front of the computer pounding function keys.
I do use a shack computer obviously but just for logging and such.
I miss the days when a DX contact wasn't a slam bam affair. You could actually 
have a conversation and maybe learn something.

I think it would be interesting for contest sponsors to ban technology for one 
year. No computer logging, no spotting networks, none of that stuff. Actually 
require a contact to last 2 minutes. I can hear the gagging now. If you can run 
SO2R without a computer doing the beam turning and radio switching and logging 
you are a FULL GROWN MAN AMONGST CHILDREN.

R. Kevin StoverAC0H

ARRL, FISTS, SKCC, NAQCC.
One of the guys that made sneakernet irrelevant, in my little corner of the 
world.
“If it doesn’t work the first time you push the button it won’t work the 
20th…Just stop.”

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of KENT TRIMBLE
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:51 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 
microjuggernaut

What is being overlooked in all of this discussion is that the bulk of today's 
ham population makes its living at a keyboard.

When the bulk of an eight-hour work-day is spent in front of a monitor, it 
should come as no shock that an entire generation will prefer making QSOs with 
keyboard-keys rather than telegraph-keys. For them it requires less skill, less 
time, and less patience . . . precisely the kind of activities most sought by 
millennials.

Everything on this earth evolves, including amateur radio, and evolution has 
never been straight-forward.  It explores, imagines, and experiments.  It 
leaves behind a trail of bad ideas, weird adaptions, and dead-end cul-de-sacs.  
At one time trilobites ruled the oceans.  The oceans did not change, but the 
trilobites went away.

My CW class on Saturday mornings has several IT guys who work for the State of 
Missouri.  They are fascinated by code ... not their kind of code ... Samuel 
F.B.'s kind of code.  They learned it mostly on their own and want to get 
better at it.  They bring in keying projects, they bring in paddle renditions, 
they bring in mini-programming accessories, they keep bugging us to schedule 
forays to the boonies so they can throw wires into trees and "play radio."  No 
one has yet told them such efforts take time, skill, and patience.  Apparently 
they don't care. Why?  Beats me.  Come Monday morning they're back in front of 
their monitors all day.

In Hiram Percy's house are many rooms.

73,

Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
Jefferson City, MO



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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[KENT TRIMBLE]

What is being overlooked in all of this discussion is that the bulk of 
today's ham population makes its living at a keyboard.


When the bulk of an eight-hour work-day is spent in front of a monitor, 
it should come as no shock that an entire generation will prefer making 
QSOs with keyboard-keys rather than telegraph-keys. For them it requires 
less skill, less time, and less patience . . . precisely the kind of 
activities most sought by millennials.


Everything on this earth evolves, including amateur radio, and evolution 
has never been straight-forward.  It explores, imagines, and 
experiments.  It leaves behind a trail of bad ideas, weird adaptions, 
and dead-end cul-de-sacs.  At one time trilobites ruled the oceans.  The 
oceans did not change, but the trilobites went away.


My CW class on Saturday mornings has several IT guys who work for the 
State of Missouri.  They are fascinated by code ... not their kind of 
code ... Samuel F.B.'s kind of code.  They learned it mostly on their 
own and want to get better at it.  They bring in keying projects, they 
bring in paddle renditions, they bring in mini-programming accessories, 
they keep bugging us to schedule forays to the boonies so they can throw 
wires into trees and "play radio."  No one has yet told them such 
efforts take time, skill, and patience.  Apparently they don't care.  
Why?  Beats me.  Come Monday morning they're back in front of their 
monitors all day.


In Hiram Percy's house are many rooms.

73,

Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
Jefferson City, MO



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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Michael Blake]

Bob, I did not remember that Chicken Little said that!

Michael Blake
k9...@mac.com 






> On Jun 1, 2018, at 4:48 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> Be it CW, RTTY, PSK, SSB,  JT65 or other modes, today's computer integration 
> into the ham shack as produced many automated contacts with little to no 
> personal intervention.   Where as one says FT-8 mode is used to rack up 
> countrieswhat about the automated CQ's from memory keyers in CW mode 
> with the follow up always being a 599 report, or RTTY contacts structured 
> with Function Keys for the exchange, and software which supports other like 
> modes.   Even SSB contacts with CQ's in the operators voice with digital 
> voice recorders will often prevail.   Yes, I know it is repetitive calling 
> and it is done to save the voice or fingers, but really, automated is 
> automated and the dreaded computer is the basis, ..not the FT-8 
> software.   As Chicken Little said..."it's everywhere, it's 
> everywhere."
> 
> Just wait until the upcoming Field Day.  The FT-8 operations, with operators 
> trying to modify the data exchange to comply with the reporting and 
> confirmation of contacts for Field Day exchange is surely to be a little more 
> than a "train wreck".   UGH! Banish the thoughts.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Randy Farmer]

What you say is true, and as a hard-core contester I take advantage of 
all the automation I can get to maximize my QSO rate.


The distinction is between transmitting and receiving. In receiving, the 
difference is that in CW and SSB my brain is an integral part of the 
process of getting the signal information from audio to log, no silicon 
required or desired. Development and maintenance of the skills required 
to do that accurately and efficiently are what I find most rewarding 
about operating. In that respect, I've been "geek free" since 1964.


73...
Randy, W8FN

On 6/1/2018 3:48 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
Be it CW, RTTY, PSK, SSB,  JT65 or other modes, today's computer 
integration into the ham shack as produced many automated contacts 
with little to no personal intervention.   Where as one says FT-8 mode 
is used to rack up countrieswhat about the automated CQ's from 
memory keyers in CW mode with the follow up always being a 599 report, 
or RTTY contacts structured with Function Keys for the exchange, and 
software which supports other like modes.   Even SSB contacts with 
CQ's in the operators voice with digital voice recorders will often 
prevail.   Yes, I know it is repetitive calling and it is done to save 
the voice or fingers, but really, automated is automated and the 
dreaded computer is the basis, ..not the FT-8 software.   
As Chicken Little said..."it's everywhere, it's everywhere."


Just wait until the upcoming Field Day.  The FT-8 operations, with 
operators trying to modify the data exchange to comply with the 
reporting and confirmation of contacts for Field Day exchange is 
surely to be a little more than a "train wreck".   UGH! Banish the 
thoughts.


73

Bob, K4TAX


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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[John Stengrevics]

I worked D41CV on 6 meter FT8 a couple of weeks ago.  He was running 15 watts 
and was -18dB here.  If that’s not sub-noise floor, I don’t know what is.

73,

John
WA1EAZ

> On Jun 1, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Josh Fiden  wrote:
> 
> FT8 is *not* a "sub-noise floor" mode like JT65. You can complete faster on 
> CW. It's great that there's so much activity, but far too many crap 
> overdriven signals calling relentlessly. 
> 
> 73
> Josh W6XU
> 
> Sent from my mobile device
> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Josh Fiden]

FT8 is *not* a "sub-noise floor" mode like JT65. You can complete faster on CW. 
It's great that there's so much activity, but far too many crap overdriven 
signals calling relentlessly. 

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Be it CW, RTTY, PSK, SSB,  JT65 or other modes, today's computer 
integration into the ham shack as produced many automated contacts with 
little to no personal intervention.   Where as one says FT-8 mode is 
used to rack up countrieswhat about the automated CQ's from 
memory keyers in CW mode with the follow up always being a 599 report, 
or RTTY contacts structured with Function Keys for the exchange, and 
software which supports other like modes.   Even SSB contacts with CQ's 
in the operators voice with digital voice recorders will often 
prevail.   Yes, I know it is repetitive calling and it is done to save 
the voice or fingers, but really, automated is automated and the dreaded 
computer is the basis, ..not the FT-8 software.   As Chicken 
Little said..."it's everywhere, it's everywhere."


Just wait until the upcoming Field Day.  The FT-8 operations, with 
operators trying to modify the data exchange to comply with the 
reporting and confirmation of contacts for Field Day exchange is surely 
to be a little more than a "train wreck".   UGH! Banish the thoughts.


73

Bob, K4TAX




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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Mike Parkes]

I miss Amtor! Long live ARQ modes. Of course the bands were in better shape
in those days.
Mike AB7RU

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018, 10:00 AM Al Lorona  wrote:

> I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able
> to find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was
> totally automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their
> logs to see what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When
> parody becomes reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that
> fictitious day appears to have finally arrived.
> FT8 is just a phase. It is the mode du jour, the next in a long parade of
> digital modes that stretches back to AMTOR and packet. This too, shall
> pass, to be replaced with the Next Big Mode, which in turn will pass and be
> replaced. In the meantime, there hasn't been a single CW signal in the
> morning on 40 meters so I can test out my new homebrew FD rig. It's very
> depressing.
> Al W6LX
>
>   From: Wayne Burdick 
>  To: Elecraft Reflector 
> Cc: "k...@yahoogroups.com" ;
> elecraft...@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 8:47 AM
>  Subject: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8
> microjuggernaut
>
> At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in
> scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of
> switching power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.
>
> Nope.
>
> It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of
> 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour
> intravenous rave that is FT-8.
>
> Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing.
> But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional
> gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave
> new highway. Ideas?
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
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>
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

I think it's way too simplistic to dismiss FT8 as being merely a phase.  
I haven't tried it yet, but it seems to me that FT8 contacts have 
similar appeal to folks who try to rack up as many countries or other 
entities as they can ... where having a chat isn't the main intent.  
I've made a ton of CW contacts where all I had to do was copy a callsign 
and push a button on my keyboard to send my info.  I doubt you can make 
a strong case that those were much different than an FT8 contact.


It is certainly likely that some other mode will eventually take it's 
place, but I don't see sub-noisefloor modes ever going away. They simply 
have too much benefit for hams with antenna and/or power restrictions.  
Besides, I could probably argue that exploring new modes is well within 
the spirit of ham radio ... something you seem to have forgotten.


Dave   AB7E



On 6/1/2018 9:59 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able to 
find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was totally 
automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their logs to see 
what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When parody becomes 
reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that fictitious day appears 
to have finally arrived.
FT8 is just a phase. It is the mode du jour, the next in a long parade of 
digital modes that stretches back to AMTOR and packet. This too, shall pass, to 
be replaced with the Next Big Mode, which in turn will pass and be replaced. In 
the meantime, there hasn't been a single CW signal in the morning on 40 meters 
so I can test out my new homebrew FD rig. It's very depressing.
Al W6LX

   From: Wayne Burdick 
  To: Elecraft Reflector 
Cc: "k...@yahoogroups.com" ; elecraft...@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 8:47 AM
  Subject: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 
microjuggernaut

At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of switching power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.


Nope.

It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of 2018 
Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour intravenous 
rave that is FT-8.

Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But 
I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional gear-grinding 
manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave new highway. 
Ideas?

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Jim Brown]

On 6/1/2018 9:59 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able to 
find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was totally 
automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their logs to see 
what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When parody becomes 
reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that fictitious day appears 
to have finally arrived.


I suspect you haven't used any of the WSJT modes. Operator skill and 
experience significantly increases the likelihood of completing QSOs, 
especially QSOs with stations that you want to work. Indeed, auto 
sequencing often gets in the way of that, responding to calls from 
locals when DX (or stations in rare grids) are calling you.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Carl Yaffey]

I usually check the CW area and the SSB area before hitting FT8. Sometimes call 
a few CQs. Crickets. . . . .

> On Jun 1, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in scale 
> by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of switching 
> power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.
> 
> Nope. 
> 
> It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of 
> 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour 
> intravenous rave that is FT-8.
> 
> Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But 
> I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional gear-grinding 
> manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave new highway. 
> Ideas?
> 
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
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Carl Yaffey  K8NU
Recording studio.
cyaffeyno_s...@gmail.com 
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.grassahol.com
http://www.bluesswing.com

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Tim N9PUZ]

I can appreciate the technology behind modes such as FT-8 but for me,
regardless of whether it be CW, Phone, or a digital mode a meaningful QSO
results in me knowing some small amount of information about another ham
that I didn't know otherwise. Clicking on a call sign and then, mostly
automatically, having the computers complete the QSO just doesn't get my
motor running.

Tim N9PUZ

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:59 AM, Al Lorona  wrote:

> I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able
> to find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was
> totally automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their
> logs to see what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When
> parody becomes reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that
> fictitious day appears to have finally arrived.
> FT8 is just a phase. It is the mode du jour, the next in a long parade of
> digital modes that stretches back to AMTOR and packet. This too, shall
> pass, to be replaced with the Next Big Mode, which in turn will pass and be
> replaced. In the meantime, there hasn't been a single CW signal in the
> morning on 40 meters so I can test out my new homebrew FD rig. It's very
> depressing.
> Al W6LX
>
>   From: Wayne Burdick 
>  To: Elecraft Reflector 
> Cc: "k...@yahoogroups.com" ;
> elecraft...@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 8:47 AM
>  Subject: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8
> microjuggernaut
>
> At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in
> scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of
> switching power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.
>
> Nope.
>
> It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of
> 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour
> intravenous rave that is FT-8.
>
> Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing.
> But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional
> gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave
> new highway. Ideas?
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
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> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Al Lorona]

I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able to 
find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was totally 
automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their logs to see 
what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When parody becomes 
reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that fictitious day appears 
to have finally arrived.
FT8 is just a phase. It is the mode du jour, the next in a long parade of 
digital modes that stretches back to AMTOR and packet. This too, shall pass, to 
be replaced with the Next Big Mode, which in turn will pass and be replaced. In 
the meantime, there hasn't been a single CW signal in the morning on 40 meters 
so I can test out my new homebrew FD rig. It's very depressing.
Al W6LX

  From: Wayne Burdick 
 To: Elecraft Reflector  
Cc: "k...@yahoogroups.com" ; elecraft...@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 8:47 AM
 Subject: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 
microjuggernaut
   
At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in scale by 
a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of switching power 
supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.

Nope. 

It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of 2018 
Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour intravenous 
rave that is FT-8.

Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But 
I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional gear-grinding 
manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave new highway. 
Ideas?

Wayne
N6KR

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