Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Bob N3MNT]

It could actually be the LED modules themselves.  Many of the cheap foreign
LED modules use very cheap components in their drive circuitry.  There are
very RF noisy and cover a wide bandwidth,  The RV industry switched to
interior LED modules in the last few years and there have been loads of
complaints of interference with radio and TV signals.   If you have a linear
power supply you can connect to drive the LEDS you can isolate the problem.



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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Yeah, Jim said he had actual smoke damage from his going up in flames and used 
a fire extinguisher. Guess I've been lucky over the years. 

After finding some brands of CFLs that are don't generate hash across the HF 
spectrum, I am just starting to experiment with LED replacements as the CFLs 
die. 

One trait of the CFLs that I miss in the LEDs is that CFLs take several seconds 
to come up to full brilliance. I found that much less jarring on the eyes, 
especially in a darkened room. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Robert Nobis [mailto:n7...@nobis.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 10:22 AM
To: Ron D'Eau Claire
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

Ron,

I have had two CFL’s fail that were well beyond a “puff of smoke”. Both were 
actually melted and charred black. They were from two different manufacturers. 
I also have had CFL’s simply quit after a few years, and the base of them was 
brown from overheating.

That is part of the reason why I converted all bulbs in my house to LED.

73

Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net


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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Jealous. Transported forward in time, he would have been like a kid in a
candy store in the midst of all our technology.

Guy K2AV

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> In California, at least, consumers are converting from incandescents and
> CFLs to LEDs so quickly that planned new power plants will be unnecessary.
> This is a Good Thing. Home Depot has massive displays of LED bulbs, which
> are now down to around $3 per (in the FunSize 3-pack). IKEA is even cheaper.
>
> I think everything in our house is now LED except for some candelabra-size
> 25-W bulbs in the dining room. My wife doesn't like the look of the LED
> replacements in this category, but eventually they, too will go. Then our
> electricity consumption due to lighting will be down by 84% for the entire
> house.
>
> Edison would have been amazed to put his hand on a cool 10-W LED bulb
> that's putting our just as much light as a hot 60-W incandescent. Or maybe
> he would have been jealous.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2016, at 3:55 PM, David Anderson  wrote:
>
> > I was just thinking that I had removed all of the CFL bulbs from my
> house, because I hate them, their horrid colour, their slow start up and
> that they do not last and smoke. Then tonight my wife called me to say that
> the hall light had stopped working, the last CFL in the house. No smoke,
> just dead. It has hardly been used in the years we have had it.
> >
> > I have replaced all my CFLs with Halogen clear bulbs (40 watts) which we
> can still get through some loophole, at least for now. I care not that they
> produce some heat as well as light, as it warms the house up who we have
> the lights on in the winter. I am stockpiling them.
> >
> > I have LEDs in the bathroom that don't appear to cause any noise,
> ironically the 12 V halogen ones before did because of the SMPSU that they
> used.
> >
> > I also have a Phillips LED lamp bulb in a table lamp that is totally RF
> quiet.
> >
> > 73 from David GM4JJJ
> >
> >> On 2 Feb 2016, at 17:44, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:
> >>
> >> That sounds like the CFL failed as it was designed to fail.
> >>
> >> CFLs draw more current as they age. Eventually the power supply is
> >> overwhelmed by the current demand and fails. All the CFLs I've seen use
> a
> >> tiny (1/8 or 1/16 watt) resistor as a fuse. Before anything else gets
> >> overloaded enough to fail, the little resistor acts as a fuse and opens.
> >> But, being a resistor, it fails like a resistor often with some smell
> and
> >> brief puff of smoke. I suppose it might be possible for a flame as the
> >> covering burns, but that should be inside the base enclosure. I've never
> >> seen anything but a small puff of smoke if I am looking in that
> direction
> >> when it goes.
> >>
> >> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

And it looks like its time to close this thread. Wow, 17 posts in less than 22 
hrs.  Time to let others recover from the email overload.


In general, please self moderate in the future.

73,
Eric
List Moderator
/elecraft.com/

On 2/2/2016 4:30 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

Jealous. Transported forward in time, he would have been like a kid in a
candy store in the midst of all our technology.

Guy K2AV

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:


In California, at least, consumers are converting from incandescents and
CFLs to LEDs so quickly that planned new power plants will be unnecessary.
This is a Good Thing. Home Depot has massive displays of LED bulbs, which
are now down to around $3 per (in the FunSize 3-pack). IKEA is even cheaper.

I think everything in our house is now LED except for some candelabra-size
25-W bulbs in the dining room. My wife doesn't like the look of the LED
replacements in this category, but eventually they, too will go. Then our
electricity consumption due to lighting will be down by 84% for the entire
house.

Edison would have been amazed to put his hand on a cool 10-W LED bulb
that's putting our just as much light as a hot 60-W incandescent. Or maybe
he would have been jealous.

Wayne
N6KR


On Feb 2, 2016, at 3:55 PM, David Anderson  wrote:


I was just thinking that I had removed all of the CFL bulbs from my

house, because I hate them, their horrid colour, their slow start up and
that they do not last and smoke. Then tonight my wife called me to say that
the hall light had stopped working, the last CFL in the house. No smoke,
just dead. It has hardly been used in the years we have had it.

I have replaced all my CFLs with Halogen clear bulbs (40 watts) which we

can still get through some loophole, at least for now. I care not that they
produce some heat as well as light, as it warms the house up who we have
the lights on in the winter. I am stockpiling them.

I have LEDs in the bathroom that don't appear to cause any noise,

ironically the 12 V halogen ones before did because of the SMPSU that they
used.

I also have a Phillips LED lamp bulb in a table lamp that is totally RF

quiet.

73 from David GM4JJJ


On 2 Feb 2016, at 17:44, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:

That sounds like the CFL failed as it was designed to fail.

CFLs draw more current as they age. Eventually the power supply is
overwhelmed by the current demand and fails. All the CFLs I've seen use

a

tiny (1/8 or 1/16 watt) resistor as a fuse. Before anything else gets
overloaded enough to fail, the little resistor acts as a fuse and opens.
But, being a resistor, it fails like a resistor often with some smell

and

brief puff of smoke. I suppose it might be possible for a flame as the
covering burns, but that should be inside the base enclosure. I've never
seen anything but a small puff of smoke if I am looking in that

direction

when it goes.

73, Ron AC7AC


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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Robert Nobis]

Ron,

I have had two CFL’s fail that were well beyond a “puff of smoke”. Both were 
actually melted and charred black. They were from two different manufacturers. 
I also have had CFL’s simply quit after a few years, and the base of them was 
brown from overheating.

That is part of the reason why I converted all bulbs in my house to LED.

73

Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net


> On Feb 2, 2016, at 10:44, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:
> 
> That sounds like the CFL failed as it was designed to fail.
> 
> CFLs draw more current as they age. Eventually the power supply is
> overwhelmed by the current demand and fails. All the CFLs I've seen use a
> tiny (1/8 or 1/16 watt) resistor as a fuse. Before anything else gets
> overloaded enough to fail, the little resistor acts as a fuse and opens.
> But, being a resistor, it fails like a resistor often with some smell and
> brief puff of smoke. I suppose it might be possible for a flame as the
> covering burns, but that should be inside the base enclosure. I've never
> seen anything but a small puff of smoke if I am looking in that direction
> when it goes. 
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> ... a couple of those so called "5000 hour" Chinese CFL's actually burned up
> (yes, smoke, fire and flames) 
> 
> Jim - W0EB
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Scott via Elecraft]

 
...and I'd add the cheap Chinese LED's are a serious issue.
 
Our garage door opener was randomly working during and after a recent  
kitchen remodel.
 
After befriending Google, used the KX3 with a snoop loop, and  found that 
switching on either of 2 banks of new LED's generated enough RF  to swamp the 
garage door opener receiver about 15 feet away.
 
At least in our case the KX3 and loop did a good job of identifying which  
LED fixtures were the offending culprits, but finding a listing of good vs.  
bad brands remains difficult, if anyone has seen one would love to know...
 
73 Scott ka9p

 
 
In a message dated 2/2/2016 8:30:33 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
w...@cox.net writes:

I  don't usually chime in on these threads, but not all LED's are  
culprits.  I had originally replaced all the incandescent bulbs in my  
house with the compact fluorescent (CFL) type.  My noise floor went  up a 
couple of dB when any of them were on, so after a couple of those so  
called "5000 hour" Chinese CFL's actually burned up (yes, smoke, fire  
and flames) I bit the bullet and replaced all the fluorescent lights in  
the house with LED's, including some ceiling fixtures that used 2 and 4  
foot tubes.  Even though I don't have any "light dimmers" in the  house, 
I bought the "dimmable" LED 60 and 75 watt equivalents and now my  noise 
when they on is exactly the same as when they are all off.   Getting rid 
of the CFL's and doing to the LED's dropped my noise floor to  whatever 
the atmospheric (plus whatever the neighbors generate) noise  floor is.

Sure glad those CFL's tried to burn down my house as it  caused me to get 
rid of them.  I was able to hear and work the South  Georgia VP8SGI 
station on 15 meters and he was only maybe S1 here.   Bad propagation to 
that part of the world from Kansas even with 500 watts  and a beam so I 
missed the South Sandwich part.  Never heard them  except on 30 meters 
and my antenna favors East/West and I swear some of  the people that 
worked them on 30 were so strong here that HAD to be using  more than the 
legal power limit on 30.

Jim -  W0EB
>
>
>
>On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 22:48 -0500,  johnpierce wrote:
>>  My kitchen, under cabinet lights, are  LEDs.  With those lights turned
>>  on my
>>   noise floor changes from -128db to -102db.  If the circuit is  changed
>>  to a
>>  different phase the noise  improves by 6db.  All of this at 7mhz and
>>   other
>>  higher bands.  Needless to say the AM broadcast  band is highly
>>  affected by
>>  the  LEDs.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Placing a type 31  core with three turn of the AC line feeding the LED
>>   power
>>  supply and a clamp on 31 core on the LED side of the  power supply
>>  provides
>>  no  improvement!  I do not have an oscilloscope to look at  the
>>  waveforms.
>>  But given what I have done,  why is there no improvement?  I was
>>   following
>>  recommendations provided by  NK7Z.
>>
>>


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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Jim Sheldon]

 I don't usually chime in on these threads, but not all LED's are 
culprits.  I had originally replaced all the incandescent bulbs in my 
house with the compact fluorescent (CFL) type.  My noise floor went up a 
couple of dB when any of them were on, so after a couple of those so 
called "5000 hour" Chinese CFL's actually burned up (yes, smoke, fire 
and flames) I bit the bullet and replaced all the fluorescent lights in 
the house with LED's, including some ceiling fixtures that used 2 and 4 
foot tubes.  Even though I don't have any "light dimmers" in the house, 
I bought the "dimmable" LED 60 and 75 watt equivalents and now my noise 
when they on is exactly the same as when they are all off.  Getting rid 
of the CFL's and doing to the LED's dropped my noise floor to whatever 
the atmospheric (plus whatever the neighbors generate) noise floor is.


Sure glad those CFL's tried to burn down my house as it caused me to get 
rid of them.  I was able to hear and work the South Georgia VP8SGI 
station on 15 meters and he was only maybe S1 here.  Bad propagation to 
that part of the world from Kansas even with 500 watts and a beam so I 
missed the South Sandwich part.  Never heard them except on 30 meters 
and my antenna favors East/West and I swear some of the people that 
worked them on 30 were so strong here that HAD to be using more than the 
legal power limit on 30.


Jim - W0EB




On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 22:48 -0500, johnpierce wrote:

 My kitchen, under cabinet lights, are LEDs.  With those lights turned
 on my
 noise floor changes from -128db to -102db.  If the circuit is changed
 to a
 different phase the noise improves by 6db.  All of this at 7mhz and
 other
 higher bands.  Needless to say the AM broadcast band is highly
 affected by
 the LEDs.



 Placing a type 31 core with three turn of the AC line feeding the LED
 power
 supply and a clamp on 31 core on the LED side of the power supply
 provides
 no improvement!  I do not have an oscilloscope to look at the
 waveforms.
 But given what I have done, why is there no improvement?  I was
 following
 recommendations provided by NK7Z.





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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Also, consider wrapping the PS in Aluminum Foil.  That may provide some 
degree of shielding.


On that point, I have two Direct TV receivers that were prone to 
changing channels, resetting, and such when I transmitted.  This was 
proven to be the broad RF input for the RF remote control portion of the 
receiver.   No amount of ferrite on the cables helped.   Even after they 
were switched  to IR Remote, no improvement.   Finally  I wrapped the 
units in Aluminum Foil leaving a small 1/2" window for the IR remote 
signal access.   Problem solved.


73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S - sn 10163

On 2/2/2016 8:04 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

Hi,
Jim is correct, replace it...  I had a neighbor, and I had several
ferrites on it, all with many many turns of cable, and got very little
positive result, replacing it gave me a positive result...  :)

Those things generate a horrendous amount of RFI, and the power cables
to the lights are nothing but antenna...  Consider how much reduction
you will need to get to your original noise floor.  If you must keep
the PS, then more turns is better.  Replacement is always preferable to
reduction techniques.



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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Robert Nobis]

Hi John,

Possibly the undercounted LEDs or their power supply are defective and should 
be replaced.  I have about 30 LED light bulbs of various types in my house and 
I have not experienced any issues with an increase in the noise floor.  

73,

Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net


> On Feb 1, 2016, at 20:48, johnpierce  wrote:
> 
> My kitchen, under cabinet lights, are LEDs.  With those lights turned on my
> noise floor changes from -128db to -102db.  If the circuit is changed to a
> different phase the noise improves by 6db.  All of this at 7mhz and other
> higher bands.  Needless to say the AM broadcast band is highly affected by
> the LEDs.
> 
> 
> 
> Placing a type 31 core with three turn of the AC line feeding the LED power
> supply and a clamp on 31 core on the LED side of the power supply provides
> no improvement!  I do not have an oscilloscope to look at the waveforms.
> But given what I have done, why is there no improvement?  I was following
> recommendations provided by NK7Z.
> 
> 
> 
> AD2F,  John
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

That sounds like the CFL failed as it was designed to fail.

CFLs draw more current as they age. Eventually the power supply is
overwhelmed by the current demand and fails. All the CFLs I've seen use a
tiny (1/8 or 1/16 watt) resistor as a fuse. Before anything else gets
overloaded enough to fail, the little resistor acts as a fuse and opens.
But, being a resistor, it fails like a resistor often with some smell and
brief puff of smoke. I suppose it might be possible for a flame as the
covering burns, but that should be inside the base enclosure. I've never
seen anything but a small puff of smoke if I am looking in that direction
when it goes. 

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
... a couple of those so called "5000 hour" Chinese CFL's actually burned up
(yes, smoke, fire and flames) 

Jim - W0EB

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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[David Anderson]

I was just thinking that I had removed all of the CFL bulbs from my house, 
because I hate them, their horrid colour, their slow start up and that they do 
not last and smoke. Then tonight my wife called me to say that the hall light 
had stopped working, the last CFL in the house. No smoke, just dead. It has 
hardly been used in the years we have had it.

I have replaced all my CFLs with Halogen clear bulbs (40 watts) which we can 
still get through some loophole, at least for now. I care not that they produce 
some heat as well as light, as it warms the house up who we have the lights on 
in the winter. I am stockpiling them.

 I have LEDs in the bathroom that don't appear to cause any noise, ironically 
the 12 V halogen ones before did because of the SMPSU that they used. 

I also have a Phillips LED lamp bulb in a table lamp that is totally RF quiet.

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 2 Feb 2016, at 17:44, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:
> 
> That sounds like the CFL failed as it was designed to fail.
> 
> CFLs draw more current as they age. Eventually the power supply is
> overwhelmed by the current demand and fails. All the CFLs I've seen use a
> tiny (1/8 or 1/16 watt) resistor as a fuse. Before anything else gets
> overloaded enough to fail, the little resistor acts as a fuse and opens.
> But, being a resistor, it fails like a resistor often with some smell and
> brief puff of smoke. I suppose it might be possible for a flame as the
> covering burns, but that should be inside the base enclosure. I've never
> seen anything but a small puff of smoke if I am looking in that direction
> when it goes. 
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> ... a couple of those so called "5000 hour" Chinese CFL's actually burned up
> (yes, smoke, fire and flames) 
> 
> Jim - W0EB
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Wayne Burdick]

In California, at least, consumers are converting from incandescents and CFLs 
to LEDs so quickly that planned new power plants will be unnecessary. This is a 
Good Thing. Home Depot has massive displays of LED bulbs, which are now down to 
around $3 per (in the FunSize 3-pack). IKEA is even cheaper.

I think everything in our house is now LED except for some candelabra-size 25-W 
bulbs in the dining room. My wife doesn't like the look of the LED replacements 
in this category, but eventually they, too will go. Then our electricity 
consumption due to lighting will be down by 84% for the entire house.

Edison would have been amazed to put his hand on a cool 10-W LED bulb that's 
putting our just as much light as a hot 60-W incandescent. Or maybe he would 
have been jealous.

Wayne
N6KR


On Feb 2, 2016, at 3:55 PM, David Anderson  wrote:

> I was just thinking that I had removed all of the CFL bulbs from my house, 
> because I hate them, their horrid colour, their slow start up and that they 
> do not last and smoke. Then tonight my wife called me to say that the hall 
> light had stopped working, the last CFL in the house. No smoke, just dead. It 
> has hardly been used in the years we have had it.
> 
> I have replaced all my CFLs with Halogen clear bulbs (40 watts) which we can 
> still get through some loophole, at least for now. I care not that they 
> produce some heat as well as light, as it warms the house up who we have the 
> lights on in the winter. I am stockpiling them.
> 
> I have LEDs in the bathroom that don't appear to cause any noise, ironically 
> the 12 V halogen ones before did because of the SMPSU that they used. 
> 
> I also have a Phillips LED lamp bulb in a table lamp that is totally RF quiet.
> 
> 73 from David GM4JJJ
> 
>> On 2 Feb 2016, at 17:44, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:
>> 
>> That sounds like the CFL failed as it was designed to fail.
>> 
>> CFLs draw more current as they age. Eventually the power supply is
>> overwhelmed by the current demand and fails. All the CFLs I've seen use a
>> tiny (1/8 or 1/16 watt) resistor as a fuse. Before anything else gets
>> overloaded enough to fail, the little resistor acts as a fuse and opens.
>> But, being a resistor, it fails like a resistor often with some smell and
>> brief puff of smoke. I suppose it might be possible for a flame as the
>> covering burns, but that should be inside the base enclosure. I've never
>> seen anything but a small puff of smoke if I am looking in that direction
>> when it goes. 
>> 
>> 73, Ron AC7AC


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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Dave Cole]

Hi,
Jim is correct, replace it...  I had a neighbor, and I had several
ferrites on it, all with many many turns of cable, and got very little
positive result, replacing it gave me a positive result...  :)  

Those things generate a horrendous amount of RFI, and the power cables
to the lights are nothing but antenna...  Consider how much reduction
you will need to get to your original noise floor.  If you must keep
the PS, then more turns is better.  Replacement is always preferable to
reduction techniques.
-- 
73's, and thanks,
Dave

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On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 22:48 -0500, johnpierce wrote:
> My kitchen, under cabinet lights, are LEDs.  With those lights turned
> on my
> noise floor changes from -128db to -102db.  If the circuit is changed
> to a
> different phase the noise improves by 6db.  All of this at 7mhz and
> other
> higher bands.  Needless to say the AM broadcast band is highly
> affected by
> the LEDs.
> 
>  
> 
> Placing a type 31 core with three turn of the AC line feeding the LED
> power
> supply and a clamp on 31 core on the LED side of the power supply
> provides
> no improvement!  I do not have an oscilloscope to look at the
> waveforms.
> But given what I have done, why is there no improvement?  I was
> following
> recommendations provided by NK7Z.
> 
>  
> 
> AD2F,  John
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,2/1/2016 7:48 PM, johnpierce wrote:

Placing a type 31 core with three turn of the AC line feeding the LED power
supply and a clamp on 31 core on the LED side of the power supply provides
no improvement!  I do not have an oscilloscope to look at the waveforms.
But given what I have done, why is there no improvement?


You don't have nearly enough turns. Study k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

But -- a FAR better solution is to replace the power supply, which is 
almost certainly a switching p/s, with a linear supply have the same 
voltage and current ratings.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

As Dave, NK7Z stated in part 2:  "If I have a RF generating wall wart, 
it is best to remove it and replace it with one that does not generate 
RFI, not just put ferrite material on it."


From this and your description, I would speculate the power supply is 
the guilty party that is creating the RFI and it should be replaced.  
Case and point, I went through three different chargers for my HP laptop 
before I found one that didn't create RFI issues. And note too, they 
were all "certified" according to the labeling on their cases.


73
Bob, K4TAX



On 2/1/2016 9:48 PM, johnpierce wrote:

My kitchen, under cabinet lights, are LEDs.  With those lights turned on my
noise floor changes from -128db to -102db.  If the circuit is changed to a
different phase the noise improves by 6db.  All of this at 7mhz and other
higher bands.  Needless to say the AM broadcast band is highly affected by
the LEDs.

  


Placing a type 31 core with three turn of the AC line feeding the LED power
supply and a clamp on 31 core on the LED side of the power supply provides
no improvement!  I do not have an oscilloscope to look at the waveforms.
But given what I have done, why is there no improvement?  I was following
recommendations provided by NK7Z.

  


AD2F,  John

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Re: [Elecraft] Noise from LEDs

[Matthew Cook]

John,

That tells you that the noise from the LED power supply is differential
noise and not common mode.  You might find this URL helpful, just focus on
the pictures on the first page.

http://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/products/emc/emifil/knowhow/26to30.ashx

Figuring out what type of noise you're dealing with is the first step to
reducing it.   You might find it easier to replace the LED driver you're
using with another unit and see if you get an improvement.

73

Matthew
VK5ZM

On 2 February 2016 at 14:18, johnpierce  wrote:

> My kitchen, under cabinet lights, are LEDs.  With those lights turned on my
> noise floor changes from -128db to -102db.  If the circuit is changed to a
> different phase the noise improves by 6db.  All of this at 7mhz and other
> higher bands.  Needless to say the AM broadcast band is highly affected by
> the LEDs.
>
>
>
> Placing a type 31 core with three turn of the AC line feeding the LED power
> supply and a clamp on 31 core on the LED side of the power supply provides
> no improvement!  I do not have an oscilloscope to look at the waveforms.
> But given what I have done, why is there no improvement?  I was following
> recommendations provided by NK7Z.
>
>
>
> AD2F,  John
>
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>
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