Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
Doug, The setup with CW Skimmer is about the same as for LP-Pan. CW Skimmer is only the software, and it needs a baseband signal having I/Q outputs to operate. Such a signal can be obtained from LP-Pan, or a Softrock receiver, or a variety of other SDR devices that provide I/Q signals to the soundcard inputs. I also note that there is a slight inconsistency between those "bulleted features" and the P3 manual. The manual states that its INPUT should come from a buffered IF output on the transceiver, however the P3 OUT signal comes from a 3 dB splitter - it apparently is not separately buffered in the P3. 73, Don W3FPR On 8/28/2011 5:51 PM, DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote: > Buffered IF output to drive other equipment (CW Skimmer etc.) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
Hi, Doug. It cannot be done without the addition of some other SDR hardware, such as an LP-Pan or SDR-IQ or Softrock. I publicly, privately, and unsuccessfully lobbied for well over six months prior to the introduction of the P3 for Elecraft to include buffered I/Q outputs in it so that it could be used with third party SDR software like CW Skimmer. The fact that it doesn't is why I don't own one and instead bought an LP-Pan. There are so many interesting things that can be accomplished with SDR applications that I don't want to be without that capability, and in my opinion buying two sets of hardware to do essentially the same thing is an unnecessary redundancy. The upcoming KX3 will have buffered I/Q outputs, though, so clearly it could have been accomplished without undue cost adders. In my opinion, it would have made far more sense to include it in the P3. 73, Dave AB7E On 8/28/2011 2:51 PM, DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote: > I have noted on the P3 panadapter page from Elecraft, that one of the > "features" or uses is cited as > > http://www.elecraft.com/P3/p3.htm (bullet #11) > Buffered IF output to drive other equipment (CW Skimmer etc.) > > Can anyone describe for me just how this is specifically accomplished for > use with Skimmer? I don't see any references to "how to hook it up with > Skimmer" anywhere in the P3 user's manual, while I see a lot of > documentation for "how to" with LP-Pan. > > Thanks, > de Doug KR2Q > > K3 SN: 295, 822 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
Don: I recently had a question from a prospective customer for a Z1B buffer amplifier about the need for additional isolation if a Softrock is used with the P3's splitter IF output. I can't find a spec for the P3's isolation between the IF output port and the IF Input, but 30 dB isn't a bad estimate for a 3 dB hybrid splitter. Typical local oscillator leakage out of a Softrock is -40 dBm, so a -70 dBm signal (approximately) will be injected into the P3's input if a Softrock is connected to the P3's IF out port. This will appear as a spurious pip on the P3's display at around -70 dBm. The LPPan has isolation and it's leakage is not a problem when used in this fashion. But, I believe a Softrock will require additional isolation, on the order of 60 dB or so, in order to be useful without injecting a spurious pip into the P3. Jack K8ZOA On 8/28/2011 7:41 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > Doug, > > The setup with CW Skimmer is about the same as for LP-Pan. CW Skimmer > is only the software, and it needs a baseband signal having I/Q outputs > to operate. Such a signal can be obtained from LP-Pan, or a Softrock > receiver, or a variety of other SDR devices that provide I/Q signals to > the soundcard inputs. > > I also note that there is a slight inconsistency between those "bulleted > features" and the P3 manual. > The manual states that its INPUT should come from a buffered IF output > on the transceiver, however the P3 OUT signal comes from a 3 dB splitter > - it apparently is not separately buffered in the P3. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > On 8/28/2011 5:51 PM, DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote: >> Buffered IF output to drive other equipment (CW Skimmer etc.) > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
Jack, Thanks for that information. I was not thinking about the P3 display. Harmful injection into the K3 would be no problem because it has a buffered output IF output, but you are correct, the Softrock LO will produce a spur on the P3 display even if it does not get into the K3 IF. 73, Don W3FPR On 8/28/2011 8:42 PM, Jack Smith wrote: > Don: > > I recently had a question from a prospective customer for a Z1B > buffer amplifier about the need for additional isolation if a Softrock > is used with the P3's splitter IF output. > > I can't find a spec for the P3's isolation between the IF output port > and the IF Input, but 30 dB isn't a bad estimate for a 3 dB hybrid > splitter. > > Typical local oscillator leakage out of a Softrock is -40 dBm, so a -70 > dBm signal (approximately) will be injected into the P3's input if a > Softrock is connected to the P3's IF out port. This will appear as a > spurious pip on the P3's display at around -70 dBm. > > The LPPan has isolation and it's leakage is not a problem when used in > this fashion. But, I believe a Softrock will require additional > isolation, on the order of 60 dB or so, in order to be useful without > injecting a spurious pip into the P3. > > Jack K8ZOA > > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
> The upcoming KX3 will have buffered I/Q outputs, though, so clearly > it could have been accomplished without undue cost adders. In my > opinion, it would have made far more sense to include it in the P3. The circuit of the P3 and the KX3 are massively different. If you had bothered to read the P3 manual and study the block diagram/circuit description you would not have made such a ridiculous statement. The P3 does not create audio internally *at all* - to generate I/Q would require essentially duplicating the P3's entire "IF" along with a separate controller to maintain independent tracking frequency control, an independent "wideband" I/Q audio output and digital to analog converters. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/28/2011 8:08 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > > Hi, Doug. > > It cannot be done without the addition of some other SDR hardware, such > as an LP-Pan or SDR-IQ or Softrock. > > I publicly, privately, and unsuccessfully lobbied for well over six > months prior to the introduction of the P3 for Elecraft to include > buffered I/Q outputs in it so that it could be used with third party SDR > software like CW Skimmer. The fact that it doesn't is why I don't own > one and instead bought an LP-Pan. There are so many interesting things > that can be accomplished with SDR applications that I don't want to be > without that capability, and in my opinion buying two sets of hardware > to do essentially the same thing is an unnecessary redundancy. > > The upcoming KX3 will have buffered I/Q outputs, though, so clearly it > could have been accomplished without undue cost adders. In my opinion, > it would have made far more sense to include it in the P3. > > 73, > Dave AB7E > > > > > On 8/28/2011 2:51 PM, DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote: >> I have noted on the P3 panadapter page from Elecraft, that one of the >> "features" or uses is cited as >> >> http://www.elecraft.com/P3/p3.htm (bullet #11) >> Buffered IF output to drive other equipment (CW Skimmer etc.) >> >> Can anyone describe for me just how this is specifically accomplished for >> use with Skimmer? I don't see any references to "how to hook it up with >> Skimmer" anywhere in the P3 user's manual, while I see a lot of >> documentation for "how to" with LP-Pan. >> >> Thanks, >> de Doug KR2Q >> >> K3 SN: 295, 822 > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
>> Dave AB7E: > I publicly, privately, and unsuccessfully lobbied for well over six > months prior to the introduction of the P3 for Elecraft to include > buffered I/Q outputs in it so that it could be used with third party SDR > software like CW Skimmer. This was brought few times already and pretty much was black holed by Elecraft. The reason is that too much need to be done in hardware and software for pretty little value added, plus, I am sure it also would increase P3 price dramatically. But there is a "workaround"! I discovered Reversed Beacon Network and bunch of nice people who actually put very nice SDRs with Skimmer online and report on DX cluster every station that did CQ or TEST in their CW transmission. I use N1MM as my rig control software and it has band maps where all the cluster stations appear as they are reported. It is almost like having your own skimmer without all the hassle! 73, Igor, N1YX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
OK ... I was wrong about how easy it would be to do. I still find it difficult to believe that any of us should need two different pieces of hardware to accomplish what is basically the same job. Dave AB7E On 8/28/2011 6:22 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > >> The upcoming KX3 will have buffered I/Q outputs, though, so clearly >> it could have been accomplished without undue cost adders. In my >> opinion, it would have made far more sense to include it in the P3. > > The circuit of the P3 and the KX3 are massively different. If you had > bothered to read the P3 manual and study the block diagram/circuit > description you would not have made such a ridiculous statement. > > The P3 does not create audio internally *at all* - to generate I/Q > would require essentially duplicating the P3's entire "IF" along > with a separate controller to maintain independent tracking frequency > control, an independent "wideband" I/Q audio output and digital to > analog converters. > > 73, > >... Joe, W4TV > > > > On 8/28/2011 8:08 PM, David Gilbert wrote: >> >> Hi, Doug. >> >> It cannot be done without the addition of some other SDR hardware, such >> as an LP-Pan or SDR-IQ or Softrock. >> >> I publicly, privately, and unsuccessfully lobbied for well over six >> months prior to the introduction of the P3 for Elecraft to include >> buffered I/Q outputs in it so that it could be used with third party SDR >> software like CW Skimmer. The fact that it doesn't is why I don't own >> one and instead bought an LP-Pan. There are so many interesting things >> that can be accomplished with SDR applications that I don't want to be >> without that capability, and in my opinion buying two sets of hardware >> to do essentially the same thing is an unnecessary redundancy. >> >> The upcoming KX3 will have buffered I/Q outputs, though, so clearly it >> could have been accomplished without undue cost adders. In my opinion, >> it would have made far more sense to include it in the P3. >> >> 73, >> Dave AB7E >> >> >> >> >> On 8/28/2011 2:51 PM, DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote: >>> I have noted on the P3 panadapter page from Elecraft, that one of the >>> "features" or uses is cited as >>> >>> http://www.elecraft.com/P3/p3.htm (bullet #11) >>> Buffered IF output to drive other equipment (CW Skimmer etc.) >>> >>> Can anyone describe for me just how this is specifically >>> accomplished for >>> use with Skimmer? I don't see any references to "how to hook it up >>> with >>> Skimmer" anywhere in the P3 user's manual, while I see a lot of >>> documentation for "how to" with LP-Pan. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> de Doug KR2Q >>> >>> K3 SN: 295, 822 >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
One is enough. If skimmer is really needed, and you want the panadapter and the ability to drive various programs, you get LP-Pan instead of a P3. A P3 was made so someone with ONLY a K3 and a P3, WITHOUT a PC, could have a panadapter. The P3 was not designed as a do-all for all things SDR. Elecraft may get around to some add-ons, like IQ output from a P3 or some such, but those are business decisions. A K3 had a very clear, specific intention to begin with, which it brought to life very nicely. 73, Guy. On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 2:34 AM, David Gilbert wrote: > > > OK ... I was wrong about how easy it would be to do. I still find it > difficult to believe that any of us should need two different pieces of > hardware to accomplish what is basically the same job. > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 8/28/2011 6:22 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > > >> The upcoming KX3 will have buffered I/Q outputs, though, so clearly > >> it could have been accomplished without undue cost adders. In my > >> opinion, it would have made far more sense to include it in the P3. > > > > The circuit of the P3 and the KX3 are massively different. If you had > > bothered to read the P3 manual and study the block diagram/circuit > > description you would not have made such a ridiculous statement. > > > > The P3 does not create audio internally *at all* - to generate I/Q > > would require essentially duplicating the P3's entire "IF" along > > with a separate controller to maintain independent tracking frequency > > control, an independent "wideband" I/Q audio output and digital to > > analog converters. > > > > 73, > > > >... Joe, W4TV > > > > > > > > On 8/28/2011 8:08 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > >> > >> Hi, Doug. > >> > >> It cannot be done without the addition of some other SDR hardware, such > >> as an LP-Pan or SDR-IQ or Softrock. > >> > >> I publicly, privately, and unsuccessfully lobbied for well over six > >> months prior to the introduction of the P3 for Elecraft to include > >> buffered I/Q outputs in it so that it could be used with third party SDR > >> software like CW Skimmer. The fact that it doesn't is why I don't own > >> one and instead bought an LP-Pan. There are so many interesting things > >> that can be accomplished with SDR applications that I don't want to be > >> without that capability, and in my opinion buying two sets of hardware > >> to do essentially the same thing is an unnecessary redundancy. > >> > >> The upcoming KX3 will have buffered I/Q outputs, though, so clearly it > >> could have been accomplished without undue cost adders. In my opinion, > >> it would have made far more sense to include it in the P3. > >> > >> 73, > >> Dave AB7E > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 8/28/2011 2:51 PM, DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote: > >>> I have noted on the P3 panadapter page from Elecraft, that one of the > >>> "features" or uses is cited as > >>> > >>> http://www.elecraft.com/P3/p3.htm (bullet #11) > >>> Buffered IF output to drive other equipment (CW Skimmer etc.) > >>> > >>> Can anyone describe for me just how this is specifically > >>> accomplished for > >>> use with Skimmer? I don't see any references to "how to hook it up > >>> with > >>> Skimmer" anywhere in the P3 user's manual, while I see a lot of > >>> documentation for "how to" with LP-Pan. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> de Doug KR2Q > >>> > >>> K3 SN: 295, 822 > >> __ > >> Elecraft mailing list > >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > >> > >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > >> > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
Correct Jack. Just a couple additional comments... LP-PAN has more than enough isolation, but we recommend the optional preamp (mounts inside LP-PAN) to overcome the total losses of the K3 buffer and the hybrid splitter in the P3. FWIW, I have measured the isolation of the P3 splitter, and it is considerably lower than 30dB. If using a SoftRock, I would consider it imperative to use a Z1 or similar buffer. It would also make sense to use one of your low noise preamps ahead of the Z1 if weak signal decoding in CW Skimmer is important. I would set the gain of the preamp at about 10dB, and the buffer at about 0dB. 73, Larry N8LP On 8/29/2011 12:00 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote: > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 20:42:04 -0400 > From: Jack Smith > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer > To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Message-ID:<4e5ae05c.1020...@cliftonlaboratories.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Don: > > I recently had a question from a prospective customer for a Z1B > buffer amplifier about the need for additional isolation if a Softrock > is used with the P3's splitter IF output. > > I can't find a spec for the P3's isolation between the IF output port > and the IF Input, but 30 dB isn't a bad estimate for a 3 dB hybrid > splitter. > > Typical local oscillator leakage out of a Softrock is -40 dBm, so a -70 > dBm signal (approximately) will be injected into the P3's input if a > Softrock is connected to the P3's IF out port. This will appear as a > spurious pip on the P3's display at around -70 dBm. > > The LPPan has isolation and it's leakage is not a problem when used in > this fashion. But, I believe a Softrock will require additional > isolation, on the order of 60 dB or so, in order to be useful without > injecting a spurious pip into the P3. > > Jack K8ZOA > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
After a lot of research and questions to Elecraft and others, I decided to go with two LP-Pan for my dual-polarity diversity-Rx system that is also called an adaptive polarity system. I chose the install the LP internal preamp option since I will be doing eme level signals. The LP-Pan interface nicely with the emu0202 soundcard for single receiver work and with the Delta-44 for dual receiver tasks. In the later DSP is done by Linrad sw fed by the Delta-44. details with block diagram: http://www.kl7uw.com/LINRAD.htm I outline how I slaved one of the LP-Pan to the xosc in the other so they would be phase locked together, and how I exported the IF from the sub-Rx in the K3. 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] using P3 and Skimmer
Certainly looks good from here 73, Guy. On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Edward R. Cole wrote: > After a lot of research and questions to Elecraft and others, I > decided to go with two LP-Pan for my dual-polarity diversity-Rx > system that is also called an adaptive polarity system. > > I chose the install the LP internal preamp option since I will be > doing eme level signals. The LP-Pan interface nicely with the > emu0202 soundcard for single receiver work and with the Delta-44 for > dual receiver tasks. In the later DSP is done by Linrad sw fed by > the Delta-44. details with block diagram: > http://www.kl7uw.com/LINRAD.htm > > I outline how I slaved one of the LP-Pan to the xosc in the other so > they would be phase locked together, and how I exported the IF from > the sub-Rx in the K3. > > > 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 > == > BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com > EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-? > DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com > == > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
