Re: Measurement uncertainties for voltage measurement
I read in !emc-pstc that Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@bocedwards.com wrote (in E1BA0362B28ED211A1E80008C71EA3060206FDB3@z- 160-100-30-252.est.ibm.com) about 'Measurement uncertainties for voltage measurement' on Wed, 24 Sep 2003: All measurements are less than 15V DC. How much less and to how many significant figures? If this is DC, the only obscure source of uncertainty that springs to mind is thermoelectric voltage, which may be tens of microvolts. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Measurement uncertainties for voltage measurement
Ian, I am assuming you are connecting the reference source to the calibrated meter and to the meter to be calibrated (DUT). I am also assuming that the reference is a variable voltage source covering the range you need to calibrate. Draw a diagram of the system and there and list the parts and the errors. Some errors will be systematic (known) and other errors are random. Errors: reference source, meter, leads, added noise, and temperature, time. Depending on what has a lower traceable uncertainty, the source or the meter, the calibration uncertainty will revolve around that piece. Say the source is not traceable but the meter is. Then the starting point is the uncertainty of the meter. This is a random error. The leads affect the measurement in a systematic way. There is the voltage drop and a thermally generated offset voltage. The voltage drop of the leads will most likely be in the nanovolt range. Since this is a systematic error you can add or subtract it from your measurement as needed. Same thing with the thermal voltage- this will be in the tens of microvolt range. Unless you are calibrating a 6-1/2 digit meter at low voltages your calibration uncertainty becomes the uncertainty of the calibrated meter. Is the lab in the temperature range in which the calibrated meter spec is valid? The next part is what is the confidence level of your calibration? Most meters do not specify if the spec is for 2 sigma, 3 sigm! a or what. Fluke for example, uses 2.6 sigma. So if they say the accuracy is 0.0026% then the one-sigma accuracy is 0.001%. Now you need to decide if you need a guardband. The rule-of-thumb is if the measurement equipment spec exceeds the spec of the gear being measured by 4X (4:1 TUR) then no guardband is needed. If you don't have a 4:1 TUR (Test Uncertainty Ratio) you can still do the cal but you will need guardbands. But enough rambling. Here is a link that says it better than I can: http://metrologyforum.tm.agilent.com/uncert.shtml Dave Cuthbert Micron Technology From: Gordon,Ian [mailto:ian.gor...@bocedwards.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 9:44 AM To: 'IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP' Subject: Measurement uncertainties for voltage measurement Everyone, This may seem to be a little out of the groups remit but someone may have had experience of this. I am trying to determine the measurement uncertainty associated with calibrating an instrument which is essentially a voltmeter. This is done using a reference voltage source and a second, calibrated voltmeter. Does anyone have any suggestions as to possible sources of uncertainty of measurement in this arrangement? Ideally, someone will know of an on-line spreadsheet which I may use. All measurements are less than 15V DC. Thanks Ian Gordon _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Ethernet transformer that meets 60950 basic insulation requirements
Hi Someone on the list was asking a week or so ago about an ethernet transformer that meets the 60950 basic insulation requirements. Forgive me, my brain is little and I forgot who. I have the information on the part, so whoever it was, please email me and I will send it to you. Regards Doug Beckwith Mitel Networks This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Measurement uncertainties for voltage measurement
Everyone, This may seem to be a little out of the groups remit but someone may have had experience of this. I am trying to determine the measurement uncertainty associated with calibrating an instrument which is essentially a voltmeter. This is done using a reference voltage source and a second, calibrated voltmeter. Does anyone have any suggestions as to possible sources of uncertainty of measurement in this arrangement? Ideally, someone will know of an on-line spreadsheet which I may use. All measurements are less than 15V DC. Thanks Ian Gordon _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6
Why not build an unregulated linear power supply out of parts from Radio Shack? Or buy a cheap 12 Volt lead-acid battery 1 or 2 Amp trickle charger and put a filter cap on the output. As long as it is unregulated, it should not respond in any anomalous fashion to EMI. From: Chris Chileshe chris.chile...@ultronics.com Reply-To: Chris Chileshe chris.chile...@ultronics.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:33:29 +0100 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6 Group, After quite a struggle to get a product through conducted immunity tests (clamp method), I finally discovered that the weak link in the chain was in fact my laboratory power supply which I have been taking along with me to a nearby test house. The problem remained undetected for a number of reasons, not least that I had used the same setup before at a different test house using their PSU ( Solartron ASxxx) and had better results, but mostly because we were using a small chamber dedicated to conducted immunity tests and using a camera to monitor the behaviour of the EUT behind closed doors and not keeping an eye on the PSU. When we eventually tracked the anomalous behaviour of the EUT to the PSU, we tried LISNs and a different PSU both of which improved the test results significantly but the outcome was still not good enough from a product compliance point of view. Question 1: Is anyone aware of a power supply suitable for this type of testing? The EUT draws a maximum of 30mA at 12VDC. I have been unable to find any Solartron PSUs on the web; probably long discontinued. Question 2: Has anyone tried to build a filter for this sort of thing and would this be the way to go? Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - UK (O.O.O.) This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Safety Standards Comparison
Hi Reg - 60950, in its various forms, is the safety standard for Information Technology Equipment. IEC 60950 = 'root' standard. UL60950 = IEC 60950 + US / Canadian national differences. EN 60950 = IEC 60950 + national deviations of all EU/EFTA countries. IEC 60529 is a standard for determining the relative environmental protection offered by electrical enclosures. This is not a Taiwanese national standard, although it is accepted in Taiwan, when appropriate. IEC 60529 lays out the verification test methods for assigning an 'IP Code' - IP standing for Ingress Protection, and meaning the degree of protection against the ingress of solid objects and water. The two have nothing in common, really; however, both can apply to any particular product. For example, if your Information Technology Equipment product is to be used out-of-doors, it should have a minimum IP rating of IPx4, meaning that the enclosure protects the internal electronics from exposure to water splashed against the enclosure from any direction. 60950 Annex T refers to IEC 60529 for guidance on the protection against ingress of water. IEC stands for International Electrotechnical Commission. The International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) is the leading global organization that prepares and publishes international standards for all electrical, electronic and related technologies. IEC standards are often adopted as national standards. Best regards, Doug Massey Product Safety Engineer Advanced Compliance Solutions Ph. (770) 831-8048 FAX (770) 831-8598 Visit our web home at http://www.acstestlab.com From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [ mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Reginald Henry Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 8:34 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Safety Standards Comparison Group, SAFETY: EN60950 vs. IEC60529 (Taiwan ) standard. Has anyone here worked with these two standards enough to give me the basic differences and similarities between the two ? Thanks in advance Reg Henry This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6
I read in !emc-pstc that Chris Chileshe chris.chile...@ultronics.com wrote (in 01c3827e.ebde2400.chris.chile...@ultronics.com) about 'DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6' on Wed, 24 Sep 2003: Question 1: Is anyone aware of a power supply suitable for this type of testing? The EUT draws a maximum of 30mA at 12VDC. I have been unable to find any Solartron PSUs on the web; probably long discontinued. I'm not surprised. The AS series had germanium transistors, I think. Question 2: Has anyone tried to build a filter for this sort of thing and would this be the way to go? What effect did the power supply have on the immunity? It's difficult to know with no data what a simple analog power supply would do. One would certainly need to know that in order to determine whether a filter was feasible and the optimum solution. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Safety Standards Comparison
Group, Thank you all for the information. I got it ! RH From: Sam Davis [mailto:sda...@ptitest.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:24 AM To: Reginald Henry; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Safety Standards Comparison 60950 (IEC or EN) is a safety standard for Information Technology Equipment (ITE). It is the standard for evaluation of a piece of ITE equipment for electric shock, energy hazards, fire hazards, radiation hazards, chemical hazards, and mechanical hazards. 60529 (IEC or EN) is the ingress protection standard. It is a test standard which enclosures are tested for the extent to which they protect against personnel access, dust access, and water access in various environmental conditions. They are not comparable, they are complementary. Say you've got an outdoor computer. The outdoor concerns, such as rain and dust, could be evaluated to 60529, where the electrical safety concerns inherent to computers (shock, fire, etc.) would be evaluated to 60950. Hope this helps. Sam --- Sam Davis Product Safety Engineer Professional Testing Inc. (512)244-3371 x112 www.ptitest.com From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Reginald Henry Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 8:34 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Safety Standards Comparison Group, SAFETY: EN60950 vs. IEC60529 (Taiwan ) standard. Has anyone here worked with these two standards enough to give me the basic differences and similarities between the two ? Thanks in advance Reg Henry This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Safety Standards Comparison
60950 (IEC or EN) is a safety standard for Information Technology Equipment (ITE). It is the standard for evaluation of a piece of ITE equipment for electric shock, energy hazards, fire hazards, radiation hazards, chemical hazards, and mechanical hazards. 60529 (IEC or EN) is the ingress protection standard. It is a test standard which enclosures are tested for the extent to which they protect against personnel access, dust access, and water access in various environmental conditions. They are not comparable, they are complementary. Say you've got an outdoor computer. The outdoor concerns, such as rain and dust, could be evaluated to 60529, where the electrical safety concerns inherent to computers (shock, fire, etc.) would be evaluated to 60950. Hope this helps. Sam --- Sam Davis Product Safety Engineer Professional Testing Inc. (512)244-3371 x112 www.ptitest.com From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Reginald Henry Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 8:34 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Safety Standards Comparison Group, SAFETY: EN60950 vs. IEC60529 (Taiwan ) standard. Has anyone here worked with these two standards enough to give me the basic differences and similarities between the two ? Thanks in advance Reg Henry This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: generic standards and competent bodies
Hi Miquel, Basically you can use the self-certification route with all From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Miguel Abrahams Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 2:35 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: generic standards and competent bodies Hello group, When you are testing according to generic standards, can the self-certification route be taken, or does a competent bodies needs to be involved? Thanks, Miguel Abrahams CAE Inc. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: generic standards and competent bodies
Hi Miguel Yes, all standards listed in the OJ list of harmonized standards qualify for self certification. That includes all generic standards. You may download a list on many sites among ours. Self certification also includes signing a liability declaration and of course is no easy way to obtain a EC Declaration of Conformity. A NB or CB or ordinary EMC lab might help you in selecting cheaper ways of testing, and prevent you to invest large to huge amounts in test equipment and experience. Regards, Gert Gremmen Approvals manager == ce-test, qualified testing Member of EMC committee CENELEC/IEC + Independent Consultancy Services + Compliance Testing and Design for CE + Improvement of product quality and reliability + Testing services according to: Electro magnetic Compatibility 89/336/EC Electrical Safety 73/23/EC Medical Devices 93/42/EC Radio Telecommunication Terminal equipment 99/5/EC Website: www.cetest.nl Phone : +31 10 415 24 26 Fax :+31 10 415 49 53 == From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Miguel Abrahams Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 2:35 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: generic standards and competent bodies Hello group, When you are testing according to generic standards, can the self-certification route be taken, or does a competent bodies needs to be involved? Thanks, Miguel Abrahams CAE Inc. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Safety Standards Comparison
Reg - 60950 is a product safety standard for ITE 60529 is an ingress protection reference standard for outdoor use equipment/enclosures Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Homologation Services Sanmina-SCI Corp. San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com From: Reginald Henry Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 6:34 AM Group, SAFETY: EN60950 vs. IEC60529 (Taiwan ) standard. Has anyone here worked with these two standards enough to give me the basic differences and similarities between the two ? Thanks in advance Reg Henry This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Safety Standards Comparison
Group, SAFETY: EN60950 vs. IEC60529 (Taiwan ) standard. Has anyone here worked with these two standards enough to give me the basic differences and similarities between the two ? Thanks in advance Reg Henry This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6
Group After reading Ray's reply, I realise I had written LISN instead of CDN. Kindly replace LISN with CDN in my original posting. Rgds From: r...@rpgarner.freeserve.co.uk [SMTP:r...@rpgarner.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 1:39 PM To: Chris Chileshe; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6 Chris, I would suggest you need to change your test house. A good test house would already have power supplies available fed via filters to the test bench. They would also have ambient measurement information available to proof that their power supply was suitable for testing. I am also somewhat surprised that you make no reference to an ambient test having been performed on your set up. Also contrary to popular belief LISNs are not filters they only purpose is to provide a known impedance. I have in the past seen test houses cause more problems than they solve by not checking or using correct test set ups. Ray Garner EMC Consultant WRSL Message date : Sep 24 2003, 12:19 PM From : Chris Chileshe To : emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Copy to : Subject : DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6 Group, After quite a struggle to get a product through conducted immunity tests (clamp method), I finally discovered that the weak link in the chain was in fact my laboratory power supply which I have been taking along with me to a nearby test house. The problem remained undetected for a number of reasons, not least that I had used the same setup before at a different test house using their PSU ( Solartron ASxxx) and had better results, but mostly because we were using a small chamber dedicated to conducted immunity tests and using a camera to monitor the behaviour of the EUT behind closed doors and not keeping an eye on the PSU. When we eventually tracked the anomalous behaviour of the EUT to the PSU, we tried LISNs and a different PSU both of which improved the test results significantly but the outcome was still not good enough from a product compliance point of view. Question 1: Is anyone aware of a power supply suitable for this type of testing? The EUT draws a maximum of 30mA at 12VDC. I have been unable to find any Solartron PSUs on the web; probably long discontinued. Question 2: Has anyone tried to build a filter for this sort of thing and would this be the way to go? Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - UK (O.O.O.) This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk File: ATT00011.htm This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
Re: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6
Chris, I would suggest you need to change your test house. A good test house would already have power supplies available fed via filters to the test bench. They would also have ambient measurement information available to proof that their power supply was suitable for testing. I am also somewhat surprised that you make no reference to an ambient test having been performed on your set up. Also contrary to popular belief LISNs are not filters they only purpose is to provide a known impedance. I have in the past seen test houses cause more problems than they solve by not checking or using correct test set ups. Ray Garner EMC Consultant WRSL Message date : Sep 24 2003, 12:19 PM From : Chris Chileshe To : emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Copy to : Subject : DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6 Group, After quite a struggle to get a product through conducted immunity tests (clamp method), I finally discovered that the weak link in the chain was in fact my laboratory power supply which I have been taking along with me to a nearby test house. The problem remained undetected for a number of reasons, not least that I had used the same setup before at a different test house using their PSU ( Solartron ASxxx) and had better results, but mostly because we were using a small chamber dedicated to conducted immunity tests and using a camera to monitor the behaviour of the EUT behind closed doors and not keeping an eye on the PSU. When we eventually tracked the anomalous behaviour of the EUT to the PSU, we tried LISNs and a different PSU both of which improved the test results significantly but the outcome was still not good enough from a product compliance point of view. Question 1: Is anyone aware of a power supply suitable for this type of testing? The EUT draws a maximum of 30mA at 12VDC. I have been unable to find any Solartron PSUs on the web; probably long discontinued. Question 2: Has anyone tried to build a filter for this sort of thing and would this be the way to go? Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - UK (O.O.O.) This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
generic standards and competent bodies
Hello group, When you are testing according to generic standards, can the self-certification route be taken, or does a competent bodies needs to be involved? Thanks, Miguel Abrahams CAE Inc. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6
Hi Chris, The power supply definitely should be decoupled by a standard CDN (f.a. CDN-T2) in order to couple the RF current from the calmp to ground. Then any standard power supply will probably do the job. This is exactly one of the major drawback (apart from needing higher power amps) that goes with the application of the EM-clamp. You might opt for CDN's for all cables to get better results on all tests. Note that the new EN 61000-4-6 allows for using only 2 CDN at a time. Regards, Gert Gremmen Approvals manager == ce-test, qualified testing Member of EMC committee CENELEC/IEC + Independent Consultancy Services + Compliance Testing and Design for CE + Improvement of product quality and reliability + Testing services according to: Electro magnetic Compatibility 89/336/EC Electrical Safety 73/23/EC Medical Devices 93/42/EC Radio Telecommunication Terminal equipment 99/5/EC Website: www.ce-test.nl Phone : +31 10 415 24 26 Fax :+31 10 415 49 53 == From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Chris Chileshe Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:33 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6 Group, After quite a struggle to get a product through conducted immunity tests (clamp method), I finally discovered that the weak link in the chain was in fact my laboratory power supply which I have been taking along with me to a nearby test house. The problem remained undetected for a number of reasons, not least that I had used the same setup before at a different test house using their PSU ( Solartron ASxxx) and had better results, but mostly because we were using a small chamber dedicated to conducted immunity tests and using a camera to monitor the behaviour of the EUT behind closed doors and not keeping an eye on the PSU. When we eventually tracked the anomalous behaviour of the EUT to the PSU, we tried LISNs and a different PSU both of which improved the test results significantly but the outcome was still not good enough from a product compliance point of view. Question 1: Is anyone aware of a power supply suitable for this type of testing? The EUT draws a maximum of 30mA at 12VDC. I have been unable to find any Solartron PSUs on the web; probably long discontinued. Question 2: Has anyone tried to build a filter for this sort of thing and would this be the way to go? Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - UK (O.O.O.) This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Country Homologation Requirements for .......
Group, I'm looking for your opinion on telecommunication requirements for the following countries. Specifically, this is in reference to the following types of telecom gear: -48VDC, No PSTN connection, normally found in Central Office locations As this information seems to be vague or contradictory depending on the source, all comments on any of these countries are appreciated. Saudi Arabia EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - India EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - United Arab Emerites ( UAE) EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Pakistan EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Sri Lanka EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Bangladesh EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Malaysia EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Egypt EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Tunisia EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Thailand EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Russia EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Estonia EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Lithuania EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Latvia EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Poland EMC - Safety- Network Access License- Telecom Testing- In Country Testing - Regards, Jeffrey Collins Sr. HW Engineering Manager Corporate Compliance Homologations CIENA Corporation 5965 Silver Creek Valley Rd. San Jose, CA. 95138 (408) 571-3002, Fax (408) 965-2705 jcoll...@ciena.com www.ciena.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re:
I read in !emc-pstc that Lothar Schmidt lothar.schm...@cetecomusa.com wrote (in 5EFB06767D7DD211828C0008C74CE95BEB7C68@calvin) about '' on Tue, 23 Sep 2003: The standard is not harmonized yet, but recently published. ALL ENs are identical in all CENELEC countries, which is the real, original meaning of 'harmonization'. I suspect you mean it has not been *notified* in the Official Journal yet. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Arcing Sparking
Fellow Listers, Many thanks to all those that responded to my query on arcing and sparking. I now have a much better appreciation of the difference. All of your answers will be passed to the original design review team from whence the query came. Cheers Jim __ Jim Speakman (Design Safety Representative (Southern Sites) Thales Defence Ltd Thales Sensors Manor Royal Crawley West Sussex RH10 9PZ * Tel:+44(0)1293 644911 * Mob:+44(0)7968 529439 * Fax : +44(0)1293 644194 *e-mail jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com __ This e-mail contains confidential information for the addressee only. If a transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify us on +44(0)1293 644911 and delete it and all copies from your system. You should not use, disclose, distribute or copy this communication if received in error. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
DC PSU for conducted immunity testing to EN61000-4-6
Group, After quite a struggle to get a product through conducted immunity tests (clamp method), I finally discovered that the weak link in the chain was in fact my laboratory power supply which I have been taking along with me to a nearby test house. The problem remained undetected for a number of reasons, not least that I had used the same setup before at a different test house using their PSU ( Solartron ASxxx) and had better results, but mostly because we were using a small chamber dedicated to conducted immunity tests and using a camera to monitor the behaviour of the EUT behind closed doors and not keeping an eye on the PSU. When we eventually tracked the anomalous behaviour of the EUT to the PSU, we tried LISNs and a different PSU both of which improved the test results significantly but the outcome was still not good enough from a product compliance point of view. Question 1: Is anyone aware of a power supply suitable for this type of testing? The EUT draws a maximum of 30mA at 12VDC. I have been unable to find any Solartron PSUs on the web; probably long discontinued. Question 2: Has anyone tried to build a filter for this sort of thing and would this be the way to go? Best regards - Chris Chileshe - Ultronics Ltd - UK (O.O.O.) This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Measurement of touch current
I am not into 3-phase but from my long ago college days I would see no reason for the star to star not being correct and I guess that the critical factor is the star isolating transformer. I would also agree with your transforms for different voltages / frequencies. You don't say which of the three measuring networks specified in EN 60990 that you intend to use, but that of Fig 4 is the same as that used in EN 60950 which may, or may not, be a reason for selecting that version. Checking the two standards, I find that of figure 5B in EN 60950 to be easier to understand, but as I have already mentioned, I'm not really familiar with 3-phase. Regards, Neil Helsby ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
TONIGHT - Chicago PSTC Meeting - CCC Chinese Compulsory Certification - THURS Sept 25th, 5:30pm for 6pm
Reminder: Ken Thomas ktho...@productsafetyinc.com 08/15/2003 15:26 To: list Subject: Chicago PSTC Meeting Announcement Please see the attached for information on our next meeting. Guests are welcome. Please ask any guest to RSVP so that we can make sure we have enough seats and refreshments. Hope to see you there! Check out our new web page at http://ewh.ieee.org/r4/chicago/pstc/ (Thanks go out to Ron Borowski at QTI) Best regards, Ken Thomas Chair - Chicago PSTC IEEE's PRODUCT SAFETY TECHNICAL COMMITTEE -- CHICAGO CHAPTER List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thursday, September 25, 2003 Place: TUV Rheinland of North America 1945 Techny Rd., Unit 4 Northbrook, IL 60062 Time: 5:30 - 7:30pm Please let us know if you plan on attending so we can plan accordingly. Visitors or new members are welcome to join us. RSVP: Ken Thomas - 630/238-0188 (cell - 630-330-3525) mailto:ktho...@productsafetyinc.com Agenda Items 1. Review of Meeting Minutes from Previous Meeting 2. New Issues/Concerns 3. Chicago PSTC Web Site 4. Presentation -- See description below. Presentation starts at 6:00PM. Presentation: CCC -- Chinese Compulsory Certification As of Aug 1, 2003 of this year a new Compulsory Certification system was implemented in China.This system will be reviewed and topics covered will include identification of which products are affected, the process to obtain certification, the Agent Role in CCC cert- ification and the Organization and Structure behind CCC and its adoption. Presenter: Jonathan Kotrba -- TUV Rheinland N.A. Jonathan has 13 years experience in the product safety field working for Underwriters Laboratories and TUV Rheinland. He is presently an Engineering Group Leader for TUV Rheinland and has recently served as International Certification Manager for TUV Rheinland of North America. Jonathan assists applicants obtain world-wide certifications and approvals for their products, while advancing TUV Rheinland of North America's accreditation and certification programs. In addition, Jonathan serves on several working groups within the CB scheme and is a Peer Assessor for the IECEE. Jonathan's most recent speaking engagements regarding Chinese Compulsory Certification occurred this year with the US Department of Commerce in Illinois, Indiana and Wisconsin. Special thanks to TUV Rheinland of North America for sponsoring the meeting site and Intertek Testing Services for sponsoring the evening's refreshments. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
