RE: IEC 61010-1
Hello Kim, The only way you are going to get a TRF for IEC 61010-1 national differences is from a third party certifier like CSA, UL, or TUV. One exists for the USA and Canada that I have used in the past from CSA. However, I am not aware of any other available TRFs for other countries considering that most of them have adopted IEC 61010-1:2001 without modifications, except Japan, Australia, and the Russian Federation. Also, I would not use the TRF sold by the IEC. The IEC has apparently gotten out of that business and has passed it on to the IECEE and the CTLs who operate under the CB scheme. You are better off using the latest version of the IEC 61010-1 TRF created by VDE because that is the one accepted by IECEE CTLs. Best regards, Ron Wellman, RAC, NCE From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kim Boll Jensen Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 8:11 AM To: EMC PSTC Subject: IEC 61010-1 Hi I’m am seeking a reportform for national deviations to the EN/IEC 61010-1 2.ed, this is not included in the TRF from IEC, can any one point me to a place to download/buy it. Best regards, Mr. Kim Boll Jensen Bolls Rådgivning Ved Gadekæret 11F DK-3660 Stenløse Phone: +45 48 18 35 66 k...@bolls.dk www.bolls.dk - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
I too have found that to be the case, namely that the analogue circuits play a
greater role in EMC immunity than the digital .
Ralph McDiarmid, AScT
Compliance Engineering Group
Xantrex Technology Inc
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ce-test,
qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:48 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
I have done quite a bit of digital equipment testing,
and I have not often see a microprocessor being susceptible in
the 10-20-30 V/m range. And yes cellphones above 1-2 Watts can
easily generate 20-40 volts/m when emitting max power.
What causes the problem in many cases is the analog circuitry associated
with microprocessors:
- scanned keyboards
- supply voltage monitoring circuits
- analog inputs (like temperature sensors)
Where I would give the first category a big chance of
having caused the problems.
The problem is that digital designers do not uncommonly
no nothing about:
- current flowing through ground
- current flowing in loops
- other voltages then 1 and 0
- other signals then wanted signals
Working at companies that:
- do not think about their responsibilities unless penalized
- focus on maximizing revenues and lowering costs
- minimize on test costs "judged" superfluous ("because we never had any
problem" , sounds familiar?)
These companies are managed by "managers" that focus on:
- Lowering the costs of education "hardware"
- Maximizing their personal revenues
- Minimizing their personnel revenues
Digital designers are educated by schools that prefer:
- Simulating electronics instead of experimenting
- Simulating instead of soldering
- Checking functional specifications only
Which are managed by modern managers (ex bank?) that focus on:
- Lowering the costs of education "hardware"
- Maximizing their personal revenues
- Minimizing their personnel revenues
The lists above are in no way:
- complete
- objective
- conclusive
So don't judge the good old microprocessor
and blame the managers !
;<))
Gert Gremmen
Ce-test
Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Kunde, Brian
Verzonden: maandag 24 augustus 2009 20:24
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org
Onderwerp: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any
reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter was
that powerful.
We played around with a cell phone and our isotropic probe and we couldn't get
a reading over a few V/m unless we put the phone right up against the antenna
cone. And then, the maximum we read was around 30V/m, but again, that was
with the phone touching the antenna of the probe.
Curious.
The Other Brian
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John McAuley
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 12:11 PM
To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
It was me, I thought I was replying to all.
John McAuley
DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential
and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying
or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other
person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please
notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: 24 August 2009 16:33
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message
<9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub>,
dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, "Price, Edward" writes:
>OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a
>cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see
>some interaction.
>
>And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be
>expected for household systems.
It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't
know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to
all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional
safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF
immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard,
IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!).
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
this does not seem surprising, unless Brooklyn enforces immunity performance for home appliances. Now if he can only get it to control his TV, DVR and garage door opener. :) Best Regards, Patrick. p.con...@hp.com 281-514-2259 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Fred Townsend Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:28 PM To: EMC List Server Subject: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Brooklyn Man's Sony Ericsson PDA Sets Off Maytag Magic Chef Broiler Every Time it Rings Nearby see http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/18/national/main5248949.shtml Fred Townsend DC to Light - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
That went to the dogs I meant cooker John Woodgate wrote: > In message <4a92d5ff.2000...@aol.com>, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Derek > Walton writes: > >> It just so happens I have in the lab right now a high end cocker > > Pedigree spaniel? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Curious Other Brian: I did a field survey about 10 years ago at various rapid transit stations, with my antennas set up 2 meters away from the electronic faregates. (Why 2 meters? That was close as I could get to the faregates without the customers being able to grab my antennas. Oh yes, they did try!) I found that the customer carried electronics was the worst EMI threat to our faregates. And interestingly, in all the bands, the customer electronics managed to generate about 5 to 10 V/M. I saw 27 MHz CB sets, ham 2-meter transceivers, 150 MHz public service radios (from the electricians and other service workers), 450 MHz police radios, 800 MHz cell phones and 1600 MHz phones too. Generally, the emitter power decreased as frequency rose, but antenna efficiency increased, so the field strength was surprisingly predictable. Of course, as John Woodgate points out, a cell phone could well be placed so close to a home appliance that field strength becomes wildly unpredictable. True, this data is 10 years old, but I don't see any reason for the results to not still be a good guide. Since I like 6 dB margins, I would propose a minimum of 20 V/M immunity level for any electronic gadget exposed to the general public. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty > -Original Message- > From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf > Of Kunde, Brian > Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:24 AM > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? > > Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or > more at any reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't > think the transmitter was that powerful. > > We played around with a cell phone and our isotropic probe > and we couldn't get a reading over a few V/m unless we put > the phone right up against the antenna cone. And then, the > maximum we read was around 30V/m, but again, that was with > the phone touching the antenna of the probe. > > Curious. > > The Other Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message <4a92d5ff.2000...@aol.com>, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Derek Walton writes: >It just so happens I have in the lab right now a high end cocker Pedigree spaniel? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message , dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, "ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen" writes: >These companies are managed by "managers" that focus on: > >- Lowering the costs of education "hardware" >- Maximizing their personal revenues >- Minimizing their personnel revenues And, being dedicated to 'top-down' management because they don't have the imagination to see any other way, still have EMC and safety imposed after design, instead of embedded in it. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message <0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a605670107c...@mailserver.lecotc.com>, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, "Kunde, Brian" writes: >Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any >reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter >was that powerful. I don't think you can assume 1 metre; 10 cm might be practicable, but then the field is so 'near' that any field strength measurement is subject to high uncertainty. I don't think it's possible to be certain about the choice of emission limits or immunity levels without field(!) tests, because of the number of uncontrollable variables [1] and the problems of measurements under near-field conditions. [1] The cell phone field strength at my house is rather too weak for reliability. So, I could use the quasi-hemispherical aluminium lid of my wok as a reflector to concentrate the field! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
I have done quite a bit of digital equipment testing,
and I have not often see a microprocessor being susceptible in
the 10-20-30 V/m range. And yes cellphones above 1-2 Watts can
easily generate 20-40 volts/m when emitting max power.
What causes the problem in many cases is the analog circuitry associated
with microprocessors:
- scanned keyboards
- supply voltage monitoring circuits
- analog inputs (like temperature sensors)
Where I would give the first category a big chance of
having caused the problems.
The problem is that digital designers do not uncommonly
no nothing about:
- current flowing through ground
- current flowing in loops
- other voltages then 1 and 0
- other signals then wanted signals
Working at companies that:
- do not think about their responsibilities unless penalized
- focus on maximizing revenues and lowering costs
- minimize on test costs "judged" superfluous ("because we never had any
problem" , sounds familiar?)
These companies are managed by "managers" that focus on:
- Lowering the costs of education "hardware"
- Maximizing their personal revenues
- Minimizing their personnel revenues
Digital designers are educated by schools that prefer:
- Simulating electronics instead of experimenting
- Simulating instead of soldering
- Checking functional specifications only
Which are managed by modern managers (ex bank?) that focus on:
- Lowering the costs of education "hardware"
- Maximizing their personal revenues
- Minimizing their personnel revenues
The lists above are in no way:
- complete
- objective
- conclusive
So don't judge the good old microprocessor
and blame the managers !
;<))
Gert Gremmen
Ce-test
Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Kunde, Brian
Verzonden: maandag 24 augustus 2009 20:24
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org
Onderwerp: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any
reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter was
that powerful.
We played around with a cell phone and our isotropic probe and we couldn't get
a reading over a few V/m unless we put the phone right up against the antenna
cone. And then, the maximum we read was around 30V/m, but again, that was
with the phone touching the antenna of the probe.
Curious.
The Other Brian
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John McAuley
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 12:11 PM
To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
It was me, I thought I was replying to all.
John McAuley
DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential
and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying
or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other
person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please
notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: 24 August 2009 16:33
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message
<9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub>,
dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, "Price, Edward" writes:
>OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a
>cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see
>some interaction.
>
>And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be
>expected for household systems.
It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't
know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to
all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional
safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF
immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard,
IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!).
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
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Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that
URL.
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Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas
Mike Cantwell
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:
David Heald:
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
All e
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter was that powerful. We played around with a cell phone and our isotropic probe and we couldn't get a reading over a few V/m unless we put the phone right up against the antenna cone. And then, the maximum we read was around 30V/m, but again, that was with the phone touching the antenna of the probe. Curious. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John McAuley Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 12:11 PM To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? It was me, I thought I was replying to all. John McAuley DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: 24 August 2009 16:33 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message <9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub>, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, "Price, Edward" writes: >OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a >cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see >some interaction. > >And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be >expected for household systems. It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard, IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Hi All, I've not paid much attention to this so far because I was working... shame on me. It just so happens I have in the lab right now a high end cocker ( Range to the US folks ). This rascle has 2 microprocessors, to improve safely I'm told. It seems like the homework has been done, since it passed all tests at level 4. That was my clients request. The hardest thing we had was the clicks... Now when I saw the requirements ( cant remember which std ) it seamed like the EMC requirements were very low, BUT, there were additional safety requirements imposed separately. I wonder if the manufacturer only tested to the lowest requirements? Cheers, Derek. John Woodgate wrote: > In message > , > dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Ralph McDiarmid > writes: > >> And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a >> microprocessor in the first place? > > HERESY! (;-) - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Well yes, and the proliferation of the almighty micro has created many a firmware job. One more profession for industry to 'outsource' I suppose. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:34 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message , dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Ralph McDiarmid writes: >And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a microprocessor >in the first place? HERESY! (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message , dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Ralph McDiarmid writes: >And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a microprocessor >in the first place? HERESY! (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: [PSES] Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Perhaps for that reason gas ovens shouldn't be fitted with microprocessor control systems. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:34 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Andy: I applaud the direction of your thought, but we should modify it a bit by saying "...no reasonable amount of EMI..." You can't expect a household appliance to withstand 200 or 500 V/M, as if it was a military system. OTOH, 3 V/M is far too low. I would suggest that, for safety critical items, perhaps 50 V/M immunity for residential products would be a good level. Gas ovens that turn themselves on, even in the presence of a ridiculously positioned cell phone, shouldn't be acceptable. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty > -Original Message- > From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf > Of Andy Clifford > Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 2:49 AM > To: 'John Woodgate'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: RE: [PSES] Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - > Popcorn II? > > Seems to me a bad control system design - no amount of EMI > should turn an oven on - this is basic fault tolerance philosophy. > > > Andy Clifford > > Conformance Ltd - Product safety, approvals and CE-marking > consultants The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, > SK17 8RG England Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, > www.conformance.co.uk Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
All the more reason not to use cell phones while driving your late model automobile now stuffed full of the all-important microprocessor and associated electronics. I can imagine all sorts of nasty interaction with anti-lock braking and cruise-control systems. And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a microprocessor in the first place? Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:26 AM To: EMC List Server Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? I wonder if Andrei normally leaves his cell phone balanced between two of the cooktop burners? OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. If your system just happens to be a controller that regulates watering, flame cooking, microwave cooking, radiant heating, etc; you should verifying that immunity doesn't create a safety hazard. An appliance manufacturer shouldn't kid themselves that slapping a microprocessor into a gas oven doesn't create risk that isn't addressed by safety standards that were written for manual appliances. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty > -Original Message- > From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf > Of Fred Townsend > Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 11:28 AM > To: EMC List Server > Subject: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? > > Brooklyn Man's Sony Ericsson PDA Sets Off Maytag Magic Chef > Broiler Every Time it Rings Nearby > > see > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/18/national/main5248949.shtml > > Fred Townsend > DC to Light > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
It was me, I thought I was replying to all. John McAuley DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: 24 August 2009 16:33 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message <9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub>, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, "Price, Edward" writes: >OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a >cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see >some interaction. > >And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be >expected for household systems. It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard, IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message <9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub>, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, "Price, Edward" writes: >OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a >cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see >some interaction. > >And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be >expected for household systems. It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard, IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
IEC 61010-1
Hi I’m am seeking a reportform for national deviations to the EN/IEC 61010-1 2.ed, this is not included in the TRF from IEC, can any one point me to a place to download/buy it. Best regards, Mr. Kim Boll Jensen Bolls Rådgivning Ved Gadekæret 11F DK-3660 Stenløse Phone: +45 48 18 35 66 k...@bolls.dk www.bolls.dk - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald
RE: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings
Netflix ships millions of DVDs per year in even flimsier packaging and it does not seem to be causing them major problems (though I have received cracked DVDs on a couple of occasions). From: Price, Edward [mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com] Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings Seriously, CD's are pretty tough. That one must have received very "special" handling to yield 17 pieces. BTW, did you ever receive an envelope with a big official sticker on it that reads "Damaged in Handling by your Postal Service"? The irony is almost more than I can stand. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com> WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Conway, Patrick R (bNB Houston) Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:48 AM To: Taylor, Michael; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings < I can't believe an engineering society would think that sending a CD thru the mail in a flimsy paper cover had any chance of survival.> But - they had 3 dB of packaging margin when they released it to production! J We are the EMC Society, not the Shock & Vibe, or Packaging, society - maybe we should spend some of that dues revenue to hire a consultant? Seriously- you should be able to contact the society VP for Conference Services, the list contributor Ghery Petit, and have a replacement sent out to you. Best Regards, Patrick. p.con...@hp.com 281-514-2259 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Taylor, Michael Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 7:49 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings Hello All, Checking my mail on Saturday I found my copy of the 2009 EMC Symposium Proceedings CD. I was anxious to read the papers presented, I was not able to attend due to "Budget Concerns" at my company. Opening the package, all 17 pieces of what was originally the CD fell out. I can't believe an engineering society would think that sending a CD thru the mail in a flimsy paper cover had any chance of survival. Have any other members received there proceedings CD in "KIT FORM" ??? Someone needs to be held accountable for a major lack of understand of fundamental engineering principals. You can't mail a CD in a thin paper - fold over mailer. The Post office will crush it. I intend to return the pieces to the mailing organization demanding a properly packaged replacement. I feel better now - I'll take my soap box and go back to work. Regards to all Michael Taylor Colorado - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald
RE: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings
Seriously, CD's are pretty tough. That one must have received very "special" handling to yield 17 pieces. BTW, did you ever receive an envelope with a big official sticker on it that reads "Damaged in Handling by your Postal Service"? The irony is almost more than I can stand. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com> WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Conway, Patrick R (bNB Houston) Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:48 AM To: Taylor, Michael; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings < I can't believe an engineering society would think that sending a CD thru the mail in a flimsy paper cover had any chance of survival.> But - they had 3 dB of packaging margin when they released it to production! J We are the EMC Society, not the Shock & Vibe, or Packaging, society - maybe we should spend some of that dues revenue to hire a consultant? Seriously- you should be able to contact the society VP for Conference Services, the list contributor Ghery Petit, and have a replacement sent out to you. Best Regards, Patrick. p.con...@hp.com 281-514-2259 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Taylor, Michael Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 7:49 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings Hello All, Checking my mail on Saturday I found my copy of the 2009 EMC Symposium Proceedings CD. I was anxious to read the papers presented, I was not able to attend due to "Budget Concerns" at my company. Opening the package, all 17 pieces of what was originally the CD fell out. I can't believe an engineering society would think that sending a CD thru the mail in a flimsy paper cover had any chance of survival. Have any other members received there proceedings CD in "KIT FORM" ??? Someone needs to be held accountable for a major lack of understand of fundamental engineering principals. You can't mail a CD in a thin paper - fold over mailer. The Post office will crush it. I intend to return the pieces to the mailing organization demanding a properly packaged replacement. I feel better now - I'll take my soap box and go back to work. Regards to all Michael Taylor Colorado - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald
RE: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings
< I can't believe an engineering society would think that sending a CD thru the mail in a flimsy paper cover had any chance of survival.> But - they had 3 dB of packaging margin when they released it to production! J We are the EMC Society, not the Shock & Vibe, or Packaging, society - maybe we should spend some of that dues revenue to hire a consultant? Seriously- you should be able to contact the society VP for Conference Services, the list contributor Ghery Petit, and have a replacement sent out to you. Best Regards, Patrick. p.con...@hp.com 281-514-2259 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Taylor, Michael Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 7:49 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings Hello All, Checking my mail on Saturday I found my copy of the 2009 EMC Symposium Proceedings CD. I was anxious to read the papers presented, I was not able to attend due to "Budget Concerns" at my company. Opening the package, all 17 pieces of what was originally the CD fell out. I can't believe an engineering society would think that sending a CD thru the mail in a flimsy paper cover had any chance of survival. Have any other members received there proceedings CD in "KIT FORM" ??? Someone needs to be held accountable for a major lack of understand of fundamental engineering principals. You can't mail a CD in a thin paper - fold over mailer. The Post office will crush it. I intend to return the pieces to the mailing organization demanding a properly packaged replacement. I feel better now - I'll take my soap box and go back to work. Regards to all Michael Taylor Colorado Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, copy or re-transmit this email. If you have received this email in error, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and by telephone (call us collect at +1 202-828-0850) and delete this message and any attachments. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and assistance. In addition, Danaher and its subsidiaries disclaim that the content of this email constitutes an offer to enter into, or the acceptance of, any contract or agreement or any amendment thereto; provided that the foregoing disclaimer does not invalidate the binding effect of any digital or other electronic reproduction of a manual signature that is included in any attachment to this email. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald
RE: [PSES] Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Andy: I applaud the direction of your thought, but we should modify it a bit by saying "...no reasonable amount of EMI..." You can't expect a household appliance to withstand 200 or 500 V/M, as if it was a military system. OTOH, 3 V/M is far too low. I would suggest that, for safety critical items, perhaps 50 V/M immunity for residential products would be a good level. Gas ovens that turn themselves on, even in the presence of a ridiculously positioned cell phone, shouldn't be acceptable. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty > -Original Message- > From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf > Of Andy Clifford > Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 2:49 AM > To: 'John Woodgate'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: RE: [PSES] Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - > Popcorn II? > > Seems to me a bad control system design - no amount of EMI > should turn an oven on - this is basic fault tolerance philosophy. > > > Andy Clifford > > Conformance Ltd - Product safety, approvals and CE-marking > consultants The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, > SK17 8RG England Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, > www.conformance.co.uk Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings
In message , dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, "Taylor, Michael" writes: >Opening the package, all 17 pieces of what was originally the CD fell >out. That's the way the cookie crumbles. (;-) the other hand, mine arrived in UK with no damage. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
I wonder if Andrei normally leaves his cell phone balanced between two of the cooktop burners? OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. If your system just happens to be a controller that regulates watering, flame cooking, microwave cooking, radiant heating, etc; you should verifying that immunity doesn't create a safety hazard. An appliance manufacturer shouldn't kid themselves that slapping a microprocessor into a gas oven doesn't create risk that isn't addressed by safety standards that were written for manual appliances. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty > -Original Message- > From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf > Of Fred Townsend > Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 11:28 AM > To: EMC List Server > Subject: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? > > Brooklyn Man's Sony Ericsson PDA Sets Off Maytag Magic Chef > Broiler Every Time it Rings Nearby > > see > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/18/national/main5248949.shtml > > Fred Townsend > DC to Light > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Damaged CD of 2009 EMC Proceedings
Hello All, Checking my mail on Saturday I found my copy of the 2009 EMC Symposium Proceedings CD. I was anxious to read the papers presented, I was not able to attend due to "Budget Concerns" at my company. Opening the package, all 17 pieces of what was originally the CD fell out. I can't believe an engineering society would think that sending a CD thru the mail in a flimsy paper cover had any chance of survival. Have any other members received there proceedings CD in "KIT FORM" ??? Someone needs to be held accountable for a major lack of understand of fundamental engineering principals. You can't mail a CD in a thin paper - fold over mailer. The Post office will crush it. I intend to return the pieces to the mailing organization demanding a properly packaged replacement. I feel better now - I'll take my soap box and go back to work. Regards to all Michael Taylor Colorado Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, copy or re-transmit this email. If you have received this email in error, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and by telephone (call us collect at +1 202-828-0850) and delete this message and any attachments. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and assistance. In addition, Danaher and its subsidiaries disclaim that the content of this email constitutes an offer to enter into, or the acceptance of, any contract or agreement or any amendment thereto; provided that the foregoing disclaimer does not invalidate the binding effect of any digital or other electronic reproduction of a manual signature that is included in any attachment to this email. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald
RE: [PSES] Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Seems to me a bad control system design - no amount of EMI should turn an oven on - this is basic fault tolerance philosophy. Andy Clifford Conformance Ltd - Product safety, approvals and CE-marking consultants The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, SK17 8RG England Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, www.conformance.co.uk Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: 23 August 2009 22:16 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message <4bea4e50d3d4344da9d84367ae317064078cf...@dcexvs02.tennant.tco.corp>, dated Sun, 23 Aug 2009, "Bender, Curtis" writes: >Skeptical I looked into it further and found a more recent post: >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/nyregion/23about.html > >Seems legitimate although I am still a little skeptical - Back in "the >day" I used to work for a company that designed such controls. It seems >unreasonable but I'll certainly check with some of my old colleagues... I don't find it a great surprise. The cell phone responds to the incoming call by transmitting, and since it's indoors, it probably transmits at quite high power. The cooker control electronics simply isn't sufficiently immune to this at a distance of 60 cm or so. Are there in fact any immunity requirements for cookers in the cell phone bands in USA? In Europe, CISPR 14-2/EN 55014-2 applies: 3 V/m (before modulation) modulated 80% at 1 kHz, 80 MHz to 1 GHz. But the field strength from the phone might exceed that, in that environment and at that distance. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: [PSES] EN 60601-1: 2006
Dear Andy, On the subject issue please refer to the below comments received from the Chairman of CLC/ TC62: “The November 2010 date is a mistaken interpretation of an older CLC/TC 62 resolution. When CLC BT accepts the June 2009 TC decisions (and the Commission publishes these in the OJEU), the date will be 01 June 2012”. Best Regards, Steli Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE Q.A & Certification Manager I.T.L (Product Testing) Ltd. Convener IEC/TC62/SC62A/WG17 1 Bat Sheva St., POB 87 Lod 71100, Israel V: +972-(0)8-9153100 Ext.203 F: +972-(0)8-9153101 M: +972-(0)54-7245794 st...@itl.co.il http://www.itl.co.il From: Andy Clifford [mailto:andy.cliff...@conformance.co.uk] Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:52 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EN 60601-1: 2006 November 2010 is the date after which 60601-1: 990 ceases to apply to medical devices with no part 2 particular standard – Cenelec report CLC/TC 62 at the 134 BT meeting this year. Best regards Andy Clifford Conformance Ltd - Product safety, approvals and CE-marking consultants The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, SK17 8RG England Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, www.conformance.co.uk Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 From: Kim Boll Jensen [mailto:k...@bolls.dk] Sent: 21 August 2009 07:43 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] EN 60601-1: 2006 Hi all On the list of harmonised standards under directive 93/42/EEC (27/11 2008), EN 60601:2006 was publicated but there are no Date of cessation/DoW. Does anyone know if this is a mistake, and where I can get information on DoW for the old version. I know that many of the 60601-2-x standards refer to the old standard and as long as they are not updated the old will still be active. But what if you don’t have to address a -2-x standard. Best regards, Mr. Kim Boll Jensen Bolls Rådgivning Ved Gadekæret 11F DK-3660 Stenløse Phone: +45 48 18 35 66 k...@bolls.dk www.bolls.dk - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald
Re: 28 volt Linear Power Supply
Hi All, Many, many thanks to all who replied... I couldn't keep track in the end. In summary, I cant use batteries, so we have a "modern" switcher that were going to try in the am. I'll let the list know what happens. Sincerely, Derek Walton L F Research Cortland Richmond wrote: > Hi Derek, > > My current employer (no pun intended) has in one chamber an ancient Edison > Nickel-Iron battery it used to run equipment off. These days they use a > small (by comparison) analog PS. However... if anyone in your neck of the > woods have electric forklifts or golf carts they might loan or rent you > some batteries that would do the job. > > Cortland Richmond KA5S > > > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Derek Walton >> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >> Date: 8/21/2009 11:14:30 AM >> Subject: 28 volt Linear Power Supply >> >> Good morning folks, >> >> I have been requested to perform a conducted emissions test on a unit >> that draws up to 50 amps from a 28 volt source. >> >> I have a 300 amp supply and its a little too noisy being a switcher. >> >> Can anyone suggest a make/model that can do 28 volts at up to 50 amps >> thats either linear or super quiet please. Its very hard researching how >> quiet supplies are. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Derek Walton >> L F Research >> >> > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: > David Heald: > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
