[PSES] Safety requirements in US

[Scott Xe]

Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD.  In US, 
which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory?


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[Doug Powell]

  In my local area we have a ‎company Wolf Robotics. They make multi-axis robotics and degrees of motion simply indicate the number of directions possible on an articulated arm. These "robots" can be seen on their website. Another example is a medical company has developed a highly articulated robotic probe (HARP) that can thread it's way through organs and tissue with minimal damage.    DougDouglas E Powelldoug...@gmail.com ‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 ‎From: Ed PriceSent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:07 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: Ed PriceSubject: Re: [PSES] Friday QuestionDoug: Strange, but just a few days ago I was following up the claims of a soft-science news story which claimed robots with “nine degrees of motion.” I couldn’t find anything to back up that claim. As far as I know, I agree with your limit of six. Hmm, maybe we could get philosophical and call time a dimension? (Would that be translation along the Serling axis?) Ed PriceWB6WSNChula Vista, CA USA From: Douglas Nix [mailto:d...@mac.com] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 2:50 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: Re: [PSES] Friday Question Rich, Many industrial robots have six axes or more. They are often not described in the Cartesian manner you are using as the robot actually operates in a set of spherical coordinates. They still use x, y, z, by convention, but often you’ll also find x1, y1, z1, x2, y2, z2, etc. Doug Nixd...@mac.com 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  
David Heald 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[Ed Price]

Doug:

 

Strange, but just a few days ago I was following up the claims of a 
soft-science news story which claimed robots with “nine degrees of motion.” I 
couldn’t find anything to back up that claim. As far as I know, I agree with 
your limit of six. Hmm, maybe we could get philosophical and call time a 
dimension? (Would that be translation along the Serling axis?)

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA



 

From: Douglas Nix [mailto:d...@mac.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 2:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday Question

 

Rich,

 

Many industrial robots have six axes or more. They are often not described in 
the Cartesian manner you are using as the robot actually operates in a set of 
spherical coordinates. They still use x, y, z, by convention, but often you’ll 
also find x1, y1, z1, x2, y2, z2, etc.

 

Doug Nix

d...@mac.com

 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[Douglas Nix]

Rich,

Many industrial robots have six axes or more. They are often not described in 
the Cartesian manner you are using as the robot actually operates in a set of 
spherical coordinates. They still use x, y, z, by convention, but often you’ll 
also find x1, y1, z1, x2, y2, z2, etc.

Doug Nix
d...@mac.com

"The Best Place to Succeed is where you are, with what you have." - Charles 
Schwab



> On 22-Jul-16, at 17:29, Richard Nute  wrote:
> 
>  
> ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable, 
> multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be 
> either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation 
> applications."  
>  
> My Roomba doesn’t fit this definition.  First, it is only two axes.  Second, 
> it is for home use, not industrial.  Third, I don’t know if it is 
> reprogrammable.
>  
> I still consider it a robot.
>  
>  
> Rich
>  
> ps:  Three or more axes?  I know x, y, and z.  What are the additional axes?
>  
>  
>  
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas >
> Mike Cantwell >
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher >
> David Heald >
> 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NEC 2017

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

I attended an NFPA webinar this week that indicated this.  I’m waiting for them 
to publish the offline slides to look at.  I think they also said the 2017 
edition is not finalized yet.

-Dave

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 6:13 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEC 2017

Have we established that the 2017 edition actually has NRTL vs Listed?

I would like to hear some clause references since it is nearly 600 pages.

Thanks,  Doug


Douglas E Powell
Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Richard Nute 
> wrote:


The NEC is a model standard and intended to be adopted by local and state AHJs. 
 In doing so, the AHJs often take exception to some requirements, and add some 
requirements.  In adopting the NEC, the AHJs must specify what “listing” means 
– what third-party certifiers are acceptable to the local or state AHJ.  The 
NEC has not mentioned or specified by name a third-party certifier.

AHJs accept third-party certifications according to their local or state rules. 
 A specific NRTL certification may or may not be currently acceptable.

Now that the 2017 NEC specifies NRTL, it will be interesting to see how the 
local and state AHJs accept specific NRTLs, or NRTLs by standards (as does 
OSHA), or blanket all NRTLs.  Note that AHJs have different objectives than 
OSHA, who runs the NRTL program.


Rich


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com



--

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas >
Mike Cantwell >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher >
David Heald >

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[John Woodgate]

Yes, that's the boring true explanation.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: alfred1520list [mailto:alfred1520l...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday Question
 
Hi Rich,

> ps:  Three or more axes?  I know x, y, and z.  What are the additional axes?

I've heard about six axes robots. I think they are the three translational 
axes, i.e. left/right, up/down, back/forth, and the three rotational axes which 
may not be aligned with the translational axes. Think your shoulder and arm 
give you the three translational movement, and your wrist gives you limited 
rotational movement. So a six degree robot is super human:)
On July 22, 2016 2:29:05 PM PDT, Richard Nute  > wrote:
 
ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable, 
multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be 
either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation applications." 
 
 
My Roomba doesn’t fit this definition.  First, it is only two axes.  Second, it 
is for home use, not industrial.  Third, I don’t know if it is reprogrammable.
 
I still consider it a robot.
 
 
Rich
 
ps:  Three or more axes?  I know x, y, and z.  What are the additional axes?
 
 
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas  >
Mike Cantwell  > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  >
David Heald  > 

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas  >
Mike Cantwell  > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  >
David Heald  > 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NEC 2017

[Doug Powell]

Have we established that the 2017 edition actually has NRTL vs Listed?

I would like to hear some clause references since it is nearly 600 pages.

Thanks,  Doug


Douglas E Powell
Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Richard Nute  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> The NEC is a model standard and intended to be adopted by local and state
> AHJs.  In doing so, the AHJs often take exception to some requirements, and
> add some requirements.  In adopting the NEC, the AHJs must specify what
> “listing” means – what third-party certifiers are acceptable to the local
> or state AHJ.  The NEC has not mentioned or specified by name a third-party
> certifier.
>
>
>
> AHJs accept third-party certifications according to their local or state
> rules.  A specific NRTL certification may or may not be currently
> acceptable.
>
>
>
> Now that the 2017 NEC specifies NRTL, it will be interesting to see how
> the local and state AHJs accept specific NRTLs, or NRTLs by standards (as
> does OSHA), or blanket all NRTLs.  Note that AHJs have different objectives
> than OSHA, who runs the NRTL program.
>
>
>
>
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>



-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[John Woodgate]

The real Susan Calvin hasn't been born yet. The Susan Calvin born in 1982 is 
her grandmother. Her daughter Anna, now 14, will marry her cousin Robert.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday Question
 
Well, it was certainly not autonomous and therefore not a robot. It was just 
projection of force from a remote location.  We have been doing this since the 
first caveman picked up a stone and chucked it at a rabbit, or another caveman. 
 It is arguable whether it is good for the republic (what’s left of it) for 
police to be able to project force in this manner against the civilian 
population, but that is not hardly an engineering issue.  

The engineering issue for a radio-controlled killing or destruction device is 
that it fail safe. Plenty of engineering precedent for that.  When they get to 
the point of killer robots who are given a mission and allowed to autonomously 
execute that mission as they best see fit, then it will be time to address much 
more complex liability issues.

 Isaac Asimov is rolling over in his grave.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


  _  

From: Doug Powell <  doug...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Doug Powell <  doug...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 14:53:02 -0600
To: <  EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Friday Question

All 

I haven't done one of these Friday questions in a few years so I thought I 
would toss one out...

With the many recent updates to safety standards that the incorporate 
provisions for safety risk assessment, I find the topic of misuse and 
intentional misuse often comes up in RA team meetings.  My question is if there 
are any valid elements within this news article that could be included in those 
meetings when working with autonomous or semi-autonomous robotics?  
 ‎ 

 
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/what-dallass-shooting-means-for-the-ethics-of-robotics/

ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable, 
multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be 
either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation applications." 
 

Now I realize the context of the news article is not industrial and possibly 
this definition needs updating.  I have had opportunity to do certification 
work with unmanned aerial robots (not drones) to UL 1740 and RIA R15_06-1999, 
both of which UL has had some involvement.  

Any thoughts?


-- 

Douglas E Powell​​

  doug...@gmail.com
  http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < 
 emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:  
 http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at  
 http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:    http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:    
http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)  
  
List rules:   
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <  sdoug...@ieee.org>
Mike Cantwell <  mcantw...@ieee.org> 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  <  j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald <  dhe...@gmail.com> 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[alfred1520list]

Hi Rich,

> ps:  Three or more axes?  I know x, y, and z.  What are the additional axes?

I've heard about six axes robots. I think they are the three translational 
axes, i.e. left/right, up/down, back/forth, and the three rotational axes which 
may not be aligned with the translational axes. Think your shoulder and arm 
give you the three translational movement, and your wrist gives you limited 
rotational movement. So a six degree robot is super human:)

On July 22, 2016 2:29:05 PM PDT, Richard Nute  wrote:
> 
>
>ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable,
>multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may
>be either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation
>applications."  
>
> 
>
>My Roomba doesn’t fit this definition.  First, it is only two axes. 
>Second, it is for home use, not industrial.  Third, I don’t know if it
>is reprogrammable.
>
> 
>
>I still consider it a robot.
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Rich
>
> 
>
>ps:  Three or more axes?  I know x, y, and z.  What are the additional
>axes?
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
>-
>
>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
>e-mail to 
>
>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
>Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
>at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
>well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
>Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>unsubscribe)
>List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
>For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>Scott Douglas 
>Mike Cantwell 
>
>For policy questions, send mail to:
>Jim Bacher:  
>David Heald: 

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[Ken Javor]

My response and Mr. Woodgate’s crossed, and are largely similar in content.

But I slightly demur on this statement:

“Since we can't even train cops (in US and even Britain) not to use lethal
force when it's totally unjustified, It will probably be a very long time
before robot AI is trustworthy enough to go armed.”

While I can’t speak for the UK, I suspect it is a largely similar situation
to the US, in that police are basically patrolling enemy territory when they
are called on to make split-second life-and-death decisions under what
amounts to battlefield conditions.  Police are meant as a “thin blue line”
to protect civilized society from a small percentage of bad actors. When
police are placed in a situation where the majority or at least a
significant minority of the surrounding population see them as an occupying
force, they (the police) are acting outside the traditional police job
description.  Just as in urban fighting in Iraq/Afghanistan, where US and
allied forces were placed in a similar untenable situation being attacked by
enemies while being hamstrung by rules protecting against collateral damage,
a very appealing solution is to remove soldiers/police and replace them with
radio-controlled substitutes.

I see this as a major growth industry in the US/UK/EC unless the lawless
element is somehow persuaded to respect the norms of civilized society, or
forcibly removed from it.  I’m betting on the “robots.”

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: John Woodgate 
Reply-To: John Woodgate 
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 22:18:10 +0100
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday Question

The definition is clearly out-of-date; it doesn't even cover an autonomous
lawn-mower. 
 
The police device wasn't a robot, let alone an autonomous one.  They could
have used an unmanned police vehicle or a shopping trolley. There are no
ethical issues beyond the general one of the justification of lethal force.
 
Autonomous robots with lethal weapons are a very different kettle of ethical
fish. Since we can't even train cops (in US and even Britain) not to use
lethal force when it's totally unjustified, It will probably be a very long
time before robot AI is trustworthy enough to go armed.
 
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk   J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 9:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Friday Question
 

All 

 

I haven't done one of these Friday questions in a few years so I thought I
would toss one out...

 

With the many recent updates to safety standards that the incorporate
provisions for safety risk assessment, I find the topic of misuse and
intentional misuse often comes up in RA team meetings.  My question is if
there are any valid elements within this news article that could be included
in those meetings when working with autonomous or semi-autonomous robotics?

 
> 
>  
> ‎http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/what-dallass-shooting-means-for-the-ethi
> cs-of-robotics/

 

ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable,
multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be
either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation
applications."  

 

Now I realize the context of the news article is not industrial and possibly
this definition needs updating.  I have had opportunity to do certification
work with unmanned aerial robots (not drones) to UL 1740 and RIA
R15_06-1999, both of which UL has had some involvement.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

-- 

 

Douglas E Powell​​

 

doug...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe) 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald 
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[John Woodgate]

Additional axes: hand, felling, chill, stone, Germany and Italy in WW2.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:29 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday Question
 
 
ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable, 
multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be 
either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation applications." 
 
 
My Roomba doesn’t fit this definition.  First, it is only two axes.  Second, it 
is for home use, not industrial.  Third, I don’t know if it is reprogrammable.
 
I still consider it a robot.
 
 
Rich
 
ps:  Three or more axes?  I know x, y, and z.  What are the additional axes?
 
 
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas  >
Mike Cantwell  > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  >
David Heald  > 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[Ken Javor]

Well, it was certainly not autonomous and therefore not a robot. It was just
projection of force from a remote location.  We have been doing this since
the first caveman picked up a stone and chucked it at a rabbit, or another
caveman.  It is arguable whether it is good for the republic (what’s left of
it) for police to be able to project force in this manner against the
civilian population, but that is not hardly an engineering issue.

The engineering issue for a radio-controlled killing or destruction device
is that it fail safe. Plenty of engineering precedent for that.  When they
get to the point of killer robots who are given a mission and allowed to
autonomously execute that mission as they best see fit, then it will be time
to address much more complex liability issues.

 Isaac Asimov is rolling over in his grave.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Doug Powell 
Reply-To: Doug Powell 
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 14:53:02 -0600
To: 
Subject: [PSES] Friday Question

All 

I haven't done one of these Friday questions in a few years so I thought I
would toss one out...

With the many recent updates to safety standards that the incorporate
provisions for safety risk assessment, I find the topic of misuse and
intentional misuse often comes up in RA team meetings.  My question is if
there are any valid elements within this news article that could be included
in those meetings when working with autonomous or semi-autonomous robotics?
 

>  ‎http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/what-dallass-shooting-means-for-the-eth
> ics-of-robotics/

ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable,
multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be
either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation
applications."  

Now I realize the context of the news article is not industrial and possibly
this definition needs updating.  I have had opportunity to do certification
work with unmanned aerial robots (not drones) to UL 1740 and RIA
R15_06-1999, both of which UL has had some involvement.  

Any thoughts?


-- 

Douglas E Powell​​

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe) 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  
David Heald 



-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[Richard Nute]

 

ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable, 
multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be 
either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation applications." 
 

 

My Roomba doesn’t fit this definition.  First, it is only two axes.  Second, it 
is for home use, not industrial.  Third, I don’t know if it is reprogrammable.

 

I still consider it a robot.

 

 

Rich

 

ps:  Three or more axes?  I know x, y, and z.  What are the additional axes?

 

 

 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NEC 2017

[Richard Nute]

 

 

The NEC is a model standard and intended to be adopted by local and state AHJs. 
 In doing so, the AHJs often take exception to some requirements, and add some 
requirements.  In adopting the NEC, the AHJs must specify what “listing” means 
– what third-party certifiers are acceptable to the local or state AHJ.  The 
NEC has not mentioned or specified by name a third-party certifier.  

 

AHJs accept third-party certifications according to their local or state rules. 
 A specific NRTL certification may or may not be currently acceptable.  

 

Now that the 2017 NEC specifies NRTL, it will be interesting to see how the 
local and state AHJs accept specific NRTLs, or NRTLs by standards (as does 
OSHA), or blanket all NRTLs.  Note that AHJs have different objectives than 
OSHA, who runs the NRTL program.

 

 

Rich

 

 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Friday Question

[John Woodgate]

The definition is clearly out-of-date; it doesn't even cover an autonomous 
lawn-mower. 
 
The police device wasn't a robot, let alone an autonomous one.  They could have 
used an unmanned police vehicle or a shopping trolley. There are no ethical 
issues beyond the general one of the justification of lethal force.
 
Autonomous robots with lethal weapons are a very different kettle of ethical 
fish. Since we can't even train cops (in US and even Britain) not to use lethal 
force when it's totally unjustified, It will probably be a very long time 
before robot AI is trustworthy enough to go armed.
 
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 9:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Friday Question
 
All 
 
I haven't done one of these Friday questions in a few years so I thought I 
would toss one out...
 
With the many recent updates to safety standards that the incorporate 
provisions for safety risk assessment, I find the topic of misuse and 
intentional misuse often comes up in RA team meetings.  My question is if there 
are any valid elements within this news article that could be included in those 
meetings when working with autonomous or semi-autonomous robotics?  
 
 
‎http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/what-dallass-shooting-means-for-the-ethics-of-robotics/
 
ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable, 
multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be 
either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation applications." 
 
 
Now I realize the context of the news article is not industrial and possibly 
this definition needs updating.  I have had opportunity to do certification 
work with unmanned aerial robots (not drones) to UL 1740 and RIA R15_06-1999, 
both of which UL has had some involvement.  
 
Any thoughts?
 
 
-- 
 
Douglas E Powell​​
 
doug...@gmail.com  
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas  >
Mike Cantwell  > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  >
David Heald  > 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Friday Question

[Doug Powell]

All

I haven't done one of these Friday questions in a few years so I thought I
would toss one out...

With the many recent updates to safety standards that the incorporate
provisions for safety risk assessment, I find the topic of misuse and
intentional misuse often comes up in RA team meetings.  My question is if
there are any valid elements within this news article that could be
included in those meetings when working with autonomous or semi-autonomous
robotics?

 ‎
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/what-dallass-shooting-means-for-the-ethics-of-robotics/


ISO 8373 defines robot as "An automatically controlled, reprogrammable,
multipurpose manipulator programmable in three or more axes, which may be
either fixed in place or mobile for use in industrial automation
applications."

Now I realize the context of the news article is not industrial and
possibly this definition needs updating.  I have had opportunity to do
certification work with unmanned aerial robots (not drones) to UL 1740 and
RIA R15_06-1999, both of which UL has had some involvement.

Any thoughts?


-- 

Douglas E Powell​​

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Compliance position New England (MA)

[Doug Powell]

I believe this position is for someone with a wide experience in product
safety.


 Anyone who is interested can call Curtis Fields at 978-887-3473 or email (
cur...@beaconengineers.com).



Curtis Fields

Beacon Engineering Resources Inc

Direct Line: 978-887-3473

Main Line: 978-887-4292 x210

Fax: 978-887-4905

Email: cur...@beaconengineers.com

Hours: M-F 8:30am-7pm EST


-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
ᐧ

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NEC 2017

[Ted Eckert]

I concur with Mr. Perkin’s assessment. The NEC has used the term “Listed” for 
quite a while without specifically connecting it to the NRTL program. It only 
had to be a “Listing” acceptable to the local AHJ, which almost always meant 
NRTL Listed. I believe the intent of is to clarify the intent of current 
practice.

In regards to Mr. Powell’s comments; the AHJ will normally sign off before many 
plug-connected appliances are installed. Most of the AHJ inspection will cover 
appliances attached to building structure which are largely covered by the NRTL 
program. There are installations where this will be a problem as noted below. 
However, I don’t expect most AHJs to know which products are covered by the 
NRTL program and which are not. The AHJ will likely accept an approval mark by 
a test lab in the NRTL program even if that test lab doesn’t have the standard 
for that product within the scope of their NRTL registration.

The question I have is whether there has been a problem with products being 
released with a Listing mark from a test lab that does not have NRTL approval 
for the standard being certified when that standard is covered by the NRTL? In 
other words, have any AHJs accepted products with meaningless Listing marks for 
products covered under the NRTL program?


Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEC 2017

I need to read the 2017 edition as well.

Requiring NRTL simply seems wrong, if only because not all appliance standards 
are available under the NRTL program 
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/list_standards.html.

I am presently working on certifying a UL 1973 product and will have to settle 
for the agency monogram but no NRTL. I am certain there are many more product 
types like this.

In addition, the first 1/4th of that listing of standards are not UL standards 
at all. It would seem that if OSHA is able to understand this nuance, then NFPA 
and AHJs should be able to understand this as well.

All the best, Doug

Douglas E Powell
‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


‎

From: Pete Perkins
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Pete Perkins
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEC 2017



Dave, et al,.

This is not a new requirement for the NEC.  In the past the NEC 
required that all equipment be Labeled [Art 100 definition] by an organization 
acceptable to the AHJ indicating compliance with appropriate standards ...  The 
Handbook explanation also adds a reference to Art 90.7 which  is an examination 
of equipment for safety.



I haven't read the 2017 NEC but you claim that NRTL has been added.  If 
so, I'm not surprised as this is just a clarification to what has been 
understood for years.

As has been discussed before, Americans are quick to promulgate rules 
but reluctant to spend anything on enforcement.  OSHA invokes the NRTL cert 
requirement for equipment used in the workplace.  Other enforcement is mixed; 
much enforcement is primarily left to the legal system in that any manufacturer 
that has a serious problem with a product that causes harm will have to hang 
their head in shame and admit that the product doesn't even meet the minimum 
safety requirements for that class of products.  Under the present conditions 
it seems that the manufacturer would end up paying maybe U$ 2Million if someone 
dies from the product deficiency.  At what level does this become an incentive 
to the manufacturer to get the product NRTL approved?  If you have a number in 
mind I bet that the ambulance chasing lawyers would like to use it in their 
claims for damage.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 2:55 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEC 2017

The 2017 NEC will require all appliances to be NRTL listed.  I wonder how that 
will be enforced?  Individual states  adopt the NEC into law.   I don't know 
what the actual state statutes look like for the current NEC, I imagine 
specific statutes would need to be written to deal with this new requirement, 
assuming the states adopt it.  Doesn't make sense to enforce that on the 
consumer/owner on the manner that OSHA enforces workplace compliance on the 
workplace owner.   Appliances present during a AHJ inspection could be checked 
but that would be a very small percentage of appliances.  The requirement would 
have to be put on the in-state retailers which probably couldn't be enforced on 
out of state 

[PSES] Job announcement

[Kevin Robinson]

Hello all
I wanted to make you aware of a job opening at OSHA in the NRTL program office 
for an electrical engineer and auditor.  
The announcement can be found here. 
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/445451700. 
Kevin Robinson

Get Outlook for iOS

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NEC 2017

[Doug Powell]

Title: RE: [PSES] NEC 2017
  I need to read the 2017 edition as well. Requiring NRTL simply seems wrong, if only because not all appliance standards are available under the NRTL program https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/list_standards.html. I am presently working on certifying a UL 1973 product and will have to settle for the agency monogram but no NRTL. I am certain there are many more product types like this.  In addition, the first 1/4th of that listing of standards are not UL standards at all. It would seem that if OSHA is able to understand this nuance, then NFPA and AHJs should be able to understand this as well.   All the best, DougDouglas E Powell‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 â€ŽFrom: Pete PerkinsSent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:46 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: Pete PerkinsSubject: Re: [PSES] NEC 2017









Dave, et al,.  

    This is not a new requirement for the NEC.  In the past the NEC required that all equipment be Labeled [Art 100 definition] by an organization acceptable to the AHJ indicating compliance with appropriate standards ...  The Handbook explanation also adds a reference to Art 90.7 which  is an examination of equipment for safety.  

 

    I haven't read the 2017 NEC but you claim that NRTL has been added.  If so, I'm not surprised as this is just a clarification to what has been understood for years.  

    As has been discussed before, Americans are quick to promulgate rules but reluctant to spend anything on enforcement.  OSHA invokes the NRTL cert requirement for equipment used in the workplace.  Other enforcement is mixed; much enforcement is primarily left to the legal system in that any manufacturer that has a serious problem with a product that causes harm will have to hang their head in shame and admit that the product doesn't even meet the minimum safety requirements for that class of products.  Under the present conditions it seems that the manufacturer would end up paying maybe U$ 2Million if someone dies from the product deficiency.  At what level does this become an incentive to the manufacturer to get the product NRTL approved?  If you have a number in mind I bet that the ambulance chasing lawyers would like to use it in their claims for damage.  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org



-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 2:55 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEC 2017

The 2017 NEC will require all appliances to be NRTL listed.  I wonder how that will be enforced?  Individual states  adopt the NEC into law.   I don't know what the actual state statutes look like for the current NEC, I imagine specific statutes would need to be written to deal with this new requirement, assuming the states adopt it.  Doesn't make sense to enforce that on the consumer/owner on the manner that OSHA enforces workplace compliance on the workplace owner.   Appliances present during a AHJ inspection could be checked but that would be a very small percentage of appliances.  The requirement would have to be put on the in-state retailers which probably couldn't be enforced on out of state shippers the same way that collecting sales tax from out of state shippers is challenged.   Perhaps it could be made to apply to manufacturers within the state.  Perhaps it can be enforced at the federal level for imports that have to clear customs.

-Dave

-



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/

Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:

Scott Douglas 

Mike 

Re: [PSES] RoHS and CE Discussion for component

[Graevinghoff Andreas (ETAS/EHS2)]

Hello Mark,

Regarding the EMCD:  You need to determine whether your component is considered 
"apparatus" in the sense of the EMCD or whether it is excluded from the scope 
of EMCD.

The EU guide to the EMCD contains a nice flowchart to help you determine 
whether your component is in the scope of the EMCD and which set of 
requirements applies.

Should the component be in the scope of the EMCD, the requirements go way 
beyond just "good engineering practice", see the new EMCD for a full list of 
requirements.


Best regards,

Dr. Andreas Grävinghoff

ETAS GmbH
Engineering Product Development Hardware (EHS2)
Borsigstraße 14
70469 Stuttgart
Germany
http://www.etas.com

Phone  +49 711 3423-2600
Please note that our telephone numbers have changed.
andreas.graevingh...@etas.com

Managing Directors: Friedhelm Pickhard, Bernd Hergert, Christopher White
Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Dr. Walter Schirm
Registered Office: Stuttgart; Registration Court: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB 
19033




From: Mark Schmidt [mailto:markschm...@xrite.com]
Sent: Donnerstag, 21. Juli 2016 22:55
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] RoHS and CE Discussion for component

Hello group,

I am having discussions with my team here in Michigan about what mandatory 
marks need to be on a device or component that is currently being developed. It 
will be a small measurement device rated 5 VDC @ 1.2 A. The device/component 
goes into a larger (ITE) system which will require to bear the appropriate 
marks for its intended markets. The component in question's power will come 
from the larger system and our user manual will recommend the use of an LPS for 
this device. This device will meet the EMC requirements of EN55032 (above 
9kHz)and FCC part 15. The construction of this component will meet EN60950 
construction requirements. It is actually an aluminum housing utilizing 94V-0 
rated pcb's.

The only thing we plan to ship is the component and a user/installation manual. 
Since this device will also meet the RoHS Directive requirements I am being 
told we need to apply a CE mark on the component because it is a requirement of 
the RoHS Directive. In addition since we plan on meeting the EMC Directive 
requirements (good engineering practices) we must label the component with the 
CE Mark and generate a DoC to the EMC and RoHS Directive. We have received zero 
inputs or requests from our potential OEM's that will incorporate this 
component in their product. So I am looking for advice as to what the real 
requirement might be.

Applied due diligence yes, mandatory markings  I am struggling with.

Any input you can offer is welcome.

Mark
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas >
Mike Cantwell >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher >
David Heald >

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: