Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated Spurious Emission

[Bill Owsley]

You do have the FCC KDB article 
558074 D01 DTS Meas Guidance v04  
It is a mind bender of various methods...

  From: Grace Lin 
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 4:10 PM
 Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated 
Spurious Emission
   
Dear Members,
Please find the following responses from FCC and ISED for your reference.
FCC:"A RMS detector must beused."
ISED:"This would be acceptable with ISED if the duty cycle is 
inherentcharacteristic to the fundamental emission and is constant in the 
livenetwork.  If the duty cycle in a live network is variable then this 
wouldnot be an acceptable method as the true duty cycle could not be 
determined."
Thank you very much!
Best regards,Grace Lin

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Grace Lin  wrote:

Dear Members,
For digital transmission system (DTS), is it acceptable forradiated emission 
measurement (EUT is configured to transmit continuously) taken with Peak 
detector for peak data and use duty cycle correctionfactor (DCCF) to obtain 
average data (instead of using RMS detector to obtainaverage data)? Thank you 
very much for your time and we look forward toyour guidance.
Best regards,Grace Lin

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Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated Spurious Emission

[Bill Owsley]

That is far too simple for the guidance in the procedure.
ps.  most SA's today can be made to do several types of average.
If the TCB accepts it, you are good.


  From: Grace Lin 
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
 Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:25 PM
 Subject: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated 
Spurious Emission
   
Dear Members,
For digital transmission system (DTS), is it acceptable forradiated emission 
measurement (EUT is configured to transmit continuously) taken with Peak 
detector for peak data and use duty cycle correctionfactor (DCCF) to obtain 
average data (instead of using RMS detector to obtainaverage data)? Thank you 
very much for your time and we look forward toyour guidance.
Best regards,Grace Lin-

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Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Pete Perkins]

Peter, et al,

Well, that says it all.  

The instrumentation folks never expected the traditional body model
circuit (now called eBurn circuit) to be used in the traditional way
measuring leakage currents as it has been used for 50 years.  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 3:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

This afternoon's update: the resolution of the inductive current probes I
have are limited to 10 Ma. All currents look like noise.


Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Tarver
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 09:29
>
> Thank you, Pete.
>
> I have received an initial response from Kikusui requesting additional 
> information about the EUT and the test setup.
>
> I haven't looked at the waveforms yet, other than voltage.
> That's on the docket.
>
> Regarding the matter of scale, (as I'm sure you're aware) the Simpson 
> 228 uses multiple measurement networks and was the first commercially 
> available leakage current meter to address UL 1459 requirements. The 
> Burn Hazard setting (corresponding to 61010-1, Figure A.3, and the 
> Kikusui TOS3200, Network A) is 100 mA full scale and I am trying to 
> measure current below 1 mA.
>
> For shock hazard (Let Go and Reaction), the scale is OK.
>
>
> Peter Tarver

The information contained in this message may be privileged and
confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to
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Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Peter Tarver]

This afternoon's update: the resolution of the inductive current probes I have 
are limited to 10 Ma. All currents look like noise.


Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Tarver
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 09:29
>
> Thank you, Pete.
>
> I have received an initial response from Kikusui requesting
> additional information about the EUT and the test setup.
>
> I haven't looked at the waveforms yet, other than voltage.
> That's on the docket.
>
> Regarding the matter of scale, (as I'm sure you're aware) the
> Simpson 228 uses multiple measurement networks and was
> the first commercially available leakage current meter to
> address UL 1459 requirements. The Burn Hazard setting
> (corresponding to 61010-1, Figure A.3, and the Kikusui
> TOS3200, Network A) is 100 mA full scale and I am trying to
> measure current below 1 mA.
>
> For shock hazard (Let Go and Reaction), the scale is OK.
>
>
> Peter Tarver

The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. 
It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is 
addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the 
intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in 
any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, 
please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this 
message!

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Re: [PSES] Interior lighting for large control panels

[Doug Powell]

All thank you for your replies.

This is pretty much what I anticipated.  My certification engineer made an
off hand comment of how NFPA 70 Art. 410 requires it.  However, in reading
all 160 subsections I found again that that the text of the code more or
less assumes that if you provide lighting here is how it must be done.  In
no place did I find anything that says "*thou shalt provide lighting*".

The agency engineers are supposed to be the "go to" experts but I find they
are much like the rest of us mere mortals in that they sometimes miss on
the details.

All the best, Doug




On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Doug Powell  wrote:

> All,
>
> I just finished reviewing older editions of UL 508 (2005) and UL 508A
> (2003) for any requirements specifically for interior lighting of large
> cabinets.  This would be for cabinets large enough to be a container with
> personnel doors.  I do see requirements for how to implement "maintenance
> lighting" if provided but not a requirement specifically stating
> maintenance lighting "shall be provided". Also, if the latest editions of
> the UL standards now include sections on risk assessment, I can see how a
> maintenance person who is inadvertently entrapped (e.g. wind closed the
> door) would then could become disoriented and egress lighting would be
> important to mitigate the hazard.
>
> Any guidance on mandatory lighting requirements for maintenance is greatly
> appreciated.
>
> ​Thanks,  Doug
>
> ​
>
> --
>
> Douglas E Powell
>
> doug...@gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
>



-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

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Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated Spurious Emission

[Ralph McDiarmid]

And, why wouldn’t the standard simply provide limits for peak detection and for 
average detection?  Why the special treatment for DTS I wonder.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 1:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated 
Spurious Emission

For a continuous DTS, aren't peak and RMS equal?

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/ J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Grace Lin [mailto:graceli...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2017 21:11
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated 
Spurious Emission

Dear Members,

Please find the following responses from FCC and ISED for your reference.

FCC:
"A RMS detector must be used."

ISED:
"
This would be acceptable with ISED if the duty cycle is inherent characteristic 
to the fundamental emission and is constant in the live network.  If the duty 
cycle in a live network is variable then this would not be an acceptable method 
as the true duty cycle could not be determined.
"

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Grace Lin


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Grace Lin  wrote:
Dear Members,

For digital transmission system (DTS), is it acceptable for radiated emission 
measurement (EUT is configured to transmit continuously)  taken with Peak 
detector for peak data and use duty cycle correction factor (DCCF) to obtain 
average data (instead of using RMS detector to obtain average data)?
 
Thank you very much for your time and we look forward to your guidance.

Best regards,
Grace Lin

-

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Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated Spurious Emission

[John Woodgate]

For a continuous DTS, aren't peak and RMS equal?

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only

  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

From: Grace Lin [mailto:graceli...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2017 21:11
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated 
Spurious Emission

 

Dear Members,

 

Please find the following responses from FCC and ISED for your reference.

 

FCC:

"A RMS detector must be used."

 

ISED:

"

This would be acceptable with ISED if the duty cycle is inherent characteristic 
to the fundamental emission and is constant in the live network.  If the duty 
cycle in a live network is variable then this would not be an acceptable method 
as the true duty cycle could not be determined.

"

 

Thank you very much!

 

Best regards,

Grace Lin

 

 

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Grace Lin  > wrote:

Dear Members,

 

For digital transmission system (DTS), is it acceptable for radiated emission 
measurement (EUT is configured to transmit continuously)  taken with Peak 
detector for peak data and use duty cycle correction factor (DCCF) to obtain 
average data (instead of using RMS detector to obtain average data)?

 

Thank you very much for your time and we look forward to your guidance.

 

Best regards,

Grace Lin

 

-


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 >

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Mike Cantwell  > 

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Re: [PSES] FCC DTS Measurement Procedure - FCC KDB 558074 - Radiated Spurious Emission

[Grace Lin]

Dear Members,

Please find the following responses from FCC and ISED for your reference.

FCC:
"A RMS detector must be used."

ISED:
"

This would be acceptable with ISED if the duty cycle is inherent
characteristic to the fundamental emission and is constant in the live
network.  If the duty cycle in a live network is variable then this would
not be an acceptable method as the true duty cycle could not be determined.
"

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Grace Lin


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Grace Lin  wrote:

> Dear Members,
>
> For digital transmission system (DTS), is it acceptable for radiated
> emission measurement (EUT is configured to transmit continuously)  taken
> with Peak detector for peak data and use duty cycle correction factor
> (DCCF) to obtain average data (instead of using RMS detector to obtain
> average data)?
>
>
>
> Thank you very much for your time and we look forward to your guidance.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Grace Lin
>

-

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Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Pete Perkins]

Peter,

Thanx for the clarification.  

Yes, the Simpson 228 does set the eBurn measurement up on a 100
mArms scale (which fits well with a 70mArms at hi freq spec as used in some
standards - at 70mArms at HF the line freq value would be ooo 17.5mArms
which would be readable on the 100 mArms scale).  Working at 1 mArms or so
is down in the mud for that circuit; the value provided on the output
circuit is also at the noise limit for the amplifier, as I have shown in the
PSES/ISPCE demo done in the past.

This eBurn circuit is also the IEC basic body model circuit which
has been used for leakage current measurements for more than 50 years in IEC
standards - when these were primarily sinusoidal waveforms at line
frequency.  It worked well for these measurements.  The UL circuit has a
similar topology but different R and C values; it would provide similar
results as has been shown many times in the past. 

There will be a paper on this measurement and circuit in the next
PSE Newsletter (it's in the hopper now so look for it when the PSE News is
next published).  

We're all awaiting your completion of the evaluation and you
providing feedback on the experience and results from your work.  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 9:29 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

Thank you, Pete.

I have received an initial response from Kikusui requesting additional
information about the EUT and the test setup.

I haven't looked at the waveforms yet, other than voltage. That's on the
docket.

Regarding the matter of scale, (as I'm sure you're aware) the Simpson 228
uses multiple measurement networks and was the first commercially available
leakage current meter to address UL 1459 requirements. The Burn Hazard
setting (corresponding to 61010-1, Figure A.3, and the Kikusui TOS3200,
Network A) is 100 mA full scale and I am trying to measure current below 1
mA.

For shock hazard (Let Go and Reaction), the scale is OK.


Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Pete Perkins
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 23:17
>
> Peter,
>
> Altho I have no experience with the Kikusui meter, I believe that you 
> are on the right track chasing these differences.
>
> Since you have a Simpson 228 are you using a scope to look at the 
> waveforms and get the readings for the scope display?  In my work with 
> that meter I always looked at the scope display because of the better 
> numerical resolution from the scope display.  If you have looked at 
> the collexion of scope pix provided on safetylink you will see these 
> details in each scope display - the waveforms as well as the digital 
> readout of rms and pk-pk values.
>
> Not sure what your measured touch current is when you say the 228 
> doesn't have the sensitivity you need.  The 0.3mA scale should easily 
> read down to <0.03mA (<30uA) or below.  Or is it you can't read the 
> differences between two measurements on the meter face?  Use your 
> scope reading to get the numerical values, as discussed above.
>
> Not sure whether or not you can get scope waveform pix from the 
> Kikusui unit.
>
> Unfortunately, the use of complex equipment takes some training and/or 
> experience to get the correct result each time.  The mfgr makes it 
> sound so easy but the proof is in the use pudding.
>

The information contained in this message may be privileged and
confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to
whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this
message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy
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Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Peter Tarver]

Thank you, Pete.

I have received an initial response from Kikusui requesting additional 
information about the EUT and the test setup.

I haven't looked at the waveforms yet, other than voltage. That's on the docket.

Regarding the matter of scale, (as I'm sure you're aware) the Simpson 228 uses 
multiple measurement networks and was the first commercially available leakage 
current meter to address UL 1459 requirements. The Burn Hazard setting 
(corresponding to 61010-1, Figure A.3, and the Kikusui TOS3200, Network A) is 
100 mA full scale and I am trying to measure current below 1 mA.

For shock hazard (Let Go and Reaction), the scale is OK.


Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Pete Perkins
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 23:17
>
> Peter,
>
> Altho I have no experience with the Kikusui meter, I
> believe that
> you are on the right track chasing these differences.
>
> Since you have a Simpson 228 are you using a scope
> to look at the
> waveforms and get the readings for the scope display?  In
> my work with that
> meter I always looked at the scope display because of the
> better numerical
> resolution from the scope display.  If you have looked at the
> collexion of
> scope pix provided on safetylink you will see these details in
> each scope
> display - the waveforms as well as the digital readout of rms
> and pk-pk
> values.
>
> Not sure what your measured touch current is when
> you say the 228
> doesn't have the sensitivity you need.  The 0.3mA scale
> should easily read
> down to <0.03mA (<30uA) or below.  Or is it you can't read
> the differences
> between two measurements on the meter face?  Use your
> scope reading to get
> the numerical values, as discussed above.
>
> Not sure whether or not you can get scope
> waveform pix from the
> Kikusui unit.
>
> Unfortunately, the use of complex equipment takes
> some training
> and/or experience to get the correct result each time.  The
> mfgr makes it
> sound so easy but the proof is in the use pudding.
>

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Re: [PSES] Interior lighting for large control panels

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Also note that there are rules in the standards for maintenance lighting 
circuits which are not de-energized with the main disconnect switch.  Again, 
the non-de-energized circuits are not required, but permitted.

-Dave

From: Douglas Nix [mailto:d...@mac.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 2:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Interior lighting for large control panels

Doug,

None of the machinery standards require lighting in the panel, they simply 
permit it where the designer wants to use it, and provide rules for the 
installation should you choose to install it. A risk assessment should be the 
deciding factor, and any customer preferences for the provision of lighting. 
Have a look at the questionnaire provided in the Annexes to IEC 60204-1 for 
development of the electrical system specification - I think you’ll get the 
idea.

--
Doug Nix
d...@mac.com
(519) 729-5704

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all 
we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and 
all there ever will be to know and understand."

Albert Einstein

On 20-Apr-17, at 23:42, Doug Powell 
> wrote:

All,

I just finished reviewing older editions of UL 508 (2005) and UL 508A (2003) 
for any requirements specifically for interior lighting of large cabinets.  
This would be for cabinets large enough to be a container with personnel doors. 
 I do see requirements for how to implement "maintenance lighting" if provided 
but not a requirement specifically stating maintenance lighting "shall be 
provided". Also, if the latest editions of the UL standards now include 
sections on risk assessment, I can see how a maintenance person who is 
inadvertently entrapped (e.g. wind closed the door) would then could become 
disoriented and egress lighting would be important to mitigate the hazard.

Any guidance on mandatory lighting requirements for maintenance is greatly 
appreciated.

​Thanks,  Doug

​

--

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
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>
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>

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For help, 

Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Pete Perkins]

Peter,

Altho I have no experience with the Kikusui meter, I believe that
you are on the right track chasing these differences.  

Since you have a Simpson 228 are you using a scope to look at the
waveforms and get the readings for the scope display?  In my work with that
meter I always looked at the scope display because of the better numerical
resolution from the scope display.  If you have looked at the collexion of
scope pix provided on safetylink you will see these details in each scope
display - the waveforms as well as the digital readout of rms and pk-pk
values.  

Not sure what your measured touch current is when you say the 228
doesn't have the sensitivity you need.  The 0.3mA scale should easily read
down to <0.03mA (<30uA) or below.  Or is it you can't read the differences
between two measurements on the meter face?  Use your scope reading to get
the numerical values, as discussed above.  

Not sure whether or not you can get scope waveform pix from the
Kikusui unit.  

Unfortunately, the use of complex equipment takes some training
and/or experience to get the correct result each time.  The mfgr makes it
sound so easy but the proof is in the use pudding.  

Hopefully you can quickly straighten out the measurement confusion
and get proper answers.  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

Thank you, Nute.

Page 70 of the manual indicates the ability to select a measuring network.
According to the first paragraph on this page, it's a meter only for voltage
measurements. Page 71 shows how to select a measurement network when using
meter mode.

FWIW, I used Networks A, B and G on Page 114 and can see the effects of
frequency filtering between these networks.

Also FWIW, I have a Simpson 228 and see similar results to meter mode
measurements, though the levels are below the resolution of the 228 to
accurately read the result.

Because the EUT is double insulated, the PE is always "faulted." I can't use
the faceplate outlet for PCC (Protective Conductor Current) measurements,
but I can for touch current measurements.


Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Richard
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:42
>
> Hello Peter:
>
> I downloaded the TOS3200 manual to better understand your problem.
>
> When the TOS3200 is in "meter mode," the terminals A-B comprise an 
> ammeter (without the body impedance network).  This will yield a 
> higher current than in the TC (touch current) mode.  I'm not sure if 
> A-B can have the body impedance network switched in, although this is 
> implied in Figure 4-11.
>
> For a two-wire (double-insulated) product, there is no earth wire so 
> you cannot use the outlet for the measurement.  You must use the A-B 
> terminals.
> The connections to a two-wire product are shown in "b" of Figure 4-7.

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