Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Michael Derby]

Labelling is an interesting topic, though also a source of great frustration
it seems.   In response to a couple of the comments below..


>>> As a consumer, why do I need to know the meaning of EMC and Radio
markings?
>>> As a consumer, I only need to know efficiency ratings at the time I
choose the appliance/equipment.

I wonder how many people understand the Alert Symbol (!) of the R&TTE
Directive.   When you see the Alert Symbol on your radio product (such as on
most mobile phones, wireless internet, UWB devices, etc.), it is often there
to alert the user that there is a restriction of use for the product.
The user then knows (???) to go to the user manual and read the restrictions
of their device before they power it on.
.right?   :-)


>>> Such ratings need not be a permanent part of the equipment, but can be
on a disposable tag.  There is no post-purchase need for such data.

One word. "e-bay"
:-)
Do we all buy our products new, from the original supplier?


Just to stir the pot,

Michael.



Michael Derby
Regulatory Engineer
ACB Europe


-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: 28 January 2012 20:39
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Hi Peter:


> I believe rating markings, energy efficiency ratings, EMC and Radio 
> markings should be harmonized worldwide and governments/regulators 
> should be involved to train consumers the meaning these markings.

As a consumer, why do I need to know the meaning of EMC and Radio markings?

As a consumer, I only need to know efficiency ratings at the time I choose
the appliance/equipment.
Such ratings need not be a permanent part of the equipment, but can be on a
disposable tag.  There is no post-purchase need for such data.

As a consumer, I simply plug the equipment into the wall outlet.  The
equipment is pre-configured for voltage and is provided with the proper plug
for my house.  I don't need to know voltage, current, watts, or frequency
ratings of the equipment.

If a house circuit-breaker trips when I turn on my equipment, I may need to
know the current or power rating of my equipment in order to balance the
load on the circuit.

So, who are the rating markings for?  The certifiers and regulators.  The
ratings could just as well be in the accompanying documents.


Best regards,
Rich
;-)

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Richard Nute]

   

Ha!
  
The rating markings are for the test house to 
determine whether the primary components are
suitably rated!
  
;-)


   

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Peter Merguerian]

The radio, emc and rating markings are needed to be harmonized between 
countries so manufacturers can minimize the space on their labels. Currently 
what most manufacturers do is hire my services to find them the most common 
denominator. They then design label skews to meet their marketing requirements.

Ratings are required in the same way as most of us have a passport or two. Same 
with equipment. They may be good for one country but as they get hauled to 
different countries (my friends move around a lot), they must use precautions 
to use the proper adaptor or not.

Best Regards

Peter

Sent from my iPhone

Peter S. Merguerian
pe...@goglobalcompliance.com
Go Global Compliance Inc.
www.goglobalcompliance.com
(408) 931-3303

On Jan 28, 2012, at 12:39 PM, "Richard Nute"  wrote:

> Hi Peter:
> 
> 
>> I believe rating markings, energy efficiency ratings, EMC and 
>> Radio markings should be harmonized worldwide and 
>> governments/regulators should be involved to train consumers 
>> the meaning these markings. 
> 
> As a consumer, why do I need to know the meaning
> of EMC and Radio markings?
> 
> As a consumer, I only need to know efficiency
> ratings at the time I choose the appliance/equipment.
> Such ratings need not be a permanent part of the
> equipment, but can be on a disposable tag.  There is
> no post-purchase need for such data.
> 
> As a consumer, I simply plug the equipment into the
> wall outlet.  The equipment is pre-configured for
> voltage and is provided with the proper plug for 
> my house.  I don't need to know voltage, current,
> watts, or frequency ratings of the equipment.
> 
> If a house circuit-breaker trips when I turn on my
> equipment, I may need to know the current or power
> rating of my equipment in order to balance the load
> on the circuit.
> 
> So, who are the rating markings for?  The certifiers
> and regulators.  The ratings could just as well be
> in the accompanying documents.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Rich
> ;-)
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[McInturff, Gary]

As I understand it, it's so the installer, even consumer type stuff - knows how 
many amps are being pulled for this unit, as well as plugging it into the 
correct voltage.

Gary

From: ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com 
[mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 11:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings


But electrical equipment does on occasion get moved and reinstalled, so the 
nameplate provides information
which might otherwise be lost.  ( as in the all important and rarely read user 
instruction manual).
___

Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  |   
Regulatory Compliance Engineering


From:

John Woodgate 

To:

EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Date:

01/28/2012 01:36 PM

Subject:

Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings






In message <7BAE23D8F53F4BC1AA15CD43A55E162B@RichardHPdv6>, dated Sat,
28 Jan 2012, Richard Nute  writes:

>Of course.  But, as I said before, why do I need to know the ratings?
>Especially after the equipment is installed?

I agree entirely. Let's take the requirement out of 60950-1, 60065 and
62389-1 immediately. No-one will object, of course, because it's so
logical and self-evident!(;-)
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Ralph . McDiarmid]

But electrical equipment does on occasion get moved and reinstalled, so 
the nameplate provides information 
which might otherwise be lost.  ( as in the all important and rarely read 
user instruction manual).
___ 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  | 
  Regulatory Compliance Engineering




From:
John Woodgate 
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:
01/28/2012 01:36 PM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings



In message <7BAE23D8F53F4BC1AA15CD43A55E162B@RichardHPdv6>, dated Sat, 
28 Jan 2012, Richard Nute  writes:

>Of course.  But, as I said before, why do I need to know the ratings? 
>Especially after the equipment is installed?

I agree entirely. Let's take the requirement out of 60950-1, 60065 and 
62389-1 immediately. No-one will object, of course, because it's so 
logical and self-evident!(;-)
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking 
of
biting a rook.

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Kevin Robinson]

For consumer grade equipment, one might argue that you could do away with
ratings and assume that if you purchase something from you local retailer
it will work in your home, however, for permanently connected equipment and
for more industrial/commercial equipment, I think the need for electrical
ratings is more important, especially in the global society that we now
live in.  Personally, I feel that electrical ratings on the product are
still important.  Do I look at them when I purchase some consumer
electronics from my local retailer, not always, but I do consider the
current/power ratings when deciding where to plug in certain appliances, or
if I do trip a circuit when my daughter is using the curling iron, my wife
is using the hair dryer, and I am ironing a shirt all at the same time.

I also think that electrical ratings on the product get people to ask the
question "Can I use this when I travel to a foreign country?"  I can't
count the times that I have been asked by coworkers or family members who
were planning a trip from the US to Europe if they could use their personal
grooming appliance or laptop computer or cell phone charger while traveling
if the electrical ratings on the product were ___.   Most consumers
don't know a Volt from an Amp or how they relate, but they do know they are
important and will seek out the answer when it is important.

Kevin Robinson

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Richard Nute  wrote:

> > >The ratings could just as well be in the accompanying documents.
> >
> > ... which are thrown away, no, sorry, *recycled*, with the packaging.
>
> Of course.  But, as I said before, why do I
> need to know the ratings?  Especially after
> the equipment is installed?
>
> Most manufacturers now provide e-copies on the
> web.  So, I can get most any accompanying
> documents at any time.
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
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>
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> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
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>
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>
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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Doug Powell]

This discussion has become interesting.

Possibly ratings are common knowledge and possibly not.  I'm sure everyone has 
an awareness of ratings, but do they have an understanding?  And if they don't, 
do ratings serve any purpose for the end user?  

I suggest most people understand they must match the voltage of devices to the 
place they plug it in.  Even children understand batteries have polarity and 
must go in a certain way.  But I've met people who do not know what a volt is 
and are somewhat intimidated or even frightened by it.  On a recent trip to 
Israel we heard of an individual who plugged their electronic device into a 
power outlet of a different rating and completely ruined it.  They said, "It 
was only plugged in for a second." Have you noticed,  energy efficiency has 
been all the rage, mainly because of the press and tax incentives, but what 
does it really mean to the average consumer?  High efficiency is better, right? 
 

Recently my wife was shopping for a new kitchen mixer and one of her criteria 
was it must have a high number of amps.  She had managed to connect amps with 
horsepower.  When I asked if she knew what it all meant, she admitted the 
answer was no.  But it was a way for her to do comparison shopping.

In the end, it's most likely about mitigating liability.  Both for the 
manufacturer and the certifying agency.   The almost exponential increase in 
product warnings over the last few decades is another indication of this.  The 
saying used to be caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.  Now, I believe it is 
caveat venditor, let the seller beware.


Doug

Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01





Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: John Shinn 
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:17:37 
To: 
Reply-To: John Shinn 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

The issue is that you said "most", not "all".

John Shinn

-Original Message- 
From: Richard Nute
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 1:23 PM
To: 'John Woodgate' ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

> >The ratings could just as well be in the accompanying documents.
>
> ... which are thrown away, no, sorry, *recycled*, with the packaging.

Of course.  But, as I said before, why do I
need to know the ratings?  Especially after
the equipment is installed?

Most manufacturers now provide e-copies on the
web.  So, I can get most any accompanying
documents at any time.

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[John Shinn]

The issue is that you said "most", not "all".

John Shinn

-Original Message- 
From: Richard Nute

Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 1:23 PM
To: 'John Woodgate' ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings


>The ratings could just as well be in the accompanying documents.

... which are thrown away, no, sorry, *recycled*, with the packaging.


Of course.  But, as I said before, why do I
need to know the ratings?  Especially after
the equipment is installed?

Most manufacturers now provide e-copies on the
web.  So, I can get most any accompanying
documents at any time.

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[John Woodgate]

In message <7BAE23D8F53F4BC1AA15CD43A55E162B@RichardHPdv6>, dated Sat, 
28 Jan 2012, Richard Nute  writes:


Of course.  But, as I said before, why do I need to know the ratings? 
Especially after the equipment is installed?


I agree entirely. Let's take the requirement out of 60950-1, 60065 and 
62389-1 immediately. No-one will object, of course, because it's so 
logical and self-evident!(;-)

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Richard Nute]

> >The ratings could just as well be in the accompanying documents.
> 
> ... which are thrown away, no, sorry, *recycled*, with the packaging.

Of course.  But, as I said before, why do I
need to know the ratings?  Especially after 
the equipment is installed?

Most manufacturers now provide e-copies on the
web.  So, I can get most any accompanying 
documents at any time.

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[John Woodgate]

In message , dated Sat, 
28 Jan 2012, Richard Nute  writes:



The ratings could just as well be in the accompanying documents.


... which are thrown away, no, sorry, *recycled*, with the packaging.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Richard Nute]

Hi Peter:


> I believe rating markings, energy efficiency ratings, EMC and 
> Radio markings should be harmonized worldwide and 
> governments/regulators should be involved to train consumers 
> the meaning these markings. 

As a consumer, why do I need to know the meaning
of EMC and Radio markings?

As a consumer, I only need to know efficiency
ratings at the time I choose the appliance/equipment.
Such ratings need not be a permanent part of the
equipment, but can be on a disposable tag.  There is
no post-purchase need for such data.

As a consumer, I simply plug the equipment into the
wall outlet.  The equipment is pre-configured for
voltage and is provided with the proper plug for 
my house.  I don't need to know voltage, current,
watts, or frequency ratings of the equipment.

If a house circuit-breaker trips when I turn on my
equipment, I may need to know the current or power
rating of my equipment in order to balance the load
on the circuit.

So, who are the rating markings for?  The certifiers
and regulators.  The ratings could just as well be
in the accompanying documents.


Best regards,
Rich
;-)

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Peter Merguerian]

Rich and all

I believe rating markings, energy efficiency ratings, EMC and Radio markings 
should be harmonized worldwide and governments/regulators should be involved to 
train consumers the meaning these markings. There is no reason why one country 
requires the ratings to be in traditional Chinese, another in simplified 
Chinese, another requiring comma instead of decimal hence two ratings, etc. I 
just checked the label on my new TV and it has so many markings and characters 
that is making me very dizzy. My old TV label is so much less populated and 
more readable. 




Sent from my iPhone

Peter S. Merguerian
pe...@goglobalcompliance.com
Go Global Compliance Inc.
www.goglobalcompliance.com
(408) 931-3303

On Jan 27, 2012, at 12:46 PM, "Richard Nute"  wrote:

> My nifty Samsung TV is rated 100-240, 50/60 Hz.  
> 
> Per the discussion here:
> 
>100-240 indicates a continuous range;
>50/60 Hz implies two discrete switchable ranges.
> 
> As mentioned in this discussion, 50/60 implies a
> range of frequencies between 50 and 60 where the
> TV would not operate.  Of course, as everyone 
> recognizes, there is no switch for frequency.  And,
> the TV would operate at any frequency between 50
> and 60.
> 
> Even among ourselves (product safety professionals), 
> we do not apply the rating markings consistently.  
> 
> There is no justification for expecting the user
> to distinguish between a - and a /.  The user buys
> an appliance locally, and it comes with a cord an
> plug for local use.  The markings are not read 
> prior to installation.  Neither do the installation
> instructions instruct the user to check the ratings
> before installation.  The manufacturer does this 
> for the user by shipping a fully configured product 
> to the retailer.
> 
> Table lamps don't have rating markings.
> 
> What, then, is the value of the ratings markings?
> 
> For that matter, what is the safety function of the
> ratings markings?
> 
> Finally, for whom are the rating markings intended?
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Rich
> 
> 
> ps:  My wife's Pfaff sewing machine has two ratings:
> 
>120 V, 50/60 Hz certified by UL and CSA.
>220-240 V, 50/60 Hz certified with CE and others.
> 
> The ratings are distinctly separate, but on the 
> same label.  No switch.  Its quite clear the unit
> operates 120-240 and 50-60.
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
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> 
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> Mike Cantwell 
> 
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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Bill Owsley]

Not the usual consumer... but I recall as a young and curious sort, looking at 
these labels to figure out what they meant.
The curiosity probably meant I'd end up in this line of work.   I had figured 
out that the volts, current, watts, fuse and circuit breakers had a certain 
relationship that had to fit one way... and not the other.  Empirical evidence! 
 Parents and Fire Dept strongly discouraged verification!  Might explain the 
volunteering for the Fire Dept.




 From: Brian Oconnell 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Cc: ri...@ieee.org 
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:32 PM
Subject: RE: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
 
The cord-set rating is determined by the equipment's rating. The cord-set
rating cannot be used to determine power requirements. The plug on the
cord-set will limit the user to a specific range of mains ratings (and is
marked with rating), but is not intended to indicate any specific
performance of the mains-connected equipment.

But your original question is valid - who reads and understands these
labels? Mostly people like you and me? An electrician doing the repair or
install? A fire inspector? But probably not the consumer.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 4:13 PM
To: oconne...@tamuracorp.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

> Basis for rating info on label of consumer product based on regional
> electric code and marking requirement in scoped safety
> standard. Basis for
> rating on a component is to verify comformity. Note the rationale in
> 60950-1: "Equipment shall be provided with a power rating marking, the
> purpose of which is to specify a supply of correct voltage
> and frequency,
> and of adequate current-carrying capacity."

Doesn't answer my questions.

The plug provided with the equipment completely
answers the 60950-1 requirement without any
marking!  The end-user installs the equipment
using the supplied plug, without reference to
the rating markings.


Rich

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Brian Oconnell]

The cord-set rating is determined by the equipment's rating. The cord-set
rating cannot be used to determine power requirements. The plug on the
cord-set will limit the user to a specific range of mains ratings (and is
marked with rating), but is not intended to indicate any specific
performance of the mains-connected equipment.

But your original question is valid - who reads and understands these
labels? Mostly people like you and me? An electrician doing the repair or
install? A fire inspector? But probably not the consumer.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 4:13 PM
To: oconne...@tamuracorp.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

> Basis for rating info on label of consumer product based on regional
> electric code and marking requirement in scoped safety
> standard. Basis for
> rating on a component is to verify comformity. Note the rationale in
> 60950-1: "Equipment shall be provided with a power rating marking, the
> purpose of which is to specify a supply of correct voltage
> and frequency,
> and of adequate current-carrying capacity."

Doesn't answer my questions.

The plug provided with the equipment completely
answers the 60950-1 requirement without any
marking!  The end-user installs the equipment
using the supplied plug, without reference to
the rating markings.


Rich

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Richard Nute]

> Basis for rating info on label of consumer product based on regional
> electric code and marking requirement in scoped safety 
> standard. Basis for
> rating on a component is to verify comformity. Note the rationale in
> 60950-1: "Equipment shall be provided with a power rating marking, the
> purpose of which is to specify a supply of correct voltage 
> and frequency,
> and of adequate current-carrying capacity."

Doesn't answer my questions.

The plug provided with the equipment completely 
answers the 60950-1 requirement without any 
marking!  The end-user installs the equipment 
using the supplied plug, without reference to
the rating markings.


Rich

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[John Woodgate]

In message , dated Fri, 
27 Jan 2012, Richard Nute  writes:



   120 V, 50/60 Hz certified by UL and CSA.
   220-240 V, 50/60 Hz certified with CE and others.

The ratings are distinctly separate, but on the
same label.  No switch.  Its quite clear the unit operates 120-240 and 
50-60.


Yes, well, we got it right in IEC TC84 (now TC100) but TC16 objected to 
us making a standard on their 'patch', took it over and (as I heard the 
story) decided that '50/60 Hz' was right, as there were no supplies of 
intermediate frequency. The illogicality didn't seem to count.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Ralph . McDiarmid]

A very nice example of another use of the 120/240V nameplate marking
___ 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  | 
  Regulatory Compliance Engineering




From:
Don Gies 
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:
01/27/2012 09:24 AM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings



Kevin,
 
Note also that here in the US, in Canada, and other countries with power 
systems similar to that of the United States, nominally 120 V to ground, 
60 Hz, residential single phase, 3-wire power is identified as a "120/240 
V ac, single phase, 3-wire" system.  This consists of the two live 
ungrounded conductors located at the ends of the service transformer 
secondary (i.e., L1 and L2), and the grounded neutral (N), which is the 
center-tap of the transformer.
 
This does not mean that you necessarily use either 120 V or 240 V, but 
often use both in the same appliance.  Examples include electric clothes 
dryers that use 240 V for the heating element and 120 V to spin the 
barrel, and industrial service equipment such as telephone wireless base 
stations that may use 240 V for the main electrical loading, but have a 
120 V convenience receptacle for powering service personnel's tools.
 
Appliances that simultaneously utilize both 240 V ac single-phase loads 
and 120 V ac loads have electrical ratings like "120/240V ac, 3 wire, XX 
A, 60Hz."  For these types of products, it is important to use "3 wire" in 
the electrical rating to distinguish it from a product that uses either 
120 V or 240 V at the same input terminal.
 
Best regards,
 
DON GIES, NCE 
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
BELL LABS - GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA 
don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com
MEMBER, ALCATEL-LUCENT TECHNICAL ACADEMY
 
-Original Message-
From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 11:57 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
 
Thanks everyone for your response.  Everyone who responded to me on the 
forum and privately was correct that 120-240V indicates a range, and the 
product can operate at any voltage over that range.  120/240V indicates 
that the product can only operate at those specific voltages (plus 
tolerances).
 
As for the "general public", I was actually quite surprised.  I asked 
several people that I know, many of whom freely admit they "don't know how 
electricity works".  Every person I asked knew that 120-240 was different 
from 120/240 and they were able to guess a range vs either/or.
 
The "general public" was pretty clear on 120-240V saying they would just 
plug it in and it would work, however they were confused when faced with 
120/240, some said they should look for a voltage selector switch, others 
indicated they would need some sort of adapter, and a few people said just 
plug it in and it will work.
 
 
Thanks again for your responses,
 
Kevin
 
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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Brian Oconnell]

Regarding the sewing machine with two distinct ratings - this is somewhat
common, and I have done it for some of my employer's products. The label
should clearly indicate the regional basis of the ratings. That is, there
should be an agency's NRTL/SCC logo associated with the 120V, and a CE or
other international mark with the 240V rating. Done due to country-specific
cord set shipped with unit and ratings of certain components due to national
differences.

Basis for rating info on label of consumer product based on regional
electric code and marking requirement in scoped safety standard. Basis for
rating on a component is to verify comformity. Note the rationale in
60950-1: "Equipment shall be provided with a power rating marking, the
purpose of which is to specify a supply of correct voltage and frequency,
and of adequate current-carrying capacity."

Agree that markings are not always clear to the consumer, perhaps not
intended for the customer - "Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for
thee." [poor metaphor]

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Richard
Nute
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:46 PM
To: 'McInturff, Gary'; don_borow...@selinc.com;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

My nifty Samsung TV is rated 100-240, 50/60 Hz.

Per the discussion here:

100-240 indicates a continuous range;
50/60 Hz implies two discrete switchable ranges.

As mentioned in this discussion, 50/60 implies a
range of frequencies between 50 and 60 where the
TV would not operate.  Of course, as everyone
recognizes, there is no switch for frequency.  And,
the TV would operate at any frequency between 50
and 60.

Even among ourselves (product safety professionals),
we do not apply the rating markings consistently.

There is no justification for expecting the user
to distinguish between a - and a /.  The user buys
an appliance locally, and it comes with a cord an
plug for local use.  The markings are not read
prior to installation.  Neither do the installation
instructions instruct the user to check the ratings
before installation.  The manufacturer does this
for the user by shipping a fully configured product
to the retailer.

Table lamps don't have rating markings.

What, then, is the value of the ratings markings?

For that matter, what is the safety function of the
ratings markings?

Finally, for whom are the rating markings intended?


Best regards,
Rich


ps:  My wife's Pfaff sewing machine has two ratings:

120 V, 50/60 Hz certified by UL and CSA.
220-240 V, 50/60 Hz certified with CE and others.

The ratings are distinctly separate, but on the
same label.  No switch.  Its quite clear the unit
operates 120-240 and 50-60.

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Richard Nute]

My nifty Samsung TV is rated 100-240, 50/60 Hz.  

Per the discussion here:

100-240 indicates a continuous range;
50/60 Hz implies two discrete switchable ranges.

As mentioned in this discussion, 50/60 implies a
range of frequencies between 50 and 60 where the
TV would not operate.  Of course, as everyone 
recognizes, there is no switch for frequency.  And,
the TV would operate at any frequency between 50
and 60.

Even among ourselves (product safety professionals), 
we do not apply the rating markings consistently.  

There is no justification for expecting the user
to distinguish between a - and a /.  The user buys
an appliance locally, and it comes with a cord an
plug for local use.  The markings are not read 
prior to installation.  Neither do the installation
instructions instruct the user to check the ratings
before installation.  The manufacturer does this 
for the user by shipping a fully configured product 
to the retailer.

Table lamps don't have rating markings.

What, then, is the value of the ratings markings?

For that matter, what is the safety function of the
ratings markings?

Finally, for whom are the rating markings intended?


Best regards,
Rich
  

ps:  My wife's Pfaff sewing machine has two ratings:

120 V, 50/60 Hz certified by UL and CSA.
220-240 V, 50/60 Hz certified with CE and others.

The ratings are distinctly separate, but on the 
same label.  No switch.  Its quite clear the unit
operates 120-240 and 50-60.

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[John Woodgate]

In message 
, 
dated Fri, 27 Jan 2012, don_borow...@selinc.com writes:


In the mid-1930 in the USA, there were some radios designed with 3-wire 
power cords -- two copper conductors and a third resistive conductor. 
This was because the heater string voltage added up to 69 volts (at 300 
mA) for a typical 5-tube radio. These cords soon acquired the nickname 
'curtain burners'.


This is a bit OT, but that sort of radio was exported from US to Britain 
right up to the mid 1950s. There were also a few European ones with 0.2 
A and 0.15 A heaters.


Other radios had a "ballast tube" (a glorified light bulb) to drop the 
excess voltage (and add more heat inside the radio).


Well, that's a bit harsh; they (called 'barreters' in Britain) had an 
iron filament in a hydrogen atmosphere and were quite good 
constant-current devices.


Eventually UL forced the situation, and the tube line-up was redesigned 
so that the heater voltages added up to 120 V (at 150 mA).


There were even tubes with 117 V heaters - rectifiers and power 
pentodes. No 220 V or 230 V types, though.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Don_Borowski]

In the mid-1930 in the USA, there were some radios designed with 3-wire 
power cords -- two copper conductors and a third resistive conductor. This 
was because the heater string voltage added up to 69 volts (at 300 mA) for 
a typical 5-tube radio. These cords soon acquired the nickname 'curtain 
burners'. Other radios had a "ballast tube" (a glorified light bulb) to 
drop the excess voltage (and add more heat inside the radio). Eventually 
UL forced the situation, and the tube line-up was redesigned so that the 
heater voltages added up to 120 V (at 150 mA).

If any of those power cords survive, the insulation is brittle by now, and 
so a standard power cord is fitted and a modification done to the radio. 
The simple modification to the radio is to add a diode in the heater 
string. I have pointed out to these hobbyists (I collect old radios as 
well) that this yields 85 Vrms for the heater string, not 69 Vrms, and so 
the tubes are being overstressed. I then gave ways to fix the problem 
(also add a resistor, or use a properly sized capacitor to reduce 
voltage).

Donald Borowski
EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA



From:   John Woodgate 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:   01/27/2012 10:45 AM
Subject:    Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



In message <4f22e536.60...@ieee.org>, dated Fri, 27 Jan 2012, Mick 
Maytum  writes:

>Dans experience reminded me of a guy who bought a 120 V coffee maker as 
>a present for someone in (old) England. Having some knowledge of AC 
>supplies he bought a 240 V to 120 V travel adaptor so the coffee maker 
>could operate on UK 240 V mains.

In my youth (in Britain) I used to hang around the local radio dealer. 
People of my age will know what a 'line cord' is - a resistive mains 
lead used to drop the heater voltage for AC/DC radios, having a series 
string of 0.2 A or 0.3 A heaters.

A guy arrived one day asking for a line cord for a 120 V 2 kW heater. He 
had even worked out the required resistance correctly with Ohm's Law.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking 
of
biting a rook.

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[John Woodgate]

In message <4f22e536.60...@ieee.org>, dated Fri, 27 Jan 2012, Mick 
Maytum  writes:


Dans experience reminded me of a guy who bought a 120 V coffee maker as 
a present for someone in (old) England. Having some knowledge of AC 
supplies he bought a 240 V to 120 V travel adaptor so the coffee maker 
could operate on UK 240 V mains.


In my youth (in Britain) I used to hang around the local radio dealer. 
People of my age will know what a 'line cord' is - a resistive mains 
lead used to drop the heater voltage for AC/DC radios, having a series 
string of 0.2 A or 0.3 A heaters.


A guy arrived one day asking for a line cord for a 120 V 2 kW heater. He 
had even worked out the required resistance correctly with Ohm's Law.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

-

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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Bob Richards]

Correct.
 
Surprisingly, we had a client attempt to do that on a product so that it would 
operate on either 120 U.S. or 230 EU. The heater did work without a problem, 
but it failed the required power harmonics test miserably. There is 
also wording in EN61000-3-2 stating that half-wave rectification is NOT allowed 
except for specific circumstances, none of which applied to his product.
 
Bob R.


--- On Fri, 1/27/12, don_borow...@selinc.com  wrote:


From: don_borow...@selinc.com 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
To: mjmay...@gmail.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 1:16 PM


I have seen people make this mistake a number of times. A diode does NOT 
reduce the RMS voltage by a factor of 2. It reduces the POWER by a factor 
of 2 (full power half of the time). Reducing the RMS voltage by a factor 
of 2 will reduce the power dissipation in a resistor (i.e., electric 
heater in a coffee maker) by factor of 4. For a 'dumb' resistive heater, a 
diode will reduce 240 Vrms to 170 Vrms.

Donald Borowski
EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA



From:   Mick Maytum 
To:     EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Cc:     Dan Roman 
Date:   01/27/2012 09:58 AM
Subject:        Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
Sent by:        emc-p...@ieee.org



Dans experience reminded me of a guy who bought a 120 V 
coffee maker as a present for someone in (old) England. 
Having some knowledge of AC supplies he bought a 240 V to 
120 V travel adaptor so the coffee maker could operate on UK 
240 V mains. Unfortunately the adaptor consisted of a series 
rectifier diode to apply half cycles of the AC. Had the 
coffee maker been electro-mechanical he might have got away 
with it. But the maker had sophisticated electronic 
controls. When powered up for the first and only time the 
result was spectacular.

Mick
On 27/01/2012 16:26, Dan Roman wrote:
> Marked 120/240V would not necessarily mean a switch needs to be flipped 
or a selector moved, it could still be auto-ranging.  But something marked 
120/240V would not be expected to operate at say 150V but something rated 
120-240V should.
>
> I would expect something marked 120/240V to operate in two ranges, at 
least 108-127 and 216-254 but not necessarily in-between.
>
> I think most consumers that purchased something locally expect to be 
able to plug in a device without fiddling with a switch or selector. 
Probably the most common appliance that has a voltage selector switch paid 
attention to is a hair dryer during international travel after blowing up 
the first one!
>
> Dan
>
> -Original Message-
> From: John Cotman [mailto:john.cot...@conformance.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
>
> Presumably:
>
> Something marked 120-240V should run at any voltage in that range, and 
you'd
> just need to plug it into a suitable supply (one would hope that it is 
also
> rated to cover both 50Hz and 60Hz supplies).
>
> A 120/240V making is an either one or the other indication, so there 
might
> well be a selector switch.  If there is, the manufacturer would be well
> advised not to be cryptic unless he likes product returns.
>
> John C.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 January 2012 15:20
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
>
> Happy Friday everyone
>
> I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
> trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
> that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.
>
> If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
> 120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
> would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
> operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
> products to use it at 120V or 240V?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin Robinson
> OSHA

-

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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.o

Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Don_Borowski]

I have seen people make this mistake a number of times. A diode does NOT 
reduce the RMS voltage by a factor of 2. It reduces the POWER by a factor 
of 2 (full power half of the time). Reducing the RMS voltage by a factor 
of 2 will reduce the power dissipation in a resistor (i.e., electric 
heater in a coffee maker) by factor of 4. For a 'dumb' resistive heater, a 
diode will reduce 240 Vrms to 170 Vrms.

Donald Borowski
EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA



From:   Mick Maytum 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Cc: Dan Roman 
Date:   01/27/2012 09:58 AM
Subject:    Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



Dans experience reminded me of a guy who bought a 120 V 
coffee maker as a present for someone in (old) England. 
Having some knowledge of AC supplies he bought a 240 V to 
120 V travel adaptor so the coffee maker could operate on UK 
240 V mains. Unfortunately the adaptor consisted of a series 
rectifier diode to apply half cycles of the AC. Had the 
coffee maker been electro-mechanical he might have got away 
with it. But the maker had sophisticated electronic 
controls. When powered up for the first and only time the 
result was spectacular.

Mick
On 27/01/2012 16:26, Dan Roman wrote:
> Marked 120/240V would not necessarily mean a switch needs to be flipped 
or a selector moved, it could still be auto-ranging.  But something marked 
120/240V would not be expected to operate at say 150V but something rated 
120-240V should.
>
> I would expect something marked 120/240V to operate in two ranges, at 
least 108-127 and 216-254 but not necessarily in-between.
>
> I think most consumers that purchased something locally expect to be 
able to plug in a device without fiddling with a switch or selector. 
Probably the most common appliance that has a voltage selector switch paid 
attention to is a hair dryer during international travel after blowing up 
the first one!
>
> Dan
>
> -Original Message-
> From: John Cotman [mailto:john.cot...@conformance.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
>
> Presumably:
>
> Something marked 120-240V should run at any voltage in that range, and 
you'd
> just need to plug it into a suitable supply (one would hope that it is 
also
> rated to cover both 50Hz and 60Hz supplies).
>
> A 120/240V making is an either one or the other indication, so there 
might
> well be a selector switch.  If there is, the manufacturer would be well
> advised not to be cryptic unless he likes product returns.
>
> John C.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 January 2012 15:20
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
>
> Happy Friday everyone
>
> I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
> trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
> that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.
>
> If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
> 120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
> would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
> operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
> products to use it at 120V or 240V?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin Robinson
> OSHA

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Mick Maytum]

Dans experience reminded me of a guy who bought a 120 V 
coffee maker as a present for someone in (old) England. 
Having some knowledge of AC supplies he bought a 240 V to 
120 V travel adaptor so the coffee maker could operate on UK 
240 V mains. Unfortunately the adaptor consisted of a series 
rectifier diode to apply half cycles of the AC. Had the 
coffee maker been electro-mechanical he might have got away 
with it. But the maker had sophisticated electronic 
controls. When powered up for the first and only time the 
result was spectacular.


Mick
On 27/01/2012 16:26, Dan Roman wrote:

Marked 120/240V would not necessarily mean a switch needs to be flipped or a 
selector moved, it could still be auto-ranging.  But something marked 120/240V 
would not be expected to operate at say 150V but something rated 120-240V 
should.

I would expect something marked 120/240V to operate in two ranges, at least 
108-127 and 216-254 but not necessarily in-between.

I think most consumers that purchased something locally expect to be able to 
plug in a device without fiddling with a switch or selector.  Probably the most 
common appliance that has a voltage selector switch paid attention to is a hair 
dryer during international travel after blowing up the first one!

Dan

-Original Message-
From: John Cotman [mailto:john.cot...@conformance.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Presumably:

Something marked 120-240V should run at any voltage in that range, and you'd
just need to plug it into a suitable supply (one would hope that it is also
rated to cover both 50Hz and 60Hz supplies).

A 120/240V making is an either one or the other indication, so there might
well be a selector switch.  If there is, the manufacturer would be well
advised not to be cryptic unless he likes product returns.

John C.

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com]
Sent: 27 January 2012 15:20
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Don Gies]

Kevin,

 

Note also that here in the US, in Canada, and other countries with power
systems similar to that of the United States, nominally 120 V to ground, 60
Hz, residential single phase, 3-wire power is identified as a "120/240 V ac,
single phase, 3-wire" system.  This consists of the two live ungrounded
conductors located at the ends of the service transformer secondary (i.e.,
L1 and L2), and the grounded neutral (N), which is the center-tap of the
transformer.

 

This does not mean that you necessarily use either 120 V or 240 V, but often
use both in the same appliance.  Examples include electric clothes dryers
that use 240 V for the heating element and 120 V to spin the barrel, and
industrial service equipment such as telephone wireless base stations that
may use 240 V for the main electrical loading, but have a 120 V convenience
receptacle for powering service personnel's tools.

 

Appliances that simultaneously utilize both 240 V ac single-phase loads and
120 V ac loads have electrical ratings like "120/240V ac, 3 wire, XX A,
60Hz."  For these types of products, it is important to use "3 wire" in the
electrical rating to distinguish it from a product that uses either 120 V or
240 V at the same input terminal.

 

Best regards,

 

DON GIES, NCE 

ALCATEL-LUCENT

SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER

BELL LABS - GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY

Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA   

don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com

MEMBER, ALCATEL-LUCENT TECHNICAL ACADEMY

 

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 11:57 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

 

Thanks everyone for your response.  Everyone who responded to me on the
forum and privately was correct that 120-240V indicates a range, and the
product can operate at any voltage over that range.  120/240V indicates that
the product can only operate at those specific voltages (plus tolerances).

 

As for the "general public", I was actually quite surprised.  I asked
several people that I know, many of whom freely admit they "don't know how
electricity works".  Every person I asked knew that 120-240 was different
from 120/240 and they were able to guess a range vs either/or.

 

The "general public" was pretty clear on 120-240V saying they would just
plug it in and it would work, however they were confused when faced with
120/240, some said they should look for a voltage selector switch, others
indicated they would need some sort of adapter, and a few people said just
plug it in and it will work.

 

 

Thanks again for your responses,

 

Kevin

 

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Brian Oconnell]

Cannot believe that fellow power suppliers did not jump on this.

My employer has a active and popular model series of component power
supplies rated 120/240V. Only time that we dived into the lower-end market.
Very simple and reliable thyristor-controlled auto-switch, with very small
dead-zone. This type of design is found in lo-end 'passive' PFC stuff.
Several competitors has similar offerings, and there is a China company that
has directly copied my employer's design. So this auto-switch stuff is still
common.

from 60950-1
"Equipment shall be designed to be safe at any supply voltage to which it is
intended to be connected." -> Does not say it has to work, just not make a
mess.

Furthermore, 60950-1 also says
"- Multiple RATED VOLTAGE: 120/230/240 V. This means that the equipment is
designed to be connected to an AC MAINS SUPPLY having a voltage of 120 V or
230 V or 240 V, usually after internal adjustment."

And clause 1.4.5 indicates that an input rating of x/y can be used to infer
the dead zone.

Note to government technical employees - there is no such thing as "common
knowledge". 'Common' knowledge is the realm of generalizations and
bureaucracy. 'Common' knowledge is ill-suited for use by engineers where
standards and empirical data should drive the discipline.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of
don_borow...@selinc.com
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:13 AM
To: Kevin Robinson
Cc: emc-pstc
Subject: Re: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Perhaps these days are long past, but there was a time when some switching
power supplies were designed as 120/240 supplies without a mechanical
switch. They used two energy-storage capacitors in series. At low line
voltage, the input rectifier diodes were configured (electronically) as
full-wave voltage doubler, charging the two-capacitor combination to the
peak-to-peak line voltage. At the high line voltage, the diodes were
configured as a bridge to charge the series combination of capacitors to
the 0-peak line voltage.

Note that although these supplies would operate from nominal 120 VAC or
nominal 240 VAC, there was a range of voltages in between where they would
NOT operate!

Donald Borowski
EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA


From:   Kevin Robinson 
To: emc-pstc 
Date:   01/27/2012 07:23 AM
Subject:Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Kevin Robinson]

Thanks everyone for your response.  Everyone who responded to me on
the forum and privately was correct that 120-240V indicates a range,
and the product can operate at any voltage over that range.  120/240V
indicates that the product can only operate at those specific voltages
(plus tolerances).

As for the "general public", I was actually quite surprised.  I asked
several people that I know, many of whom freely admit they "don't know
how electricity works".  Every person I asked knew that 120-240 was
different from 120/240 and they were able to guess a range vs
either/or.

The "general public" was pretty clear on 120-240V saying they would
just plug it in and it would work, however they were confused when
faced with 120/240, some said they should look for a voltage selector
switch, others indicated they would need some sort of adapter, and a
few people said just plug it in and it will work.


Thanks again for your responses,

Kevin

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Dan Roman]

Marked 120/240V would not necessarily mean a switch needs to be flipped or a 
selector moved, it could still be auto-ranging.  But something marked 120/240V 
would not be expected to operate at say 150V but something rated 120-240V 
should.

I would expect something marked 120/240V to operate in two ranges, at least 
108-127 and 216-254 but not necessarily in-between.

I think most consumers that purchased something locally expect to be able to 
plug in a device without fiddling with a switch or selector.  Probably the most 
common appliance that has a voltage selector switch paid attention to is a hair 
dryer during international travel after blowing up the first one!

Dan

-Original Message-
From: John Cotman [mailto:john.cot...@conformance.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Presumably:

Something marked 120-240V should run at any voltage in that range, and you'd
just need to plug it into a suitable supply (one would hope that it is also
rated to cover both 50Hz and 60Hz supplies).

A 120/240V making is an either one or the other indication, so there might
well be a selector switch.  If there is, the manufacturer would be well
advised not to be cryptic unless he likes product returns.

John C.

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 27 January 2012 15:20
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Ron Pickard]

Kevin et al,
In my experience over the years, 120-240V indicates a universal input whereby 
the power supply is intended to operate at any voltage within that boundary 
(with tolerancing of course). And, 120/240V indicates that a power supply is 
intended to operate at only those 2 voltages(again with tolerancing), whereby 
voltage selection is either automatic via built-in auto-ranging circuitry or 
manually via a selector switch. If selection is by selector switch, the user 
must be cautioned/informed of the use of the switch for the safe operation of 
the device.

And I totally agree that the average consumer has no idea about such things, 
hence the need for the seemingly ubiquitous universal input nowadays and 
especially for consumer products (my opinion).

IHTH.

Best regards,

Ron

-Original Message-
From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

It's probably common knowledge on THIS forum that 120-240V indicates an 
autoranging power supply and 120/240V indicates there is a switch setting for 
one or the other.  I'll bet the average consumer has no idea, though.

Jim Hulbert

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Robinson
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:20 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am trying to 
determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something that I picked up 
along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what would be 
the difference between these two products?  Would a user or operator need to do 
anything special with one or both of these products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[McInturff, Gary]

I'm probably just restating Donald's note below but / means that it has two 
distinct inputs 120 or 240. The hyphen indicates a continuous range of 
operation from 120 through 240. The definition is buried in EN60950 somewhere 
but I forget exactly where. That of course doesn't mean that it matches NEC 
necessarily. Added note to Don's last paragraph, in the case Don speaks about 
generally one has to worry about brown out conditions which are below the input 
tolerance. South America I believe still has many instances of brownout 
conditions as their capacity doesn't match the demand on lots of days.
Don likely has a much better handle on where, when and how brownout conditions 
occur. My designs of old, essentially monitored the voltage a force a graceful 
shut down before damage could occur to the equipment. 

Gary

-Original Message-
From: don_borow...@selinc.com [mailto:don_borow...@selinc.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:13 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Perhaps these days are long past, but there was a time when some switching 
power supplies were designed as 120/240 supplies without a mechanical 
switch. They used two energy-storage capacitors in series. At low line 
voltage, the input rectifier diodes were configured (electronically) as 
full-wave voltage doubler, charging the two-capacitor combination to the 
peak-to-peak line voltage. At the high line voltage, the diodes were 
configured as a bridge to charge the series combination of capacitors to 
the 0-peak line voltage.

Note that although these supplies would operate from nominal 120 VAC or 
nominal 240 VAC, there was a range of voltages in between where they would 
NOT operate!

Donald Borowski
EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA



From:   Kevin Robinson 
To: emc-pstc 
Date:   01/27/2012 07:23 AM
Subject:Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Don_Borowski]

Perhaps these days are long past, but there was a time when some switching 
power supplies were designed as 120/240 supplies without a mechanical 
switch. They used two energy-storage capacitors in series. At low line 
voltage, the input rectifier diodes were configured (electronically) as 
full-wave voltage doubler, charging the two-capacitor combination to the 
peak-to-peak line voltage. At the high line voltage, the diodes were 
configured as a bridge to charge the series combination of capacitors to 
the 0-peak line voltage.

Note that although these supplies would operate from nominal 120 VAC or 
nominal 240 VAC, there was a range of voltages in between where they would 
NOT operate!

Donald Borowski
EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA



From:   Kevin Robinson 
To: emc-pstc 
Date:   01/27/2012 07:23 AM
Subject:Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Pettit, Ghery]

I'll go farther and suggest that the average consumer doesn't even know the 
label is there.

Ghery S. Pettit

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of 
kazimier_gawrzy...@dell.com
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:57 AM
To: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk; jim.hulb...@pb.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Is it likely that the average consumer even reads the reg. label for ratings?

Kaz Gawrzyjal

From: emc-p...@ieee.org 
[mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of 
allen john
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:56 AM
To: Jim Hulbert
Cc: emc-pstc
Subject: Re: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Fully agree with Jim!

John Allen
London, UK
On 27 January 2012 15:39, Jim Hulbert 
mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com>> wrote:
It's probably common knowledge on THIS forum that 120-240V indicates an 
autoranging power supply and 120/240V indicates there is a switch setting for 
one or the other.  I'll bet the average consumer has no idea, though.

Jim Hulbert

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org 
[mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Robinson
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:20 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Is it likely that the average consumer even reads the reg. label for ratings?

Kaz Gawrzyjal

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of allen john
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:56 AM
To: Jim Hulbert
Cc: emc-pstc
Subject: Re: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Fully agree with Jim!

John Allen
London, UK
On 27 January 2012 15:39, Jim Hulbert 
mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com>> wrote:
It's probably common knowledge on THIS forum that 120-240V indicates an 
autoranging power supply and 120/240V indicates there is a switch setting for 
one or the other.  I'll bet the average consumer has no idea, though.

Jim Hulbert

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org 
[mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Robinson
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:20 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[allen john]

Fully agree with Jim!

John Allen
London, UK

On 27 January 2012 15:39, Jim Hulbert  wrote:

> It's probably common knowledge on THIS forum that 120-240V indicates an
> autoranging power supply and 120/240V indicates there is a switch setting
> for one or the other.  I'll bet the average consumer has no idea, though.
>
> Jim Hulbert
>
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
> Robinson
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:20 AM
> To: emc-pstc
> Subject: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
>
> Happy Friday everyone
>
> I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
> trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
> that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.
>
> If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
> 120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
> would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
> operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
> products to use it at 120V or 240V?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin Robinson
> OSHA
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
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> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
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> Mike Cantwell 
>
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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Jim Hulbert]

It's probably common knowledge on THIS forum that 120-240V indicates an 
autoranging power supply and 120/240V indicates there is a switch setting for 
one or the other.  I'll bet the average consumer has no idea, though.

Jim Hulbert

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Robinson
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:20 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[John Cotman]

Presumably:

Something marked 120-240V should run at any voltage in that range, and you'd
just need to plug it into a suitable supply (one would hope that it is also
rated to cover both 50Hz and 60Hz supplies).

A 120/240V making is an either one or the other indication, so there might
well be a selector switch.  If there is, the manufacturer would be well
advised not to be cryptic unless he likes product returns.

John C.

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 27 January 2012 15:20
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Kevin,

The 120-240V product is auto-ranging and can use either voltage with no special 
action required. The 120/240V product will have a voltage selector switch. I do 
believe this is common knowledge, at least among product safety engineers. ;)

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Robinson
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:20 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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[PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Kevin Robinson]

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

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