Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Pete Perkins]

Cortland, Thanx for sharing your story.  All of us have had similar 
experiences, passing it on is the fun part when folks are willing to learn.  
Passing it on is frustrating when folks don’t want to learn, only to argue.  

   On the product safety side I learned early on to not argue but 
invoke a simple test and watch the designer’s eyes be opened in amazement when 
his superior design wouldn’t pass a test that he had already agreed seemed 
reasonable.  (How to make friends and influence people.)  

Of course, product safety seemed better organized and reasonable :>) . 

EMC stuff was always bat’s wings and dragon’s teeth implemented with baling 
wire and conductive tape over al foil (and the ever present box of assorted 
filters).   

 

The technology has come a long way; fortunately, not all of the engineers have 
so there exists room for experience to handhold and lead the uninitiated along 
the path of learning.  As PT Barnum claimed: A fool is born every minute; what 
a great opportunity exists.  

 

It’s been a great ride.  I still encourage young folks to find what they really 
like to do and then find someone dumb enough to pay them to do it.  I have 
enjoyed my more than 60 yr professional engineering career that way. 

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: Cortland Richmond  
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 10:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

I started in EMC on retiring from the Army in 1983, at Wang Labs, where my 15 
years in avionics maintenance and repair, a few teaching at its school  in 
Georgia,  plus a Secret clearance to do TEMPEST testing, meant  all I needed 
was a three-letter course given by three-letter instructors.

EMC compliance and vulnerability is very basic, and yet, many of the degreed 
engineers I worked with sometimes had me teaching EMC "lunch and learns", or 
arguing for fixes from shield terminations to chassis contact points to avoid 
just as expensive (and less reliable) slip-on copper fingers.  GE Aviation 
recruited me ("Smith Aerospace" in Michigan just then) and it was often the 
basics that designers adn engineers often misunderstood or forgot. "Put the 
electrons back before they scream for their mothers!"

And every employer had files my first manager at Smiths/GE called "files 
written down."  High School physics, or so I thought.

I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be working 
again at 77 -- but it was FUN.

Ad astra per Asperger -- discovered at 67.

Cortland

 

-Original Message- 
From: Jim Hulbert 
Sent: May 26, 2021 7:58 AM 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>  
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time? 




I first started in the EMC, Product Safety, and standards compliance aspect of 
engineering about 35 years ago.  At that time they were saying all the same 
things we are saying today:  Must be considered up front in designs.  Must be 
included in engineering education at the college/university level.  Management 
needs to commit to compliance.  I would also add that EMC was “black magic” (do 
people still say that?).   Apparently we still have a long way to go.  I wonder 
if they will still be saying these things 35 years from now.

 

Jim Hulbert

 

From: John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 5:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

Like a “lot” of people here, I never had any formal education in either safety 
or EMC compliance – I just had to learn “on the job” about “what worked and 
what didn’t”, and often in very challenging situations. 

(OTOH, I was never the “sharpest tool in the toolbox” in engineering  parlance 
– which was a “problem”  when engaging with local management which, frankly, 
mainly “didn’t to know” ☹, ) 

 

Therefore safety, standards compliance and EMC standards compliance REALLY MUST 
be an integral component of engineering education – and ALSO for company 
management - forward from where we are “now”.

 

John E Allen

W. London, UK.

 

 

From: Dennis Ward <0dbeaa892a40-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:0dbeaa892a40-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > 
Sent: 25 May 2021 21:09
To: E

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Pete Perkins]

Yes, John,There were things that we did at 20 or 40 or even 60 
that, if we can do them, take longer now.  

 

   Some of this was things that we did when we were young and 
foolish; we’re not so young anymore.  

 

   Here in the US we’re familiar with the folk song: ‘The old Gray 
Mare ain’t what she used to be’.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk  
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 1:31 PM
To: 'Pete Perkins' 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Not bragging - given that I have quite a few “physical problems” ( arthritic 
knee, displace L3 vertibra)  that have since all but prevented me from actually 
doing most of what I previously hoped that I could be doing now ☹

 

From: Pete Perkins mailto:peperkin...@cs.com> > 
Sent: 04 June 2021 20:58
To: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk> ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: RE: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Ok, Quit bragging, I’ve got you both beat.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > 
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 12:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Correct, but I made mine about 5 ½ yrs after the end of my last contract – so 
many other “things” I wanted to do that I’d not had time for over the previous 
many years.

 

From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> > 
Sent: 04 June 2021 20:42
To: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk> ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Everyone has a choice. 

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque

On 2021-06-04 20:40, john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk 
<mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk>  wrote:

No way will I be “going back to contracting”  - 6 yrs away from all that hassle 
has convinced me that it wouldn’t be worth all the hassle & stress (had quite 
enough of that whilst I was working - contract or not!), especially now that 
the UK tax regs on contract work have become more complex & difficult to 
“navigate”. ☹

 

OTOH, I thought I’d deleted my LinkedIn a/c but I still get a few “job 
opportunities” flagged up by various agencies which got my contact details from 
that site – seems that deleting those a/c’s is considerably more “difficult” 
than it should be ☹.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate  <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>  
Sent: 04 June 2021 19:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Don't assume. I've just been hired at 83.5 years old. Not a long-term hire, nor 
well paid, but every little helps.

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque

On 2021-06-04 18:54, Cortland Richmond wrote:

I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be working 
again at 77 -- but it was FUN.

 


 
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 

Virus-free.  
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 www.avg.com 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Enginee

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[John E Allen]

Not bragging - given that I have quite a few “physical problems” ( arthritic 
knee, displace L3 vertibra)  that have since all but prevented me from actually 
doing most of what I previously hoped that I could be doing now ☹

 

From: Pete Perkins  
Sent: 04 June 2021 20:58
To: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Ok, Quit bragging, I’ve got you both beat.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > 
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 12:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Correct, but I made mine about 5 ½ yrs after the end of my last contract – so 
many other “things” I wanted to do that I’d not had time for over the previous 
many years.

 

From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> > 
Sent: 04 June 2021 20:42
To: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk> ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Everyone has a choice. 

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque

On 2021-06-04 20:40, john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk 
<mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk>  wrote:

No way will I be “going back to contracting”  - 6 yrs away from all that hassle 
has convinced me that it wouldn’t be worth all the hassle & stress (had quite 
enough of that whilst I was working - contract or not!), especially now that 
the UK tax regs on contract work have become more complex & difficult to 
“navigate”. ☹

 

OTOH, I thought I’d deleted my LinkedIn a/c but I still get a few “job 
opportunities” flagged up by various agencies which got my contact details from 
that site – seems that deleting those a/c’s is considerably more “difficult” 
than it should be ☹.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate  <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>  
Sent: 04 June 2021 19:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Don't assume. I've just been hired at 83.5 years old. Not a long-term hire, nor 
well paid, but every little helps.

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque



On 2021-06-04 18:54, Cortland Richmond wrote:

I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be working 
again at 77 -- but it was FUN.

 


 
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 

Virus-free.  
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 www.avg.com 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-m

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Pete Perkins]

Ok, Quit bragging, I’ve got you both beat.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 12:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Correct, but I made mine about 5 ½ yrs after the end of my last contract – so 
many other “things” I wanted to do that I’d not had time for over the previous 
many years.

 

From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> > 
Sent: 04 June 2021 20:42
To: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk> ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Everyone has a choice. 

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque



On 2021-06-04 20:40, john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk 
<mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk>  wrote:

No way will I be “going back to contracting”  - 6 yrs away from all that hassle 
has convinced me that it wouldn’t be worth all the hassle & stress (had quite 
enough of that whilst I was working - contract or not!), especially now that 
the UK tax regs on contract work have become more complex & difficult to 
“navigate”. ☹

 

OTOH, I thought I’d deleted my LinkedIn a/c but I still get a few “job 
opportunities” flagged up by various agencies which got my contact details from 
that site – seems that deleting those a/c’s is considerably more “difficult” 
than it should be ☹.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate  <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>  
Sent: 04 June 2021 19:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Don't assume. I've just been hired at 83.5 years old. Not a long-term hire, nor 
well paid, but every little helps.

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque




On 2021-06-04 18:54, Cortland Richmond wrote:

I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be working 
again at 77 -- but it was FUN.

 


 
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 

Virus-free.  
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 www.avg.com 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listr

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[John E Allen]

Correct, but I made mine about 5 ½ yrs after the end of my last contract – so 
many other “things” I wanted to do that I’d not had time for over the previous 
many years.

 

From: John Woodgate  
Sent: 04 June 2021 20:42
To: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Everyone has a choice. 

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque




On 2021-06-04 20:40, john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk 
<mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk>  wrote:

No way will I be “going back to contracting”  - 6 yrs away from all that hassle 
has convinced me that it wouldn’t be worth all the hassle & stress (had quite 
enough of that whilst I was working - contract or not!), especially now that 
the UK tax regs on contract work have become more complex & difficult to 
“navigate”. ☹

 

OTOH, I thought I’d deleted my LinkedIn a/c but I still get a few “job 
opportunities” flagged up by various agencies which got my contact details from 
that site – seems that deleting those a/c’s is considerably more “difficult” 
than it should be ☹.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate  <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>  
Sent: 04 June 2021 19:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Don't assume. I've just been hired at 83.5 years old. Not a long-term hire, nor 
well paid, but every little helps.

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque





On 2021-06-04 18:54, Cortland Richmond wrote:

I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be working 
again at 77 -- but it was FUN.

 


 
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 

Virus-free.  
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 www.avg.com 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[John Woodgate]

Everyone has a choice.

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque



On 2021-06-04 20:40, john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:


No way will I be “going back to contracting”  - 6 yrs away from all 
that hassle has convinced me that it wouldn’t be worth all the hassle 
& stress (had quite enough of that whilst I was working - contract or 
not!), especially now that the UK tax regs on contract work have 
become more complex & difficult to “navigate”. ☹


OTOH, I thought I’d deleted my LinkedIn a/c but I still get a few “job 
opportunities” flagged up by various agencies which got my contact 
details from that site – seems that deleting those a/c’s is 
considerably more “difficult” than it should be ☹.


John E Allen

W.London, UK

*From:*John Woodgate 
*Sent:* 04 June 2021 19:56
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of 
products pass first time?


Don't assume. I've just been hired at 83.5 years old. Not a long-term 
hire, nor well paid, but every little helps.


==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque


On 2021-06-04 18:54, Cortland Richmond wrote:

I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be
working again at 77 -- but it was FUN.

Image removed by sender. 
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>




Virus-free. www.avg.com 
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>


Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in 
well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/>
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html>


For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>




--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[John E Allen]

No way will I be “going back to contracting”  - 6 yrs away from all that hassle 
has convinced me that it wouldn’t be worth all the hassle & stress (had quite 
enough of that whilst I was working - contract or not!), especially now that 
the UK tax regs on contract work have become more complex & difficult to 
“navigate”. ☹

 

OTOH, I thought I’d deleted my LinkedIn a/c but I still get a few “job 
opportunities” flagged up by various agencies which got my contact details from 
that site – seems that deleting those a/c’s is considerably more “difficult” 
than it should be ☹.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate  
Sent: 04 June 2021 19:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass 
first time?

 

Don't assume. I've just been hired at 83.5 years old. Not a long-term hire, nor 
well paid, but every little helps.

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque




On 2021-06-04 18:54, Cortland Richmond wrote:

I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be working 
again at 77 -- but it was FUN.

 


 
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 

Virus-free.  
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
 www.avg.com 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[John Woodgate]

Don't assume. I've just been hired at 83.5 years old. Not a long-term 
hire, nor well paid, but every little helps.


==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque



On 2021-06-04 18:54, Cortland Richmond wrote:
I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be 
working again at 77 -- but it was FUN.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Cortland Richmond]

I started in EMC on retiring from the Army in 1983, at Wang Labs,
  where my 15 years in avionics maintenance and repair, a few
  teaching at its school  in Georgia,  plus a Secret clearance to do
  TEMPEST testing, meant  all I needed was a three-letter course
  given by three-letter instructors.
  
  EMC compliance and vulnerability is very basic, and yet, many of
  the degreed engineers I worked with sometimes had me teaching EMC
  "lunch and learns", or arguing for fixes from shield terminations
  to chassis contact points to avoid just as expensive (and less
  reliable) slip-on copper fingers.  GE Aviation recruited me
  ("Smith Aerospace" in Michigan just then) and it was often the
  basics that designers adn engineers often misunderstood or forgot.
  "Put the electrons back before they scream for their mothers!"
  
  And every employer had files my first manager at Smiths/GE called
  "files written down."  High School physics, or so I thought.
  
  I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be
  working again at 77 -- but it was FUN.
  
  Ad astra per Asperger -- discovered at 67.
Cortland-Original Message-
From: Jim Hulbert 
Sent: May 26, 2021 7:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?









I first started in the EMC, Product Safety, and standards compliance aspect of engineering about 35 years ago.  At that time they were saying all the same things we are saying today:  Must be considered up front in designs.  Must be included
 in engineering education at the college/university level.  Management needs to commit to compliance.  I would also add that EMC was “black magic” (do people still say that?).   Apparently we still have a long way to go.  I wonder if they will still be saying
 these things 35 years from now.
 
Jim Hulbert
 


From: John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>

Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 5:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?


 
Like a “lot” of people here, I never had any formal education in either safety or EMC compliance – I just had to learn “on the job” about “what worked and what didn’t”, and often in very challenging situations.

(OTOH, I was never the “sharpest tool in the toolbox” in engineering  parlance – which was a “problem”  when engaging with local management which, frankly, mainly “didn’t to know”
☹, )

 
Therefore safety, standards compliance and EMC standards compliance REALLY MUST be an integral component of engineering education –
and ALSO for company management - forward from where we are “now”.
 
John E Allen
W. London, UK.
 
 


From: Dennis Ward <0dbeaa892a40-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>

Sent: 25 May 2021 21:09
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?


 
Having been in the EMC business now for going on 40+years, I concur with what Pete is saying.  The truth of the matter is, this field of study is sadly under taught and is still more hands on and learning by trial and error for the most
 part.  Yes, there are a lot of good ‘classes’ you can take, but the fact remains, this is more than not an OJT field.
 
As to manufacturers designing at the limit.  This is also true, and also problematic as it means far too many products still fail first time out. 

 
I don’t know if I would necessarily agree with the percentages reported, but it is getting a better. 

 
My last 20+ years has been working in the regulatory approvals end and I can say that failure to comply with rules and standards is still a big issue with manufacturers.
 
Thanks 
 


Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com | 
www.pctest.com | 
www.element.com 

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the recipient(s) named above.

 


From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>

Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 12:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?


 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of
 Element Materials Technology. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt about this email.


James,   
You don’t have to denigrate yourself as not being a guru.  You have plenty of experience in this as shown by your comments.  Sharing this is quite valuable to the others on this thread. 

   All of us started out as ignorant of any of these requirements because 

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Lfresearch Jose]

Hi Chas,

Sorry to be late to the table, always happens when there's no food on it ;-)

Over the last 30 years in our lab it has varied. Starting out around when the 
CE mark first hit products tended to be noisy, but the circuits were running 
much slower the net result being a likelihood of failure under 200 MHz. Bad 
design and poor layout were the culprits.

That improved as folks paid attention and about a decade ago we saw a 
significant number of designs that passed with margin first time. However, with 
the push to manufacture offshore we saw the emissions trend climb over the spec 
lines again. Some of this could be because switching got faster, but some was 
down to rudimentary mistakes being made over again. And some have been down to 
design changes by the contract manufacturer without telling the product owner.

One other trend we have seen is manufacturers building stuff from supposedly CE 
marked sub-assemblies. The problem being in the end design, they are 
implemented way differently than the way they were tested during the sub 
assembly test. SMPS in particular are big offenders.

All that said, we are running about 70% first time emissions pass rate if we 
exclude the problem designs referred to us to fix.

I would be interested to hear a summary of all the replies you get should you 
have time.

Take care,

Derek

> On May 24, 2021, at 9:46 AM, Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello EMC gurus!
> 
> Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the 
> Unintentional Emissions
> test first time? ​
> 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Brian Kunde]

I also concur with what has been posted by others.  But I would like to
inject one short commentary if I might.

Traditionally, we have found that a large percentage of emissions failures
are due to the over-the-counter peripherals and/or cables; a required part
of the overall test system but somewhat outside the control of the
customer.  I know this is not new information, but the customer is not
happy when they are paying good money troubleshooting a failure caused by
the peripherals or cables they chose.  And then they will ask the questions
I so dread, "How can they sell peripherals that do not meet the
requirements?".  I wish I had an answer.

So for our EMC lab, if we do not count the failures caused by
over-the-counter peripherals, the percentage of failures goes way down.

Piece out.  Stay safe.

The Other Brian

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 7:59 AM Jim Hulbert 
wrote:

> I first started in the EMC, Product Safety, and standards compliance
> aspect of engineering about 35 years ago.  At that time they were saying
> all the same things we are saying today:  Must be considered up front in
> designs.  Must be included in engineering education at the
> college/university level.  Management needs to commit to compliance.  I
> would also add that EMC was “black magic” (do people still say that?).
>  Apparently we still have a long way to go.  I wonder if they will still be
> saying these things 35 years from now.
>
>
>
> Jim Hulbert
>
>
>
> *From:* John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 25, 2021 5:59 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first
> time?
>
>
>
> Like a “lot” of people here, I never had any formal education in either
> safety or EMC compliance – I just had to learn “on the job” about “what
> worked and what didn’t”, and often in very challenging situations*. *
>
> *(OTOH, I was never the “sharpest tool in the toolbox” in engineering
>  parlance – which was a “problem”  when engaging with local management
> which, frankly, mainly “didn’t to know” **☹**, ) *
>
>
>
> Therefore safety, standards compliance and EMC standards compliance REALLY
> MUST be an integral component of engineering education –* and ALSO for
> company management *- forward from where we are “now”.
>
>
>
> John E Allen
>
> W. London, UK.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Dennis Ward <00000dbeaa892a40-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
> *Sent:* 25 May 2021 21:09
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
>
>
>
> Having been in the EMC business now for going on 40+years, I concur with
> what Pete is saying.  The truth of the matter is, this field of study is
> sadly under taught and is still more hands on and learning by trial and
> error for the most part.  Yes, there are a lot of good ‘classes’ you can
> take, but the fact remains, this is more than not an OJT field.
>
>
>
> As to manufacturers designing at the limit.  This is also true, and also
> problematic as it means far too many products still fail first time out.
>
>
>
> I don’t know if I would necessarily agree with the percentages reported,
> but it is getting a better.
>
>
>
> My last 20+ years has been working in the regulatory approvals end and I
> can say that failure to comply with rules and standards is still a big
> issue with manufacturers.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> *Dennis Ward *Senior Reviewing Engineer
> PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
> 7185 Oakland Mills Road
> Columbia, MD  21045
> 1 410 290 6652)
>
> dennis.w...@pctest.com | www.pctest.com
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pctest.com%2F__%3B!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!G5PoiHtwygC2c1-K2AWMZRvCCE6QLOzINzbfeu8z5DkDEBTyzIO5ZyK96tdSCfF-YjrMgA%24=04%7C01%7CJim.Hulbert%40bluecrestinc.com%7C1f6f0b889b904fc9613808d91fc851d5%7C8310f036fe8d4702a1e0177e9320227c%7C0%7C0%7C637575767516329535%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=2o9iKUKBvzwvUEMRFXxAErAGSZFL46Sec%2F81smmJE%2BI%3D=0>
> | www.element.com
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fwww.element.com%2F__%3B!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!G5PoiHtwygC2c1-K2AWMZRvCCE6QLOzINzbfeu8z5DkDEBTyzIO5ZyK96tdSCfFSJ1C9Rw%24=04%7C01%7CJim.Hulbert%40bluecrestinc.com%7C1f6f0b889b904fc9613808d91fc851d5%7C8310f036fe8d4702a1e0177e9320227c%7C0%7C0%7C637575767516339494%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=Oys8Fo5Q2WulQ8Xg04hOQtANpV4MRF%2BwyBMJYMG7f2Y%3D=0>
>
> This co

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi John:

 

“Therefore safety, standards compliance and EMC standards compliance REALLY 
MUST be an integral component of engineering education – and ALSO for company 
management…”

 

While I agree, in practice the only time company management addresses safety 
and other compliance matters is when an incident becomes public.  The usual 
public response from management is that “safety is foremost at our company.”  
BS!  The foremost items are: profits and growth.  A safety incident takes 
management time (reluctantly) away from profits and growth.

 

Compliance is an engineering and manufacturing process just as and equal to any 
other engineering and manufacturing process.  If done competently, it has no 
special effect on the schedule.  So, management has no need for special 
interest in compliance.  What is important is that management hires competent 
compliance employees.  

 

Stay safe, and best regards,

Rich

 

 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[John E Allen]

Like a “lot” of people here, I never had any formal education in either safety 
or EMC compliance – I just had to learn “on the job” about “what worked and 
what didn’t”, and often in very challenging situations. 

(OTOH, I was never the “sharpest tool in the toolbox” in engineering  parlance 
– which was a “problem”  when engaging with local management which, frankly, 
mainly “didn’t to know” ☹, ) 

 

Therefore safety, standards compliance and EMC standards compliance REALLY MUST 
be an integral component of engineering education – and ALSO for company 
management - forward from where we are “now”.

 

John E Allen

W. London, UK.

 

 

From: Dennis Ward <0dbeaa892a40-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: 25 May 2021 21:09
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

Having been in the EMC business now for going on 40+years, I concur with what 
Pete is saying.  The truth of the matter is, this field of study is sadly under 
taught and is still more hands on and learning by trial and error for the most 
part.  Yes, there are a lot of good ‘classes’ you can take, but the fact 
remains, this is more than not an OJT field.

 

As to manufacturers designing at the limit.  This is also true, and also 
problematic as it means far too many products still fail first time out.  

 

I don’t know if I would necessarily agree with the percentages reported, but it 
is getting a better.  

 

My last 20+ years has been working in the regulatory approvals end and I can 
say that failure to comply with rules and standards is still a big issue with 
manufacturers.

 

Thanks 

 


Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com <mailto:dennis.w...@pctest.com>  | www.pctest.com 
<http://www.pctest.com/>  | www.element.com <http://www.element.com/>  

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.

 

From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 12:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.

James,   

You don’t have to denigrate yourself as not being a guru.  You have plenty of 
experience in this as shown by your comments.  Sharing this is quite valuable 
to the others on this thread.  

   All of us started out as ignorant of any of these requirements 
because they are not taught in formal college level courses; a few exceptions 
seem to exist.  

   Some folks might get specialized training – if they work for a 
gov’t agency or a safety test organization; else it’s all OJT.  

   I don’t see that changing any time soon; the academic folks have 
their interests which continue to push mathematical analysis techniques (and 
that will continue).  More and more technical folks will get higher degrees 
[you know what BS is, MS is More of the Same and PhD is Piled higher and Deeper 
:>) ], hardly any of which is of interest at our daily working level.  
Manufacturers will continue to steal trained folks from test labs; probably not 
too bad a deal especially if the folks move back and forth to spread what 
they’ve learned going each way.  

   Finally, the standards keep getting more complex (PhD effect) 
and interrelated as issues are delved into more deeply; plus manufacturers are 
getting better trained to design near the limit without as much margin so the 
compliance is close to falling off of the edge of the world at any moment.  

 

   So keep at what you are doing as long as you enjoy it; then get 
out gracefully – keeping your reputation intact to maintain a legacy as you go. 
  

   

   Enough of Phil 101 today.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 
<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2FPeter%2520Perkins=04%7C01%7Cdennis.ward%40pctest.com%7Cf10796d676544029a29a08d91fb4b724%7C048204512a274c35a1d499fa8eb67e80%7C0%7C0%7C637575683315196024%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=vMP7NQX0RVdQw7XX7mD2zN56lfu9cAx6HgLOGauUJ2A%3D=0>
 www.re

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Dennis Ward]

Having been in the EMC business now for going on 40+years, I concur with what 
Pete is saying.  The truth of the matter is, this field of study is sadly under 
taught and is still more hands on and learning by trial and error for the most 
part.  Yes, there are a lot of good ‘classes’ you can take, but the fact 
remains, this is more than not an OJT field.

As to manufacturers designing at the limit.  This is also true, and also 
problematic as it means far too many products still fail first time out.

I don’t know if I would necessarily agree with the percentages reported, but it 
is getting a better.

My last 20+ years has been working in the regulatory approvals end and I can 
say that failure to comply with rules and standards is still a big issue with 
manufacturers.

Thanks

[cid:image001.png@01D75167.18F10910]
Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com<mailto:dennis.w...@pctest.com> | 
www.pctest.com<http://www.pctest.com/> | 
www.element.com<http://www.element.com/>

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.

From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 12:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?


CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.
James,
You don’t have to denigrate yourself as not being a guru.  You have plenty of 
experience in this as shown by your comments.  Sharing this is quite valuable 
to the others on this thread.
   All of us started out as ignorant of any of these requirements 
because they are not taught in formal college level courses; a few exceptions 
seem to exist.
   Some folks might get specialized training – if they work for a 
gov’t agency or a safety test organization; else it’s all OJT.
   I don’t see that changing any time soon; the academic folks have 
their interests which continue to push mathematical analysis techniques (and 
that will continue).  More and more technical folks will get higher degrees 
[you know what BS is, MS is More of the Same and PhD is Piled higher and Deeper 
:>) ], hardly any of which is of interest at our daily working level.  
Manufacturers will continue to steal trained folks from test labs; probably not 
too bad a deal especially if the folks move back and forth to spread what 
they’ve learned going each way.
   Finally, the standards keep getting more complex (PhD effect) 
and interrelated as issues are delved into more deeply; plus manufacturers are 
getting better trained to design near the limit without as much margin so the 
compliance is close to falling off of the edge of the world at any moment.

   So keep at what you are doing as long as you enjoy it; then get 
out gracefully – keeping your reputation intact to maintain a legacy as you go.

   Enough of Phil 101 today.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 1067
Albany, ORe  97321-0413

503/452-1201

IEEE Life Fellow
IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer
www.researchgate.net<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2FPeter%2520Perkins=04%7C01%7Cdennis.ward%40pctest.com%7Cf10796d676544029a29a08d91fb4b724%7C048204512a274c35a1d499fa8eb67e80%7C0%7C0%7C637575683315196024%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=vMP7NQX0RVdQw7XX7mD2zN56lfu9cAx6HgLOGauUJ2A%3D=0>
 search my name
p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>


Entropy ain’t what it used to be

From: James Pawson (U3C) 
mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk>>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 1:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

(replying even though I’m not a guru)

Hi Charles, hope all is well with you

Speaking from my own experience. Over the last four years of running a 
consultancy, pre-compliance and low cost test EMC laboratory I would (very 
roughly) estimate that around:


  *   50% of products pass their desired radiated emissions limits without any 
modification

  *   33% or less pass all of the applicable tests first time without 
modification

The major caveats and notes here are that


  *   These figures are for customers products where the EMC performance is not 
known before testing. We do a lot of work helping people solve existing EMC 
problems but w

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Pete Perkins]

James,   

You don’t have to denigrate yourself as not being a guru.  You have plenty of 
experience in this as shown by your comments.  Sharing this is quite valuable 
to the others on this thread.  

   All of us started out as ignorant of any of these requirements 
because they are not taught in formal college level courses; a few exceptions 
seem to exist.  

   Some folks might get specialized training – if they work for a 
gov’t agency or a safety test organization; else it’s all OJT.  

   I don’t see that changing any time soon; the academic folks have 
their interests which continue to push mathematical analysis techniques (and 
that will continue).  More and more technical folks will get higher degrees 
[you know what BS is, MS is More of the Same and PhD is Piled higher and Deeper 
:>) ], hardly any of which is of interest at our daily working level.  
Manufacturers will continue to steal trained folks from test labs; probably not 
too bad a deal especially if the folks move back and forth to spread what 
they’ve learned going each way.  

   Finally, the standards keep getting more complex (PhD effect) 
and interrelated as issues are delved into more deeply; plus manufacturers are 
getting better trained to design near the limit without as much margin so the 
compliance is close to falling off of the edge of the world at any moment.  

 

   So keep at what you are doing as long as you enjoy it; then get 
out gracefully – keeping your reputation intact to maintain a legacy as you go. 
  

   

   Enough of Phil 101 today.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: James Pawson (U3C)  
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 1:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

(replying even though I’m not a guru)

 

Hi Charles, hope all is well with you

 

Speaking from my own experience. Over the last four years of running a 
consultancy, pre-compliance and low cost test EMC laboratory I would (very 
roughly) estimate that around:

 

*   50% of products pass their desired radiated emissions limits without 
any modification

*   33% or less pass all of the applicable tests first time without 
modification

 

The major caveats and notes here are that

 

*   These figures are for customers products where the EMC performance is 
not known before testing. We do a lot of work helping people solve existing EMC 
problems but we are not counting this in these figures.
*   Most of my customers are smaller businesses that can’t afford to employ 
an engineer to just look after compliance. That job role is either split 
amongst several people or the engineer in question has to look after quality, 
manufacturing, sustaining, thermal, system, and everything else. Speaking as 
someone who has designed many products and systems in the past, trying to 
design for functionality whilst simultaneously considering best EMC performance 
is HARD. I use the metaphor of 
*   The products that pass first time generally fall into one of three 
categories

*   Products that we have design reviewed before the design was finalised
*   Retests of products that have already been through our lab once
*   Products that are very simple in nature

*   Our hit-rate at being able to solve our customers problems is around 
90-95%
*   The “ones that got away” where we were unable to help deliver a 
compliant include

*   No action taken: Products where it was deemed by the manufacturer not 
economically feasible to modify the product (e.g. product going end of life)
*   No further communications from the manufacturer so we don’t get to find 
out what happened next (no news is good news, right?)

 

I would echo the sentiments of others on this thread regarding the need to 
design in compliance from the start.

 

One of the problems with the field of compliance is that it is too often 
“learned through experience in industry” and not explicitly taught. When it is 
taught at academic level it is often a surface treatment with a theoretical 
look at shielding or maybe crosstalk with no other practical context or 
background.

 

The split between industry and academia is one of the possible causes. Yes, 
there are exceptions to this but they primarily remain exceptions. I had 
discussions with a local university about some guest lectures on compliance and 
the theme of the response was “it doesn’t really fit into any of our modules” 
and “we can’t have it as an op

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[McBurney, Ian]

Mike Sherman’s view exactly mirrors my experience in the 25 years I’ve been 
doing EMC testing!

Regards,

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer
Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial estate,
Penryn,
Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK.
Tel: 01326 372070
Email: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com

From: MIKE SHERMAN 
Sent: 24 May 2021 21:29
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

We have found "pre-screening" EMC testing early in the development cycle to be 
a good investment. EMC test results can be notoriously hard to predict, even 
when using EMC-savvy design principles. Extra PCB board spins are cheap in the 
context of a larger or time critical project.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
On 05/24/2021 2:58 PM John E Allen 
<09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 wrote:


“From much experience” I can only concur with Pete, Monrad and yourself –  
safety, EMC  & RoHS compliance must be  explicitly built into the Product 
Lifecycle structure and process. Failure to do that, and to then make sure that 
that all WORKS is a route to “painful”, time-consuming and expensive results 
(“been there and seen that” – and recounted that here -  far too many times!). ☹

John E Allen
W.London, UK




From: Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org>>
Sent: 24 May 2021 19:45
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?


Hi Charles:

Not what you asked for, but a set of principles for success with third-party 
testing, from a product safety point of view:


  1.  The design engineer and the product safety engineer should be able to 
predict the outcome of any test.
  2.  Testing simply confirms (or not) the prediction.
  3.  Failure of a test or other requirement at the third-party delays the 
third-party investigation which can imperil the product schedule.  To maintain 
schedule, the product must comply with all tests before it is submitted to the 
third-party.
  4.  If the product that you successfully tested fails a third-party test, 
then your or the third-party test was in error.  This can open a dialogue 
between you and the third-party as to test process.
  5.  Tests to standards requirements are either pass or fail; always record 
the measurement.  If the test requires a stimulation, then adjust the 
stimulation to the point of failure and record the measurement.  Both tell you 
the margin between pass and failure.
  6.  Provide your measurement data to the third-party when you submit the 
product.  If the third-party measurement data differs from your data, some 
third-parties will do their own investigation as to why.

In my opinion, EMC is not a black art and can follow these same principles.

Stay safe, and best regards,
Rich




From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?


Hello EMC gurus!



Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the Unintentional 
Emissions
test first time? ​




-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://url6.mailanyone.net/v1/?m=1llHCr-0007MK-5U=57e1b682=K28z-5rqUuXtQW1EZ-aM2QPuweYSoG9opnqv2tLcnwvgHObEQTRSAG8vfVc5XQyUuKwpLDwQPb3v3uI_cJ53VIucx1F78JTJt34Ozjub0rp-6xJnMXFG4Ugaug9jk5uOuDd6PZ6_gSzPSq_X4OY6cQqr7grbsKN669_djbvLDmf2XSm7vp-hqiA44kts5zuEvbHheIOCQyWvJfC2JnaPEUjUHJl3YHc9lncI4su-V703_rqD3x6lEXe5ZXJN5Jkm>

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://url6.mailanyone.net/v1/?m=1llHCr-0007MK-5U=57e1b682=MkqEKsoPZjSWKhkEdWc24yIR40myTodvI3EsazBgofJBbvU_Ibv1ybHncLIYWZM88cj4HVHRZGN0Zk2sx7_ixLJmUdlJ5lVvKg0sNyWfCGBWW6bpbH0q0tf6gKE6bE8GIgcLZ9lnZzc12ZrMSW5XVHoYR4t3ymRXEf6_i0cFaIS1v5uslQixybkwQLml-6RFrA9jxo8TJwh-qQuh3NZtJ-F0lrY9xvIg2P3fnkdG8smicWWwtsPjj8WPAGENiC-2>
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://url6.mailanyone.net/v1/?m=1llHCr-0007MK-5U=57e1b682=mcxkCyJXC5WTg6TNGGxKSf1lT4N-LIRJ_s7F9DUFNvVkKbirmcY7HpMuml1rKd7fgd1xeQx7_NxWCadXuq3CyonaJLQgDvEEL45x2ziAYwAckFZLVw8Qzlk8q0t96xuFPOz9R1LwhGlLJM6LBYappQwxN2wYqi31_au4k2LRtmUft_zMmom9uhb-ANp34FdrR-nL8DCrTeht36O15K_Uk5kEmf83EkQds94SOZvfZ6A>
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)<http

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[James Pawson (U3C)]

(replying even though I’m not a guru)



Hi Charles, hope all is well with you



Speaking from my own experience. Over the last four years of running a 
consultancy, pre-compliance and low cost test EMC laboratory I would (very 
roughly) estimate that around:



*   50% of products pass their desired radiated emissions limits without 
any modification

*   33% or less pass all of the applicable tests first time without 
modification



The major caveats and notes here are that



*   These figures are for customers products where the EMC performance is 
not known before testing. We do a lot of work helping people solve existing EMC 
problems but we are not counting this in these figures.
*   Most of my customers are smaller businesses that can’t afford to employ 
an engineer to just look after compliance. That job role is either split 
amongst several people or the engineer in question has to look after quality, 
manufacturing, sustaining, thermal, system, and everything else. Speaking as 
someone who has designed many products and systems in the past, trying to 
design for functionality whilst simultaneously considering best EMC performance 
is HARD. I use the metaphor of
*   The products that pass first time generally fall into one of three 
categories

*   Products that we have design reviewed before the design was finalised
*   Retests of products that have already been through our lab once
*   Products that are very simple in nature

*   Our hit-rate at being able to solve our customers problems is around 
90-95%
*   The “ones that got away” where we were unable to help deliver a 
compliant include

*   No action taken: Products where it was deemed by the manufacturer not 
economically feasible to modify the product (e.g. product going end of life)
*   No further communications from the manufacturer so we don’t get to find 
out what happened next (no news is good news, right?)



I would echo the sentiments of others on this thread regarding the need to 
design in compliance from the start.



One of the problems with the field of compliance is that it is too often 
“learned through experience in industry” and not explicitly taught. When it is 
taught at academic level it is often a surface treatment with a theoretical 
look at shielding or maybe crosstalk with no other practical context or 
background.



The split between industry and academia is one of the possible causes. Yes, 
there are exceptions to this but they primarily remain exceptions. I had 
discussions with a local university about some guest lectures on compliance and 
the theme of the response was “it doesn’t really fit into any of our modules” 
and “we can’t have it as an optional lecture as none of the students will 
attend”.



The number of times I hear “oh, thanks for that. No one has every explained it 
that clearly before” is worrying!



All the best

James









James Pawson

The EMC Problem Solver



Unit 3 Compliance Ltd

EMC : Environmental : Safety : CE + UKCA : Consultancy



 <http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/> www.unit3compliance.co.uk  |  +44(0)1274 
911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298



From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
Sent: 24 May 2021 15:47
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?



Hello EMC gurus!



Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the Unintentional 
Emissions
test first time? ​





-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> >



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments 

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Pete Perkins]

Chas, et al,  Yes, great responses; lot’s of experience out there.  

 

   To answer your recent expression of your question we need to 
understand that the world is not static; people move around plus come and go.  

 

   Altho I get more that my share of ‘We have a product to ship 
next week that needs CE, can you come in and do that for us’ (which has led to 
some very interesting projects), most places that are working with all of this 
regulatory web of issues understand that they need to meet the requirements and 
expect the design teams to come up to speed on the details.  This is a moving 
target; how many 10s of thousands of new engineers are graduated in the world 
each year and sucked up into companies and are given significant assignments 
with minimal supervision and training.  

 

   This leads to one of my basic understandings as to what I do.  
The collective members of the project teams are like a stew and the ‘cook’ 
(company leader at some level) stirs the pot regularly to make a better 
outcome.  This provided opportunities for us knowledgeable folks to jump in and 
do handholding and informal training in all of this as part of our work on a 
project.  It’s usually satisfying if you like to help folks do their job well 
(and they accept the help).  

 

   Because of the addition of newbies regularly and the ever 
changing requirements this is a never ending cycle (and opportunity).  

 

   So, Chas, yes, the experienced folks are getting better and 
better at this stuff and they have a high pass rate with the labs.  They don’t 
stay in one place too long if they are very good.  Opportunity exists to help 
the present team improve in what they do.  

 

   Anyone want to replace me so I can really retire and get back to 
more fishing?  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook]  
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 12:07 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

Hi all – What wonderful responses.  I understand that without the proper 
processes in attention that the chances of 
passing first time is low indeed. One could argue that the first time passers 
have such a system in place and I was interested
in how much EMC has been integrated into the product design process in recent 
years!

 

Chas

 

From: Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org> > 
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 12:45 PM
To: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com> >; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: RE: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: ri...@ieee.org 
<mailto:ri...@ieee.org>  

 

Hi Charles:

 

Not what you asked for, but a set of principles for success with third-party 
testing, from a product safety point of view:

 

1.  The design engineer and the product safety engineer should be able to 
predict the outcome of any test.
2.  Testing simply confirms (or not) the prediction.
3.  Failure of a test or other requirement at the third-party delays the 
third-party investigation which can imperil the product schedule.  To maintain 
schedule, the product must comply with all tests before it is submitted to the 
third-party.
4.  If the product that you successfully tested fails a third-party test, 
then your or the third-party test was in error.  This can open a dialogue 
between you and the third-party as to test process.
5.  Tests to standards requirements are either pass or fail; always record 
the measurement.  If the test requires a stimulation, then adjust the 
stimulation to the point of failure and record the measurement.  Both tell you 
the margin between pass and failure.  
6.  Provide your measurement data to the third-party when you submit the 
product.  If the third-party measurement data differs from your data, some 
third-parties will do their own investigation as to why.  

 

In my opinion, EMC is not a black art and can follow these same principles.

 

Stay safe, and best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com> > 
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

Hello EMC gurus!

 

Calling all labs - In your experience how many pro

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Douglas E Powell]

Pete,

I definitely agree with you on your points about experience. It seems the
highly experienced ones are those who are most successful on first pass EMC
testing. You can often tell who these people are on the design team by the
number of war stories they can tell. I sometimes think of this in the same
way as parenting. You can read all the books and get all the advice, but it
seems getting your own hands-on experience is the key.

-Doug

Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 11:20 AM Pete Perkins <
0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

> Charles, et al, You question is rather simplistic, in my opinion.
>
>
>
>From my more than 25 years doing safety & regulatory
> consulting with dozens and dozens of companies both large and small, I find
> that the experience of the design team is the key to meeting the
> requirements early on.
>
>
>
>First timers (no prior experience having an outside lab
> test any of their work for compliance) has a pretty low pass rate; no
> matter how much advice is given during the design phase.
>
>
>
>Design teams quickly gain experience ramp up & meet
> compliance requirements on the next project or two providing the design is
> similar to their earlier experience.
>
>
>
>This level of competence can be confounded (made worse) if
> there are substantial changes in the design team between projects.  Newbies
> always think they understand the needs and design accordingly; unless an
> experienced team manager can ferret out the issue before testing and get
> them to change.
>
>
>
>Additional features (especially radios) complicate the
> issue, even for experienced design teams.
>
>
>
>To specifically answer your question, first designs from an
> inexperienced design team generally will need another pass (or more) thru
> the lab to qualify.  Experienced teams will have a high 1st time pass
> rate in most cases.
>
>
>
>To relate one scenario, a complex electronic research
> instrument was developed by a 3 man team of PhD physicists who struggled
> when going thru the EMC lab; they had no prior product certification
> experience.  I had offered to go to the lab with them but they thought they
> could handle it themselves.  They had no concept of the needs to provide
> the proper isolation between major pieces (e.g. cables routinely pierced
> the chassis and made connexion well within the equipment).  After the 2nd
> failure the lab manager, a  long-time colleague, talked to me and said that
> they weren’t listening to his comments about needed changes to fix it.
> Upon talking to them, they had dismissed him as just a technician (ignoring
> his EE training and EMC lab experience) and they believed that they knew
> better (but not good enough, as evidenced by the continuing failure).  So
> we had a ‘managerial discussion’ and I went to the EMC lab with them from
> then  on.  The baling wire fixes tried at the lab showed improvement when
> applied and led to installing proper connectors at the chassis interfaces
> along with some other changes; it finally passed.
>
>
>
>Others probably have more interesting cases to relate,
> too.
>
>
>
>Does that fit with your experience?
>
>
>
> :>) br,  Pete
>
>
>
> Peter E Perkins, PE
>
> Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
>
> PO Box 1067
>
> Albany, ORe  97321-0413
>
>
>
> 503/452-1201
>
>
>
> IEEE Life Fellow
>
> IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer
>
> www.researchgate.net <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> search
> my name
>
> p.perk...@ieee.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Entropy ain’t what it used to be
>
>
>
> *From:* Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
> *Sent:* Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
>
>
>
> Hello EMC gurus!
>
>
>
> Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the
> Unintentional Emissions
> test first time? ​
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Com

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[MIKE SHERMAN]

We have found "pre-screening" EMC testing early in the development cycle to be 
a good investment. EMC test results can be notoriously hard to predict, even 
when using EMC-savvy design principles. Extra PCB board spins are cheap in the 
context of a larger or time critical project.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.

> On 05/24/2021 2:58 PM John E Allen 
> <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
>  
>  
> 
> “From much experience” I can only concur with Pete, Monrad and yourself – 
>  safety, EMC  & RoHS compliance must be  explicitly built into the Product 
> Lifecycle structure and process. Failure to do that, and to then make sure 
> that that all WORKS is a route to “painful”, time-consuming and expensive 
> results (“been there and seen that” – and recounted that here -  far too many 
> times!). ☹
> 
>  
> 
> John E Allen
> 
> W.London, UK  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: Richard Nute 
>     Sent: 24 May 2021 19:45
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Charles:
> 
>  
> 
> Not what you asked for, but a set of principles for success with 
> third-party testing, from a product safety point of view:
> 
>  
> 
>1. The design engineer and the product safety engineer should be able 
> to predict the outcome of any test.
>2. Testing simply confirms (or not) the prediction.
>3. Failure of a test or other requirement at the third-party delays 
> the third-party investigation which can imperil the product schedule.  To 
> maintain schedule, the product must comply with all tests before it is 
> submitted to the third-party.
>4. If the product that you successfully tested fails a third-party 
> test, then your or the third-party test was in error.  This can open a 
> dialogue between you and the third-party as to test process.
>5. Tests to standards requirements are either pass or fail; always 
> record the measurement.  If the test requires a stimulation, then adjust the 
> stimulation to the point of failure and record the measurement.  Both tell 
> you the margin between pass and failure. 
>6. Provide your measurement data to the third-party when you submit 
> the product.  If the third-party measurement data differs from your data, 
> some third-parties will do their own investigation as to why. 
> 
>  
> 
> In my opinion, EMC is not a black art and can follow these same 
> principles.
> 
>  
> 
> Stay safe, and best regards,
> 
> Rich
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook]  mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com >
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
> 
>  
> 
> Hello EMC gurus!
> 
>  
> 
> Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the 
> Unintentional Emissions
> test first time? 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site 
> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org >
> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org >
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org >
> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com >
> 
> -
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
&

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[John E Allen]

“From much experience” I can only concur with Pete, Monrad and yourself –  
safety, EMC  & RoHS compliance must be  explicitly built into the Product 
Lifecycle structure and process. Failure to do that, and to then make sure that 
that all WORKS is a route to “painful”, time-consuming and expensive results 
(“been there and seen that” – and recounted that here -  far too many times!). ☹

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK  

 

 

 

 

From: Richard Nute  
Sent: 24 May 2021 19:45
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

 

Hi Charles:

 

Not what you asked for, but a set of principles for success with third-party 
testing, from a product safety point of view:

 

1.  The design engineer and the product safety engineer should be able to 
predict the outcome of any test.
2.  Testing simply confirms (or not) the prediction.
3.  Failure of a test or other requirement at the third-party delays the 
third-party investigation which can imperil the product schedule.  To maintain 
schedule, the product must comply with all tests before it is submitted to the 
third-party.
4.  If the product that you successfully tested fails a third-party test, 
then your or the third-party test was in error.  This can open a dialogue 
between you and the third-party as to test process.
5.  Tests to standards requirements are either pass or fail; always record 
the measurement.  If the test requires a stimulation, then adjust the 
stimulation to the point of failure and record the measurement.  Both tell you 
the margin between pass and failure.  
6.  Provide your measurement data to the third-party when you submit the 
product.  If the third-party measurement data differs from your data, some 
third-parties will do their own investigation as to why.  

 

In my opinion, EMC is not a black art and can follow these same principles.

 

Stay safe, and best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com> > 
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

Hello EMC gurus!

 

Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the Unintentional 
Emissions
test first time? ​

 

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Grasso, Charles [Outlook]]

Hi all – What wonderful responses.  I understand that without the proper 
processes in attention that the chances of
passing first time is low indeed. One could argue that the first time passers 
have such a system in place and I was interested
in how much EMC has been integrated into the product design process in recent 
years!

Chas

From: Richard Nute 
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 12:45 PM
To: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
ri...@ieee.org<mailto:ri...@ieee.org>

Hi Charles:

Not what you asked for, but a set of principles for success with third-party 
testing, from a product safety point of view:


  1.  The design engineer and the product safety engineer should be able to 
predict the outcome of any test.
  2.  Testing simply confirms (or not) the prediction.
  3.  Failure of a test or other requirement at the third-party delays the 
third-party investigation which can imperil the product schedule.  To maintain 
schedule, the product must comply with all tests before it is submitted to the 
third-party.
  4.  If the product that you successfully tested fails a third-party test, 
then your or the third-party test was in error.  This can open a dialogue 
between you and the third-party as to test process.
  5.  Tests to standards requirements are either pass or fail; always record 
the measurement.  If the test requires a stimulation, then adjust the 
stimulation to the point of failure and record the measurement.  Both tell you 
the margin between pass and failure.
  6.  Provide your measurement data to the third-party when you submit the 
product.  If the third-party measurement data differs from your data, some 
third-parties will do their own investigation as to why.

In my opinion, EMC is not a black art and can follow these same principles.

Stay safe, and best regards,
Rich




From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?


Hello EMC gurus!



Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the Unintentional 
Emissions
test first time? ​




-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Richard Nute]

 

Hi Charles:

 

Not what you asked for, but a set of principles for success with third-party 
testing, from a product safety point of view:

 

1.  The design engineer and the product safety engineer should be able to 
predict the outcome of any test.
2.  Testing simply confirms (or not) the prediction.
3.  Failure of a test or other requirement at the third-party delays the 
third-party investigation which can imperil the product schedule.  To maintain 
schedule, the product must comply with all tests before it is submitted to the 
third-party.
4.  If the product that you successfully tested fails a third-party test, 
then your or the third-party test was in error.  This can open a dialogue 
between you and the third-party as to test process.
5.  Tests to standards requirements are either pass or fail; always record 
the measurement.  If the test requires a stimulation, then adjust the 
stimulation to the point of failure and record the measurement.  Both tell you 
the margin between pass and failure.  
6.  Provide your measurement data to the third-party when you submit the 
product.  If the third-party measurement data differs from your data, some 
third-parties will do their own investigation as to why.  

 

In my opinion, EMC is not a black art and can follow these same principles.

 

Stay safe, and best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook]  
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

Hello EMC gurus!

 

Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the Unintentional 
Emissions
test first time? ​

 

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] [External] : Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Monrad Monsen]

Hi Chaz,
I concur with Pete.  The key question is how much the development engineering 
team is willing to take input from hardware compliance experts (both EMC and 
safety).  Does the team invite EMC & safety input early in the development from 
concept to design (including design reviews), etc.?  Are development engineers 
checking on RoHS compliance for all components from the beginning as they 
select components? Are alternatives (extra decoupling cap points and shielding 
options worked into the design to be added as proved necessary in early trial 
pre-testing?  Is testing of early prototypes planned into the schedule to 
confirm that the design is going the right direction?  All of these are 
indicators that the final qualification testing will go smoothly with no 
surprises.  In contrast, if hardware compliance only considered as an 
afterthought with the dream that hardware compliance will just be a rubber 
stamp acceptance of what they have done, the development team is likely heading 
toward a rude awakening that could hugely impact the development schedule.

At an old company (not the one I work for today), the company experimented with 
a budget process that allocated funds to individual development programs and 
forced all outside teams (like EMC/Safety/RoHS, packaging, testing, sourcing, 
etc.) to “contract” for funding in support of those development programs.  Most 
development programs recognized the importance of EMC/Safety/RoHS, but one disk 
array development team decided that they did not need any EMC or safety 
development design support and instead only “contracted” for the bare essential 
final test and certification submission support.  Of course, this was against 
our advice, but they felt they knew better and could save some headcount cost 
(spend their funds and headcount elsewhere).  That disk array system had the 
claim to fame of being 24dB over the emissions limit, and fixing the problems 
caused redesign and anguish that delayed the product release by a year at great 
cost to the program (many EMC design support hours and engineering redesign 
hours).

That was the last year that this budgeting scheme was used, and senior 
management made it clear to all development teams that EMC/safety/RoHS must be 
involved early in the development process.

Hope this helps.
Monrad

From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 11:20 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] : Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

Charles, et al, You question is rather simplistic, in my opinion.

   From my more than 25 years doing safety & regulatory consulting 
with dozens and dozens of companies both large and small, I find that the 
experience of the design team is the key to meeting the requirements early on.

   First timers (no prior experience having an outside lab test any 
of their work for compliance) has a pretty low pass rate; no matter how much 
advice is given during the design phase.

   Design teams quickly gain experience ramp up & meet compliance 
requirements on the next project or two providing the design is similar to 
their earlier experience.

   This level of competence can be confounded (made worse) if there 
are substantial changes in the design team between projects.  Newbies always 
think they understand the needs and design accordingly; unless an experienced 
team manager can ferret out the issue before testing and get them to change.

   Additional features (especially radios) complicate the issue, 
even for experienced design teams.

   To specifically answer your question, first designs from an 
inexperienced design team generally will need another pass (or more) thru the 
lab to qualify.  Experienced teams will have a high 1st time pass rate in most 
cases.

   To relate one scenario, a complex electronic research instrument 
was developed by a 3 man team of PhD physicists who struggled when going thru 
the EMC lab; they had no prior product certification experience.  I had offered 
to go to the lab with them but they thought they could handle it themselves.  
They had no concept of the needs to provide the proper isolation between major 
pieces (e.g. cables routinely pierced the chassis and made connexion well 
within the equipment).  After the 2nd failure the lab manager, a  long-time 
colleague, talked to me and said that they weren’t listening to his comments 
about needed changes to fix it.  Upon talking to them, they had dismissed him 
as just a technician (ignoring his EE training and EMC lab experience) and they 
believed that they knew better (but not good enough, as evidenced by the 
continuing failure).  So we had a ‘managerial discussion’ and I went to the EMC 
lab with them from then  on.  The baling wire fixes tried at the lab showed 
improvement when applied and led to

Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Pete Perkins]

Charles, et al, You question is rather simplistic, in my opinion.  

 

   From my more than 25 years doing safety & regulatory consulting 
with dozens and dozens of companies both large and small, I find that the 
experience of the design team is the key to meeting the requirements early on.  

 

   First timers (no prior experience having an outside lab test any 
of their work for compliance) has a pretty low pass rate; no matter how much 
advice is given during the design phase.  

 

   Design teams quickly gain experience ramp up & meet compliance 
requirements on the next project or two providing the design is similar to 
their earlier experience.  

 

   This level of competence can be confounded (made worse) if there 
are substantial changes in the design team between projects.  Newbies always 
think they understand the needs and design accordingly; unless an experienced 
team manager can ferret out the issue before testing and get them to change.  

 

   Additional features (especially radios) complicate the issue, 
even for experienced design teams.  

 

   To specifically answer your question, first designs from an 
inexperienced design team generally will need another pass (or more) thru the 
lab to qualify.  Experienced teams will have a high 1st time pass rate in most 
cases.  

 

   To relate one scenario, a complex electronic research instrument 
was developed by a 3 man team of PhD physicists who struggled when going thru 
the EMC lab; they had no prior product certification experience.  I had offered 
to go to the lab with them but they thought they could handle it themselves.  
They had no concept of the needs to provide the proper isolation between major 
pieces (e.g. cables routinely pierced the chassis and made connexion well 
within the equipment).  After the 2nd failure the lab manager, a  long-time 
colleague, talked to me and said that they weren’t listening to his comments 
about needed changes to fix it.  Upon talking to them, they had dismissed him 
as just a technician (ignoring his EE training and EMC lab experience) and they 
believed that they knew better (but not good enough, as evidenced by the 
continuing failure).  So we had a ‘managerial discussion’ and I went to the EMC 
lab with them from then  on.  The baling wire fixes tried at the lab showed 
improvement when applied and led to installing proper connectors at the chassis 
interfaces along with some other changes; it finally passed.

 

   Others probably have more interesting cases to relate, too.  

 

   Does that fit with your experience?

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my 
name

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook]  
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 7:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

 

Hello EMC gurus!

 

Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the Unintentional 
Emissions
test first time? ​

 

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.or

[PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?

[Grasso, Charles [Outlook]]

Hello EMC gurus!


Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the Unintentional 
Emissions
test first time? ?



-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: