RE: EMI Receivers
There is something I do not understand about this discussion. An instrument, IMHO, should not primarily named by its application. In this case, I would call it a test receiver, not an EMI receiver (not good) or EMC receiver (even worse). The same test receiver can be used to measure EMI, but also to measure properties of an RF transmitter. The German term 'Meßempfänger', which means literally measuring receiver coins this quite nicely. Best regards, Michael Nagel Michael Nagel Senior Staff EMC Test Engineer Embedded Computing Emerson Network Power T +49-89-9608-0 F +49-89-9608-2376 michael.na...@emerson.com www.emersonnetworkpower.com/embeddedcomputing Emerson Network Power - Embedded Computing GmbH, Lilienthalstr. 15, D-85579 Neubiberg/Landkreis München, Deutschland / Germany. Geschäftsführer Josef Wenzl, Amtsgericht München HRB 171431, VAT/USt.-ID: DE 127472241 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Javor Sent: Freitag, 28. November 2008 23:58 To: c...@prodigy.net; John Woodgate; Untitled Subject: Re: EMI Receivers Your point being? It's an important topic. And sound advice was provided concerning EMI receivers and pre-selectors before segueing into why EMC receiver is bad terminology. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Pryor McGinnis c...@prodigy.net Reply-To: c...@prodigy.net Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:53:50 -0800 (PST) To: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, emc-p...@ieee.org, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com Subject: Re: EMI Receivers Is this not getting far afield from the original topic? --- On Fri, 11/28/08, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: EMI Receivers To: emc-p...@ieee.org Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 2:13 PM In message c55593df.324c0%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: This paragraph also shows the corrosive influence of poor terminology. In fact, getting this from Mr. Woodgate, the pre-eminent sage of this very large forum - stated with the utmost respect - in my mind confirms the very real hypothesis of one of Mr. Woodgate's compatriots, the late, great George Orwell. In 1984, Orwell develops the concept of Newspeak, a careful reconstruction of language to either eliminate undesirable concepts, or change their meanings. The idea being that if you control and change the language, you control and change how people think. The above paragraph quoted from Mr. Woodgate's post appears to validate the idea of Newspeak. Please understand that I did not write the original Minute that I quoted. And I would call it 'Minute-speak' rather than 'Newspeak'. Apart from some new words, at least one of which, 'thoughtcrime', was not in any way original in concept, having been invented by some religious zealots around 500 years previously, Newspeak is mainly about imposing an ugly pseudo-mathematical logic on grammar, such as 'double-plus ungood' for 'extremely bad', and this aspect of it really has little literary merit, in my opinion. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail
RE: EMI Receivers
-Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of michael.na...@emerson.com Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 1:05 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: EMI Receivers An instrument, IMHO, should not primarily named by its application. In this case, I would call it a test receiver, not an EMI receiver (not good) or EMC receiver (even worse). The same test receiver can be used to measure EMI, but also to measure properties of an RF transmitter. The German term 'Meßempfänger', which means literally measuring receiver coins this quite nicely. Best regards, Michael Nagel But Mike, when receiving, you may be simply monitoring without testing. g BTW, I agree with you in general, but the use of German technical terms has it's own problems, most notably the limitation of the number of characters on a line of text. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (FAX) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMI Receivers
Well, yes. Not surprising. German terminology is quite exact. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: michael.na...@emerson.com Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:04:48 - To: emc-p...@ieee.org Conversation: EMI Receivers Subject: RE: EMI Receivers There is something I do not understand about this discussion. An instrument, IMHO, should not primarily named by its application. In this case, I would call it a test receiver, not an EMI receiver (not good) or EMC receiver (even worse). The same test receiver can be used to measure EMI, but also to measure properties of an RF transmitter. The German term 'Meßempfänger', which means literally measuring receiver coins this quite nicely. Best regards, Michael Nagel Michael Nagel Senior Staff EMC Test Engineer Embedded Computing Emerson Network Power T +49-89-9608-0 F +49-89-9608-2376 michael.na...@emerson.com www.emersonnetworkpower.com/embeddedcomputing Emerson Network Power - Embedded Computing GmbH, Lilienthalstr. 15, D-85579 Neubiberg/Landkreis München, Deutschland / Germany. Geschäftsführer Josef Wenzl, Amtsgericht München HRB 171431, VAT/USt.-ID: DE 127472241 -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Javor Sent: Freitag, 28. November 2008 23:58 To: c...@prodigy.net; John Woodgate; Untitled Subject: Re: EMI Receivers Your point being? It's an important topic. And sound advice was provided concerning EMI receivers and pre-selectors before segueing into why EMC receiver is bad terminology. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Pryor McGinnis c...@prodigy.net Reply-To: c...@prodigy.net Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:53:50 -0800 (PST) To: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, emc-p...@ieee.org, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com Subject: Re: EMI Receivers Is this not getting far afield from the original topic? --- On Fri, 11/28/08, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: EMI Receivers To: emc-p...@ieee.org Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 2:13 PM In message c55593df.324c0%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: This paragraph also shows the corrosive influence of poor terminology. In fact, getting this from Mr. Woodgate, the pre-eminent sage of this very large forum - stated with the utmost respect - in my mind confirms the very real hypothesis of one of Mr. Woodgate's compatriots, the late, great George Orwell. In 1984, Orwell develops the concept of Newspeak, a careful reconstruction of language to either eliminate undesirable concepts, or change their meanings. The idea being that if you control and change the language, you control and change how people think. The above paragraph quoted from Mr. Woodgate's post appears to validate the idea of Newspeak. Please understand that I did not write the original Minute that I quoted. And I would call it 'Minute-speak' rather than 'Newspeak'. Apart from some new words, at least one of which, 'thoughtcrime', was not in any way original in concept, having been invented by some religious zealots around 500 years previously, Newspeak is mainly about imposing an ugly pseudo-mathematical logic on grammar, such as 'double-plus ungood' for 'extremely bad', and this aspect of it really has little literary merit, in my opinion. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http
RE: EMI Receivers - Now Terminology
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Javor Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 8:08 AM To: Untitled Subject: Re: EMI Receivers With this sloppy terminology, rife in the commercial world, we are raising a generation of EMC engineers who have no clue why they do what they do, other than they have to meet some legal requirement before marketing a product. It is bad enough that I have seen in this forum otherwise well-regarded engineers claiming that radiated emission requirements are there to protect all electronics from interference, as opposed to radio receivers, which are the sole victim protected by radiated emission limits. Non-antenna-connected electronics don’t require that level of protection. Happy Holidays! Ken Javor While Ken raises valid points, I think he is still defining interference too restrictively. While many official limitations on radiated emissions have been set to provide protection for receiving systems, this has only been the historical precedent. There is no reason why a radiated emission limit cannot also be used to protect non-receivers. Actually, non-receivers is a bad term, because everything is a receiver. I have seen many examples of non-receivers (things like A to D converters or servo systems) which, either by poor design or construction, make fairly good receivers. It can certainly be argued that undesired responses to external energy should be controlled by immunity requirements. Most of the time, that's true. But COMPATIBILITY is a balance between control of emissions and ensurance of immunity. You may go to extremes in both directions, or you can seek a balance (typically defined by cost, weight, size, politics). And that's why radiated emission limits can protect things other than intentional receivers. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com blocked::mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (FAX) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMI Receivers - Now Terminology
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Javor Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 8:08 AM To: Untitled Subject: Re: EMI Receivers Second, please folks, there is no such thing as an EMC receiver. It may seem like semantics, but you can’t receive electromagnetic compatibility. May be you can ask Santa for it, but I doubt he will deliver. True; it's the Easter Bunny that delivers! What you receive is EMI – electromagnetic interference, and the entire purpose of the receiver is to quantify the amount of EMI, and compare it to a limit. The limit is there to control the amount of EMI generated so that we can expect some level of electromagnetic compatibility. Ken Javor Again, I have to disagree just a bit. What you receive on your spectrum analyzer (or EMI Receiver or whatever) is not EMI; it's just some energy at some point in the spectrum. That energy can only be considered interference if the undesired response of some equipment is considered. Otherwise, that energy is not hostile EMI, it's just there. Your signal is my noise, and my signal is your noise. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com blocked::mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (FAX) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMI Receivers
In message 384ddcf824e208478e2aba72f5fbeb4cefa...@etsmsg-lonexm01.etsmsg.org, dated Mon, 1 Dec 2008, michael.na...@emerson.com writes: An instrument, IMHO, should not primarily named by its application. In this case, I would call it a test receiver, not an EMI receiver (not good) or EMC receiver (even worse). It's also known as a 'CISPR receiver', but I've never been able to pick up any programmes from CISPR on one. I expect they'd be deadly dull anyway.(;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMI Receivers - Now Terminology
Ed and I are on the same page about 95% of the time, and that is a conservative estimate. But this time he is wrong. Not in the fundamental concepts, but as they apply to the control of RE and RI. Certainly every electronic device can be both an emitter (culprit) and receiver (victim). That concept is valid. And if uncontrolled unintentional emitters could emit at levels that cause susceptibility in other victims, then Ed’s post would be exactly correct. Bu that does not, and cannot happen. The question comes down to numbers: at what levels do unintentional emitters emit, and at what level are unintentional victims susceptible? Unintentional is key here, as we shall see shortly. The intentional receiver of rf energy is a radio receiver. A good quality radio has a 20 dB noise figure. Of course you can do better than that, but 20 dB is very good. If you specify sensitivity with a 10 dB s/n ratio, you are looking at a signal of –104 to –94 dBm into 50 Ohms, assuming a receiver bandwidth between 10 – 100 kHz. As an rf potential, you are looking at 3 – 13 dBuV. Or perhaps more instructively, 0.04 - 0.125 pW. The A/D, or servo system device, or intercom, or medical device, you name it, is looking for millivolts or at least 100s of microvolts, and it is looking for those values typically in a spectrum well below the broadcast bands, and certainly below the range over which radiated emissions are controlled. So to say that we control radiated emissions to protect non-antenna-connected victims operating at signal levels orders of magnitude higher than the radios which are the reason for RE control, and which operate below the BCB spectrum, is too much of a stretch. On the flip side, the argument that we control radiated emissions to protect anything besides radio BCB reception also falls flat when you look at how much unintentionally radiates. If the signal integrity work on a piece of electronics has been done properly (i.e., the thing works), the common mode noise which is the source of radiation from the equipment and its connected cables is well under one Volt in the time domain, and some minute fraction of a Volt in any frequency domain bucket or bandwidth. If you apply a huge signal level, say 10 mV, to the terminals of a biconical antenna, a device that was designed to radiate, then the field you get at one meter is somewhere between 2 and 7 mV/m, depending on specific frequency. Nothing besides an antenna-connected radio can respond to that. If you don’t have a feel for the numbers, apply the conversion factors of MIL-STD-461 CS114 and/or IEC 61000-4-6 to get a feel for the resultant applied stress on the test sample-connected cable. For CS114, you are looking at 1.5 mA per V/m in the broadcast bands. So that corresponds to inducing 3 – 11 uA injected on test sample-connected cables. For 61000-4-6 you are looking at 1 Volt per Volt/meter. So you would inject (from a 150 Ohm source impedance) an open circuit value of 2 – 7 mV. Again, injecting these out-of-band common mode signals into non-antenna-connected-electronics is a waste of time. The clear and undeniable truth is that radiated emission limits are necessary to protect BCB radio reception, and only that. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 06:18:32 -0800 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Conversation: EMI Receivers - Now Terminology Subject: RE: EMI Receivers - Now Terminology From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Javor Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 8:08 AM To: Untitled Subject: Re: EMI Receivers With this sloppy terminology, rife in the commercial world, we are raising a generation of EMC engineers who have no clue why they do what they do, other than they have to meet some legal requirement before marketing a product. It is bad enough that I have seen in this forum otherwise well-regarded engineers claiming that radiated emission requirements are there to protect all electronics from interference, as opposed to radio receivers, which are the sole victim protected by radiated emission limits. Non-antenna-connected electronics don’t require that level of protection. Happy Holidays! Ken Javor While Ken raises valid points, I think he is still defining interference too restrictively. While many official limitations on radiated emissions have been set to provide protection for receiving systems, this has only been the historical precedent. There is no reason why a radiated emission limit cannot also be used to protect non-receivers. Actually, non-receivers is a bad term, because
[Bulk] Re: EMI Receivers - Now Terminology
In message c5598078.328cf%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Mon, 1 Dec 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: The clear and undeniable truth is that radiated emission limits are necessary to protect BCB radio reception, and only that. This question is being studied by CENELEC. Let's see what they conclude. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMI Receivers
Many posts have addressed the calibration part of this question, but not the make and model part. We have an aging HP rack that we are considering relegating to spare status by purchasing a new or nearly new spectrum analyzer or EMC receiver (I think the line there is blurring a bit these days but we want/need a preselector if that affects the semantics at all). I don’t think we need 18GHz for our applications, so if you have a favourite that tops out at a lower frequency please include it. I don’t want to hijack Tim’s originally 18GHz enquiry though. Thanks, Jim Eichner, P.Eng. Compliance Engineering Manager Xantrex Technology Inc. e-mail: jim.eich...@xantrex.com web: www.xantrex.com http://www.xantrex.com/ Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of emcp...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:39 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: EMI Receivers Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com http://p .atwola.com/promoclk/10075x12129629 9x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.c m/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMI Receivers
A couple issues. First, on topic, beware of modern-day “pre-selectors.” You will find either quite broad tracking filters, and/or a series of very broad fixed bandpass filters selected by coaxial relays. To my knowledge there is not a single manufacturer today making a pre-selector with bandwidth with say ten times the required resolution or 6 dB bandwidth. If someone out there can contradict me on this, please do, with manufacturer and model number, please!!! Second, please folks, there is no such thing as an EMC receiver. It may seem like semantics, but you can’t receive electromagnetic compatibility. May be you can ask Santa for it, but I doubt he will deliver. What you receive is EMI – electromagnetic interference, and the entire purpose of the receiver is to quantify the amount of EMI, and compare it to a limit. The limit is there to control the amount of EMI generated so that we can expect some level of electromagnetic compatibility. For instance, we control RE at three meters so that at typical BCB reception levels, we have clear reception. That is EMC. If we move the culprit emitter closer to the radio receiver than three meters we no longer have a legitimate expectation of clear reception. With this sloppy terminology, rife in the commercial world, we are raising a generation of EMC engineers who have no clue why they do what they do, other than they have to meet some legal requirement before marketing a product. It is bad enough that I have seen in this forum otherwise well-regarded engineers claiming that radiated emission requirements are there to protect all electronics from interference, as opposed to radio receivers, which are the sole victim protected by radiated emission limits. Non-antenna-connected electronics don’t require that level of protection. Oh, yeah, one other thing. The holiday season has officially begun. Happy Holidays! Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Jim Eichner jim.eich...@xantrex.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 00:50:18 -0800 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Conversation: EMI Receivers Subject: RE: EMI Receivers Many posts have addressed the calibration part of this question, but not the make and model part. We have an aging HP rack that we are considering relegating to spare status by purchasing a new or nearly new spectrum analyzer or EMC receiver (I think the line there is blurring a bit these days but we want/need a preselector if that affects the semantics at all). I don’t think we need 18GHz for our applications, so if you have a favourite that tops out at a lower frequency please include it. I don’t want to hijack Tim’s originally 18GHz enquiry though. Thanks, Jim Eichner, P.Eng. Compliance Engineering Manager Xantrex Technology Inc. e-mail: jim.eich...@xantrex.com web: www.xantrex.com http://www.xantrex.com/ http://www.xantrex.com/ Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of emcp...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:39 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: EMI Receivers Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com http://p .atwola.com/promoclk/10075x12129629 9x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.c m/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom0001 http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1007 x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http:/ www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org
Re: EMI Receivers
In message c5557365.32493%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: For instance, we control RE at three meters so that at typical BCB reception levels, we have clear reception. That is EMC. If we move the culprit emitter closer to the radio receiver than three meters we no longer have a legitimate expectation of clear reception. Agreed: the effect of this distance factor is almost entirely not mentioned in EMC standards. With this sloppy terminology, rife in the commercial world, we are raising a generation of EMC engineers who have no clue why they do what they do, other than they have to meet some legal requirement before marketing a product. Similarly with safety. It is bad enough that I have seen in this forum otherwise well-regarded engineers claiming that radiated emission requirements are there to protect all electronics from interference, as opposed to radio receivers, which are the sole victim protected by radiated emission limits. That's not entirely true. IEC SC77C deals with immunity of the electrical infrastructure to high-energy phenomena, and one could consider the work on protection against lighting also to be EMC work. In addition, CENELEC has just started to look at the subject. A recent committee Minute reads: The committee considered the wording of a questionnaire to National Committees on the adequacy of current EMC standards for the protection of non-radio communication services [yes, that's ambiguous, but I think it means 'services other than radio communication services'], and agreed the content in principle. The committee has asked its Working Group to prepare the final wording, prior to circulation. Non-antenna-connected electronics don?t require that level of protection. That is generally true, but some medical equipment and scientific instruments are exceptions. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[Bulk] Re: EMI Receivers
Re this: That's not entirely true. IEC SC77C deals with immunity of the electrical infrastructure to high-energy phenomena, and one could consider the work on protection against lighting also to be EMC work. I assume that in the above quoted paragraph, Mr. Woodgate mean lightning and not lighting. If so, then the above paragraph is a perfect, albeit very unexpected, confirmation of my earlier post that people confuse EMI and EMC with deleterious consequences. We control radiated (and conducted) EMI from man-made items so as to protect radio broadcast reception. We protect critical systems from the effects of direct lightning attachments and/or the indirect effects of a nearby lightning event. While both EMI control and lightning protection can be considered to fall under the broad umbrella of the term EMC, only protection of radio broadcast reception is termed EMI control. Re this: The committee considered the wording of a questionnaire to National Committees on the adequacy of current EMC standards for the protection of non-radio communication services [yes, that's ambiguous, but I think it means 'services other than radio communication services'], and agreed the content in principle. The committee has asked its Working Group to prepare the final wording, prior to circulation. This paragraph also shows the corrosive influence of poor terminology. In fact, getting this from Mr. Woodgate, the pre-eminent sage of this very large forum - stated with the utmost respect - in my mind confirms the very real hypothesis of one of Mr. Woodgate's compatriots, the late, great George Orwell. In 1984, Orwell develops the concept of Newspeak, a careful reconstruction of language to either eliminate undesirable concepts, or change their meanings. The idea being that if you control and change the language, you control and change how people think. The above paragraph quoted from Mr. Woodgate's post appears to validate the idea of Newspeak. There are numerous requirements falling under the rubric of the EMC Directive that control all sorts of effects. As just one example, 61000-4-3 and 61000-4-6 together protect non=radio communication services (whatever that means) as well as all sorts of non-radio or non-antenna-connected electronic equipment. But these requirements don't protect against unintentional RE CE; they protect against intentionally broadcast radio frequency energy. Big difference. On the order of 100 dB. And that is exactly the point. Only antenna-connected equipment receiving signals on the level of picowatts can respond to and be interfered with by the levels of EMI mandated by EN 55022. If you had a sensitive radio with a -110 dBm noise floor, but you could guarantee that it would always be used within 10 km of the 10 kW ERP radio station with a direct line-of-sight, you wouldn't need EN55022 protection. The medical and scientific equipment cited in the last paragraph of Mr. Woodgate's post can indeed be quite sensitive. But it won't respond to EN55022 levels unless it is indeed operating as a radio receiver. Medical equipment may be sensing very low level potentials and currents, but it is typically a time domain measurement whose spectral content is at very low frequencies (EKG, EEG, etc.). We do not control RE and CE to protect medical equipment. We instead impose requirements like 61000-4-3 and 61000-4-6 to force the design of the medical equipment to be compatible with the expected EME (electromagnetic environment). And to some extent of course, we attempt to control the use of intentional transmitters in immediate proximity to such devices. But the idea that we must control RE to the levels of EN55022 to protect medical (or other) equipment while simultaneously imposing immunity requirements on the order of 1 V/m or above is a total non-starter, and this very contradiction is the motivation for my original comment about careful use of the EMI/EMC terminology. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:53:53 + To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: EMI Receivers In message c5557365.32493%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: For instance, we control RE at three meters so that at typical BCB reception levels, we have clear reception. That is EMC. If we move the culprit emitter closer to the radio receiver than three meters we no longer have a legitimate expectation of clear reception. Agreed: the effect of this distance factor is almost entirely not mentioned in EMC standards. With this sloppy terminology, rife in the commercial world, we are raising a generation of EMC engineers who have no clue why they do what they do, other than they have to meet some legal requirement before marketing a product. Similarly with safety. It is bad enough that I have seen in this forum otherwise well-regarded engineers claiming that radiated
Re: EMI Receivers
In message c55593df.324c0%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: This paragraph also shows the corrosive influence of poor terminology. In fact, getting this from Mr. Woodgate, the pre-eminent sage of this very large forum - stated with the utmost respect - in my mind confirms the very real hypothesis of one of Mr. Woodgate's compatriots, the late, great George Orwell. In 1984, Orwell develops the concept of Newspeak, a careful reconstruction of language to either eliminate undesirable concepts, or change their meanings. The idea being that if you control and change the language, you control and change how people think. The above paragraph quoted from Mr. Woodgate's post appears to validate the idea of Newspeak. Please understand that I did not write the original Minute that I quoted. And I would call it 'Minute-speak' rather than 'Newspeak'. Apart from some new words, at least one of which, 'thoughtcrime', was not in any way original in concept, having been invented by some religious zealots around 500 years previously, Newspeak is mainly about imposing an ugly pseudo-mathematical logic on grammar, such as 'double-plus ungood' for 'extremely bad', and this aspect of it really has little literary merit, in my opinion. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[Bulk] Re: EMI Receivers
Is this not getting far afield from the original topic? --- On Fri, 11/28/08, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: EMI Receivers To: emc-p...@ieee.org Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 2:13 PM In message c55593df.324c0%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: This paragraph also shows the corrosive influence of poor terminology. In fact, getting this from Mr. Woodgate, the pre-eminent sage of this very large forum - stated with the utmost respect - in my mind confirms the very real hypothesis of one of Mr. Woodgate's compatriots, the late, great George Orwell. In 1984, Orwell develops the concept of Newspeak, a careful reconstruction of language to either eliminate undesirable concepts, or change their meanings. The idea being that if you control and change the language, you control and change how people think. The above paragraph quoted from Mr. Woodgate's post appears to validate the idea of Newspeak. Please understand that I did not write the original Minute that I quoted. And I would call it 'Minute-speak' rather than 'Newspeak'. Apart from some new words, at least one of which, 'thoughtcrime', was not in any way original in concept, having been invented by some religious zealots around 500 years previously, Newspeak is mainly about imposing an ugly pseudo-mathematical logic on grammar, such as 'double-plus ungood' for 'extremely bad', and this aspect of it really has little literary merit, in my opinion. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[Bulk] Re: EMI Receivers
Your point being? It's an important topic. And sound advice was provided concerning EMI receivers and pre-selectors before segueing into why EMC receiver is bad terminology. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Pryor McGinnis c...@prodigy.net Reply-To: c...@prodigy.net Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:53:50 -0800 (PST) To: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, emc-p...@ieee.org, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com Subject: Re: EMI Receivers Is this not getting far afield from the original topic? --- On Fri, 11/28/08, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: EMI Receivers To: emc-p...@ieee.org Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 2:13 PM In message c55593df.324c0%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: This paragraph also shows the corrosive influence of poor terminology. In fact, getting this from Mr. Woodgate, the pre-eminent sage of this very large forum - stated with the utmost respect - in my mind confirms the very real hypothesis of one of Mr. Woodgate's compatriots, the late, great George Orwell. In 1984, Orwell develops the concept of Newspeak, a careful reconstruction of language to either eliminate undesirable concepts, or change their meanings. The idea being that if you control and change the language, you control and change how people think. The above paragraph quoted from Mr. Woodgate's post appears to validate the idea of Newspeak. Please understand that I did not write the original Minute that I quoted. And I would call it 'Minute-speak' rather than 'Newspeak'. Apart from some new words, at least one of which, 'thoughtcrime', was not in any way original in concept, having been invented by some religious zealots around 500 years previously, Newspeak is mainly about imposing an ugly pseudo-mathematical logic on grammar, such as 'double-plus ungood' for 'extremely bad', and this aspect of it really has little literary merit, in my opinion. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMI Receivers
Tim, Many members answered your questions. Regarding calibration, I attach RS response from the sales manager, who sold me an ESU40 early this year, for your reference. In spite of what you may have read or heard, the ESU40 is calibrated in our Columbia Maryland facility unless you require an Accredited Calibration. The typical turn around time for a calibration is 5-10 business days but can be expedited if you wish to a maximum of 5 days for a $350 charge. I would love to help you out with a loaner if one is available, however, since this is a scheduled service maybe you can schedule the calibration for a time when the instrument will not be used. Also, I would rather use the loaner for a time when there could be an instrument failure and you need to complete some testing. If a loaner is absolutely necessary I will look into it! Best regards, Grace On 11/20/08, emcp...@aol.com emcp...@aol.com wrote: Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com h tp://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1 12962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://ww .aol.com/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT;emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@ptcnh.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: EMI Receivers
Tim, RS receivers do not have to go back to the manufacturer. We have our receivers calibrated on site by a UK calibration lab. Luke Turnbull emcp...@aol.com 20 November 2008 19:39 Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com http://p .atwola.com/promoclk/10075x12129629 9x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.c m/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com Conekt is a trading division of TRW Limited Registered in England, No. 872948 Registered Office Address: Stratford Road, Solihull B90 4AX - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMI Receivers
Hi All, I had some equipment calibrated by a.n.other accredited calibration house - chosen by the management because it was cheaper. Things were fine for a couple of years -then the problems started. The manufacturers would have calibrated each module within the equipment to ensure that it was working correctly at any and all frequencies in the range.. The a.n.other calibration house adjusted any module to bring the equipment into spec at their accredited test frequencies. At some frequencies the local oscillator would go unstable and spread over 100kHz of spectrum at low frequencies - and many MHz at high frequencies. Remember that the maker probably has the necessary jigs and custom test equipment, while the generic cal house probably does not. The maker probably charges a lot of money for the calibration - while the generic is cheaper. I only go to the manufacturer now, where high tech equipment is involved. The generic cal-house gets the attenuators, cables current probes etc. I hope that this helps. Regards Tim Tim Haynes A1N10 Electromagnetic Engineering Specialist SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems 300 Capability Green Luton LU1 3PG ( Tel : +44 (0)1582 886239 7 Fax : +44 (0)1582 795863 ) Mob: +44 (0)7703 559 310 * E-mail : tim.hay...@selexgalileo.com P Please consider the environment before printing this email. There are 10 types of people in the world-those who understand binary and those who don't. J. Paxman From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Luke Turnbull Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 11:01 AM To: emcp...@aol.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: EMI Receivers *** WARNING *** This mail has originated outside your organization, either from an external partner or the Global Internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Tim, RS receivers do not have to go back to the manufacturer. We have our receivers calibrated on site by a UK calibration lab. Luke Turnbull emcp...@aol.com 20 November 2008 19:39 Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com http://p .atwola.com/promoclk/10075x12129629 9x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.c m/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com Conekt is a trading division of TRW Limited Registered in England, No. 872948 Registered Office Address: Stratford Road, Solihull B90 4AX - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 3EL A company registered in England Wales. Company no. 02426132 This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose
RE: EMI Receivers
Tim, In the US, RS calibrations are not accredited to ISO 17025. The reasons are probably financial – they haven’t wanted to spend the $ to attain accreditation. We send our RS receivers out for cal to a well-known accredited cal lab in the US, but we have had an instance of damage by the shipping agent. Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 – phone 858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of emcp...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:39 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: EMI Receivers Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com http://p .atwola.com/promoclk/10075x12129629 9x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.c m/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMI Receivers
Hi, Tim. In the United States, I send my EMC Test Lab's RS ESIB40 (40 GHz EMI Receiver) to World Cal in Elk Horn, Iowa. World Cal's A2LA scope encompasses that equipment. Cheers Conan Boyle From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Luke Turnbull Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 3:01 AM To: emcp...@aol.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: EMI Receivers Tim, RS receivers do not have to go back to the manufacturer. We have our receivers calibrated on site by a UK calibration lab. Luke Turnbull emcp...@aol.com 20 November 2008 19:39 Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com http://p .atwola.com/promoclk/10075x12129629 9x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.c m/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com Conekt is a trading division of TRW Limited Registered in England, No. 872948 Registered Office Address: Stratford Road, Solihull B90 4AX - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - - Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this transmission is legally privileged and confidential, intended only for the use of the individual(s) or entities named above. This email and any files transmitted with it are the property of Pelco. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, disclosure, copying, distribution, retention, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone call to +1-559-292-1981 or forward the e-mail to administra...@pelco.com and then permanently delete the e-mail and destroy all soft and hard copies of the message and any attachments. Thank you for your cooperation. - - - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMI Receivers
Tim, I second Jim's caution about shipping of EMI Receivers. Make sure you buy the hard transit cases to ship receivers, or better yet, rent or take a van/truck and bring it to the lab yourself. Larry Stillings From: emcp...@aol.com [mailto:emcp...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:39 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: EMI Receivers Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com http://p .atwola.com/promoclk/10075x12129629 9x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.c m/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: EMI Receivers
How about using a mobile calibration lab? No shipping damage. 1 day turnaround. A calibration lab I know and trust ranks higher in my book than a lab with a laundry list of accreditations but acts like you are at their mercy. I need more from a calibration lab than a sticker on the front. Years ago I sent my receiver to the manufacturer for Calibration and paid extra money to get onto their “Head of the Line” list. Four weeks and 12 phone calls later, it finally made it to the bench where the technician said there was something wrong with my receiver and it had to be sent to the Repair lab which was at a different location. Four more weeks later, the repair technician called me and said he couldn’t find anything wrong with the receiver, but, their repair lab was not accredited to do calibrations, s, it had to be shipped back to the Calibration lab where this time it was calibrated and shipped back to me with no explanation. Our total down time was 10 weeks. I wonder how long it would have taken if I didn’t pay the extra money to be at the Head of the Line? Oh, my receiver also came back all beat up. The paint on the sides was all worn off from shipping wear. So, that was the last time I sent my receiver to the manufacturer for calibration. Just one of many many calibration horror stories. I currently have a great relationship with my calibration lab. I’m on a first name bases which I would not have it any other way. Your calibration lab has to be someone you trust is doing it right and will be able to properly repair it if necessary. Any time I look to buy a new piece of test equipment, I contact my Calibration Lab (who also does repair on most manufacturers’ equipment) and get their recommendation on make and model. They see what brands and models of equipment have high fallout in function and calibration. The other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 12:46 PM To: emcp...@aol.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: EMI Receivers Tim, In the US, RS calibrations are not accredited to ISO 17025. The reasons are probably financial – they haven’t wanted to spend the $ to attain accreditation. We send our RS receivers out for cal to a well-known accredited cal lab in the US, but we have had an instance of damage by the shipping agent. Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 – phone 858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of emcp...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:39 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: EMI Receivers Hello, I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. I'm looking for a unit that can be calibrated by a local accredited calibration lab. I believe all RS receivers need to be sent to them for calibration, which there would be risk and time involved in shipping. Thanks, Tim Pierce One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com http://p .atwola.com/promoclk/10075x12129629 9x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.c m/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom0001 today! _ LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website
Re: EMI Receivers
In message d4e.3f85a8f3.36571...@aol.com, dated Thu, 20 Nov 2008, emcp...@aol.com writes: I'm looking to purchase an EMI receiver for use in a 5 meter chamber. Does anyone recommend a certain model? I would want one that has at least a frequency range from 150kHz to 18GHz so one unit can be used for radiated and conducted emission measurements. If you had two, with overlapping ranges, you wouldn't be entirely scuppered when one of them fails or has to go away for calibration. There is likely to be a lot of 'nearly-new' about at good prices, due to the present unfortunate situation. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
