Re: stun guns on aircraft
I don't feel embarassed. As a matter of fact, I feel proud that the US has found a medium between suppression and freedom of expression. How come every one in the world looks to the US for leadership in conflicts? Probably because the ROW(rest of world) has never figured it out. Jim Freeman Robert Wilson wrote: Free men own guns. Yeah right. The true mark of a civilized country is that its citizens all own guns. Never been anywhere else, have you? It is just this sort if immature 19th century frontier mentality that is embarrassing the US in the eyes of the rest of the world. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: May 6, 2002 4:24 PM To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place to have gun fights too many lives are at risk the first priority is to get the plane safely on the ground, anywhere then at least the passengers have a chance Most citizens of most countries enjoy the security that comes from having thrashed out land rights, territorial disputes, and the systems of law and law enforcement before firearms were invented. America is one of the few places in the West that relies on firearms as a negotiating tool. This is poor judgement. Firearms are offensive weapons not negotiating tools. Giving someone a gun escalates an already dangerous situation. Now you want the pilot to not only assure the safety of the plane but also be an effective executioner. Asking too much IMHO. Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send
Let's change the topic to something more descriptive Re: stun guns on aircraft
Folks- For those of us who care to know the real info about the original topic - stun guns and the RF problems they cause on aircraft, how about changing your subject line. Let's have everyone who wants to give their opinions about who should and shouldn't own guns and what the real problem is with society change the subject line to something more reflective of the topic at hand. How about: Guns - Pro or Con? It certainly would make reading though and filtering out the information we want to see easier. Penny - Forwarded by Penny D. Robbins/Telcordia on 05/07/02 01:20 PM - Robert Wilson robert_wilson@tTo: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org irsys.com cc: (bcc: Penny D. Robbins/Telcordia) Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft 05/07/02 12:41 PM Please respond to Robert Wilson Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC?? I suppose this explains why the US has a murder rate some 10 to 20 times that of western Europe, and whose extreme violent crime rates make it a pariah in the eyes of so many other nations? And where do you think the criminal approaching your wife with a gun managed to get a gun in the first place? Could it be because he lives in a country that believes owning a gun should be a citizen's right? Nah! Couldn't possibly be a connection! Reminds me of a cartoon I once saw, where Uncle Sam is pointing a gun at himself and has just managed to shoot another hole through his head. The caption is Damn! It did it again! I wonder what causes that? Ah, well, what else can one expect from yet another proud member of the NRA. Certainly not rational thinking when it comes to playing with toys that go bang. I'll get off my soap box now. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Sam Davis [mailto:sda...@ptitest.com] Sent: May 7, 2002 6:51 AM To: Gert Gremmen; Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft This has nothing to do with EMC or Product safety, but with personal and public safety. I'm with Ghery. Gert, your misrepresentation of his statement is ludicrous. Statistics bear this out. Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC. Look at Australia. The gov't took the gun ownership rights away, and violent crime rose horribly. Guns are not only offensive weapons, but defensive weapons as well. If some criminal approaches your wife with a gun, would you prefer her to have a pistol, or a whistle? What do you want your cops to defend your streets with? What about your military, to guard your ability to go to work, make a living, support your family, without having to worry if you'll be a captive prisoner of war, or worse? What about the security force at your airport? Guns even the playing field. When you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in, and can no longer defend their homes with the NECESSARY force. Fortunately, I live in a locale where gun ownership is not only allowed, but almost expected. Statistically, there are more guns than people per household. There is also a very low rate of home invasion. Since concealed carry permits have been issued, all violent crimes have dropped. Hijackers take planes because law-abiding travelers are not packing heat. I own multiple guns, legally, and I pray I never have to fire them in self defense, but I pray I don't have to use my ADD policy either. BTW, Ted, your statement Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change, I disagree with your first syllable. The reason we're the prime superpower is because the world knows we will use it if we have to. The reason our allies like us is because we've got their back
Re: stun guns on aircraft
Peter: Let me answer your questions and then I have a question for you. FLOWERDEW, Peter wrote: I am reading this thread in the UK. I am a trained marksman, trained by our police, but I can not believe what I am reading. How many murders per day in New York? Unless you count the murders at the World Trade center where there were no guns involved, about 200 per year. How does that compare with London? How many in any European capital? How many school massacres in USA? Per capita about as many as Germany. How many in Europe? In Europe the police carry guns, not the next guy who is going to object to my driving. My question for Peter is since Europe has had many extermination camps in the last century, who at the extermination camps had guns and who did not? Lots of guns in America but no extermination camps. Do think there might be a connection? Fred Townsend I also happen to be a karate instructor, a professional doorman (bouncer) and I train nurses and counsellors, working with addicts and alcoholics off the streets, in low-arousal defence techniques and situation de-escalation - as well as being an FIEE emc engineer. I get scared in Houston at night (that's where an English engineer got lost, knocked on the door of a house to ask directions and was shot dead through the door - anyone want to talk to his wife?), but in four years I have never faced a gun on the nightclub doors in Bristol. Also, our gun enthusiasts do not own handguns, combat rifles or pump-action shotguns - they still have fun. I will not be the only UK professional reading this thread and from the reactions in my company, which is American owned, the ease with which people are willing to deprive another human of their life is shocking. All that said, I do not see what the topic has to do with meeting health and safety regulations. Which standard are you referring to? Peter -Original Message- From: Sam Davis [mailto:sda...@ptitest.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 2:51 PM To: Gert Gremmen; Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft This has nothing to do with EMC or Product safety, but with personal and public safety. I'm with Ghery. Gert, your misrepresentation of his statement is ludicrous. Statistics bear this out. Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC. Look at Australia. The gov't took the gun ownership rights away, and violent crime rose horribly. Guns are not only offensive weapons, but defensive weapons as well. If some criminal approaches your wife with a gun, would you prefer her to have a pistol, or a whistle? What do you want your cops to defend your streets with? What about your military, to guard your ability to go to work, make a living, support your family, without having to worry if you'll be a captive prisoner of war, or worse? What about the security force at your airport? Guns even the playing field. When you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in, and can no longer defend their homes with the NECESSARY force. Fortunately, I live in a locale where gun ownership is not only allowed, but almost expected. Statistically, there are more guns than people per household. There is also a very low rate of home invasion. Since concealed carry permits have been issued, all violent crimes have dropped. Hijackers take planes because law-abiding travelers are not packing heat. I own multiple guns, legally, and I pray I never have to fire them in self defense, but I pray I don't have to use my ADD policy either. BTW, Ted, your statement Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change, I disagree with your first syllable. The reason we're the prime superpower is because the world knows we will use it if we have to. The reason our allies like us is because we've got their back, (and we've thrown billions of dollars to bail them out without actually expecting payback, but that's a completely different thread). Remember grade school, who got picked on? The kid that couldn't (or wouldn't) defend himself. The guys that were obviously able to return injury never had to fight. Think about that. If any of my statements offend you because of your national pride, I'm sorry. My national pride is what brought me in here. I mean no offense to your nation, just your government's anti-gun laws. My opinions are my own, but I know my boss will back me. He's a member, too. Proud member of the National Rifle Association, standing with my brothers, supporting our constitutional right to protect ourselves until the cops are able to arrive. Sam -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gert Gremmen Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:25 AM To: Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject
RE: stun guns on aircraft
Making an analogy with the EMC world, it is interesting how America, which allows its citizens to bear firearms (for self-protection, of course), does not enforce regulations on immunity. As for Sam's reflections The reason we're the prime superpower is because the world knows we will use it [the force] if we have to. The reason our allies like us is because we've got their back, (and we've thrown billions of dollars to bail them out without actually expecting payback ..., I hope the author realizes the enormity of these words, especially within our forum. Alexandru G. -Original Message- From: Sam Davis [mailto:sda...@ptitest.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 9:51 AM To: Gert Gremmen; Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft This has nothing to do with EMC or Product safety, but with personal and public safety. I'm with Ghery. Gert, your misrepresentation of his statement is ludicrous. Statistics bear this out. Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC. Look at Australia. The gov't took the gun ownership rights away, and violent crime rose horribly. Guns are not only offensive weapons, but defensive weapons as well. If some criminal approaches your wife with a gun, would you prefer her to have a pistol, or a whistle? What do you want your cops to defend your streets with? What about your military, to guard your ability to go to work, make a living, support your family, without having to worry if you'll be a captive prisoner of war, or worse? What about the security force at your airport? Guns even the playing field. When you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in, and can no longer defend their homes with the NECESSARY force. Fortunately, I live in a locale where gun ownership is not only allowed, but almost expected. Statistically, there are more guns than people per household. There is also a very low rate of home invasion. Since concealed carry permits have been issued, all violent crimes have dropped. Hijackers take planes because law-abiding travelers are not packing heat. I own multiple guns, legally, and I pray I never have to fire them in self defense, but I pray I don't have to use my ADD policy either. BTW, Ted, your statement Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change, I disagree with your first syllable. The reason we're the prime superpower is because the world knows we will use it if we have to. The reason our allies like us is because we've got their back, (and we've thrown billions of dollars to bail them out without actually expecting payback, but that's a completely different thread). Remember grade school, who got picked on? The kid that couldn't (or wouldn't) defend himself. The guys that were obviously able to return injury never had to fight. Think about that. If any of my statements offend you because of your national pride, I'm sorry. My national pride is what brought me in here. I mean no offense to your nation, just your government's anti-gun laws. My opinions are my own, but I know my boss will back me. He's a member, too. Proud member of the National Rifle Association, standing with my brothers, supporting our constitutional right to protect ourselves until the cops are able to arrive. Sam -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gert Gremmen Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:25 AM To: Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft So Ghery, Please let us all know your future flight schedual, so we can avoid sharing the same plane ... As you might know, yesterday, in analogy to USA 1963 Kennedy, a Netherlands Prime Minister kandidate , Pim Fortuin, a fighter for the rights for free speaking, to the degree that he attacked laws against discrimination, was killed by a such representative of the TRUE FREE MEN . I supposed , Ghery , that your interpretation of being a FREE man is not limited to the WORD... Gert Gremmen -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Pettit, Ghery Sent: dinsdag 7 mei 2002 01:24 To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place
Re: stun guns on aircraft
Precisely correct. The thing that differentiates the US of A from the rest of the world is our political genesis of limited government and unlimited political freedom (including the right to bear arms), as opposed to the opposite elsewhere. The fact that the land was taken from the natives by force is not a differentiating factor - it is something we have in common with the rest of the world, a fact that is obvious to students of history. I shouldn't have to say it, but in the interest of limiting responses, freedom in this context does not mean the ability or right to act on any whim, but rather freedom from human tyranny. -- From: Bill Morse bill...@verifone.com To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft Date: Tue, May 7, 2002, 10:32 AM I think he meant that swords are so much better then guns. Norman, Saxon, Moor, Gael, Roman, Aztec, Mayan, Mongol, Greek, English and the French and just about every society I have read about or know seemed taken by force and is defended by force and did quit well before the advent of the gun in killing themselves and their neighbors. But would not presume to speak for him. Technical Staff Senior EMC Engineer William Morse NCE -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 4:24 PM To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place to have gun fights too many lives are at risk the first priority is to get the plane safely on the ground, anywhere then at least the passengers have a chance Most citizens of most countries enjoy the security that comes from having thrashed out land rights, territorial disputes, and the systems of law and law enforcement before firearms were invented. America is one of the few places in the West that relies on firearms as a negotiating tool. This is poor judgement. Firearms are offensive weapons not negotiating tools. Giving someone a gun escalates an already dangerous situation. Now you want the pilot to not only assure the safety of the plane but also be an effective executioner. Asking too much IMHO. Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe
RE: stun guns on aircraft
RE: stun guns on aircraftThe numbers of horrendous crimes in the US is sadly exaggerated by the press. The defensive use of weapons is sadly dismissed in the news, and reported as a killing, not as a defense against killing. I don't own my handgun for entertainment, but for protection. My bolt action rifle is too unwieldy and clumsy. I'm not easy about depriving another's life, except when mine is threatened. I'm glad you've never had to face a weapon. Even though I live in the state known for having many guns, I've never seen a gun used in a crime either. None is not better than none. It's just great. I hope that if you ever have to face a weapon that you'd be able to disarm him and restrain him until the authorities arrive. I have a black belt associate who has made the statement he'd rather face a crook that has a gun than one with a knife. The crook that uses a gun is usually too cocky, and can be disarmed fairly easily with the right moves, where a knife wielder is usually a force to be reckoned. Sam -Original Message- From: FLOWERDEW, Peter [mailto:peter.flower...@plantronics.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 11:17 AM To: 'Sam Davis'; Gert Gremmen; Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I am reading this thread in the UK. I am a trained marksman, trained by our police, but I can not believe what I am reading. How many murders per day in New York? How many in any European capital? How many school massacres in USA? How many in Europe? In Europe the police carry guns, not the next guy who is going to object to my driving. I also happen to be a karate instructor, a professional doorman (bouncer) and I train nurses and counsellors, working with addicts and alcoholics off the streets, in low-arousal defence techniques and situation de-escalation - as well as being an FIEE emc engineer. I get scared in Houston at night (that's where an English engineer got lost, knocked on the door of a house to ask directions and was shot dead through the door - anyone want to talk to his wife?), but in four years I have never faced a gun on the nightclub doors in Bristol. Also, our gun enthusiasts do not own handguns, combat rifles or pump-action shotguns - they still have fun. I will not be the only UK professional reading this thread and from the reactions in my company, which is American owned, the ease with which people are willing to deprive another human of their life is shocking. All that said, I do not see what the topic has to do with meeting health and safety regulations. Which standard are you referring to? Peter -Original Message- From: Sam Davis [mailto:sda...@ptitest.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 2:51 PM To: Gert Gremmen; Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft This has nothing to do with EMC or Product safety, but with personal and public safety. I'm with Ghery. Gert, your misrepresentation of his statement is ludicrous. Statistics bear this out. Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC. Look at Australia. The gov't took the gun ownership rights away, and violent crime rose horribly. Guns are not only offensive weapons, but defensive weapons as well. If some criminal approaches your wife with a gun, would you prefer her to have a pistol, or a whistle? What do you want your cops to defend your streets with? What about your military, to guard your ability to go to work, make a living, support your family, without having to worry if you'll be a captive prisoner of war, or worse? What about the security force at your airport? Guns even the playing field. When you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in, and can no longer defend their homes with the NECESSARY force. Fortunately, I live in a locale where gun ownership is not only allowed, but almost expected. Statistically, there are more guns than people per household. There is also a very low rate of home invasion. Since concealed carry permits have been issued, all violent crimes have dropped. Hijackers take planes because law-abiding travelers are not packing heat. I own multiple guns, legally, and I pray I never have to fire them in self defense, but I pray I don't have to use my ADD policy either. BTW, Ted, your statement Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change, I disagree with your first syllable. The reason we're the prime superpower is because the world knows we will use it if we have to. The reason our allies like us is because we've got their back, (and we've thrown billions of dollars to bail them out without actually expecting payback, but that's a completely different thread). Remember grade school, who got picked on? The kid that couldn't (or wouldn't) defend himself. The guys that were obviously able to return
RE: stun guns on aircraft
Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC?? I suppose this explains why the US has a murder rate some 10 to 20 times that of western Europe, and whose extreme violent crime rates make it a pariah in the eyes of so many other nations? And where do you think the criminal approaching your wife with a gun managed to get a gun in the first place? Could it be because he lives in a country that believes owning a gun should be a citizen's right? Nah! Couldn't possibly be a connection! Reminds me of a cartoon I once saw, where Uncle Sam is pointing a gun at himself and has just managed to shoot another hole through his head. The caption is Damn! It did it again! I wonder what causes that? Ah, well, what else can one expect from yet another proud member of the NRA. Certainly not rational thinking when it comes to playing with toys that go bang. I'll get off my soap box now. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Sam Davis [mailto:sda...@ptitest.com] Sent: May 7, 2002 6:51 AM To: Gert Gremmen; Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft This has nothing to do with EMC or Product safety, but with personal and public safety. I'm with Ghery. Gert, your misrepresentation of his statement is ludicrous. Statistics bear this out. Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC. Look at Australia. The gov't took the gun ownership rights away, and violent crime rose horribly. Guns are not only offensive weapons, but defensive weapons as well. If some criminal approaches your wife with a gun, would you prefer her to have a pistol, or a whistle? What do you want your cops to defend your streets with? What about your military, to guard your ability to go to work, make a living, support your family, without having to worry if you'll be a captive prisoner of war, or worse? What about the security force at your airport? Guns even the playing field. When you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in, and can no longer defend their homes with the NECESSARY force. Fortunately, I live in a locale where gun ownership is not only allowed, but almost expected. Statistically, there are more guns than people per household. There is also a very low rate of home invasion. Since concealed carry permits have been issued, all violent crimes have dropped. Hijackers take planes because law-abiding travelers are not packing heat. I own multiple guns, legally, and I pray I never have to fire them in self defense, but I pray I don't have to use my ADD policy either. BTW, Ted, your statement Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change, I disagree with your first syllable. The reason we're the prime superpower is because the world knows we will use it if we have to. The reason our allies like us is because we've got their back, (and we've thrown billions of dollars to bail them out without actually expecting payback, but that's a completely different thread). Remember grade school, who got picked on? The kid that couldn't (or wouldn't) defend himself. The guys that were obviously able to return injury never had to fight. Think about that. If any of my statements offend you because of your national pride, I'm sorry. My national pride is what brought me in here. I mean no offense to your nation, just your government's anti-gun laws. My opinions are my own, but I know my boss will back me. He's a member, too. Proud member of the National Rifle Association, standing with my brothers, supporting our constitutional right to protect ourselves until the cops are able to arrive. Sam -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gert Gremmen Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:25 AM To: Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft So Ghery, Please let us all know your future flight schedual, so we can avoid sharing the same plane ... As you might know, yesterday, in analogy to USA 1963 Kennedy, a Netherlands Prime Minister kandidate , Pim Fortuin, a fighter for the rights for free speaking, to the degree that he attacked laws against discrimination, was killed by a such representative of the TRUE FREE MEN . I supposed , Ghery , that your interpretation of being a FREE man is not limited to the WORD... Gert Gremmen -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Pettit, Ghery Sent: dinsdag 7 mei 2002 01:24 To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps
RE: stun guns on aircraft
I am reading this thread in the UK. I am a trained marksman, trained by our police, but I can not believe what I am reading. How many murders per day in New York? How many in any European capital? How many school massacres in USA? How many in Europe? In Europe the police carry guns, not the next guy who is going to object to my driving. I also happen to be a karate instructor, a professional doorman (bouncer) and I train nurses and counsellors, working with addicts and alcoholics off the streets, in low-arousal defence techniques and situation de-escalation - as well as being an FIEE emc engineer. I get scared in Houston at night (that's where an English engineer got lost, knocked on the door of a house to ask directions and was shot dead through the door - anyone want to talk to his wife?), but in four years I have never faced a gun on the nightclub doors in Bristol. Also, our gun enthusiasts do not own handguns, combat rifles or pump-action shotguns - they still have fun. I will not be the only UK professional reading this thread and from the reactions in my company, which is American owned, the ease with which people are willing to deprive another human of their life is shocking. All that said, I do not see what the topic has to do with meeting health and safety regulations. Which standard are you referring to? Peter -Original Message- From: Sam Davis [mailto:sda...@ptitest.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 2:51 PM To: Gert Gremmen; Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft This has nothing to do with EMC or Product safety, but with personal and public safety. I'm with Ghery. Gert, your misrepresentation of his statement is ludicrous. Statistics bear this out. Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC. Look at Australia. The gov't took the gun ownership rights away, and violent crime rose horribly. Guns are not only offensive weapons, but defensive weapons as well. If some criminal approaches your wife with a gun, would you prefer her to have a pistol, or a whistle? What do you want your cops to defend your streets with? What about your military, to guard your ability to go to work, make a living, support your family, without having to worry if you'll be a captive prisoner of war, or worse? What about the security force at your airport? Guns even the playing field. When you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in, and can no longer defend their homes with the NECESSARY force. Fortunately, I live in a locale where gun ownership is not only allowed, but almost expected. Statistically, there are more guns than people per household. There is also a very low rate of home invasion. Since concealed carry permits have been issued, all violent crimes have dropped. Hijackers take planes because law-abiding travelers are not packing heat. I own multiple guns, legally, and I pray I never have to fire them in self defense, but I pray I don't have to use my ADD policy either. BTW, Ted, your statement Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change, I disagree with your first syllable. The reason we're the prime superpower is because the world knows we will use it if we have to. The reason our allies like us is because we've got their back, (and we've thrown billions of dollars to bail them out without actually expecting payback, but that's a completely different thread). Remember grade school, who got picked on? The kid that couldn't (or wouldn't) defend himself. The guys that were obviously able to return injury never had to fight. Think about that. If any of my statements offend you because of your national pride, I'm sorry. My national pride is what brought me in here. I mean no offense to your nation, just your government's anti-gun laws. My opinions are my own, but I know my boss will back me. He's a member, too. Proud member of the National Rifle Association, standing with my brothers, supporting our constitutional right to protect ourselves until the cops are able to arrive. Sam -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gert Gremmen Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:25 AM To: Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft So Ghery, Please let us all know your future flight schedual, so we can avoid sharing the same plane ... As you might know, yesterday, in analogy to USA 1963 Kennedy, a Netherlands Prime Minister kandidate , Pim Fortuin, a fighter for the rights for free speaking, to the degree that he attacked laws against discrimination, was killed by a such representative of the TRUE FREE MEN . I supposed , Ghery , that your interpretation of being a FREE man is not limited to the WORD... Gert Gremmen -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf
RE: stun guns on aircraft
Free men own guns. Yeah right. The true mark of a civilized country is that its citizens all own guns. Never been anywhere else, have you? It is just this sort if immature 19th century frontier mentality that is embarrassing the US in the eyes of the rest of the world. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: May 6, 2002 4:24 PM To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place to have gun fights too many lives are at risk the first priority is to get the plane safely on the ground, anywhere then at least the passengers have a chance Most citizens of most countries enjoy the security that comes from having thrashed out land rights, territorial disputes, and the systems of law and law enforcement before firearms were invented. America is one of the few places in the West that relies on firearms as a negotiating tool. This is poor judgement. Firearms are offensive weapons not negotiating tools. Giving someone a gun escalates an already dangerous situation. Now you want the pilot to not only assure the safety of the plane but also be an effective executioner. Asking too much IMHO. Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: stun guns on aircraft
I think he meant that swords are so much better then guns. Norman, Saxon, Moor, Gael, Roman, Aztec, Mayan, Mongol, Greek, English and the French and just about every society I have read about or know seemed taken by force and is defended by force and did quit well before the advent of the gun in killing themselves and their neighbors. But would not presume to speak for him. Technical Staff Senior EMC Engineer William Morse NCE -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 4:24 PM To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject:RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place to have gun fights too many lives are at risk the first priority is to get the plane safely on the ground, anywhere then at least the passengers have a chance Most citizens of most countries enjoy the security that comes from having thrashed out land rights, territorial disputes, and the systems of law and law enforcement before firearms were invented. America is one of the few places in the West that relies on firearms as a negotiating tool. This is poor judgement. Firearms are offensive weapons not negotiating tools. Giving someone a gun escalates an already dangerous situation. Now you want the pilot to not only assure the safety of the plane but also be an effective executioner. Asking too much IMHO. Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: stun guns on aircraft
This has nothing to do with EMC or Product safety forum, so please stop this thread. Regards, Naftali Shani, Catena Networks (www.catena.com) 307 Legget Drive, Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2K 3C8 613.599.6430/866.2CATENA (X.8277); C 295.7042; F 599.0445 E-mail: nsh...@catena.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: stun guns on aircraft
This has nothing to do with EMC or Product safety, but with personal and public safety. I'm with Ghery. Gert, your misrepresentation of his statement is ludicrous. Statistics bear this out. Crime rates drop drastically in nations where guns are freely owned by the PUBLIC. Look at Australia. The gov't took the gun ownership rights away, and violent crime rose horribly. Guns are not only offensive weapons, but defensive weapons as well. If some criminal approaches your wife with a gun, would you prefer her to have a pistol, or a whistle? What do you want your cops to defend your streets with? What about your military, to guard your ability to go to work, make a living, support your family, without having to worry if you'll be a captive prisoner of war, or worse? What about the security force at your airport? Guns even the playing field. When you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in, and can no longer defend their homes with the NECESSARY force. Fortunately, I live in a locale where gun ownership is not only allowed, but almost expected. Statistically, there are more guns than people per household. There is also a very low rate of home invasion. Since concealed carry permits have been issued, all violent crimes have dropped. Hijackers take planes because law-abiding travelers are not packing heat. I own multiple guns, legally, and I pray I never have to fire them in self defense, but I pray I don't have to use my ADD policy either. BTW, Ted, your statement Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change, I disagree with your first syllable. The reason we're the prime superpower is because the world knows we will use it if we have to. The reason our allies like us is because we've got their back, (and we've thrown billions of dollars to bail them out without actually expecting payback, but that's a completely different thread). Remember grade school, who got picked on? The kid that couldn't (or wouldn't) defend himself. The guys that were obviously able to return injury never had to fight. Think about that. If any of my statements offend you because of your national pride, I'm sorry. My national pride is what brought me in here. I mean no offense to your nation, just your government's anti-gun laws. My opinions are my own, but I know my boss will back me. He's a member, too. Proud member of the National Rifle Association, standing with my brothers, supporting our constitutional right to protect ourselves until the cops are able to arrive. Sam -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gert Gremmen Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:25 AM To: Pettit, Ghery; 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft So Ghery, Please let us all know your future flight schedual, so we can avoid sharing the same plane ... As you might know, yesterday, in analogy to USA 1963 Kennedy, a Netherlands Prime Minister kandidate , Pim Fortuin, a fighter for the rights for free speaking, to the degree that he attacked laws against discrimination, was killed by a such representative of the TRUE FREE MEN . I supposed , Ghery , that your interpretation of being a FREE man is not limited to the WORD... Gert Gremmen -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Pettit, Ghery Sent: dinsdag 7 mei 2002 01:24 To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place to have gun fights too many lives are at risk the first priority is to get the plane safely on the ground, anywhere then at least the passengers have a chance Most citizens of most countries enjoy the security that comes from having thrashed out land rights, territorial disputes, and the systems of law and law enforcement before firearms were invented. America is one of the few places in the West that relies on firearms as a negotiating tool. This is poor judgement. Firearms are offensive weapons not negotiating tools. Giving someone a gun escalates an already dangerous situation. Now you want the pilot to not only assure the safety of the plane but also be an effective executioner. Asking too much IMHO. Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended
RE: stun guns on aircraft
So Ghery, Please let us all know your future flight schedual, so we can avoid sharing the same plane ... As you might know, yesterday, in analogy to USA 1963 Kennedy, a Netherlands Prime Minister kandidate , Pim Fortuin, a fighter for the rights for free speaking, to the degree that he attacked laws against discrimination, was killed by a such representative of the TRUE FREE MEN . I supposed , Ghery , that your interpretation of being a FREE man is not limited to the WORD... Gert Gremmen -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Pettit, Ghery Sent: dinsdag 7 mei 2002 01:24 To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place to have gun fights too many lives are at risk the first priority is to get the plane safely on the ground, anywhere then at least the passengers have a chance Most citizens of most countries enjoy the security that comes from having thrashed out land rights, territorial disputes, and the systems of law and law enforcement before firearms were invented. America is one of the few places in the West that relies on firearms as a negotiating tool. This is poor judgement. Firearms are offensive weapons not negotiating tools. Giving someone a gun escalates an already dangerous situation. Now you want the pilot to not only assure the safety of the plane but also be an effective executioner. Asking too much IMHO. Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: stun guns on aircraft
Aa fresh can of worms. Regards, Kaz Gawrzyjal -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:24 PM To: 'Ted Rook'; Subject: RE: stun guns on aircraft I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place to have gun fights too many lives are at risk the first priority is to get the plane safely on the ground, anywhere then at least the passengers have a chance Most citizens of most countries enjoy the security that comes from having thrashed out land rights, territorial disputes, and the systems of law and law enforcement before firearms were invented. America is one of the few places in the West that relies on firearms as a negotiating tool. This is poor judgement. Firearms are offensive weapons not negotiating tools. Giving someone a gun escalates an already dangerous situation. Now you want the pilot to not only assure the safety of the plane but also be an effective executioner. Asking too much IMHO. Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: stun guns on aircraft
I've resisted jumping in in this fashion, but - FREE MEN OWN GUNS! Those who will trade essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin. Folks, the 2nd Amendment pre-dates the wild west by a long time. Those of us who value our RIGHTS are tired of the wimps in the world trying to take them away. Ghery S. Pettit Life Member, National Rifle Association -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:08 PM To: Subject: stun guns on aircraft and other safety considerations keep the hijackers off planes using ground security an airplane in flight is not the place to have gun fights too many lives are at risk the first priority is to get the plane safely on the ground, anywhere then at least the passengers have a chance Most citizens of most countries enjoy the security that comes from having thrashed out land rights, territorial disputes, and the systems of law and law enforcement before firearms were invented. America is one of the few places in the West that relies on firearms as a negotiating tool. This is poor judgement. Firearms are offensive weapons not negotiating tools. Giving someone a gun escalates an already dangerous situation. Now you want the pilot to not only assure the safety of the plane but also be an effective executioner. Asking too much IMHO. Unfortunately America was taken by force and is defended by force and is unlikely ever to change. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
I hate to pull rank here but I doubt if any of you have designed cock pit equipment, tested it, or done a FAA flight certification submittal. I have. Let me reply, below, to points made by Jeff and Gregg. Collins, Jeffrey wrote: Group, I happened to be flying on United Airlines this weekend and thought I'd run this topic by a few pilots. (I got a chance to speak with 4 pilots separately) The consensus from the UA pilots was: * The stun guns have been thoroughly tested in the cockpit and had no effect on the avionics systems. * Type of stun guns( Taser only) would be the type that shoot the electrode through the air at the target. * They all preferred hand guns with bullets over the Tasers. They all claim that tests have been done unloading several rounds of bullets into the fuselage of an aircraft at critical altitudes without having severe affects. I am in total agreement. High Voltage guns, whatever you call them, deliver a high voltage at a very low current. I have not tested with Tasers but I have done ESD. Tasers are roughly equivalent to an ESD test. ESD Tests showed occasional minor damage to microphones, particularly those mounted on the wall to the side of the pilot or the autopilot might disengage if the yoke were zapped. Pilots are trained for autopilot disengagement. Redundancy was tested in many ways. One was to shoot virtual bullets at equipment. Virtual paths were selected at random. All equipment in the path was suddenly turned off by tripping the breakers. No single virtual bullet ever effected the flyability of the airplane. Two bullets on opposite sides of airplane could be troublesome but probably not fatal. All tests were conducted using simulation on the ground. L The field of my survey was small and only targeted a single airline so I don't know how this would correlate across the entire pilots union. Just thought I'd share this piece of info for what its worth. Regards, Jeff Collins IGregg Kervill wrote: Dear All, Many thanks for your comments - I think it may be worth making some comments in summary: 1- Lightning has the same effect. Disagree - lightening is an external effect - Physics 101 and the Ice Pail experiment. If anyone doubts the difference go and visit the Munich Science Museum where every day (I think they still do it) a volunteer climbs into a metal 'pod' and is winched between two electrodes (about 20 feet apart) and becomes part of the discharge path. Seeing it sure beat reading about it at school. Any discharge on the inside of the Ice Pail is transferred 'instantaneously to the outside surface - this is, after all, the principle upon which the Van de Graff(sp?P generator is based. (Note the volunteer does NOT wave out of the window!!!) You are partially correct. Lightning is a much bigger problem. The E field is external to the airplane. The B field enters the airplane and penetrates most shielding and therefore is internal. Stun guns are mostly a E field problem. The Ice Pail shows immunity to E fields. The same is true of the cockpit equipment. It is almost perfectly contained within ice pails called ATR boxes. The same protection is afforded to stun guns. ATR boxes usually do not protect against B fields making lightning the bigger problem. Because lightning is not a question of IF, but rather of WHEN, and because lightning is bigger problem, equipment is designed to survive lightning. 2- Holes in structure versus hole and carriers in semiconductor substrates (yes it was a pun). I agree with those who preferred the idea of perforated eardrums (depressurization) to perforated electronics. 3- Dead Pilot versus Dead Electronics. Neither is ideal - but many (most) commercial aircraft are fly be wire - One of my clients make Simulators - and I flew (for the first time ever) and Air Bus (simulator) from London Heathrow to London Gatwick - Landed (ON THE RUNWAY) and taxied (the most difficult part) to the airport. I had full control of the simulator and was flying by instruments. The controls are ALL electronic and if there had been multiple (i.e. non-random) fails then even a pilot would not have been able to move the control surfaces. I'm not sure what your point is here. Air Buses use fiber optics for most flight critical systems. 4- Testing - at 50kV? any comments from ESD engineers out there? My tests only went to 25KV. I think it largely a matter of current which is determined by the size of the storage capacitor, more than the voltage. 5- TASER versus Stun gun - thanks for correcting my misunderstanding - Two comments - First - if the stun gun is discharged through the airframe there will be an induced potential in local electronic systems. Correction. There will be an induced current. The potential will be almost zero across the very low resistance of airframe. Second - if I must turn off my tape
RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft - summary and comments GK
Regarding the perforation of the aircraft by bullets, and the supposed gradual depressurization that should occur, it might be worth remembering the disaster of the world's first fleet of jet passenger aircraft, the British Comet. In the early 1950s they were falling out of the sky in some numbers. Very inconvenient. This was some 5 years before Boeing came out with its 707. Stress cracking caused a single, small window (about the same size as normal side windows) that the plane had on the top of the cabin, to begin to weaken. At some point the window began to crack and then suddenly gave way. The result was that nearly the entire contents of the cabin were explosively sucked through the open window. It took years to understand what had happened since all they could find was plane wreckage (usually under water) with bodies and seats scattered over an improbably large area. The result is that until the problem was found some years later, and corrected, the aircraft was taken out of service. It was this that allowed Boeing with its 707 (and shortly later, Douglas with its DC8) to catch up and dominate the market at the time. Suggesting that the only problem with bullet holes is that the pressurization system couldn't keep up with the air leakage, is therefore rather simplistic. The real problem is what happens when a window is hit and the pressure differential takes over causing explosive decompression. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Gregg Kervill [mailto:gkerv...@pgtv.net] Sent: May 6, 2002 9:42 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft - summary and comments GK Dear All, Many thanks for your comments - I think it may be worth making some comments in summary: 1- Lightning has the same effect. Disagree - lightening is an external effect - Physics 101 and the Ice Pail experiment. If anyone doubts the difference go and visit the Munich Science Museum where every day (I think they still do it) a volunteer climbs into a metal 'pod' and is winched between two electrodes (about 20 feet apart) and becomes part of the discharge path. Seeing it sure beat reading about it at school. Any discharge on the inside of the Ice Pail is transferred 'instantaneously to the outside surface - this is, after all, the principle upon which the Van de Graff(sp?P generator is based. (Note the volunteer does NOT wave out of the window!!!) 2- Holes in structure versus hole and carriers in semiconductor substrates (yes it was a pun). I agree with those who preferred the idea of perforated eardrums (depressurization) to perforated electronics. 3- Dead Pilot versus Dead Electronics. Neither is ideal - but many (most) commercial aircraft are fly be wire - One of my clients make Simulators - and I flew (for the first time ever) and Air Bus (simulator) from London Heathrow to London Gatwick - Landed (ON THE RUNWAY) and taxied (the most difficult part) to the airport. I had full control of the simulator and was flying by instruments. The controls are ALL electronic and if there had been multiple (i.e. non-random) fails then even a pilot would not have been able to move the control surfaces. 4- Testing - at 50kV? any comments from ESD engineers out there? 5- TASER versus Stun gun - thanks for correcting my misunderstanding - Two comments - First - if the stun gun is discharged through the airframe there will be an induced potential in local electronic systems. Second - if I must turn off my tape recorder (powered but a single AA cell) because it may affect systems then how is discharging 50k considered to be safe and OK??? 6- Design of interfaces to cope - some of the prototype systems that I did safety and reliability work on in (1995)uses surface mount components to provide lightening protection - these devices would not provide Creepage distances of more than a couple of millimeters. 7- Ground computers - I agree that this is worrying - the UK has even more out of date equipment and then the new system (that will control air traffic in the South of England) used equipment (and software) purchased in the late 80's early 90's. I just hope that it still works when they take it out of the box. The point is that RANDOM failures exist and there procedures have been developed (and practiced) to deal with them. Anything that induces non-random and multiple failures is - I suggest - another ball game. 8- The chances are low - I agree - I was flying back from the west coast the morning of 9-11 and I did not get a warm fuzzy feeling about probability when I watched the news footage - but I have made many flights since and it will not stop me from flying. I am grateful for the fact that Europe and the middle East are sharing their security experiences with the US. Security is a cultural thing and the US has a long way to go before it provides the same level of security from officials AND MORE IMPORTANTLY from
RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Relax. The worst would be a modern Windows-based system that must be rebooted after the 'blue-screens' and 'general protection faults'. David -Original Message- From: Fred Townsend [mailto:f...@poasana.com] Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:24 PM To: Gregg Kervill Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft. Do you think the EMI from a stun gun can compare to the airplane being hit by lightning? World wide, airplanes are hit by lightning every day. They don't crash. Relax If you want something to worry about... worry about the FAA flight tracking computers that were built the 1970s that fail every day somewhere across the USA. Be very worried. Fred Townsend Gregg Kervill wrote: There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Actually, I understand that those devices that shoot darts are called Tasers, while stun guns have two metallic probes with about 20 kV across them when the trigger is pushed. Typically they are used in direct contact with the aggressor, so there would not be any live wires or darts bouncing around inside of the aircraft. I agree with Scott in terms of holes in the aircraft skin. There presently is a controlled leak, usually in the rear of the aircraft, which controls the pressure inside. If there were some bullet holes in the skin, the controlled leak would just adjust to leak less. However, a window would be another story, but it would not be as dramatic as shown in most movies. The windows are plastic so probably would not completely blow out, but it would make a lot of noise. John Shinn, P.E. (also a pilot) -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of sco...@world.std.com Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:56 PM To: Gregg Kervill Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft. Gregg, I believe the type of device they are talking about is the kind that shoots a projectile with two electrodes that penetrate the skin. Thin wires remain attached to the gun and deliver shock pulses to the cockpit invader. I think that aircraft instrumentation has enough immunity to withstand emissions from the wires. The main trouble with this gadget (most of them are one shot deals) is if the bad guy was smart enough to bring friends. As for bullets, aircraft pressurization systems are designed with excess capacity. Even a couple of dozen bullet holes are very minor leaks for such a system. There would be a problem if a bullet damaged something but large aircraft have redundant systems for almost everything. Also, they would almost certainly only use pre- fragmented safety rounds. These are made up of very small birdshot stuck together and are designed to disintegrate on impact. I think by now it should be obvious which one I would want the pilot to have if I were one of the passengers. Scott Lacey On 3 May 2002 at 12:38, Gregg Kervill wrote: There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc
Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Gregg, it's bad enough being in Reliability getting on a plane without thinking of the probability of failure, how old the parts are, is there enough redundancy, number of failure free trips etc. etc. etc. Please, let's not go there ... grin Reissue those special air marshall pistols from when they used to carry pistols on planes and put a couple of undercover air marshalls on the plane. Anyway, I'm not sure what kind of stun gun they're talking about - stun guns that are tasers which shoot two metal darts attached by wire to a charge source or the stun guns which have two metal prongs permanently attached to the device which you have to stab at the attacker. In any event both, if accidentally contacted equipment in a cockpit, would cause massive contact currents to circulate across the equipment. I don't think cockpit equipment is put through that much immunity testing. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
...at least not North American trains, whose technology and infrastructure has fallen embarrassingly far behind that of much of the rest of the world. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com [mailto:lisa_cef...@mksinst.com] Sent: May 3, 2002 1:38 PM To: Fred Townsend Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; Gregg Kervill; owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft. Well, I'd debate comparing lightning to a stun gun... one is on the outside, and one on the inside. Lightning has a bit more of a barrier to overcome than say 3,000 Volts to an instrument panel. I'm with Gregg... Hadn't really thought of it, but now that I have, give them the guns! Gregg, it's bad enough being in Reliability getting on a plane without thinking of the probability of failure, how old the parts are, is there enough redundancy, number of failure free trips etc. etc. etc. I think you've just put the last nail in the coffin ; - ) .and trains aren't building too much confidence these days either . Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
It has also been demonstrated that stun guns can be defeated by wearing the right clothing. Personally, I vote for real guns. I want the perpetrator down permanently. Ghery Pettit -Original Message- From: sco...@world.std.com [mailto:sco...@world.std.com] Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:56 PM To: Gregg Kervill Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft. Gregg, I believe the type of device they are talking about is the kind that shoots a projectile with two electrodes that penetrate the skin. Thin wires remain attached to the gun and deliver shock pulses to the cockpit invader. I think that aircraft instrumentation has enough immunity to withstand emissions from the wires. The main trouble with this gadget (most of them are one shot deals) is if the bad guy was smart enough to bring friends. As for bullets, aircraft pressurization systems are designed with excess capacity. Even a couple of dozen bullet holes are very minor leaks for such a system. There would be a problem if a bullet damaged something but large aircraft have redundant systems for almost everything. Also, they would almost certainly only use pre- fragmented safety rounds. These are made up of very small birdshot stuck together and are designed to disintegrate on impact. I think by now it should be obvious which one I would want the pilot to have if I were one of the passengers. Scott Lacey On 3 May 2002 at 12:38, Gregg Kervill wrote: There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Gregg, I believe the type of device they are talking about is the kind that shoots a projectile with two electrodes that penetrate the skin. Thin wires remain attached to the gun and deliver shock pulses to the cockpit invader. I think that aircraft instrumentation has enough immunity to withstand emissions from the wires. The main trouble with this gadget (most of them are one shot deals) is if the bad guy was smart enough to bring friends. As for bullets, aircraft pressurization systems are designed with excess capacity. Even a couple of dozen bullet holes are very minor leaks for such a system. There would be a problem if a bullet damaged something but large aircraft have redundant systems for almost everything. Also, they would almost certainly only use pre- fragmented safety rounds. These are made up of very small birdshot stuck together and are designed to disintegrate on impact. I think by now it should be obvious which one I would want the pilot to have if I were one of the passengers. Scott Lacey On 3 May 2002 at 12:38, Gregg Kervill wrote: There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Try living with my wife - you'll beg for a stun gun to the old brain pan! Wait, wait, I was just kidding DO NOT CALL HER! She's already miffed about some other stuff I did this week! Have a good weekend. Gary -Original Message- From: Robert Wilson [mailto:robert_wil...@tirsys.com] Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 12:04 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft. I wouldn't get too paranoid about it. You are probably far more at risk on the ground in any US city, where a substantial number of people on the street are packing heat. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Gregg Kervill [mailto:gkerv...@pgtv.net] Sent: May 3, 2002 9:38 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Stun Guns on Aircraft. There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Well, I'd debate comparing lightning to a stun gun... one is on the outside, and one on the inside. Lightning has a bit more of a barrier to overcome than say 3,000 Volts to an instrument panel. I'm with Gregg... Hadn't really thought of it, but now that I have, give them the guns! Gregg, it's bad enough being in Reliability getting on a plane without thinking of the probability of failure, how old the parts are, is there enough redundancy, number of failure free trips etc. etc. etc. I think you've just put the last nail in the coffin ; - ) .and trains aren't building too much confidence these days either . Lisa Fred Townsend f...@poasana.com To: Gregg Kervill gkerv...@pgtv.net Sent by: cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org owner-emc-pstc@majordo Subject: Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft. mo.ieee.org 05/03/02 02:23 PM Please respond to Fred Townsend Do you think the EMI from a stun gun can compare to the airplane being hit by lightning? World wide, airplanes are hit by lightning every day. They don't crash. Relax If you want something to worry about... worry about the FAA flight tracking computers that were built the 1970s that fail every day somewhere across the USA. Be very worried. Fred Townsend Gregg Kervill wrote: There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Just to fuel the paranoia a tad further. I'm traveling to south Florida next week and of course it is difficult these days to carry firearms on commercial aircraft but I wish I were packing heat as you say in a city with one of the highest murder rates in the country. -- From: Robert Wilson robert_wil...@tirsys.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft. Date: Fri, May 3, 2002, 2:03 PM I wouldn't get too paranoid about it. You are probably far more at risk on the ground in any US city, where a substantial number of people on the street are packing heat. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Gregg Kervill [mailto:gkerv...@pgtv.net] Sent: May 3, 2002 9:38 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Stun Guns on Aircraft. There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
I wouldn't get too paranoid about it. You are probably far more at risk on the ground in any US city, where a substantial number of people on the street are packing heat. Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Gregg Kervill [mailto:gkerv...@pgtv.net] Sent: May 3, 2002 9:38 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Stun Guns on Aircraft. There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Do you think the EMI from a stun gun can compare to the airplane being hit by lightning? World wide, airplanes are hit by lightning every day. They don't crash. Relax If you want something to worry about... worry about the FAA flight tracking computers that were built the 1970s that fail every day somewhere across the USA. Be very worried. Fred Townsend Gregg Kervill wrote: There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
