Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-18 Thread John Allen 
J

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: 18 May 2018 19:26
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

 

Long ago, when men were men, women were women, and dogs did not wear scarfs
(sometime last year), had a customer that demanded the RAR for a component
power converter, along with the complete CB test report. When this level of
detail is required, have oft determined that the intent is to either to
build a specification for another supplier, or to assist in the reverse
engineer of the product.

 

The complete internal RAR should NOT be a public document, per both legal
and technical rationale.

 

Brian

Senior Cynical Engineering Advisor to the First Order

Join the Empire and crush the rebellion

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 

Sent: 17 May 2018 21:49

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

 

Don't ask for the whole RA, just ask for clear statements about points than
concern you.

 

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-05-17 20:27, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:

This is a timely topic for me.  Who are your "customers"?  We partner with
other various manufacturers, sometimes  integrating other's machinery
products in with ours or selling/servicing/refurbishing and providing heavy
technical support for them as is.  We sometimes ask for the manufacturers
risk assessment (asked for one this week)  so we can evaluate impact to our
larger product or see the specific details that impact our servicing.  We
see the resistance from some  Manufacturer's to provide risk assessments as
well.

 

-Dave

 

From: "Kunde, Brian" 

Reply-To: "Kunde, Brian" 

Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +

To: 

Conversation: Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Subject: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

 

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).

  

Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of all
new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN ISO
12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks and
allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which
minimizes the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a
document with a lot of detailed information including calculations, test
results, detailed data, and other design specifications.  Such information
is considered highly confidential by our company. 

 

On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by potential
customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our products.
Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot consider our
products unless we provide such documentation.  

 

1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did that
requirement become from? 

 

 

2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to provide
our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a requirement in the
Directives or Standards we use. 

 

 

3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you provide a
Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing such
information?  Couldn't this information be used against you in court? Is
there a fear of providing useful information to your competitors? 

 

 

Part 2:

I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are expecting
our company to provide. The examples documents are for the most part
meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if that is all
they want to make them happy, we are considering generating such a document
just to satisfy these requests.  Any comments? 

 

When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain from the
Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of residual risks
our products might have.  I reply that all residual risks are well
documented and warned about in the provided User Manual.  However, this
doesn't seem to satisfy them. They still want a Risk Assessment Report.  

 

So are other companies having to generate a stripped down Risk Assessment
with no real detail to satisfy these customer requests?  Or is it just us? 

 

Thanks for your input, comments, and suggestions.

 

The Other Brian

 

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used format

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-18 Thread Brian O'Connell 
Long ago, when men were men, women were women, and dogs did not wear scarfs 
(sometime last year), had a customer that demanded the RAR for a component 
power converter, along with the complete CB test report. When this level of 
detail is required, have oft determined that the intent is to either to build a 
specification for another supplier, or to assist in the reverse engineer of the 
product.

The complete internal RAR should NOT be a public document, per both legal and 
technical rationale.

Brian
Senior Cynical Engineering Advisor to the First Order
Join the Empire and crush the rebellion


From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: 17 May 2018 21:49
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Don't ask for the whole RA, just ask for clear statements about points than 
concern you.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-05-17 20:27, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:
This is a timely topic for me.  Who are your "customers"?  We partner with 
other various manufacturers, sometimes  integrating other's machinery products 
in with ours or selling/servicing/refurbishing and providing heavy technical 
support for them as is.  We sometimes ask for the manufacturers risk assessment 
(asked for one this week)  so we can evaluate impact to our larger product or 
see the specific details that impact our servicing.  We see the resistance from 
some  Manufacturer's to provide risk assessments as well.
 
-Dave
 
From: "Kunde, Brian" 
Reply-To: "Kunde, Brian" 
Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
To: 
Conversation: Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
Subject: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).
  
Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of all 
new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN ISO 
12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks and 
allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which minimizes 
the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a document with a 
lot of detailed information including calculations, test results, detailed 
data, and other design specifications.  Such information is considered highly 
confidential by our company. 
 
On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by potential 
customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our products. 
Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot consider our 
products unless we provide such documentation.  
 
1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did that 
requirement become from? 


2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to provide 
our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a requirement in the 
Directives or Standards we use. 


3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you provide a 
Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing such information?  
Couldn't this information be used against you in court? Is there a fear of 
providing useful information to your competitors? 


Part 2:
I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are expecting 
our company to provide. The examples documents are for the most part 
meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if that is all they 
want to make them happy, we are considering generating such a document just to 
satisfy these requests.  Any comments? 
 
When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain from the 
Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of residual risks our 
products might have.  I reply that all residual risks are well documented and 
warned about in the provided User Manual.  However, this doesn't seem to 
satisfy them. They still want a Risk Assessment Report.  
 
So are other companies having to generate a stripped down Risk Assessment with 
no real detail to satisfy these customer requests?  Or is it just us? 
 
Thanks for your input, comments, and suggestions.
 
The Other Brian

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Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-18 Thread Schmidt, Mark 
Integrators of complex systems interfacing with other manufacturers equipment, 
aerospace and military excluded and should provide a RAR. I am sure there are 
other situations as well. If we look at Brian's intro to his question "Our 
company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers)".

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 5:11 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Having been asked to do an RAR on very "difficult" project (a substantial 
update to the MoD/Quinetiq  rocket projectile testing range control system at 
Pendine Sands in S. Wales!) some years ago, before I did that I made it very 
clear to the customer's Project Safety Engineer that - given the very unusual 
combination of high potential disk but low actual rate at which the system 
was/is actually operated - we would check out and then state the conditions of 
use, and potential resultant risk issues that might arise, but it was up to 
them to accept that and do the overall RA for the complete installation as we 
had no control on that as we could not determine the Probabilities of 
"something" going wrong and resulting in some form of "Accident" We would 
(and we did) identify the Risks and the Severities thereof, but they would then 
have to identify the Probabilities thereof - they/he agreed, and I suggest that 
any contracting company should do the same in anything like similar 
circumstances!

John E Allen
W.London, UK

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: 17 May 2018 21:49
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments


Don't ask for the whole RA, just ask for clear statements about points than 
concern you.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.woodjohn.uk&d=DwMFAg&c=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA&r=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw&m=5L_kLlqlRopFjsYDNE8XBv-D2lIbthtW7V97oChEeOk&s=xLWf-08QRg9zCrfngutnDn4XXKVODDI1kDHSU6Azuz4&e=>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-05-17 20:27, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:
This is a timely topic for me.  Who are your "customers"?  We partner with 
other various manufacturers, sometimes  integrating other's machinery products 
in with ours or selling/servicing/refurbishing and providing heavy technical 
support for them as is.  We sometimes ask for the manufacturers risk assessment 
(asked for one this week)  so we can evaluate impact to our larger product or 
see the specific details that impact our servicing.  We see the resistance from 
some  Manufacturer's to provide risk assessments as well.

-Dave

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 2:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Just commentary - no authoritative information. This sounds like the customer 
company's lawyers looking to divert blame in the event of a lawsuit by showing 
due diligence on their part, and maybe, just maybe, redirecting the blame 
vector towards your company if someone can make the case your company didn't 
adequately assess your product's risk.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "Kunde, Brian" <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>
Reply-To: "Kunde, Brian" <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
To: <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Conversation: Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
Subject: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).

Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of all 
new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN ISO 
12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks and 
allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which minimizes 
the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a document with a 
lot of detailed information including calculations, test results, detailed 
data, and other design specifications.  Such information is considered highly 
confidential by our company.

On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by potential 
customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our products. 
Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot consider our 
products unless we provide such documentation.

1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did that 
requirement become from?


2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to provide 
our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do n

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread Schmidt, Mark 
Nice.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 3:59 PM
To: Schmidt, Mark; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments


An engineer and a lawyer argued about whose was the oldest profession. 'The 
creation of the Universe itself was obviously an engineering task', said the 
engineer. 'Before that there was only chaos'. 'Who do you think created the 
chaos?' said the lawyer.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.woodjohn.uk&d=DwMD-g&c=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA&r=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw&m=TUmoa4HpCuCq48eGbcwJaeOUfUrIn7JqAcVz93T1kFM&s=-OUV6qJqLKZInn8G1VVBpC6jXllEWLyjwxLgdCMk4hY&e=>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-05-17 20:41, Schmidt, Mark wrote:
Commentary as well,

If the customer is a contractual partner or OEM I would typically share reports 
and such the contractual agreement between the two parties identify 
responsibility/liability and corporate lawyers involved. I believe the user 
manual is adequate for all other customers. Being the professional people we 
are the user manual will typically define the hazards adequately for the end 
user. So if one of your customers employee uses or abuses the instrument in any 
other manner outside the scope of its intended use (defined in the user manual) 
then they are responsible for their employees misuse and not your company. I 
know you make some pretty niche market stuff so if it were me I would hold my 
ground and not produce the RA. Your EN12100 and User manual is sufficient.
It continues to amaze me as I grow old, how people in the corporate world have 
nothing better to do with their time but to create chaos. Making corporate life 
difficult and sometimes meaningless. There was a time where Company A produced 
and sold a product and Company B said wow what a great product. The end.

Regards,
Mark Schmidt


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Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread John Allen 
Having been asked to do an RAR on very "difficult" project (a substantial
update to the MoD/Quinetiq  rocket projectile testing range control system
at Pendine Sands in S. Wales!) some years ago, before I did that I made it
very clear to the customer's Project Safety Engineer that - given the very
unusual combination of high potential disk but low actual rate at which the
system was/is actually operated - we would check out and then state the
conditions of use, and potential resultant risk issues that might arise, but
it was up to them to accept that and do the overall RA for the complete
installation as we had no control on that as we could not determine the
Probabilities of "something" going wrong and resulting in some form of
"Accident" We would (and we did) identify the Risks and the Severities
thereof, but they would then have to identify the Probabilities thereof -
they/he agreed, and I suggest that any contracting company should do the
same in anything like similar circumstances!

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: 17 May 2018 21:49
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

 

Don't ask for the whole RA, just ask for clear statements about points than
concern you.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-05-17 20:27, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:

This is a timely topic for me.  Who are your "customers"?  We partner with
other various manufacturers, sometimes  integrating other's machinery
products in with ours or selling/servicing/refurbishing and providing heavy
technical support for them as is.  We sometimes ask for the manufacturers
risk assessment (asked for one this week)  so we can evaluate impact to our
larger product or see the specific details that impact our servicing.  We
see the resistance from some  Manufacturer's to provide risk assessments as
well.

 

-Dave

 

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 2:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

 

Just commentary - no authoritative information. This sounds like the
customer company's lawyers looking to divert blame in the event of a lawsuit
by showing due diligence on their part, and maybe, just maybe, redirecting
the blame vector towards your company if someone can make the case your
company didn't adequately assess your product's risk.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261






  _  


From: "Kunde, Brian"  <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>

Reply-To: "Kunde, Brian"  <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>

Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Conversation: Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
Subject: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).
  
Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of all
new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN ISO
12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks and
allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which
minimizes the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a
document with a lot of detailed information including calculations, test
results, detailed data, and other design specifications.  Such information
is considered highly confidential by our company. 
 
On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by potential
customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our products.
Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot consider our
products unless we provide such documentation.  
 
1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did that
requirement become from? 


2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to provide
our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a requirement in the
Directives or Standards we use. 


3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you provide a
Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing such
information?  Couldn't this information be used against you in court? Is
there a fear of providing useful information to your competitors? 


Part 2:
I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are expecting
our company to provide. The examples documents are for the most part
meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if that is all
they want to make them happy, we are considering generating such a document
just to satisfy these requests.  Any comments? 
 
When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain from the
Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of residual risks
our

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread John Woodgate 
Don't ask for the whole RA, just ask for clear statements about points 
than concern you.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-05-17 20:27, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

This is a timely topic for me.  Who are your “customers”?  We partner 
with other various manufacturers, sometimes  integrating other’s 
machinery products in with ours or selling/servicing/refurbishing and 
providing heavy technical support for them as is.  We sometimes ask 
for the manufacturers risk assessment (asked for one this week)  so we 
can evaluate impact to our larger product or see the specific details 
that impact our servicing.  We see the resistance from some 
 Manufacturer’s to provide risk assessments as well.


-Dave

*From:*Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, May 17, 2018 2:57 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Just commentary – no authoritative information. This sounds like the 
customer company’s lawyers looking to divert blame in the event of a 
lawsuit by showing due diligence on their part, and maybe, just maybe, 
redirecting the blame vector towards your company if someone can make 
the case your company didn’t adequately assess your product's risk.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261




*From: *"Kunde, Brian" 
*Reply-To: *"Kunde, Brian" 
*Date: *Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
*To: *
*Conversation: *Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
*Subject: *[PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).

Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage 
of all new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally 
use the EN ISO 12100. Creating this document highlights the possible 
sources of risks and allows our engineers to design products with an 
inherent design which minimizes the risks as much as possible.   Our 
Risk Assessment becomes a document with a lot of detailed information 
including calculations, test results, detailed data, and other design 
specifications.  Such information is considered highly confidential by 
our company.


On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by 
potential customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for 
our products. Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or 
cannot consider our products unless we provide such documentation.


1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did 
that requirement become from?



2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to 
provide our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a 
requirement in the Directives or Standards we use.



3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you 
provide a Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing 
such information?  Couldn’t this information be used against you in 
court? Is there a fear of providing useful information to your 
competitors?



Part 2:
I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are 
expecting our company to provide. The examples documents are for the 
most part meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if 
that is all they want to make them happy, we are considering 
generating such a document just to satisfy these requests.  Any comments?


When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain 
from the Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of 
residual risks our products might have.  I reply that all residual 
risks are well documented and warned about in the provided User 
Manual.  However, this doesn’t seem to satisfy them. They still want a 
Risk Assessment Report.


So are other companies having to generate a stripped down Risk 
Assessment with no real detail to satisfy these customer requests?  Or 
is it just us?


Thanks for your input, comments, and suggestions.

The Other Brian



*LECO Corporation Notice:**This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received 
this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

*-


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<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>


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<http:/

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread Doug Powell 
Brian,

I have been asked to provide a risk assessment prior to the contract being
signed.  In my case it is for large systems to be installed on a customer
site by an EPC (engineering procurement & construction).  When I received
an example report from the EPC, it too was a fairly "*dumbed down*" version
of what I would normally do. It was in the form of an FMEA, which matches
what we do.

When I submitted my version (PDF only) to the EPC, they immediately came
back with several comments related to format and the color highlights I
used on the RPN numbers as related to thresholds, but nothing of actual
substance.  So, I took the opportunity to reformat.

   - All conditional color highlights are now tied to a flag I can turn on
   and off for printing.  This made for a basically B&W report and we use the
   colors with our team of SMEs.
   - Proprietary information is masked and marked as such prior to printing
   in PDF.  The topic headings were listed, proprietary information masked and
   resulting RPN numbers given. This was not done if the company has a
   confidentiality agreement of some kind.
   - Any FMEA risk items we felt had no direct impact on the customer, end
   users, etc.and would not change based on customer any known action or
   protections were removed.  We kept the master list for internal purposes
   only.  Examples may be found in PFEMA or MFMEA as opposed to DFMEA.
   - I developed various report formats using original data and based on
   requirements from IEC/ISO, UL/CSA, MIL-STD, etc.
   - I never put a functional excel worksheet in our company document
   system as too often our sales people would tell the customer, "*Oh, I
   have something here, let me just send it long*"

On the topic of removed items, in one example we listed a risk of fire ants
(genus Solenopsis) attracted to electrical fields in equipment and causing
damage; not applicable in many parts of the world.  And taking this out it
streamlines the review process as it avoided questions like "*what does
this mean?*".

Out of curiosity, I decided to look up the professional profile a few of
these people who are making the requirements and found they are often
non-technical,
paper pushers.  So in the end what they wanted was a document to add to
their files to show they are exercising due diligence and to check off one
more box on their checklist.

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

---
I don't get lost, I accidentally go on adventures.







On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Kunde, Brian 
wrote:

> Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).
>
>
>
> Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of
> all new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN
> ISO 12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks
> and allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which
> minimizes the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a
> document with a lot of detailed information including calculations, test
> results, detailed data, and other design specifications.  Such information
> is considered highly confidential by our company.
>
>
>
> On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by
> potential customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our
> products. Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot
> consider our products unless we provide such documentation.
>
>
>
> 1.   Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did that
> requirement become from?
>
> 2.   Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to
> provide our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a
> requirement in the Directives or Standards we use.
>
> 3.   Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you
> provide a Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing such
> information?  Couldn’t this information be used against you in court? Is
> there a fear of providing useful information to your competitors?
>
>
>
> Part 2:
>
> I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are
> expecting our company to provide. The examples documents are for the most
> part meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if that is
> all they want to make them happy, we are considering generating such a
> document just to satisfy these requests.  Any comments?
>
>
>
> When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain from
> the Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of residual
> risks our products might have.  I reply that all residual risks are well
> documented and warned about in the provided User Manual.  However, this
> doesn’t seem to satisfy them. They still want a Risk Assessment Report.
>
>
>
> So are other companies hav

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread Doug Smith 




HI Brian and the group,

With respect to providing information to your competitors, which I have seen 
happen to many of my clients when they furnish documentation to prospective 
customers, I would have them sign an NDA so they would be liable if the 
information was divulged to a third party without your permission. This would 
apply to quotes and other documentation like your risk assessment. I have seen 
companies take a quote from one of my clients and send it to a competitor to 
see if the competitor can beat the quote. The competitor underbids on the 
project even though are not even competent to do the work! Also your document 
should be marked company confidential, not for distribution. This is not 
unusual and you need to protect yourself and your company.

Doug








On Thu, 17 May 2018 13:56:55 -0500, Ken Javor  wrote:






Just commentary – no authoritative information. This sounds like the customer 
company’s lawyers looking to divert blame in the event of a lawsuit by showing 
due diligence on their part, and maybe, just maybe, redirecting the blame 
vector towards your company if someone can make the case your company didn’t 
adequately assess your product's risk.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


 
From: "Kunde, Brian" 
Reply-To: "Kunde, Brian" 
Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
To: 
Conversation: Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
Subject: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).
  
Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of all 
new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN ISO 
12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks and 
allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which minimizes 
the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a 
document with a lot of detailed information including calculations, test 
results, detailed data, and other design specifications.  Such information 
is considered highly confidential by our company.
 
On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by potential 
customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our products. 
Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot consider our 
products unless we provide such documentation.  
 
1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk 
Assessment?  Where did that requirement become from? 


2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are 
we obligated to provide our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see 
such a requirement in the Directives or Standards we use. 


3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If 
so, do you provide a Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about 
providing such information?  Couldn’t this information be used against you 
in court? Is there a fear of providing useful information to your competitors? 


Part 2:
I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are expecting 
our company to provide. The examples documents are for the most part 
meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if that is all 
they want to make them happy, we are considering generating such a document 
just to satisfy these requests.  Any comments?
 
When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain from the 
Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of residual risks our 
products might have.  I reply that all residual risks are well documented 
and warned about in the provided User Manual.  However, this doesn’t seem 
to satisfy them. They still want a Risk Assessment Report.  
 
So are other companies having to generate a stripped down Risk Assessment with 
no real detail to satisfy these customer requests?  Or is it just us?
 
Thanks for your input, comments, and suggestions.
 
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 
-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread Nyffenegger, Dave 
This is a timely topic for me.  Who are your "customers"?  We partner with 
other various manufacturers, sometimes  integrating other's machinery products 
in with ours or selling/servicing/refurbishing and providing heavy technical 
support for them as is.  We sometimes ask for the manufacturers risk assessment 
(asked for one this week)  so we can evaluate impact to our larger product or 
see the specific details that impact our servicing.  We see the resistance from 
some  Manufacturer's to provide risk assessments as well.

-Dave

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 2:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Just commentary - no authoritative information. This sounds like the customer 
company's lawyers looking to divert blame in the event of a lawsuit by showing 
due diligence on their part, and maybe, just maybe, redirecting the blame 
vector towards your company if someone can make the case your company didn't 
adequately assess your product's risk.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "Kunde, Brian" 
Reply-To: "Kunde, Brian" 
Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
To: 
Conversation: Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
Subject: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).

Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of all 
new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN ISO 
12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks and 
allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which minimizes 
the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a document with a 
lot of detailed information including calculations, test results, detailed 
data, and other design specifications.  Such information is considered highly 
confidential by our company.

On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by potential 
customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our products. 
Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot consider our 
products unless we provide such documentation.

1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did that 
requirement become from?


2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to provide 
our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a requirement in the 
Directives or Standards we use.


3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you provide a 
Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing such information?  
Couldn't this information be used against you in court? Is there a fear of 
providing useful information to your competitors?


Part 2:
I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are expecting 
our company to provide. The examples documents are for the most part 
meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if that is all they 
want to make them happy, we are considering generating such a document just to 
satisfy these requests.  Any comments?

When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain from the 
Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of residual risks our 
products might have.  I reply that all residual risks are well documented and 
warned about in the provided User Manual.  However, this doesn't seem to 
satisfy them. They still want a Risk Assessment Report.

So are other companies having to generate a stripped down Risk Assessment with 
no real detail to satisfy these customer requests?  Or is it just us?

Thanks for your input, comments, and suggestions.

The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread John Woodgate 
An engineer and a lawyer argued about whose was the oldest profession. 
'The creation of the Universe itself was obviously an engineering task', 
said the engineer. 'Before that there was only chaos'. 'Who do you think 
created the chaos?' said the lawyer.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-05-17 20:41, Schmidt, Mark wrote:

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Commentary as well,

If the customer is a contractual partner or OEM I would typically 
share reports and such the contractual agreement between the two 
parties identify responsibility/liability and corporate lawyers 
involved. I believe the user manual is adequate for all other 
customers. Being the professional people we are the user manual will 
typically define the hazards adequately for the end user. So if one of 
your customers employee uses or abuses the instrument in any other 
manner outside the scope of its intended use (defined in the user 
manual) then they are responsible for their employees misuse and not 
your company. I know you make some pretty niche market stuff so if it 
were me I would hold my ground and not produce the RA. Your EN12100 
and User manual is sufficient.


It continues to amaze me as I grow old, how people in the corporate 
world have nothing better to do with their time but to create chaos. 
Making corporate life difficult and sometimes meaningless. There was a 
time where Company A produced and sold a product and Company B said 
wow what a great product. The end.


Regards,

Mark Schmidt





-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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formats), large files, etc.

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Mike Cantwell 

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David Heald:

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread Schmidt, Mark 
Commentary as well,

If the customer is a contractual partner or OEM I would typically share reports 
and such the contractual agreement between the two parties identify 
responsibility/liability and corporate lawyers involved. I believe the user 
manual is adequate for all other customers. Being the professional people we 
are the user manual will typically define the hazards adequately for the end 
user. So if one of your customers employee uses or abuses the instrument in any 
other manner outside the scope of its intended use (defined in the user manual) 
then they are responsible for their employees misuse and not your company. I 
know you make some pretty niche market stuff so if it were me I would hold my 
ground and not produce the RA. Your EN12100 and User manual is sufficient.
It continues to amaze me as I grow old, how people in the corporate world have 
nothing better to do with their time but to create chaos. Making corporate life 
difficult and sometimes meaningless. There was a time where Company A produced 
and sold a product and Company B said wow what a great product. The end.

Regards,
Mark Schmidt

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 2:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Just commentary - no authoritative information. This sounds like the customer 
company's lawyers looking to divert blame in the event of a lawsuit by showing 
due diligence on their part, and maybe, just maybe, redirecting the blame 
vector towards your company if someone can make the case your company didn't 
adequately assess your product's risk.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "Kunde, Brian" 
Reply-To: "Kunde, Brian" 
Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
To: 
Conversation: Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
Subject: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).

Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of all 
new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN ISO 
12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks and 
allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which minimizes 
the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a document with a 
lot of detailed information including calculations, test results, detailed 
data, and other design specifications.  Such information is considered highly 
confidential by our company.

On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by potential 
customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our products. 
Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot consider our 
products unless we provide such documentation.

1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did that 
requirement become from?


2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to provide 
our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a requirement in the 
Directives or Standards we use.


3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you provide a 
Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing such information?  
Couldn't this information be used against you in court? Is there a fear of 
providing useful information to your competitors?


Part 2:
I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are expecting 
our company to provide. The examples documents are for the most part 
meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if that is all they 
want to make them happy, we are considering generating such a document just to 
satisfy these requests.  Any comments?

When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain from the 
Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of residual risks our 
products might have.  I reply that all residual risks are well documented and 
warned about in the provided User Manual.  However, this doesn't seem to 
satisfy them. They still want a Risk Assessment Report.

So are other companies having to generate a stripped down Risk Assessment with 
no real detail to satisfy these customer requests?  Or is it just us?

Thanks for your input, comments, and suggestions.

The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread John Woodgate 
I agree. You may be able to make your published RAR somewhat more 
meaningful than others, without disclosing sensitive information. This 
would be a marketing advantage.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-05-17 19:56, Ken Javor wrote:
Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments Just commentary – no 
authoritative information. This sounds like the customer company’s 
lawyers looking to divert blame in the event of a lawsuit by showing 
due diligence on their part, and maybe, just maybe, redirecting the 
blame vector towards your company if someone can make the case your 
company didn’t adequately assess your product's risk.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261




*From: *"Kunde, Brian" 
*Reply-To: *"Kunde, Brian" 
*Date: *Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
*To: *
*Conversation: *Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
*Subject: *[PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).

Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage 
of all new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally 
use the EN ISO 12100. Creating this document highlights the possible 
sources of risks and allows our engineers to design products with an 
inherent design which minimizes the risks as much as possible.   Our 
Risk Assessment becomes a document with a lot of detailed information 
including calculations, test results, detailed data, and other design 
specifications.  Such information is considered highly confidential by 
our company.


On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by 
potential customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for 
our products. Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or 
cannot consider our products unless we provide such documentation.


1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did 
that requirement become from?



2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to 
provide our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a 
requirement in the Directives or Standards we use.



3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you 
provide a Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing 
such information?  Couldn’t this information be used against you in 
court? Is there a fear of providing useful information to your 
competitors?



Part 2:
I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are 
expecting our company to provide. The examples documents are for the 
most part meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if 
that is all they want to make them happy, we are considering 
generating such a document just to satisfy these requests.  Any comments?


When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain 
from the Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of 
residual risks our products might have.  I reply that all residual 
risks are well documented and warned about in the provided User 
Manual.  However, this doesn’t seem to satisfy them. They still want a 
Risk Assessment Report.


So are other companies having to generate a stripped down Risk 
Assessment with no real detail to satisfy these customer requests?  Or 
is it just us?


Thanks for your input, comments, and suggestions.

The Other Brian

*LECO Corporation Notice:**This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received 
this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

*-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html


Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
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Mike Cantwell 

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and

Re: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

2018-05-17 Thread Ken Javor 
Just commentary ­ no authoritative information. This sounds like the
customer company¹s lawyers looking to divert blame in the event of a lawsuit
by showing due diligence on their part, and maybe, just maybe, redirecting
the blame vector towards your company if someone can make the case your
company didn¹t adequately assess your product's risk.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261




From: "Kunde, Brian" 
Reply-To: "Kunde, Brian" 
Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 18:43:38 +
To: 
Conversation: Customer Requests for Risk Assessments
Subject: [PSES] Customer Requests for Risk Assessments

Our company makes Laboratory Equipment (test and measurement analyzers).
  
Our company performs a Risk Assessment early in the development stage of all
new products as so suggested by such documents. We generally use the EN ISO
12100. Creating this document highlights the possible sources of risks and
allows our engineers to design products with an inherent design which
minimizes the risks as much as possible.   Our Risk Assessment becomes a
document with a lot of detailed information including calculations, test
results, detailed data, and other design specifications.  Such information
is considered highly confidential by our company.
 
On occasion, and in increasing frequency, our company is asked by potential
customers to provide them with a Risk Assessment Report for our products.
Sometimes they threaten us such as they will not or cannot consider our
products unless we provide such documentation.
 
1.  Why are customers asking for a Risk Assessment?  Where did that
requirement become from?


2.  Other than the potential loss of a sale, are we obligated to provide
our customer with a Risk Assessment?  I do not see such a requirement in the
Directives or Standards we use.


3.  Any of you been receiving similar requests? If so, do you provide a
Risk Assessment? If so, are you not worried about providing such
information?  Couldn¹t this information be used against you in court? Is
there a fear of providing useful information to your competitors?

 
Part 2:
I have requested a sample of the Risk Assessment our customers are expecting
our company to provide. The examples documents are for the most part
meaningless with little real detail about anything.  But, if that is all
they want to make them happy, we are considering generating such a document
just to satisfy these requests.  Any comments?
 
When I ask our customers what information they are looking to gain from the
Risk Assessment, they tell me they want to know the level of residual risks
our products might have.  I reply that all residual risks are well
documented and warned about in the provided User Manual.  However, this
doesn¹t seem to satisfy them. They still want a Risk Assessment Report.
 
So are other companies having to generate a stripped down Risk Assessment
with no real detail to satisfy these customer requests?  Or is it just us?
 
Thanks for your input, comments, and suggestions.
 
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe) 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  
David Heald 



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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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