Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver 
wrote (in )
about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Tue, 7 Jan 2003:

>I'm confident TC74 debated this into the ground, since the
>US has always preferred using words, rather than symbols,

Maybe, but it seems to have been dropped in later editions of IEC 60950
(and -1). In any case, it's a bit of a jump of reasoning from 'caution'
to read the instructions'.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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RE: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Peter L. Tarver]

John -

Your critique seems misplaced.  Per ISO 7000, Symbol 434
means "Caution."  How it's used, whether as a road sign or
as a means to get someone's attention directed to an
instruction manual, is not described in ISO 7000 and must,
therefore, be assumed for use at the standards committee's
discretion.  If there are no words to support a specific
caution, where would one go to discover such a thing but he
instructions?

I'm confident TC74 debated this into the ground, since the
US has always preferred using words, rather than symbols,
based on ANSI/NEMA Z535.4 (Product Safety Signs and Labels),
ANSI/SAE J1500 (Operator Controls, Universal Symbols) for
and other preexisting US national standards.  There are
those who12 still actively resist use of symbols in place of
words.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver, PE
Product Safety Manager
Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services
San Jose, CA
peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com

> From: John Woodgate
> Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 2:58 PM
>
> I read in emc-pstc that Hans Mellberg wrote:
> > Aren't we already using symbols not in 417 such
> > as the Hazard Warning (exclamation
> > in a triangle) which is an international(except
> > US) road hazard sign?
>
> It's in ISO 7000 - no. 0434, and it DOESN'T mean
> 'read the instructions'
> as it is used in some editions of IEC 60950.
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate



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RE: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Gregg Kervill]

My comments below, best regards Gregg


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of ggars...@us.tuv.com
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 3:04 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)


On defense of the use of symbols:

I haven't read every posting on this thread, but as I understand it, for
the indoor use symbol, even the original poster has since stated that he
was pretty sure what it meant. It seemed to me that  his original question
was mainly focussed on where it came from; i.e. he just wanted to confirm
that it "officially" means no more and no less than what it seems to mean.

Personally, IF/when a warning is required at all (separate issue!) I would
much prefer a symbol than some small print in a language that I can't read.
Beside which it is a legal requirement that warnings be in an appropriate
(e.g. locally used) language, legible and permanent.  : *}

(And remember that even in developed areas including USA and EU, the
functional literacy rate is significantly less than 100%.)
I have seen figures quoted at 70% for the UK


best regards, glyn
TUV Rheinland of North America, Inc.
Product Safety & -Quality
Industrial Machinery Division (Chicago Office)

Glyn R. Garside
Senior Engineer
1945 Techny Rd, Unit 4
NORTHBROOK, IL 60062-5357, USA
Tel  (847)562-9888 ext 25
email ggars...@us.tuv.com
http://www.us.tuv.com




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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Lou Aiken]

OK, I think we are back to where we started.  Best Regards, Lou

Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC
27109 Palmetto Drive
Orange Beach, AL
36561 USA

tel ++ 1 251 981 6786
fax ++ 1 251 981 3054
Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648

From: John Woodgate 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)


>
> I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken  wrote (in
> <001701c2b5af$822a26e0$db8066d1@default>) about 'strange symbols (to me
> anyway)' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003:
> >I have no objection to the house and arrow symbol meaning "indoor use
only"
> >being made an official 417 symbol, but I can forsee no use for it.
>
> To inform people who don't, and can't be expected to, understand IP
> codes?
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go
to
> http://www.isce.org.uk
> PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
>
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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Hans Mellberg  wrote
(in <20030106214810.5293.qm...@web40904.mail.yahoo.com>) about 'strange
symbols (to me anyway)' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003:
>Aren't we already using symbols not in 417 such as the Hazard Warning 
>(exclamation
>in a triangle) which is an international(except US) road hazard sign?

It's in ISO 7000 - no. 0434, and it DOESN'T mean 'read the instructions'
as it is used in some editions of IEC 60950.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken  wrote (in
<001701c2b5af$822a26e0$db8066d1@default>) about 'strange symbols (to me
anyway)' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003:
>I have no objection to the house and arrow symbol meaning "indoor use only"
>being made an official 417 symbol, but I can forsee no use for it.

To inform people who don't, and can't be expected to, understand IP
codes?
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Hans Mellberg]

Aren't we already using symbols not in 417 such as the Hazard Warning
(exclamation
in a triangle) which is an international(except US) road hazard sign?


__
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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[ggars...@us.tuv.com]

On defense of the use of symbols:

I haven't read every posting on this thread, but as I understand it, for
the indoor use symbol, even the original poster has since stated that he
was pretty sure what it meant. It seemed to me that  his original question
was mainly focussed on where it came from; i.e. he just wanted to confirm
that it "officially" means no more and no less than what it seems to mean.

Personally, IF/when a warning is required at all (separate issue!) I would
much prefer a symbol than some small print in a language that I can't read.
(And remember that even in developed areas including USA and EU, the
functional literacy rate is significantly less than 100%.)

best regards, glyn
TUV Rheinland of North America, Inc.
Product Safety & -Quality
Industrial Machinery Division (Chicago Office)

Glyn R. Garside
Senior Engineer
1945 Techny Rd, Unit 4
NORTHBROOK, IL 60062-5357, USA
Tel  (847)562-9888 ext 25
email ggars...@us.tuv.com
http://www.us.tuv.com




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RE: strange symbols (to me anyway) and the winner is......... Wan Juan Foo or JBarnes

[Gary McInturff]

That indeed is the symbol Thank you. I'm at a remote location with 
connection
speed of about 0 so I'll have to wait to look at what it means. I downloaded
the 9th page first at your recommendation and will wait until I can get a
better speed to do the rest.
Thank you Gary


From: Wan Juang Foo [mailto:f...@np.edu.sg]
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:47 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)




John Barnes wrote on 01/04/03 07:55 AM
> If you go tohttp://www.cellotape.com/contents.pdfpage 9, is
> symbol 139 the one that is on your wireless unit?


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Lou Aiken]

John,

I have no objection to the house and arrow symbol meaning "indoor use only"
being made an official 417 symbol, but I can forsee no use for it.

I would not want to disturb the IP scheme already in place using the IEC
60529 for Ingress Protection (IP).  No marking is already established as
meaning inadequate IP.

There will be no improvement in understanding between the symbol and the IP
marking because the use of one excludes the use of the other - or am I
missing something?

I am essentially satisfied - remembering that my experience is almost all
limited to ITE and electronic sub-assemblies where someone following me is
concerned with the enclosure.

I am also in agreement with Rich Nute's earlier comment, "So, it would seem
to me that outdoor products should be identified; if not specifically
identified for outdoor use, then the product is for indoor use."


Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC
27109 Palmetto Drive
Orange Beach, AL
36561 USA

tel ++ 1 251 981 6786
fax ++ 1 251 981 3054
Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648

From: John Woodgate 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)


>
> I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken  wrote (in
> <002701c2b402$6a322280$218066d1@default>) about 'strange symbols (to me
> anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003:
> >John, I didn't word that part very well.
> >
> >I don't know when the "indoor use only" SYMBOL came into use; that could
be
> >recently.
> >
> >I should have said the only justification I could find for using it, to
> >satisfy a requirement in a standard, was eliminated in CEE transformer
> >standards about 40 years ago.
>
> OK, That's clear now. My understanding of the proposal to include the
> 'house' symbol in IEC 60417 is that, even if the meaning of the symbol
> is not wholly self-evident, it is more likely to be understood than the
> current official designations like 'IP31' or 'IP40'.
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go
to
> http://www.isce.org.uk
> PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Ronald R. Wellman  wrote
(in <5.1.0.14.2.20030105073019.009f5...@pop.registeredsite.com>) about
'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sun, 5 Jan 2003:

>Remember that we are trying to establish the origin of this "for indoor 
>use" symbol and whether it is really necessary to use it to meet some 
>regulatory or third party requirement. Actual observance and understanding 
>of the symbol is another issue, regardless if it is alphanumeric or iconic. 
>My reference to necessity is only to point out that there is something 
>currently in place that is being used internationally in place of this symbol.

I think maybe we have been snipping too much. MY reference is to the
reason the symbol was proposed for inclusion in IEC 60417 - that it is
less incomprehensible to the general public than an IP number.

Maybe the proposal came from a country that doesn't use the Latin
alphabet, whose citizens would have even more trouble understanding
'IP'?

It does seem to be so that it is not called up in any IEC safety
standard, BUT that would be because it ISN'T (yet?) in IEC 60417. IEC
SC3C can take an awful long time to accept a symbol and standardize it.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Ronald R. Wellman]

Hello John,

Remember that we are trying to establish the origin of this "for indoor 
use" symbol and whether it is really necessary to use it to meet some 
regulatory or third party requirement. Actual observance and understanding 
of the symbol is another issue, regardless if it is alphanumeric or iconic. 
My reference to necessity is only to point out that there is something 
currently in place that is being used internationally in place of this symbol.

Best regards,
Ron Wellman

At 09:02 PM 1/4/2003 +, John Woodgate wrote:

>I read in !emc-pstc that Ronald R. Wellman  wrote
>(in <5.1.0.14.2.20030104081733.009f2...@pop.registeredsite.com>) about
>'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003:
>
> >Many safety standards are now making reference to
> >IP numbers, so this "for indoor use" marking is unnecessary by present day
> >standards.
>
>But will your elderly aunt understand what 'IP30' means? (Don't tell me,
>she's a Supreme Court judge, of course.) (;-)
>--
>Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
>Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
>http://www.isce.org.uk
>PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
>
>---
>This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken  wrote (in
<002701c2b402$6a322280$218066d1@default>) about 'strange symbols (to me
anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003:
>John, I didn't word that part very well.
>
>I don't know when the "indoor use only" SYMBOL came into use; that could be
>recently.
>
>I should have said the only justification I could find for using it, to
>satisfy a requirement in a standard, was eliminated in CEE transformer
>standards about 40 years ago.

OK, That's clear now. My understanding of the proposal to include the
'house' symbol in IEC 60417 is that, even if the meaning of the symbol
is not wholly self-evident, it is more likely to be understood than the
current official designations like 'IP31' or 'IP40'.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Ronald R. Wellman  wrote
(in <5.1.0.14.2.20030104081733.009f2...@pop.registeredsite.com>) about
'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003:

>Many safety standards are now making reference to 
>IP numbers, so this "for indoor use" marking is unnecessary by present day 
>standards.

But will your elderly aunt understand what 'IP30' means? (Don't tell me,
she's a Supreme Court judge, of course.) (;-)
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Ronald R. Wellman]

Hello Lou and Rich,

Thanks for investigating this. It appears that we are living with a very 
old German standard that can be better replaced by using IEC 60529 for 
Ingress Protection (IP). Many safety standards are now making reference to 
IP numbers, so this "for indoor use" marking is unnecessary by present day 
standards.

Best regards,
Ron Wellman

At 12:21 AM 1/4/2003 -0600, Lou Aiken wrote:

>For what it is worth I did a little research tonight.
>
>I have a copy of VDE 0550 part 1, dated 3.59.   :
>
>It makes no mention of the indoor use only symbol.  But is does show
>classifications for different types of enclosures using the water drop
>markings.  The "Protected Type" meaning with an enclosure but with no
>protection
>against water must have no drop symbol..
>
>However, the marking requirements in the same standard, state in part: With
>apparatus of " protected type" the words "Only for dry locations" shall be
>included.
>
>I looked at old copies of BS 3535 dated 1962, CEE 15 dated 1964, nor IEC 742
>dated 1983. There is no such requirement in any of those, for the text or
>the symbol. I don't have the latest transformer standard.
>
>It appears that the international transformer standards simply rely on the
>IP index
>ratings. No mark - don't let it get wet..
>
>I have seen the indoor use only symbol on many direct plug in sample
>transformer (destined for markets in Europe) and never on other appliances.
>I told vendors they could eliminate it if they wished because it was
>unnecessary.
>
>I suppose the VDE 0550 warning was a  requirement that the CEE considered
>unnecessary.
>
>My guess is that the symbol came into use (due to the
>translation requirement) and is still alive today even though the
>requirement for it disappeared about 40 years ago - at least in the
>transformer standards I have used.
>
>Hats off to John Barnes for locating the Japanese Jate Mark! 73's John.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC
>27109 Palmetto Drive
>Orange Beach, AL
>36561 USA
>
>tel ++ 1 251 981 6786
>fax ++ 1 251 981 3054
>Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648
>- Original Message -
>From: Rich Nute 
>To: 
>Cc: Product Safety Technical Committee 
>Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 5:25 PM
>Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
>
>
>
> >
> > Hi Gary:
> >
> >
> > As a result of searching for my copy of the
> > "indoor use only" symbol, I discovered that
> > I have a reference to the standard where the
> > symbol is published:
> >
> > DIN 30 600 Reg. No. 02808-3
> >
> > If one of our subscribers has a copy of this
> > standard, perhaps he could verify the
> > reference.  If possible, I'd like a copy of
> > the page that describes this symbol.
> >
> > (Or, we could post the copy to our new emc-
> > pstc web site for all to see.)
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Rich




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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Lou Aiken]

John, I didn't word that part very well.

I don't know when the "indoor use only" SYMBOL came into use; that could be
recently.

I should have said the only justification I could find for using it, to
satisfy a requirement in a standard, was eliminated in CEE transformer
standards about 40 years ago.

Regards, Lou

Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC
27109 Palmetto Drive
Orange Beach, AL
36561 USA

tel ++ 1 251 981 6786
fax ++ 1 251 981 3054
Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648

From: John Woodgate 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)


>
> I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken  wrote (in
> <002c01c2b3b9$77154700$8e8066d1@default>) about 'strange symbols (to me
> anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003:
>
> >My guess is that the symbol came into use (due to the
> >translation requirement) and is still alive today even though the
> >requirement for it disappeared about 40 years ago - at least in the
> >transformer standards I have used.
>
> I think the 'house' symbol is a NEW thing, not an old one from 40 years
> ago.
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go
to
> http://www.isce.org.uk
> PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
>
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
>  majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
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>
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>
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>  Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/
> Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken  wrote (in
<002c01c2b3b9$77154700$8e8066d1@default>) about 'strange symbols (to me
anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003:

>My guess is that the symbol came into use (due to the
>translation requirement) and is still alive today even though the
>requirement for it disappeared about 40 years ago - at least in the
>transformer standards I have used.

I think the 'house' symbol is a NEW thing, not an old one from 40 years
ago. 
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Lou Aiken]

For what it is worth I did a little research tonight.

I have a copy of VDE 0550 part 1, dated 3.59.   :

It makes no mention of the indoor use only symbol.  But is does show
classifications for different types of enclosures using the water drop
markings.  The "Protected Type" meaning with an enclosure but with no
protection
against water must have no drop symbol..

However, the marking requirements in the same standard, state in part: With
apparatus of " protected type" the words "Only for dry locations" shall be
included.

I looked at old copies of BS 3535 dated 1962, CEE 15 dated 1964, nor IEC 742
dated 1983. There is no such requirement in any of those, for the text or
the symbol. I don't have the latest transformer standard.

It appears that the international transformer standards simply rely on the
IP index
ratings. No mark - don't let it get wet..

I have seen the indoor use only symbol on many direct plug in sample
transformer (destined for markets in Europe) and never on other appliances.
I told vendors they could eliminate it if they wished because it was
unnecessary.

I suppose the VDE 0550 warning was a  requirement that the CEE considered
unnecessary.

My guess is that the symbol came into use (due to the
translation requirement) and is still alive today even though the
requirement for it disappeared about 40 years ago - at least in the
transformer standards I have used.

Hats off to John Barnes for locating the Japanese Jate Mark! 73's John.

Best Regards,

Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC
27109 Palmetto Drive
Orange Beach, AL
36561 USA

tel ++ 1 251 981 6786
fax ++ 1 251 981 3054
Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648

From: Rich Nute 
To: 
Cc: Product Safety Technical Committee 
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)


>
>
>
>
> Hi Gary:
>
>
> As a result of searching for my copy of the
> "indoor use only" symbol, I discovered that
> I have a reference to the standard where the
> symbol is published:
>
> DIN 30 600 Reg. No. 02808-3
>
> If one of our subscribers has a copy of this
> standard, perhaps he could verify the
> reference.  If possible, I'd like a copy of
> the page that describes this symbol.
>
> (Or, we could post the copy to our new emc-
> pstc web site for all to see.)
>
>
> Best regards,
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
>
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
>  majord...@ieee.org
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>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/
> Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
>




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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Wan Juang Foo]

John Barnes wrote on 01/04/03 07:55 AM
> If you go tohttp://www.cellotape.com/contents.pdfpage 9, is
> symbol 139 the one that is on your wireless unit?

Dear all,
Now we are getting somewhere.  Thanks John for pointing a symbol that does
finally somewhat fit the bill (description).

AFAIK, it should (note the language, it is not 'shall' ) be interpreted as
'Hazard: electrical shock from charged (or undischarged ) (high voltage ??)
capacitors'.

Can anyone else hazard a guess to the authority and origins of this symbol?

Just another of my 2 ¢ worth...

cheerio

Tim Foo






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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)-- Japanese Jate Mark

[John Barnes]

Dan,
http://www.bay-labels.com/agency_marks.htmnumber 44 is identified as
the "Japanese Jate Mark", from the Japan Approvals Institute for
Telecommunications Equipment.  It is a Telecommunications Terminal
Equipment Conformity mark-- see 
http://www.jate.or.jp/english/equipment/pdf/process.pdf

John Barnes
dBi Corporation


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Barnes]

Dan,
If you go tohttp://www.cellotape.com/contents.pdfpage 9, is
symbol 139 the one that is on your wireless unit?

They don't tell what the symbols mean in this design guide, but maybe
someone can recognize it now...

John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, ESDC Eng, SM IEEE
dBi Corporation
http://www.dbicorporation.com/


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Rich Nute]

Hi Gary:


As a result of searching for my copy of the 
"indoor use only" symbol, I discovered that
I have a reference to the standard where the
symbol is published:

DIN 30 600 Reg. No. 02808-3

If one of our subscribers has a copy of this
standard, perhaps he could verify the 
reference.  If possible, I'd like a copy of
the page that describes this symbol.  

(Or, we could post the copy to our new emc-
pstc web site for all to see.)  


Best regards,
Rich









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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute  wrote (in
<200301031730.jaa10...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com>) about 'strange symbols (to
me anyway)' on Fri, 3 Jan 2003:

>Since one of our members could not
>decipher the symbol, I question the
>value of the symbol to laymen and 
>therefore its inclusion in IEC 60417.

It's a characteristic shared with the vast majority of the symbols in
IEC60417. The only justification is that the alternative to using
symbols is worse - umpteen different versions with the advice and
warnings given, and controls labelled, in different languages.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Barnes]

Dan, Gary,
http://www.ksqlab.com/overseas/ove_bsmi.htm   briefly discusses the
Chinese National Standards and the CNS Mark, and shows two marks. 
Neither one of them looks like a C with a lightning bolt to me,
however...

http://www.ofco.com.tw/company.asp  shows the same two marks. Some other
web pages show the right hand mark, which I personally would interpret
as the "CNS Mark".  

http://www.weishin.com/a04.html shows the left hand mark on a Quality
Assurance certificate.

John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, ESDC Eng, SM IEEE
dBi Corporation
http://www.dbicorporation.com/


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RE: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Gary McInturff]

Thanks to all that have identified the first symbol as in-door use 
(what I
thought). So far no information on the other symbol, but I should have noted
that it wasn't on the power supply but another little wireless device. I tried
looking in the Wifi websites to see if they mentioned it but couldn't find it.
The user manual didn't identify it either.
I'm certain it is not the c-tick mark, but understand how a text 
description
of it might have led some to believe that. When I find it I'll let you know. 
Thanks again for you help (and thanks again for not getting rid of the
listserver)
Gary


From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 3:33 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)



I read in !emc-pstc that Wan Juang Foo  wrote (in
) about 'strange
symbols (to me anyway)' on Fri, 3 Jan 2003:
>I could not by any means to stretch my limited imagination to match the
>C-tick to the description offered.  I don't think that the C-tick mark
>readily fit the bill, unless there is some more information about this
>symbol that I do not know about.
>
>> bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a
>> capacitor with horizontal plates.
>Since there are no such a feature in the c-tick.  Can someone shed some
>more light on this?

These symbols are often very small, and the printing or moulding may be
subject to errors or distortions. For example, a continuous line may be
rendered with steps in it, and a wide line may degenerate to two thin
ones. 

It is also possible to find the occasional symbol which is intended to
deceive.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Rich Nute]

Hi John:


>   >It is not an ISO or IEC symbol.  
>   
>   It is either in IEC60417 already or will be in the future.

It is not currently in IEC 60417.

(I have no visibility as to future
adoption of this symbol into IEC
60417.)

Since one of our members could not
decipher the symbol, I question the
value of the symbol to laymen and 
therefore its inclusion in IEC 60417.


Best regards,
Rich






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RE: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Gary McInturff]

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 3:33 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)



I read in !emc-pstc that Wan Juang Foo  wrote (in
) about 'strange
symbols (to me anyway)' on Fri, 3 Jan 2003:
>I could not by any means to stretch my limited imagination to match the
>C-tick to the description offered.  I don't think that the C-tick mark
>readily fit the bill, unless there is some more information about this
>symbol that I do not know about.
>
>> bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a
>> capacitor with horizontal plates.
>Since there are no such a feature in the c-tick.  Can someone shed some
>more light on this?

These symbols are often very small, and the printing or moulding may be
subject to errors or distortions. For example, a continuous line may be
rendered with steps in it, and a wide line may degenerate to two thin
ones. 

It is also possible to find the occasional symbol which is intended to
deceive.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Dan Irish - Sun BOS Hardware]

All,

My apologies if this is message is a duplicate--
I think I replied only to Gary the first time...

I believe the second mark that Gary describes is the
new BSMI (Bureau of Standard & Measurement Insititute)
mark for the DoC and Type Approval processes.
I believe this is also known as the CNS mark.
See the BSMI web site:

www.bsmi.gov.tw/

I don't understand the capacitor symbol, though.
As someone else suggested, this may be a registration
number distorted by a small font.

Regards,
Dan

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> 
>   I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120 Vac 
> in, 
 12 Vdc out has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside the house. 
What is that symbol and whence did it come.
>   This one is going to be tough to describe, and is on a little wireless 
device.
>   A nearly closed "C". The upper half has a horizontal "lightning bolt" 
separating top and bottom. In the bottom portion of this symbol is what
appears 
to be a capacitor with horizontal plates. (both plates are represented by flat 
lines rather than 1 flat and one an arc).
>   Thanks
>   Gary
>   
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Ronald R. Wellman]

Hello all,

This particular "indoor use only" symbol has been discussed in this forum 
time and again. It would be useful to all of us to know who requires it and 
why. I would start with the power supply manufacturer to see if they truly 
know the reason for putting this symbol on their product because I have 
seen many wall warts and fat snakes without this symbol. It is my guess 
that this symbol is a left over from years past and no one has taken the 
time to remove it from their silk screens.

Best Regards,
Ron Wellman

At 05:56 PM 1/2/2003 -0800, Rich Nute wrote:




>Hi Gary:
>
>
> >   I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120 
> Vac in,  12 Vdc out has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside 
> the house. What is that symbol and whence did it come.
>
>The house with an arrow pointing into the house means
>"for indoor use."
>
> From my research on this one, I believe one of the
>German certification houses came up with the symbol.
>
>It is not an ISO or IEC symbol.  As far as I know, the
>symbol is not required by any safety standards.  But,
>it is required by some certification houses.
>
>Your not understanding the symbol demostrates that
>symbols are not a panacea for replacement of words.
>
>In my opinion, the "normal" placement of any product is
>indoors.  Products for use outdoors usually have lower
>leakage current, lower accessible voltage limits, and
>may be subject to more stringent enclosure -- IP --
>requirements.  So, it would seem to me that outdoor
>products should be identified; if not specifically
>identified for outdoor use, then the product is for
>indoor use.
>
>
>Best regards,
>Rich
>
>
>
>
>
>---
>This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
>Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
>Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Wan Juang Foo  wrote (in
) about 'strange
symbols (to me anyway)' on Fri, 3 Jan 2003:
>I could not by any means to stretch my limited imagination to match the
>C-tick to the description offered.  I don't think that the C-tick mark
>readily fit the bill, unless there is some more information about this
>symbol that I do not know about.
>
>> bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a
>> capacitor with horizontal plates.
>Since there are no such a feature in the c-tick.  Can someone shed some
>more light on this?

These symbols are often very small, and the printing or moulding may be
subject to errors or distortions. For example, a continuous line may be
rendered with steps in it, and a wide line may degenerate to two thin
ones. 

It is also possible to find the occasional symbol which is intended to
deceive.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff  wrote (in <917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40ac...@windlord.wwp.com
>) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Thu, 2 Jan 2003:
>   I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120 Vac
in,  
>12 Vdc out has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside the house.
What 
>is that symbol and whence did it come.

'Indoor use only'. It's in IEC60417 but I don't know the number.

>   This one is going to be tough to describe, and is on a little wireless 
>device.
>   A nearly closed "C". The upper half has a horizontal "lightning bolt" 
>separating top and bottom. In the bottom portion of this symbol is what
appears 
>to be a capacitor with horizontal plates. (both plates are represented by
flat 
>lines rather than 1 flat and one an arc).

I don't know that one, but the IEC/ISO capacitor symbol has parallel
plates; the symbol with one arcuate plate is a US divergence from the
international standards.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute  wrote (in
<200301030156.raa04...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com>) about 'strange symbols (to
me anyway)' on Thu, 2 Jan 2003:

>It is not an ISO or IEC symbol.  

It is either in IEC60417 already or will be in the future.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Wan Juang Foo]

Allen,
I could not by any means to stretch my limited imagination to match the
C-tick to the description offered.  I don't think that the C-tick mark
readily fit the bill, unless there is some more information about this
symbol that I do not know about.

> bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a
> capacitor with horizontal plates.
Since there are no such a feature in the c-tick.  Can someone shed some
more light on this?


Garry,
There are lots of C-tick symbols in the net.
http://www.tecom.com.au/ctick.htm
Is that the C symbol?

:-)

Tim Foo

Allen Kemevor  wrote on  01/03/03 11:25 AM
> The nearly closed "C" with a horizontal "lightning bolt"
> separating top and bottom appears to be a description
> of the Australian C-Tick mark.

"Gary McInturff"  wrote on 01/03/03
06:42 AM
> A nearly closed "C". The upper half has a horizontal
> "lightning bolt" separating top and bottom. In the
> bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a
> capacitor with horizontal plates. (both plates are
> represented by flat lines rather than 1 flat and one an arc).






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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Leslie Bai]

Gary, 


The symbol you described is to indicate "Indoor" or "Outdoor" use. If the
arrow points outside, it means "For outdoor use". If it points inside, it
means "For indoor use only". 


This house symbol is not an IEC recognized one but it IS required by some
countries for certain types of products, e.g. China CCC for power supply. 


For details of applicable products and countries, contact me off-line. 


Hope it helps. 


Leslie




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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Allen Kemevor]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
The nearly closed "C" with a horizontal "lightning bolt" separating top and
bottom appears to be a description of the Australian C-Tick mark.  I believe
it means the device complies with the Australian EMC requirements.
Allen

Gary McInturff wrote:

> I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120 Vac
in,  12 Vdc out has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside the
house. What is that symbol and whence did it come.
> This one is going to be tough to describe, and is on a little
wireless device.
> A nearly closed "C". The upper half has a horizontal "lightning
bolt" separating top and bottom. In the bottom portion of this symbol is what
appears to be a capacitor with horizontal plates. (both plates are represented
by flat lines rather than 1 flat and one an arc).
> Thanks
> Gary
>
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
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Title: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)






The nearly closed "C" with a horizontal "lightning bolt" separating top and bottom appears to be a description of the Australian C-Tick mark.  I believe it means the device complies with the Australian EMC requirements.

Allen


Gary McInturff wrote:


> I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120 Vac in,  12 Vdc out has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside the house. What is that symbol and whence did it come.

> This one is going to be tough to describe, and is on a little wireless device.

> A nearly closed "C". The upper half has a horizontal "lightning bolt" separating top and bottom. In the bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a capacitor with horizontal plates. (both plates are represented by flat lines rather than 1 flat and one an arc).

> Thanks

> Gary

>

>

> ---

> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety

> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.

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<>

Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Rich Nute]

Hi Gary:


>   I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120 Vac 
> in, 
12 Vdc out has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside the house.
What is that symbol and whence did it come.

The house with an arrow pointing into the house means
"for indoor use."

>From my research on this one, I believe one of the 
German certification houses came up with the symbol.  

It is not an ISO or IEC symbol.  As far as I know, the
symbol is not required by any safety standards.  But, 
it is required by some certification houses.

Your not understanding the symbol demostrates that 
symbols are not a panacea for replacement of words.

In my opinion, the "normal" placement of any product is
indoors.  Products for use outdoors usually have lower
leakage current, lower accessible voltage limits, and 
may be subject to more stringent enclosure -- IP --
requirements.  So, it would seem to me that outdoor
products should be identified; if not specifically 
identified for outdoor use, then the product is for 
indoor use.  


Best regards,
Rich






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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[John Barnes]

Gary,
The "house" symbol means indoor use only.  

John Barnes KS4GL, NCE, ESDC Eng, SM IEEE
dBi Corporation
http://www.dbicorporation.com/


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Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Ron Pickard]

Hi Gary,

For the symbol with the arrow pointing into the house, I would say that the
wall wart is intended to
be used indoors, not outdoors. As to the symbols origin, I have no idea. But,
you might want to
check out ISO7000. There's many, many symbols in my 1989 copy (many I'm sure
that you'd recognize)
and I'm sure that more have been added since then.

As for the "C" symbol, I have have no idea. However, let's wait and see if any
of our learned
colleagues might know.

IHTH.

Best regards,

Ron Pickard
rpick...@hypercom.com






  
  
  Gary.McInturff@worldwide
  
  packets.com To:  
emc-p...@ieee.org 
  
  Sent by:cc: 
  
  owner-emc-pstc@majordomo        Subject:  strange
symbols (to me anyway)
  
  .ieee.org   
  
  
  
  
  
  01/02/2003 03:42 PM 
  
  Please respond to   
  
  Gary.McInturff  
  
  
  
  
  





 I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120
Vac in,  12 Vdc out
has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside the house. What is that
symbol and whence did
it come.
 This one is going to be tough to describe, and is on a little
wireless device.
 A nearly closed "C". The upper half has a horizontal "lightning
bolt" separating top
and bottom. In the bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a
capacitor with horizontal
plates. (both plates are represented by flat lines rather than 1 flat and one
an arc).
 Thanks
 Gary



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strange symbols (to me anyway)

[Gary McInturff]

I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120 Vac 
in,  12
Vdc out has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside the house. What
is that symbol and whence did it come.
This one is going to be tough to describe, and is on a little wireless 
device.
A nearly closed "C". The upper half has a horizontal "lightning bolt"
separating top and bottom. In the bottom portion of this symbol is what
appears to be a capacitor with horizontal plates. (both plates are represented
by flat lines rather than 1 flat and one an arc).
Thanks
Gary



This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.

Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/

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with the single line:
 unsubscribe emc-pstc

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 Ron Pickard:  emc-p...@hypercom.com
 Dave Heald:   davehe...@attbi.com

For policy questions, send mail to:
 Richard Nute:   ri...@ieee.org
 Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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