Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
Jon, It doesn't switch from 1/10 to full-step, it morphs. It's not done with clocks and dividers, its done more in the analog side. That's the difference that Mariss adds. Anyone can built a microstepping drive. There are scores of application notes and open source designs. To do what Geckodrive does requires a bit of lateral thinking, and not just copy what is all ready out there. As to the advantage of fullstepping over micro-stepping, a full stepping gtive will provide more torque at higher speed. The reason that you run steppers at a voltage of up to 20 times the plated voltage is to get rapid current changes in the coils when they are reversed, allowing for higher speeds. When micro-stepping, the voltage changes are small. Cheers, Peter --- Peter Homann http://www.homanndesigns.com/store On Wed 02/05/12 1:28 PM , Jon Elson wrote:andy pugh wrote: On 1 May 2012 12:26, cogoman wrote: I don't see how they could switch from 1/10 to full step without letting LinuxCNC know, and having LinuxCNC reduce the number of steps being sent, unless they used a clock multiplier, which would make it look like full step to the control, I imagine it is an internal clock-divider, so at high speed it full-steps every N input pulses, and at low speed it microsteps every input pulse. I've always been very suspicious of this claim (that Geckos switch from microstepping to full steps at some speed). it seems totally unnecessary, and might be hard to do without causing some manner of glitch. What I think really happens is that at some speed the sinusoidal current command gets enough ahead of the motor's inductance that the winding current never reaches the current setpoint, and so the transistors naturally switch from chopping mode to regulate current to a mode where they are on for the half electrical cycle of that winding. I expect every microstepping chopper drive will do the same. In other words, the drive does this naturally due to the lag of the motor's inductance, and there is no special circuit at all to perform this function. And, the speed at which this happens is determined by the DC supply voltage and the motor inductance. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ [1] target=_blankhttp://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users [2] - Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ Links: -- [1] http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ [2] http://webmail.homanndesigns.com/parse.php?redirect=https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sprinter Easy Install tool for 3D Printer
most likely a scam, as the previous mail already stated. However, http://daid2.mine.nu/~daid/marlin_build/ is not. It is a compile farm for the Marlin firmware, which is obviously for 3d printing, but could also be abused in combination with a suitable electronics board for cnc stuff. Daid's project lowers the bar to use complicated software. I kind of like the idea, and think this concept of web-based configuration generators could be also interesting for linuxcnc. greetings, bernhard On 5/2/2012 12:13 AM, rob c wrote: For anyone interested in a simple install tool for a open source 3D printer try http://whatisacnc.com/sprinter/ It is a little unrelated to EMC but figured someone maybe interested. I have been fooling around with a program for Arduino and will post a link to the program when finished, the goal is to have Arduino work with EMC or Mach3 without the need for any other IC's or boards, simply plug the Arduino into the computer after attaching some drivers to the Micro-Processor and do the rest in Mach3. For now we have an install tool for any Atmega board used to run a 3D printer, updates are ongoing and a new version will be made available mid month (May 2012) everyone who has registered will be supplied a copy immediatly after launch, again for anyone interested please check out http://whatisacnc.com/sprinter/ Thanks Rob http://www.whatisacnc.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
Better to hear from Mariss himself. - It's a give and take kind of situation: 1) For the same peak current, a microstepped motor will have 71% (1/sqrt 2) the holding torque of a full-step drive. This is because motor torque is the vector sum of the phase currents. Advantage: Goes to full-steppers. 2) Most people want motors to turn, not just 'hold'. As soon a full-step driven motor turns, its torque drops to 65% of its holding torque. Where did the missing torque go? To resonating the motor is where. Motor mfgs sometimes specify 'dynamic torque'; this is specified at 5 full steps per second. It is always between 60 to 65% of holding torque. Not mentioned is the horrible racket the motor makes at 5 full steps per second. Microstepped motors do not resonate at low speeds, so no torque is invested in resonance. Microstepped motors keep all their holding torque while turning slowly. 65% for full-steppers, 71% for microsteppers. Advantage: By a hair (6%), goes to microsteppers. 3) Things get a little dicy as speed increases. Microstepping ceases to have any benefit above 3 to 4 revolutions per second. The motor is now turning fast enough to not respond to the start-stop nature of full steps. You can say the step pulse rate is above the mechanical low-pass frequency limit (100Hz or so) of the motor. Motion becomes smooth either way. Simple drives persist in microstepping anyway above this speed. This means they still try to make the motor phase currents sine and cosine past this speed. A little problem with that and it's called 'area under the curve'. The area under the sine function (0 to 180 degrees) is only 78% of a square wave (full-step). Advantage: Goes to full-step again. More sophisticated drives transition from a sine-cosine currents to square-wave quadrature currents about then. Same as full-steppers. Advantage: Draw. 4) As speed increases even more, another really big problem crops up; mid-band resonance. This is the bane of full-steppers and microsteppers alike. Maybe you have experienced it; the motor is turning 5 to 15 revs per second when you hear a descending growing sound from the motor and then it stalls for no good reason at all. Faster it's OK, slower it's OK, but not OK in that range. All you know is there is a big notch in the speed-torque curve. This mid-band instability, or parametric resonance. Simple drives have no defense against this except to try not run the motor in this speed range. Better drives have circuitry to suppress this phenomena and it involves rate damping. This is the equivalent of shock absorbers (rate dampers) on a car, without them a car bounces repeatedly. Imagine a washboard road surface in sync with this bounce; there would be sparks flying from the undercarriage in short order. With rate dampers the 'bounce' is suppressed to a single cycle. Mid-band compensation does the same with steppers. 5) More than any other type of motor, step motor performance is tied to the kind of drive connected to it. More than any other type motor, a stepper can be driven from very simple drives (full-step unipolar L/R) to very complex ones (microstepping full-bridge bipolar synchronous PWM mid-band compensated). - Cheers, Peter On 2/05/2012 1:28 PM, Jon Elson wrote: andy pugh wrote: On 1 May 2012 12:26, cogomancogo...@optimum.net wrote: I don't see how they could switch from 1/10 to full step without letting LinuxCNC know, and having LinuxCNC reduce the number of steps being sent, unless they used a clock multiplier, which would make it look like full step to the control, I imagine it is an internal clock-divider, so at high speed it full-steps every N input pulses, and at low speed it microsteps every input pulse. I've always been very suspicious of this claim (that Geckos switch from microstepping to full steps at some speed). it seems totally unnecessary, and might be hard to do without causing some manner of glitch. What I think really happens is that at some speed the sinusoidal current command gets enough ahead of the motor's inductance that the winding current never reaches the current setpoint, and so the transistors naturally switch from chopping mode to regulate current to a mode where they are on for the half electrical cycle of that winding. I expect every microstepping chopper drive will do the same. In other words, the drive does this naturally due to the lag of the motor's inductance, and there is no special circuit at all to perform this function. And, the speed at which this happens is determined by the DC supply voltage and the motor inductance. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat
[Emc-users] Errors when compiling kinematics
Hi, I changed genhexkins for my 3 axis platform. It's pretty simple, inverse kins only, forward to be done. It is compiled and works well on simulator. But on realtime PC it compiles with lot of errors, and I can't identify the source. There's obviuosly some error in genhexkins, whish causes those errors in other modules (with original genhexkins it compiles OK). This is the master, I also tried earlier version - less errors, but it won't compile too. Lost two days fighting this... please give me a clue. All files attached. Thanks. Andrew pkm@pkm-desktop:~/linuxcnc-dev/src$ make make: Entering directory `/home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src' copying shared configs /usr/bin/python modsilent.py make KBUILD_EXTRA_SYMBOLS=/usr/realtime-2.6.32-122-rtai/modules/Module.symvers -C /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai SUBDIRS=`pwd` CC=gcc V=0 modules make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai' CC [M] /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.o command-line: warning: _FORTIFY_SOURCE redefined command-line: warning: this is the location of the previous definition In file included from include/linux/kernel.h:15, from include/linux/sched.h:54, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/rtapi/rtapi.h:208, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: include/linux/bitops.h:108: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before numeric constant In file included from include/linux/kernel.h:16, from include/linux/sched.h:54, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/rtapi/rtapi.h:208, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: include/linux/log2.h: In function ‘__roundup_pow_of_two’: include/linux/log2.h:63: error: implicit declaration of function ‘fls_long’ In file included from /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/processor.h:21, from /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/thread_info.h:22, from include/linux/thread_info.h:56, from include/linux/preempt.h:9, from include/linux/spinlock.h:50, from include/linux/seqlock.h:29, from include/linux/time.h:8, from include/linux/timex.h:56, from include/linux/sched.h:56, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/rtapi/rtapi.h:208, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/msr.h: At top level: /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/msr.h:23: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before numeric constant /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/msr.h:24: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘u32’ /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/msr.h:263: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before numeric constant /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/msr.h:264: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before numeric constant /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/msr.h:267: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before numeric constant /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/msr.h:268: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before numeric constant In file included from /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/processor.h:22, from /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/thread_info.h:22, from include/linux/thread_info.h:56, from include/linux/preempt.h:9, from include/linux/spinlock.h:50, from include/linux/seqlock.h:29, from include/linux/time.h:8, from include/linux/timex.h:56, from include/linux/sched.h:56, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/rtapi/rtapi.h:208, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/desc_defs.h:32: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before numeric constant /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/desc_defs.h:33: warning: no semicolon at end of struct or union In file included from /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/thread_info.h:22, from include/linux/thread_info.h:56, from include/linux/preempt.h:9, from include/linux/spinlock.h:50, from include/linux/seqlock.h:29, from include/linux/time.h:8, from include/linux/timex.h:56, from include/linux/sched.h:56, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/rtapi/rtapi.h:208, from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.32-122-rtai/arch/x86/include/asm/processor.h: In function ‘get_debugctlmsr_on_cpu’:
Re: [Emc-users] Errors when compiling kinematics
2012/5/2 Andrew parallel.kinemat...@gmail.com: There's obviuosly some error in genhexkins, whish causes those errors in other modules (with original genhexkins it compiles OK). From the error message I understand that it does not like 2 lines: line nr. 94 - this line is repeated at least 4 times: from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: and also line 95 - mentioned 3 times: from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: I am on windows machine now, notepad shows all the code in one straight line, so I cannot determine, which is line 94 and 95. Viesturs -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Errors when compiling kinematics
2012/5/2 Viesturs Lācis viesturs.la...@gmail.com From the error message I understand that it does not like 2 lines: line nr. 94 - this line is repeated at least 4 times: from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: and also line 95 - mentioned 3 times: from /home/pkm/linuxcnc-dev/src/emc/kinematics/genhexkins.c:94: I am on windows machine now, notepad shows all the code in one straight line, so I cannot determine, which is line 94 and 95. Hi, Viesturs! These lines just include realtime modules #include rtapi.h /* RTAPI realtime OS API */ #include rtapi_app.h /* RTAPI realtime module decls */ I don't get what can be wrong... in original genhexkins all OK with exactly the same lines. Andrew -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Errors when compiling kinematics
On 2 May 2012 13:39, Andrew parallel.kinemat...@gmail.com wrote: #include rtapi.h /* RTAPI realtime OS API */ #include rtapi_app.h /* RTAPI realtime module decls */ My first thought was that the includes were not being found, but they clearly are, looking at the errors. When you get that sort of mess it normally indicates that either there is a grammar error in an include file (or around the #include statement) or that some macro definition has over-written something with nonsense. Looking in your genhexkins.h file I can't help feeling that: #define l 200 looks like a disaster waiting to happen. I think that subsititution will be used in any downstream file... -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Errors when compiling kinematics
2012/5/2 andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com Looking in your genhexkins.h file I can't help feeling that: #define l 200 looks like a disaster waiting to happen. I think that subsititution will be used in any downstream file... Exactly! Thank you, Andy! I'm generally far from programming, particularly C++. And using trial-and-error method happens to take much time, like this case. It will be a good lesson for me, how-to-name-my-variables. Andrew -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Something for the 3D printer
http://whatisacnc.com/sprinter a simple install bundle for a windows system. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Errors when compiling kinematics
2012/5/2 Andrew parallel.kinemat...@gmail.com I changed genhexkins for my 3 axis platform. It's pretty simple, inverse kins only, forward to be done. Pity, it won't compile for realtime without forward kinematics. Though it worked on simulator. Have to program the forward now... Andrew -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Trajectory planning and other topics from a EMC(LinuxCNC) newbie (TheNewbie)
High speed interpolation for micro-line trajectory and adaptive real-time look-ahead scheme in CNC machining http://www.mmrc.iss.ac.cn/~xgao/papernc/2011-scichina-1.pdf Joachim -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
Peter wrote: Jon, It doesn't switch from 1/10 to full-step, it morphs. It's not done with clocks and dividers, its done more in the analog side. That's the difference that Mariss adds. Anyone can built a microstepping drive. There are scores of application notes and open source designs. To do what Geckodrive does requires a bit of lateral thinking, and not just copy what is all ready out there. Oh, I agree, when it comes to thinking outside the box and simplifying what everybody else does the complicated way, Mariss is quite amazing! As to the advantage of fullstepping over micro-stepping, a full stepping gtive will provide more torque at higher speed. The reason that you run steppers at a voltage of up to 20 times the plated voltage is to get rapid current changes in the coils when they are reversed, allowing for higher speeds. When micro-stepping, the voltage changes are small. It just seems to me that when the motor inductance causes the winding current to lag behind the current command from the microstep sine wave, the current control logic will automatically become the same as a full-step drive, with no special function at all required. But, I admit, I have not extracted the schematic of the drive to figure out if there is anything extra there. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Live Config
This is hard to explain without looking at the screen. IF you choose to machine config in EMC 2.6 you are able to change and test the axis values while EMC is open. My Y axis is missing the input box to change the resolution. I would like to find out how to add and remove the input boxes for this area. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
Peter Homann wrote: Better to hear from Mariss himself. snip Simple drives persist in microstepping anyway above this speed. This means they still try to make the motor phase currents sine and cosine past this speed. A little problem with that and it's called 'area under the curve'. The area under the sine function (0 to 180 degrees) is only 78% of a square wave (full-step). Advantage: Goes to full-step again. More sophisticated drives transition from a sine-cosine currents to square-wave quadrature currents about then. Same as full-steppers. Advantage: Draw. Well, without anything to modify the wave, at some point the winding current turns into a triangle wave. Now, maybe the Gecko does this transition to square-wave at a lower speed than where the triangle-wave current appears. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 10:19 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: ... snip It just seems to me that when the motor inductance causes the winding current to lag behind the current command from the microstep sine wave, the current control logic will automatically become the same as a full-step drive, with no special function at all required. But, I admit, I have not extracted the schematic of the drive to figure out if there is anything extra there. Jon I suspect the magic is in the Xilinx chip programming, so we'll probably never know what the magic is. I'd like to play with a couple of Pico PWM amps on one of my Shizuoka steppers and drive them with FPGA PWM. There would not be any current feedback to work with unless I add a pair of ADC's though. On the other hand it might be more productive to start work on fitting some brushless motors. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Paths to G-code
On 5/1/2012 2:00 PM, craig wrote: A number of discussions have addressed software tools to generate G-code mostly as part of another discussion.. 1. Some of us are interested in starting from various mechanical CAD programs and file formats. 2. Some of us are starting from existing graphics in various formats. 3. Some of us build our own tools to generate it from mathematical formulas. 4. Some of us build our own tools to generate it form our own simple graphics. 5. some of us want tools to help us write, edit and debug the g-code. 6. Some of us are routing circuit boards starting form PCB other layout programs. We use a variety of existing programs and languages to do these things. Sometimes several tools are needed. A map of existing tools to get to g-code from various starting points would be useful. If not a map then at least a collecting most such information in one place would be useful. ... Interesting, Craig. I've been thinking along the same lines, although my interest runs mostly to your point 1 (and a bit of 2.) and I'm mostly interested in 3D but I certainly see the need for 2D. While reviewing the Wiki (see my previous crabbing about its organization) it seemed to me that this could be information to be added to and rearranged with the existing material about g-code generators, GWiz, and NGCGUI. The current CAM wiki-entry is an unwieldy laundry list. Like you, I'm interested in getting from point A (some CAD file format) to point B (g-code) via various routes. For me, point A might be a file in IGES or STEP or DXF or STL, etc., format. Perhaps I created it or perhaps it has been given to me. As an old data-exchange standards man, I'm also interested in the nuances of the data, since many of these formats can accommodate different representations of 3D data which impose different constraints on what can be done with them. Like you, I was thinking of a table or map as the basis of a selection guide, but I think it has to be backed up by fuller explanations and caveats in text and possibly pictures. As a start I've been building a spreadsheet of different programs/tools and the various formats they can open, import, convert, export, and/or save. At the moment, it runs to a dozen packages and several dozen formats (this cacophony of formats is probably more interesting to me than everybody else). I'm not a open-source purist. I use whatever tool works for me. I am, however, a retiree and hobbyist, so the programs have to be free or at least as cheap as beer. Hence, the programs I'm looking at include open-source software explicitly covered by GPL or equivalent and also closed-source software that comes with an explicit free-to-use statement that covers hobbyists like me. I also do not demand that the programs run in Linux although that is a bonus. As I get time, I'm testing whether I can get the programs that are distributed only for Windows to also run in Linux. It may be unfair, but I am arbitrarily excluding programs that appear to be dead (no development within the last three or four years, say) unless it is really good at something I want to do. Since I believe in Ronald Reagan's dictum---Trust but Verify---and also because I'm interested in how these different programs work, I am taking the approach of using them to create a model of a simple part that I could knock out on my mill (a mounting plate for a NEMA-23 stepper motor unless I get a better idea) and then passing the result through various file format/software paths to g-code. Much of our daytime is spent keeping Medicare in business but stress keeps me awake at night so I've been slowly accumulating information. It's safer to work with software than machinery when tired. Here's a partial list of CAD programs and tools I'm looking at. I do not claim expertise in driving all these different programs. It's a test of its developer's skills to see if a duffer like me can pick up an new program and create a simple part in it. -Open source: BRLCAD (this isn't really a starter for me but it was created by fellow feds; lack of good data-exchange mechanisms is a bigger buzz-killer than its user interface), FreeCAD, gCAD3D, HeeksCAD/HeeksCAM (probably a dry hole now), MeshLab, OpenSCAD, SALOME, Blender (not really CAD even with the now comatose CAD-plugin project but has its uses) -Closed source: Autodesk 123D, AutoCAD WS, Google Sketchup, PTC CreoElements/Direct Modelling Express, MecSoft VisualCAD, Babel3D (fee-per-translation service) Obviously, I haven't included 2D-only software like InkScape, LibreCAD, progeCAD, and DS DraftSight, of which there are a bunch. I've also excluded 3D-capable programs like Alibre Design EXP and CAD Schroer MEDUSA4 Personal that have crippled model-export capability. My list of CAM programs is much shorter, but with my approach model-creation software comes first. -Open source: PyCAM (there is a growing number of STL-to-g-code
[Emc-users] Time delay on resume
Hi all, I have a tangential tool application with a pneumatically controlled 2 position Z axis. Thus I control the head up / head down, directly with digital I/O. I also have the head coming up and turning off automatically on a pause, stop or fault. That is all working fine. The one thing I have not figured out is how to introduce a delay (i.e. timedelay) on resume to give the head sufficient time to lower and turn on before motion resumes. I do not see pins on halui or motion for example, which would be usable for this function. Any suggestions? Thanks, Eric -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
On 5/2/2012 11:45 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote: On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 10:19 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: ... snip It just seems to me that when the motor inductance causes the winding current to lag behind the current command from the microstep sine wave, the current control logic will automatically become the same as a full-step drive, with no special function at all required. But, I admit, I have not extracted the schematic of the drive to figure out if there is anything extra there. Jon I suspect the magic is in the Xilinx chip programming, so we'll probably never know what the magic is. I'd like to play with a couple of Pico PWM ... Thanks to all on the lively conversation. It's obvious I should consider these features when I finally spring for drives with higher current and voltage ceilings after I replace my aging, eBay-special, removed-from-equipment PacSci motors mañana. Through the wonders of Google search I see there have been papers published on the topic of electronic damping. They may well explain the magic Kirk refers to, but they don't mean anything to me since I don't access to the inner workings of the drive. Thanks again. Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Time delay on resume
you could try setting motion.feed-hold to true until ready to continue -m Am 02.05.2012 um 19:05 schrieb Eric H. Johnson: Hi all, I have a tangential tool application with a pneumatically controlled 2 position Z axis. Thus I control the head up / head down, directly with digital I/O. I also have the head coming up and turning off automatically on a pause, stop or fault. That is all working fine. The one thing I have not figured out is how to introduce a delay (i.e. timedelay) on resume to give the head sufficient time to lower and turn on before motion resumes. I do not see pins on halui or motion for example, which would be usable for this function. Any suggestions? Thanks, Eric -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] the state of the Wiki
On 4/27/2012 6:59 PM, cogoman wrote: for section 2 Getting Started. I have not yet gotten too far with CAD/CAM to generate gcode, but I have a suggestion to run up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes. I suggest we select 2 CAD/CAM solutions to include on the CD, with special support in the wiki. One would allow complex things to be done (with it's steep learning curve), and one would be simple and easy, so as to have a short learning curve. I (selfishly) suggest we use blender for the complicated one (since I have a project that will require multiple parts to be attached having only axes in common). I have used GSimple to make some parts, but I recently found that LibreOffice Draw allows me to draw to scale. I have printed out a drill guide for center punching the location of holes in an orderly manner on a wooden project and the printout was practically to scale. Though I haven't tried it, Draw claims to be able to export to Scaled Vector Graphics (.SVG), and in the wiki the CAM plugin for blender is supposed to work off of the .SVG file. PyCAM is supposed to work with .SVG, so we might only need to cover instructions on using one CAM solution for both the easy and the hard. These two CAD/CAM solutions would get special emphasis on the wiki to get people up and running quicker, and these wiki pages would also be included on the CD. I know the CD is already nearly full, but I suspect we could make room for these, and if not, we could remaster it as a DVD with these tools and their necessary tutorials. Perhaps if a DVD is required, we could include video tutorials to further help out. On 04/27/2012 01:26 PM, Kent A. Reed wrote: Section 2. Hardware Requirements needs work to bring it up to current technology, both in terms of LinuxCNC and in terms of platforms. Since the following subsection LinuxCNC Supported Hardware also uses the word Hardware but in the sense of interfaces, I think it would be useful to choose the title Computer Requirements instead. LinuxCNC Supported Hardware is probably as good as it gets given the flux in the marketplace. Latency Test is a conundrum for me. I can't figure whether it would be better to sort it on brandname or on date of the system. Right now the table seems a mixture of top posting, bottom posting, and alphabetical posting. Still, I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Why not have a few pages with the data sorted different ways, and links at the top of the pages so each points to each of the others, and the back link of all 3 of 4 pointing back to the wiki main page? Sorry I overlooked your reply 'til now, cogoman. This is an interesting idea and one that could easily dovetail with my musings of a few minutes ago. I don't know about space availability on the current CD and going this route would impose additional work on those who have to create and test the CD master, but packaged it separately seems dead easy. It seems to me the first thing is to put up example approaches on the wiki and if they gain traction then make them available via an automated distribution mechanism, whether the package repository approach or a CD/DVC image. Just my 2cents worth. Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Time delay on resume
2012/5/2 Eric H. Johnson ejohn...@camalytics.com: The one thing I have not figured out is how to introduce a delay (i.e. timedelay) on resume to give the head sufficient time to lower and turn on before motion resumes. I do not see pins on halui or motion for example, which would be usable for this function. Any suggestions? I think that You can try also motion.spindle-at-speed pin - turn it true (manually or through some HAL logics or whatever), when machine is ready, until then it will just wait for that to happen. Viesturs -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
Hi Kirk, The answer is below. Mariss, puts a lot into the public domain. That way it's prior art if anyone tries to patent it. --- The drive generates a reference voltage proportional to speed. This voltage is sensed by an offset/gain circuit that becomes linear (from 0V) at 4 revs a sec and goes non-linear again (clamps at 3.3V) at 6 revs a second. It's output analog ORs with the sine-cosine reference. The sine-cosine reference is always there, it is simply swamped by the ORed full-step morph signal. So big deal, decel to zero instantly. 2 milliseconds later the reference reverts from full-step to sin-cos. Enjoy the 141% torque bump while it lasts for the 2mS. It's all analog.:-) -- Cheers, Peter On 3/05/2012 1:45 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote: On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 10:19 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: ... snip It just seems to me that when the motor inductance causes the winding current to lag behind the current command from the microstep sine wave, the current control logic will automatically become the same as a full-step drive, with no special function at all required. But, I admit, I have not extracted the schematic of the drive to figure out if there is anything extra there. Jon I suspect the magic is in the Xilinx chip programming, so we'll probably never know what the magic is. I'd like to play with a couple of Pico PWM amps on one of my Shizuoka steppers and drive them with FPGA PWM. There would not be any current feedback to work with unless I add a pair of ADC's though. On the other hand it might be more productive to start work on fitting some brushless motors. -- - eStore: http://www.homanndesigns.com/store Web : http://www.homanndesigns.com ModIO - Modbus Interface Unit email : pe...@homanndesigns.com DigiSpeed - Isolated 10Vdc I/F Phone : +61 421 601 665 TurboTaig - Taig Mill Upgrade board -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] MDI losing queue buffer
Andy P., you said on IRC that it was a long time needed bugfix that took away the ability to type ahead while doing things in the MDI mode. I hope you measure long time in years because I've been using that feature for much of a decade. Having a tool stop at the end of the current MDI command, sitting there polishing the metal, or squeaking like hell, potentially breaking a $15 insert because you can't type another command till the current one is done makes it extremely hard on expensive tooling and may actually damage the workpiece. I've done the latter 2 times in the last week myself. I see by the irc channel that I am not the only one to consider that 'bug' an extremely useful feature. Can you restore that feature without restoring what ever buglet it was? Can this so-called bug, and what it caused be described? Thanks Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Being Ymor's right-hand man was like being gently flogged to death with scented bootlaces. -- Terry Pratchett, The Colour of Magic -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
Kirk Wallace wrote: I suspect the magic is in the Xilinx chip programming, so we'll probably never know what the magic is. The G201A and some other drives from years ago used CD4000 CMOS chips and had all this. Those drives could be deciphered fairly easily. I'd like to play with a couple of Pico PWM amps on one of my Shizuoka steppers and drive them with FPGA PWM. There would not be any current feedback to work with unless I add a pair of ADC's though. On the other hand it might be more productive to start work on fitting some brushless motors. Well, just find the motor you want and I have amps for either. It is a lot simpler to not have current feedback, but that makes the servo loop a little less stable. The fix is to have more encoder resolution, and possibly turn up the servo update rate. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
Jon, IIRC correctly the pre CPLD drives did not have full step morphing. Also the new drives have a much improved recirculation sequencing. This means that heat sinking requirements for the drives are greatly reduced. Also the advantage of the CPLD design is that it makes it harder to reverse engineer the drives, as the Chinese did with the old one some years ago Cheers, Peter On 3/05/2012 11:17 AM, Jon Elson wrote: The G201A and some other drives from years ago used CD4000 CMOS chips and had all this. Those drives could be deciphered fairly easily. Jon -- - eStore: http://www.homanndesigns.com/store Web : http://www.homanndesigns.com ModIO - Modbus Interface Unit email : pe...@homanndesigns.com DigiSpeed - Isolated 10Vdc I/F Phone : +61 421 601 665 TurboTaig - Taig Mill Upgrade board -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] MDI losing queue buffer
Gene, please read the mail pertaining to your report which I just posted on emc-developers. I strongly oppose 'restoring this feature'. Unless a proper solution is implemented, this means restoring a bug which is just waiting to get somebody into real trouble. There is a reason the bugfix is there, and it is not about killing a popular feature. For further reference on the issue, I formally ask you again to file a bug report. There is a reason for doing so - retaining history. - Michael Am 03.05.2012 um 03:05 schrieb gene heskett: Andy P., you said on IRC that it was a long time needed bugfix that took away the ability to type ahead while doing things in the MDI mode. I hope you measure long time in years because I've been using that feature for much of a decade. Having a tool stop at the end of the current MDI command, sitting there polishing the metal, or squeaking like hell, potentially breaking a $15 insert because you can't type another command till the current one is done makes it extremely hard on expensive tooling and may actually damage the workpiece. I've done the latter 2 times in the last week myself. I see by the irc channel that I am not the only one to consider that 'bug' an extremely useful feature. Can you restore that feature without restoring what ever buglet it was? Can this so-called bug, and what it caused be described? Thanks Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Being Ymor's right-hand man was like being gently flogged to death with scented bootlaces. -- Terry Pratchett, The Colour of Magic -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] MDI losing queue buffer
On Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:24:12 PM Michael Haberler did opine: Gene, please read the mail pertaining to your report which I just posted on emc-developers. I am not on the devel list, was 3-4 years back till I got it figured out that I didn't, and couldn't, speak the level of math you folks do. Where can I read the archives, and approximately when? I strongly oppose 'restoring this feature'. Unless a proper solution is implemented, this means restoring a bug which is just waiting to get somebody into real trouble. There is a reason the bugfix is there, and it is not about killing a popular feature. Ok, but how much trouble, in terms of code, is putting that back in. And what do you call real trouble? Perhaps it has happened to me and I just did a reboot without reporting the problem. For further reference on the issue, I formally ask you again to file a bug report. There is a reason for doing so - retaining history. Where? I was ignored on IRC when I asked where I should post the logs from setting debug=7FFF. So I have done nothing with that file, although I should rename it so its not destroyed the next time I start it after resetting debug=0, which I haven't done yet. Thanks Cheers Michael, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Do not underestimate the value of print statements for debugging. Don't have aesthetic convulsions when using them, either. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Electronic damping of stepper mid-band resonance, was Re: Drive Tuning
On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 20:17 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: Kirk Wallace wrote: I suspect the magic is in the Xilinx chip programming, so we'll probably never know what the magic is. The G201A and some other drives from years ago used CD4000 CMOS chips and had all this. Those drives could be deciphered fairly easily. I'd like to play with a couple of Pico PWM amps on one of my Shizuoka steppers and drive them with FPGA PWM. There would not be any current feedback to work with unless I add a pair of ADC's though. On the other hand it might be more productive to start work on fitting some brushless motors. Well, just find the motor you want and I have amps for either. It is a lot simpler to not have current feedback, but that makes the servo loop a little less stable. The fix is to have more encoder resolution, and possibly turn up the servo update rate. Jon Other than my servo comment, I meant that I could try to drive my stepper motor with a pair of amps and feed the amps signals that produce the equivalent output of a micro-stepping drive. Only more flexible because the micro-stepping logic is in a LinuxCNC driver. Maybe, one could add a feature to micro-step on encoder pulses. Peter, thanks for the overview of the Geckodrive stepper internal logic. Cool stuff. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Use EMC as stand alone DRO?
Can I Use EMC as stand alone DRO with a set of glass scales and an Everything IO interface board? If so, any suggestions on hardware and comfiguration. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Use EMC as stand alone DRO?
On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 21:35 -0600, Erik Green wrote: Can I Use EMC as stand alone DRO with a set of glass scales and an Everything IO interface board? If so, any suggestions on hardware and comfiguration. I have a page that has some fairly old information here: http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/dro_vfd/ If you have .0005 resolution scales, you could probably just use a parallel port and software (de)encoder component for the encoder input. The recently released GladeVCP and parts of LinuxCNC 2.5 may make for a better interface. Also, your scales will need to have quadrature (A, B, Z(Index)) outputs, or a converter may be needed. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
