Re: [Emc-users] Inkscape ?? g code tool quick and dirty for Gene

[linden]

I spent a week or so playing with inkscape and inkscape g code tools 
last month. It is not the most intuitive software to use but i ll give 
you the quick and dirty version

- Open your file in what ever format it is and try and use from the 
*Path* menu *Trace **Bitmap* . (I think you are getting this far and 
your computer is hanging)

-If that is the case go to the *File Menu* and then *Export Bitmap* 
instead. You can play with size and scale and all that jazz in the 
window that pops up i don’t worry to much about it as long as it is 
close. Save a bitmap version of your file.

- Open the bitmap file you just made with inkscape chose imbed file at 
the pop up

- Now *Trace Bitmap* the default settings should work and we will get a 
vector image over our bitmap image (if not you will have to read and 
play a little).

  All being well you can move on to the fun stuff.

- Add a layer*Layer**Menu* *Add Layer*

- Drag the  vector trace off the bitmap image. (any where just so we can 
see the 2 separate images)

- Now go to the *View Menu* -> *Display mode* -> *Outline* are original 
image should now be a box with a red x through it and our vector trace 
will just be lines with with no colour.

- Select the box with the red x and deleet it we dont need it any more 
we are only concerned with the vector tracing you may need to go back to 
*View Menu* -> *Display mode* -> *Normal* for it to show up and let you 
delete it

- Now select the complete vector trace *control X *to cut select the 
layer we made earler in the drop down menu on the bottom edge of the 
screen directly below the Text Menu

- Now *control v *to past wile we are here delete any other layers you 
have makes life easer later

- Drag the Vector trace to the middle of the worksheet or some where 
easy to work

- Now go to *extensions menu -> gcodetools* -> *orientation points *Set 
Z zero (i just leave it as 0 and touch off the surface of my stock)
we need to set Z depth (total depth we need to cut 1 inch or what ever 
the total depth will be we will set are depth for each pass latter

- Select inches or mm (probably do this first ;-)

- the other settings you can play with latter but the defaults should 
work for now

-  click apply and we are done here

*- extensions menu -> gcodetools* -> *tools library *select cylinder or 
cone and click apply

- this should put a square box with some defult settings on you work sheet

- select the box and drag it some where you can reed the settings we 
will have to change some as the defaults are 2 fast if you are using inches

- to edit settings open *Text menu -> Text and Fonts* -> *text *tab now 
click on the 400 in the feed rate and if you hold your tong just right 
and click lots it will open and 400 will be displayed in the*text* tab 
we can set it to 100 or what ever is needed for you machine click apply 
and ajust the other settings as needed.

Diameter of tool
Depth step = how deep we will cut with each pass
Tool Cange G code ie (M6 T1)

Last steps open*extensions menu -> gcodetools* -> *path to gcode* then
*Preferences *tab:
 -set file name
 -place to save file
 -z safe hight
 -post possessor round to 4 digits (can play with other setting next 
time)

*options* tab
 -leave defaults for now

*Path to gecode* tab
- check preview box
   -  leave rest as default

click apply and it will grind away for a wile and spit out a file with 
relevant g code and put some arrows on your drawing to show you witch 
way it desided to send the cutter round.

Hope this helps never did figure out how to do pocket or area with G 
code tools properly if some one has some scribble notes please share,
feel free to correct spelling typos and other blunders. I am using 
inkscape 0.48 but think it should work for older versions to

linden



**



On 14-11-08 12:40 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>   Greetings;
>
> The inkscape program can load and display this .eps file, looking about
> like the photographs of the parts it will make.
>
> However, any of the operations I would like it to, like edge detection as
> a first step toward the generation of the required gcode paths just sits
> there doing nothing for an hour or more after telling it to go do it.  And
> while the buttons are ghosted, indicating its busy, the whole thing slowly
> falls off the front page of an htop session watching the system.
>
> Is there some preliminary operation I have to do to select the area to
> scan before the potrace like utility can do its thing?
>
> I also have all of gcodetools installed, so I have a fairly lengthy list
> of things that can be done under the extensions menu, but they also appear
> to be inoperable, but do tie the inkscape session up, requiring I do a
> sudo kill inkscape to stop that, but again it it using zero cpu when its
> hung.
>
> So I an puzzled.  This is the inkscape V.48 in the 10.04.4 LTS repo's.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

-

Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[Ron Ginger]

On 11/8/2014 12:05 AM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
> On 7 November 2014 23:10, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
>> >This looks interesting, but I have no idea how well these dimmable T8
>> >LEDs work.
>> >http://www.ebay.com/itm/121227773225

I just bought 2 of these to try. I like the light output- it is hard to 
tell they are not florescent. However the ebay link is more than double 
the price I paid- mine were less than $20 each from 1000bulbs.com and 
they had some warm white for about $12.

I do not use a dimmer, so have no idea how they work. These lights do 
have a noticeable turn on time, maybe a second or two.

I like the energy saving part, so I will likely replace more in my shop 
as the old ones die.

ron ginger


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Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[John Thornton]

Coordinating an external E-Stop with LinuxCNC can be done with the 
ESTOP_LATCH component as described here:

http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/47-hal-examples/25861-external-e-stop

JT

On 11/7/2014 3:35 PM, Joe Hildreth wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> One more question.  If I wired it like my last email, then LinuxCNC would not 
> have any clue that I hit the external E-Stop.  Would it be benifitial to 
> bring the signal back in anyway, just to let the software know we killed it 
> externally?  Otherwise, I imagine that the software will continue to send 
> motion information and continue to plot like nothing ever happened.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[John Thornton]

I find it hard to beat T8 fluorescent bulbs at $2.50 each by the 10 pack 
with brighter color of 6500K and the same lumens of 2300... the only 
savings is 9 watts. I wonder how long it takes to pay back the $75 
difference at 9 watts?

JT

On 11/8/2014 6:30 AM, Ron Ginger wrote:
> On 11/8/2014 12:05 AM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
>> On 7 November 2014 23:10, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
 This looks interesting, but I have no idea how well these dimmable T8
 LEDs work.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/121227773225
> I just bought 2 of these to try. I like the light output- it is hard to
> tell they are not florescent. However the ebay link is more than double
> the price I paid- mine were less than $20 each from 1000bulbs.com and
> they had some warm white for about $12.
>
> I do not use a dimmer, so have no idea how they work. These lights do
> have a noticeable turn on time, maybe a second or two.
>
> I like the energy saving part, so I will likely replace more in my shop
> as the old ones die.
>
> ron ginger
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Friction Re: New refit

[Jon Elson]

On 11/07/2014 11:34 PM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> On 11/7/2014 8:39 AM, dave wrote:
>
>> IIUC cast to cast friction chews up a lot of power.
> Is there a way lube with molybdenum disulphide in it?
>
>
>
Actually, that may not make much difference.  I have moved 
the table of
my Bridgeport mill (cast iron to cast iron) without the 
leadscrew installed.
There was some stick-slip friction to get it moving, but 
then it SAILED
across the oil film, and I had to frantically grab it to 
keep it from
sailing right off the end!  I use ordinary ISO VG68 way lube 
on it.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[Dave Cole]

I do commercial machine controls and the Estops are usually over thought 
by the newbies.   First of all, the Estop on the LinuxCNC screen and 
Mach3 screen is not an Estop and has nothing to do with a safety Estop 
system.  (System Enable would be a better name)

A minimal Estop system has a sealed in mechanical relay.   There is a 
"power on" button (I usually use a Green lit pushbutton - LED is best) 
that pulls in the relay and a relay contact on the same relay seals in 
the circuit.  An Estop is initiated by a pushing in (and latching) a Red 
Estop button which has a NC (normally closed) contact.   The button must 
be twisted to release the latch.

I usually use 24 vdc control circuits as that is the industry norm 
now.   But this could also be done with 120 VAC as was common in the old 
days.

The sealed in "Estop" relay supplies power or control power to all of 
the contactors, and relays, or simply the devices that move the machine 
and tools.

If LinuxCNC hal is tied into the Estop system, it is only to inform 
LinuxCNC that a hard Estop has occurred.   The Estops basic purpose is 
to cut power to the machine when an Estop button is pressed and cut the 
power connection to the machine if the power goes out long enough for 
the relay to drop out.(So the machine doesn't restart after a power 
outage by itself.)  If you have brakes on the machine those (in general) 
engage when the power is cut.

Estop Pushbuttons - the twist to release buttons are required by most 
safety standards.   Lit Estop buttons with twist to release is common so 
it can be wired such that the button is lit when the estop button is 
depressed and latched.  That way it is obvious which button has been 
pushed in and that the Estop system has been activated.

Here are some parts:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Plastic/Emergency_Stop_Pushbuttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated
The Metal 22mm buttons are worth the few extra $.  Note that they sell 
latching-twist to release, and momentary.   Two different things.

Really nice power relays..  I've purchased hundreds and have yet to find 
a bad one.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Electro-Mechanical_Relays/Square_-z-_Cube_Relays,_Plug-In,_3A_-_15A_%2878x-z-_Qxx-z-H78x_Series%29/General_Purpose,_15A_%28781_-z-_782_-z-_783_-z-_784_Series%29/784-4C-24D

A nice power on momentary button that is illuminated.   It can be wired 
such that when the system is "On" and the relay is in, the button is lit.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Metal/Illuminated_Pushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended/LED/GCX1202-24L

For the quality of these devices, these are really inexpensive.

More info on Estop systems and requirements.
http://machinerysafety101.com/2009/03/06/emergency-stop-whats-so-confusing-about-that/

The diagram on page 11 is close to what I am describing wiring wise.
Replace the reset with the Power On button, The C Aux NC contact is not 
normally used in this country.
The ER relay is the sealed in relay.

http://www.infoplc.net/files/documentacion/seguridad_normativa/infoPLC_net_THE_EMERGENCY_STOP.pdf

This document says that force guided relays (Safety relays) are 
required.   In the US that depends on the company standards, the type of 
machine being controlled etc.

For personal use and a lot of commercial/industrial use in the US, just 
using a decent relay often suffices and meets insurance company 
requirements, etc.  Force guided safety relays start at about $80 each.

Dave


















On 11/7/2014 5:34 PM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> You shouldn't use integrated circuits to implement the AND logic.
> Instead, use relay logic.
>
> The output from the BOB that represents the internal E-stop state in
> LinuxCNC is wired to a relay.  If the BOB can't source enough current to
> drive the relay, you might need to use a small relay to operate a larger
> relay, but you don't need a high current relay for the relay logic.  You
> only need a small "ice cube" relay and the BOB output should be able to
> drive it directly.  If you select a relay with normally open and
> normally closed (NO and NC) contacts, you can select the correct set of
> contacts as you wire it to negate any signals that may be an opposite
> logic state than you assumed. That's a handy feature for flexibility and
> can come in handy for future add-ons.  It's easy to make one wrong
> assumption about signal polarity and have the opposite of what you need
> at the final relay in the circuit, and having NO and NC contacts on your
> relay is never having to say DOH!
>
> The logic relay that represents the LinuxCNC internal E-stop state is
> wired in series with any E-stop switches you installed.  That way, if
> you push any E-stop switch, or click the E-stop button in LinuxCNC, the
> machine goes into an E-stop state and all motion stops.  The signal that
> pa

Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[Joe Hildreth]

Bruce,

Yeah, I suppose I have been beating the horse to death with the questions. 
Sorry.  But hey, when you don't know a lot about it you have to start 
somewhere, right?  Thanks for all the help and clarification.

After I sent the email, I went off in search of relay logic circuits.  After 
reading a couple of articles I seen that I had it wron in my head.

Talking about easy cheap MC's, I loved the PIC, simple to code, implement and 
cheap on the wallet.

I am off to look for circuit examples.  Thanks for being so patient.

Regards,

Joe

- On Nov 7, 2014, at 11:05 PM, Bruce Layne linux...@thinkingdevices.com 
wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna, you ask a lot of questions! :-)
> 
> You don't wire the coils of relays in series for relay logic.  The coil
> voltage is selected to match the voltage you want to use to activate
> it... 5VDC, 12VDC, 24VDC, 120VAC, etc.  You wire the relay contacts in
> series to implement an AND function (as is the case with your E-stop
> switches and a relay that mirrors the status of the internal LinuxCNC
> E-stop signal, and any other relay controlled signal you want to
> generate an E-stop).  You'd wire the contacts from different relays in
> parallel to implement an OR function.
> 
> The reason I suggested using relay logic for this application is
> simplicity.   You'll need a relay to externalize the internal E-stop
> status anyway, so just wire the contacts in series with any E-stop
> switches you have and you're finished.  Why add any discrete logic ICs
> to that?  It's needless complexity.
> 
> I'm generally a big fan of implementing logic in software or firmware.
> I've replaced a lot of goofy 1950s technology relay logic where relays
> and electromechanical timers were used in the 1990s because someone
> didn't know how to use a PLC or (my favorite) a one dollar RISC
> microcontroller.  But if you already have the relay and that's all you
> need, why add an Arduino to drive the relay?
> 
> If you search for "E-stop circuit" and look at the images, you'll see
> lots of examples and it'll make sense.
> 
> There are also some standard circuits for input power disconnects (I
> don't go to that formality for my small CNC machines) with
> fuses/breakers, ON and OFF pushbutton switches that latch the ON
> condition until the OFF button is pressed, etc.
> 
> 
> Bruce

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Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[alex chiosso]

Dave you are 100% right. Your detailed explanation it`s correct
conceptually and practically for an industrial application.

Alex
Il giorno 08/nov/2014 17:03, "Joe Hildreth" 
ha scritto:

> Bruce,
>
> Yeah, I suppose I have been beating the horse to death with the questions.
> Sorry.  But hey, when you don't know a lot about it you have to start
> somewhere, right?  Thanks for all the help and clarification.
>
> After I sent the email, I went off in search of relay logic circuits.
> After reading a couple of articles I seen that I had it wron in my head.
>
> Talking about easy cheap MC's, I loved the PIC, simple to code, implement
> and cheap on the wallet.
>
> I am off to look for circuit examples.  Thanks for being so patient.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe
>
> - On Nov 7, 2014, at 11:05 PM, Bruce Layne
> linux...@thinkingdevices.com wrote:
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna, you ask a lot of questions! :-)
> >
> > You don't wire the coils of relays in series for relay logic.  The coil
> > voltage is selected to match the voltage you want to use to activate
> > it... 5VDC, 12VDC, 24VDC, 120VAC, etc.  You wire the relay contacts in
> > series to implement an AND function (as is the case with your E-stop
> > switches and a relay that mirrors the status of the internal LinuxCNC
> > E-stop signal, and any other relay controlled signal you want to
> > generate an E-stop).  You'd wire the contacts from different relays in
> > parallel to implement an OR function.
> >
> > The reason I suggested using relay logic for this application is
> > simplicity.   You'll need a relay to externalize the internal E-stop
> > status anyway, so just wire the contacts in series with any E-stop
> > switches you have and you're finished.  Why add any discrete logic ICs
> > to that?  It's needless complexity.
> >
> > I'm generally a big fan of implementing logic in software or firmware.
> > I've replaced a lot of goofy 1950s technology relay logic where relays
> > and electromechanical timers were used in the 1990s because someone
> > didn't know how to use a PLC or (my favorite) a one dollar RISC
> > microcontroller.  But if you already have the relay and that's all you
> > need, why add an Arduino to drive the relay?
> >
> > If you search for "E-stop circuit" and look at the images, you'll see
> > lots of examples and it'll make sense.
> >
> > There are also some standard circuits for input power disconnects (I
> > don't go to that formality for my small CNC machines) with
> > fuses/breakers, ON and OFF pushbutton switches that latch the ON
> > condition until the OFF button is pressed, etc.
> >
> >
> > Bruce
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[Joe Hildreth]

John,

Thanks for the link.  I took a close look at it and then read the man pages for 
estop_latch and iocontrol.  I think I have a grip on it.  Well for now.  Thanks 
again for the link.

Joe

- On Nov 8, 2014, at 6:37 AM, John Thornton bjt...@gmail.com wrote:

> Coordinating an external E-Stop with LinuxCNC can be done with the
> ESTOP_LATCH component as described here:
> 
> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/47-hal-examples/25861-external-e-stop
> 
> JT
> 
> On 11/7/2014 3:35 PM, Joe Hildreth wrote:
>> Bruce,
>>
>> One more question.  If I wired it like my last email, then LinuxCNC would not
>> have any clue that I hit the external E-Stop.  Would it be benifitial to 
>> bring
>> the signal back in anyway, just to let the software know we killed it
>> externally?  Otherwise, I imagine that the software will continue to send
>> motion information and continue to plot like nothing ever happened.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[Dave Cole]

>>I wonder how long it takes to pay back the $75
difference at 9 watts?

9 watts x 2000 hrs per year = 18KWHR/yr @ $0.10 per KWHR that would 
be $1.80 per year so a payback of  $75/$1.8 = $41.6 years

So payback will occur during my next life.  ;-)
This the same reason why buying 50 year life shingles for my house is a 
total waste of money.

I have CFLs in track light cans in my office and they are ok but Costco 
has started selling LED flood lamps that are about 4x as efficient as 
CFLs with some crazy long lifetime numbers (20,000 hours?) so I have 
started buying those instead.  I think they are less than $10 each in a 
two pack.  I have had two installed for about 3 months now and I am 
going to replace the CFLs as they fail (I have about a dozen in my office.)

So far so good.

Dave


On 11/8/2014 7:46 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> I find it hard to beat T8 fluorescent bulbs at $2.50 each by the 10 pack
> with brighter color of 6500K and the same lumens of 2300... the only
> savings is 9 watts. I wonder how long it takes to pay back the $75
> difference at 9 watts?
>
> JT
>
> On 11/8/2014 6:30 AM, Ron Ginger wrote:
>> On 11/8/2014 12:05 AM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
>>> On 7 November 2014 23:10, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
> This looks interesting, but I have no idea how well these dimmable T8
> LEDs work.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/121227773225
>> I just bought 2 of these to try. I like the light output- it is hard to
>> tell they are not florescent. However the ebay link is more than double
>> the price I paid- mine were less than $20 each from 1000bulbs.com and
>> they had some warm white for about $12.
>>
>> I do not use a dimmer, so have no idea how they work. These lights do
>> have a noticeable turn on time, maybe a second or two.
>>
>> I like the energy saving part, so I will likely replace more in my shop
>> as the old ones die.
>>
>> ron ginger
>>
>>
>> --
>> ___
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[Bruce Layne]

On 11/08/2014 12:02 PM, Joe Hildreth wrote:
> I suppose I have been beating the horse to death with the questions. Sorry.  
> But hey, when you don't know a lot about it you have to start somewhere, 
> right?  Thanks for all the help and clarification.

My pleasure.  I've received a fair amount of LinuxCNC specific answers 
from the good people on this list, and if I can answer an electrical 
question, I'm happy to have the opportunity to pay it forward.  I kept 
urging you to look for example E-stop schematics because I felt it was 
the easiest way for you to grok the concepts. A picture is worth a 
thousand words.

The recent post by Dave describes the industry standard way to wire a 
machine.  I've designed quite a few industrial machines just like that.  
I do cut some corners on machines I use in my basement shop (solid state 
relays instead of mechanical relays, etc.), but I still adhere to the 
same basic concepts because that's generally the simplest way to do the 
job.  It also helps to wire it according to standard design principles 
because that'll make it easier for me or anyone else who has some 
machine wiring experience to troubleshoot later.  Standard methods 
ensure we're all on the same page.



> Talking about easy cheap MC's, I loved the PIC, simple to code, implement and 
> cheap on the wallet.

I was in early on the PIC microcontrollers, and wrote a LOT of PIC 
assembler code.  I haven't dabbled in that in almost a decade, but I'm 
about to do a simple PIC project or two.




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Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[pc]

This is how I have it setup on the CNC lathe refit I've been working on. Using 
120V on estop only because the relays that came with the machine were 120v 
coils, so use what I've got. PC/monitor power is the only thing not on the 
estop system, just the main machine power switch. Push the "Machine On" green 
button and it switches on power to the spindle VFD and the axis and field I/O 
power supplies. Hit the estop button and all of that drops. I'll ultimately tie 
it in to a signal line to HAL to let LinuxCNC know if the machine is on or 
estopped. Simple and reliable, and also pretty much the same as the estop on my 
larger commercial CNC mill (not retrofitted yet).



--Original Mail--
From: "Dave Cole" 
To: 
Sent: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 12:01:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

I do commercial machine controls and the Estops are usually over thought 
by the newbies.   First of all, the Estop on the LinuxCNC screen and 
Mach3 screen is not an Estop and has nothing to do with a safety Estop 
system.  (System Enable would be a better name)

A minimal Estop system has a sealed in mechanical relay.   There is a 
"power on" button (I usually use a Green lit pushbutton - LED is best) 
that pulls in the relay and a relay contact on the same relay seals in 
the circuit.  An Estop is initiated by a pushing in (and latching) a Red 
Estop button which has a NC (normally closed) contact.   The button must 
be twisted to release the latch.

I usually use 24 vdc control circuits as that is the industry norm 
now.   But this could also be done with 120 VAC as was common in the old 
days.

The sealed in "Estop" relay supplies power or control power to all of 
the contactors, and relays, or simply the devices that move the machine 
and tools.

If LinuxCNC hal is tied into the Estop system, it is only to inform 
LinuxCNC that a hard Estop has occurred.   The Estops basic purpose is 
to cut power to the machine when an Estop button is pressed and cut the 
power connection to the machine if the power goes out long enough for 
the relay to drop out.(So the machine doesn't restart after a power 
outage by itself.)  If you have brakes on the machine those (in general) 
engage when the power is cut.

Estop Pushbuttons - the twist to release buttons are required by most 
safety standards.   Lit Estop buttons with twist to release is common so 
it can be wired such that the button is lit when the estop button is 
depressed and latched.  That way it is obvious which button has been 
pushed in and that the Estop system has been activated.

Here are some parts:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Plastic/Emergency_Stop_Pushbuttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated
The Metal 22mm buttons are worth the few extra $.  Note that they sell 
latching-twist to release, and momentary.   Two different things.

Really nice power relays..  I've purchased hundreds and have yet to find 
a bad one.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Electro-Mechanical_Relays/Square_-z-_Cube_Relays,_Plug-In,_3A_-_15A_%2878x-z-_Qxx-z-H78x_Series%29/General_Purpose,_15A_%28781_-z-_782_-z-_783_-z-_784_Series%29/784-4C-24D

A nice power on momentary button that is illuminated.   It can be wired 
such that when the system is "On" and the relay is in, the button is lit.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Metal/Illuminated_Pushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended/LED/GCX1202-24L

For the quality of these devices, these are really inexpensive.

More info on Estop systems and requirements.
http://machinerysafety101.com/2009/03/06/emergency-stop-whats-so-confusing-about-that/

The diagram on page 11 is close to what I am describing wiring wise.
Replace the reset with the Power On button, The C Aux NC contact is not 
normally used in this country.
The ER relay is the sealed in relay.

http://www.infoplc.net/files/documentacion/seguridad_normativa/infoPLC_net_THE_EMERGENCY_STOP.pdf

This document says that force guided relays (Safety relays) are 
required.   In the US that depends on the company standards, the type of 
machine being controlled etc.

For personal use and a lot of commercial/industrial use in the US, just 
using a decent relay often suffices and meets insurance company 
requirements, etc.  Force guided safety relays start at about $80 each.

Dave


















On 11/7/2014 5:34 PM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> You shouldn't use integrated circuits to implement the AND logic.
> Instead, use relay logic.
>
> The output from the BOB that represents the internal E-stop state in
> LinuxCNC is wired to a relay.  If the BOB can't source enough current to
> drive the relay, you might need to use a small relay to operate a larger
> relay, but you don't need a high current relay for the relay logic.  You
> only need a small "ice cube" relay and the BOB output should be abl

Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[alex chiosso]

Only the outputs power supply should be cut off from the Estop circuit and
in some cases only the outputs that activate the main power and circuit
enable the axis and spindle drives and the devices that have to be stopped
in case of Emergency stop .
The inputs power supply is usually not under the Estop circuit  control.

Alex
Il giorno 08/nov/2014 17:41,  ha scritto:

> This is how I have it setup on the CNC lathe refit I've been working on.
> Using 120V on estop only because the relays that came with the machine were
> 120v coils, so use what I've got. PC/monitor power is the only thing not on
> the estop system, just the main machine power switch. Push the "Machine On"
> green button and it switches on power to the spindle VFD and the axis and
> field I/O power supplies. Hit the estop button and all of that drops. I'll
> ultimately tie it in to a signal line to HAL to let LinuxCNC know if the
> machine is on or estopped. Simple and reliable, and also pretty much the
> same as the estop on my larger commercial CNC mill (not retrofitted yet).
>
>
>
> --Original Mail--
> From: "Dave Cole" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 12:01:13 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps
>
> I do commercial machine controls and the Estops are usually over thought
> by the newbies.   First of all, the Estop on the LinuxCNC screen and
> Mach3 screen is not an Estop and has nothing to do with a safety Estop
> system.  (System Enable would be a better name)
>
> A minimal Estop system has a sealed in mechanical relay.   There is a
> "power on" button (I usually use a Green lit pushbutton - LED is best)
> that pulls in the relay and a relay contact on the same relay seals in
> the circuit.  An Estop is initiated by a pushing in (and latching) a Red
> Estop button which has a NC (normally closed) contact.   The button must
> be twisted to release the latch.
>
> I usually use 24 vdc control circuits as that is the industry norm
> now.   But this could also be done with 120 VAC as was common in the old
> days.
>
> The sealed in "Estop" relay supplies power or control power to all of
> the contactors, and relays, or simply the devices that move the machine
> and tools.
>
> If LinuxCNC hal is tied into the Estop system, it is only to inform
> LinuxCNC that a hard Estop has occurred.   The Estops basic purpose is
> to cut power to the machine when an Estop button is pressed and cut the
> power connection to the machine if the power goes out long enough for
> the relay to drop out.(So the machine doesn't restart after a power
> outage by itself.)  If you have brakes on the machine those (in general)
> engage when the power is cut.
>
> Estop Pushbuttons - the twist to release buttons are required by most
> safety standards.   Lit Estop buttons with twist to release is common so
> it can be wired such that the button is lit when the estop button is
> depressed and latched.  That way it is obvious which button has been
> pushed in and that the Estop system has been activated.
>
> Here are some parts:
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Plastic/Emergency_Stop_Pushbuttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated
> The Metal 22mm buttons are worth the few extra $.  Note that they sell
> latching-twist to release, and momentary.   Two different things.
>
> Really nice power relays..  I've purchased hundreds and have yet to find
> a bad one.
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Electro-Mechanical_Relays/Square_-z-_Cube_Relays,_Plug-In,_3A_-_15A_%2878x-z-_Qxx-z-H78x_Series%29/General_Purpose,_15A_%28781_-z-_782_-z-_783_-z-_784_Series%29/784-4C-24D
>
> A nice power on momentary button that is illuminated.   It can be wired
> such that when the system is "On" and the relay is in, the button is lit.
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Metal/Illuminated_Pushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended/LED/GCX1202-24L
>
> For the quality of these devices, these are really inexpensive.
>
> More info on Estop systems and requirements.
>
> http://machinerysafety101.com/2009/03/06/emergency-stop-whats-so-confusing-about-that/
>
> The diagram on page 11 is close to what I am describing wiring wise.
> Replace the reset with the Power On button, The C Aux NC contact is not
> normally used in this country.
> The ER relay is the sealed in relay.
>
>
> http://www.infoplc.net/files/documentacion/seguridad_normativa/infoPLC_net_THE_EMERGENCY_STOP.pdf
>
> This document says that force guided relays (Safety relays) are
> required.   In the US that depends on the company standards, the type of
> machine being controlled etc.
>
> For personal use and a lot of commercial/industrial use in the US, just
> using a decent relay often suffices and meets insurance company
> requirements, etc.  Force guided safety relays start at about $80 each.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Emc-users] Inkscape ?? g code tool quick and dirty for Gene

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 08 November 2014 07:05:15 linden did opine
And Gene did reply:
> I spent a week or so playing with inkscape and inkscape g code tools
> last month. It is not the most intuitive software to use but i ll give
> you the quick and dirty version
> 
> - Open your file in what ever format it is and try and use from the
> *Path* menu *Trace **Bitmap* . (I think you are getting this far and
> your computer is hanging)

Correct.  But not hanging or burning up the cpu's.
 
> -If that is the case go to the *File Menu* and then *Export Bitmap*
> instead. You can play with size and scale and all that jazz in the
> window that pops up i don’t worry to much about it as long as it is
> close. Save a bitmap version of your file.

Which was saved as a .png.
> 
> - Open the bitmap file you just made with inkscape chose imbed file at
> the pop up

Did that. Quit inkscape & restarted, loading the .png.
> 
> - Now *Trace Bitmap* the default settings should work and we will get a
> vector image over our bitmap image (if not you will have to read and
> play a little).

I am not seeing a change in the main display. But it says to select image 
to trace, so I draw a box around the objects. When I release the mouse, it 
clamps the box to exactly the size of the image.

Then, when I edge detect trace, I get a short vertical line at the 
location of a gap between the two merged images, a very small marker where 
the holes are to be drilled, and at the rounded corners of the image where 
the curves are actually inside the selection box.  The snap to edge 
function is removing most of the edge from the area of detection.  And 
apparently uses the lower left as the anchor because no adjustment handle 
is shown there. IOW I can't include some blank space around the objects to 
be used as the edge detection border. Nothing I can do from the snap menu 
on the right side seems to effect this.  No "undo snap" button to be seen.

And when I tried to generate the gcode, it threw up an error warning box 
for every character I changed in the selection window, and when I had told 
it the filename to use, and where to put it, that errors, with quite a few 
fix hints displayed.  Including export to a ps and reload that!

Except that this time I get a different error.

Select one of the action tabs - Path to Gcode, Area, Engraving, DXF 
points, Orientation, Offset, Lathe or Tools library.
 Current active tab id is "preferences"

So what am I missing?
 
>   All being well you can move on to the fun stuff.
> 
> - Add a layer*Layer**Menu* *Add Layer*
> 
> - Drag the  vector trace off the bitmap image. (any where just so we
> can see the 2 separate images)
> 
> - Now go to the *View Menu* -> *Display mode* -> *Outline* are original
> image should now be a box with a red x through it and our vector trace
> will just be lines with with no colour.
> 
> - Select the box with the red x and deleet it we dont need it any more
> we are only concerned with the vector tracing you may need to go back
> to *View Menu* -> *Display mode* -> *Normal* for it to show up and let
> you delete it
> 
> - Now select the complete vector trace *control X *to cut select the
> layer we made earler in the drop down menu on the bottom edge of the
> screen directly below the Text Menu
> 
> - Now *control v *to past wile we are here delete any other layers you
> have makes life easer later
> 
> - Drag the Vector trace to the middle of the worksheet or some where
> easy to work
> 
> - Now go to *extensions menu -> gcodetools* -> *orientation points *Set
> Z zero (i just leave it as 0 and touch off the surface of my stock)
> we need to set Z depth (total depth we need to cut 1 inch or what ever
> the total depth will be we will set are depth for each pass latter
> 
> - Select inches or mm (probably do this first ;-)
> 
> - the other settings you can play with latter but the defaults should
> work for now
> 
> -  click apply and we are done here
> 
> *- extensions menu -> gcodetools* -> *tools library *select cylinder or
> cone and click apply
> 
> - this should put a square box with some defult settings on you work
> sheet
> 
> - select the box and drag it some where you can reed the settings we
> will have to change some as the defaults are 2 fast if you are using
> inches
> 
> - to edit settings open *Text menu -> Text and Fonts* -> *text *tab now
> click on the 400 in the feed rate and if you hold your tong just right
> and click lots it will open and 400 will be displayed in the*text* tab
> we can set it to 100 or what ever is needed for you machine click apply
> and ajust the other settings as needed.
> 
> Diameter of tool
> Depth step = how deep we will cut with each pass
> Tool Cange G code ie (M6 T1)
> 
> Last steps open*extensions menu -> gcodetools* -> *path to gcode* then
> *Preferences *tab:
>  -set file name
>  -place to save file
>  -z safe hight
>  -post possessor round to 4 digits (can play with other setting
> next time)
> 
> *options* tab
> 

Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[pc]

There is only one small field I/O power supply. Estop drops all the power 
supplies.


--Original Mail--
From: "alex chiosso" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 18:52:41 +0100
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

Only the outputs power supply should be cut off from the Estop circuit and
in some cases only the outputs that activate the main power and circuit
enable the axis and spindle drives and the devices that have to be stopped
in case of Emergency stop .
The inputs power supply is usually not under the Estop circuit  control.

Alex
Il giorno 08/nov/2014 17:41,  ha scritto:

> This is how I have it setup on the CNC lathe refit I've been working on.
> Using 120V on estop only because the relays that came with the machine were
> 120v coils, so use what I've got. PC/monitor power is the only thing not on
> the estop system, just the main machine power switch. Push the "Machine On"
> green button and it switches on power to the spindle VFD and the axis and
> field I/O power supplies. Hit the estop button and all of that drops. I'll
> ultimately tie it in to a signal line to HAL to let LinuxCNC know if the
> machine is on or estopped. Simple and reliable, and also pretty much the
> same as the estop on my larger commercial CNC mill (not retrofitted yet).
>
>
>
> --Original Mail--
> From: "Dave Cole" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 12:01:13 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps
>
> I do commercial machine controls and the Estops are usually over thought
> by the newbies.   First of all, the Estop on the LinuxCNC screen and
> Mach3 screen is not an Estop and has nothing to do with a safety Estop
> system.  (System Enable would be a better name)
>
> A minimal Estop system has a sealed in mechanical relay.   There is a
> "power on" button (I usually use a Green lit pushbutton - LED is best)
> that pulls in the relay and a relay contact on the same relay seals in
> the circuit.  An Estop is initiated by a pushing in (and latching) a Red
> Estop button which has a NC (normally closed) contact.   The button must
> be twisted to release the latch.
>
> I usually use 24 vdc control circuits as that is the industry norm
> now.   But this could also be done with 120 VAC as was common in the old
> days.
>
> The sealed in "Estop" relay supplies power or control power to all of
> the contactors, and relays, or simply the devices that move the machine
> and tools.
>
> If LinuxCNC hal is tied into the Estop system, it is only to inform
> LinuxCNC that a hard Estop has occurred.   The Estops basic purpose is
> to cut power to the machine when an Estop button is pressed and cut the
> power connection to the machine if the power goes out long enough for
> the relay to drop out.(So the machine doesn't restart after a power
> outage by itself.)  If you have brakes on the machine those (in general)
> engage when the power is cut.
>
> Estop Pushbuttons - the twist to release buttons are required by most
> safety standards.   Lit Estop buttons with twist to release is common so
> it can be wired such that the button is lit when the estop button is
> depressed and latched.  That way it is obvious which button has been
> pushed in and that the Estop system has been activated.
>
> Here are some parts:
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Plastic/Emergency_Stop_Pushbuttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated
> The Metal 22mm buttons are worth the few extra $.  Note that they sell
> latching-twist to release, and momentary.   Two different things.
>
> Really nice power relays..  I've purchased hundreds and have yet to find
> a bad one.
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Electro-Mechanical_Relays/Square_-z-_Cube_Relays,_Plug-In,_3A_-_15A_%2878x-z-_Qxx-z-H78x_Series%29/General_Purpose,_15A_%28781_-z-_782_-z-_783_-z-_784_Series%29/784-4C-24D
>
> A nice power on momentary button that is illuminated.   It can be wired
> such that when the system is "On" and the relay is in, the button is lit.
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Metal/Illuminated_Pushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended/LED/GCX1202-24L
>
> For the quality of these devices, these are really inexpensive.
>
> More info on Estop systems and requirements.
>
> http://machinerysafety101.com/2009/03/06/emergency-stop-whats-so-confusing-about-that/
>
> The diagram on page 11 is close to what I am describing wiring wise.
> Replace the reset with the Power On button, The C Aux NC contact is not
> normally used in this country.
> The ER relay is the sealed in relay.
>
>
> http://www.infoplc.net/files/documentacion/seguridad_normativa/infoPLC_net_THE_EMERGENCY_STOP.pdf
>
> This document says that force guided relays (Safety relays) are
> required.   In the US that depends on the company standards, the 

Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[Jon Elson]

On 11/08/2014 11:29 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>>> I wonder how long it takes to pay back the $75
> difference at 9 watts?
>
> 9 watts x 2000 hrs per year = 18KWHR/yr @ $0.10 per KWHR that would
> be $1.80 per year so a payback of  $75/$1.8 = $41.6 years
>
>
I made up my own LED retrofits, because I couldn't find 
anything that looked
like it would work well.  I bought Cree 1W LEDs, and put a 
string of 20 of
them on strips of PC board material with little grooves 
cutting the
copper path.  Each LED has 2 square inches of copper as a 
heat sink.
I used commercial LED lighting regulators, which were pretty 
expensive.
I have these in the kitchen, where they are on a LOT of the day.
One strip of 20 LEDs is brighter than 2 32 W 48" fluorescents.
Not only looks brighter, but my photometer also says they are
brighter.  I have them suspended inside the drop ceiling dual
fluorescent fixtures with 2 x 4' plastic diffusers that were 
there before.

I measured the power draw of the old magnetic ballast, it 
was 103 W
with a real power meter.  The new system reads 21 W.

I guesstimate payback in about 3 years.

I first did a 10 W unit with a power supply I made myself, 
it has been running
about 18 months so far, and is still working really well, 
too.  I think if you
use good LEDs at reasonable current levels, the dimming over 
time will
be very slow.  Cree has lifetime charts that show several 
hundred K hours
before significant loss of brightness.  I did make sure the 
LEDs run pretty
cool, much cooler than a lot of the stuff sold in stores.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[Greg Bernard]

Not following your description, Jon. Do you have a pic of what you did with the 
PC board?
+++
"Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is 
either a madman or an economist."
        -Kenneth Boulding, economist
“How unfortunate that the Earth’s first intelligent social animal is a tribal 
carnivore” 
    -E.O. Wilson, sociobiologist

 
  From: Jon Elson 
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)  
 Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2014 3:33 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting
   
On 11/08/2014 11:29 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>>> I wonder how long it takes to pay back the $75
> difference at 9 watts?
>
> 9 watts x 2000 hrs per year = 18KWHR/yr    @ $0.10 per KWHR that would
> be $1.80 per year so a payback of  $75/$1.8 = $41.6 years
>
>
I made up my own LED retrofits, because I couldn't find 
anything that looked
like it would work well.  I bought Cree 1W LEDs, and put a 
string of 20 of
them on strips of PC board material with little grooves 
cutting the
copper path.  Each LED has 2 square inches of copper as a 
heat sink.
I used commercial LED lighting regulators, which were pretty 
expensive.
I have these in the kitchen, where they are on a LOT of the day.
One strip of 20 LEDs is brighter than 2 32 W 48" fluorescents.
Not only looks brighter, but my photometer also says they are
brighter.  I have them suspended inside the drop ceiling dual
fluorescent fixtures with 2 x 4' plastic diffusers that were 
there before.

I measured the power draw of the old magnetic ballast, it 
was 103 W
with a real power meter.  The new system reads 21 W.

I guesstimate payback in about 3 years.

I first did a 10 W unit with a power supply I made myself, 
it has been running
about 18 months so far, and is still working really well, 
too.  I think if you
use good LEDs at reasonable current levels, the dimming over 
time will
be very slow.  Cree has lifetime charts that show several 
hundred K hours
before significant loss of brightness.  I did make sure the 
LEDs run pretty
cool, much cooler than a lot of the stuff sold in stores.

Jon



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Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: [Emc-users] A beginners question about E-Stop and Charge Pumps

[andy pugh]

On 7 November 2014 21:35, Joe Hildreth  wrote:

> One more question.  If I wired it like my last email, then LinuxCNC would not 
> have any clue that I hit the external E-Stop.

My scheme is similar to those described, the motion.machine-is-on
signal is amplified to have enough current to  operate the main
contactor, then the contactor coil circuit runs through all the
e-stops.
On the mill the e-stops all have a second switch module that tells the
system that the e-stop has been pressed. I don't think that the lathe
knows.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[Tom Easterday]

Since this thread is heading down the path of DIY, and since I just ordered 
some more of these for a lamp I am upgrading, I thought I would mention this 
very useful LED module from Seoul Semiconductor which is powered directly off 
120/220V mains.  All that is required is a heat sink to mount it to and Bob’s 
Your Uncle.
http://www.seoulsemicon.com/en/html/application/application.asp?catecode=3011&subcode=28
 

This very bright one is going into my lamp:  
http://www.seoulsemicon.com/_upload/Goods_Spec/SMJE-XV12W2P4(0).pdf 

They can be found at Digi-key, Mouser and various other places.
-Tom

> On Nov 8, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
> On 11/08/2014 11:29 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
 I wonder how long it takes to pay back the $75
>> difference at 9 watts?
>> 
>> 9 watts x 2000 hrs per year = 18KWHR/yr @ $0.10 per KWHR that would
>> be $1.80 per year so a payback of  $75/$1.8 = $41.6 years
>> 
>> 
> I made up my own LED retrofits, because I couldn't find 
> anything that looked
> like it would work well.  I bought Cree 1W LEDs, and put a 
> string of 20 of
> them on strips of PC board material with little grooves 
> cutting the
> copper path.  Each LED has 2 square inches of copper as a 
> heat sink.
> I used commercial LED lighting regulators, which were pretty 
> expensive.
> I have these in the kitchen, where they are on a LOT of the day.
> One strip of 20 LEDs is brighter than 2 32 W 48" fluorescents.
> Not only looks brighter, but my photometer also says they are
> brighter.  I have them suspended inside the drop ceiling dual
> fluorescent fixtures with 2 x 4' plastic diffusers that were 
> there before.
> 
> I measured the power draw of the old magnetic ballast, it 
> was 103 W
> with a real power meter.  The new system reads 21 W.
> 
> I guesstimate payback in about 3 years.
> 
> I first did a 10 W unit with a power supply I made myself, 
> it has been running
> about 18 months so far, and is still working really well, 
> too.  I think if you
> use good LEDs at reasonable current levels, the dimming over 
> time will
> be very slow.  Cree has lifetime charts that show several 
> hundred K hours
> before significant loss of brightness.  I did make sure the 
> LEDs run pretty
> cool, much cooler than a lot of the stuff sold in stores.
> 
> Jon
> 
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[John Kasunich]

Going even more off topic - these aren't particularly useful shop 
lights, but they are blindingly bright and incredibly cheap.  
100 Watts, 9000 lumens.
They need heat sinking (I've used CPU fan/sink combos).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380515680644


On Sat, Nov 8, 2014, at 05:06 PM, Tom Easterday wrote:
> Since this thread is heading down the path of DIY, and since I just ordered 
> some more of these for a lamp I am upgrading, I thought I would mention this 
> very useful LED module from Seoul Semiconductor which is powered directly off 
> 120/220V mains.  All that is required is a heat sink to mount it to and Bob’s 
> Your Uncle.
> http://www.seoulsemicon.com/en/html/application/application.asp?catecode=3011&subcode=28
>  
> 
> This very bright one is going into my lamp:  
> http://www.seoulsemicon.com/_upload/Goods_Spec/SMJE-XV12W2P4(0).pdf 
> 
> They can be found at Digi-key, Mouser and various other places.
> -Tom
> 
> > On Nov 8, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> > 
> > On 11/08/2014 11:29 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>  I wonder how long it takes to pay back the $75
> >> difference at 9 watts?
> >> 
> >> 9 watts x 2000 hrs per year = 18KWHR/yr @ $0.10 per KWHR that would
> >> be $1.80 per year so a payback of  $75/$1.8 = $41.6 years
> >> 
> >> 
> > I made up my own LED retrofits, because I couldn't find 
> > anything that looked
> > like it would work well.  I bought Cree 1W LEDs, and put a 
> > string of 20 of
> > them on strips of PC board material with little grooves 
> > cutting the
> > copper path.  Each LED has 2 square inches of copper as a 
> > heat sink.
> > I used commercial LED lighting regulators, which were pretty 
> > expensive.
> > I have these in the kitchen, where they are on a LOT of the day.
> > One strip of 20 LEDs is brighter than 2 32 W 48" fluorescents.
> > Not only looks brighter, but my photometer also says they are
> > brighter.  I have them suspended inside the drop ceiling dual
> > fluorescent fixtures with 2 x 4' plastic diffusers that were 
> > there before.
> > 
> > I measured the power draw of the old magnetic ballast, it 
> > was 103 W
> > with a real power meter.  The new system reads 21 W.
> > 
> > I guesstimate payback in about 3 years.
> > 
> > I first did a 10 W unit with a power supply I made myself, 
> > it has been running
> > about 18 months so far, and is still working really well, 
> > too.  I think if you
> > use good LEDs at reasonable current levels, the dimming over 
> > time will
> > be very slow.  Cree has lifetime charts that show several 
> > hundred K hours
> > before significant loss of brightness.  I did make sure the 
> > LEDs run pretty
> > cool, much cooler than a lot of the stuff sold in stores.
> > 
> > Jon
> > 
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-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[Jack Coats]

The only thing that makes changing technologies (or bulbs) economic is
if there is a real gain.  If you are hitting a burned out bulb, and
you WANT to change, AND you don't have any more of the old bulbs in
the cupboard, then changing tech seems reasonable.  Just because CFL
is more efficient, but I have a 140V incandescent in a hard to reach
place on a 120V circuit, it isn't likely to burn out.  But if I have
to, it will become a 'high reliability' CFL or LED (depending on the
tech available at the time).

If I must also pay for replacing the fixtures (going from screw in
bulbs to bulbs with a different mount) then economics makes pay back
even harder to justify.

But if SWMBO 'thinks it would look better', economics be damned, that
sucker is gone, and whatever boondoggle she likes goes where she
wants. 

The economics of keeping a spouse happy outweighs money and
environmental savings any day.

In my 'workspace'.  Safety, my 'want to', then economics and
environment (however I weigh their needs that day), drive the
need/desire/probability of change.

When I was consulting, most larger decisions was made with spread
sheets.  Comparing options, and doing weightings for (depending on the
project), desirability (technological, artistic, usability, plain
'want to do it' factor, etc), economics ($$ outlay, $$ sunk cost, $$
additional cost, continuing running costs), effort involved
(man-hours), lifetime (in time), lifetime cost analysis (soup to nuts,
costs from acquisition, installation, retrofit, operational $$,
retirement and disposal cost at end-of-life), lifetime costs
$$/lifetime(in time)== $$/time.

I typically came up with 3 options (after evaluating more), and gave
those to the customer/bosses/clients/whatever to choose from the 3 (or
other small subset of the entire universe evaluated).

In our personal life, we try to do the best lifetime cost.  But that
doesn't out strip some projects we do because we 'want to' anyway.

We put passive solar water heating (no pumps or automatic valves
involved) on our house in the Carter years.  We knew that its lifetime
cost would be a wash ($0 overall gain to our pocket, even after govt
'stimulus' -- it was the Carter years and they gave solar anything
some good grants).  But we did it because of the want too, and
figuring it wouldn't really cost us anything.

We did a post mortum after they were removed years later.  They broke
even economically.  They brought in enough energy to offset the future
value of invested money.  Still we were in an 'all electric' house
built in the '70s, in the sunbelt.  If we had natural gas available,
it would have made no sense. (BTW, it was removed because the
galvanized pipe they used started leaking at joint with the stainless
steel tank inside the plastic dome on the roof.  It was removed when
we had the 30 year roof replaced after 15 years (normal roof life in
the sun belt - Houston area).

Still it kept down our electric water heater bills.  The thing lasted
as long as we suspected and used in calculations, but not as long as
the door-to-door-sales-droid said - to no surprise to us.  We did our
own economic analysis that the salies-droid called 'voodoo math' to
our face.  And yes, he was almost thrown out on his ear at that point.
We told him to shut up and have some more coffee while we did
big-boy-economics (wife had just finished a class at work on doing
project lifecycle economic analysis.  ...  It is good to marry someone
smarter that I am! :) ).  The economics was a draw.  So we based it on
'want' not need.  The 'want' and 'cool factor' for both of us won out.
... Such is how decisions are done in our household.


On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 5:02 PM, John Kasunich  wrote:
> Going even more off topic - these aren't particularly useful shop
> lights, but they are blindingly bright and incredibly cheap.
> 100 Watts, 9000 lumens.
> They need heat sinking (I've used CPU fan/sink combos).
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/380515680644
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 8, 2014, at 05:06 PM, Tom Easterday wrote:
>> Since this thread is heading down the path of DIY, and since I just ordered 
>> some more of these for a lamp I am upgrading, I thought I would mention this 
>> very useful LED module from Seoul Semiconductor which is powered directly 
>> off 120/220V mains.  All that is required is a heat sink to mount it to and 
>> Bob’s Your Uncle.
>> http://www.seoulsemicon.com/en/html/application/application.asp?catecode=3011&subcode=28
>>  
>> 
>> This very bright one is going into my lamp:  
>> http://www.seoulsemicon.com/_upload/Goods_Spec/SMJE-XV12W2P4(0).pdf 
>> 
>> They can be found at Digi-key, Mouser and various other places.
>> -Tom
>>
>> > On Nov 8, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:
>> >
>> > On 11/08/2014 11:29 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>>  I wonder how long it takes to pay back the $75
>

Re: [Emc-users] Off Topic: Shop Lighting

[Jon Elson]

On 11/08/2014 03:45 PM, Greg Bernard wrote:
> Not following your description, Jon. Do you have a pic of what you did with 
> the PC board?
>
I really ought to do this, but haven't made pictures so 
far.  I take a 22" long,
2" wide piece of double sided PC board material.  The 
dimensions are
partly due to the material I have on hand, but it works 
well.  I cut
10 grooves in the copper, making 11 2" square pieces of copper,
separated by narrow slits.  I only cut deep enough to 
totally isolate
the copper and not weaken the fiberglass.  This is all done 
on one
side.  I then solder 10 Cree XPEBWT-01--00CC2LEDs (from
Digi-Key) across the grooves.  These are surface mount LEDs, 
and the
copper sheet acts as a heat sink.  I wire two of these strips in
series, and then use the back side of the board to return the
far end connection back to the other end.

I use a commercial LED power supply, LED25W-72-C0350, also from
Digi-Key.  This provides 350 mA to any string of LEDs from 
24 - 72 V,
and is highly efficient.

Don't look at the LEDs when you power them on!  They are 
insanely
bright point sources.  With a plastic diffuser, they only 
look a little
different from a fluorescent tube.

Jon
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