Re: [Emc-users] question about glue

[dave engvall]

  I happen to use some of the quick setting JBweld today. I misspoke, 
it is not clear, grayish and black for the two parts. It may be just 
carbon black but who knows.


Almost every hardware store has Devcon products, slow setting and fast. 
At least some are clear. Sorry for the confusion. IIRC Devcon was pretty 
much the first entry into small tubes of 2 part epoxy.


Dave

On 2/12/20 11:52 AM, David Berndt wrote:
Not directly glue advise. But gear tooth sensor advise. Don't let the 
heads of those things rip off and go through my gear head mill's bevel 
gear teeth. Not pretty. No teeth broke but there is a surprising 
amount of quite hard metal in the middle of something like an Allegro 
ATS675 it seems. The gears were nowhere near silent before, but 
they're louder now for the experience.



-Dave

On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:27:48 -0500, Gene Heskett 
 wrote:



Greetings all;

I went tp play with the lathe after reboot the rpi4 with cpu_freq raised
to 800 megs.

All of a sudden the spindle tach got noisy, then quit. removeing the
heads lid, I could see a good coat of the 5w20 I've been useing for
spindle oil had flung out of the side face of the bronze bearing and
given my encoder assembly a good coat of it.

Removeing it for a better look I found 2 of the 667's loose with 
signs of

the bull gear touching them, with one having vibrated enough to break
its wraping wire connections. They were glued into pockets machined in
the mounting bracket which if the glue worked had them spaced about 5
thou away from the bull gear in a curved alu bracket made of of 7075
scrap. I've made a wooden c clamp with a #6 wood screw which is
currently sitting with the point of the screw in the middle of the face
of the loose index generating 667 after the alu was well washed by
acetone and then filling its pocket in the bracket with shoe goop, same
stuff as go-2.  And tomorrow I'll do the same with the other.

Cleaned up with acetone of course.

Previous attempts to glue then in place with super glue were very short
lived, loose in a week.  Ditto with gelled super glue.

The go-2 lasted about 2 years.

What sort of glue can I use that can withstand an oily environment of
light 00w20 for many years?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs WORKS

[Thomas D. Dean]

On 2020-02-12 13:44, Thomas D. Dean wrote:

On 2020-02-12 13:39, Thomas D. Dean wrote:

On 2020-02-12 00:03, Robert Murphy wrote:

Have you seen this on the forums

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/gmoccapy/36942-debian-10-dependencies?start=10#149669 







I followed this series of emails.


python-gtksourceview2_2.10.1-3_amd64.deb from 
packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download

actual from packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download
libvte-common_0.28.2-5_all.deb   from 
packages.debian.org/stretch/all/libvte-common/download
libvte9_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.debfrom 
packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/libvte9/download
python-vte_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.deb from 
packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/python-vte/download
install libboost-python.1.62.0_1.62.0+dfsg-10+b1_amd64.deb from 
packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/libboost-python1.62.0/download

actual from packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/libboost-python1.62.0/download
sudo apt-get install git debhelper dh-python libudev-dev python-yapps 
tcl8.6-dev tk8.6-dev libreadline-gplv2-dev asciidoc dblatex docbook-xsl 
dvipng graphviz groff imagemagick inkscape python-lxml source-highlight 
texlive-extra-utils texlive-font-utils texlive-fonts-recommended 
texlive-lang-cyrillic texlive-lang-french texlive-lang-german 
texlive-lang-polish texlive-lang-spanish texlive-latex-recommended 
w3c-linkchecker xsltproc asciidoc-dblatex python-dev python-tk 
libxmu-dev libglu1-mesa-dev libgl1-mesa-dev libgtk2.0-dev intltool 
autoconf libboost-python-dev libmodbus-dev libusb-1.0-0-dev yapps2 
bwidget libtk-img tclx python-glade2 python-gtkglext1 python-xlib 
python-configobj


This removed lots of packages and install still more...

 build 
git clone git://github.com/linuxcnc/linuxcnc.git linuxcnc-dev
cd linuxcnc-dev/src
./autogen.sh
./configure --with-realtime=uspace ( try no args, first )
make
sudo make setuid
cd ..
. ./scripts/rip-environment
linuxcnc ... OK
latency-test ==> ~4000 nsec


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

That's why back in the 80's when Light Machines designed the ProLight 2000 they 
used an Animatics servo control box equipped to run 3 or four axes. All the 
smarts are in the mill. All that's needed to just mill stuff is a steady stream 
of incoming G-Code and ACK back and forth so the thing will stop should 
whatever is streaming G-Code to it fail. I'm pretty certain the mill controller 
can handle stopping itself when endstop switches are hit. Those signals are 
sent to the computer so the software will stop. 
With that setup anything that can run a DOS program and have an absolute total 
lock on an RS232 port can operate a PLM2000. It also means nobody has bothered 
to produce any alternative software for the machines in ~30 years. Know how 
much of a PITA it is to find a working PC type computer capable of having EMS 
memory setup on it? Yup. The ProLight DOS software is so old it predates XMS 
memory.
I do have a ton of technical info, software etc for the Animatics controller. 
Got it from a guy at Moog-Animatics who stayed after their merger and still had 
an old backup drive. With that I'd think it should be fairly simple to add 
support to LCNC to at least have the same functionality as the DOS software. 
Just monitor the feedback from switches, estop, over-torque etrc, and push the 
G-code at it, while having a nicer UI and no problems with running out of 
conventional DOS memory or having to find an old box capable of EMS in order to 
handle large G-code files.
I've run mine off an old laptop booted off a USB floppy drive. It works but the 
memory space is so chopped up on laptops (and desktops with all the motherboard 
integrated peripherals) that there's no contiguous 64 kilobyte region of the 
Upper Memory Area (above 640K to 1024K) free for the page frame. There are some 
EMS implementations that can dynamically remap several sub-64K UMA into one 
virtual window, but there's still a minimum chunk size and it sure seems that 
PC manufacturers of the late 90's and up have gone to great effort to ensure 
the UMA of their products is so chunked up and fragmented there's just no way 
to do EMS.
An LCNC for motion controllers and drip-feed, stripped down of fancy internal 
functions (for example, the old controller can't do thread milling so there's 
no need for the control software to be able to do the math for that), would be 
a very welcome thing with vintage CNC. My big knee mill from 1990 (that I still 
haven't been able to get around to finishing the refit) originally had Anilam 
Crusader 2. The setup had a serial port, which I assume with a rudimentary DOS 
program a PC could have fed it a large stream of commands the Anilam system 
understood, of far greater length than could be stored on its little tape drive.

What would be more complex is doing thread milling on a mill that has no built 
in code to do such a thing. The control software would need to have a total 
list of all the mill's capabilities then would have to be able to translate 
from the interpolations for thread milling to a series of commands the mill 
does know in order to emulate the function, or it would have to spew forth a 
massive list of step by step XYZ moves, if the old machine can be commanded 
that way.

On Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 4:47:52 AM MST, Les Newell 
 wrote: 
If you just want to run a basic desktop router on the cheap get an 
Arduino and chuck GRBL on it. You now have an external board running a 
motion controller with the PC just feeding it g-code. It's as close to 
your 'printer' concept as you're going to get. You can even run it 
completely standalone off a SD card. Of course there is no way GRBL can 
handle a bigger more complex machine.  
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[Emc-users] Question for Peter C.W.

[Gene Heskett]

Hi Peter;

Working on my encoder, I have a 5 to 1 signal attenuation according the 
the halscope. I'm useing ATS-667's to sense the bull gear that turns 
with the spindle.  But the go-2, aka goop holding them in their pockets 
of a curved piece of alu was rotted by the 0w20 oil I use in the bronze 
bearinged spindle running out the rear of the bearing and migrating or 
being thrown up to the bracket holding the ATS-667's.

Putting it back together with jb-fastweld this time hoping it will 
withstand the inevitable oil, I hooked the halscope to hm2-encoder-0 a, 
b and index, and set it up to check quadrature.

quadrature is way off, but what concerns me in that these ATS-667's are 
running on 5 volts, normally switch rail to rail.  But at the 
hm2-encoder-0 a b or Index, I am seeing a decent square wave, but its 
only 1 volt p-p.  For all three ATS-667's.

Since that is the input, shouldn't I see pretty close to the same rail to 
rail coming out of the ATS-667's?

O, does the halscope need a different gain calibration when its 
running on an rpi4?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs

[Thomas D. Dean]

On 2020-02-12 13:44, Thomas D. Dean wrote:

On 2020-02-12 13:39, Thomas D. Dean wrote:

On 2020-02-12 00:03, Robert Murphy wrote:

Have you seen this on the forums

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/gmoccapy/36942-debian-10-dependencies?start=10#149669 





These two URL's show Error No such package.

packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download
packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/libboost-python1.62.0/download



I can not seem to catch-up with the rate of package move/removal.  Both 
of these packages have been removed from sid within the past month.




Found them in stretch.  I will try that...

Tom Dean


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Re: [Emc-users] question about glue

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 12 February 2020 14:52:38 David Berndt wrote:

> Not directly glue advise. But gear tooth sensor advise. Don't let the
> heads of those things rip off and go through my gear head mill's bevel
> gear teeth. Not pretty. No teeth broke but there is a surprising
> amount of quite hard metal in the middle of something like an Allegro
> ATS675 it seems. The gears were nowhere near silent before, but
> they're louder now for the experience.
>
They all contain a super strength for its size, ferrite based bias 
magnet, and its close to diamond in hardness. I'm not surprised it 
damaged the teeth that crushed it. Given enough time they will probably 
wear back silent. Might be measured in years though.

Some of the resultant powder could be removed in an ultrsonic cleaner but 
it would have to be a strong one, with a magnet in the bottom to collect 
the magnetic dust before it sticks to the gear again.

> -Dave
>
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:27:48 -0500, Gene Heskett
> 
>
> wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > I went tp play with the lathe after reboot the rpi4 with cpu_freq
> > raised to 800 megs.
> >
> > All of a sudden the spindle tach got noisy, then quit. removeing the
> > heads lid, I could see a good coat of the 5w20 I've been useing for
> > spindle oil had flung out of the inside face of the bronze bearing 
and
> > given my encoder assembly a good coat of it.
> >
> > Removeing it for a better look I found 2 of the 667's loose with
> > signs of the bull gear touching them, with one having vibrated
> > enough to break its wraping wire connections. They were glued into
> > pockets machined in the mounting bracket which if the glue worked
> > had them spaced about 5 thou away from the bull gear in a curved alu
> > bracket made of of 7075 scrap. I've made a wooden c clamp with a #6
> > wood screw which is currently sitting with the point of the screw in
> > the middle of the face of the loose index generating 667 after the
> > alu was well washed by acetone and then filling its pocket in the
> > bracket with shoe goop, same stuff as go-2.  And tomorrow I'll do
> > the same with the other.
> >
> > Cleaned up with acetone of course.
> >
> > Previous attempts to glue then in place with super glue were very
> > short lived, loose in a week.  Ditto with gelled super glue.
> >
> > The go-2 lasted about 2 years.
> >
> > What sort of glue can I use that can withstand an oily environment
> > of light 00w20 for many years?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in def+ense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Eric Keller]

my understanding is that most sin/cos are many lines per rev.  It's just
that they are fancier lines than an encoder made for incremental output.
The index marker is one line per rev.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 1:25 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Wednesday 12 February 2020 11:43:52 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> > A sin and cos are 90 degrees apart.  All you should need to do is
> > threshold the signal and you have A/B quadrature.Many ways to
> > threshold it but you want the one with least noise.
> >
> > A simple way to convert a sin wave to a square wave is to amplify then
> > clip it with diodes.   A comparator can also convert the signal.
> >
> > The point to remember is that sin/cos is quadrature and all that is
> > needed is some signal conditioning.
> >
> But the sin/cos is generally per rev or at best a small multiplier. So
> positional accuracy is obtained by some fawncy math converting the
> waveforms into degrees. Which usually involves some math and therefore
> lag. A 1000 line (or more) quadrature encoder can give you the info your
> PID wants much faster. Meaning you can use Pgain by the bucketfull. I am
> doing that in fact.
>
> In a pinch, one should not forget that a small stepper motor can make a
> good encoder driver by feeding its coils thru a high r buildout resistor
> in each wire, to a dual comparator setup for just enough historesis(sp?)
> to keep it quiet when stopped. An excellent jog dial can be constructed
> from old floppy drive step motors, very useable where you don't need an
> index pulse. Just feed the comparator output to an A/B quad decoder.
>
> Someplace in my midden heap I have box with 4 motors in it and some
> LM339's that I am going to finish a 4 axis jog pendent for my G0704. But
> I ran out of encoder inputs in my interface. A 5i25/7i76 plus a std bob.
> Thats only 2 decoders.
>
> And I'd also done away with the base thread, so no real way to use
> software encoders AND get real speeds. I could switch the 7i76 and bob
> out for a pair of 7i90's and a 6 pack of 7i42TA's but that would be both
> overkill and $400+.  What would I do with another 100 gpio's after I
> made all that work? Boggles what little mind I have left...
>
> > On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:46 PM andrew beck
> > 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Hi guys
> > >
> > > wondering if anyone has any ideas here.
> > >
> > > I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has
> > > a 5v sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor
> > > with a schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in
> > > New Zealand about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down
> > > torque.  If I run the card in full encoder closed loop control in
> > > the vfd I can get 200 percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for
> > > 30 seconds or so which is pretty useful.  I am currently just
> > > running the drive in Variable frequency control which rapidly looses
> > > torque at low rpm.
> > >
> > > Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder
> > > card that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble
> > > changing the encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of
> > > encoders that spin up to 10k rpm.
> > >
> > > Anyone have any suggestions?
> > >
> > > regards
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs

[Thomas D. Dean]

On 2020-02-12 13:39, Thomas D. Dean wrote:

On 2020-02-12 00:03, Robert Murphy wrote:

Have you seen this on the forums

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/gmoccapy/36942-debian-10-dependencies?start=10#149669 





These two URL's show Error No such package.

packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download
packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/libboost-python1.62.0/download



I can not seem to catch-up with the rate of package move/removal.  Both 
of these packages have been removed from sid within the past month.


Tom Dean


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs

[Thomas D. Dean]

On 2020-02-12 00:03, Robert Murphy wrote:

Have you seen this on the forums

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/gmoccapy/36942-debian-10-dependencies?start=10#149669 





These two URL's show Error No such package.

packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download
packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/libboost-python1.62.0/download

How do I access sid packages?

Tom Dean


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs

[Thomas D. Dean]

On 2020-02-12 00:03, Robert Murphy wrote:

Have you seen this on the forums

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/gmoccapy/36942-debian-10-dependencies?start=10#149669 





I saw this last night.  I plan to try this, today.

Thanks,
Tom Dean


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Re: [Emc-users] question about glue

[David Berndt]

Not directly glue advise. But gear tooth sensor advise. Don't let the  
heads of those things rip off and go through my gear head mill's bevel  
gear teeth. Not pretty. No teeth broke but there is a surprising amount of  
quite hard metal in the middle of something like an Allegro ATS675 it  
seems. The gears were nowhere near silent before, but they're louder now  
for the experience.



-Dave

On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:27:48 -0500, Gene Heskett   
wrote:



Greetings all;

I went tp play with the lathe after reboot the rpi4 with cpu_freq raised
to 800 megs.

All of a sudden the spindle tach got noisy, then quit. removeing the
heads lid, I could see a good coat of the 5w20 I've been useing for
spindle oil had flung out of the side face of the bronze bearing and
given my encoder assembly a good coat of it.

Removeing it for a better look I found 2 of the 667's loose with signs of
the bull gear touching them, with one having vibrated enough to break
its wraping wire connections. They were glued into pockets machined in
the mounting bracket which if the glue worked had them spaced about 5
thou away from the bull gear in a curved alu bracket made of of 7075
scrap. I've made a wooden c clamp with a #6 wood screw which is
currently sitting with the point of the screw in the middle of the face
of the loose index generating 667 after the alu was well washed by
acetone and then filling its pocket in the bracket with shoe goop, same
stuff as go-2.  And tomorrow I'll do the same with the other.

Cleaned up with acetone of course.

Previous attempts to glue then in place with super glue were very short
lived, loose in a week.  Ditto with gelled super glue.

The go-2 lasted about 2 years.

What sort of glue can I use that can withstand an oily environment of
light 00w20 for many years?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] question about glue

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 12 February 2020 12:14:24 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/11/2020 10:49 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 11 February 2020 21:55:55 Jon Elson wrote:
> >> I used either PC-7, in the red and black metal cans.  I have
> >> not had any problems so far.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >
> > And where might I src that Jon? I don't recall seeing that at my
> > usual git'n places.
>
> My local Ace hardware at least USED to have the PC7 in 4 Oz
> metal cans.  I see they now also
> have it on hanging cards with some smaller (plastic?) tubs.
> Just look for PC-7 it is fairly common
> hardware stuff.  I expect that JB Weld will also work fine.

My local Ace up the slab 20 some miles in Bridgeport folded a couple 
years back, so my closest is Lowes in Buckhannon, also about 20 miles, 
NAPA and TSC are the locals, but TSC has almost nothing in glues except 
maybe an old carb of jbweld, Advance Auto might be worth checking, next 
door to TSC. I've got to hit wallies for Dee some more yogurt yet today 
so I'll check there and Advance while I'm out. In the meantime the 
encoder is under clamps with some jbweld but I got to trace and restore 
the ats667 wiring for the last one that came loose.  Amazingly it did 
not grind up the ats667's. Even loose in the slots they were trapped in 
the pockets well enough to protect them from major damage.  That faint 
knocking sound? Me, knocking on wood while I took it out. lol.

Thanks Jon.

> Jon
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 at 06:46, andrew beck  wrote:

>
> wondering if anyone has any ideas here.


Just to add to the mix, I have done this with an Arduino.
In my application I was also generating the excitation voltage for a
resolver, so it was a little more involved.

Fundamentally it is two analogue reads and an atan2()

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 12 February 2020 11:43:52 Chris Albertson wrote:

> A sin and cos are 90 degrees apart.  All you should need to do is
> threshold the signal and you have A/B quadrature.Many ways to
> threshold it but you want the one with least noise.
>
> A simple way to convert a sin wave to a square wave is to amplify then
> clip it with diodes.   A comparator can also convert the signal.
>
> The point to remember is that sin/cos is quadrature and all that is
> needed is some signal conditioning.
>
But the sin/cos is generally per rev or at best a small multiplier. So 
positional accuracy is obtained by some fawncy math converting the 
waveforms into degrees. Which usually involves some math and therefore 
lag. A 1000 line (or more) quadrature encoder can give you the info your 
PID wants much faster. Meaning you can use Pgain by the bucketfull. I am 
doing that in fact.

In a pinch, one should not forget that a small stepper motor can make a 
good encoder driver by feeding its coils thru a high r buildout resistor 
in each wire, to a dual comparator setup for just enough historesis(sp?) 
to keep it quiet when stopped. An excellent jog dial can be constructed 
from old floppy drive step motors, very useable where you don't need an 
index pulse. Just feed the comparator output to an A/B quad decoder.

Someplace in my midden heap I have box with 4 motors in it and some 
LM339's that I am going to finish a 4 axis jog pendent for my G0704. But 
I ran out of encoder inputs in my interface. A 5i25/7i76 plus a std bob. 
Thats only 2 decoders.  

And I'd also done away with the base thread, so no real way to use 
software encoders AND get real speeds. I could switch the 7i76 and bob 
out for a pair of 7i90's and a 6 pack of 7i42TA's but that would be both 
overkill and $400+.  What would I do with another 100 gpio's after I 
made all that work? Boggles what little mind I have left...

> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:46 PM andrew beck
> 
>
> wrote:
> > Hi guys
> >
> > wondering if anyone has any ideas here.
> >
> > I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has
> > a 5v sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor
> > with a schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in
> > New Zealand about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down
> > torque.  If I run the card in full encoder closed loop control in
> > the vfd I can get 200 percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for
> > 30 seconds or so which is pretty useful.  I am currently just
> > running the drive in Variable frequency control which rapidly looses
> > torque at low rpm.
> >
> > Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder
> > card that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble
> > changing the encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of
> > encoders that spin up to 10k rpm.
> >
> > Anyone have any suggestions?
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > ___
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> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Thomas J Powderly]

Jon, I cant find US dist either

maybe the TI chips are better is the states

http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidua05a/tidua05a.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/df/tidrf54/tidrf54.pdf

hth

tomP




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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Jon Elson]

On 02/12/2020 05:21 AM, Thomas J Powderly wrote:

hello

BTW if your encoder is 11uA ( not 5V not 1Vp/p )

then the last diagram here may be of use

http://pdf.dzsc.com/RLX/RLXA2510.pdf


Hey, this is a GREAT chip!  But, can you actually buy them?  
All I see are Russia and AliBaba, no US distributors.


Thanks,

Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Jon Elson]

On 02/12/2020 12:43 AM, andrew beck wrote:

Hi guys

wondering if anyone has any ideas here.

I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a 5v
sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor with a
schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in New Zealand
about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down torque.  If I run
the card in full encoder closed loop control in the vfd I can get 200
percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for 30 seconds or so which is
pretty useful.  I am currently just running the drive in Variable frequency
control which rapidly looses torque at low rpm.

Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder card
that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble changing the
encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of encoders that spin up to
10k rpm.


Is this a current-output encoder or a voltage-output one? 
Heidenhain makes both.  For current-output,
average current is 11 uA or so.  So, you can run that 
current into a 1K resistor and get 11 mV.
Feed it into a comparator with the other input set to 5.5 mV 
and you should get a nice square wave.
Adjust the threshold voltage to get a 50% square wave and 
you are done.  You probably need
3 of these circuits to handle A, B and Z, if provided.  If 
not, then you need something a little more

tricky if you want a spindle index signal.

If this is too noisy, change the 1K resistor to 10 K, then 
you will get 110 mV output, and up your threshold to 55 mV.


If the encoder is voltage-output, then you just get rid of 
the resistor.


How many "pulses" does the encoder have?  Just one?  I hope 
not, that would make this scheme not
work well.  Then, interpolation would be required.  But, I 
can't imagine how to make a reliable optical encoder

with just one pulse/rev.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] question about glue

[Jon Elson]

On 02/11/2020 10:49 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 11 February 2020 21:55:55 Jon Elson wrote:



I used either PC-7, in the red and black metal cans.  I have
not had any problems so far.

Jon

And where might I src that Jon? I don't recall seeing that at my usual
git'n places.



My local Ace hardware at least USED to have the PC7 in 4 Oz 
metal cans.  I see they now also
have it on hanging cards with some smaller (plastic?) tubs.  
Just look for PC-7 it is fairly common

hardware stuff.  I expect that JB Weld will also work fine.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Chris Albertson]

A sin and cos are 90 degrees apart.  All you should need to do is threshold
the signal and you have A/B quadrature.Many ways to threshold it but
you want the one with least noise.

A simple way to convert a sin wave to a square wave is to amplify then clip
it with diodes.   A comparator can also convert the signal.

The point to remember is that sin/cos is quadrature and all that is needed
is some signal conditioning.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:46 PM andrew beck 
wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> wondering if anyone has any ideas here.
>
> I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a 5v
> sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor with a
> schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in New Zealand
> about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down torque.  If I run
> the card in full encoder closed loop control in the vfd I can get 200
> percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for 30 seconds or so which is
> pretty useful.  I am currently just running the drive in Variable frequency
> control which rapidly looses torque at low rpm.
>
> Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder card
> that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble changing the
> encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of encoders that spin up to
> 10k rpm.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> regards
>
> Andrew
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Thomas J Powderly]

gene,

On 2/12/20 10:38 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 12 February 2020 05:55:34 you wrote:
...

so make sure you know the full heidenhain part number when hunting
info

that means the full identifier is more than just 1 box on the label )

Yes, I've noted the frustration creation of finding info on the
Heidenhain encoders on the list over the years. Enough that I'd be
reticent to buy them as they seem to have a random number generator in
naming them.



hahaha gene,

its really simple once you read the book "howto identify that heidenhain 
thingy."


or ask a Heidenhain.

I think there's a lot of stuff posted to inet and ebay etc with 
serialnumbers as identifiers


tomp

here's the skinny on the id label

you need the product name and identity number

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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[dave engvall]

Check the max frequency on any encoder you look at. The inexpensive ones 
max out at 200 K. Frequency is not a problem is you want to throw $$ at 
it. It is very hard to win; lots of counts at the high end but not many 
when you are creeping. There just ain't no free lunch.


Dave


On 2/11/20 10:43 PM, andrew beck wrote:

Hi guys

wondering if anyone has any ideas here.

I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a 5v
sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor with a
schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in New Zealand
about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down torque.  If I run
the card in full encoder closed loop control in the vfd I can get 200
percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for 30 seconds or so which is
pretty useful.  I am currently just running the drive in Variable frequency
control which rapidly looses torque at low rpm.

Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder card
that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble changing the
encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of encoders that spin up to
10k rpm.

Anyone have any suggestions?

regards

Andrew

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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[dave engvall]

http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=31&osCsid=2n4hbnn63oqt9ncdlervb08tv6


On 2/12/20 1:52 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 12 February 2020 01:49:34 andrew beck wrote:


the option I just thought of while googling is, can I convert the sin
cos format in to a normal TTL or something like that?  even 1000 ppr
would be heaps it is only on the spindle.

One thing you might try, is to use a couple of those $2 rs485 to ttl
boards. I bought an encoder to put on the rear of the spindle motor,
only to find on its arrival it had a balanced output of only a few
millivolts, nothing ttl about it.  So I made a small hammond box with
two of those in it to translate it to ttl for feeding the encoder in the
5i25.  Works a treat.  But because the sin/cos is generally magneticly
generated, its signal may get weak enough to miss count at very low
speeds, which might lead to enough error to make sloppy threads when
rigid tapping with a peck routine. It might miscount at the turnaround
at the bottom of the hole.


I just want to get the data into the vfd so It knows when the motors
is slowing down.  and so I can rigid tap and the existing encoder is a
high quality heidenhian one so might be good to keep it if it is not
too much trouble.

ISTR Jon has a board for that, see at PicoSystems.com.


regards

Andrew

On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 7:43 PM andrew beck 

wrote:

Hi guys

wondering if anyone has any ideas here.

I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has
a 5v sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor
with a schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in
New Zealand about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down
torque.  If I run the card in full encoder closed loop control in
the vfd I can get 200 percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for
30 seconds or so which is pretty useful.  I am currently just
running the drive in Variable frequency control which rapidly looses
torque at low rpm.

Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder
card that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble
changing the encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of
encoders that spin up to 10k rpm.

Anyone have any suggestions?

regards

Andrew

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Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] closing the loop in linuxcnc with a 7i76 mesa card and step direction control

[Todd Zuercher]

The machine I am using this on was already set up and running Linuxcnc, but 
only using software stepping (but not using a parallel port for the I/O).  I 
was having a lot of trouble getting a good tune on the servos as well.  At that 
time the 7i85S, was the only option for hardware step generation and encoder 
feedback.  And since the machine was already set up and running Linuxcnc I 
didn't need to worry about hooking up other gpio.  Unfortunately once the 
existing PC dies, I will probably have to buy something else for the gpio, 
because it is using a rather expensive ISA card for that.  Not to mention the 
fact that I can't seem to get a real time os newer than our old Ubuntu 10.04 
.ISO to run on that ISA/PCI slot motherboard.  I'll probably just end up buying 
a 7i84 and scrap all of the old IO boards that go with that old ISA card, when 
that day comes. 

The 7i76 only has one encoder input and the 7i76e or any of the other Ethernet 
cards didn't exist yet (at that time).   The 7i84 is a Smart Serial card and is 
only serviced at servo thread speeds, so it's only good for gpio with no 
encoder inputs (the two MPG inputs don't count because they aren't fast enough 
for servo use).  I think the 7i84 is pretty much exactly the same as the built 
in GPIO on the 7i76.  

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: andrew beck  
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 7:30 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] closing the loop in linuxcnc with a 7i76 mesa card and 
step direction control

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Hey Todd.

Was there a reason you went to a 7i85 rather than a 7i76 and 7i84?

All I can think of is you didn't need the extra io of the 7i76.  So could do it 
with only two cards.

Regards

Andrew

On Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 3:11 AM Todd Zuercher  wrote:

> I'm using a 5i25+7i85s to run a large gang router with step/dir servos.
> This machine has a lot of mechanical warts that have made getting a 
> good tune on the servos difficult.  Having the encoder feedback made 
> tuning a little easier, and saves me from having to break out the 
> o-scope to work on it.
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: andrew beck 
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 7:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] closing the loop in linuxcnc with a 7i76 mesa 
> card and step direction control
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Awesome Todd
>
> What Mesa card did you use?  And do you mind if I pick your brains on 
> this rather than  reinventing the wheel.  I would love to see a config 
> that works so I can compare it with what I have and make the needed changes.
>
> Also did you find the motion was uneven or did it just work as expected.
>
> Regards
>
> Andrew
>
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 11:20 AM Todd Zuercher 
> wrote:
>
> > It works very much similar to running them with an analog input.  
> > The encoder feedback can also be handy for double checking the 
> > tuning of your servo drives.
> >
> > You simply disconnect the position feedback from the stepgen and use 
> > the feedback from the encoders to connect to the PID and the joint
> position-fb.
> >
> > You will need to tune the feedback loop, P=1000 will no longer be 
> > valid, and will likely have to be significantly less (guess 1/2-2/3)
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: andrew beck 
> > Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 4:46 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] closing the loop in linuxcnc with a 7i76 
> > mesa card and step direction control
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > Actually all I want to do is be able to home to index.  Which I 
> > might be able to do now.  As my servo can output a encoder Z pulse.
> >
> > And I want to have linuxcnc remember where it is if I disable the servos.
> > That is now a massive deal but I get a bit sick of continously 
> > homing the machine every time I push the E stop in and disable power 
> > to servos.  It would be nice to have the encoders still counting 
> > once the servos are disabled. ( drives would still be on just not 
> > running a PID
> > loop.)
> >
> > And yes I was wondering what trying to run a PID loop on a position 
> > servo loop causes.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 2:14 AM andy pugh  wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 at 10:30, andrew beck 
> > > 
> > > wrote:
> > > > On the back burner though I want to
> > > "close the loop" back into linuxcnc with a 7i84 mesa card I think.
> > > Has anyone done that before with a step direction control system?
> > >
> > > What do you anticipate ga

Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 at 06:46, andrew beck  wrote:

I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a 5v
> sin cos encoder on it.
>

Try looking on eBay for a Heidenhain EXE box. (Though I am not sure that
they work with 5V sin/cos)


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Eric Keller]

I think the 5v are newer than the ones I have researched in the past.
Don't they have a converter card for ttl/quadrature? They certainly do for
the older types. People seem to have used the TIDA-00178 converter board.


On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 1:46 AM andrew beck 
wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> wondering if anyone has any ideas here.
>
> I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a 5v
> sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor with a
> schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in New Zealand
> about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down torque.  If I run
> the card in full encoder closed loop control in the vfd I can get 200
> percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for 30 seconds or so which is
> pretty useful.  I am currently just running the drive in Variable frequency
> control which rapidly looses torque at low rpm.
>
> Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder card
> that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble changing the
> encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of encoders that spin up to
> 10k rpm.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> regards
>
> Andrew
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[Les Newell]

You care where the loop are because if they are in your PC you need a
special PC with a special OS.


Special PC? Pretty much any PC will work. I guess you could call the OS 
special but not nearly as special as an RTOS on an external processor. 
If you are really that terrified of Linux, run LCNC headless and write a 
Windows or web app to talk to it. The LCNC PC then becomes your external 
CPU box.



But look at how most 3D printers work.
They are just like 4 axis milling machines, typically using 4 stepper
motors and no one needs a special PC or OS to make prints.   In all cases
the designers have pushed all the real-time function out to a $2 chip.


That $2 chip is absolutely packed to the gills and it does one job - 
running a basic 3D printer. It's so full that if you want to add any 
features you have to take others out to make room. The whole ethos of 
LinuxCNC is to be versatile. Want to run an automatic tool changer? No 
problem. Does your machine have an electronically controlled 3 speed 
gearbox? Again it's easy enough to add functionality to do that. Servos? 
stepper? Any mix of the two? Again no problem. I've used quite a few 
different hobby grade controllers and for versatility LCNC blows them 
all out of the water.


If you just want to run a basic desktop router on the cheap get an 
Arduino and chuck GRBL on it. You now have an external board running a 
motion controller with the PC just feeding it g-code. It's as close to 
your 'printer' concept as you're going to get. You can even run it 
completely standalone off a SD card. Of course there is no way GRBL can 
handle a bigger more complex machine.


Admittedly these days you can get slightly more expensive 32 bit CPUs 
that could run HAL. Moving the real-time stuff to such a CPU is doable 
with the investment of enough man hours. Who is going to provide those 
man hours? A PC is a convenient, cheap source of a very powerful CPU 
with a bunch of storage and useful interfaces. You can run LCNC on older 
PCs that are often given away for free.



Doing the work on the PC under Linux was a cost
cutting measure but today it dramatically raises the cost because of the
difficulty of interfacing a PC to a milling machine.


Are you talking about the cost of something like a Mesa card? Your $2 
processor doesn't have nearly enough I/Os to do the job on a decent CNC 
installation. By the time you get a processor with lots of I/Os, add the 
cost of a board and the support components needed you are likely to 
easily exceed the cost of a Mesa system. Arduinos for example are dirt 
cheap because they are manufactured in vast quantities. CNC is a pretty 
niche market and any board specifically designed for CNC use isn't going 
to have the low cost you get from quantity.



Another example of real-time motion control software "done right" is
Cleanflight or BetaFlight (both are nearly the same)


Again, they have one job so the code can be carefully optimized for that 
task. CNC machines vary a lot so your control needs to be versatile. If 
you want to add some new functionality to your flight controller you're 
looking at a lot of work.


There are massively more drone users than hobby CNC users. Therefore 
there are more people willing to donate their time into making 
Cleanflight etc as slick as they are.  If enough people were to work on 
LinuxCNC it could become very slick with a pretty GUI to configure it. 
The problem is that there aren't enough people willing to donate the 
man-hours needed. Even then the GUI wouldn't be able to handle the more 
esoteric setups. Are you willing to dedicate a year's work to the 
project? You could get a lot done in that time.


Les


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[Emc-users] Fwd: Re: trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Thomas J Powderly]

sorry gene i didnt see i sent this private



 Forwarded Message 
Subject: 	Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle 
motor to schiender vfd

Date:   Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:55:34 +0700
From:   Thomas J Powderly 
To: Gene Heskett 



hello
On 2/12/20 4:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 12 February 2020 01:49:34 andrew beck wrote:
the option I just thought of while googling is, can I convert the sin 
cos format in to a normal TTL or something like that? even 1000 ppr 
would be heaps it is only on the spindle. 
One thing you might try, is to use a couple of those $2 rs485 to ttl 
boards. I bought an encoder to put on the rear of the spindle motor, 
only to find on its arrival it had a balanced output of only a few 
millivolts, nothing ttl about it. So I made a small hammond box with 
two of those in it to translate it to ttl for feeding the encoder in 
the 5i25. Works a treat. But because the sin/cos is generally 
magneticly generated, its signal may get weak enough to miss count at 
very low speeds, which might lead to enough error to make sloppy 
threads when rigid tapping with a peck routine. It might miscount at 
the turnaround at the bottom of the hole.
I just want to get the data into the vfd so It knows when the motors 
is slowing down. and so I can rigid tap and the existing encoder is a 
high quality heidenhian one so might be good to keep it if it is not 
too much trouble. 
ISTR Jon has a board for that, see at PicoSystems.com. 


I used heidenhain scales and encoders exclusively , but on heidhenain tnc.
heres something relevant
from 
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/deckel-maho-aciera-abene-mills/deckel-nc-upgrade-cons-pros-299846-print/index11.html


"""
Here is what I will be using to interface my existing scales to LinuxCNC 
via MESA hardware:

IC Haus TW28 Interpolator
"""

thats is talking about an interface chip designed to read the sin cos 
output of the heidenhain encoder.

I do not think it is what's needed for the newer 'endat' encoders.
I have seen simpler encoder interfaces but they simply made a single 
count per transition
where thes ichaus chips interpolate same as the heidenhain nc's did, 
giving you many counts per transition


https://www.ichaus.de/keyword/Interpolators

( the newer scales and encoder maybe endat and may use biss ( past my 
field op years ,

AndyPugh and Jon may have some threads on the subject

so make sure you know the full heidenhain part number when hunting info

that means the full identifier is more than just 1 box on the label )


regards Andrew On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 7:43 PM andrew beck 
 wrote:
Hi guys wondering if anyone has any ideas here. I have a heidanhain 
spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a 5v sin cos encoder 
on it. I am currently controlling the motor with a schiender vfd. I 
am talking to the support engineers here in New Zealand about buying 
a encoder card so I can get better low down torque. If I run the 
card in full encoder closed loop control in the vfd I can get 200 
percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for 30 seconds or so which 
is pretty useful. I am currently just running the drive in Variable 
frequency control which rapidly looses torque at low rpm. Anyway 
they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder card 
that is suitable for sin cos encoders. I have no trouble changing 
the encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of encoders that 
spin up to 10k rpm. Anyone have any suggestions? regards Andrew 
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Cheers, Gene Heskett 

hth
tomp


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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Thomas J Powderly]

hello

BTW if your encoder is 11uA ( not 5V not 1Vp/p )

then the last diagram here may be of use

http://pdf.dzsc.com/RLX/RLXA2510.pdf


heidenhain encoders are good equipment, it'd be sad to change it out.

hth tomp



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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 12 February 2020 01:49:34 andrew beck wrote:

> the option I just thought of while googling is, can I convert the sin
> cos format in to a normal TTL or something like that?  even 1000 ppr
> would be heaps it is only on the spindle.

One thing you might try, is to use a couple of those $2 rs485 to ttl 
boards. I bought an encoder to put on the rear of the spindle motor, 
only to find on its arrival it had a balanced output of only a few 
millivolts, nothing ttl about it.  So I made a small hammond box with 
two of those in it to translate it to ttl for feeding the encoder in the 
5i25.  Works a treat.  But because the sin/cos is generally magneticly 
generated, its signal may get weak enough to miss count at very low 
speeds, which might lead to enough error to make sloppy threads when 
rigid tapping with a peck routine. It might miscount at the turnaround 
at the bottom of the hole.

> I just want to get the data into the vfd so It knows when the motors
> is slowing down.  and so I can rigid tap and the existing encoder is a
> high quality heidenhian one so might be good to keep it if it is not
> too much trouble.

ISTR Jon has a board for that, see at PicoSystems.com.

> regards
>
> Andrew
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 7:43 PM andrew beck 
>
> wrote:
> > Hi guys
> >
> > wondering if anyone has any ideas here.
> >
> > I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has
> > a 5v sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor
> > with a schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in
> > New Zealand about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down
> > torque.  If I run the card in full encoder closed loop control in
> > the vfd I can get 200 percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for
> > 30 seconds or so which is pretty useful.  I am currently just
> > running the drive in Variable frequency control which rapidly looses
> > torque at low rpm.
> >
> > Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder
> > card that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble
> > changing the encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of
> > encoders that spin up to 10k rpm.
> >
> > Anyone have any suggestions?
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Andrew
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 12 February 2020 01:43:33 andrew beck wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> wondering if anyone has any ideas here.
>
> I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a
> 5v sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor with a
> schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in New
> Zealand about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down
> torque.  If I run the card in full encoder closed loop control in the
> vfd I can get 200 percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for 30
> seconds or so which is pretty useful.  I am currently just running the
> drive in Variable frequency control which rapidly looses torque at low
> rpm.
>
> Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder
> card that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble
> changing the encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of encoders
> that spin up to 10k rpm.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions?

I have an encoder, not a sin/cos, but an A/B/Z quadrature on my Sheldon 
lathes bull gear. I because the vfd is pretty stiff, haven't even a PID 
in its circuit.  But by programming my 1.5 hp rated clone vfd to fit the 
motor, specifically to boost the low frequencies but limited to the 
nameplate FLA amps, can run a 1hp 3 phase down to 5hz while cutting 
steel for long enough to get the job done, nearly an hour in one 
instance while still being able to lay a hand on the motor at the end of 
the job. And the encoder there is only used for threading, including 
rigid tapping.

I bought a 6040 gantry machine a year ago, it all ran on 120 volts, but 
the electronics were junk, so I junked them and fitted new. Including 
locating a 120 volt clone vfd, whose manual was somewhat less than 
useful, and it took a months worth of experimentation to find the 
registers that controlled that, but I did finally get that water cooled 
24k motor to turn 500 revs while plowing a 1/8" mill thru 1/8" of alu 
with mister coolant. No encoder on/in that motor. So it will never do 
rigid tapping. I have dreams of carving gunstocks with it eventually.

Generally speaking, the slip angle of hz vs speed seems to be a fixed 
thing depending on the coil current the vfd can get into the motor, up 
to the motors FLA, What currant you can get at the higher speeds is 
limited by the coils inductance, so by the time its up to 200hz on the 
lathe, coil current is under an amp and the slip angle becomes quite 
large, to the point where an increase in the hz isn't matched by an 
actual increase in the motor rpms. That particular motor came off a 50 
yo air compressor, so its first intro to a vfd was when I hooked it up 
about 4 years ago after putting fresh bearings in it.  Definitely NOT an 
inverter rated motor, but it still gets the job done.
 
What I'm saying is that due to the slip angles at low speed, unless the 
vfd is properly programmed, low speed torque is far more a function of 
vfd programming than it will be obtained by putting the vfd's hz under 
PID control. If the excitation current isn't there, neither will the 
available torque to maintain the desired speed. 

For water cooled 24k motors it can be educational to stick an lcd 
thermometer on the side of the coolant tank although a 4 gallon tank 
takes a while to respond.

So can an amprobe on a motor leg. Getting the low speed boost up to 
nameplate FLA will be much more helpfull than the encoder feedback.  And 
beware of amprobes that lie like a rug at low frequencies, one of mine 
shows half the current actually passing at 30 hz.  Its a 50 yo genuine 
Amprobe. Only accurate at 60 hz.

Check it with an auto headlamp possibly with a shunting R in series with 
a motor coil, its brightness will NOT lie to you like the amprobes can. 
But its uncalibrated at any hz, so if in doubt. check its brightness at 
60 hz, and the correct currant, then maintain that brightness as the 
hertz goes down. You are then actually delivering the same current if 
the headlamp is the same brightness.

HTH Andrew.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs

[Robert Murphy]

Have you seen this on the forums

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/gmoccapy/36942-debian-10-dependencies?start=10#149669

On 12/2/20 2:24 pm, Thomas D. Dean wrote:

On 2020-02-05 01:57, andy pugh wrote:

On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 at 04:25, Thomas D. Dean 
wrote:


How do I do a clean install of buster rtai and llinuxcnc?


Experimental at the moment. But:
1) Install Buster
2) Download the .debs at www.linuxcnc.org/temp
3) Install the Linux-image and Linux-headers debs
  sudo apt-get install ./linux-image-4.14.148-rtai-amd64.deb
  sudo apt-get install ./linux-headers-4.14.148-rtai-amd64.deb
4) Reboot and choose the new kernel in the grub menu.
5) Install the remaining .debs

This will give you a version of 2.8 that is a few months old. Buster
is currently being trained to build preemp-rt versions on Buster.



I did this and failed.  There are unmet dependencies.

I installed Debian 10 from debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
Boot Debian 10 - OK
sudo apt-get install ./linux-image-4.14.148-rtai-amd64.deb - OK
sudo apt-get install ./linux-headers-4.14.148-rtai-amd64.deb - OK
Boot linux-image-4.14.148-rtai-amd64 - There seems to be some problem
  with the gnome display.  I had to use ctrl-alt-f2 and then alt-f1 to
  get the display to start.  This problem repeated on subsequent boots.

# uname -a
Linux sherline 4.14.148-rtai-amd64 #2 SMP PREEMPT Sat Nov 9 16:29:10
GMT 2019 x86_64 GNU/Linux

# sudo apt-get install ./linuxcnc_2.8.0~pre1_amd64.deb \
   ./linuxcnc-dev_2.8.0~pre1_amd64.deb
...
 linuxcnc : Depends: libboost-python1.62.0 but it is not installable
    Depends: python-gtksourceview2 but it is not installable
    Depends: python-vte but it is not installable
    Recommends: hostmot2-firmware-all but it is not installable
 linuxcnc-dev : Depends: yapps2-runtime but it is not installable

These packages do not seem to be in the Debian 10 repository,
including contrib and non-free.  They were installed when the .deb
files were generated.

Where are they?

Tom Dean


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