Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
I have been in the open source arena for a number for years now in which investors come and go - some even successful based on the business plan and innovation. In my opinion the only way this kind of investment idea to make it a viable business is to fork the the project, re-brand it, and continue a development path by taking the kinks out and adding commercial viability. Some good examples of such a business model step from companies like Apple, Novell, UML Vendors, etc. who have re-branded themselves, and also manage two brands of the software fork - commercial and open source - taking what is good from open source fork and implementing it in the commercial product. The reason for advocating and requesting for business plans may have to do with who is more creative to make a viable business out of this venure - so soliciting business plans by venture capitalists is like competition of the business minds out here. Just my 2 cents here :-) Shaffin. On 12/09/2010 08:44 AM, Kent A. Reed wrote: On 12/9/2010 12:50 AM, Edward Bernard wrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. My comment? An unknown entity using an unrevealing email address makes a vague offer on an open mail list to finance someone to create a company to do something, provided the someone does all the work developing a viable business plan. Sorry, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy. I may be an incorrigible skeptic, but doesn't it seem reasonable to think anyone serious about forming a Red Hat of CNC would directly approach the core EMC2 developers instead of floating a proposal that has all the earmarks of a phishing expedition? Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, Kent PS - perusal of the EMC2 mail list archives will turn up a number of past conversations about the possibility of commercial support of EMC2 which I feel no need to rehash. -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Lotusphere 2011 Register now for Lotusphere 2011 and learn how to connect the dots, take your collaborative environment to the next level, and enter the era of Social Business. http://p.sf.net/sfu/lotusphere-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Bootstrapping is not the issue. I've already got a business. $20 will start you in some businesses, but don't try and become an industrial contractor with that. The issue is the ability to go after larger jobs, and for that you need capital and equipment. Anyway taking money from the government is immoral... Seriously? If that is the case then most of the nation is immoral. If you accept a tax credit, then you are accepting money from the gov. that demand is now in Asia. If I was still young I would move to where the capital is. No doubt but much of that demand is now not in the US and that is a real issue for those of us still trying to do business here. Asia is a mixed bag. Ever do work in China? I haven't but I have friends who have spent months there and only go there because their jobs require it to do installations. The working conditions are oftentimes very bad. One guy I know got very sick while there and had to be hospitalized there and when he got back. Bad food and water. But things might be changing. I heard the other day that GE is bringing back all of their appliance manufacturing to the US from abroad. It turns out that the cost of shipping and the problems with quality control in 3rd world countries makes manufacturing there must less attractive than they thought. I've heard the same from a couple of my customers who shut down their US production and were buying containers worth of parts from China. The items were dirt cheap but the quality was unpredictable. Sometimes 50% of the parts would be rejects yet their chinese suppliers would refuse to compensate them for the bad parts arguing that they should have been good enough. Dave On 12/11/2010 4:25 PM, Karl Schmidt wrote: On 12/11/2010 07:00 AM, Gary Corlew wrote: No, but there is a program from the government where you can get a very low interest loan and not start paying back for five years. This is what I have been told by a friend, The company I work for is trying to get in on it Why not figure a way to bootstrap your business - I started out with $20 of capital in 1979. If you think you need 'other peoples money' to get it off the ground, your chance of success is quite low. Anyway taking money from the government is immoral... you are taking the money of people that work at McDonald’s by force. If you can solve peoples problems, the money is always there. If, on the other hand, you have an idea, spend great sums trying to sell it - you won't go far. Listen closely- your customers will tell you about their problems. There is a demand for people that can get machines to produce wealth - unfortunately, by restricting the free trade of labor, that demand is now in Asia. If I was still young I would move to where the capital is. Karl Schmidt EMail k...@xtronics.com Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com 3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089 Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434 Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there - Will Rogers -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Gentlemen, Heh - way OT - sorry - I just cannot resist Anyway taking money from the government is immoral... Seriously? If that is the case then most of the nation is immoral. If you accept a tax credit, then you are accepting money from the gov. The immoral part of taking money from the government is that the government has money to give away. The government (taxes under threat of violence) (takes under threat of violence) (steals under threat of violence) (synonymity here) money from each one of us and then determines what the government thinks is the best use of it and gives it away to further the goals of the government. THESE are the immoral/corrupt acts. Our government is a fraud. Our banking system is a fraud. Our legal system is a fraud. Feel free to detect a small amount of cynicism and angst in my position. Government is no longer of/by/for the people. Government (a collective term for government,banking,industry,judiciary) is taking from/exploiting the people. This is normal and history has seen this cycle many times. The driving force turning us into a 'third' (and I use this term with respect for the third world nations) is our corruption is being revealed. Now we (the general population) will have access to the corruption because it will be on top of the table rather than under the table as it has been in this system. This will make the 'corruption' fair, give each individual access AND self control it to a proper level. The EMC2 group of individuals is one of the elite groups of the world. A group that will work on a project or projects to better their life is different than so many other sets of people including many manufacturers. When an industry/group only survives or thrives because of government subsidy that industry is not a valid use of money/time/intellect. This includes some of the largest corporations/universities in the world. The sacrifice of time/money/intellect of the EMC2 group sets it apart from most of the rest of the world. I acknowledge EMC2 uses wild/free code released by the government but EMC2 could/would have been done anyway. It may have just taken longer. I personally had determined I needed a free/software machine control and was searching for just this type of project when I found EMC/EMC2. My first attempt with EMC was an abortion. I had determined to write my own (with help from people I paid) and release it. I looked at EMC again and found EMC2. This group beat me to the punch. The more I am involved with the EMC2 group the more I respect each and every player. We (I include myself in this) are the type of foundation that will be there to rebuild this country after TSHTF. What an amazing group to align yourself with. People that will get up off their butts and go do something to better themselves and others and not depend/wait on the government to come along and provide. I realize there exists an esoteric/selfish side of this group and these types of groups. I also have that attribute. Sadly, we are all human and not all perfect (I am only speaking of myself here) :) . I still believe this type of people is the best to associate with. I am sickened by the developments of our government but I also acknowledge we (this includes everyone in these United States of America) have the government we deserve/want. It will not change until our 'wanter' changes. Our collective 'wanter' is about to change and it will be dramatic. The type of people in the EMC2 group will welcome the change. MUCH of the rest will hate it. There will not be a 'government' program to provide the basics when times are tough. Get ready for a rough ride through the next few years. whew!! thanks for listening Stuart -- dos centavos -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Guys, I am sure that we are all intelligent people and every one of us has a few opinions about government, economy, and perhaps even some hot button political issues. Another newsgroup that I participated in, Alt.machines.cnc is certifiably dead for the sole reason of political spamming. rec.crafts.metalworking, is on the verge of dying because of so much political stuff posted there. . I would really hate the same to happen to this forum. i -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Jack Coats wrote: This thread has got me thinking. I am starting to believe that selling an appliance, that happens to run EMC2 might be the best way. Linksys did it with the imfamous WRT routers that run Linux, so using EMC2 in a similar way by putting it in a 'controller box' that could be a full computer or just a 'headless controller' that takes in SD cards with g-code on it. Or go the other way and make it fully network attached with all the touch screens, web cams, and other gizmoz anyone wants to attach. Then it is a 'product' and you aren't selling EMC2, or just the service of providing configured EMC2. ... I wonder if this would 'sell better' than a software only product? Yes, I'm certain of this. Look at Centroid/Ajax, they have very much a similar business model. They have a box which has CPU, power supplies and servo drives. You pick motors and other minor accessories from a catalog, add to the basic control box and send them payment. A big box comes, you unpack and attach to the machine, plug cables into connectors and turn it on, set a few things like travel limits, and it is ready to accept G-code. I seriously doubt anybody could make a real business selling EMC2 just as is. Somebody definitely COULD make a business doing EMC2-based retrofits. They would settle on interface cards, motors and drives, and have a range of these to suit the size of the machine. Probably also have something like Bob Campbell's standard boxes with the right hole pattern for connectors and internal components, so he could just pick the required parts, bolt into box, wire up and then attach to the machine. Or, as in previous paragraph, selling a turnkey retrofit kit for anybody reasonably experienced in industrial control gear to install on site. Jon -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Dave wrote: (Somebody else wrote:) that demand is now in Asia. If I was still young I would move to where the capital is. There are plenty of aging CNC machines that are good retrofit candidates still in the US. And, it would be QUITE ridiculous to send a machine to Asia to retrofit and then ship back! So, while a heck of a lot of manufacturing has moved to the east, this is one business model that really can't be moved out of the country. (Of course, the manufacturing of the retrofit components could be moved offshore, the actual install of the retrofit would still be done here.) Jon -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Igor Chudov wrote: Another newsgroup that I participated in, Alt.machines.cnc is certifiably dead for the sole reason of political spamming. rec.crafts.metalworking, is on the verge of dying because of so much political stuff posted there. . The above newsgroups are un-moderated. THIS group IS moderated, however, and I assume the moderators will take action WELL before it becomes detrimental. You've probably noticed the (welcome) lack of spam and political rants here. alt.machines.cnc has been a wildly political, rant-filled and ad hominem group for a decade, with a couple specific generators of huge amounts of venom. Still, it is the hangout of the serious, production machinists, and it sometimes contains some really interesting discussions of high-end machines, controls and tooling. R.C.M has indeed gone downhill, sadly, but is still quite useful for those really ODD questions that come up so often related to cars, home repairs, small shop machining and tooling, and various things I can afford to tinker with. I can't afford Sandvik-Coromant $100 diamond inserts in my shop! And, thank God I don't make stuff out of Inconel. Jon -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Sun, 2010-12-12 at 11:54 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: ... snip Probably also have something like Bob Campbell's standard boxes with the right hole pattern for connectors and internal components, so he could just pick the required parts, bolt into box, wire up and then attach to the machine. Or, as in previous paragraph, selling a turnkey retrofit kit for anybody reasonably experienced in industrial control gear to install on site. Jon From parts, sub-assemblies, to complete turn-key, when do the regulatory controls kick in? Being a tree hugger, I'm all for making sure a product is fit and safe for the environment, neighbors, customers, etcetera, but it sure is easier to do this in-house. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Hello All, I would like to ask a question related to the commecialisation of EMC. I work as a Service Engineer fixing CNC machinery. One of our customers has a machine with an Acramatic A2100 control, this control has some serious problem with it. So, the question is, if I was to retrofit this machine, how would the board and all of the contributors feel about my using EMC as a control? I have some reservations about this as I don't feel it's right to profit from people's efforts which they have contributed for free. Comments anyone? David Winter. P.S. Keep up the amazing work with EMC2 -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
THIS group IS moderated, Yay! Thank you moderators! -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Ries van Twisk Certified TYPO3 Integrator / TYPO3 Developer TYPO3 Glassfish JasperReports JasperETL Flex Blaze-DS WebORB PostgreSQL DB-Architect email: r...@vantwisk.nlweb: http://www.rvantwisk.nl/ skype: callto://r.vantwisk Phone: +1 (803) 426-3350 On Dec 12, 2010, at 2:16 PM, David Winter wrote: Hello All, I would like to ask a question related to the commecialisation of EMC. I work as a Service Engineer fixing CNC machinery. One of our customers has a machine with an Acramatic A2100 control, this control has some serious problem with it. So, the question is, if I was to retrofit this machine, how would the board and all of the contributors feel about my using EMC as a control? I have some reservations about this as I don't feel it's right to profit from people's efforts which they have contributed for free. Comments anyone? David Winter. P.S. Keep up the amazing work with EMC2 David, actually, you should use EMC2 and you should not see at as ' profit from people's effort' the more EMC2 is used, the more knowledge is gained and the more EMC2 will be spread, better interfaces build etc... You can in return help us by making a wiki page describing your experiences, how you did it etc. etc and if you made any custom panels, or you needed to change axis (or other interface) you can contribute this code back to the project. This way you help the project as much as you gained from it. I am not sure if this projects has a sponsor/support page though, if that exists you can contribute some of your profit back to. Ries -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
I heard the other day that GE is bringing back all of their appliance manufacturing to the US from abroad. GE, we learned just last week, is now basically owned by our government - I would suppose that is why they are making such an illogical move. ( Further, I expect the political class to continue to make movements towards protectionism as our economy continues to unfold - which will trigger trade wars, where we lose even more manufacturing. ) Yes, China quality is not consistent - just as Japanese quality wasn't in the early '60s. Korean quality is fine, as is Taiwan and other places. If there are places where people can work hard and keep the wealth they create, they will find a way to make quality products. My main point, as someone that sells control equipment, is Don't create a product in search of a market. (that also happens to be one reason why socialism always fails in the long run ). To use EMC to create wealth, one bumps into the economic mess we are in. To succeed, you have to accept the current business reality, and it doesn’t' go away just because you quit looking at it. A lot of the people are feeling the pinch. Transferring wealth by spending huge amounts of stimulus money won't fix the problem - it only buys votes and creates a new bubble, that when it bursts, will make the last crash look like a walk in the park. Transferring the debt of companies too big to fail to the government, only means we will learn that the US is not to big to fail. ( This is not a political thing - the bailing out happened with the support of both parties ). Control equipment sales in the USA are dead - no sane person would risk their OWN money putting in a factory with the anti small business policies in place. In the mean time, the capital really has moved to Asia - this is not a political point of view. ( I blame both parties for letting it happen). The guys with the cash get to call the shots. More than half of my sales are now overseas. This is the new business reality - ignore it at your own risk. In 1900 the UK was the greatest center of capital in the world. People that moved to the US with the capital did well. The UK ended up bankrupt - bailed out by the IMF in the '70s. Sadly, I don't think the political progression is stoppable. The center of capital has once again shifted and if I was young and wanted to do machine manufacturing, I would be looking for a way to someplace in Asia (I would go for someplace outside of China). Karl Schmidt EMail k...@xtronics.com Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com 3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089 Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434 If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. -- Mark Twain -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Dave, On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 1:16 PM, David Winter davidwin...@hondaracing.freeserve.co.uk wrote: Hello All, I would like to ask a question related to the commecialisation of EMC. I work as a Service Engineer fixing CNC machinery. One of our customers has a machine with an Acramatic A2100 control, this control has some serious problem with it. So, the question is, if I was to retrofit this machine, how would the board and all of the contributors feel about my using EMC as a control? I have some reservations about this as I don't feel it's right to profit from people's efforts which they have contributed for free. Comments anyone? I certainly profit from the use of EMC2. I have heard 0, ziltch, nada comments in a negative fashion. I have received VERY MUCH help. I am looking into retrofits in a commercial manner. I cannot speak for anyone else. I will positively encourage/help you. Stuart David Winter. P.S. Keep up the amazing work with EMC2 -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- dos centavos -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On 12 December 2010 17:18, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: Seriously? If that is the case then most of the nation is immoral. If you accept a tax credit, then you are accepting money from the gov. The immoral part of taking money from the government The Nation? The Government? Can you chaps be a bit less parochical in your worldview do you think, and stop assuming that all EMC2 users/devs are in the US? -- atp Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Gentlemen, On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 2:12 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 December 2010 17:18, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: Seriously? If that is the case then most of the nation is immoral. If you accept a tax credit, then you are accepting money from the gov. The immoral part of taking money from the government The Nation? The Government? Can you chaps be a bit less parochical in your worldview do you think, and stop assuming that all EMC2 users/devs are in the US? You are correct. The whole world system is corrupt and failing. This conflagration will involve everybody. There will be a major realignment of the whole system. I think EMC/EMC2 transcends any political regime. I think EMC2 will be a foundation to build upon when the whole world restarts the cottage industry manufacturing we will see in the near future. Global companies/trade will die. For the rest of my life and probably anyone on this list (from anywhere) we will witness the death of our current society and the rebirth of local/quality manufacturing. In respect for Igor's position and I also concur with Igor - this is my last participation on this thread/topic. It has been fun and for me it is now time for some different fun. thanks guys Stuart -- dos centavos -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Jon, My father is an old machine shop teacher and he lives just west of Detroit. There is one auction house that he frequents and he periodically buys some smaller equipment from them. He told me recently that the number of auctions in Detroit has slowed since most of the defunct machine shops have been closed for some time now. He also told me that many of the machines sold at the auctions now are packaged into containers and shipped to China. Apparently they are being shipped to China and used there. Why ship them back? They are making things there and shipping the things to us! Dave On 12/12/2010 12:59 PM, Jon Elson wrote: Dave wrote: (Somebody else wrote:) that demand is now in Asia. If I was still young I would move to where the capital is. There are plenty of aging CNC machines that are good retrofit candidates still in the US. And, it would be QUITE ridiculous to send a machine to Asia to retrofit and then ship back! So, while a heck of a lot of manufacturing has moved to the east, this is one business model that really can't be moved out of the country. (Of course, the manufacturing of the retrofit components could be moved offshore, the actual install of the retrofit would still be done here.) Jon -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
It is not only for United States of America. Many years ago I decided to leave Argentina because the corruption of government, and moved to Spain. I could no be more wrong, Here in Spain corruption is everywhere, and politician fight to defend is own privileges. I receive many visitors from over the word, and In everywhere is more less the same. The vast amount of population are blind and I think they deserve this, so in this gloomy picture I found small groups like EMC that make me think less skeptical about humans. I hope to make some contribution to EMC in the future, yo know the Karma! Thanks to everybody Arnold On 12/12/2010 06:18 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: I am sickened by the developments of our government but I also acknowledge we (this includes everyone in these United States of America) have the government we deserve/want. It will not change until our 'wanter' changes. Our collective 'wanter' is about to change and it will be dramatic. The type of people in the EMC2 group will welcome the change. MUCH of the rest will hate it. There will not be a 'government' program to provide the basics when times are tough. Get ready for a rough ride through the next few years. whew!! thanks for listening Stuart -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Well put! This thread is not off topic at all (IMHO). Thanks to all for proving that I am not alone in waste land of sheeple. Bruce Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Arnoldritercnc arnoldriter...@gmail.com Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 23:20:37 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Reply-To: arnoldriter...@gmail.com, Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC It is not only for United States of America. Many years ago I decided to leave Argentina because the corruption of government, and moved to Spain. I could no be more wrong, Here in Spain corruption is everywhere, and politician fight to defend is own privileges. I receive many visitors from over the word, and In everywhere is more less the same. The vast amount of population are blind and I think they deserve this, so in this gloomy picture I found small groups like EMC that make me think less skeptical about humans. I hope to make some contribution to EMC in the future, yo know the Karma! Thanks to everybody Arnold On 12/12/2010 06:18 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: I am sickened by the developments of our government but I also acknowledge we (this includes everyone in these United States of America) have the government we deserve/want. It will not change until our 'wanter' changes. Our collective 'wanter' is about to change and it will be dramatic. The type of people in the EMC2 group will welcome the change. MUCH of the rest will hate it. There will not be a 'government' program to provide the basics when times are tough. Get ready for a rough ride through the next few years. whew!! thanks for listening Stuart -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Kirk Wallace wrote: From parts, sub-assemblies, to complete turn-key, when do the regulatory controls kick in? Being a tree hugger, I'm all for making sure a product is fit and safe for the environment, neighbors, customers, etcetera, but it sure is easier to do this in-house. There is some grey area, as machine tools are nominally for factory use, which is in a different EMI class from home or office. Parts, boards, sub-assemblies are not required to be tested in the US, unless they fit in standard enclosures like desktop PCs. Otherwise, the rule is any complete unit that is powered from the mains and uses digital circuitry with a clock rate over 9 KHz must be tested. There are some exceptions for ultra-low power devices like digital wrist watches and similar devices which by design probably have real low radiation potential. Testing of boards and similar subassemblies intended to go into another housing is pointless, as the housing will make a HUGE difference. But, they do require testing of any board that plugs into a PC and has an external connector, as that connector can release interfering signals. So, the way I interpret the rules, all the boards I make are exempt from testing. But, if I made anything that had a complete housing, so a user would just plug in motors and connect to a computer, that WOULD require testing. I did this for a standard product I made 20 years ago that hooked an editing VCR to a PC, and it cost me $3K, I think. The rules have gotten more complex, so I understand such a test would be $10K now, for the industrial-level of test. If you want to do the home-level of test, it is more complicated and more expensive. In Europe, you can do these tests in-house, in the US it is forbidden. You can do your own pre qualification tests to try to be sure your product will pass first time, but you are required to have a testing lab that is registered with the FCC (or international test house that can perform the tests to the current FCC rules) do the test and write the test documents. Jon -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
David Winter wrote: Hello All, I would like to ask a question related to the commecialisation of EMC. I work as a Service Engineer fixing CNC machinery. One of our customers has a machine with an Acramatic A2100 control, this control has some serious problem with it. So, the question is, if I was to retrofit this machine, how would the board and all of the contributors feel about my using EMC as a control? I have some reservations about this as I don't feel it's right to profit from people's efforts which they have contributed for free. Comments anyone? What do you THINK EMC2 was created for? For 6 guys to run a machine in their garage? I am as sure as any of the non-core developers can be that they WANT EMC2 to be used, and retrofit/updates are great candidates for it. Jon -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
If I remember right, EMC was initially developed by the US Department of Commerce's National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST.gov) to help spur automation in commerce and industry (or some such). So yes, it was made for 6 guys to run a machine in their garage, AND for anyone (companies included) to enhance and expand products to grow the economy. Since it was initially developed, it has had lots of continuing development, and been put under current licensing. Initially is was own by the US Gov, and was distributed free for use (as being in the public domain, ... different than the current license). -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
You might be able to pull it off yourself or get a loan from your local bank. Is anyone seeing the banks loosening up with small biz loans? I'm not. Dave On 12/10/2010 10:59 PM, Dean Hedin wrote: You guys are reading this all wrong. Make no mistake, Anonymous investor is looking to make some money. That should come as no surprise. Heck, I think a lot of us have been trying to come up with a business plan that involves EMC in one way or another. Some of us have made some money using EMC, right? What I'm trying to say is: If you have a fantastic idea involving EMC, don't just toss it to Anonymous investor. You might be able to pull it off yourself or get a loan from your local bank. Heck, if it's a good enough idea I might invest in it. Anonymous Investor, you give us the business plan and tell us how much capital is available and we'll volunteer. OK, How's that? Yea, and hurry up would ya? we only floating this offer for a few months... -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
No, but there is a program from the government where you can get a very low interest loan and not start paying back for five years. This is what I have been told by a friend, The company I work for is trying to get in on it -Original Message- From: Dave [mailto:e...@dc9.tzo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 6:18 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC You might be able to pull it off yourself or get a loan from your local bank. Is anyone seeing the banks loosening up with small biz loans? I'm not. Dave On 12/10/2010 10:59 PM, Dean Hedin wrote: You guys are reading this all wrong. Make no mistake, Anonymous investor is looking to make some money. That should come as no surprise. Heck, I think a lot of us have been trying to come up with a business plan that involves EMC in one way or another. Some of us have made some money using EMC, right? What I'm trying to say is: If you have a fantastic idea involving EMC, don't just toss it to Anonymous investor. You might be able to pull it off yourself or get a loan from your local bank. Heck, if it's a good enough idea I might invest in it. Anonymous Investor, you give us the business plan and tell us how much capital is available and we'll volunteer. OK, How's that? Yea, and hurry up would ya? we only floating this offer for a few months... -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Is anyone seeing the banks loosening up with small biz loans? I'm not. Dave From what I have heard, there is plenty of money to loan, but the banks are 'risk adverse' after being stung, and not wanting to be nationalized. So the old saw is still true, the only ones that can get loans are the ones that don't need it. I have also heard via news reports that many small business folks are not getting loans because they don't want to over-extend themselves. And spending cash is limited to secure high return investments/purchases. Those are all generalities, but macro economics is always generalities. :) -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On 12/11/2010 07:00 AM, Gary Corlew wrote: No, but there is a program from the government where you can get a very low interest loan and not start paying back for five years. This is what I have been told by a friend, The company I work for is trying to get in on it Why not figure a way to bootstrap your business - I started out with $20 of capital in 1979. If you think you need 'other peoples money' to get it off the ground, your chance of success is quite low. Anyway taking money from the government is immoral... you are taking the money of people that work at McDonald’s by force. If you can solve peoples problems, the money is always there. If, on the other hand, you have an idea, spend great sums trying to sell it - you won't go far. Listen closely- your customers will tell you about their problems. There is a demand for people that can get machines to produce wealth - unfortunately, by restricting the free trade of labor, that demand is now in Asia. If I was still young I would move to where the capital is. Karl Schmidt EMail k...@xtronics.com Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com 3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089 Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434 Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there - Will Rogers -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
NDI and security of investor credibility are obvious ground work. Just a bystander here but quite obviously this is an idea who's time has come. ROI vs machine market place is the question I've asked myself often. Ultimately the question is how to apply the technonogy via marketing and resources over development of code. Bruce Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Edward Bernard yankeelena2...@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:50:54 To: Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. - Original Message From: Anonymous Investor backgroundpart...@gmail.com To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 9:10:13 AM Subject: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC *Business Opportunity related to EMC2* EMC2 may be well written CNC control software, but it does not appear to be making progress entering mainstream applications. We believe that the largest impediment to success is the lack of a full scope supplier. We feel that the mainstream machine builder community, meaning hobby, professional, and OEM, remains outside the open source community. Furthermore, we feel that the solution is not to try and bring machine builders into the open source community, but rather to bring complete solutions to machine builders. We propose the creation of a company which delivers EMC based solutions, essentially the Red Hat of CNC. To that end, we will finance such a company. *Perspective:* There are quite a few hobby oriented suppliers, based on Mach3, TurboCAD, and other solutions, which offer everything including ballscrews, motors, drivers, and circuit boards. These companies serve their customers well, but they do not come up to the level of professionalism that is necessary to attract serious commercial machine builders. There are mid-level suppliers, such as Flashcut, CamSoft, or Centroid, which offer reasonable value but cannot provide the security, vendor independence, or continuity of supply, which would be available with a more open technology. Of course the 800 lb gorilla is Fanuc, having sold 2.2 million control systems. While offering the ultimate in performance, Fanuc solutions come with minimum vendor independence and dismal ROI for those only needed mid-level performance. We believe a full service, professional grade supplier, offering complete control systems solutions, can be an effective competitor and is sorely needed by all levels of machine builders. We are not proposing open source hardware, but rather combining open source software with support and conventional industrial components to develop full spectrum solutions. This is not a matter of welcoming machine builders into the open source community; rather it is an issue of bringing the resources and value of open source to the market, offering attractive ROI to both customers and investor. *Details and How to Proceed:* We are looking to invest in a start-up business which meets the general goals as outlined above. We will provide the majority of capital and mentoring as needed. We will not participate in, nor attempt to control, the day to day activities of the business. If you want this to be your start-up business, submit a business plan to the email of Anonymous Investor at the address [backgroundpartner at gmail.com]. All submissions will remain confidential. There are many resources available for guidance on the development of a business plan, Google it. There is no specific timeline for this venture, but we will keep it open for at least 2 months. This is not a contest; it’s an investment and a partnership. A credible plan may be reviewed with suggestions for improvement. We have limited time for dialog and are unlikely to answer email from those with idle curiosity. *Anti-Spam and Scam Issues:* The legitimacy of this opportunity should speak for itself. This offer is only going out to the EMC email list and at no time will we ask for money, deposits, or personal financial information. Our anonymity will be removed for those whose negotiations appear credible and who sign non-disclosure agreement. Yours, Anonymous Investor -- What happens now with your Lotus Notes apps - do you make another costly upgrade, or settle for being marooned without product support? Time to move off Lotus Notes and onto the cloud with Force.com, apps are easier to build, use, and manage than apps on traditional platforms. Sign up for the Lotus Notes Migration Kit to learn more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/salesforce-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 9:25 PM, ducemail...@yahoo.com wrote: NDI and security of investor credibility are obvious ground work. Just a bystander here but quite obviously this is an idea who's time has come. ROI vs machine market place is the question I've asked myself often. Ultimately the question is how to apply the technonogy via marketing and resources over development of code. Bruce Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry This thread has got me thinking. I am starting to believe that selling an appliance, that happens to run EMC2 might be the best way. Linksys did it with the imfamous WRT routers that run Linux, so using EMC2 in a similar way by putting it in a 'controller box' that could be a full computer or just a 'headless controller' that takes in SD cards with g-code on it. Or go the other way and make it fully network attached with all the touch screens, web cams, and other gizmoz anyone wants to attach. Then it is a 'product' and you aren't selling EMC2, or just the service of providing configured EMC2. ... I wonder if this would 'sell better' than a software only product? Proper NC controllers can cost quite a bit. Add in the retail cost of an industrial computer, shop read NEMA enclosure, Gecko drivers, etc, and it is easy to run a couple of grand without sweating and before you have a machine to attach it to. -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:00:33 -0600, you wrote: On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 10:42:44PM +, Steve Blackmore wrote: On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 07:42:34 -0800 (PST), you wrote: 3. The user interface needs a lot of critical thinking still, to bring it up to scratch. Have a good look at the latest FANUCs for instance. but the UI is miles ahead of mach3. Not for touch screen lathe users ! Touchy has had lathe support for a while now, but I'm not using it yet. Have you tried it? Hi Chris No, couple of things with it. No backplot and DRO's too small to read at distance. Having said that just DRO readings are pretty meaningless to see where a job is physically up to, can't beat a good backplot :) It also has it's quirks - two for starters that really annoy, first is nasty IMO - Axis, click on spindle start, spindle races off at some arbitrary speed. Need to press + twice before you can control speed. I can't reproduce this - can you give more details? Can you reproduce it in sim? Don't know how I could run my machine in Sim. What happens is press spindle start, that enables spindle and seems to enable PWM output to VFD at 50% duty rate. Press + and PWM then drops to 0%, then you need to press + again to control speed. It does it even if you have previously set a speed on the MDI screen, and ignores a speed set in RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE It should start at 0% PWM or S0 if you have not set a speed, or at a speed set in startup code. Steve Blackmore -- -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On 12/09/2010 02:22 PM, Igor Chudov wrote: I am extremely and openly critical of many open source products, but I have to say that EMC2 is on top as far as documentation, ease of configuration, etc is concerned. To add to this excellent support, and you would know why I am very happy. EMC2 is also very stable. The documentation is clear, abundant, and actually correct. The tasks that users try to accomplish with EMC2, such as retrofitting old machines or making new machines, are daunting and many of us are first timers, myself included. This is why using EMC2 is so difficult, not because EMC2 is hard to use. I had to learn everything about CNC as part of my project. i I for one, am extremely happy that EMC2 is out there, and all the folks that have participated in making this software a reality deserve a huge pat on the back. Guys like Stuart and Kirk, pushing the limits out in the big iron world, guys that have come up with working solutions to pendants and MPG's, guys like Steve P, Chris, and so many others that seem to live on IRC and are always willing to jump in and help somebody, guys like John Thornton who took the bull by the horns and help out with the documentation, and so many others. Without folks like you, my little hare-brained scheme to make a CNC machine that would cut bamboo strips into tapered triangles to make fly fishing rods would probably never have come to fruition. You all have my utmost thanks. Mark -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
To All Responders; I think all of your responses are right on and the majority seem to be saying don't fix something thats not broke. If you want to see an example of the core group going commercial, take a look at Red Hat and their resulting open source Linux effort Fedora. Those who wish to go commercial are already doing so with no disruption to the EMC2 effort (only enhances it). I suggest anyone who wants to go commercial with EMC and sell to large companies or manufactures, get a large capital reserve so your customer can see how to recover if your system doesn't work. Then advertise what you can do for their new system, or their broken controllers. Remember you can't sell EMC, but you can sell your services, your documentation and your electrical/electronic and mechanical products. People don't own companies; companies own people; and the Government owns them both. Just look at the companies payroll Tax records. I'm not sure if this is 1 or 2 cents. Don On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: Igor Chudov wrote: On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: So, that is why I supply boards, but not turnkey systems. Some of my products are used by sizable aerospace shops in daily production. And your products are pretty good. Not the bottom of the barrel cheapest, but very straightforward to use and time saving. Yes, for any integrator, the first one takes some learning. But, if an integrator wanted to standardize on my products, the second machine would go like clockwork! (I retrofitted a Series-II Boss 5 machine at Roland Freistad's shop in one day, including installing servo motors on it. It was not a finished retrofit, just nothing to 3 axis movement in one day.) That, of course, is true with any of the EMC2 interface products, or probably with Mach3 as well. Somebody really could go into business making kits for some specific (Iron) platform like Bridgeport BOSS retrofits. But, I never seem to get two requests for the same type of machine. Jon -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Don Stanley dstanley1...@gmail.comwrote: To All Responders; snip... Remember you can't sell EMC, but you can sell your services, your documentation and your electrical/electronic and mechanical products. Why can't you sell EMC? Neil -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
It is a tough sell to get money for something one can get freely from another source. Unless you are in the habit to prey on the innocent. Can I interest you in a bottle of air? Introductory price just for you. All in good fun Cal -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Don Stanley dstanley1...@gmail.comwrote: I'd say its 3 cents with interest. If you want to see an example of the core group going commercial, take a look at Red Hat and their resulting open source Linux effort Fedora. from my hart. Those who wish to go commercial are already doing so with no disruption to the EMC2 effort (only enhances it). I suggest anyone who wants to go commercial with EMC and sell to large companies or manufactures, get a large capital reserve so your customer can see how to recover if your system doesn't work. Then advertise what you can do for their new system, or their broken controllers. And this will improve EMC tremendously, since we now have to actually listen to real live customers The results of that discussion wiil ultimately feed back into EMC. Everybody will happily make money, a core group of happy customers will come in existence, software will get better, donations will be made, etc. People don't own companies; companies own people; and the Government owns them both. Just look at the companies payroll Tax records. And I would say the honourable investor that started off this thread was uh... perhaps looking to own some people. Commercial pressure from customers has improved a product time and again, financial pressure from the investors rarely. Regards, Jan de Kruyf. -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Neil Baylis neil.bay...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Don Stanley dstanley1...@gmail.com wrote: To All Responders; snip... Remember you can't sell EMC, but you can sell your services, your documentation and your electrical/electronic and mechanical products. Why can't you sell EMC? Neil -- I worked for a while for a small company that sold VOIP phone systems. One major problem was that customers thought it should all be free, since the software was free. But the hardware acquisition, installation of wires, desksets, etc, setup of server hardware, installation and setup time for the software, and education time, let alone continuing support, are not free. We didn't charge for the open source software we installed (Ubuntu and Asterisk plus associated utilities), but we did charge for customization, and knowing how. This is the same issue I see with EMC 'sales'. Look at what Artsoft charges for MACH3, a near 'competitor'. Personally, if someone sets up an EMC based system, I think it should be of as much or more value than a Mach3 installation. But customers don't want to pay for it. Just my experience. Also there is the little legal thing. Read the license EMC2 is distributed under. You don't 'own' EMC2, so you can't sell it. But add a valued service or hardware around it, and you probably have a way to 'sell EMC', just remember you are not selling EMC, just your value added portion. But charge what you will. ... Jack -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Neil Baylis wrote: snip... Remember you can't sell EMC, but you can sell your services, your documentation and your electrical/electronic and mechanical products. Why can't you sell EMC? Well, I was going to respond with something like because the GPL V2 says you can't. Turns out I was wrong :) You are allowed to sell Free software in binary form. However, you must make the source code available at no cost, or at a price which covers reasonable distribution costs. Here's a FAQ on selling free software: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html Now, after selling someone your Gee-Whiz-Bang-super-custom EMC binary, you may not prevent them from distributing it to all their friends, putting it on their website for anyone to freely download, etc. They can do the same thing with the free (or almost free) source code you're required to offer them. You don't have to support anyone who didn't pay you, but you can't prevent them from copying, using, or distributing it. My $0.02, and IANAL. - Steve -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On 12/10/2010 02:47 PM, Stephen Wille Padnos wrote: Neil Baylis wrote: snip... Remember you can't sell EMC, but you can sell your services, your documentation and your electrical/electronic and mechanical products. Why can't you sell EMC? Well, I was going to respond with something like because the GPL V2 says you can't. Turns out I was wrong :) Yes, but all of this violates good business sense. Don't offer a product in search of a market - just solve customers' problems and you will have all the work you want. ( of course people today are not interested in finding work - instead looking for the government to confiscate other peoples wealth and hand it to them - some call this stealing. ) Karl Schmidt EMail k...@xtronics.com Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com 3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089 Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434 They can print money; they cannot print wealth. Printing money only destroys the ability of wealth producers to produce more wealth. Wealth is generated by people pursuing exchanges in their self interest - in a free market, no exchange takes place unless both parties think they benefit. This is called greed by some. kps -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Wille Padnos spad...@sover.netwrote: Neil Baylis wrote: snip... Remember you can't sell EMC, but you can sell your services, your documentation and your electrical/electronic and mechanical products. Why can't you sell EMC? Well, I was going to respond with something like because the GPL V2 says you can't. Turns out I was wrong :) You are allowed to sell Free software in binary form. However, you must make the source code available at no cost, or at a price which covers reasonable distribution costs. Here's a FAQ on selling free software: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html Now, after selling someone your Gee-Whiz-Bang-super-custom EMC binary, you may not prevent them from distributing it to all their friends, putting it on their website for anyone to freely download, etc. They can do the same thing with the free (or almost free) source code you're required to offer them. You don't have to support anyone who didn't pay you, but you can't prevent them from copying, using, or distributing it. My $0.02, and IANAL. - Steve When you use a M$ product, you don't own the software. You own the rights to use it under the license agreement. Same is true for EMC under the agreements. And if you want to sell it, as described before, you have responsibilities to make the source code available. ... Now it can be argued that you don't 'owe the customer' your enhancements, unless you published them under GPL (of some flavor) also. In that case your enhancements would be proprietary, but you would still have to make the GPLed portion of the code base available to the customers. -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Just a couple of minor clarifications below Stephen Wille Padnos wrote: Jack Coats wrote: When you use a M$ product, you don't own the software. You own the rights to use it under the license agreement. Same is true for EMC under the agreements. And if you want to sell it, as described before, you have responsibilities to make the source code available. ... Now it can be argued that you don't 'owe the customer' your enhancements, unless you published them under GPL (of some flavor) also. In that case your enhancements would be proprietary, but you would still have to make the GPLed portion of the code base available to the customers. Well, that's true but possibly misleading. The key part there is the GPLed portion of the code base. That's where a lot of people (including myself) get hung up. The GPL has in it a definition of what constitutes a derivative work. There are also legal precedents that might have bearing in a court case. In a nutshell, if you use any GPL headers for your code, you link your code with GPL code to form a single binary (whether done at compile time or at run time), or you make a system that can't function without your code (ie, even if you figure out a way to avoid the whole linking thing, but the system still can't do anything without your code), then your code must also be licensed under the GPL. In the case of EMC, that means that if I wish to make a user interface based on e.g. Touchy, I must license the resulting program under the GPL, since Touchy is under the GPL and I have created a derivative of it. This of course assumes that you want to distribute the code. If you don't distribute it, then you don't have to license it. You can still use it as much as you want. It's only when you copy/distribute it (hence the term copyright) that you have to license under GPL. If I wish to write my own user interface from scratch (without looking at all the existing ones ...), Here I meant looking at the source code to the existing ones. You can run them and see what they look like all you want. then I probably have to release it under the GPL, since I would likely have to include the src/emc/nml_intf/emc.hh header file (among others), which is licensed under the GPL (not the LGPL). That may not itself be enough to require GPL licensing for the resulting work, but since my program has to be linked with the NML library, which is under the GPL, my program has to be GPL anyway. See, it gets confusing :) It's best to read both the GPL itself http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html and the GPL FAQ http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html thoroughly, probably multiple times. That's the only way to reduce the confusion. - Steve -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Don Stanley dstanley1...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to see an example of the core group going commercial, take a look at Red Hat and their resulting open source Linux effort Fedora. Those who wish to go commercial are already doing so with no disruption to the EMC2 effort (only enhances it). Since I have an opinion on what makes Fedora successful, I thought I'd comment on the similarities between EMC and Fedora/Redhat. Simple economics says that in the long term, the sellers must control the value of the goods they are offering. Since EMC itself is not controllable this way, the value must lie elsewhere: the EMC vendors must offer their customers excellent service, or integrating expertise, or other skills. The EMC software is the foundation and the tooling, and it's the services that is the real product. Similarly, the professional trades such architects and builders aren't selling CAD software and building materials; they just use them to construct a house for their customer. Redhat's modus operandi is similar: they essentially offer a maintenance contract (support, updates, assurance, etc.). The Fedora project is their RD division: they put a lot of engineering and other resources in it, with the expectation that the results will directly go into into their commercial product. In that sense, everyone who uses Fedora is doing Redhat's QA---it's a tradeoff of some possibility of breakage, justified by all the goodies that come down to Fedora much earlier than to the safe but stolid Enterprise version. The novel principle that Redhat understands is that OS software is now a service rather than a manufacturing industry. They can't differentiate on the software: they could maybe get more customers if they put some proprietary enhancements and divergences in their commercial OS---but overall they are better off by developing all the new features in the open/free version. Any hypothetical business offering EMC-driven machining hardware would need to follow that model, but it's a hard psychological argument to make to a person coming from the old, 'software as a manufacturing industry' worldview. The caveat is that Redhat is really putting a lot of resources into Fedora, by contributing engineering and administrative/managerial resources, not to mention infrastructure. Even the governance of Fedora is pretty amazing: they actually have MEETINGS which result in concensus ACTION ITEMS that someone FOLLOWS UP on :). Their software workflow is pretty impressive too and quite automated: Bugzilla bug and issue tracking and Abrt automatic bug reporting, Koji build and packaging system, and the AutoQA testing rig they are working on. The bottom line is that it would take humility and strength for a company to have a successful relationship with EMC. After all, they would need EMC as much or more than EMC would need them, so they would have to build trust and prove their usefulness. Difficult, but doable. -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
The long and short of it is that the GPL license only becomes an issue if you want to take EMC2 and make it entirely yours for commercial purposes. In reality, the license does not inhibit the general commercial implementation of EMC2. The proof is in the fact that companies like Smithy and Tormach have implemented EMC2 on their machines and from what I can tell they have been at least moderately successful and no one has challenged them on their use of EMC2 with their products. Smithy even uses a non standard GUI on the front end of EMC2 (and they do treat the screen set as theirs). I'm not sure that these companies are strictly following the GPL to the letter, but regardless, they continue to do business. Dave On 12/10/2010 6:04 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Don Stanleydstanley1...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to see an example of the core group going commercial, take a look at Red Hat and their resulting open source Linux effort Fedora. Those who wish to go commercial are already doing so with no disruption to the EMC2 effort (only enhances it). Since I have an opinion on what makes Fedora successful, I thought I'd comment on the similarities between EMC and Fedora/Redhat. Simple economics says that in the long term, the sellers must control the value of the goods they are offering. Since EMC itself is not controllable this way, the value must lie elsewhere: the EMC vendors must offer their customers excellent service, or integrating expertise, or other skills. The EMC software is the foundation and the tooling, and it's the services that is the real product. Similarly, the professional trades such architects and builders aren't selling CAD software and building materials; they just use them to construct a house for their customer. Redhat's modus operandi is similar: they essentially offer a maintenance contract (support, updates, assurance, etc.). The Fedora project is their RD division: they put a lot of engineering and other resources in it, with the expectation that the results will directly go into into their commercial product. In that sense, everyone who uses Fedora is doing Redhat's QA---it's a tradeoff of some possibility of breakage, justified by all the goodies that come down to Fedora much earlier than to the safe but stolid Enterprise version. The novel principle that Redhat understands is that OS software is now a service rather than a manufacturing industry. They can't differentiate on the software: they could maybe get more customers if they put some proprietary enhancements and divergences in their commercial OS---but overall they are better off by developing all the new features in the open/free version. Any hypothetical business offering EMC-driven machining hardware would need to follow that model, but it's a hard psychological argument to make to a person coming from the old, 'software as a manufacturing industry' worldview. The caveat is that Redhat is really putting a lot of resources into Fedora, by contributing engineering and administrative/managerial resources, not to mention infrastructure. Even the governance of Fedora is pretty amazing: they actually have MEETINGS which result in concensus ACTION ITEMS that someone FOLLOWS UP on :). Their software workflow is pretty impressive too and quite automated: Bugzilla bug and issue tracking and Abrt automatic bug reporting, Koji build and packaging system, and the AutoQA testing rig they are working on. The bottom line is that it would take humility and strength for a company to have a successful relationship with EMC. After all, they would need EMC as much or more than EMC would need them, so they would have to build trust and prove their usefulness. Difficult, but doable. -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
You guys are reading this all wrong. Make no mistake, Anonymous investor is looking to make some money. That should come as no surprise. Heck, I think a lot of us have been trying to come up with a business plan that involves EMC in one way or another. Some of us have made some money using EMC, right? What I'm trying to say is: If you have a fantastic idea involving EMC, don't just toss it to Anonymous investor. You might be able to pull it off yourself or get a loan from your local bank. Heck, if it's a good enough idea I might invest in it. Anonymous Investor, you give us the business plan and tell us how much capital is available and we'll volunteer. OK, How's that? Yea, and hurry up would ya? we only floating this offer for a few months... -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 09:50:54PM -0800, Edward Bernard wrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. $.02 I was waiting to see what more active EMC2-ers think, but here's a comment, FWIW. It seems to be a vote of confidence in EMC2 being a robust product with a commercial level of performance. When investors are willing to put their money (or at least money they have to account for) into members of our community going commercial in deploying EMC2, then they have presumably taken some qualified advice on the merits of the product, and the current level of development. If, in addition to our existing hardware suppliers, there were medium-scale commercial integrators or retrofitters, then yes, I can't help feeling that might bias development toward more commercial features, or even imitation of commercial products. If the worst came to the worst, and minor incompatibilities arose, then it's not hard to have a build option or two. But the interchangeable GUIs, and loadable modules, not to mention HAL, make EMC2 admirably suited to pleasing many and varied users, without interference. But it is our active developers who make or break the viability of EMC2. A successful venture might be able to contribute to that, to the benefit of all? /$.02 Erik -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
If the EMC2 GPL is honored, then EMC2 remains what it always has been - freely available open source software. If I make a CNC console and retrofit a machine with my console and EMC2, then I can charge for the console and the retrofit service but not for the software. Also, the end user must have access to the EMC2 source code. In most cases this is a non issue because businesses that employ machinging as part of their process are usually don't care about the details that make the machine work. What they really care about is does the machine work, is it reasonably easy to use, is it dependable and is there support to provide troubleshooting and repair reasonably quickly and economically. If a business entity owned something they created (a CNC console, a stand alone GUI (created from scratch - not a modification of one of the interfaces covered by the GPL), the service of integrating controls to machines, etc.) and they were able to generate a profit selling what they owned while giving away what they did not own (GPL licensed software) then that business would probably budget some of it's resources for EMC2 improvements and fixes. Any improvements and fixes to the GPL licensed software should be posted to the EMC2 website for anyone interested in the project to share. EMC2 would potentially realize greater development in a shorter amount of time because programming improvements and fixes were, in some cases, being driven by the needs of paying customers. Wouldn't this be a win for the development of EMC2? Anonymous Investor has articulated the same thoughts that I have put forth for discussion in the past. I have been working towards these goals and have realized some progress. There are two software programmers with real world CNC experience that are involved with EMC2 because I introduced them to the software and spent time explaining the software's capabilities and potential. I provided the airfare for one of those programmers to attend this years EMC2 Fest. I am in the process of developing a relationship with a third programmer with Linux experience and enthusiasm and real world electrical / electronic engineering capabilities. I attended this year's EMC2 Fest and met with Stuart. Stuart and I may have some business opportunities (unrelated to EMC2, mechanical device stuff) that we will pursue and hopefully realize a profit. We already know that some of the profits from Stuart's business assist in the testing and development of EMC2. Has this hurt EMC2? Would it hurt EMC2 if another business was functioning like Stuart's (making a profit and using some of the proceeds to advance EMC2)? Perhaps instead of fearing an unknown difficulty resulting from the involvement of businesses, businesses could be coached on how to join the project and the community in such a way as to preserve and advance EMC2 as a free and open software package. Imagine the potential benefit of a few or even several businesses assisting EMC2 like Stuart's. I aspire to achieve that. I would welcome any coaching that would enable me to understand how to participate with but not violate the EMC2 GPL. Have a good day, Jim Fleig 585 975-9618 On Dec 9, 2010, at 12:50 AM, Edward Bernard yankeelena2...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. - Original Message From: Anonymous Investor backgroundpart...@gmail.com To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 9:10:13 AM Subject: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC *Business Opportunity related to EMC2* EMC2 may be well written CNC control software, but it does not appear to be making progress entering mainstream applications. We believe that the largest impediment to success is the lack of a full scope supplier. We feel that the mainstream machine builder community, meaning hobby, professional, and OEM, remains outside the open source community. Furthermore, we feel that the solution is not to try and bring machine builders into the open source community, but rather to bring complete solutions to machine builders. We propose the creation of a company which delivers EMC based solutions, essentially the Red Hat of CNC. To that end, we will finance such a company. *Perspective:* There are quite a few hobby oriented suppliers, based on Mach3, TurboCAD, and other solutions, which offer everything including ballscrews, motors, drivers, and circuit boards. These companies serve their customers well, but they do not come up to the level of professionalism that is necessary to attract serious commercial machine builders. There are mid-level suppliers, such as Flashcut, CamSoft, or Centroid, which offer reasonable value but cannot provide the security, vendor independence, or continuity
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On 12/9/2010 12:50 AM, Edward Bernard wrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. My comment? An unknown entity using an unrevealing email address makes a vague offer on an open mail list to finance someone to create a company to do something, provided the someone does all the work developing a viable business plan. Sorry, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy. I may be an incorrigible skeptic, but doesn't it seem reasonable to think anyone serious about forming a Red Hat of CNC would directly approach the core EMC2 developers instead of floating a proposal that has all the earmarks of a phishing expedition? Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, Kent PS - perusal of the EMC2 mail list archives will turn up a number of past conversations about the possibility of commercial support of EMC2 which I feel no need to rehash. -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
I feel the same way. i On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Kent A. Reed knbr...@erols.com wrote: On 12/9/2010 12:50 AM, Edward Bernard wrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. My comment? An unknown entity using an unrevealing email address makes a vague offer on an open mail list to finance someone to create a company to do something, provided the someone does all the work developing a viable business plan. Sorry, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy. I may be an incorrigible skeptic, but doesn't it seem reasonable to think anyone serious about forming a Red Hat of CNC would directly approach the core EMC2 developers instead of floating a proposal that has all the earmarks of a phishing expedition? Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, Kent PS - perusal of the EMC2 mail list archives will turn up a number of past conversations about the possibility of commercial support of EMC2 which I feel no need to rehash. -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
+1 Il 09/12/2010 14:49, Igor Chudov ha scritto: I feel the same way. i On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Kent A. Reedknbr...@erols.com wrote: On 12/9/2010 12:50 AM, Edward Bernard wrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. My comment? An unknown entity using an unrevealing email address makes a vague offer on an open mail list to finance someone to create a company to do something, provided the someone does all the work developing a viable business plan. Sorry, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy. I may be an incorrigible skeptic, but doesn't it seem reasonable to think anyone serious about forming a Red Hat of CNC would directly approach the core EMC2 developers instead of floating a proposal that has all the earmarks of a phishing expedition? Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, Kent PS - perusal of the EMC2 mail list archives will turn up a number of past conversations about the possibility of commercial support of EMC2 which I feel no need to rehash. -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Hello gentlemen, regardless of this offer being serious or phoney or fraud, I think commerce will, like in other instances, spoil the character of the EMC project. So far, and I have been following this mail group for about two years, it was a playground for addicted engineers, maybe even freaks of automated machine control. In those two years, and I count 3677 mail contributions so far, their contents have changed already from a harmless intellectual or mechanical game toward commercial application problems. I regret this process from technical to commercial money making interest. I believe that the complete freedom without economic constraints which the developers can afford is one of the main drives for the progress of development of EMC. On the long run, letting any money oriented part gain influence to EMC means restricting this freedom by pressure to drirect developing with respect to economic, not technical growth. And restricting intellectual freedom means restricted quality. This all said without looking at the question of the chances of success or failure for such a project. I used to have a lot of machines, mostly electronically controlled, in the shop I had to care for as a facility manager for many decades (mills, lathes and a 80 ton sheet metal press plus a few hundred air and water conditioning systems and other building equipment). Now and then a control system (on a mechanically sound machine) would fail and the provider had disappeared from market or was unable or unwilling to help. How often did I hear the sentence buy a new machine, that's more economic! Being a technical addict (and a scrooge), I had the electronics repaired some way or other, and the machine was used on. (But if there had been severe economic constraints like delivery time etc., maybe I would have reacted differently). But from my own experience, I can very well imagine the feeling of some of the EMC delelopers, say in 2007 or 8, standing in front of a electronically defective, but mechanically sound machine thinking can't throw this machine into the junk container! Now that this period of my life is over, for the first time, I feel free to develop my electronics and machines solely for my own private purposes. This is one of my hobbies. Therefore, I would never in my life produce hard- or software or even parts with my machines, because in this case I would lose my hobby and had to look out for a new one. I very much appreciated the idea of EMC being a free GNU-like CNC system, just like the Linux-idea and other, non-commercial projects. Leave it at that! Peter Blodow Anonymous Investor schrieb: *Business Opportunity related to EMC2* EMC2 may be well written CNC control software, but it does not appear to be making progress entering mainstream applications. We believe that the largest impediment to success is the lack of a full scope supplier. We feel that the mainstream machine builder community, meaning hobby, professional, and OEM, remains outside the open source community. Furthermore, we feel that the solution is not to try and bring machine builders into the open source community, but rather to bring complete solutions to machine builders. We propose the creation of a company which delivers EMC based solutions, essentially the Red Hat of CNC. To that end, we will finance such a company. *Perspective:* There are quite a few hobby oriented suppliers, based on Mach3, TurboCAD, and other solutions, which offer everything including ballscrews, motors, drivers, and circuit boards. These companies serve their customers well, but they do not come up to the level of professionalism that is necessary to attract serious commercial machine builders. There are mid-level suppliers, such as Flashcut, CamSoft, or Centroid, which offer reasonable value but cannot provide the security, vendor independence, or continuity of supply, which would be available with a more open technology. Of course the 800 lb gorilla is Fanuc, having sold 2.2 million control systems. While offering the ultimate in performance, Fanuc solutions come with minimum vendor independence and dismal ROI for those only needed mid-level performance. We believe a full service, professional grade supplier, offering complete control systems solutions, can be an effective competitor and is sorely needed by all levels of machine builders. We are not proposing open source hardware, but rather combining open source software with support and conventional industrial components to develop full spectrum solutions. This is not a matter of welcoming machine builders into the open source community; rather it is an issue of bringing the resources and value of open source to the market, offering attractive ROI to both customers and investor. *Details and How to Proceed:* We are looking to invest in a start-up business which meets the general goals as outlined above. We
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
3. The user interface needs a lot of critical thinking still, to bring it up to scratch. Have a good look at the latest FANUCs for instance. but the UI is miles ahead of mach3. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
I think worrying about EMC2 becoming overly commercialized right now is a bit like worrying that you may be killed by a falling space elevator ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator). Maybe it is possible but you are probably safe for at least a few decades. In the worst case, I think what you would see is a forking of the project, with a commercial company maintaining a set of code that, while open-source, over time becomes completely incompatible with the main EMC2 branch. Perhaps this becomes much more popular than the EMC2 project. As it happens, this describes almost exactly what happened with the original EMC and Mach. Has Mach's popularity made the EMC2 project weaker? I don't think so. I think it probably does more to grow the whole DIY CNC movement (where the lines between amateur and professional can be very fuzzy) which eventually leads more people to the EMC2 Project. On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Peter Blodow p.blo...@dreki.de wrote: Hello gentlemen, regardless of this offer being serious or phoney or fraud, I think commerce will, like in other instances, spoil the character of the EMC project. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Colin, I agree. While I have big reservations about the genuiness of the offer that started this topic, I would be personally excited by a commercial project that would use EMC2, while complying with its licensing. The separation of control and GUI that exists in EMC means that we can have competing UIs, some of which may be more suitable to machine operators using them, as opposed to DIY tinkerers. As a DIY tinkerer, I personally am happy with the existing UI, though I wish for somewhat better integration of subroutines into wizards, along the lines of ngcgui. In any case, the best hoped for outcome would be that some large enhancements of EMC2 would make it back to us to be reused elsewhere. Say, machine builders would contribute to EMC2 to make their machines controllable by EMC. This is not very far fetched, since this is what happens to the Linux kernel. i -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 21:50 -0800, Edward Bernard wrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. I think it would be interesting to hear from Smithy and Tormach to see how EMC2 has affected their business. It doesn't appear that their products have affected EMC2. I'm not trying to say their use of EMC2 is good or bad, it just may help to explore some of the issues. As far as Anonymous goes, I think he/she is just shaking the tree to see if any fruit falls, not plant and water any seeds. It is what is is, nothing more (neither good, nor bad). My guess any way. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Hi all, I can't see commercial support as being detrimental to EMC2 in any way. Take MPM (Stuart's shop) as an example. He has driven features he needed; eg. comp for an axis being out of tram. He uses features not usually needed; encoder's and glass scales on an axis. Not everyone has a 5 axis machine to use and his use forms an excellent test bed. He has hosted several meeting of the developers to his benefit and ours. The most recent example is the restored American robot. Now I admit this is not the same as someone selling support for EMC maybe accompanied by their own UI but it provides part of the model. Go EMC! Dave ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
I could not agree more Arnold On 12/09/2010 02:44 PM, Kent A. Reed wrote: On 12/9/2010 12:50 AM, Edward Bernard wrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. My comment? An unknown entity using an unrevealing email address makes a vague offer on an open mail list to finance someone to create a company to do something, provided the someone does all the work developing a viable business plan. Sorry, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy. I may be an incorrigible skeptic, but doesn't it seem reasonable to think anyone serious about forming a Red Hat of CNC would directly approach the core EMC2 developers instead of floating a proposal that has all the earmarks of a phishing expedition? Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, Kent PS - perusal of the EMC2 mail list archives will turn up a number of past conversations about the possibility of commercial support of EMC2 which I feel no need to rehash. -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Anonymous Investor wrote: We believe that the largest impediment to success is the lack of a full scope supplier. I made a few complete, turnkey systems for people. One of the problems is that if you manufacture anything electronic, you are required by law to have it tested for radio frequency emissions by a registered testing lab. You are also supposed, but not required, to have it tested for safety. In the area of machine tools, the level of fault-tolerant safety gear most labs would require would double the price of the parts. Just the FCC emissions testing now runs over $10K. And, the big problem is every customer wants a variation, 2 through 6 axes, brush or brushless motors, etc. And, EVERY different combination requires a new test and $10K. Change a part on one of the boards, and you have to do all the testing over again. So, that is why I supply boards, but not turnkey systems. Some of my products are used by sizable aerospace shops in daily production. Jon -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
I agree, especially on ngcgui. I want to do dome work with that once my arduino pendant project is done. Currently I am designing some PCBs for that and getting my code cleaned up. I'm thinking about selling kits but releasing the source openly. It's interesting from the perspective of looking at how you make money in an open-source environment. The bar for value add is definitely a lot higher. Even hardware is tricky if you factor in the Chinese eBay clones that will follow any successful product. In end user terms, EMC2 is plagued by the same crisis of abundance that Linux has. For everything you want to do, there are five possible options, all of which are somewhat incomplete, and none of which are documented. I run a software company I started six years ago, and there is nothing more frustrating than the weeks of work it takes to deal with the final 5% or so of feature completeness and bug fixing. I would love to ditch that and move on to building something new, but customers won't let me get away with that. So here we have HAL, classic ladder, and user modules all serving related purposes in controlling and configuring machines. It gives you great flexibility but it's not easy if you haven't done it before. Compare this to Mach, where almost everything boils down to menus and macros. The integration of the GUI and backend makes custom functionality quite easy. In my view the underlying core has some serious limitations but for many users these are probably less important than the simplicity and familiarity with windows. I am also impressed with the level of activity on Mach forums, not just raw numbers but the projects people are working on. It sometimes feels like EMC is for people who like building machines while Mach is for people who like using them. This is partly unfair but it is there. I think more commercial users would bring a lot more focus to improving the rough edges that most of us are used to living with. I don't see a Red Hat model for it yet though. I think you would need to offer a complete brain in a box, both hardware and software. The low end of the market (eg Tormach) will need a lot more simplicity as they don't want to deal with people who have problems with Ubuntu. And the high end I don't see switching without a really good reason. Linux rose because customers wanted to get away from expensive proprietary hardware. Where is the x86 of the CNC world? Will the Chinese figure out how to make a machine for half the price of Gene Haas? Outside of that, customers and vendors seem to be in equilibrium. Vendors compete in large part on their controls and would want to continue doing so. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 9, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: Colin, I agree. While I have big reservations about the genuiness of the offer that started this topic, I would be personally excited by a commercial project that would use EMC2, while complying with its licensing. The separation of control and GUI that exists in EMC means that we can have competing UIs, some of which may be more suitable to machine operators using them, as opposed to DIY tinkerers. As a DIY tinkerer, I personally am happy with the existing UI, though I wish for somewhat better integration of subroutines into wizards, along the lines of ngcgui. In any case, the best hoped for outcome would be that some large enhancements of EMC2 would make it back to us to be reused elsewhere. Say, machine builders would contribute to EMC2 to make their machines controllable by EMC. This is not very far fetched, since this is what happens to the Linux kernel. i -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: So, that is why I supply boards, but not turnkey systems. Some of my products are used by sizable aerospace shops in daily production. And your products are pretty good. Not the bottom of the barrel cheapest, but very straightforward to use and time saving. i -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Colin K cwk@gmail.com wrote: I agree, especially on ngcgui. I want to do dome work with that once my arduino pendant project is done. Currently I am designing some PCBs for that and getting my code cleaned up. I'm thinking about selling kits but releasing the source openly. It's interesting from the perspective of looking at how you make money in an open-source environment. The bar for value add is definitely a lot higher. Even hardware is tricky if you factor in the Chinese eBay clones that will follow any successful product. In end user terms, EMC2 is plagued by the same crisis of abundance that Linux has. For everything you want to do, there are five possible options, all of which are somewhat incomplete, and none of which are documented. I run a software company I started six years ago, and there is nothing more frustrating than the weeks of work it takes to deal with the final 5% or so of feature completeness and bug fixing. I would love to ditch that and move on to building something new, but customers won't let me get away with that. So here we have HAL, classic ladder, and user modules all serving related purposes in controlling and configuring machines. It gives you great flexibility but it's not easy if you haven't done it before. I am extremely and openly critical of many open source products, but I have to say that EMC2 is on top as far as documentation, ease of configuration, etc is concerned. To add to this excellent support, and you would know why I am very happy. EMC2 is also very stable. The documentation is clear, abundant, and actually correct. The tasks that users try to accomplish with EMC2, such as retrofitting old machines or making new machines, are daunting and many of us are first timers, myself included. This is why using EMC2 is so difficult, not because EMC2 is hard to use. I had to learn everything about CNC as part of my project. i -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Well said. The support the developers give EMC is uncommon even among commercial software. Mach gets a lot of support from vendors because the user base is bigger. But you can have a step/dir machine up and running under EMC very quickly. If a machine was running under Mach, it probably would take less than an hour to get EMC running the machine. I know I've gotten steppers spinning in less than an hour, and that was from the state where everything was in a box and I had to scrounge for wire. And I'm sure there are some industrial users that are quietly using EMC without telling us. Eric On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: I am extremely and openly critical of many open source products, but I have to say that EMC2 is on top as far as documentation, ease of configuration, etc is concerned. To add to this excellent support, and you would know why I am very happy. EMC2 is also very stable. The documentation is clear, abundant, and actually correct. The tasks that users try to accomplish with EMC2, such as retrofitting old machines or making new machines, are daunting and many of us are first timers, myself included. This is why using EMC2 is so difficult, not because EMC2 is hard to use. I had to learn everything about CNC as part of my project. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Lest I give the wrong impression, I do agree that the current state of the project is very impressive and the people who have built it up have done a wonderful job on many fronts. Stepconf has evolved into a very solid tool and the user community is ENORMOUSLY helpful and generous. That more than anything has made me want to contribute something of value back. I don't think of other products as competition so much as places to pick up good ideas from. To me, the bigger the EMC user community, the more interesting things will grow out of it. On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Eric Keller eekel...@psu.edu wrote: Well said. The support the developers give EMC is uncommon even among commercial software. Mach gets a lot of support from vendors because the user base is bigger. But you can have a step/dir machine up and running under EMC very quickly. If a machine was running under Mach, it probably would take less than an hour to get EMC running the machine. I know I've gotten steppers spinning in less than an hour, and that was from the state where everything was in a box and I had to scrounge for wire. And I'm sure there are some industrial users that are quietly using EMC without telling us. Eric On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: I am extremely and openly critical of many open source products, but I have to say that EMC2 is on top as far as documentation, ease of configuration, etc is concerned. To add to this excellent support, and you would know why I am very happy. EMC2 is also very stable. The documentation is clear, abundant, and actually correct. The tasks that users try to accomplish with EMC2, such as retrofitting old machines or making new machines, are daunting and many of us are first timers, myself included. This is why using EMC2 is so difficult, not because EMC2 is hard to use. I had to learn everything about CNC as part of my project. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On 12/09/2010 02:38 PM, Igor Chudov wrote: I am extremely and openly critical of many open source products, but I have to say that EMC2 is on top as far as documentation, ease of configuration, etc is concerned. To add to this excellent support, and you would know why I am very happy. EMC2 is also very stable. The documentation is clear, abundant, and actually correct. Most end users are blissfully ignorant of the systems integrator who puts up with the headaches that end users are paying to have removed before they get their stuff. I say stuff because my comments are about the other most successful computer operating system available. Years ago I bought an Ensoniq sound card that was inexpensive, AND great sounding. The trouble was, when the auto-run of the driver CD ran, it couldn't find the driver files, and installed a dummy hardware for the sound card. I called tech support and got some weird instructions about renaming a whole bunch of files, and trying again. After weeks of headaches, I found I just had to delete the audio device, and when auto-run did it's thing, show it where on the CD it hid the files. If someone bought a PC with this sound card, some technician had already had his 2 week (or perhaps 3 hour) headache finding out what was wrong. Years ago I bought an EMachines PC with XP on it. The motherboard died after a couple of years, and when I bought a new motherboard, Microsoft said I needed to buy a new copy of Windows to go with it. I deliberated on whether to get XP or MCE. MCE was more expensive, but I figured being able to play DVDs out of the box would be worth $30 extra. You can imagine how steamed I was when I found out that MCE couldn't play any DVDs at all without about $50 worth of help from someone else. MCE shipped without any non-MS CODECs. I found out that the system integrator was the guy that got to bear the headaches so that the person buying a new PC could just use it. That's why you get some other third party version of media player with a new PC, the optical drive/media player bundle provides the missing CODECs Now if one of the biggest companies on the face of the Earth needs system integrators to make things work, why should we expect EMC2 to just work out of the box? The guy with the knowledge to make an EMC2 machine work properly is valuable, and should get paid for his knowledge and labor (unless he/she is doing it for his/her own hobby, then what she/he can make is probably the payment sought.) With tools like latency test, the stepper configurator, and comp you guys have even made the system integrator's job quite a bit easier (for simple installations), and on here you provide the help for the tougher systems. My hat's off to you guys who can select the right servo motors/drives/boards and tune a system to work with great accuracy. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 07:42:34 -0800 (PST), you wrote: 3. The user interface needs a lot of critical thinking still, to bring it up to scratch. Have a good look at the latest FANUCs for instance. but the UI is miles ahead of mach3. Not for touch screen lathe users ! It also has it's quirks - two for starters that really annoy, first is nasty IMO - Axis, click on spindle start, spindle races off at some arbitrary speed. Need to press + twice before you can control speed. Other is an annoyance. Running multiple iterations of the same job, screen should CTRL K after M30 so you can see at a glance, and from a distance, where it's up to on subsequent runs on the backplot screen without having to manually type it before pressing Start. Steve Blackmore -- -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Igor Chudov wrote: On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: So, that is why I supply boards, but not turnkey systems. Some of my products are used by sizable aerospace shops in daily production. And your products are pretty good. Not the bottom of the barrel cheapest, but very straightforward to use and time saving. Yes, for any integrator, the first one takes some learning. But, if an integrator wanted to standardize on my products, the second machine would go like clockwork! (I retrofitted a Series-II Boss 5 machine at Roland Freistad's shop in one day, including installing servo motors on it. It was not a finished retrofit, just nothing to 3 axis movement in one day.) That, of course, is true with any of the EMC2 interface products, or probably with Mach3 as well. Somebody really could go into business making kits for some specific (Iron) platform like Bridgeport BOSS retrofits. But, I never seem to get two requests for the same type of machine. Jon -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 10:42:44PM +, Steve Blackmore wrote: On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 07:42:34 -0800 (PST), you wrote: 3. The user interface needs a lot of critical thinking still, to bring it up to scratch. Have a good look at the latest FANUCs for instance. but the UI is miles ahead of mach3. Not for touch screen lathe users ! Touchy has had lathe support for a while now, but I'm not using it yet. Have you tried it? It also has it's quirks - two for starters that really annoy, first is nasty IMO - Axis, click on spindle start, spindle races off at some arbitrary speed. Need to press + twice before you can control speed. I can't reproduce this - can you give more details? Can you reproduce it in sim? Other is an annoyance. Running multiple iterations of the same job, screen should CTRL K after M30 so you can see at a glance, and from a distance, where it's up to on subsequent runs on the backplot screen without having to manually type it before pressing Start. I agree that would be nice. Chris -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
*Business Opportunity related to EMC2* EMC2 may be well written CNC control software, but it does not appear to be making progress entering mainstream applications. We believe that the largest impediment to success is the lack of a full scope supplier. We feel that the mainstream machine builder community, meaning hobby, professional, and OEM, remains outside the open source community. Furthermore, we feel that the solution is not to try and bring machine builders into the open source community, but rather to bring complete solutions to machine builders. We propose the creation of a company which delivers EMC based solutions, essentially the Red Hat of CNC. To that end, we will finance such a company. *Perspective:* There are quite a few hobby oriented suppliers, based on Mach3, TurboCAD, and other solutions, which offer everything including ballscrews, motors, drivers, and circuit boards. These companies serve their customers well, but they do not come up to the level of professionalism that is necessary to attract serious commercial machine builders. There are mid-level suppliers, such as Flashcut, CamSoft, or Centroid, which offer reasonable value but cannot provide the security, vendor independence, or continuity of supply, which would be available with a more open technology. Of course the 800 lb gorilla is Fanuc, having sold 2.2 million control systems. While offering the ultimate in performance, Fanuc solutions come with minimum vendor independence and dismal ROI for those only needed mid-level performance. We believe a full service, professional grade supplier, offering complete control systems solutions, can be an effective competitor and is sorely needed by all levels of machine builders. We are not proposing open source hardware, but rather combining open source software with support and conventional industrial components to develop full spectrum solutions. This is not a matter of welcoming machine builders into the open source community; rather it is an issue of bringing the resources and value of open source to the market, offering attractive ROI to both customers and investor. *Details and How to Proceed:* We are looking to invest in a start-up business which meets the general goals as outlined above. We will provide the majority of capital and mentoring as needed. We will not participate in, nor attempt to control, the day to day activities of the business. If you want this to be your start-up business, submit a business plan to the email of Anonymous Investor at the address [backgroundpartner at gmail.com]. All submissions will remain confidential. There are many resources available for guidance on the development of a business plan, Google it. There is no specific timeline for this venture, but we will keep it open for at least 2 months. This is not a contest; it’s an investment and a partnership. A credible plan may be reviewed with suggestions for improvement. We have limited time for dialog and are unlikely to answer email from those with idle curiosity. *Anti-Spam and Scam Issues:* The legitimacy of this opportunity should speak for itself. This offer is only going out to the EMC email list and at no time will we ask for money, deposits, or personal financial information. Our anonymity will be removed for those whose negotiations appear credible and who sign non-disclosure agreement. Yours, Anonymous Investor -- What happens now with your Lotus Notes apps - do you make another costly upgrade, or settle for being marooned without product support? Time to move off Lotus Notes and onto the cloud with Force.com, apps are easier to build, use, and manage than apps on traditional platforms. Sign up for the Lotus Notes Migration Kit to learn more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/salesforce-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. - Original Message From: Anonymous Investor backgroundpart...@gmail.com To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 9:10:13 AM Subject: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC *Business Opportunity related to EMC2* EMC2 may be well written CNC control software, but it does not appear to be making progress entering mainstream applications. We believe that the largest impediment to success is the lack of a full scope supplier. We feel that the mainstream machine builder community, meaning hobby, professional, and OEM, remains outside the open source community. Furthermore, we feel that the solution is not to try and bring machine builders into the open source community, but rather to bring complete solutions to machine builders. We propose the creation of a company which delivers EMC based solutions, essentially the Red Hat of CNC. To that end, we will finance such a company. *Perspective:* There are quite a few hobby oriented suppliers, based on Mach3, TurboCAD, and other solutions, which offer everything including ballscrews, motors, drivers, and circuit boards. These companies serve their customers well, but they do not come up to the level of professionalism that is necessary to attract serious commercial machine builders. There are mid-level suppliers, such as Flashcut, CamSoft, or Centroid, which offer reasonable value but cannot provide the security, vendor independence, or continuity of supply, which would be available with a more open technology. Of course the 800 lb gorilla is Fanuc, having sold 2.2 million control systems. While offering the ultimate in performance, Fanuc solutions come with minimum vendor independence and dismal ROI for those only needed mid-level performance. We believe a full service, professional grade supplier, offering complete control systems solutions, can be an effective competitor and is sorely needed by all levels of machine builders. We are not proposing open source hardware, but rather combining open source software with support and conventional industrial components to develop full spectrum solutions. This is not a matter of welcoming machine builders into the open source community; rather it is an issue of bringing the resources and value of open source to the market, offering attractive ROI to both customers and investor. *Details and How to Proceed:* We are looking to invest in a start-up business which meets the general goals as outlined above. We will provide the majority of capital and mentoring as needed. We will not participate in, nor attempt to control, the day to day activities of the business. If you want this to be your start-up business, submit a business plan to the email of Anonymous Investor at the address [backgroundpartner at gmail.com]. All submissions will remain confidential. There are many resources available for guidance on the development of a business plan, Google it. There is no specific timeline for this venture, but we will keep it open for at least 2 months. This is not a contest; it’s an investment and a partnership. A credible plan may be reviewed with suggestions for improvement. We have limited time for dialog and are unlikely to answer email from those with idle curiosity. *Anti-Spam and Scam Issues:* The legitimacy of this opportunity should speak for itself. This offer is only going out to the EMC email list and at no time will we ask for money, deposits, or personal financial information. Our anonymity will be removed for those whose negotiations appear credible and who sign non-disclosure agreement. Yours, Anonymous Investor -- What happens now with your Lotus Notes apps - do you make another costly upgrade, or settle for being marooned without product support? Time to move off Lotus Notes and onto the cloud with Force.com, apps are easier to build, use, and manage than apps on traditional platforms. Sign up for the Lotus Notes Migration Kit to learn more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/salesforce-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- This SF Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: WikiLeaks The End of the Free Internet http://p.sf.net/sfu/therealnews-com ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC
Hallo, 1. EMC appeals to the hobbyists. It has a good basic structure inherited from NIST but lately lots of things have been happening that are not so well structured and documented. 2. Here and there it gets a bit stale already. 3. The user interface needs a lot of critical thinking still, to bring it up to scratch. Have a good look at the latest FANUCs for instance. 4. So to me it is a perfect solution for specials. But it will need a LOT of work to make i appealing to the mass market. In fact I do heavy evangelizing in the workplace, but the resistance is unbelievable. 5. So personally I will not invest in such a company. But your mileage may differ. 6. Where money comes in through the frontdoor, trust leaves through the backdoor; and the most important thing is NOT going to happen anytime real soon, because now we are argueing. 7. So I propose we rather consentrate on enjoyment and see if we cannot clean up a few things in the software here and there. Perhaps see if we can make a professional version that costs a bit more in switches etc, but that will be very presentable. Regards, Jan de Kruyf. On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Edward Bernard yankeelena2...@yahoo.comwrote: I'm surprised there were no comments on this. I'm wondering how such a venture could effect our beloved software. - Original Message From: Anonymous Investor backgroundpart...@gmail.com To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 9:10:13 AM Subject: [Emc-users] Expansion of EMC *Business Opportunity related to EMC2* EMC2 may be well written CNC control software, but it does not appear to be making progress entering mainstream applications. We believe that the largest impediment to success is the lack of a full scope supplier. We feel that the mainstream machine builder community, meaning hobby, professional, and OEM, remains outside the open source community. Furthermore, we feel that the solution is not to try and bring machine builders into the open source community, but rather to bring complete solutions to machine builders. We propose the creation of a company which delivers EMC based solutions, essentially the Red Hat of CNC. To that end, we will finance such a company. *Perspective:* There are quite a few hobby oriented suppliers, based on Mach3, TurboCAD, and other solutions, which offer everything including ballscrews, motors, drivers, and circuit boards. These companies serve their customers well, but they do not come up to the level of professionalism that is necessary to attract serious commercial machine builders. There are mid-level suppliers, such as Flashcut, CamSoft, or Centroid, which offer reasonable value but cannot provide the security, vendor independence, or continuity of supply, which would be available with a more open technology. Of course the 800 lb gorilla is Fanuc, having sold 2.2 million control systems. While offering the ultimate in performance, Fanuc solutions come with minimum vendor independence and dismal ROI for those only needed mid-level performance. We believe a full service, professional grade supplier, offering complete control systems solutions, can be an effective competitor and is sorely needed by all levels of machine builders. We are not proposing open source hardware, but rather combining open source software with support and conventional industrial components to develop full spectrum solutions. This is not a matter of welcoming machine builders into the open source community; rather it is an issue of bringing the resources and value of open source to the market, offering attractive ROI to both customers and investor. *Details and How to Proceed:* We are looking to invest in a start-up business which meets the general goals as outlined above. We will provide the majority of capital and mentoring as needed. We will not participate in, nor attempt to control, the day to day activities of the business. If you want this to be your start-up business, submit a business plan to the email of Anonymous Investor at the address [backgroundpartner at gmail.com]. All submissions will remain confidential. There are many resources available for guidance on the development of a business plan, Google it. There is no specific timeline for this venture, but we will keep it open for at least 2 months. This is not a contest; it’s an investment and a partnership. A credible plan may be reviewed with suggestions for improvement. We have limited time for dialog and are unlikely to answer email from those with idle curiosity. *Anti-Spam and Scam Issues:* The legitimacy of this opportunity should speak for itself. This offer is only going out to the EMC email list and at no time will we ask for money, deposits, or personal financial information. Our anonymity will be removed for those whose negotiations appear credible and who sign non-disclosure agreement
