[Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[Todd Zuercher]

How useable are Fanuc's servos and amps with Linuxcnc?  My understanding is 
that it is very involved to try to force them to work with anything other than 
a Fanuc control, if it is even possible.  With the newer it is the worse it 
gets.  What is the current lowdown on this exactly, approximately what age or 
amp models are impossible.  For the ones that are possible, how workable are 
they really.  I've seen some theoretical discussions, of how some of them might 
be controlled, but no real proof of how well it actually works in practice.

Or are we still at the point on a 20 year old machine we want to refit for use 
in a production factory setting, where we are best off stripping every thing 
with a Fanuc label off, reselling what we can on ebay, and buying something 
more generic to replace it with (or sticking with Fanuc)?

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 at 18:11, Todd Zuercher  wrote:
>
> How useable are Fanuc's servos and amps with Linuxcnc?

The red-caps are pretty easy, I think. The 4-line commutation signal
is handled by a Pico hardware interface, or can be handled in software
(the blcd component) and converted to standard Hall or position.
Though possibly not as fast as you need for all applications.

I think that the STMBL supports both red-cap and yellow-cap, but there
is the usual problem with STMBL, availability.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[Todd Zuercher]

Yes, it is possible to read the encoders of of some red caps with Linuxcnc.  
But not all red caps are the same, other than they are all 3 phase motors, 
(synchronous or asynchronous).  Some have incremental encoders or some are 
serial and I'm pretty sure there are multiple kinds of serial encoders.

But what about the amps?  All the ones I've worked with (from about 2002+) were 
connected to the Fanuc control via an optical serial bus.  Are these all 
hopeless?  On the surface they don't look to be any more help than an STMBL 
drive made from unobtanium.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: andy pugh  
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 3:33 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 at 18:11, Todd Zuercher  wrote:
>
> How useable are Fanuc's servos and amps with Linuxcnc?

The red-caps are pretty easy, I think. The 4-line commutation signal is handled 
by a Pico hardware interface, or can be handled in software (the blcd 
component) and converted to standard Hall or position.
Though possibly not as fast as you need for all applications.

I think that the STMBL supports both red-cap and yellow-cap, but there is the 
usual problem with STMBL, availability.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[Jon Elson]

On 01/27/2021 11:35 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:

How useable are Fanuc's servos and amps with Linuxcnc?  My understanding is 
that it is very involved to try to force them to work with anything other than 
a Fanuc control
I make converters for the two most common types of Fanuc 
encoders used on brushless motors.
I also make a digital servo amp for them that can be used 
with my PWM controller.
The older "red cap" motors had encoders with standard 
quadrature plus index output, but the commutation signal was 
proprietary.  I have a board that converts the commutation 
to industry-compatible "Hall" signals.


The newer type is serial, but my converter produces 
industry-compatible quadrature plus index, plus the "Hall" 
signals. Note there are absolute and incremental versions of 
these encoders.
The problem with the incremental versions, like (alpha)I64, 
is that they are lost when power is applied, so they need 
you to crank the motor past the index location by hand after 
every power on, before commutation is available.  So, these 
encoders need power-off brakes and battery backup if the 
control is ever turned off.
The absolute version have additional low-res data tracks 
that allow the encoder to know the angle immediately at 
power-on, so no battery is needed to have commutation 
immediately on power on.


Now, the Fanuc servo amps are more difficult, as about 1984 
they stopped releasing any documentation on their 
electronics.  So, it is essentially impossible to find any 
schematics or connection info for their amps.  Most of the 
brushless amps take SIX PWM signals per axis, so
the controller sends separate PWM to EACH transistor.  This 
moves all the smarts to the controller, but it complicates 
things a bit.


Jon


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[andrew beck]

You can buy Chinese yaskawa copy ac servo drives 2.4kw for like 260usd.  So
it's just not worth it now.  I just sold my fanic drives in the end.  Its
so nice to just bolt on some matched servo drives that just work out of the
box.

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021, 14:20 Jon Elson,  wrote:

> On 01/27/2021 11:35 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > How useable are Fanuc's servos and amps with Linuxcnc?  My understanding
> is that it is very involved to try to force them to work with anything
> other than a Fanuc control
> I make converters for the two most common types of Fanuc
> encoders used on brushless motors.
> I also make a digital servo amp for them that can be used
> with my PWM controller.
> The older "red cap" motors had encoders with standard
> quadrature plus index output, but the commutation signal was
> proprietary.  I have a board that converts the commutation
> to industry-compatible "Hall" signals.
>
> The newer type is serial, but my converter produces
> industry-compatible quadrature plus index, plus the "Hall"
> signals. Note there are absolute and incremental versions of
> these encoders.
> The problem with the incremental versions, like (alpha)I64,
> is that they are lost when power is applied, so they need
> you to crank the motor past the index location by hand after
> every power on, before commutation is available.  So, these
> encoders need power-off brakes and battery backup if the
> control is ever turned off.
> The absolute version have additional low-res data tracks
> that allow the encoder to know the angle immediately at
> power-on, so no battery is needed to have commutation
> immediately on power on.
>
> Now, the Fanuc servo amps are more difficult, as about 1984
> they stopped releasing any documentation on their
> electronics.  So, it is essentially impossible to find any
> schematics or connection info for their amps.  Most of the
> brushless amps take SIX PWM signals per axis, so
> the controller sends separate PWM to EACH transistor.  This
> moves all the smarts to the controller, but it complicates
> things a bit.
>
> Jon
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 28 January 2021 04:13:39 andrew beck wrote:

> Chinese yaskawa copy ac servo drives 2.4kw

URL?

Thanks Andrew

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[John Dammeyer]

Just be careful and ask the supplier what type of encoder is mounted on the 
servo.  There are encoders and there are encoders. My http://en.bergerda.com/ 
servos use a Japanese brand which they claim are better than some of the 
Chinese ones out there but are also considerably more expensive.   Differential 
output from the encoder is a must have to reduce the effects of electrical 
noise.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: andrew beck [mailto:andrewbeck0...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-28-21 1:14 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?
> 
> You can buy Chinese yaskawa copy ac servo drives 2.4kw for like 260usd.  So
> it's just not worth it now.  I just sold my fanic drives in the end.  Its
> so nice to just bolt on some matched servo drives that just work out of the
> box.
> 
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021, 14:20 Jon Elson,  wrote:
> 
> > On 01/27/2021 11:35 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > > How useable are Fanuc's servos and amps with Linuxcnc?  My understanding
> > is that it is very involved to try to force them to work with anything
> > other than a Fanuc control
> > I make converters for the two most common types of Fanuc
> > encoders used on brushless motors.
> > I also make a digital servo amp for them that can be used
> > with my PWM controller.
> > The older "red cap" motors had encoders with standard
> > quadrature plus index output, but the commutation signal was
> > proprietary.  I have a board that converts the commutation
> > to industry-compatible "Hall" signals.
> >
> > The newer type is serial, but my converter produces
> > industry-compatible quadrature plus index, plus the "Hall"
> > signals. Note there are absolute and incremental versions of
> > these encoders.
> > The problem with the incremental versions, like (alpha)I64,
> > is that they are lost when power is applied, so they need
> > you to crank the motor past the index location by hand after
> > every power on, before commutation is available.  So, these
> > encoders need power-off brakes and battery backup if the
> > control is ever turned off.
> > The absolute version have additional low-res data tracks
> > that allow the encoder to know the angle immediately at
> > power-on, so no battery is needed to have commutation
> > immediately on power on.
> >
> > Now, the Fanuc servo amps are more difficult, as about 1984
> > they stopped releasing any documentation on their
> > electronics.  So, it is essentially impossible to find any
> > schematics or connection info for their amps.  Most of the
> > brushless amps take SIX PWM signals per axis, so
> > the controller sends separate PWM to EACH transistor.  This
> > moves all the smarts to the controller, but it complicates
> > things a bit.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 28 January 2021 12:09:00 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Just be careful and ask the supplier what type of encoder is mounted
> on the servo.  There are encoders and there are encoders. My
> http://en.bergerda.com/ servos use a Japanese brand which they claim
> are better than some of the Chinese ones out there but are also
> considerably more expensive.   Differential output from the encoder is
> a must have to reduce the effects of electrical noise.
>
> John

True, but Omron makes differential encoders with up to 1024 ppr, for a 
$21 price on ebay. 

I have one with 1000 ppr on the rear of my GO704's spindle motor, turning 
faster by 3 or 4x than its rated for, currently driven by a piece of 
heat shrink tubing as the elastomer coupling has gone away two years 
ago.

The diff signals are made single ended to drive a 5i25's inputs by a pair 
of rs-485 to ttl boards at nominally $2 each on ebay. I had to program 
them for 1 way traffic though. So my spindle scale is a bit over 7,000 
in high gear, and a bit over 14,000 in low, and I can use PID_S.Pgains 
of 20 or more. 

To say my speed control is stiff is the understatement of the month, I 
only know the spindle load is high by the chirping iron in the motor at 
around 1.8x its nameplate 9.7 amps courtesy one of Jon's pwm-servo's set 
for around 17 amps. Up to that point, no change in the machines noise as 
a tap digs in.

I get my spindles index from a screw silly glued to the side of the 
drawbar retaining cap by way of an ATS-667 watching it go by.

>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: andrew beck [mailto:andrewbeck0...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: January-28-21 1:14 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?
> >
> > You can buy Chinese yaskawa copy ac servo drives 2.4kw for like
> > 260usd.  So it's just not worth it now.  I just sold my fanic drives
> > in the end.  Its so nice to just bolt on some matched servo drives
> > that just work out of the box.
> >
> > On Thu, 28 Jan 2021, 14:20 Jon Elson,  wrote:
> > > On 01/27/2021 11:35 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > > > How useable are Fanuc's servos and amps with Linuxcnc?  My
> > > > understanding
> > >
> > > is that it is very involved to try to force them to work with
> > > anything other than a Fanuc control
> > > I make converters for the two most common types of Fanuc
> > > encoders used on brushless motors.
> > > I also make a digital servo amp for them that can be used
> > > with my PWM controller.
> > > The older "red cap" motors had encoders with standard
> > > quadrature plus index output, but the commutation signal was
> > > proprietary.  I have a board that converts the commutation
> > > to industry-compatible "Hall" signals.
> > >
> > > The newer type is serial, but my converter produces
> > > industry-compatible quadrature plus index, plus the "Hall"
> > > signals. Note there are absolute and incremental versions of
> > > these encoders.
> > > The problem with the incremental versions, like (alpha)I64,
> > > is that they are lost when power is applied, so they need
> > > you to crank the motor past the index location by hand after
> > > every power on, before commutation is available.  So, these
> > > encoders need power-off brakes and battery backup if the
> > > control is ever turned off.
> > > The absolute version have additional low-res data tracks
> > > that allow the encoder to know the angle immediately at
> > > power-on, so no battery is needed to have commutation
> > > immediately on power on.
> > >
> > > Now, the Fanuc servo amps are more difficult, as about 1984
> > > they stopped releasing any documentation on their
> > > electronics.  So, it is essentially impossible to find any
> > > schematics or connection info for their amps.  Most of the
> > > brushless amps take SIX PWM signals per axis, so
> > > the controller sends separate PWM to EACH transistor.  This
> > > moves all the smarts to the controller, but it complicates
> > > things a bit.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
&

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Gene,
I understand that.  But I also know I bought the expensive and theoretically 
high quality US Digital encoders 10 years ago for my DC servos.  Ultimately 
they were way to sensitive to noise and in fact US Digital discontinued that 
line for that reason.  So I have two useless encoders.  I replaced them with 
CUI and they work better.

My point is what you see on EBAY and AliExpress are not all created equal.  The 
US Digital encoders appeared to work but eventually the UHU Servo drive 
reported a difference in counts and a move to home was off by a number of 
encoder edges.  Enough to count to a few thousands of an inch.

The UHU CPU replacement from Sweden (Henrik Olsson) was a dsPIC and had better 
encoder support.  Even then it still had problems with the US Digital.  Not 
with the CUI.

What I'm saying is that when you order an AC servo c/w drive you may find that 
because they had the lowest price it was low because they used the cheapest 
encoder.  Or maybe the cable they supplied was lower quality.  Whether the 
product is from China, Japan, USA or Germany for example, lower price doesn't 
equate to the same quality as higher price.  

The best example so far for me was the stepperonline.com 6A driver that had a 
3.6kHz whine on two different stepper motors.  Loud enough to be a pain in the 
ear and cost with PRIME shipping from Amazon was $80 Cdn.  A unit from Bergerda 
with the same specifications and close to the same look ended up with FedEx and 
Canadian taxes to be $82 each. (I bought 2 for the two motors I had here).  
No whine.  Ribs on the heatsink were twice as high.  A few extra features and a 
metal cover rather than plastic which might even help with electrical noise 
suppression.  And a different size connector for the control signals verses 
motor/power so no chance of accidentally plugging in the wrong one.

So though a lot of units look the same, unless you are buying a STMBL with full 
source code and schematics and have control over everything including the 
encoder on the motor the lowest cost unit isn't always the best.

I'd still rather buy a MESA board than some cheap clone from China for example. 
 Or if I needed something Jon Elson sold I'd buy from him rather than lowest 
cost from China.

John Dammeyer.

> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: January-28-21 12:31 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?
> 
> On Thursday 28 January 2021 12:09:00 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > Just be careful and ask the supplier what type of encoder is mounted
> > on the servo.  There are encoders and there are encoders. My
> > http://en.bergerda.com/ servos use a Japanese brand which they claim
> > are better than some of the Chinese ones out there but are also
> > considerably more expensive.   Differential output from the encoder is
> > a must have to reduce the effects of electrical noise.
> >
> > John
> 
> True, but Omron makes differential encoders with up to 1024 ppr, for a
> $21 price on ebay.
> 
> I have one with 1000 ppr on the rear of my GO704's spindle motor, turning
> faster by 3 or 4x than its rated for, currently driven by a piece of
> heat shrink tubing as the elastomer coupling has gone away two years
> ago.
> 
> The diff signals are made single ended to drive a 5i25's inputs by a pair
> of rs-485 to ttl boards at nominally $2 each on ebay. I had to program
> them for 1 way traffic though. So my spindle scale is a bit over 7,000
> in high gear, and a bit over 14,000 in low, and I can use PID_S.Pgains
> of 20 or more.
> 
> To say my speed control is stiff is the understatement of the month, I
> only know the spindle load is high by the chirping iron in the motor at
> around 1.8x its nameplate 9.7 amps courtesy one of Jon's pwm-servo's set
> for around 17 amps. Up to that point, no change in the machines noise as
> a tap digs in.
> 
> I get my spindles index from a screw silly glued to the side of the
> drawbar retaining cap by way of an ATS-667 watching it go by.
> 
> >
> > > -----Original Message-
> > > From: andrew beck [mailto:andrewbeck0...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: January-28-21 1:14 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?
> > >
> > > You can buy Chinese yaskawa copy ac servo drives 2.4kw for like
> > > 260usd.  So it's just not worth it now.  I just sold my fanic drives
> > > in the end.  Its so nice to just bolt on some matched servo drives
> > > that just work out of the box.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 28 Jan 2021, 14:20 Jon Elson,  wrote:
> > > > On 01/27/2021 11:35 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > > &g

Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 28 January 2021 16:05:05 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Gene,
> I understand that.  But I also know I bought the expensive and
> theoretically high quality US Digital encoders 10 years ago for my DC
> servos.  Ultimately they were way to sensitive to noise and in fact US
> Digital discontinued that line for that reason.  So I have two useless
> encoders.  I replaced them with CUI and they work better.
>
> My point is what you see on EBAY and AliExpress are not all created
> equal.  The US Digital encoders appeared to work but eventually the
> UHU Servo drive reported a difference in counts and a move to home was
> off by a number of encoder edges.  Enough to count to a few thousands
> of an inch.
>
> The UHU CPU replacement from Sweden (Henrik Olsson) was a dsPIC and
> had better encoder support.  Even then it still had problems with the
> US Digital.  Not with the CUI.
>
> What I'm saying is that when you order an AC servo c/w drive you may
> find that because they had the lowest price it was low because they
> used the cheapest encoder.  Or maybe the cable they supplied was lower
> quality.  Whether the product is from China, Japan, USA or Germany for
> example, lower price doesn't equate to the same quality as higher
> price.
>
> The best example so far for me was the stepperonline.com 6A driver
> that had a 3.6kHz whine on two different stepper motors.  Loud enough
> to be a pain in the ear and cost with PRIME shipping from Amazon was
> $80 Cdn.  A unit from Bergerda with the same specifications and close
> to the same look ended up with FedEx and Canadian taxes to be $82
> each. (I bought 2 for the two motors I had here). No whine.  Ribs on
> the heatsink were twice as high.  A few extra features and a metal
> cover rather than plastic which might even help with electrical noise
> suppression.  And a different size connector for the control signals
> verses motor/power so no chance of accidentally plugging in the wrong
> one.
>
> So though a lot of units look the same, unless you are buying a STMBL
> with full source code and schematics and have control over everything
> including the encoder on the motor the lowest cost unit isn't always
> the best.
>
> I'd still rather buy a MESA board than some cheap clone from China for
> example.  Or if I needed something Jon Elson sold I'd buy from him
> rather than lowest cost from China.

I hear that. Loud and clear although I can sometimes argue a bit. For 
starters both are right here and answers to any problems with their 
stuff are generally same day answers.  You, I, nor Mastercard, simply 
cannot put a price on that.

> John Dammeyer.
>
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Sent: January-28-21 12:31 PM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fanuc Servos?
> >
> > On Thursday 28 January 2021 12:09:00 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > Just be careful and ask the supplier what type of encoder is
> > > mounted on the servo.  There are encoders and there are encoders.
> > > My http://en.bergerda.com/ servos use a Japanese brand which they
> > > claim are better than some of the Chinese ones out there but are
> > > also considerably more expensive.   Differential output from the
> > > encoder is a must have to reduce the effects of electrical noise.
> > >
> > > John
> >
> > True, but Omron makes differential encoders with up to 1024 ppr, for
> > a $21 price on ebay.
> >
> > I have one with 1000 ppr on the rear of my GO704's spindle motor,
> > turning faster by 3 or 4x than its rated for, currently driven by a
> > piece of heat shrink tubing as the elastomer coupling has gone away
> > two years ago.
> >
> > The diff signals are made single ended to drive a 5i25's inputs by a
> > pair of rs-485 to ttl boards at nominally $2 each on ebay. I had to
> > program them for 1 way traffic though. So my spindle scale is a bit
> > over 7,000 in high gear, and a bit over 14,000 in low, and I can use
> > PID_S.Pgains of 20 or more.
> >
> > To say my speed control is stiff is the understatement of the month,
> > I only know the spindle load is high by the chirping iron in the
> > motor at around 1.8x its nameplate 9.7 amps courtesy one of Jon's
> > pwm-servo's set for around 17 amps. Up to that point, no change in
> > the machines noise as a tap digs in.
> >
> > I get my spindles index from a screw silly glued to the side of the
> > drawbar retaining cap by way of an ATS-667 watching it go by.
> >
> > > > -Original Message-
>