[Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Hi all, I have a Hardinge HNC that I am toying with the idea of retrofitting.I know there is a few on this list that have done so,I would like to know the amp/motor combos that are in use.I have one that I put a Centroid on a few years ago but I dont have the workload for another 10K kit for this one.I would just use it for a rush job so I dont have to tear down the other HNC. I would assume that the origional axis motors would be usable as they were working when I shut it off 5yrs ago.Maybe Jon Elsons amps would be a good choice? Thanks Terry -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Hello all, I have a Hardinge HNC which I am thinking about converting to EMC. It was working very well for the previous owner, so I am concerned about making sure that if I make the conversion, that it works just as well or better, in order to justify the conversion. Does anyone have any experience with EMC with the HNC that they would like to share? Should I consider using the existing resolvers as opposed to replacing with encoders? The PLC feature of EMC should be able to handle the turret, the two speed spindle, collet closer, bar feed, parting attachment, coolant, and lube system. I am planning to remove the variable pulley drive and use a VFD with the existing two speed clutch system instead. I believe the servo drives have +-10V analog input so Jon's PPMC would be appropriate? Apparently, the turret position feedback is a three bit binary value, so I will need a binary data input somewhere. Anything else I need to consider? Thanks. Kirk Wallace - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Thanks for the replies Jon and Ray. Like Ray said, I was wrong about the servo drivers, they have PWM inputs instead of the analog inputs, which is even better. So it looks like the Universal PWM controller would be a better fit, plus it has the DAC option for the spindle VFD. It would be nice to have another for the three phase coolant pump VFD too. I will need more digital outputs. Another printer port may do the trick here? Each axis and the spindle have a tachometer and a resolver. I am planning to replace the resolvers with encoders, but is there any reason to keep the tachometers? Removing both, plus the gearbox they are mounted to, would free up space for a proper encoder, it seems. Kirk Wallace - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
I'm using the original motors and original amps with good success. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2012, at 8:17 PM, Terry Christophersen wrote: > Hi all, > I have a Hardinge HNC that I am toying with the idea of retrofitting.I know > there is > a few on this list that have done so,I would like to know the amp/motor > combos that are > in use.I have one that I put a Centroid on a few years ago but I dont have > the workload > for another 10K kit for this one.I would just use it for a rush job so I dont > have to tear down the > other HNC. > > I would assume that the origional axis motors would be usable as they were > working when I > shut it off 5yrs ago.Maybe Jon Elsons amps would be a good choice? > > Thanks > > Terry > > -- > Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to > monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second > resolution app monitoring today. Free. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
On 17 April 2012 01:48, Ian McMahon wrote: > I'm using the original motors and original amps with good success. Indeed, there seems no reason to ditch the amps, you just need a good EMC-compatible analog output board. Either Pico PPMC and the Servo board: http://pico-systems.com/DAC16.html to hook up to the parport ($300 if I read the price list correctly) Or the Mesa 5i25 / 7i77 combo for a PCI solution. ($89 + $159) -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Terry Christophersen wrote: > Hi all, > I have a Hardinge HNC that I am toying with the idea of retrofitting.I know > there is > a few on this list that have done so,I would like to know the amp/motor > combos that are > in use.I have one that I put a Centroid on a few years ago but I dont have > the workload > for another 10K kit for this one.I would just use it for a rush job so I dont > have to tear down the > other HNC. > > I would assume that the origional axis motors would be usable as they were > working when I > shut it off 5yrs ago.Maybe Jon Elsons amps would be a good choice Yes, a couple people are using my amps on the original GE motors with good results. Also, my resolver converters can use the existing Harowe resolvers and save you a lot of hacking to put encoders in there. Jon -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 17:17 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote: > Hi all, > I have a Hardinge HNC that I am toying with the idea of retrofitting.I know > there is > a few on this list that have done so,I would like to know the amp/motor > combos that are > in use. ... snip In case you haven't seen my lathe yet: http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/ -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
That answers my question. That looks like a lot of files to get your turret to work. What is the board next to the DAC ? I was under the understanding that the PWM main board read the encoders Thanks Terry - Original Message - From: Kirk Wallace To: Terry Christophersen ; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Cc: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 17:17 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote: > Hi all, > I have a Hardinge HNC that I am toying with the idea of retrofitting.I know > there is > a few on this list that have done so,I would like to know the amp/motor > combos that are > in use. ... snip In case you haven't seen my lathe yet: http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/ -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
andy pugh wrote: > On 17 April 2012 01:48, Ian McMahon wrote: > >> I'm using the original motors and original amps with good success. >> > Indeed, there seems no reason to ditch the amps, you just need a good > EMC-compatible analog output board. > Umm, if these are GE HiAk amps, I can't recommend using those unless you know them well. I suggested a guy try to keep his and it was a big mess. He had many spare parts, but couldn't keep 3 of them running for more than a few days at a time. He eventually had to replace them all with Copley amps. > Either Pico PPMC and the Servo board: > http://pico-systems.com/DAC16.html to hook up to the parport ($300 if > I read the price list correctly) > No, you need the encoder counter, the DAC and the digital I/O board to make a useful analog servo interface. With motherboard, card cage and power supply, it comes to $780. Jon -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Terry Christophersen wrote: > That answers my question. > That looks like a lot of files to get your turret to work. > What is the board next to the DAC ? > I was under the understanding that the PWM main board read the encoders > He is using a hand-made board to convert differential encoder signals to single-ended right next to the universal PWM controller. You can also get $12 diff to single-ended converters from US Digital. Jon -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
I converted my CHNC a while back with a Mesa 5i20 + 7i33TA + 7i37TA cards. My CHNC uses encoders so that part was easy... as I understand the HNC has resolvers so you need an additional card for that. IIRC ssi on the IRC just finished converting a HNC as well as many others. I'm in the process of converting my BP Anilam CNC mill with a 5i25 + 7i77 card and a D525 motherboard which will eliminate 2 of the 3 giant electrical panels hanging off of the BP knee mill... John On 4/16/2012 7:17 PM, Terry Christophersen wrote: > Hi all, > I have a Hardinge HNC that I am toying with the idea of retrofitting.I know > there is > a few on this list that have done so,I would like to know the amp/motor > combos that are > in use.I have one that I put a Centroid on a few years ago but I dont have > the workload > for another 10K kit for this one.I would just use it for a rush job so I dont > have to tear down the > other HNC. > > I would assume that the origional axis motors would be usable as they were > working when I > shut it off 5yrs ago.Maybe Jon Elsons amps would be a good choice? > > Thanks > > Terry > > -- > Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to > monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second > resolution app monitoring today. Free. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Yes, I'm ssi on IRC, and the conversion was quite straightforward. I have $400 in Mesa gear, under $200 for two vfds, and miscellaneous wiring supplies. The stock resolvers work great with mesa's 7i49, there's no problems with the Hiak amps. The only issue I ran into was dirty tachs, and they cleaned up easy enough. Conversion took about 2 weeks of evenings. Ian Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2012, at 7:57 AM, John Thornton wrote: > I converted my CHNC a while back with a Mesa 5i20 + 7i33TA + 7i37TA > cards. My CHNC uses encoders so that part was easy... as I understand > the HNC has resolvers so you need an additional card for that. IIRC ssi > on the IRC just finished converting a HNC as well as many others. I'm in > the process of converting my BP Anilam CNC mill with a 5i25 + 7i77 card > and a D525 motherboard which will eliminate 2 of the 3 giant electrical > panels hanging off of the BP knee mill... > > John > > On 4/16/2012 7:17 PM, Terry Christophersen wrote: >> Hi all, >> I have a Hardinge HNC that I am toying with the idea of retrofitting.I know >> there is >> a few on this list that have done so,I would like to know the amp/motor >> combos that are >> in use.I have one that I put a Centroid on a few years ago but I dont have >> the workload >> for another 10K kit for this one.I would just use it for a rush job so I >> dont have to tear down the >> other HNC. >> >> I would assume that the origional axis motors would be usable as they were >> working when I >> shut it off 5yrs ago.Maybe Jon Elsons amps would be a good choice? >> >> Thanks >> >> Terry >> >> -- >> Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to >> monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second >> resolution app monitoring today. Free. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > -- > Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to > monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second > resolution app monitoring today. Free. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
On 17 April 2012 12:57, John Thornton wrote: > I converted my CHNC a while back with a Mesa 5i20 + 7i33TA + 7i37TA > cards. My CHNC uses encoders so that part was easy... as I understand > the HNC has resolvers so you need an additional card for that There is support for the Mesa 7i49 in the 2.5 release of LinuxCNC (if I am reading git.linuxcnc.org correctly) So, 5i23 + 7i49 + 7i37TA ought to work. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 20:59 -0700, Terry Christophersen wrote: > That answers my question. > That looks like a lot of files to get your turret to work. I only needed to write the turret.comp and I think the s32equal.comp. The rest were already available. These config files use the old HAL commands and need to be updated. I will probably put everything into one .hal file when I get around to it. I've learned a bit since converting my HNC, so I would do some things differently now. > What is the board next to the DAC ? > I was under the understanding that the PWM main board read the encoders Those are RS-422 differential receivers that convert the X, Z and spindle encoder +/- signals to single ended signals. There are RS-422 transmitters on the encoder side of the cables. http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/723 These were used to help prevent electrical noise becoming a problem. I'm not sure they really helped. After putting filters on the VFD's, I've had no noise issues. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second resolution app monitoring today. Free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Kirk Wallace wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a Hardinge HNC which I am thinking about converting to EMC. It > was working very well for the previous owner, so I am concerned about > making sure that if I make the conversion, that it works just as well or > better, in order to justify the conversion. Does anyone have any > experience with EMC with the HNC that they would like to share? Should I > consider using the existing resolvers as opposed to replacing with > encoders? You want to talk with Ray Henry, as he and Matt Shaver did one of these machines, but he changed the resolvers to encoders, and found it to be pretty easy. The resolvers are servo flange mount, so just get an encoder with the same mounting flange, and your are set. If the encoder doesn't have the same shaft size, then you will need to change the shaft coupling or adapt with a ring. The PLC feature of EMC should be able to handle the turret, > the two speed spindle, collet closer, bar feed, parting attachment, > coolant, and lube system. I am planning to remove the variable pulley > drive and use a VFD with the existing two speed clutch system instead. I > believe the servo drives have +-10V analog input so Jon's PPMC would be > appropriate? You could use the PPMC if your servo amps are in good shape. Ray and Matt used my PWM controller and my PWM servo amps, and thought it performed well. Apparently, the turret position feedback is a three bit > binary value, so I will need a binary data input somewhere. Anything > else I need to consider? If you can get the hal files from Ray or Matt, it will speed you on your way. I think Ray spent a lot of time getting the tool change to work right. Because of the number of I/Os needed to control the turret and the rest of the machine, he used an additional I/O card to the PWM controller. I think they are made in England, I can't remember the maker. Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Hi Kirk On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:46:35 -0500, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" said: >Kirk Wallace wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> I have a Hardinge HNC which I am thinking about converting to EMC. It >> was working very well for the previous owner, so I am concerned about >> making sure that if I make the conversion, that it works just as well or >> better, in order to justify the conversion. Does anyone have any >> experience with EMC with the HNC that they would like to share? Should I >> consider using the existing resolvers as opposed to replacing with >> encoders? >You want to talk with Ray Henry, as he and Matt Shaver did one >of these machines, but he changed the resolvers to encoders, and >found it to be pretty easy. The resolvers are servo flange >mount, so just get an encoder with the same mounting flange, and >your are set. If the encoder doesn't have the same shaft size, >then you will need to change the shaft coupling or adapt with a >ring. Matt has a design for a little spindle the shape and size of the old resolvers. We put inexpensive us digital encoders on the back of these. That meant that we didn't have to do much adapting. The feedback package on these machines and the CHNC are pretty tricky to handle. You can't adapt any other feedback to the motor on X because there is no room. > The PLC feature of EMC should be able to handle the turret, >> the two speed spindle, collet closer, bar feed, parting attachment, >> coolant, and lube system. I am planning to remove the variable pulley >> drive and use a VFD with the existing two speed clutch system instead. I >> believe the servo drives have +-10V analog input so Jon's PPMC would be >> appropriate? >You could use the PPMC if your servo amps are in good shape. >Ray and Matt used my PWM controller and my PWM servo amps, and >thought it performed well. I think that the PPMC is an awesome setup for this kind of retrofit. The drives and the interface/pwm generator cards are very professionally made. The motors are/were state of the art Electrocraft designed and are conservatevly rated about 600 watt and achieve full speed at 90 volts. I found that during accel they can be pushed quite a but harder than you'd expect for a sub hp motor. > Apparently, the turret position feedback is a three bit >> binary value, so I will need a binary data input somewhere. Anything >> else I need to consider? > >If you can get the hal files from Ray or Matt, it will speed you >on your way. I think Ray spent a lot of time getting the tool >change to work right. Because of the number of I/Os needed to >control the turret and the rest of the machine, he used an >additional I/O card to the PWM controller. I think they are >made in England, I can't remember the maker. I seem to remember donating a winford engineering card to the project but that was a while back. If so it was a 24 dio card. The idea was to include some stuff like collet close using hardware switches. This retrofit was pre emc2. I wrote the tool changer using tkio. It could easily be handled in HAL. One trick is the tuning on the air motor that spins the turret. You have to get the speed matched to a delay in EMC in order to get it to sit down properly at the end of a tool change. Hope this helps. Let us know your progress. Glad to help where I know anything useful. Rayh - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Kirk Wallace wrote: > Thanks for the replies Jon and Ray. Like Ray said, I was wrong about the > servo drivers, they have PWM inputs instead of the analog inputs, which > is even better. So it looks like the Universal PWM controller would be a > better fit, plus it has the DAC option for the spindle VFD. It would be > nice to have another for the three phase coolant pump VFD too. You want a variable-speed coolant pump? That's one I've never heard of, before! I will > need more digital outputs. Another printer port may do the trick here? Yes, you could do that. You can get about 11 outputs and 3 inputs, I think. > Each axis and the spindle have a tachometer and a resolver. I am > planning to replace the resolvers with encoders, but is there any reason > to keep the tachometers? Removing both, plus the gearbox they are > mounted to, would free up space for a proper encoder, it seems. OK, now you have a contradiction. If the motors have tachometers, that implies a velocity servo amplifier. That would have a +/- 10 V analog velocity command to program axis velocity. You say the servo drivers have a PWM input. Are you sure of this? Just because the servo amps use a PWM technique does not mean they accept a digital PWM signal. There is a remote possibility the tachs are used for machine safety only, but I would give that an extremely low probability! If you replace the velocity servo amps with torque-mode amps, then you can remove the tachometers. Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Kirk On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:46:42 -0700, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" said: >Thanks for the replies Jon and Ray. Like Ray said, I was wrong about the >servo drivers, they have PWM inputs instead of the analog inputs, which >is even better. So it looks like the Universal PWM controller would be a >better fit, plus it has the DAC option for the spindle VFD. It would be >nice to have another for the three phase coolant pump VFD too. We were setting up the machine for 240 volt and did that also using the littlist automation direct controller. >I will >need more digital outputs. Another printer port may do the trick here? Sure. The ability to make that all input using HAL makes parports more valuable in EMC2. >Each axis and the spindle have a tachometer and a resolver. I am >planning to replace the resolvers with encoders, but is there any reason >to keep the tachometers? Removing both, plus the gearbox they are >mounted to, would free up space for a proper encoder, it seems. Certainly a possibility if you keep just the inner part of the feedback package. A shaft encoder could be mounted directly to it. I decided against doing that because of the cost of a proper shaft coupling and used the existing coupling. The full gear setup is nice for the added resolution. The accuracy of the machine as setup from the factory was awesome. A good operator could easily hold a couple tenths. If you do use the existing, I'd leave the tach to balance the little gears on the large one. But then that's just me. Rayh - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 16:46 -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote: > It would be > nice to have another for the three phase coolant pump VFD too. That's what Ray & I did, although I had planned to control the VFD over its Modbus interface. Last year at the CNC Workshop I adapted some software I found on the Internet to control one of these drives that Ray brought to the show. I've never integrated it into the EMC though. It should probably be a HAL module, although I don't think speed commands really need to be handled in real time. Like Jon said, variable speed coolant! M7P11.5 maybe? I don't know... > I am > planning to replace the resolvers with encoders, but is there any reason > to keep the tachometers? Removing both, plus the gearbox they are > mounted to, would free up space for a proper encoder, it seems. That is actually what Ray & I ended up doing. I did have built, replicas of the resolvers. They had the identical "shaft end", but the body was shortened and the rear face was machined to accept US Digital kit encoders. Ultimately, these didn't get used because the body of the encoder stuck out too far (perpendicular to the axis of the fake encoder body) no matter which way they were rotated. So, the existing planetary gearbox was removed leaving only the aluminum ring that supported it which was drilled & tapped to fit the USD kit encoders. Small shaft extensions (I think 3/8" OD x ID to match the protruding ball screw end) were turned up upon which new 3/8" ID encoder disks rotate. We are tachless in Baltimore... Yes, I have blueprints of this stuff. Yes, I'll also try to post pictures too Matt - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Further investigation produced this document: http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/Servo_Schem.png , which seems to indicate that, these are indeed analog input servo amps. On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 21:30 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: > Kirk Wallace wrote: > > Thanks for the replies Jon and Ray. Like Ray said, I was wrong about the > > servo drivers, they have PWM inputs instead of the analog inputs, which > > is even better. So it looks like the Universal PWM controller would be a > > better fit, plus it has the DAC option for the spindle VFD. It would be > > nice to have another for the three phase coolant pump VFD too. > You want a variable-speed coolant pump? That's one I've never > heard of, before! I brain faded there for a while. I believe I was thinking about a VFD as a three phase converter, but in this case, I would only need a digital output. > I will > > need more digital outputs. Another printer port may do the trick here? > Yes, you could do that. You can get about 11 outputs and 3 > inputs, I think. > > Each axis and the spindle have a tachometer and a resolver. I am > > planning to replace the resolvers with encoders, but is there any reason > > to keep the tachometers? Removing both, plus the gearbox they are > > mounted to, would free up space for a proper encoder, it seems. > OK, now you have a contradiction. If the motors have > tachometers, that implies a velocity servo amplifier. That > would have a +/- 10 V analog velocity command to program axis > velocity. You say the servo drivers have a PWM input. Are you > sure of this? Just because the servo amps use a PWM technique > does not mean they accept a digital PWM signal. There is a > remote possibility the tachs are used for machine safety only, > but I would give that an extremely low probability! The tachometers are connected to the servo drive, so they will be needed, if I decide to use these drives. Performance-wise, does anyone have an opinion on whether to stick with the existing velocity amps (which overall will cost more) or go with new torque-mode PWM amps? > If you replace the velocity servo amps with torque-mode amps, > then you can remove the tachometers. > > Jon ... - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
- Original Message - From: "Kirk Wallace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC > The tachometers are connected to the servo drive, so they will be > needed, if I decide to use these drives. Performance-wise, does anyone > have an opinion on whether to stick with the existing velocity amps > (which overall will cost more) or go with new torque-mode PWM amps? > I have a mill and a lathe that both use velocity mode amps with tach feedback. I had amps go bad on the mill, new Glentek amps were ~$900, I used AMC amps that I got for $335 brand new. They perform great and now my Mill doesn't have the audible PWM noise anymore. My mill has tachometers feed back to the drives and the linear encoders feed back to the control. This positions from the scales, getting rid of any positioning errors due to lead screw error or backlash. I like my setup but I'd prefer a brushless motor with an encoder or resolver feedback to the amp, and still use the linear encoder feedback to the control. Roger Neal - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Kirk Wallace wrote: > Further investigation produced this document: > > http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/Servo_Schem.png > > , which seems to indicate that, these are indeed analog input servo > amps. If this document corresponds to your machine, I would be leery of using 35 year-old servo amps from a GE 550 control. A moderately old Servo Dynamics or Westamp transistor PWM amp can still perform pretty well. These SCR amps are bound to be limited to about 10 Hz bandwidth, and I'd REALLY hate to tune them with a modern control with a 1 KHz servo loop. Ray and Matt used my PWM servo amps on it, and said it worked well. If you want to use those velocity servo amps, or if they are better than the original units that came with the GE 550, then you would want to use my PPMC board set with the analog outputs they need. Good velocity servo amps can give very smooth and accurate motion. Without them, I would suggest you want to have higher resolution on the encoders. Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:29:40 -0700, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" said: > >>Further investigation produced this document: > >http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/Servo_Schem.png >if I decide to use these drives. Performance-wise, does anyone >have an opinion on whether to stick with the existing velocity amps >(which overall will cost more) or go with new torque-mode PWM amps? Performance-wise these are some pretty hot amps. You've got to watch for shorting of the motor as the brushes over time create an arc path to the frame. That arcing will burn the curent sense resistors, the large ones along the edge of the card, and short out the transistors. Most of the time this happens fast enough that the board traces are fine. Because of their age you will have to tune them often. I was tuning these every 6 months and that was years ago. The alternative is to replace all the caps. I've got a pile of these and several motors in the shop if you need spares. Rayh - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 04:47 -0400, Matthew Glenn Shaver wrote: > Yes, I'll also try to post > pictures too and here are some pictures of the encoders as mounted: http://www.mattshaver.com/hnc/ Matt - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Thank you for the pictures Matt. I will most likely do the same sort of design. Today, I disassembled the encoder areas to start finalizing my parts list. I am a little worried about how the encoders will hold up. I found a fair amount of oil around the area close to the turret pneumatics. My guess is, this may be normal because the pneumatics exhaust inside the housing, and the air may be oiled by the lube system? Farther up the cross slide, the oil seems to have destroyed the potting covering the turret position sensor. I tried to find information on the chips used on the board, but I could not find anything. If I can't get it to work, I suppose it would not be too difficult to redesign one. Did you use up three digital inputs for this? From what I hear, the tool change system relies on timing based on the assumed rpm of the air motor. I wonder if it would be worth it to install a course absolute position encoder, and base the release, turn and lock sequence on position instead? I noticed you got rid of the AMP pin terminals. It took me a while to figure out what was going on there. I am thinking, I might try to fit small euro-style terminals instead. Is the chip on the cross slide circuit board a differential encoder driver? I could not remove the shaft couplers. I think the set screws where glued in, so I had to cut the bellows. I still need to figure out how to get the collars off. On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 01:10 -0400, Matthew Glenn Shaver wrote: > On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 04:47 -0400, Matthew Glenn Shaver wrote: > > Yes, I'll also try to post > > pictures too > > and here are some pictures of the encoders as mounted: > > http://www.mattshaver.com/hnc/ > > Matt > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
Hi Kirk On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:55:40 -0700, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" said: >I am a little worried about how the encoders will hold up. I found a >fair amount of oil around the area close to the turret pneumatics. My >guess is, this may be normal because the pneumatics exhaust inside the >housing, and the air may be oiled by the lube system? Farther up the >cross slide, the oil seems to have destroyed the potting covering the >turret position sensor. I tried to find information on the chips used on >the board, but I could not find anything. If I can't get it to work, I >suppose it would not be too difficult to redesign one. I built a few similar devices for some HES lathes. I used Hall effect sensors. There is a magnet on the rotating part there. >Did you use up >three digital inputs for this? From what I hear, the tool change system >relies on timing based on the assumed rpm of the air motor. I wonder if >it would be worth it to install a course absolute position encoder, and >base the release, turn and lock sequence on position instead? That would seem to me to be overkill since there are only eight places you need to know. I've probably got pickup blocks out there but they were for the CHNC rather than the HNC. I seem to remember that there was some difference between them. >I noticed you got rid of the AMP pin terminals. It took me a while to >figure out what was going on there. I am thinking, I might try to fit >small euro-style terminals instead. I've threaded the standard US Digital cables into these and they have the plug built into the end. The AMP is nearly impossible to use without the proprietary tooling. >Is the chip on the cross slide circuit board a differential encoder >driver? > >I could not remove the shaft couplers. I think the set screws where >glued in, so I had to cut the bellows. I still need to figure out how to >get the collars off. Those little connectors were nearly $80 each in the day. I found that the long end of a good quality allen would torque over about 30 degrees before the screw let loose. They were not factory glued. Rayh - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Hardinge HNC
On Friday 22 June 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Hi Kirk > >On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:55:40 -0700, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" said: >>I am a little worried about how the encoders will hold up. I found a >>fair amount of oil around the area close to the turret pneumatics. My >>guess is, this may be normal because the pneumatics exhaust inside the >>housing, and the air may be oiled by the lube system? Farther up the >>cross slide, the oil seems to have destroyed the potting covering the >>turret position sensor. I tried to find information on the chips used on >>the board, but I could not find anything. If I can't get it to work, I >>suppose it would not be too difficult to redesign one. > >I built a few similar devices for some HES lathes. I used Hall effect > sensors. There is a magnet on the rotating part there. Be aware Ray, that hall effect devices, while pretty darned handy, are also poisoned by any petroleum based lubricant known to man. Even something so benign as a squirt of wd-40, and they start falling over in less than a week. I did that once to a nice keyboard that was getting sticky with age. Keys started going dead, so I called microswitch who made the key assemblies, gave them the history & their response was to run, don't walk, to the dishwasher in the company kitchen, put it in the top rack, add at least the usual amount of dishwasher soap and cycle it twice. That did stop the death throes but I still had to replace about $140 worth of those switches at $12 a pop. >>Did you use up >>three digital inputs for this? From what I hear, the tool change system >>relies on timing based on the assumed rpm of the air motor. I wonder if >>it would be worth it to install a course absolute position encoder, and >>base the release, turn and lock sequence on position instead? > >That would seem to me to be overkill since there are only eight places you > need to know. I've probably got pickup blocks out there but they were for > the CHNC rather than the HNC. I seem to remember that there was some > difference between them. > >>I noticed you got rid of the AMP pin terminals. It took me a while to >>figure out what was going on there. I am thinking, I might try to fit >>small euro-style terminals instead. > >I've threaded the standard US Digital cables into these and they have the > plug built into the end. The AMP is nearly impossible to use without the > proprietary tooling. > >>Is the chip on the cross slide circuit board a differential encoder >>driver? >> >>I could not remove the shaft couplers. I think the set screws where >>glued in, so I had to cut the bellows. I still need to figure out how to >>get the collars off. > >Those little connectors were nearly $80 each in the day. I found that the > long end of a good quality allen would torque over about 30 degrees before > the screw let loose. They were not factory glued. > >Rayh > > > >- >This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >___ >Emc-users mailing list >Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Extreme feminine beauty is always disturbing. -- Spock, "The Cloud Minders", stardate 5818.4 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
