[Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
I was cruising CNCZone and saw a thread on SuperPID ( see superpid.com ). It is a speed controller to control router speeds that is new on the market and can be manually controlled or electronically controlled. They seem to support MACH3, but not apparently EMC2 (or at least not documented well). Does anyone here know about it? Any suggestions? Or options (other products)? Just curious... Jack -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
I'm also quite curious...a SuperPID (or something like it) is on my build/buy list. -Pete On Jun 10, 2011, at 3:53 PM, Jack Coats wrote: > I was cruising CNCZone and saw a thread on SuperPID ( see superpid.com ). > It is a speed controller to control router speeds that is new on the > market and can be manually controlled > or electronically controlled. They seem to support MACH3, but not > apparently EMC2 (or at least not > documented well). > > Does anyone here know about it? Any suggestions? Or options (other > products)? > > Just curious... Jack > > -- > EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content > authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image > Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 10 June 2011 23:53, Jack Coats wrote: > They seem to support MACH3, but not apparently EMC2 (or at least not > documented well). It has a PWM input, so EMC2 control would be trivial. However, it is rather expensive, and duplicates on-board a number of things that EMC2 would do for free. I have closed-loop PID control on my milling machine using built-in EMC2 functions and a PWM output from EMC2 to the motor drive. You should be able to use something like http://grizzly.amazonwebstore.com/Grizzly-G3555-Router-Speed-Control-20/M/BDD1R4.htm?traffic_src=GB&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=GB&id=uk (Mainly as a cheap source of pre-assembled parts) with EMC2 PWM and a very simple interface circuit taking the place of the potentiometer. -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
Whoopee! I found the info on the EMC2 site. Yes, it should be pretty easily controllable. I downloaded the manual for version 2 of the SuperPID that tells how to do it with Mach3. The doc's at EMC2 are: http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=20&func=view&id=3858&catid=38 So think this $155 superpid2 is no my list of toys to get. Box, extra cables, etc add a bit, but it doesn't look like they are trying to stick you with the currently posted prices. ... Just my opinion. ><> ... Jack On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Peter Loron wrote: > I'm also quite curious...a SuperPID (or something like it) is on my build/buy > list. > > -Pete > > On Jun 10, 2011, at 3:53 PM, Jack Coats wrote: > >> I was cruising CNCZone and saw a thread on SuperPID ( see superpid.com ). >> It is a speed controller to control router speeds that is new on the >> market and can be manually controlled >> or electronically controlled. They seem to support MACH3, but not >> apparently EMC2 (or at least not >> documented well). >> >> Does anyone here know about it? Any suggestions? Or options (other >> products)? >> >> Just curious... Jack >> >> -- >> EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content >> authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image >> Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > -- > EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content > authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image > Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
Jack Coats wrote: > I was cruising CNCZone and saw a thread on SuperPID ( see superpid.com ). > It is a speed controller to control router speeds that is new on the > market and can be manually controlled > or electronically controlled. They seem to support MACH3, but not > apparently EMC2 (or at least not > documented well). > Looks like it takes a PWM (or PDM too) logic signal to control speed, so there should be no problem using it with a PWM output from EMC2. If you have an available analog output, it would also accept that. Jon -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On Fri, 2011-06-10 at 17:53 -0500, Jack Coats wrote: > I was cruising CNCZone and saw a thread on SuperPID ( see superpid.com ). > It is a speed controller to control router speeds that is new on the > market and can be manually controlled > or electronically controlled. They seem to support MACH3, but not > apparently EMC2 (or at least not > documented well). > > Does anyone here know about it? Any suggestions? Or options (other > products)? > > Just curious... Jack After a _very_ brief look at the website, it looks like an SCR speed controller with a micro-controller built on to the board. I tend to think EMC2's HAL PID and PWM connected to a KBIC style speed controller (universal motor speed driver http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbic_manual.pdf http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/kbic/ ) would do the same thing, plus integrate better with HAL, have more configuration options, be open source, etcetera. If the firmware where open it might be interesting to play with other options for a non-EMC2 smart SCR driver application. Maybe add a keyboard and have a stand alone smart universal motor controller? -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
The SuperPID is optimized for the style of universal motors that are typically used for consumer/home shop high speed wood router spindles. The KBIC controllers are typically designed for shunt or permanent magnet motors though they may work OK with a universal type motor. When interfacing to a KBIC style controller, be aware that the terminals that normally go to a potentiometer are NOT isolated from the line voltage. An option board or a homebrew opto-isolator will be needed. Also, I think the SuperPID kit includes an optical spindle speed sensor, something you would need to rig up if you used EMC as the PID controller. I am not fond of the idea of adding a PID controller to a modern wood router with a universal motor. Many of them have internal electronics for soft start, line fail restart inhibitors, and internal variable speed controls. These circuits will not be happy with SCR drives feeding them. Steve Stallings -Original Message- From: Kirk Wallace [mailto:kwall...@wallacecompany.com] Sent: Friday, June 10, 2011 8:53 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC? On Fri, 2011-06-10 at 17:53 -0500, Jack Coats wrote: > I was cruising CNCZone and saw a thread on SuperPID ( see superpid.com ). > It is a speed controller to control router speeds that is new on the > market and can be manually controlled > or electronically controlled. They seem to support MACH3, but not > apparently EMC2 (or at least not > documented well). > > Does anyone here know about it? Any suggestions? Or options (other products)? > > Just curious... Jack After a _very_ brief look at the website, it looks like an SCR speed controller with a micro-controller built on to the board. I tend to think EMC2's HAL PID and PWM connected to a KBIC style speed controller (universal motor speed driver http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbic_manual.pdf http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/kbic/ ) would do the same thing, plus integrate better with HAL, have more configuration options, be open source, etcetera. If the firmware where open it might be interesting to play with other options for a non-EMC2 smart SCR driver application. Maybe add a keyboard and have a stand alone smart universal motor controller? -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On Friday, June 10, 2011 11:08:44 PM Kirk Wallace did opine: > On Fri, 2011-06-10 at 17:53 -0500, Jack Coats wrote: > > I was cruising CNCZone and saw a thread on SuperPID ( see superpid.com > > ). It is a speed controller to control router speeds that is new on > > the market and can be manually controlled > > or electronically controlled. They seem to support MACH3, but not > > apparently EMC2 (or at least not > > documented well). > > > > Does anyone here know about it? Any suggestions? Or options (other > > products)? > > > > Just curious... Jack > > After a _very_ brief look at the website, it looks like an SCR speed > controller with a micro-controller built on to the board. I tend to > think EMC2's HAL PID and PWM connected to a KBIC style speed controller > (universal motor speed driver > http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbic_manual.pdf > http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/kbic/ > ) would do the same thing, plus integrate better with HAL, have more > configuration options, be open source, etcetera. If the firmware where > open it might be interesting to play with other options for a non-EMC2 > smart SCR driver application. Maybe add a keyboard and have a stand > alone smart universal motor controller? Having a PMDX-106 interfaced to the OEM speed controller that came in my micromill which resembles the kbic, and comparing the smoothness of the speed control vs the typical speed in the trigger of an electric drill, there is no basis for comparison. The SCR controllers, being 60 or 120 hz based cannot begin to approach the smoothness and low speed torque, combined with a very stiff speed vs torque, that I routinely get from my lashup. I can turn my spindle 30 rpm with enough reserve that if it hangs, it will clear the motor fuse before I can get a hand on the e-stop. That is a hexfet design running at 20+ kilohertz. Cheers, gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) I KAISER ROLL?! What good is a Kaiser Roll without a little COLE SLAW on the SIDE? -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 11 June 2011 05:14, Steve Stallings wrote: > The SuperPID is optimized for the style of > universal motors that are typically used for > consumer/home shop high speed wood router > spindles. The KBIC controllers are typically > designed for shunt or permanent magnet motors > though they may work OK with a universal type > motor. I think that the universal motors wold probably work better on a chopped DC than they do on AC. They are shunt-wound (or so I understand) and that is what makes them "universal" as the field reverses when the armature does on the negative half-cycle, so the commutation still works. I agree that it would probably be best to take the internal electronics out of the equation. -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 06/10/2011 04:21 PM, andy pugh wrote: > On 10 June 2011 23:53, Jack Coats wrote: >> They seem to support MACH3, but not apparently EMC2 (or at least not >> documented well). > It has a PWM input, so EMC2 control would be trivial. > > However, it is rather expensive, and duplicates on-board a number of > things that EMC2 would do for free. I have closed-loop PID control on > my milling machine using built-in EMC2 functions and a PWM output from > EMC2 to the motor drive. > > You should be able to use something like > http://grizzly.amazonwebstore.com/Grizzly-G3555-Router-Speed-Control-20/M/BDD1R4.htm?traffic_src=GB&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=GB&id=uk > (Mainly as a cheap source of pre-assembled parts) with EMC2 PWM and a > very simple interface circuit taking the place of the potentiometer. > I noted a very similar looking controller at Harbor Frieght for $19. Has anybody hacked on one of these to drive the pot from EMC? Once I finish getting my mill basically operational, a router speed controller is next on my list. For now, of course, I could just rig up some sort of tach and twiddle the pot by hand to the the desired speed, but... -Pete -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 22 June 2011 01:22, Peter Loron wrote: > I noted a very similar looking controller at Harbor Frieght for $19. Has > anybody hacked on one of these to drive the pot from EMC? No, but I am pretty sure I know how, with push-pull optos. -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 6/21/2011 8:22 PM, Peter Loron wrote: > On 06/10/2011 04:21 PM, andy pugh wrote: >> On 10 June 2011 23:53, Jack Coats wrote: >>>They seem to support MACH3, but not apparently EMC2 (or at least not >>> documented well). >> It has a PWM input, so EMC2 control would be trivial. >> >> However, it is rather expensive, and duplicates on-board a number of >> things that EMC2 would do for free. I have closed-loop PID control on >> my milling machine using built-in EMC2 functions and a PWM output from >> EMC2 to the motor drive. >> >> You should be able to use something like >> http://grizzly.amazonwebstore.com/Grizzly-G3555-Router-Speed-Control-20/M/BDD1R4.htm?traffic_src=GB&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=GB&id=uk >> (Mainly as a cheap source of pre-assembled parts) with EMC2 PWM and a >> very simple interface circuit taking the place of the potentiometer. >> > I noted a very similar looking controller at Harbor Frieght for $19. Has > anybody hacked on one of these to drive the pot from EMC? > > Once I finish getting my mill basically operational, a router speed > controller is next on my list. For now, of course, I could just rig up > some sort of tach and twiddle the pot by hand to the the desired speed, > but... > > -Pete Pete: I've purchased several similar controllers from different sources for use with routers and the like. Some of the controllers worked very well; some weren't worth the cardboard box they came in. Honestly, I couldn't predict from their external form, fit, and finish which would be acceptable. Certainly, their retail prices didn't correlate with their performance. I guess it depends on which offshore contract-factory makes it. I've not had one from HF. At the price it is probably worth trying it but based on my experience I'd strongly urge you to test it before bothering to hack it. Good hunting. Regards, Kent -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
I have an Hitachi M12VC http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=HITACHI+ROUTER&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4659105001687453144&sa=X&ei=_loBTsq9EIXl0QG9q5XQDg&ved=0CDwQ8gIwAA router I'm very pleased with. It's very quiet, light, and inexpensive and best of all has a closed loop speed control that maintains torque all through its range. I have thought about replacing the potentiometer with an interface to EMC2 and would love to hear any ideas to accomplish this. My first thought was to use an Arduino board to accept a PWM signal and control a digital pot. Any better (simpler) ideas? From: Kent A. Reed To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 8:01:11 PM Subject: Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC? On 6/21/2011 8:22 PM, Peter Loron wrote: > On 06/10/2011 04:21 PM, andy pugh wrote: >> On 10 June 2011 23:53, Jack Coats wrote: >>>They seem to support MACH3, but not apparently EMC2 (or at least not >>> documented well). >> It has a PWM input, so EMC2 control would be trivial. >> >> However, it is rather expensive, and duplicates on-board a number of >> things that EMC2 would do for free. I have closed-loop PID control on >> my milling machine using built-in EMC2 functions and a PWM output from >> EMC2 to the motor drive. >> >> You should be able to use something like >>http://grizzly.amazonwebstore.com/Grizzly-G3555-Router-Speed-Control-20/M/BDD1R4.htm?traffic_src=GB&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=GB&id=uk >>k >> (Mainly as a cheap source of pre-assembled parts) with EMC2 PWM and a >> very simple interface circuit taking the place of the potentiometer. >> > I noted a very similar looking controller at Harbor Frieght for $19. Has > anybody hacked on one of these to drive the pot from EMC? > > Once I finish getting my mill basically operational, a router speed > controller is next on my list. For now, of course, I could just rig up > some sort of tach and twiddle the pot by hand to the the desired speed, > but... > > -Pete Pete: I've purchased several similar controllers from different sources for use with routers and the like. Some of the controllers worked very well; some weren't worth the cardboard box they came in. Honestly, I couldn't predict from their external form, fit, and finish which would be acceptable. Certainly, their retail prices didn't correlate with their performance. I guess it depends on which offshore contract-factory makes it. I've not had one from HF. At the price it is probably worth trying it but based on my experience I'd strongly urge you to test it before bothering to hack it. Good hunting. Regards, Kent -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
I've been looking at those routers. Glad to hear they're a good piece of kit. I know nothing about how the internal speed control works on the router, but assuming you could simply feed a variable voltage or resistance in there, then what you suggest would work fine. You could do it cheaper if you roll everything yourself, but and Arduino makes it simple. -Pete On Jun 21, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Edward Bernard wrote: > I have an Hitachi M12VC > http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=HITACHI+ROUTER&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4659105001687453144&sa=X&ei=_loBTsq9EIXl0QG9q5XQDg&ved=0CDwQ8gIwAA > router I'm very pleased with. It's very quiet, light, and inexpensive and > best > of all has a closed loop speed control that maintains torque all through its > range. I have thought about replacing the potentiometer with an interface to > EMC2 and would love to hear any ideas to accomplish this. My first thought > was > to use an Arduino board to accept a PWM signal and control a digital pot. > Any > better (simpler) ideas? > > > > > > > > From: Kent A. Reed > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 8:01:11 PM > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC? > > On 6/21/2011 8:22 PM, Peter Loron wrote: >> On 06/10/2011 04:21 PM, andy pugh wrote: >>> On 10 June 2011 23:53, Jack Coats wrote: >>>> They seem to support MACH3, but not apparently EMC2 (or at least not >>>> documented well). >>> It has a PWM input, so EMC2 control would be trivial. >>> >>> However, it is rather expensive, and duplicates on-board a number of >>> things that EMC2 would do for free. I have closed-loop PID control on >>> my milling machine using built-in EMC2 functions and a PWM output from >>> EMC2 to the motor drive. >>> >>> You should be able to use something like >>> http://grizzly.amazonwebstore.com/Grizzly-G3555-Router-Speed-Control-20/M/BDD1R4.htm?traffic_src=GB&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=GB&id=uk >>> k >>> (Mainly as a cheap source of pre-assembled parts) with EMC2 PWM and a >>> very simple interface circuit taking the place of the potentiometer. >>> >> I noted a very similar looking controller at Harbor Frieght for $19. Has >> anybody hacked on one of these to drive the pot from EMC? >> >> Once I finish getting my mill basically operational, a router speed >> controller is next on my list. For now, of course, I could just rig up >> some sort of tach and twiddle the pot by hand to the the desired speed, >> but... >> >> -Pete > Pete: > > I've purchased several similar controllers from different sources for > use with routers and the like. Some of the controllers worked very well; > some weren't worth the cardboard box they came in. Honestly, I couldn't > predict from their external form, fit, and finish which would be > acceptable. Certainly, their retail prices didn't correlate with their > performance. I guess it depends on which offshore contract-factory makes it. > > I've not had one from HF. At the price it is probably worth trying it > but based on my experience I'd strongly urge you to test it before > bothering to hack it. > > Good hunting. > > Regards, > Kent > > > > > -- > Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. > Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, > secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? > Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- > Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. > Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, > secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? > Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
One bit of caution. The speed controls I've seen built into power tools are not isolated from the line voltage. So expect to have to isolate (optical or otherwise) any control signal between its source and the speed controller in the tool. Karl Peter Loron wrote: > I've been looking at those routers. Glad to hear they're a good piece of kit. > > I know nothing about how the internal speed control works on the router, but > assuming you could simply feed a variable voltage or resistance in there, > then what you suggest would work fine. You could do it cheaper if you roll > everything yourself, but and Arduino makes it simple. > > -Pete > > On Jun 21, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Edward Bernard wrote: > >> I have an Hitachi M12VC >> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=HITACHI+ROUTER&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4659105001687453144&sa=X&ei=_loBTsq9EIXl0QG9q5XQDg&ved=0CDwQ8gIwAA >> router I'm very pleased with. It's very quiet, light, and inexpensive and >> best >> of all has a closed loop speed control that maintains torque all through >> its >> range. I have thought about replacing the potentiometer with an interface >> to >> EMC2 and would love to hear any ideas to accomplish this. My first thought >> was >> to use an Arduino board to accept a PWM signal and control a digital pot. >> Any >> better (simpler) ideas? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Kent A. Reed >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) >> Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 8:01:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC? >> >> On 6/21/2011 8:22 PM, Peter Loron wrote: >>> On 06/10/2011 04:21 PM, andy pugh wrote: >>>> On 10 June 2011 23:53, Jack Coats wrote: >>>>> They seem to support MACH3, but not apparently EMC2 (or at least not >>>>> documented well). >>>> It has a PWM input, so EMC2 control would be trivial. >>>> >>>> However, it is rather expensive, and duplicates on-board a number of >>>> things that EMC2 would do for free. I have closed-loop PID control on >>>> my milling machine using built-in EMC2 functions and a PWM output from >>>> EMC2 to the motor drive. >>>> >>>> You should be able to use something like >>>> http://grizzly.amazonwebstore.com/Grizzly-G3555-Router-Speed-Control-20/M/BDD1R4.htm?traffic_src=GB&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=GB&id=uk >>>> k >>>> (Mainly as a cheap source of pre-assembled parts) with EMC2 PWM and a >>>> very simple interface circuit taking the place of the potentiometer. >>>> >>> I noted a very similar looking controller at Harbor Frieght for $19. Has >>> anybody hacked on one of these to drive the pot from EMC? >>> >>> Once I finish getting my mill basically operational, a router speed >>> controller is next on my list. For now, of course, I could just rig up >>> some sort of tach and twiddle the pot by hand to the the desired speed, >>> but... >>> >>> -Pete >> Pete: >> >> I've purchased several similar controllers from different sources for >> use with routers and the like. Some of the controllers worked very well; >> some weren't worth the cardboard box they came in. Honestly, I couldn't >> predict from their external form, fit, and finish which would be >> acceptable. Certainly, their retail prices didn't correlate with their >> performance. I guess it depends on which offshore contract-factory makes it. >> >> I've not had one from HF. At the price it is probably worth trying it >> but based on my experience I'd strongly urge you to test it before >> bothering to hack it. >> >> Good hunting. >> >> Regards, >> Kent >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. >> Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, >> secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? >> Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> --
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
Good thought, Karl. From: Karl Cunningham To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 10:53:20 PM Subject: Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC? One bit of caution. The speed controls I've seen built into power tools are not isolated from the line voltage. So expect to have to isolate (optical or otherwise) any control signal between its source and the speed controller in the tool. Karl Peter Loron wrote: > I've been looking at those routers. Glad to hear they're a good piece of kit. > > I know nothing about how the internal speed control works on the router, but >assuming you could simply feed a variable voltage or resistance in there, then >what you suggest would work fine. You could do it cheaper if you roll >everything >yourself, but and Arduino makes it simple. > > -Pete > > On Jun 21, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Edward Bernard wrote: > >> I have an Hitachi M12VC >>http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=HITACHI+ROUTER&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4659105001687453144&sa=X&ei=_loBTsq9EIXl0QG9q5XQDg&ved=0CDwQ8gIwAA >>A >> router I'm very pleased with. It's very quiet, light, and inexpensive and >> best >> >> of all has a closed loop speed control that maintains torque all through >> its >> range. I have thought about replacing the potentiometer with an interface >> to >> EMC2 and would love to hear any ideas to accomplish this. My first thought >> was >> >> to use an Arduino board to accept a PWM signal and control a digital pot. >> Any > >> better (simpler) ideas? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Kent A. Reed >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) >> Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 8:01:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC? >> >> On 6/21/2011 8:22 PM, Peter Loron wrote: >>> On 06/10/2011 04:21 PM, andy pugh wrote: >>>> On 10 June 2011 23:53, Jack Coats wrote: >>>>> They seem to support MACH3, but not apparently EMC2 (or at least not >>>>> documented well). >>>> It has a PWM input, so EMC2 control would be trivial. >>>> >>>> However, it is rather expensive, and duplicates on-board a number of >>>> things that EMC2 would do for free. I have closed-loop PID control on >>>> my milling machine using built-in EMC2 functions and a PWM output from >>>> EMC2 to the motor drive. >>>> >>>> You should be able to use something like >>>>http://grizzly.amazonwebstore.com/Grizzly-G3555-Router-Speed-Control-20/M/BDD1R4.htm?traffic_src=GB&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=GB&id=uk >>>>k >>>> k >>>> (Mainly as a cheap source of pre-assembled parts) with EMC2 PWM and a >>>> very simple interface circuit taking the place of the potentiometer. >>>> >>> I noted a very similar looking controller at Harbor Frieght for $19. Has >>> anybody hacked on one of these to drive the pot from EMC? >>> >>> Once I finish getting my mill basically operational, a router speed >>> controller is next on my list. For now, of course, I could just rig up >>> some sort of tach and twiddle the pot by hand to the the desired speed, >>> but... >>> >>> -Pete >> Pete: >> >> I've purchased several similar controllers from different sources for >> use with routers and the like. Some of the controllers worked very well; >> some weren't worth the cardboard box they came in. Honestly, I couldn't >> predict from their external form, fit, and finish which would be >> acceptable. Certainly, their retail prices didn't correlate with their >> performance. I guess it depends on which offshore contract-factory makes it. >> >> I've not had one from HF. At the price it is probably worth trying it >> but based on my experience I'd strongly urge you to test it before >> bothering to hack it. >> >> Good hunting. >> >> Regards, >> Kent >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. >> Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, >> secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? >> Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download to
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On Wednesday, June 22, 2011 12:15:27 AM Edward Bernard did opine: > I have an Hitachi M12VC > http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=HITACHI+ROUTER&oe=utf-8&rls=org > .mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4659 > 105001687453144&sa=X&ei=_loBTsq9EIXl0QG9q5XQDg&ved=0CDwQ8gIwAA router > I'm very pleased with. It's very quiet, light, and inexpensive and > best of all has a closed loop speed control that maintains torque all > through its range. I have thought about replacing the potentiometer > with an interface to EMC2 and would love to hear any ideas to > accomplish this. My first thought was to use an Arduino board to > accept a PWM signal and control a digital pot. Any better (simpler) > ideas? > I have one of those, a truly outstanding piece of gear. As for a controller interface, I am using a PMDX-106, not on the M12VC, but the hookup to the pot should be very similar to the hookup to the OEM speed controller in my expanded micromill. That works very well from creeping along at 30 rpm from a 1% duty cycle of EMC's PWM generator on up to 2500 which is 99% duty on the pwm signal, and has excellent torque characteristics even at creep speeds. Cheers, gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) 'Tis the dream of each programmer, Before his life is done, To write three lines of APL, And make the damn things run. -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On Wednesday, June 22, 2011 12:24:45 AM Karl Cunningham did opine: > One bit of caution. The speed controls I've seen built into power tools > are not isolated from the line voltage. So expect to have to isolate > (optical or otherwise) any control signal between its source and the > speed controller in the tool. > > Karl > Precisely why I used the PMDX-106, its control is opto-isolated. Cheers, gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) You will be held hostage by a radical group. -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 22 June 2011 04:12, Edward Bernard wrote: > I have thought about replacing the potentiometer with an interface to > EMC2 and would love to hear any ideas to accomplish this. My first thought > was > to use an Arduino board to accept a PWM signal and control a digital pot. Any > better (simpler) ideas? I think this circuit ought to work https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5621046688941452194 Which is something I have meant to try for a while. I have a feeling I have drawn it before, and that time I was more confident in it, I think I have left out some critical resistors. The idea is that it converts a 5V PWM to a completely isolated voltage, which could be to a different reference, and of a different magnitude. I imagine connecting it in place of the pot on a VFD for example, or to the 100V floating pot terminals on a KBIC controller. It is effectively half of a H-bridge, +5 PWM turns on an opto that discharges the capacitor, and 0v PWM turns on an opto that charges the cap. As-drawn there is a problem that unconnected PWM turns on both optos... -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 22.06.11 15:19, andy pugh wrote: > I think this circuit ought to work > https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5621046688941452194 > Which is something I have meant to try for a while. > I have a feeling I have drawn it before, and that time I was more > confident in it, I think I have left out some critical resistors. Andy, the other circuit undoubtedly has some benefits over this one, which would benefit from a minor tweak or two before firing up the soldering iron. To make this one work, it is necessary to drive the input between -2v and +7v, for forward conduction of the LEDs plus a little for the (undrawn) current limiting resistor. That's not as easy as using TTL or CMOS levels. (OK, I see below that they're intended to be connected the other way around. To make that work, the location and values of resistors do become critical.) Would another (less critical) circuit variant be of interest? For ease of driving, we could parallel the gates of a CMOS hex inverting buffer (e.g.4049) in two sets of three parallel inverters (for increased current), then series connect the two composite inverters, and finally string the anti-parallel connected optocoupler LEDs and a series 330 ohm resistor across input and output of the second composite inverter. Drive the input of the first inverter, and we have H-bridge drive of the LEDs, followed by your H-bridge output. The >3v dead-band now provided by the LEDs would allow quite small current limiting resistors to be used in each opto's output H-bridge leg, instead of the enormous 15k value, which limits the available output amplitude, unless the circuit is followed by an impedance buffer. (Such as a voltage follower.) Good steep flanks on the input waveform are advisable. > The idea is that it converts a 5V PWM to a completely isolated > voltage, which could be to a different reference, and of a different > magnitude. I imagine connecting it in place of the pot on a VFD for > example, or to the 100V floating pot terminals on a KBIC controller. > > It is effectively half of a H-bridge, +5 PWM turns on an opto that > discharges the capacitor, and 0v PWM turns on an opto that charges the > cap. To avoid the need for an op-amp to buffer the output voltage, it'd be good to reduce the H-bridge leg resistance, as described above, I think. > As-drawn there is a problem that unconnected PWM turns on both optos... Well, not quite, as drawn. The opto-isolator LEDs are reverse biased with no input, and so are as off as it's possible to be. If they were connected the other way around (so that they are on), they'd need one of the mentioned "critical resistors" in series, to avoid dead optos. (And careful driving.) Accurately transmitting an analogue signal across an optoisolator is a challenge, but I suppose we don't need that if we can measure motor RPM for our feedback. Hopefully these ideas are of some use. (Even if only to trigger yet more.) Erik -- "The difference between theory and practice is much smaller in theory than in practice..." -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 23 June 2011 11:23, Erik Christiansen wrote: > The >3v dead-band now provided by the LEDs would allow quite small > current limiting resistors to be used in each opto's output H-bridge > leg, instead of the enormous 15k value, Something I forgot to say... That 15k was part of the only Opto-isolator I could find in the library of the software I found on this hard drive. I tried to modify it, but couldn't get it to stick, so meant to leave it in and give an explanatory note, which I forgot. >> As-drawn there is a problem that unconnected PWM turns on both optos... > > Well, not quite, as drawn. The opto-isolator LEDs are reverse biased > with no input, and so are as off as it's possible to be. If they were > connected the other way around (so that they are on), they'd need one of > the mentioned "critical resistors" in series, to avoid dead optos. (And > careful driving.) Yes, it appears that I put the optos upside down too. You can see why I always buy 3 of every component... I think that it needs a 330R on the high side of each LED. The output side should be OK I think (with the spurious 15k resistors omitted) The drawback of this circuit is that wherever it is put it needs both the logic positive supply and the controlled positive supply, but I can't see any way round that if you want to actively discharge the output cap on one part of PWM cycle. Having a passive discharge resistor leads to non-linearity and pwm frequency dependency. The "classic" one resistor / one cap converter doesn't have this problem, as 0v PWM discharges the cap and 5V charges it. With a single opto you lose that symmetry. -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 23.06.11 12:01, andy pugh wrote: > Yes, it appears that I put the optos upside down too. > You can see why I always buy 3 of every component... During an 18 year stint as an electronics engineer at a German multinational, I learnt a Murphy's Law in a word: "Vorführungseffekt", which translates as "Demonstration effect". I.e. Your design works fine in the lab, but as soon as management is invited to see the demonstration, it goes belly up. It is curious how often the same thing happens to an idea when you press "send", despite having cast two quick glances over it first. Please don't tell anyone, but even after 30 years of hardware design and programming, it's still surprisingly easy to mix up pins while flipping a board over for soldering, or otherwise let the magic smoke out. (One way to take a "professionally" cool attitude to that is to buy transistors a hundred at the time, for $5 or less, I find.) > I think that it needs a 330R on the high side of each LED. The output > side should be OK I think (with the spurious 15k resistors omitted) > > The drawback of this circuit is that wherever it is put it needs both > the logic positive supply and the controlled positive supply, but I > can't see any way round that if you want to actively discharge the > output cap on one part of PWM cycle. Having a passive discharge > resistor leads to non-linearity and pwm frequency dependency. Oh, I had assumed the feed to the top of the opto H-bridge would be from the top of the removed pot, so no additional supply would be needed, now that the H-bridge resistances are low enough to obviate the need for a buffer. That also automatically scales the output voltage for compatibility. > The "classic" one resistor / one cap converter doesn't have this > problem, as 0v PWM discharges the cap and 5V charges it. With a single > opto you lose that symmetry. Yes, in that case symmetrical charge & discharge would make half speed the lowest achievable, IIUC. And even if symmetry were sacrificed, a 10:1 charge:discharge resistor ratio would limit the range to 90% of full scale. Erik -- Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it's supposed to do. - Robert A. Heinlein -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
On 23 June 2011 13:05, Erik Christiansen wrote: >> The drawback of this circuit is that wherever it is put it needs both >> the logic positive supply and the controlled positive supply, but I >> can't see any way round that if you want to actively discharge the >> output cap on one part of PWM cycle. Having a passive discharge >> resistor leads to non-linearity and pwm frequency dependency. > > Oh, I had assumed the feed to the top of the opto H-bridge would be from > the top of the removed pot, so no additional supply would be needed, now > that the H-bridge resistances are low enough to obviate the need for a > buffer. That also automatically scales the output voltage for > compatibility. Yes, that is exactly the plan. What I am saying is that the circuit needs connections to both the pot high (maybe 100+ V above logic ground, with a KBIC controller) and to the computer +5V rail. Which means an extra wire not sourced from the P-port. -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger. Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe, secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic? Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today. http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] SuperPID with EMC?
Hi, You could always just purchase one of these. :) http://homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=38 or http://homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=21 It does exactly what you are after. Cheers, Peter. On 23/06/2011 12:19 AM, andy pugh wrote: > On 22 June 2011 04:12, Edward Bernard wrote: > >> I have thought about replacing the potentiometer with an interface to >> EMC2 and would love to hear any ideas to accomplish this. My first thought >> was >> to use an Arduino board to accept a PWM signal and control a digital pot. >> Any >> better (simpler) ideas? > > I think this circuit ought to work > https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5621046688941452194 > Which is something I have meant to try for a while. > I have a feeling I have drawn it before, and that time I was more > confident in it, I think I have left out some critical resistors. > > The idea is that it converts a 5V PWM to a completely isolated > voltage, which could be to a different reference, and of a different > magnitude. I imagine connecting it in place of the pot on a VFD for > example, or to the 100V floating pot terminals on a KBIC controller. > > It is effectively half of a H-bridge, +5 PWM turns on an opto that > discharges the capacitor, and 0v PWM turns on an opto that charges the > cap. > > As-drawn there is a problem that unconnected PWM turns on both optos... > -- - eStore: http://www.homanndesigns.com/store Web : http://www.homanndesigns.com ModIO - Modbus Interface Unit email : pe...@homanndesigns.com DigiSpeed - Isolated 10Vdc I/F Phone : +61 421 601 665 TurboTaig - Taig Mill Upgrade board -- All of the data generated in your IT infrastructure is seriously valuable. Why? It contains a definitive record of application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-d2d-c2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
