Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[andy pugh]

On 22 February 2012 20:30, gene heskett  wrote:

> So, how does one chemically blacken brass?

Google says: 
http://www.modelshipwrightsdatabase.com/Articles/MetalBlackening.pdf


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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[dave]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:30:39 -0500
gene heskett  wrote:

> Greetings all;
> 
> The new encoder wheel I made last night, by fiddling with the math
> that determines the slot width until it has virtually no side wobble
> of the 1/16" mill at the inner apex of the slot, makes me ask a
> question about what is the best way to chemically blacken brass,
> hopefully with the intention of preventing reflections from the sides
> of the cut in the brass that might artificially broaden the effective
> aperture of the slot.
> 
> So, how does one chemically blacken brass?
Some one on the web suggested Copper Carbonate and household ammonia. 
I think I'd go with a sulfide. (enjoy the smell but do it outside ).
BNG (big nasty grin). 
The web should have some good suggestions; artists blacken brass all
the time. 

Dave
> 
> Ideally something that destroys any and all surface gloss, leaving a
> dead flat microscopic felt like finish.  
> 
> I considered paint, but at those angles of reflectance, even black
> paint might as well be glossy white.  Plus I don't have any other
> than some ebony wood stain. ;-)
> 
> Cheers, Gene


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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 03:47:20 PM gene heskett did opine:

> Greetings all;
> 
> The new encoder wheel I made last night, by fiddling with the math that
> determines the slot width until it has virtually no side wobble of the
> 1/16" mill at the inner apex of the slot, makes me ask a question about
> what is the best way to chemically blacken brass, hopefully with the
> intention of preventing reflections from the sides of the cut in the
> brass that might artificially broaden the effective aperture of the
> slot.
> 
> So, how does one chemically blacken brass?
> 
> Ideally something that destroys any and all surface gloss, leaving a
> dead flat microscopic felt like finish.
> 
> I considered paint, but at those angles of reflectance, even black paint
> might as well be glossy white.  Plus I don't have any other than some
> ebony wood stain. ;-)
> 
> Cheers, Gene

The problem can I believe, be seen in the attached .jpg.  And yes, now that 
the software problems in cutting it incrementally have been addressed, a 
4th disk will be cut that is hopefully more consistently cut.  My 
sacrifical HDPE caused this one to warp about 10 thou, so I will make 
another using a wooden sacrifice pad, and cut about 5 thou deeper to get 
all the way through with out having to peck some of those slots out with my 
pocket knife.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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My web page: 
HOST SYSTEM NOT RESPONDING, PROBABLY DOWN. DO YOU WANT TO WAIT? (Y/N)
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Greg Bernard]

There are numerous solutions that work, the most common being liver of sulfur 
(I don't remember what the modern name is). The easiest would be the stuff by 
Birchwood-Casey which should be available at any good gunsmith shop.




>
> From: gene heskett 
>To: LinuxCNC Users List  
>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 2:30 PM
>Subject: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?
> 
>Greetings all;
>
>The new encoder wheel I made last night, by fiddling with the math that 
>determines the slot width until it has virtually no side wobble of the 
>1/16" mill at the inner apex of the slot, makes me ask a question about 
>what is the best way to chemically blacken brass, hopefully with the 
>intention of preventing reflections from the sides of the cut in the brass 
>that might artificially broaden the effective aperture of the slot.
>
>So, how does one chemically blacken brass?
>
>Ideally something that destroys any and all surface gloss, leaving a dead 
>flat microscopic felt like finish.  
>
>I considered paint, but at those angles of reflectance, even black paint 
>might as well be glossy white.  Plus I don't have any other than some ebony 
>wood stain. ;-)
>
>Cheers, Gene
>-- 
>"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>My web page: 
>The trouble with you
>Is the trouble with me.
>Got two good eyes
>But we still don't see.
>        -- Robert Hunter, "Workingman's Dead"
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:09:51 PM andy pugh did opine:

> On 22 February 2012 20:30, gene heskett  wrote:
> > So, how does one chemically blacken brass?
> 
> Google says:
> http://www.modelshipwrightsdatabase.com/Articles/MetalBlackening.pdf

>From the images there, it appears most of them do leave an excessive amount 
of gloss on the surfaces.  I wonder if an initial cleaning in something 
like Tarnex, which leaves a dull, non glossy, fairly white surface behind 
might help?  It works great on cartridge cases, then the shine is restored 
by an overnight session in my Lyman vibrator with a corn cob and rouge 
carrying media, which I don't do because that media has now been well 
contaminated with case lube.  I don't want the gloss anyway.

I'll go see if Jerry's has any of that G96 brass black this evening, it 
looks about as foolproof as any.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't 
know.
-- Mark Twain

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:17:54 PM dave did opine:

> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:30:39 -0500
> 
> gene heskett  wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> > 
> > The new encoder wheel I made last night, by fiddling with the math
> > that determines the slot width until it has virtually no side wobble
> > of the 1/16" mill at the inner apex of the slot, makes me ask a
> > question about what is the best way to chemically blacken brass,
> > hopefully with the intention of preventing reflections from the sides
> > of the cut in the brass that might artificially broaden the effective
> > aperture of the slot.
> > 
> > So, how does one chemically blacken brass?
> 
> Some one on the web suggested Copper Carbonate and household ammonia.
> I think I'd go with a sulfide. (enjoy the smell but do it outside ).
> BNG (big nasty grin).
> The web should have some good suggestions; artists blacken brass all
> the time.
> 
> Dave

I looked at that Dave, but the images seemed to suggest lots of gloss to 
the final finish, not exactly what I need given the angle of incidence is 
likely under 20 degrees at the highest.

No clue where I could get the copper carbonate either. :(  It sounds 
expensive by the time I pay the hazmat fees.

Thanks.

> 
> > Ideally something that destroys any and all surface gloss, leaving a
> > dead flat microscopic felt like finish.
> > 
> > I considered paint, but at those angles of reflectance, even black
> > paint might as well be glossy white.  Plus I don't have any other
> > than some ebony wood stain. ;-)
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> 
> -- Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
> Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
> also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Consultation, n.:
Medical term meaning "to share the wealth."

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:22:08 PM Greg Bernard did opine:

> There are numerous solutions that work, the most common being liver of
> sulfur (I don't remember what the modern name is). The easiest would be
> the stuff by Birchwood-Casey which should be available at any good
> gunsmith shop.
> 
That, or the G96 clone, is what I'll go shopping for tonight.

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
lawsuit, n.:
A machine which you go into as a pig and come out as a sausage.
-- Ambrose Bierce

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[R.L. Wurdack]

Whatever you use, beware of reflections from the sides of the slots 
themselves. i.e. The surface of the disk may not be the only reflection 
problem. Will lampblack with a coat of clear flat Krylon work, or just flat 
black Krylon.?

Dick
- Original Message - 
From: "gene heskett" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?


> On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:09:51 PM andy pugh did opine:
>
>> On 22 February 2012 20:30, gene heskett  wrote:
>> > So, how does one chemically blacken brass?
>>
>> Google says:
>> http://www.modelshipwrightsdatabase.com/Articles/MetalBlackening.pdf
>
>>From the images there, it appears most of them do leave an excessive 
>>amount
> of gloss on the surfaces.  I wonder if an initial cleaning in something
> like Tarnex, which leaves a dull, non glossy, fairly white surface behind
> might help?  It works great on cartridge cases, then the shine is restored
> by an overnight session in my Lyman vibrator with a corn cob and rouge
> carrying media, which I don't do because that media has now been well
> contaminated with case lube.  I don't want the gloss anyway.
>
> I'll go see if Jerry's has any of that G96 brass black this evening, it
> looks about as foolproof as any.
>
> Cheers, Gene
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
> I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't
> know.
> -- Mark Twain
>
> --
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> Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[andy pugh]

On 22 February 2012 21:43, R.L. Wurdack  wrote:
>  Will lampblack with a coat of clear flat Krylon work, or just flat
> black Krylon.?

It's hard to say without infra-red eyes. I made an encoder with a
laser-printed target, it worked great until I covered it with a
protective plastic film, at which point both black and white looked
identical to the detector.

-- 
atp
The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong.

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Peter Blodow]

Gene,
blacking of brass is easy. Get yourself a small quantity (a piece of 
fingernail size is enough) of potassium sulfide, K²S, from the pharmacy, 
commonly called liver of sulphur and sold cheaply (in Germany)  for 
medical bath purposes, for instance, as skin cleaner for teenager (how 
about that?). Dissolve a very small amount in a lot of water, so the 
solution is only faintly brown, not more. Put in your degreased 
workpiece and watch it under good lighting. It will turn brown and then 
turn black, at which point you take it out quickly and rinse it under 
running tap water with scrubbing (old toothbrush). If it seems to be 
insufficiently black, repeat.
 
The goal is to produce a very thin layer of copper sulfide on the 
surface (dead black). Longer application will cause the layer  to become 
too thick and to peel off in tiny flakes or sheets. Depending on the 
alloy, It may help to etch the brass at first with hot citric acid, 
formic acid, acetic acid (concentrated vinegar), coffee percolator 
cleaner (sulfonic acid) or some other organic acid to remove the zinc on 
the surface, making the copper come out on the surface so the brass 
appears reddish.

No finishing afterwards as this will make the surface more dense and 
reflective.

Best regards
Peter Blodow









gene heskett schrieb:
> Greetings all;
>
> The new encoder wheel I made last night, by fiddling with the math that 
> determines the slot width until it has virtually no side wobble of the 
> 1/16" mill at the inner apex of the slot, makes me ask a question about 
> what is the best way to chemically blacken brass, hopefully with the 
> intention of preventing reflections from the sides of the cut in the brass 
> that might artificially broaden the effective aperture of the slot.
>
> So, how does one chemically blacken brass?
>
> Ideally something that destroys any and all surface gloss, leaving a dead 
> flat microscopic felt like finish.  
>
> I considered paint, but at those angles of reflectance, even black paint 
> might as well be glossy white.  Plus I don't have any other than some ebony 
> wood stain. ;-)
>
> Cheers, Gene
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 09:14:52 PM R.L. Wurdack did opine:

> Whatever you use, beware of reflections from the sides of the slots
> themselves.

Precisely my concern.  The front & rear faces of the disk are basically a 
never mind.  Its the walls of the slots I am concerned with.

> i.e. The surface of the disk may not be the only reflection
> problem. Will lampblack with a coat of clear flat Krylon work, or just
> flat black Krylon.?

Lampblack would be fine IF one could find a binder as effective as the 
krylon that wasn't glossy at low incident angles.  A case where thin is 
good, but I expect trying to mill the outside 1/3" of it down to the point 
where knife edge diffraction was the major effect, would be pretty 
frustrating.  Hence the search for something that would leave a truly non-
glossy surface.  I, after thinking about it, may just clean it up with 
Tarnex to dull & degrease the surface, and after much rinsing, try the 
vinegar dip and ammonia fumes route.  After adjusting a few more params in 
the gcode, just made another, considerably neater cut one I am quite a bit 
happier with, if I can get it suitable blackened inside the slots.  Low res 
.jpg attached

Actually Dick, this is a case where a roughing bit might have been an 
advantage. :-)  But I don't know as I've ever seen a 1/16" diameter 
rougher.  That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I never thought of 
it till a couple minutes ago.

Hindsight, always 20/05 or better you know. :)

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Max told his friend that he'd just as soon not go hiking in the hills.
Said he, "I'm an anti-climb Max."
[So is that punchline.]
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 09:37:28 PM andy pugh did opine:

> On 22 February 2012 21:43, R.L. Wurdack  wrote:
> >  Will lampblack with a coat of clear flat Krylon work, or just flat
> > 
> > black Krylon.?
> 
> It's hard to say without infra-red eyes. I made an encoder with a
> laser-printed target, it worked great until I covered it with a
> protective plastic film, at which point both black and white looked
> identical to the detector.

Chuckle.  I can see it now, if reflective, the plastic film was very high 
gloss in the infrared I assume.  Or if transmissive, it was opaque and all 
black I'd guess.

Simple little things our eyes don't see can sure eat our lunch for us, that 
is for sure.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Success is relative: It is what we can make of the mess we have made of 
things.
-- T.S. Eliot, "The Family Reunion"

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 09:42:13 PM Peter Blodow did opine:

> Gene,
> blacking of brass is easy. Get yourself a small quantity (a piece of
> fingernail size is enough) of potassium sulfide, K²S, from the pharmacy,
> commonly called liver of sulphur and sold cheaply (in Germany)  for
> medical bath purposes, for instance, as skin cleaner for teenager (how
> about that?). Dissolve a very small amount in a lot of water, so the
> solution is only faintly brown, not more. Put in your degreased
> workpiece and watch it under good lighting. It will turn brown and then
> turn black, at which point you take it out quickly and rinse it under
> running tap water with scrubbing (old toothbrush). If it seems to be
> insufficiently black, repeat.
> 
> The goal is to produce a very thin layer of copper sulfide on the
> surface (dead black). Longer application will cause the layer  to become
> too thick and to peel off in tiny flakes or sheets. Depending on the
> alloy, It may help to etch the brass at first with hot citric acid,
> formic acid, acetic acid (concentrated vinegar), coffee percolator
> cleaner (sulfonic acid) or some other organic acid to remove the zinc on
> the surface, making the copper come out on the surface so the brass
> appears reddish.
 
In other words, my cleaning with Tarnex (toluol) is the reverse as it 
leaves the surface more zinc'y (white) than coppery (red).  Thanks for that 
bit of enlightenment.

> No finishing afterwards as this will make the surface more dense and
> reflective.

That is how I've understood it.  And other than blowing the lint or 
whatever out of the slots occasionally, there should be zero wearing of the 
finish in the slots.

Thanks Peter.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Greg Bernard]

You shouldn't have any problems with reflections from the sides of the slot as 
they should be equally blackened. I used to work in the optical industry where 
we used the liver of sulfur  treatment for brass telescope parts and all the 
interior surfaces blackened nicely.


>
> From: gene heskett 
>To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:35 PM
>Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?
> 
>On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 09:14:52 PM R.L. Wurdack did opine:
>
>> Whatever you use, beware of reflections from the sides of the slots
>> themselves.
>
>Precisely my concern.  The front & rear faces of the disk are basically a 
>never mind.  Its the walls of the slots I am concerned with.
>
>> i.e. The surface of the disk may not be the only reflection
>> problem. Will lampblack with a coat of clear flat Krylon work, or just
>> flat black Krylon.?
>
>Lampblack would be fine IF one could find a binder as effective as the 
>krylon that wasn't glossy at low incident angles.  A case where thin is 
>good, but I expect trying to mill the outside 1/3" of it down to the point 
>where knife edge diffraction was the major effect, would be pretty 
>frustrating.  Hence the search for something that would leave a truly non-
>glossy surface.  I, after thinking about it, may just clean it up with 
>Tarnex to dull & degrease the surface, and after much rinsing, try the 
>vinegar dip and ammonia fumes route.  After adjusting a few more params in 
>the gcode, just made another, considerably neater cut one I am quite a bit 
>happier with, if I can get it suitable blackened inside the slots.  Low res 
>.jpg attached
>
>Actually Dick, this is a case where a roughing bit might have been an 
>advantage. :-)  But I don't know as I've ever seen a 1/16" diameter 
>rougher.  That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I never thought of 
>it till a couple minutes ago.
>
>Hindsight, always 20/05 or better you know. :)
>
>Cheers, Gene
>-- 
>"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
>Max told his friend that he'd just as soon not go hiking in the hills.
>Said he, "I'm an anti-climb Max."
>    [So is that punchline.]
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, February 23, 2012 12:26:56 AM Greg Bernard did opine:

> You shouldn't have any problems with reflections from the sides of the
> slot as they should be equally blackened. I used to work in the optical
> industry where we used the liver of sulfur  treatment for brass
> telescope parts and all the interior surfaces blackened nicely.
> 
I often wondered how you folks got that dead flat, near black surface.

Thanks Greg

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Jon Elson]

gene heskett wrote:
> Lampblack would be fine IF one could find a binder as effective as the 
> krylon that wasn't glossy at low incident angles.  A case where thin is 
> good, but I expect trying to mill the outside 1/3" of it down to the point 
> where knife edge diffraction was the major effect, would be pretty 
> frustrating.
Might be possible to mill it with a ball-end mill so that the
sides were not parallel to the light path.

Looks cool, anyway!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, February 23, 2012 02:31:08 AM Jon Elson did opine:

> gene heskett wrote:
> > Lampblack would be fine IF one could find a binder as effective as the
> > krylon that wasn't glossy at low incident angles.  A case where thin
> > is good, but I expect trying to mill the outside 1/3" of it down to
> > the point where knife edge diffraction was the major effect, would be
> > pretty frustrating.
> 
> Might be possible to mill it with a ball-end mill so that the
> sides were not parallel to the light path.
> 
> Looks cool, anyway!
> 
> Jon

Thanks Jon.  I thought of that, but by the time I had it clamped down on a 
sacrificial slab of HDPE, it was bowed up in the middle by 13 thou or so.  
Unless I mapped the cut depth carefully, the slot width would have been the 
largest variable.  To get fully thru a 32 thou thick sheet, I actually had 
to carve 47 thou deep on the final pass.  Theoretically I imagine there is 
a timing error from that, but it should get lost in the noise in spite of 
it.  I thought about reducing the slot count from 45 to 36, but that would 
stretch the edges to 2.5 degrees apart.  If I can't get a good duty cycle 
and quadrature pattern out of this one after its blacked, then I supposed 
I'll make another with fewer slots just to widen the dark bars, but we'll 
see how close to ideal this one is first.  I sure wish I had more diameter 
available though.  That would make things a lot easier.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Mark Wendt]

On 02/22/2012 04:23 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:22:08 PM Greg Bernard did opine:
>
>
>> There are numerous solutions that work, the most common being liver of
>> sulfur (I don't remember what the modern name is). The easiest would be
>> the stuff by Birchwood-Casey which should be available at any good
>> gunsmith shop.
>>
>>  
> That, or the G96 clone, is what I'll go shopping for tonight.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>
Walmart has Birchwood Caseys Brass Black in the sporting goods section 
by the gun counter.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, February 23, 2012 08:25:14 AM Mark Wendt did opine:

> On 02/22/2012 04:23 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:22:08 PM Greg Bernard did opine:
> >> There are numerous solutions that work, the most common being liver
> >> of sulfur (I don't remember what the modern name is). The easiest
> >> would be the stuff by Birchwood-Casey which should be available at
> >> any good gunsmith shop.
> > 
> > That, or the G96 clone, is what I'll go shopping for tonight.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> Walmart has Birchwood Caseys Brass Black in the sporting goods section
> by the gun counter.
> 
> Mark
> 
2nd choice, I'll check at the local pharmacy's for K2S first, aka liver of 
sulpher.  I have seen that work on silver, and the finish is fairly 
durable.

Thanks Mark.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Dave]

FWIW, not all Walmarts have gun counters..

Apparently we are not worthy, even though many used pickup trucks here 
come equipped with shotgun racks in the back window..  ;-)

Dave

On 2/23/2012 5:15 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> On 02/22/2012 04:23 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:22:08 PM Greg Bernard did opine:
>>
>>
>>  
>>> There are numerous solutions that work, the most common being liver of
>>> sulfur (I don't remember what the modern name is). The easiest would be
>>> the stuff by Birchwood-Casey which should be available at any good
>>> gunsmith shop.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> That, or the G96 clone, is what I'll go shopping for tonight.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Cheers, Gene
>>
>>  
> Walmart has Birchwood Caseys Brass Black in the sporting goods section
> by the gun counter.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, February 23, 2012 01:50:49 PM Dave did opine:

> FWIW, not all Walmarts have gun counters..
> 
> Apparently we are not worthy, even though many used pickup trucks here
> come equipped with shotgun racks in the back window..  ;-)
> 
> Dave

Chuckle.  I spent a bit over a decade in western SD, Rapid City TBE.
It was rare to see a shotgun in those rear window racks, more likely a 
triplet of some boat hook 22 RF auto plus a pair of pre-64 Winchesters in 
some 'reach out and touch someone' calibers.  But my 52 Ford PU was a wee 
bit more discreet about it, a socket on the floor beside my left foot, with 
a bracket on the dash so the barrel was mostly hidden behind the front 
doorpost.  Very handy, 5 seconds including stopping time when game was 
spotted, to the thump of a meat hit echoing back at me.  All very quietly 
done if the door latches & hinges were well lubricated.  That fed my family 
well for about 10 years & 3 engine swaps.  A 52 with the I badge on the 
hood wasn't expected to hike the front end and run off and hide from more 
'modern' vehicles, but it could. ;-)

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 2/22/2012 9:35 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 09:14:52 PM R.L. Wurdack did opine:
>
>> Whatever you use, beware of reflections from the sides of the slots
>> themselves.
> Precisely my concern.  The front&  rear faces of the disk are basically a
> never mind.  Its the walls of the slots I am concerned with.
>
>> i.e. The surface of the disk may not be the only reflection
>> problem. Will lampblack with a coat of clear flat Krylon work, or just
>> flat black Krylon.?
> Lampblack would be fine IF one could find a binder as effective as the
> krylon that wasn't glossy at low incident angles.  A case where thin is
> good, but I expect trying to mill the outside 1/3" of it down to the point
> where knife edge diffraction was the major effect, would be pretty
> frustrating.  Hence the search for something that would leave a truly non-
> glossy surface.  I, after thinking about it, may just clean it up with
> Tarnex to dull&  degrease the surface, and after much rinsing, try the
> vinegar dip and ammonia fumes route.  After adjusting a few more params in
> the gcode, just made another, considerably neater cut one I am quite a bit
> happier with, if I can get it suitable blackened inside the slots.  Low res
> .jpg attached
>
> Actually Dick, this is a case where a roughing bit might have been an
> advantage. :-)  But I don't know as I've ever seen a 1/16" diameter
> rougher.  That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I never thought of
> it till a couple minutes ago.
>
> Hindsight, always 20/05 or better you know. :)
>
Gene:

Back when Jimmy Carter was President, I was engaged in some high-end 
optical physics work that included measuring the specular and diffuse 
reflectance of a large number of materials as a function of wavelength 
and of angle of incidence. I could tell you what it was for but then I'd 
have to...well, you know the saying.

I never found anything better than lampblack smoked right onto the test 
coupon.  It became our reference material. Of course, it lasted only as 
long as we didn't touch it.

One technique that can help mitigate the reflectance from the sides of 
the slots is to collimate the light source and use baffles before and after.

Simple pencil-and-paper raytracings of prospective geometries can reveal 
a lot. So can a test rig with a scope.

Good luck.

Regards,
Kent



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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, February 23, 2012 04:54:40 PM Kent A. Reed did opine:

> On 2/22/2012 9:35 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 09:14:52 PM R.L. Wurdack did opine:
> >> Whatever you use, beware of reflections from the sides of the slots
> >> themselves.
> > 
> > Precisely my concern.  The front&  rear faces of the disk are
> > basically a never mind.  Its the walls of the slots I am concerned
> > with.
> > 
> >> i.e. The surface of the disk may not be the only reflection
> >> problem. Will lampblack with a coat of clear flat Krylon work, or
> >> just flat black Krylon.?
> > 
> > Lampblack would be fine IF one could find a binder as effective as the
> > krylon that wasn't glossy at low incident angles.  A case where thin
> > is good, but I expect trying to mill the outside 1/3" of it down to
> > the point where knife edge diffraction was the major effect, would be
> > pretty frustrating.  Hence the search for something that would leave
> > a truly non- glossy surface.  I, after thinking about it, may just
> > clean it up with Tarnex to dull&  degrease the surface, and after
> > much rinsing, try the vinegar dip and ammonia fumes route.  After
> > adjusting a few more params in the gcode, just made another,
> > considerably neater cut one I am quite a bit happier with, if I can
> > get it suitable blackened inside the slots.  Low res .jpg attached
> > 
> > Actually Dick, this is a case where a roughing bit might have been an
> > advantage. :-)  But I don't know as I've ever seen a 1/16" diameter
> > rougher.  That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I never
> > thought of it till a couple minutes ago.
> > 
> > Hindsight, always 20/05 or better you know. :)
> 
> Gene:
> 
> Back when Jimmy Carter was President, I was engaged in some high-end
> optical physics work that included measuring the specular and diffuse
> reflectance of a large number of materials as a function of wavelength
> and of angle of incidence. I could tell you what it was for but then I'd
> have to...well, you know the saying.
> 
> I never found anything better than lampblack smoked right onto the test
> coupon.  It became our reference material. Of course, it lasted only as
> long as we didn't touch it.
> 
> One technique that can help mitigate the reflectance from the sides of
> the slots is to collimate the light source and use baffles before and
> after.
> 
> Simple pencil-and-paper raytracings of prospective geometries can reveal
> a lot. So can a test rig with a scope.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Regards,
> Kent
> 
I've been screwing around with it a bit this afternoon, first giving a good 
scrubbing with lava bar soap which has pumice in it, dried, then rinsed & 
swirled for a few minutes in acetone, dried, then dipped in vinegar & hung 
over a half inch of ammonia in a capped container.  What I seem to be 
getting is a very mottled almost black with red splotches, and the vinegar 
held in the slots by meniscus action is slowly dripping a blue tint into 
the ammonia, and on the re-rinse in the vinegar, slowly turning it blue.  
And it doesn't appear the edges of the slots, freshly cut without anything 
but an air sweep on the tool, no coolant/lube to contaminate the cut 
surface, aren't taking the color very well.  I am not having great luck 
getting the brass to wet with the vinegar, even after I wasted an old brush 
in our electric toothbrush & worked it over again under the vinegar just 
now.

When the missus and the car get back, she's knitting a baby blanket or 
something for a friend, on a knitting loom we bought but haven't brought 
home yet & might get finished today if she has what it takes, copd being 
what it is, and I am getting tired of not having wheels so the check may be 
wrote for a fresher pickup yet, I've been stranded without wheels most of 
the week so far and haven't had a chance to go run down some liver of 
sulfur when a real pharmacist is behind the counter.  Or even some of the 
Brass Black at wallies.  Tonight, or I write a check.  Hell, I can't even 
get to Advance Auto & talk to the real man about ordering a $2100 reman 
engine for my GMC!  I am getting a bit frustrated as can be read here.

Cheers, Gene
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"Tell 'em I lied."

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:44:50 PM Kent A. Reed did opine:

> On 2/22/2012 9:35 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 09:14:52 PM R.L. Wurdack did opine:
> >> Whatever you use, beware of reflections from the sides of the slots
> >> themselves.
> > 
> > Precisely my concern.  The front&  rear faces of the disk are
> > basically a never mind.  Its the walls of the slots I am concerned
> > with.
> > 
> >> i.e. The surface of the disk may not be the only reflection
> >> problem. Will lampblack with a coat of clear flat Krylon work, or
> >> just flat black Krylon.?
> > 
> > Lampblack would be fine IF one could find a binder as effective as the
> > krylon that wasn't glossy at low incident angles.  A case where thin
> > is good, but I expect trying to mill the outside 1/3" of it down to
> > the point where knife edge diffraction was the major effect, would be
> > pretty frustrating.  Hence the search for something that would leave
> > a truly non- glossy surface.  I, after thinking about it, may just
> > clean it up with Tarnex to dull&  degrease the surface, and after
> > much rinsing, try the vinegar dip and ammonia fumes route.  After
> > adjusting a few more params in the gcode, just made another,
> > considerably neater cut one I am quite a bit happier with, if I can
> > get it suitable blackened inside the slots.  Low res .jpg attached
> > 
> > Actually Dick, this is a case where a roughing bit might have been an
> > advantage. :-)  But I don't know as I've ever seen a 1/16" diameter
> > rougher.  That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I never
> > thought of it till a couple minutes ago.
> > 
> > Hindsight, always 20/05 or better you know. :)
> 
> Gene:
> 
> Back when Jimmy Carter was President, I was engaged in some high-end
> optical physics work that included measuring the specular and diffuse
> reflectance of a large number of materials as a function of wavelength
> and of angle of incidence. I could tell you what it was for but then I'd
> have to...well, you know the saying.
> 
> I never found anything better than lampblack smoked right onto the test
> coupon.  It became our reference material. Of course, it lasted only as
> long as we didn't touch it.
> 
> One technique that can help mitigate the reflectance from the sides of
> the slots is to collimate the light source and use baffles before and
> after.
> 
> Simple pencil-and-paper raytracings of prospective geometries can reveal
> a lot. So can a test rig with a scope.

Which is what I am using since I have a dual trace 100 mhz Hitachi V-1065.

I found another glitch in the gcode this evening & squished that, turns out 
that the main code to carve the slots diddled its own constants when 
carving the index slot, so pass 2 was carving 20 thou wider slots.  So I 
added a couple more vars to save the original math & restored from those at 
the top of each loop.  Then, using LinuxCNC as a tape measure, I looked at 
the path it was going to carve, and adjusted the number of slots downward 
one at a time until I could move Y, starting centered on a slot about 2 
below the centerline of the Y axis, put it in the .1" at a time jog mode 
and tapped the up arrow 8 times to see where the other opto was, and 
adjusted the number of slots until a .8" separation, which is this PCB's 
mounting distance, with Z in the middle so it catches the index slot, until 
it was dead between the slots when up .800".  That turned out to be 39 
slots/360 degrees.  Scan attached & I don't think it will need blacking as 
the duty cycle now is about 52%/48%.  I was out touring the local 
pharmacies (well, 4 out of 5) and they, nor Jerry's nor Wallies had 
anything that could be construed to be a brass black solution, so if I want 
any, its off the net & pay the (&#^ hazmat fees, except for the K2S on 
ebay.

With rigid enough mounting of the opto's, I should be good to go.

I don't have any bypassing on this test board, so I can see the crosstalk 
glitch of the index pulse too, and its rather well centered, either on the 
/A|B or on the A|/B condition depending on which edge.

Is hal's ability to track this instant, or in the case of a quadrature 
signal source, actually based on the running average of the last 4 edges?

That latter would seem to be the best compromise between instant control, 
and noise reduction in the signal timing over one full 4 edge cycle, if I 
understand how it works at all.  That, in my mind, should do a good job of 
averaging out any duty cycle errors.

> Good luck.

Its looking better, see scan attached.  This one I will actually use, at 
least till I know better. :)
> 
> Regards,
> Kent
> 
I assume the missus was taken care of while you were in the shop.  How are 
both she and you doing now?
 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[charles green]

sulfuic acid (battery acid) wont eat copper.  might make a matte surface on 
brass.  then, if silver blackens better than copper, so might a silver plating 
applied over matte copper/brass.

http://www.swdinc.com/black_oxide.htm if you have a tin can and a pressure 
cooker.

--- On Thu, 2/23/12, gene heskett  wrote:

> From: gene heskett 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Date: Thursday, February 23, 2012, 5:28 AM
> On Thursday, February 23, 2012
> 08:25:14 AM Mark Wendt did opine:
> 
> > On 02/22/2012 04:23 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 04:22:08 PM Greg
> Bernard did opine:
> > >> There are numerous solutions that work, the
> most common being liver
> > >> of sulfur (I don't remember what the modern
> name is). The easiest
> > >> would be the stuff by Birchwood-Casey which
> should be available at
> > >> any good gunsmith shop.
> > > 
> > > That, or the G96 clone, is what I'll go shopping
> for tonight.
> > > 
> > > Thanks.
> > > 
> > > Cheers, Gene
> > 
> > Walmart has Birchwood Caseys Brass Black in the
> sporting goods section
> > by the gun counter.
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> 2nd choice, I'll check at the local pharmacy's for K2S
> first, aka liver of 
> sulpher.  I have seen that work on silver, and the
> finish is fairly 
> durable.
> 
> Thanks Mark.
> 
> Cheers, Gene
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene>
> I know you believe you understand what you think this
> fortune says, but
> I'm not sure you realize that what you are reading is not
> what it means.
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-02-25 at 03:31 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
... snip
> Does anybody know what the attachment size limit is?  The absolute smallest 
> I can get out of GIMP is 70k, attached.  But ugly, but you get the idea if 
> it comes through.
... snip

I think it is a little over 40k. That's the figure I shoot for. Reducing
the number of colors as well as the resolution can help. 40k's not much
but it can replace a lot of ASCII art.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:01:46 AM gene heskett did opine:

> Does anybody know what the attachment size limit is?  The absolute
> smallest I can get out of GIMP is 70k, attached.  But ugly, but you get
> the idea if it comes through.
> 
Thank you Mr. Moderator.  And now I know, from the reject msg, the server 
limit is 90k, which that image, once base64'd, was slightly over.  Unseen 
in that snapshot is a slight timing width glitch in one pulse of the 39 
that make one revolution, the result of the outer end of the index slot 
being about 2 thou wider than the main slots are, so I need to move the 
index slot to a position between 2 main slots, and increase the inner 
diameter of the main slots by perhaps 20 thou at the same time as it was 
difficult to get main slot noise out of the index output unless the outer 
edge of the wheel was audibly touching the center web of that opto device.
With very careful adjustment, this one works.

Pix of this disk attached, much 'cleaner' carving this time, no blackening 
needed apparently.  I get these pix from my old scanner and they are only 
about 22k before being base64'd.

I have to open up the head of the mill and replace much of the nylon 
howlers in there, the key slots in the hubs are pretty wobbled out, about 
1/4 turn of play in the drive these days.  I will investigate the 
possibility of hiding another similar encoder in there at the same time.  
I'll not toss the old ones too quickly as its probably 99% in the gear on 
the spindle shaft & it might be feasable to cut a steel hub with fingers 
filling the casting webs of the old gear, which s/b a forever fix for that, 
forever being whatever it takes to outlast me. :)

Would there be any interest in my making up any more of these opto 
assemblies once I get what I need done?  Say at $75 a copy so its a wheel 
that wouldn't need to be invented again?  The opto's are on .400" centers & 
once adjusted, s/b pretty darned stable.

I've temporarily replaced my router with a Buffalo Nfinity Hi-power running 
dd-wrt, which means my web page is offline until I figure out how to ssh 
into it and fix the port forwarding, it seems the help menu, which is not a 
close able menu, is sitting on top of the enable checkbox in the gui for 
port forwarding setups.  If anyone asks, I can re-install the old one for a 
day or 2, which should restore that.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
"Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you may work."
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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-02-25 at 11:41 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
... snip
> 
> I've temporarily replaced my router with a Buffalo Nfinity Hi-power running 
> dd-wrt, which means my web page is offline until I figure out how to ssh 
> into it and fix the port forwarding,

Isn't ssh available from the LAN side? Is the ssh server on a non
standard port?

>  it seems the help menu, which is not a 
> close able menu, is sitting on top of the enable checkbox in the gui for 
> port forwarding setups.

I've had to turn off the browser's page style to get to or view messed
up pages.

In Firefox: View -> Page Style -> No Style

>   If anyone asks, I can re-install the old one for a 
> day or 2, which should restore that.
... snip
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, February 25, 2012 02:21:48 PM Kirk Wallace did opine:

> On Sat, 2012-02-25 at 11:41 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> ... snip
> 
> > I've temporarily replaced my router with a Buffalo Nfinity Hi-power
> > running dd-wrt, which means my web page is offline until I figure out
> > how to ssh into it and fix the port forwarding,
> 
> Isn't ssh available from the LAN side? Is the ssh server on a non
> standard port?

I had to enable it first.  ;-)
 
> >  it seems the help menu, which is not a
> > 
> > close able menu, is sitting on top of the enable checkbox in the gui
> > for port forwarding setups.
> 
> I've had to turn off the browser's page style to get to or view messed
> up pages.
> 
> In Firefox: View -> Page Style -> No Style

I did that, next time I log into the buffalo I'll check & see if that fixes 
it, thanks.  I have sent dd-wrt and buffalo msgs about that. That config 
line is about 2" longer than any other config line in the gui and really 
should have been made into 2 shorter lines.
 
> >   If anyone asks, I can re-install the old one for a
> > 
> > day or 2, which should restore that.
> 
> ... snip

Which I just did as I had discovered httpd was running on the non-std port, 
just to check if it was still working, so the old router, a netgear 
WNR3500L is now back in circuit, was actually NOT doing a port forward, it 
was just transparent.  So basically I need to enable that port 85 both ways 
thru dd-wrt and then it should Just Work(TM).  As is, it looks like a 
default rule is catching it.

ATM its working I believe.

Pursuant to the offer of the opto stuff, I can probably update the eagle 
files on my web page as that would simplify making your own boards if you 
have a lot of time to do it.  On my machine, one board is around 5 or 6 
hours runtime due to my slow rpm spindle limits.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
We are each only one drop in a great ocean -- but some of the drops 
sparkle!

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-02-25 at 14:35 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
... snip
> I did that, next time I log into the buffalo I'll check & see if that fixes 
> it, thanks.  I have sent dd-wrt and buffalo msgs about that. That config 
> line is about 2" longer than any other config line in the gui and really 
> should have been made into 2 shorter lines.
... snip

I avoided dd-wrt early on due its proprietary nature. OpenWRT works
great for me.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[Jon Elson]

gene heskett wrote:
>
> So I played with the code a little more and made another wheel yesterday, 
> then carved up a bracket to hold the pcb & got it mounted, but I think the 
> scope pix I took is too big to pass muster at the server.  The wheel wound 
> up with only 39 slots because that was about the best quadrature timing I 
> could get at the allowed diameter.  That still gives a 2.25 degree 
> resolution.  Shrinking that pix much below 185k and the jpeg artifacts get 
> plumb fugly.
>
> It seems that when I switched from the hobby shop brass, to a slice off the 
> end of a brass door kickplate, the brass got easier to machine.  Same .032" 
> thickness.
>   
Looks like you GOT IT!  The quadrature looks clean and 90 degrees,
and 50% duty cycle.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, February 25, 2012 03:46:32 PM Kirk Wallace did opine:

> On Sat, 2012-02-25 at 14:35 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> ... snip
> 
> > I did that, next time I log into the buffalo I'll check & see if that
> > fixes it, thanks.  I have sent dd-wrt and buffalo msgs about that.
> > That config line is about 2" longer than any other config line in the
> > gui and really should have been made into 2 shorter lines.
> 
> ... snip
> 
> I avoided dd-wrt early on due its proprietary nature. OpenWRT works
> great for me.

That concerned us when we got involved with it at the tv station quite a 
while back.  Jim did I think, fool around and get the X86 version to build 
once with gcc but it didn't work, but that isn't apparently what 
BrainSlayer uses to build it.

OTOH, he does give away that which he can under the GPL.  Some he cannot 
because the radio chip makers insist on a royalty.  Atheros was one such 
but very reasonably priced, still is I think because you have to pay to 
turn the radio on, and now broadcom have thrown code and specs over the 
fence, so that covers about half of whats actually shipped, a much improved 
situation.  Those chipset radios that are not open source friendly, you 
will note aren't supported by open-wrt either.  If they cannot reverse 
engineer it, no support, don't even ask.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
YOW!!!  I am having fun!!!

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Re: [Emc-users] Brass finish question?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, February 25, 2012 03:59:53 PM Jon Elson did opine:

> gene heskett wrote:
> > So I played with the code a little more and made another wheel
> > yesterday, then carved up a bracket to hold the pcb & got it mounted,
> > but I think the scope pix I took is too big to pass muster at the
> > server.  The wheel wound up with only 39 slots because that was about
> > the best quadrature timing I could get at the allowed diameter.  That
> > still gives a 2.25 degree resolution.  Shrinking that pix much below
> > 185k and the jpeg artifacts get plumb fugly.
> > 
> > It seems that when I switched from the hobby shop brass, to a slice
> > off the end of a brass door kickplate, the brass got easier to
> > machine.  Same .032" thickness.
> 
> Looks like you GOT IT!  The quadrature looks clean and 90 degrees,
> and 50% duty cycle.
> 
> Jon

That was the point I think. ;-)  There is one longer logic one pulse, I 
believe because if you look very carefully at the disk scan, the index slot 
which joins the inner end of the A/B slots, is about 2 thou wider & extends 
outward into the A/B slot real estate just enough that at least one of my 
opto's is seeing it, so the logic 1 state is stretched about 1/4" on the 
trace.  Just sort of flickers along on the bottom trace.  But if I shift 
that end of the assembly outwards 10 thou, I start getting A/B noise in the 
index signal.

I think there is enough of this project on my web page now at
 
to cut your own if so inclined.  I added a pair of via's adjacent to the G 
& 5 pads to mount a small tantalum bypass cap, but its looking like 7 feet 
or so of 4 wire flat cable may have a skosh too much signal edge crosstalk 
so I might have to wire it with a bundle of cheap audio cable for shielding 
when I put it to real use.  But if the creek don't get too high, we'll get 
there.  I've been trolling utube for ideas on where to put the motors on 
this toy.  I may wind up tossing the backsplash shield and putting the Y 
motor on the rear, or jacking it up a couple inches on the pan and hanging 
to so it moves back and forth under the bed & ways casting.  I have motors, 
but most are triple stack 425 oz/in=heavy.  Next down on the shelf is a bag 
of those 52 oz/in that H&R did sell, but I've no clue what amperage they 
would need.  What they have now ranges from .5 amp to 1.9 amp in that 
torgue range.  I have no clue if they would run the Y slide under load when 
geared 1/1.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Humor in the Court:
Q: Are you qualified to give a urine sample?
A: Yes, I have been since early childhood.

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