Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Hi Ray On Tuesday 14 August 2007 15:45, Ray Henry wrote: There was a heated discussion at that long ago FEST meeting in Ann Arbor when we created the EMC board. It was related to it's (us) becoming a legal entity. Outside of the USA, any entity would have little, if any power or status. It was my opinion, still is, that we need such an entity so that we can accept and use contributions to the central benefit of the project -- contributions of code, cash, or whatever. If you remember, part of the boards mandate was to act as an intermediatory to put interested parties in touch. e.g. Party A would offer hardware in exchange for suitable driver code. As for code contributions - Who decides what is good or bad ? I certainly respect the opinions of the others there that disagreed. In fact as a condition of the creation of a board we voted that it would not become a legal entity and it would not accept nor distribute funds. Setting up a legal entity would end up being a cash cow with little benefit for the majority - Who would audit the accounts, fund legal representation, or a whole other bunch of stuff... What those at the meeting did not know was that I had a couple thousand dollars in my pocket at that moment, Likewise, there is still quite a considerable sum of dollars from the proceeds of BDI disks available - Some has already been used to purchase IO cards from the likes of Adlink, the remainder could be used for similar purposes. I wonder if it isn't time to rethink the legal entity. If certain board members overstep their mandate, or fall back on a FU/O attitude to sidestep any issues/arguments, I doubt a legal entity would have any more credibility outside a gin house. Regards, Paul. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Rayh wrote: So the easy answer is we could work up some sort of survey but most of our users, once they get the kinks/configurations worked out for their machines are never heard from again. One solution would be to have EMC bug the user after so many hours of run time (or so many days after installation) with a message box: Hi! You have been using EMC for some time now, and the developers would like to know what you think of it - good or bad - as well as what your setup is, what you produce, and where you live in the world. This is completely voluntary, but it will help us improve EMC. Please send feedback to address. Don't direct feedback to one of the sf.net lists, as people must register. I remember a couple people who asked their questions elsewhere because they felt sf.net was a pain. Mark - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
--- Ray Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys. These posts bring to mind two long running thoughts, one directly related to EMC and one not quite so related. There was a heated discussion at that long ago FEST meeting in Ann Arbor when we created the EMC board. It was related to it's (us) becoming a legal entity. It was my opinion, still is, that we need such an entity so that we can accept and use contributions to the central benefit of the project -- contributions of code, cash, or whatever. I don't have a clue exactly how we would set up and prioritize cash or equipment worthy projects but many other open source projects have jumped that hurdle and are legal entities that accept and distribute cash. Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. I think non-profit would be better, otherwise ya pay a lot in taxes. Plus being un-sueable has its benefits. I can think of some things the money could be used for: -Defray travel costs for developers who must travel long distances to get to the fest. -Ensure all developers have at least a small machine and some tooling (It's much easier to program and debug when you have actual hardware and have hands-on knowledge of how it's used) -Buy relatively high-dollar items to aid developers (fourth axis, renishaw probe, DSO, etc) Second thought is connected to the idea of web mediated manufacturing. Yep someone would need to take the lead at least on a per product basis. That person would probably never make the kind of wages that a product coordinator (vice president) might make in a traditional business. Probably the leader of that first product would not make much at all on it. There is a lot of manufacturing ability among us. We've got folk who can handle everything from electronic and computational circuits to metal working to assembly, distribution, accounting, and product liability. I like this one! However, as others have mentioned, there are the problems of payment and shipping. Shipping things like chunks of steel can be expensive - this could eat up profits. Or if it's fragile - a precision part made of soft metal, a circuit board, etc - and someone at your favorite shipper drop-kicks it into a wall because it's marked fragile. (Yes, I know someone who says they saw co-workers do this at an airport!) It would certainly be helpful for people who are getting started and need something made - say motor mounts - that maybe isn't easy to machine manually. Or they need circuit boards. or This sounds like the way RepRap fabbers are expected to spread: Get the parts for your own, then once the machine is complete, make several copies of those parts and ship them to other people so they can build their own. Exponential growth, if everyone with a RepRap does it. Mark - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Hi Ben On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 04:09 +, ben lipkowitz wrote: I want to make sure people are aware that these _are_ two distinct ideas and that one is not reliant on the other. I think it would be a bad idea for the two to be directly associated as there will eventually be conflicts of interest between the two entities. This doesn't mean that they can't help each other out when it is mutually advantageous. Exactly and we don't want to lay any extra burdens on the board to keep track of some sort of manufacturing -- other than software systems. Rayh - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought-standards
I mean it's really hard to actually read it, once you've paid the $15k or so to actually get the documents. (You can get an idea by looking at the draft standards.) This is done so the people who wrote the standards get to keep their jobs as the people who read and explain the standards to you in plain english. As someone who writes standards, I have to disagree with this. It is extremely difficult to write standards, and the language comes from the need to say specific things in a general way that will be legally enforcable should the standard be adopted as law directly or by reference. Look at the NEC. In many places it refers to an ungrounded current carrying conductor, which in the vernacular is a hot. Problem is, hot is an ambiguous term that works fine in casual conversation but not in a standard. If you are trying to make a specific rule for all hots everywhere in the country you have to use generalized languge or it will not be enforceable. This brings up another point about forming a legal entitity. If EMC goes the non-profit route it would be better able to contribute to standards than individuals. Each standards making organization has it's own rules for participation, but most ANSI standards groups have a User interest category that often needs members. I have not looked into it in depth, and would be willing to if there is interest, but it is possible that EMC as an entity would be able to send a representative to the task group that maintains the G-code standard. That could have tremedous value. Thanks, Javid - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
ben lipkowitz wrote: We tried to make a map where the users could place a pin at their location, I don't know what has happened to it. what ever has happened to the map ( google map if I remember right ) that even had pic's of users equipment ? the map is here: http://www.frappr.com/emc2 Oh, great! Another example of MicroSoft-centric web thinking. So, we have a Linux-based project, but you can't view the map without extensive gyrations to install MicroSoft spoofing software! I have to hang upside down by my toes to get Flash Player 9 to run. (I can't find a version of flash player 8 anywhere.) Nope, can't get it to run under Firefox either, which has flash player 9 installed (but may not be working right). Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought (a reply to Javid)
On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 20:45 -0500, Javid Butler wrote: I have been meaning to ask you about who fabricates your pcb's. I need to have a few RS-422 transmitter and receiver boards made. Kirk- Can you elaborate on what you need? ...snip Anyway, please tell us more about what you need and I'll see if there's anything that fits. Thanks, Javid Thank you for the offer. I want to use RS-422 between my encoders and controller encoder inputs. A rough description of the receiver board is: ~2 inch square with mounting holes on each corner. Opposite edges would have .2 inch screw binding terminals with one side having +12 V, Gnd, A out, B out, I out. The other having 12 V out, Gnd, A+ in, A- in, B+ in, B- in, I+ in, I - in. Centrally mounted would be a DS26C32, TO-92 5 V regulator and capacitor(s). That's it. I would like to make them as generic as possible so that I could trow them in where needed. A major concern is that the board mounting and wire connections be rugged. The transmitter boards would be the same except using a DS26C31 and .1 inch connectors. The board could be single sided with surface mounted components. You can see a first pass of this board here in the fourth picture down: http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/ I don't have a CNC mill yet, so I can't mechanically etch the boards I need. Making a batch of these boards might be a good project to see how pooling resources works. Kirk Wallace - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
This could also be because Adobe havent released a 64bit version and the 32bit dosn't play nicely with any 64bit browsers. It has killed some things for me, but thats there loss Jason On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 21:56 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Wednesday 15 August 2007, Jon Elson wrote: ben lipkowitz wrote: We tried to make a map where the users could place a pin at their location, I don't know what has happened to it. what ever has happened to the map ( google map if I remember right ) that even had pic's of users equipment ? the map is here: http://www.frappr.com/emc2 Oh, great! Another example of MicroSoft-centric web thinking. So, we have a Linux-based project, but you can't view the map without extensive gyrations to install MicroSoft spoofing software! I have to hang upside down by my toes to get Flash Player 9 to run. (I can't find a version of flash player 8 anywhere.) Nope, can't get it to run under Firefox either, which has flash player 9 installed (but may not be working right). Jon Its working here Jon, on an uptodate FC6 box, FF-2.0.0.6. Some of the lower scrolling images are contaminated though. As to exactly what incantation I used to make it work, it was months back up the log I've NDI what I did after all this time. About all I can say for sure is that my flash came from adobe, it is not a fedora rpm. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Gene Heskett wrote: On Wednesday 15 August 2007, Jon Elson wrote: ben lipkowitz wrote: We tried to make a map where the users could place a pin at their location, I don't know what has happened to it. what ever has happened to the map ( google map if I remember right ) that even had pic's of users equipment ? the map is here: http://www.frappr.com/emc2 Oh, great! Another example of MicroSoft-centric web thinking. So, we have a Linux-based project, but you can't view the map without extensive gyrations to install MicroSoft spoofing software! I have to hang upside down by my toes to get Flash Player 9 to run. (I can't find a version of flash player 8 anywhere.) Nope, can't get it to run under Firefox either, which has flash player 9 installed (but may not be working right). Jon Its working here Jon, on an uptodate FC6 box, FF-2.0.0.6. Some of the lower scrolling images are contaminated though. Well, I have a very outdated kernel, and outdated software on top of it. And, it is a big mess to change, as I have a lot of special sofware like FlightGear and VMware on this system. Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
(lurk mode off) It might work, but coordinating that many people seems complicated. The best option is for you to decide to get started. Make something and sell it on ebay, and declare that a portion of the profits go to EMC after you cover your material and time. As you make progress towards your goal you'll meet your first obstacle and maybe someone here will help. I just got a bridgeport and am figuring out how to go about retrofiting. I'm a software engineer, and I'm building a hybrid car. See http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=3070 for a log, but I'm taking august off from the project due to other pressing needs. (resume lurk mode) Tom. On 8/13/07, Kirk Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An idea popped into my head today. I was thinking that one way people like me, that may not have the skills to contribute to the development of EMC might be able to contribute in another way. What if we came up with products that would promote the use of EMC such as Jog wheels, beginner's or lab kits (Etch CNC?) or whatever. People donate time with what they may be good at, to make drawings, g-code, machining or project management. Then the items get sold on eBay, with the proceeds going to EMC? Is it done that, didn't work, too much work or Why ? Just a thought. Kirk Wallace - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Hi guys. These posts bring to mind two long running thoughts, one directly related to EMC and one not quite so related. There was a heated discussion at that long ago FEST meeting in Ann Arbor when we created the EMC board. It was related to it's (us) becoming a legal entity. It was my opinion, still is, that we need such an entity so that we can accept and use contributions to the central benefit of the project -- contributions of code, cash, or whatever. I don't have a clue exactly how we would set up and prioritize cash or equipment worthy projects but many other open source projects have jumped that hurdle and are legal entities that accept and distribute cash. I certainly respect the opinions of the others there that disagreed. In fact as a condition of the creation of a board we voted that it would not become a legal entity and it would not accept nor distribute funds. In hindsight, I think that it might have gotten in the way if folk had followed by lead. What those at the meeting did not know was that I had a couple thousand dollars in my pocket at that moment, loaned to me by folk/companies who would have contributed it to the start up entity but required that I not say anything until the group decided to move in that direction. Over the years, folk have occasionally sent or passed me a bit of cash which I've used toward the project but always as I saw fit -- with the advice of a few of my friends. Matt and I have also mediated the loan of equipment for specific parts of the project. I wonder if it isn't time to rethink the legal entity. I'd be pleased to pass it the rights to linuxcnc.org, .net, and .com which I received from Dan Falck, and which expire about the time we elect a new board next year. I know for a fact that many folk contribute real dollars toward making parts of EMC work. Second thought is connected to the idea of web mediated manufacturing. Yep someone would need to take the lead at least on a per product basis. That person would probably never make the kind of wages that a product coordinator (vice president) might make in a traditional business. Probably the leader of that first product would not make much at all on it. There is a lot of manufacturing ability among us. We've got folk who can handle everything from electronic and computational circuits to metal working to assembly, distribution, accounting, and product liability. The nice thing about a web mediated manufacturing business is that it scales nicely. Let me use a couple of fictional names to illustrate. Pete takes on the task of milling the pendant housing after Bob draws it up and produces the NGC enabled g-code. If we sell more of them than Pete can make, Dave might jump in and use his mill a few hours a week. If Matt get's swamped with assembly perhaps Alex might pick up assembly for his part of the world. You get the idea. Please snip if you reply. Rayh On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 10:08 -0400, Tom Eberhard wrote: (lurk mode off) It might work, but coordinating that many people seems complicated. The best option is for you to decide to get started. Make something and sell it on ebay, and declare that a portion of the profits go to EMC after you cover your material and time. As you make progress towards your goal you'll meet your first obstacle and maybe someone here will help. I just got a bridgeport and am figuring out how to go about retrofiting. I'm a software engineer, and I'm building a hybrid car. See http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=3070 for a log, but I'm taking august off from the project due to other pressing needs. (resume lurk mode) Tom. On 8/13/07, Kirk Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An idea popped into my head today. I was thinking that one way people like me, that may not have the skills to contribute to the development of EMC might be able to contribute in another way. What if we came up with products that would promote the use of EMC such as Jog wheels, beginner's or lab kits (Etch CNC?) or whatever. People donate time with what they may be good at, to make drawings, g-code, machining or project management. Then the items get sold on eBay, with the proceeds going to EMC? Is it done that, didn't work, too much work or Why ? Just a thought. Kirk Wallace - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems?
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Ray Henry wrote: Second thought is connected to the idea of web mediated manufacturing. Yep someone would need to take the lead at least on a per product basis. That person would probably never make the kind of wages that a product coordinator (vice president) might make in a traditional business. Probably the leader of that first product would not make much at all on it. There is a lot of manufacturing ability among us. We've got folk who can handle everything from electronic and computational circuits to metal working to assembly, distribution, accounting, and product liability. The nice thing about a web mediated manufacturing business is that it scales nicely. Let me use a couple of fictional names to illustrate. Pete takes on the task of milling the pendant housing after Bob draws it up and produces the NGC enabled g-code. If we sell more of them than Pete can make, Dave might jump in and use his mill a few hours a week. If Matt get's swamped with assembly perhaps Alex might pick up assembly for his part of the world. You get the idea. Wow, this is interesting! I have a Bridgeport that sits a LOT of the time. That is no problem, because it is there when **I** need to make parts, but it is not really earning its keep other times. I also have a machinist friend who would be available to run it when I'm tied up. Now that I am finally up to date with EMC2, the compatibility issues are gone, too. I am pretty well set up to make equipment cabinets, too, so sheet metal setups are kind of a specialty here. I have a shear that mostly works and a finger brake, and a Roper-Whitney punch that i misuse as a notcher. I cut the flat blank for the box, notch the inside corners and then machine front, back, bottom, etc, then fold it, paint it (now working to move to powder coating). I also have a surface-mount pick and place machine running, and a thermocouple-controlled toaster oven for solder reflow. So, if someone has some little board they need assembled, like the pendant mentioned above, I could do that. I also have a high-end PCB design package (Protel 99) which I can use to design boards with high density components, multiple layers, etc. if needed. If any of this is of use to the EMC community, I'd be glad to make it available, as it is usually under-used. If somebody is working on a pendant project, I'd be real interested, too, as I've wanted to do one for some time. Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
On Tuesday 14 August 2007, Ray Henry wrote: Hi guys. These posts bring to mind two long running thoughts, one directly related to EMC and one not quite so related. There was a heated discussion at that long ago FEST meeting in Ann Arbor when we created the EMC board. It was related to it's (us) becoming a legal entity. It was my opinion, still is, that we need such an entity so that we can accept and use contributions to the central benefit of the project -- contributions of code, cash, or whatever. I don't have a clue exactly how we would set up and prioritize cash or equipment worthy projects but many other open source projects have jumped that hurdle and are legal entities that accept and distribute cash. I certainly respect the opinions of the others there that disagreed. In fact as a condition of the creation of a board we voted that it would not become a legal entity and it would not accept nor distribute funds. In hindsight, I think that it might have gotten in the way if folk had followed by lead. What those at the meeting did not know was that I had a couple thousand dollars in my pocket at that moment, loaned to me by folk/companies who would have contributed it to the start up entity but required that I not say anything until the group decided to move in that direction. Over the years, folk have occasionally sent or passed me a bit of cash which I've used toward the project but always as I saw fit -- with the advice of a few of my friends. Matt and I have also mediated the loan of equipment for specific parts of the project. I wonder if it isn't time to rethink the legal entity. I'd be pleased to pass it the rights to linuxcnc.org, .net, and .com which I received from Dan Falck, and which expire about the time we elect a new board next year. I know for a fact that many folk contribute real dollars toward making parts of EMC work. Second thought is connected to the idea of web mediated manufacturing. Yep someone would need to take the lead at least on a per product basis. That person would probably never make the kind of wages that a product coordinator (vice president) might make in a traditional business. Probably the leader of that first product would not make much at all on it. There is a lot of manufacturing ability among us. We've got folk who can handle everything from electronic and computational circuits to metal working to assembly, distribution, accounting, and product liability. The nice thing about a web mediated manufacturing business is that it scales nicely. Let me use a couple of fictional names to illustrate. Pete takes on the task of milling the pendant housing after Bob draws it up and produces the NGC enabled g-code. If we sell more of them than Pete can make, Dave might jump in and use his mill a few hours a week. If Matt get's swamped with assembly perhaps Alex might pick up assembly for his part of the world. You get the idea. Well Ray, I don't know if those in charge would think I'm qualified to even comment since I'm just an old fart user, but here goes my quarters worth (inflation you know). I'm reminded of the hooraw that was created, and some people actually left debian because they had the unmitigated gaul to actually want to pay for some much needed coding projects. In that case, I think personal jealousy's were unlocked that were best left sleeping. So that might be a possibility but I've certainly seen no such attitude displayed either here or on IRC. Being a legal entity might broaden the legal exposure, but again with very few exceptions, I've not seen the sorts of dumbassed actions admitted by the users here that were not also admitted as being that users fault. So I would tend to apply a large discount to such concerns. If all bugs were fixed as fast as the one I reported where the e-stop was disabled because an endless string of error pop-up boxes kept stealing the focus, I see no court on the planet (with any common sense that is) holding the legal entity responsible. It was fixed in what, 30 minutes after I reported it on IRC? I had it downloaded and built on my box in under an hour. There are also advantages, as have been noted above. On balance I'd vote gopherit. :) = I also like the web based production idea, but would it not be required that there was some sort of test be done to qualify that users machine setup as being able to do that from nothing but the gcode and the correct raw material? Also, who would then be the co-ordinating collection point for the shipment of the finished product, and in charge of equitable distribution of the monies generated? Detail, details... :-) -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) You will stop at nothing to reach your objective, but only because your brakes are defective.
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 11:54 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: ... snip I also have a surface-mount pick and place machine running, and a thermocouple-controlled toaster oven for solder reflow. So, if someone has some little board they need assembled, like the pendant mentioned above, I could do that. I also have a high-end PCB design package (Protel 99) which I can use to design boards with high density components, multiple layers, etc. if needed. If any of this is of use to the EMC community, I'd be glad to make it available, as it is usually under-used. If somebody is working on a pendant project, I'd be real interested, too, as I've wanted to do one for some time. Jon I have been meaning to ask you about who fabricates your pcb's. I need to have a few RS-422 transmitter and receiver boards made. I would think these would be a good open project. A wiki could be set up with the design, g-code, assembly procedure, etc. Anyone wishing to order a product could place an order on the wiki (opps, I think I mention eBay before) and then will be asked to make a donation when they receive their order. People wishing to contribute a resource, could go to the wiki and check the procedure list to see what procedures for what orders need to be done and who to coordinate with. If the the order doesn't get completed, no big deal. If it does, EMC wins. I would hope the frame work for the system could be fully automated so that users could drop in or out as they please. I have seen so many good ideas take off and then die because one or two people end up doing all the work and then burn out. Kirk Wallace - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 13:26 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: ... snip I also like the web based production idea, but would it not be required that there was some sort of test be done to qualify that users machine setup as being able to do that from nothing but the gcode and the correct raw material? Also, who would then be the co-ordinating collection point for the shipment of the finished product, and in charge of equitable distribution of the monies generated? Detail, details... :-) I could envision that the product would be created as a kit. Materials could be provided by the person requesting the product, the person making the part (preferably from their scrap bin) or donated from a third party. The parts would be shipped from each part builder at the donor's expense? Money would need to be collected by a treasurer, EMC's or other, and maybe distributed by the board? Would money actually help promote EMC? Maybe barter would be better. A developer needs something. Puts in a request for it on the wiki. Some one needing let's say,a control panel engraved agrees to send the something if some else agrees to engrave the panel. Maybe a want/got ad list would be good enough. I guess, to really address the question, you have to define the question. Does EMC need to be better? If so in what way? What are the possible solutions. Kirk Wallace - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Kirk Wallace wrote: Would money actually help promote EMC? Maybe barter would be better. A developer needs something. Puts in a request for it on the wiki. Some one needing let's say,a control panel engraved agrees to send the something if some else agrees to engrave the panel. Maybe a want/got ad list would be good enough. I guess, to really address the question, you have to define the question. Does EMC need to be better? If so in what way? What are the possible solutions. Money would promote EMC. However, like any other business deal your friends start to thin-out when $ become scarce. As far as promoting goes, these guys are doing a great job: http://www.fabathome.org/ However, I don't think their design or end product is what I am looking for. What I think your really getting at is; How do we help the EMC users/community with the skills we have? I like the barter idea, but I think it would benefit some more than others. I am a software/hardware engineer, so I don't have a lot of experience with machining, business, or trade. I got EMC running a small router/mill with-out any problems at all, just by reading the existing documentation. My router/mill would not be able to do much as far as commercial quality production: http://www.marion.us/dave/emcmill/index.html This is just a hobby for me right now, but it would be great to have experienced machinists provide a low cost service to the EMC community. Does EMC need to be better? From my software perspective, to answer that question we need something to compare... What does other software have that EMC does not? What would you like EMC to do? (Can this feature be accomplished with something EMC already has?) (Remember that feature-creep can kill a good project if not handled carefully.) I'm curious, do we have a way to know how many people are using EMC and for what purpose? Like a poll... As an engineer, I like to know that my project is being used, otherwise I start to loose interest. - Dave - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Hi Kirk I snipped your post and mixed in a couple of comments. On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 14:24 -0600, d06 wrote: s My router/mill would not be able to do much as far as commercial quality production: http://www.marion.us/dave/emcmill/index.html This is just a hobby for me right now, Nice job. I love it when a plan comes together. s I'm curious, do we have a way to know how many people are using EMC and for what purpose? Nope. Not that I know of. I've been around since the early days when I thought we could count the machines on two hands. Had to be two because Dan was running five machines at the same time. Permit me three brief stories. I had planned a trip to Europe so asked on the list hosted by NIST if I could visit a few users. I got offers from England to Russia and from Finland to Italy. We visited three and were impressed with the creativity. There may still be a copy of the email report around the archives someplace. On another post I was attempting to expound on the subject of EMC use and used the Czech Republic at a possible place where folk might be using it. My problem was that I misspelled the name. A fellow from there posted correcting my spelling and said he was using EMC on several old broken down Soviet mills. A third story arrived in an email years ago from a fellow in Italy who wrote no English and knew nobody to help him. There was only one sentence roughly scusilo che non parlo inglese. He sent a bunch of pictures of his router making wild looking rock guitars. He was doing all the work with EMC and showed several pictures of tkemc and the backplotter along with the parts. So the easy answer is we could work up some sort of survey but most of our users, once they get the kinks/configurations worked out for their machines are never heard from again. Rayh - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 13:26 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: s Well Ray, I don't know if those in charge would think I'm qualified to even comment since I'm just an old fart user, Oh yea. You have a keen mind for many of the user questions. s I also like the web based production idea, but would it not be required that there was some sort of test be done to qualify that users machine setup as being able to do that from nothing but the gcode and the correct raw material? Also, who would then be the co-ordinating collection point for the shipment of the finished product, and in charge of equitable distribution of the monies generated? Detail, details... :-) Yep. All good thinking. Thanks Rayh - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
I have been meaning to ask you about who fabricates your pcb's. I need to have a few RS-422 transmitter and receiver boards made. Kirk- Can you elaborate on what you need? I've got a wide variety of boards that use RS-422 or RS-485, from simple optical isolators to boards with various processing capabilities. Over the years many of them have been obsoleted or were designed for one-off jobs but the PCB house still has the art. If they can be used I'd be willing to contribute the designs. For example, a long time ago I did a board with a PIC16C74 processor and an RS-485 transceiver and a big jumper field for whatever other parts might be needed. The RS-485 transceiver can be jumpered to force it to transmit only, receiver only, or be under processor control. Anyway, please tell us more about what you need and I'll see if there's anything that fits. Thanks, Javid - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
I wonder if it isn't time to rethink the legal entity. It might work as a non-profit, something like a trade association. This would eliminate many of the legal risks, because the legal entity would not be directly producing anything but would rather be promoting the use of an open-source software. A lawyer would have to advise on the specific things that could and could not be done by this organization, but it would allow for fund raising to continue to develop and promote EMC. Second thought is connected to the idea of web mediated manufacturing. I'm in. Many others here probably have better CNC tooling that I do, but I have a batch reflow over for surface mount that is underutilzed. There's also a bunch of scrap/obsolete PCBs and some parts that are free or low cost to a good home. I've also got pile of idled projects that would work with this. If there are people out there with excess capacity, especially in sheet metal, there are some niche market opportunites out there. Thanks, Javid - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought - my two cents
On Tuesday 14 August 2007, Jarl Stefansson wrote: I would think about this long and hard before committing, having a legal entity opens up the possibility of getting sued in any number of countries where (software) patents are enforceable. Good point. As EMC becomes more popular I would imagine several big players in the industrial control market could drag us into courts and bankrupt the legal entity regardless of the case merits. Duh, does not EMC contain, due to its NIST history, more than sufficient prior art to quash most of those? An alternative might be to start a non-profit fund/foundation to promote future work on EMC which would not be legally responsible for actions of individual EMC developers. That's a bit less appetizing IMO. Jarl (dallur) [...] -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Does the name Pavlov ring a bell? - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
These posts bring to mind two long running thoughts, one directly related to EMC and one not quite so related. I want to make sure people are aware that these _are_ two distinct ideas and that one is not reliant on the other. I think it would be a bad idea for the two to be directly associated as there will eventually be conflicts of interest between the two entities. This doesn't mean that they can't help each other out when it is mutually advantageous. #1: an entity so that we can accept and use contributions to the central benefit of the project -- contributions of code, cash, or whatever. I think the board should decide if they want to form a fund/foundation or non-profit corporation, since they will be doing all of the work. (?) It is a fair amount of paperwork. The major goal here is to obtain a tax status for the EMC project - the board already serves the other functions. I dont think that distribution of money and hardware will be so very contentious as long as it is made clear from the start 1) whether said equipment is on loan from EMC and 2) whether a programmer is being paid to accomplish a specific task, with a bounty system for example. A bounty system would be useful for end-users in its own right. and entity #2: a web mediated [decentralized] manufacturing business This is huge, and whoever gets there first is going to stay the default for a long time, for better or worse. This is due to network effects which you can read about here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect There is an amazing series of articles which vividly describe what I imagine as an ideal open distributed manufacturing community, and the steps it would take to get such a thing running. If you are interested in this sort of thing you should read them too: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/free_matter_economy http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/free_matter_economy_2 ... http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/free_matter_economy_7 The biggest roadblock in this endeavor will probably be software compatibility. In order for our network to be useful to outsiders we have to be able to read the drawings they send to us. I spent a few weeks getting a feel for the feasibility of writing translation libraries for STEP/ISO-10303, the official CAD/CIM/everything exchange format. Unfortunately it seems that the perverse incentives inherent in the standards creation process make it extremely hard to read the documentation. I mean it's really hard to actually read it, once you've paid the $15k or so to actually get the documents. (You can get an idea by looking at the draft standards.) This is done so the people who wrote the standards get to keep their jobs as the people who read and explain the standards to you in plain english. There are some open source projects available such as NIST's expresso and express-engine which make it more like reverse engineering rather than reading legalese, and this should appeal to software developers. Maybe this should be moved into its own thread. -fenn - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
Kirk Wallace wrote: I have been meaning to ask you about who fabricates your pcb's. I need to have a few RS-422 transmitter and receiver boards made. I would think these would be a good open project. I use E-teknet in AZ mostly. They do all work in China, but have an office in the US. They have a dozen or more board shops in China that they select from to get the work done. Their quality is excellent, and when they say they tested the board, they did in fact do so. http://www.e-teknet.com/ (My #1 cardinal sin is to accept payment for electrical testing and then not do it. I don't want to have to find shorts in the board after all the parts are placed.) Advanced Circuits outside Denver is also very good, but a bit expensive. Overnite protos http://www.pcborder.com/site_new/default.asp is also good for very small orders. This is another outfit I've done a few boards with http://www.pcbfabexpress.com/ Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 23:24 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: We tried to make a map where the users could place a pin at their location, I don't know what has happened to it. what ever has happened to the map ( google map if I remember right ) that even had pic's of users equipment ? Jason - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Just a Thought
We tried to make a map where the users could place a pin at their location, I don't know what has happened to it. what ever has happened to the map ( google map if I remember right ) that even had pic's of users equipment ? the map is here: http://www.frappr.com/emc2 - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
