Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Todd Zuercher]

Bringing back an older thread.  Went to start ordering the things I need for 
the update and noticed that the conduit to the machine isn't big enough for the 
new wiring.  Right now the 9 single phase circuits are run through two 3/4" 
conduits (4 in one 5 in the other).  would it be a really bad idea or against 
regs, to split the 3ph wiring between the 2 conduits? (2+ground in one and 
1+nutral in the other)

- Original Message -
From: "Gregg Eshelman" <g_ala...@yahoo.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 6:10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

On 2/6/2016 3:23 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Make sure whatever you do that you have a way to lock out the main
> breaker in the off position.
> Osha wants to see that and it makes good sense.   Make sure you also
> have a couple of red "lock out padlocks" around also.  Keep one with
> your tools.
> I had a guy come up to me and ask what I was doing just as I was packing
> up my things after servicing a machine at a manufacturing plant.
> The idiot who was with him ( a plant management person ) failed to
> mention that he was an Osha enforcement guy so I explained what I had
> done and then the Osha guy introduced himself.
> He asked if I lockout the machines I work on and I just pointed at my
> lock hanging on my tool bag strap and said, there's my lock. The truth
> is that the machines are impossible to debug with the power off.  But
> that doesn't matter, as they will happily fine you regardless.The
> fines normally start with 4 digit numbers.
> I don't visit that plant much any longer.   They now ship the machines
> to another location so they can be serviced.   Their safety "rules" are
> so difficult to deal with that it makes no sense to try and do work in
> that plant.   For the same reason they can't keep any decent engineers
> or technicians at that location. I predict the plant will be closing
> within the next 5 years. The plant machinery will probably end up in
> Mexico.
> I'm all for being safe since it is my butt that is on the line, but
> there is a level of common sense that must be used.
>
> Osha and some plants seem to forget that from time to time.

On some other forum I read a post by a person who used to work in a shop 
when a new CNC machining center was installed.

 From where the controls were, it was impossible to see the tools to jog 
them into position if the door was closed. Open the door and nothing 
could be moved.

The fix was a wedge someone made to jimmy the door sensor so the 
operator could see into the machine when jogging it. It could be quickly 
removed if an inspector showed up.

That's what happens when a machine is so over-saftied, it forces 
operators to disable safety systems in order to make it usable. How it 
should have been built is either with the controls mounted so that the 
operator could see into the work space while standing at them, or the 
door safety should only have locked out the spindle and turret 
rotations, while limiting axis travel to slow speeds. That would have 
made setting up quicker and safe. Select the tool, open door and set 
position. Close door and select next tool. Repeat until all tools are set.


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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Todd Zuercher]

Thanks for the advise guys, I won't do it.

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Elson" <el...@pico-systems.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 9:12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

On 03/16/2016 12:26 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Bringing back an older thread.  Went to start ordering the things I need for 
> the update and noticed that the conduit to the machine isn't big enough for 
> the new wiring.  Right now the 9 single phase circuits are run through two 
> 3/4" conduits (4 in one 5 in the other).  would it be a really bad idea or 
> against regs, to split the 3ph wiring between the 2 conduits? (2+ground in 
> one and 1+nutral in the other)
>
>
You are supposed to have all current carrying conductors in 
one conduit.  Unbalanced currents induce currents in the 
conduit, which is not a great conductor (steel) so it gets 
hot.  So, running two phases in one conduit and the 
remaining phase and neutral in the other is frowned upon.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Dave Cole]

I'm not sure if it is against code or not (I would be surprised if it is 
not),  but I would run some new conduit.
Separating phases like that is a really bad idea and conduit is really 
cheap.

Dave

On 3/16/2016 12:26 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Bringing back an older thread.  Went to start ordering the things I need for 
> the update and noticed that the conduit to the machine isn't big enough for 
> the new wiring.  Right now the 9 single phase circuits are run through two 
> 3/4" conduits (4 in one 5 in the other).  would it be a really bad idea or 
> against regs, to split the 3ph wiring between the 2 conduits? (2+ground in 
> one and 1+nutral in the other)
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Gregg Eshelman" <g_ala...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 6:10:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?
>
> On 2/6/2016 3:23 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Make sure whatever you do that you have a way to lock out the main
>> breaker in the off position.
>> Osha wants to see that and it makes good sense.   Make sure you also
>> have a couple of red "lock out padlocks" around also.  Keep one with
>> your tools.
>> I had a guy come up to me and ask what I was doing just as I was packing
>> up my things after servicing a machine at a manufacturing plant.
>> The idiot who was with him ( a plant management person ) failed to
>> mention that he was an Osha enforcement guy so I explained what I had
>> done and then the Osha guy introduced himself.
>> He asked if I lockout the machines I work on and I just pointed at my
>> lock hanging on my tool bag strap and said, there's my lock. The truth
>> is that the machines are impossible to debug with the power off.  But
>> that doesn't matter, as they will happily fine you regardless.The
>> fines normally start with 4 digit numbers.
>> I don't visit that plant much any longer.   They now ship the machines
>> to another location so they can be serviced.   Their safety "rules" are
>> so difficult to deal with that it makes no sense to try and do work in
>> that plant.   For the same reason they can't keep any decent engineers
>> or technicians at that location. I predict the plant will be closing
>> within the next 5 years. The plant machinery will probably end up in
>> Mexico.
>> I'm all for being safe since it is my butt that is on the line, but
>> there is a level of common sense that must be used.
>>
>> Osha and some plants seem to forget that from time to time.
> On some other forum I read a post by a person who used to work in a shop
> when a new CNC machining center was installed.
>
>   From where the controls were, it was impossible to see the tools to jog
> them into position if the door was closed. Open the door and nothing
> could be moved.
>
> The fix was a wedge someone made to jimmy the door sensor so the
> operator could see into the machine when jogging it. It could be quickly
> removed if an inspector showed up.
>
> That's what happens when a machine is so over-saftied, it forces
> operators to disable safety systems in order to make it usable. How it
> should have been built is either with the controls mounted so that the
> operator could see into the work space while standing at them, or the
> door safety should only have locked out the spindle and turret
> rotations, while limiting axis travel to slow speeds. That would have
> made setting up quicker and safe. Select the tool, open door and set
> position. Close door and select next tool. Repeat until all tools are set.
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Jerry Scharf]

Todd,

I always think about the next person who has to look at my wiring. Doing
this would confuse the hell out of me if I came upon it. I might even send
unkind thoughts toward the last person and then fix the wires to be right.

Why not pull back and reroute some of the single phase wires to make space
for all the three phase wires in one conduit? When I spec down time for the
work, I just include all these tsks in the estimate.

jerry


On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Todd Zuercher <zuerc...@embarqmail.com>
wrote:

> Bringing back an older thread.  Went to start ordering the things I need
> for the update and noticed that the conduit to the machine isn't big enough
> for the new wiring.  Right now the 9 single phase circuits are run through
> two 3/4" conduits (4 in one 5 in the other).  would it be a really bad idea
> or against regs, to split the 3ph wiring between the 2 conduits? (2+ground
> in one and 1+nutral in the other)
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Gregg Eshelman" <g_ala...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 6:10:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?
>
> On 2/6/2016 3:23 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> > Make sure whatever you do that you have a way to lock out the main
> > breaker in the off position.
> > Osha wants to see that and it makes good sense.   Make sure you also
> > have a couple of red "lock out padlocks" around also.  Keep one with
> > your tools.
> > I had a guy come up to me and ask what I was doing just as I was packing
> > up my things after servicing a machine at a manufacturing plant.
> > The idiot who was with him ( a plant management person ) failed to
> > mention that he was an Osha enforcement guy so I explained what I had
> > done and then the Osha guy introduced himself.
> > He asked if I lockout the machines I work on and I just pointed at my
> > lock hanging on my tool bag strap and said, there's my lock. The truth
> > is that the machines are impossible to debug with the power off.  But
> > that doesn't matter, as they will happily fine you regardless.The
> > fines normally start with 4 digit numbers.
> > I don't visit that plant much any longer.   They now ship the machines
> > to another location so they can be serviced.   Their safety "rules" are
> > so difficult to deal with that it makes no sense to try and do work in
> > that plant.   For the same reason they can't keep any decent engineers
> > or technicians at that location. I predict the plant will be closing
> > within the next 5 years. The plant machinery will probably end up in
> > Mexico.
> > I'm all for being safe since it is my butt that is on the line, but
> > there is a level of common sense that must be used.
> >
> > Osha and some plants seem to forget that from time to time.
>
> On some other forum I read a post by a person who used to work in a shop
> when a new CNC machining center was installed.
>
>  From where the controls were, it was impossible to see the tools to jog
> them into position if the door was closed. Open the door and nothing
> could be moved.
>
> The fix was a wedge someone made to jimmy the door sensor so the
> operator could see into the machine when jogging it. It could be quickly
> removed if an inspector showed up.
>
> That's what happens when a machine is so over-saftied, it forces
> operators to disable safety systems in order to make it usable. How it
> should have been built is either with the controls mounted so that the
> operator could see into the work space while standing at them, or the
> door safety should only have locked out the spindle and turret
> rotations, while limiting axis travel to slow speeds. That would have
> made setting up quicker and safe. Select the tool, open door and set
> position. Close door and select next tool. Repeat until all tools are set.
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Jon Elson]

On 03/16/2016 12:26 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Bringing back an older thread.  Went to start ordering the things I need for 
> the update and noticed that the conduit to the machine isn't big enough for 
> the new wiring.  Right now the 9 single phase circuits are run through two 
> 3/4" conduits (4 in one 5 in the other).  would it be a really bad idea or 
> against regs, to split the 3ph wiring between the 2 conduits? (2+ground in 
> one and 1+nutral in the other)
>
>
You are supposed to have all current carrying conductors in 
one conduit.  Unbalanced currents induce currents in the 
conduit, which is not a great conductor (steel) so it gets 
hot.  So, running two phases in one conduit and the 
remaining phase and neutral in the other is frowned upon.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[John Kasunich]

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016, at 01:26 PM, Todd  Zuercher wrote:
> Bringing back an older thread.  Went to start ordering the things I need for 
> the update and noticed that the conduit to the machine isn't big enough for 
> the new wiring.  Right now the 9 single phase circuits are run through two 
> 3/4" conduits (4 in one 5 in the other).  would it be a really bad idea or 
> against regs, to split the 3ph wiring between the 2 conduits? (2+ground in 
> one and 1+nutral in the other)
> 


Don't do it.

Whenever you have a wire taking current to a load, the 
return path(s) for that load need to be in the same conduit.
That means all three phases of a three-phase load, or phase
and neutral for a single-phase load.

The reason for this is that if both (single phase) or all three
(three phase) wires are in the same conduit, the net current
is zero and thus the magnetic field around the bundle of wires
is zero

If you don't have all the wires in one conduit, there is a net
magnetic field, and it can induce circulating currents in the
conduit.  Even without conduit (or with plastic conduit), if
you have un-matched cables running through holes in a
steel enclosure wall you can induce eddy currents in the
wall.

At modest current levels you can get away with it, but it is
bad practice.  At high current levels the induced currents 
generate heat, and you can melt things.

Regarding grounds - codes usually require that ground wires
run in the same current as the load carrying wires.  Putting 
the ground in another conduit adds inductance (due to the 
loop area formed, and aggravated if the conduit is steel).  
That inductance increases voltage drop and makes the
ground less effective in the event of a short to ground at
the load.



-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 2/6/2016 3:23 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Make sure whatever you do that you have a way to lock out the main
> breaker in the off position.
> Osha wants to see that and it makes good sense.   Make sure you also
> have a couple of red "lock out padlocks" around also.  Keep one with
> your tools.
> I had a guy come up to me and ask what I was doing just as I was packing
> up my things after servicing a machine at a manufacturing plant.
> The idiot who was with him ( a plant management person ) failed to
> mention that he was an Osha enforcement guy so I explained what I had
> done and then the Osha guy introduced himself.
> He asked if I lockout the machines I work on and I just pointed at my
> lock hanging on my tool bag strap and said, there's my lock. The truth
> is that the machines are impossible to debug with the power off.  But
> that doesn't matter, as they will happily fine you regardless.The
> fines normally start with 4 digit numbers.
> I don't visit that plant much any longer.   They now ship the machines
> to another location so they can be serviced.   Their safety "rules" are
> so difficult to deal with that it makes no sense to try and do work in
> that plant.   For the same reason they can't keep any decent engineers
> or technicians at that location. I predict the plant will be closing
> within the next 5 years. The plant machinery will probably end up in
> Mexico.
> I'm all for being safe since it is my butt that is on the line, but
> there is a level of common sense that must be used.
>
> Osha and some plants seem to forget that from time to time.

On some other forum I read a post by a person who used to work in a shop 
when a new CNC machining center was installed.

 From where the controls were, it was impossible to see the tools to jog 
them into position if the door was closed. Open the door and nothing 
could be moved.

The fix was a wedge someone made to jimmy the door sensor so the 
operator could see into the machine when jogging it. It could be quickly 
removed if an inspector showed up.

That's what happens when a machine is so over-saftied, it forces 
operators to disable safety systems in order to make it usable. How it 
should have been built is either with the controls mounted so that the 
operator could see into the work space while standing at them, or the 
door safety should only have locked out the spindle and turret 
rotations, while limiting axis travel to slow speeds. That would have 
made setting up quicker and safe. Select the tool, open door and set 
position. Close door and select next tool. Repeat until all tools are set.


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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Dave Cole]

Make sure whatever you do that you have a way to lock out the main 
breaker in the off position.
Osha wants to see that and it makes good sense.   Make sure you also 
have a couple of red "lock out padlocks" around also.  Keep one with 
your tools.
I had a guy come up to me and ask what I was doing just as I was packing 
up my things after servicing a machine at a manufacturing plant.
The idiot who was with him ( a plant management person ) failed to 
mention that he was an Osha enforcement guy so I explained what I had 
done and then the Osha guy introduced himself.
He asked if I lockout the machines I work on and I just pointed at my 
lock hanging on my tool bag strap and said, there's my lock. The truth 
is that the machines are impossible to debug with the power off.  But 
that doesn't matter, as they will happily fine you regardless.The 
fines normally start with 4 digit numbers.
I don't visit that plant much any longer.   They now ship the machines 
to another location so they can be serviced.   Their safety "rules" are 
so difficult to deal with that it makes no sense to try and do work in 
that plant.   For the same reason they can't keep any decent engineers 
or technicians at that location. I predict the plant will be closing 
within the next 5 years. The plant machinery will probably end up in 
Mexico.
I'm all for being safe since it is my butt that is on the line, but 
there is a level of common sense that must be used.

Osha and some plants seem to forget that from time to time.

Dave


On 2/6/2016 2:39 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> It's really not nearly as interesting as it sounds.  It start out as a 2 
> spindle Digital Tool CNC Router.  Eventually both spindles were replaced with 
> 3 Porter Cable Routers, inelegantly mounted to the W and Z axis.  It is a 
> major pain to change tooling on (each of the 3 tools on each vertical axis 
> have to be set to precisely the same depth, with the only adjustment being 
> how far the tool is inserted into the collet.  Replaceable insert tip 
> engraving tooling has been a god send for this machine.  I used to spend a 
> couple hours every 2-3 days changing tools on that pos.  The overloaded 
> bearings and ways on W, Z and X axis don't hold up very well and I have to 
> overhaul the thing periodically.
>
> Our 3phase is not the wild leg variety.  The new 3ph breaker will be 
> replacing 3 of the 9 old 110 breakers in one of our LV main panels.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 2:54:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?
>
> On Friday 05 February 2016 23:22:35 Dave Cole wrote:
>
>> I'm familiar with Hill Billy engineering..
>>
>> Be careful when taking single phase off 3 phase.   Phase to neutral is
>> what you want of course, but if you somehow make a wiring mistake (or
>> they did in the past), you can easily get line to line voltage in a
>> place you don't want it to be.The result can be large amounts of
>> smoke and some fire!  Don't ask how I know this...  :-/
>>
>> Dave
> In my old home stomping grounds of central Iowa, we called that Shade
> Tree Mechanicing.  6 of one, half a dozen of the other. :)
>
> But in splitting off a 3 phase circuit, I'd sure want to be assured it
> wasn't setup by the power folks as a "wild leg" circuit that was popular
> 65 years ago. The only fix for that, that is IMO correct, is a delta
> primary, 1/1 ratio but wye secondary isolation transformer of suitable
> kilowatt rating.  And just to be a jerk about it, I'd sue to put it in
> front of the electrical metering, making the power company absorb the 3
> to 5% loses in such a setup.
>
>> On 2/5/2016 11:09 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
>>> This is the last of our old grandfathered in hill billy engineer
>>> machines that I have to bring into the modern era.  Adding an e-stop
>>> system is in the plan as well.  I am still amazed that the
>>> electrical contractor who installed the machine when we moved to the
>>> new shop in 2008 agreed to put it in this way.
>>>
>>> My plan was to put in a new panel with a disconnect and feed it with
>>> a 40amp 3-phase breaker from the main panel.  Then from the
>>> disconnect split it off into 9 single phase breakers.  There already
>>> are contactors and such in the control system, adding the e-stop
>>> loop will be very easy.
> Sounds like an interesting machine.  I know where there is an 8 spindle
> machine, at a split rail fenceing maker, but I believe that one has just
> 2 motors, one for each 4 spindles.  It does the rail holes in the
> fenceposts, doing the 3 holes each in a 3 rail 

Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Todd Zuercher]

It's really not nearly as interesting as it sounds.  It start out as a 2 
spindle Digital Tool CNC Router.  Eventually both spindles were replaced with 3 
Porter Cable Routers, inelegantly mounted to the W and Z axis.  It is a major 
pain to change tooling on (each of the 3 tools on each vertical axis have to be 
set to precisely the same depth, with the only adjustment being how far the 
tool is inserted into the collet.  Replaceable insert tip engraving tooling has 
been a god send for this machine.  I used to spend a couple hours every 2-3 
days changing tools on that pos.  The overloaded bearings and ways on W, Z and 
X axis don't hold up very well and I have to overhaul the thing periodically.

Our 3phase is not the wild leg variety.  The new 3ph breaker will be replacing 
3 of the 9 old 110 breakers in one of our LV main panels.

- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 2:54:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

On Friday 05 February 2016 23:22:35 Dave Cole wrote:

> I'm familiar with Hill Billy engineering..
>
> Be careful when taking single phase off 3 phase.   Phase to neutral is
> what you want of course, but if you somehow make a wiring mistake (or
> they did in the past), you can easily get line to line voltage in a
> place you don't want it to be.The result can be large amounts of
> smoke and some fire!  Don't ask how I know this...  :-/
>
> Dave

In my old home stomping grounds of central Iowa, we called that Shade 
Tree Mechanicing.  6 of one, half a dozen of the other. :)

But in splitting off a 3 phase circuit, I'd sure want to be assured it 
wasn't setup by the power folks as a "wild leg" circuit that was popular 
65 years ago. The only fix for that, that is IMO correct, is a delta 
primary, 1/1 ratio but wye secondary isolation transformer of suitable 
kilowatt rating.  And just to be a jerk about it, I'd sue to put it in 
front of the electrical metering, making the power company absorb the 3 
to 5% loses in such a setup.

> On 2/5/2016 11:09 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > This is the last of our old grandfathered in hill billy engineer
> > machines that I have to bring into the modern era.  Adding an e-stop
> > system is in the plan as well.  I am still amazed that the
> > electrical contractor who installed the machine when we moved to the
> > new shop in 2008 agreed to put it in this way.
> >
> > My plan was to put in a new panel with a disconnect and feed it with
> > a 40amp 3-phase breaker from the main panel.  Then from the
> > disconnect split it off into 9 single phase breakers.  There already
> > are contactors and such in the control system, adding the e-stop
> > loop will be very easy.

Sounds like an interesting machine.  I know where there is an 8 spindle 
machine, at a split rail fenceing maker, but I believe that one has just 
2 motors, one for each 4 spindles.  It does the rail holes in the  
fenceposts, doing the 3 holes each in a 3 rail fencepost, in 8 posts at 
once in about 2 minutes, not counting the load/unload time.

By brute force, I don't think the tooling has been sharpened in a decade.  
So the holes are ragged & splintery, but its still (shrug) a usable 
hole.  Probably have 20 such posts wrapped around my place.  But the 
original installer spaced them about 2 feet closer together than std, so 
when I have to replace a rotted rail, I have to saw off a couple feet of 
one of those rails, and get out my electric hand plane to put a new 
taper on the end of the rail.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 05 February 2016 23:22:35 Dave Cole wrote:

> I'm familiar with Hill Billy engineering..
>
> Be careful when taking single phase off 3 phase.   Phase to neutral is
> what you want of course, but if you somehow make a wiring mistake (or
> they did in the past), you can easily get line to line voltage in a
> place you don't want it to be.The result can be large amounts of
> smoke and some fire!  Don't ask how I know this...  :-/
>
> Dave

In my old home stomping grounds of central Iowa, we called that Shade 
Tree Mechanicing.  6 of one, half a dozen of the other. :)

But in splitting off a 3 phase circuit, I'd sure want to be assured it 
wasn't setup by the power folks as a "wild leg" circuit that was popular 
65 years ago. The only fix for that, that is IMO correct, is a delta 
primary, 1/1 ratio but wye secondary isolation transformer of suitable 
kilowatt rating.  And just to be a jerk about it, I'd sue to put it in 
front of the electrical metering, making the power company absorb the 3 
to 5% loses in such a setup.

> On 2/5/2016 11:09 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > This is the last of our old grandfathered in hill billy engineer
> > machines that I have to bring into the modern era.  Adding an e-stop
> > system is in the plan as well.  I am still amazed that the
> > electrical contractor who installed the machine when we moved to the
> > new shop in 2008 agreed to put it in this way.
> >
> > My plan was to put in a new panel with a disconnect and feed it with
> > a 40amp 3-phase breaker from the main panel.  Then from the
> > disconnect split it off into 9 single phase breakers.  There already
> > are contactors and such in the control system, adding the e-stop
> > loop will be very easy.

Sounds like an interesting machine.  I know where there is an 8 spindle 
machine, at a split rail fenceing maker, but I believe that one has just 
2 motors, one for each 4 spindles.  It does the rail holes in the  
fenceposts, doing the 3 holes each in a 3 rail fencepost, in 8 posts at 
once in about 2 minutes, not counting the load/unload time.

By brute force, I don't think the tooling has been sharpened in a decade.  
So the holes are ragged & splintery, but its still (shrug) a usable 
hole.  Probably have 20 such posts wrapped around my place.  But the 
original installer spaced them about 2 feet closer together than std, so 
when I have to replace a rotted rail, I have to saw off a couple feet of 
one of those rails, and get out my electric hand plane to put a new 
taper on the end of the rail.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[andy pugh]

On 5 February 2016 at 22:22, Todd  Zuercher
 wrote:

> It is a gang router (didn't start out as one), and is connected to 9 
> different single phase 110v breakers. One for each of the six 15amp routers 
> plus 3 more for the control, and motion. (that stuff totals at most another 
> 15amps.)

I am not familiar with your local regs. I am not even qualified to
wire to my own local regs but:

One machine should have one power cord. The upstream breaker should be
sized for that power cord (or, conversely, that power cord should
match the breaker).
If for no other reason than to make it very clear that the machine is
off before working on it.

Then, internal to the machine, you should have power distribution and
thermal/overload trips for each spindle.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Moses McKnight]

This may sound simplistic, but mount a control box on the machine with and main 
disconnect and breakers in it, and just one set of larger wires out to the main 
power box.  The control box could even just be a breaker box.

On 02/05/2016 04:22 PM, Todd  Zuercher wrote:
> We have an old machine that through the years has become an ungainly ball of 
> wires. Currently with OSHA regs and all lockout tagout is a real pain as it 
> is on this machine.
>
> It is a gang router (didn't start out as one), and is connected to 9 
> different single phase 110v breakers. One for each of the six 15amp routers 
> plus 3 more for the control, and motion. (that stuff totals at most another 
> 15amps.)
>
> Any suggestions for slimming this down so it could run off one set of wires 
> with a single disconnect at the machine?
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Dave Cole]

Todd,

If you have multiple single phase breakers feeding that machine, that is 
probably not your only issue when it comes to Osha.

You need a decent Estop system on the machine also which means at the 
least one or more Estop circuits and some contactors to drop out the 
power, or more appropriately, bring the machine to a speedy, yet safe 
stop.   Lock out - tag out is only one of Osha's "hot buttons".

You need a real control box or you need to adapt an existing control 
box.  You can add a disconnect switch to an existing panel easy enough, 
but you also need downstream breakers from the disconnect as well as 
contactors.

Dave



On 2/5/2016 5:22 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> We have an old machine that through the years has become an ungainly ball of 
> wires. Currently with OSHA regs and all lockout tagout is a real pain as it 
> is on this machine.
>
> It is a gang router (didn't start out as one), and is connected to 9 
> different single phase 110v breakers. One for each of the six 15amp routers 
> plus 3 more for the control, and motion. (that stuff totals at most another 
> 15amps.)
>
> Any suggestions for slimming this down so it could run off one set of wires 
> with a single disconnect at the machine?
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Jerry Scharf]

Todd,

I would get a larger box to hold much of the controls, then put a 12
location load center with 15 amp breakers in it. Then mount a single
disconnect box next to the control box and run a small piece of conduit
between them. One place to lock out, all the wiring is now centralized and
organized and you have all the correct protection. You even have some extra
space for future growth.

jerry


On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Todd Zuercher 
wrote:

> We have an old machine that through the years has become an ungainly ball
> of wires. Currently with OSHA regs and all lockout tagout is a real pain as
> it is on this machine.
>
> It is a gang router (didn't start out as one), and is connected to 9
> different single phase 110v breakers. One for each of the six 15amp routers
> plus 3 more for the control, and motion. (that stuff totals at most another
> 15amps.)
>
> Any suggestions for slimming this down so it could run off one set of
> wires with a single disconnect at the machine?
>
> --
>
> 
>
> Todd Zuercher
> mailto:zuerc...@embarqmail.com
>
> 
>
> --
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>



-- 
Jerry Scharf
FINsix IT
650.285.6361 w
650.279.7017 m
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Todd Zuercher]

This is the last of our old grandfathered in hill billy engineer machines that 
I have to bring into the modern era.  Adding an e-stop system is in the plan as 
well.  I am still amazed that the electrical contractor who installed the 
machine when we moved to the new shop in 2008 agreed to put it in this way.

My plan was to put in a new panel with a disconnect and feed it with a 40amp 
3-phase breaker from the main panel.  Then from the disconnect split it off 
into 9 single phase breakers.  There already are contactors and such in the 
control system, adding the e-stop loop will be very easy.

- Original Message -
From: "Dave Cole" <linuxcncro...@gmail.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 10:30:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

Todd,

If you have multiple single phase breakers feeding that machine, that is 
probably not your only issue when it comes to Osha.

You need a decent Estop system on the machine also which means at the 
least one or more Estop circuits and some contactors to drop out the 
power, or more appropriately, bring the machine to a speedy, yet safe 
stop.   Lock out - tag out is only one of Osha's "hot buttons".

You need a real control box or you need to adapt an existing control 
box.  You can add a disconnect switch to an existing panel easy enough, 
but you also need downstream breakers from the disconnect as well as 
contactors.

Dave



On 2/5/2016 5:22 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> We have an old machine that through the years has become an ungainly ball of 
> wires. Currently with OSHA regs and all lockout tagout is a real pain as it 
> is on this machine.
>
> It is a gang router (didn't start out as one), and is connected to 9 
> different single phase 110v breakers. One for each of the six 15amp routers 
> plus 3 more for the control, and motion. (that stuff totals at most another 
> 15amps.)
>
> Any suggestions for slimming this down so it could run off one set of wires 
> with a single disconnect at the machine?
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Dave Cole]

I'm familiar with Hill Billy engineering..

Be careful when taking single phase off 3 phase.   Phase to neutral is 
what you want of course, but if you somehow make a wiring mistake (or 
they did in the past), you can easily get line to line voltage in a 
place you don't want it to be.The result can be large amounts of 
smoke and some fire!  Don't ask how I know this...  :-/

Dave

On 2/5/2016 11:09 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> This is the last of our old grandfathered in hill billy engineer machines 
> that I have to bring into the modern era.  Adding an e-stop system is in the 
> plan as well.  I am still amazed that the electrical contractor who installed 
> the machine when we moved to the new shop in 2008 agreed to put it in this 
> way.
>
> My plan was to put in a new panel with a disconnect and feed it with a 40amp 
> 3-phase breaker from the main panel.  Then from the disconnect split it off 
> into 9 single phase breakers.  There already are contactors and such in the 
> control system, adding the e-stop loop will be very easy.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dave Cole" <linuxcncro...@gmail.com>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 10:30:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?
>
> Todd,
>
> If you have multiple single phase breakers feeding that machine, that is
> probably not your only issue when it comes to Osha.
>
> You need a decent Estop system on the machine also which means at the
> least one or more Estop circuits and some contactors to drop out the
> power, or more appropriately, bring the machine to a speedy, yet safe
> stop.   Lock out - tag out is only one of Osha's "hot buttons".
>
> You need a real control box or you need to adapt an existing control
> box.  You can add a disconnect switch to an existing panel easy enough,
> but you also need downstream breakers from the disconnect as well as
> contactors.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On 2/5/2016 5:22 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
>> We have an old machine that through the years has become an ungainly ball of 
>> wires. Currently with OSHA regs and all lockout tagout is a real pain as it 
>> is on this machine.
>>
>> It is a gang router (didn't start out as one), and is connected to 9 
>> different single phase 110v breakers. One for each of the six 15amp routers 
>> plus 3 more for the control, and motion. (that stuff totals at most another 
>> 15amps.)
>>
>> Any suggestions for slimming this down so it could run off one set of wires 
>> with a single disconnect at the machine?
>>
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