Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-13 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 12 January 2017 22:06:23 Gene Heskett wrote:

[snip pages of history]

> I have it running fairly noise free today, and had no such problems.
> However it appears that I may have blown the #0 stepgen, as data is
> going in, its enabled, but nothing is coming out of other either pin
> 1-1 (step) or pin 1-3 (dir). So I added another one in the config, and
> will re-configure the hal file to use it for the X axis. Where I'm
> working on the back side of this is just a hair crowded, and more than
> 10 times my clothing has rubbed on the 2" of blue styro glued to the
> inside of the garage door, giving be a weak, just enough to make me
> aware of it shock when I touched the machine for the first time after
> walking around to the back of it.

And in the middle of this, with the X driver not yet connected to 
stepgen#2, the noise is back, with a vengeance.

I have done everything I can to reduce the noise in terms of a central 
single point ground. So I just broke down and bought an assortment of 
clamp-on ferrite chokes. I have now rigged up the minmax module, 
watching the encoder velocity times 60 so I get rpms, and rigged the 
flood button to serve as a thru or freeze the mins and maxes. Even with 
the spindle stopped, it takes less than 10 seconds to record rpms in 
the - and + territory ranging from -25 to + readings that force the 
halmeter into scientific notation, by +13 for the exponent.
When a burst of noise occurs, the ringing frequency exceeds 100 MHz.

And my best guess is that it hits when all the various switching supplies 
hit a switch point at a common time and it adds up but at such a slow 
repeat rate my analog scope is too dim to see it. So the gigahertz 
digital comes out of its case when I go back out.

When they arrive, a clamp on to help kill longitudinal noise goes on each 
motor cable, as close to the drivers output as I can get it, and as many 
as there is room for in the run from the ground point to the 7i90 on the 
cable from the encoder. The maximum pulse rate into the encoder would be 
700 KHz if I try to explode the chuck so in terms of beads, I ought to 
be able to cover that from the point where its drain wire is grounded as 
it goes past that bolt on its way to the 7i90.. When the door is open, 
thats about 14". At least 7 beads will fit on that cable...

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-12 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 12 January 2017 00:27:15 Peter C. Wallace wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 23:11:51 -0500
> > From: Gene Heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net>
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.
> >
> > On Wednesday 11 January 2017 22:37:46 Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 21:50:19 -0500
> >>> From: Gene Heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net>
> >>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> >>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.
> >>>
> >>> On Wednesday 11 January 2017 13:34:50 Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>>>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:36:18 -0600
> >>>>> From: Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
> >>>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>>>> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> >>>>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>>>> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two
> >>>>> questions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>>>>>>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error
> >>>>>>>> is worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the
> >>>>>>>> bandwidth.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
> >>>>>>> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jon
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this.
> >>>>>> See the pix I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list. 
> >>>>>> The top, white trace in the halscope screen is the quadrature
> >>>>>> noise, easily 10x the timing wibbles I see on the hitachi's
> >>>>>> screen.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz
> >>>>> sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite
> >>>>> slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot
> >>>>> is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the
> >>>>> screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of
> >>>>> the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the
> >>>>> quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000
> >>>>> Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with
> >>>>> Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I
> >>>>> don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div,
> >>>>> meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user
> >>>>> units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jon
> >>>>
> >>>> The velocity output is calculated by using the number of counts
> >>>> divided by the time between the counts (time measured via a 1 MHz
> >>>> timestamp). If you have less than 2 counts per servo period the
> >>>> velocity estimation accuracy depends heavily the quadrature
> >>>> phase/symmetry since the edge spacing entirely determines the
> >>>> estimated velocity at this speed range.
> >>>>
> >>>> I suspect what Genes plot shows is that he has significant
> >>>> quadrature phase/symmetry errors at the FPGA inputs.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Again here is a velocity plot of a accurate 100 Hz quadrature
> >>>> signal:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png
> >>>
>

Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-12 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
> On 2017-01-11 18:18, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Yes it is way to slow, hardware counters are cheap and work well, do you 
> > have them in you PI board?
> 
> These are hardware counters sitting in the Mesa card.

I could read that in a message further down in the thread but at that point my 
message was already posted.


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Disarming a bomb:
  ...
  Do this.
  But first do this.
  ¤£$]}$££@485##

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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Peter C. Wallace 
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 23:11:51 -0500
> From: Gene Heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net>
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.
> 
> On Wednesday 11 January 2017 22:37:46 Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 21:50:19 -0500
>>> From: Gene Heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net>
>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>>     <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 11 January 2017 13:34:50 Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
>>>>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:36:18 -0600
>>>>> From: Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
>>>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>>>> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>>>> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two
>>>>> questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
>>>>>>>> worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the
>>>>>>>> bandwidth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
>>>>>>> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See
>>>>>> the pix I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The
>>>>>> top, white trace in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise,
>>>>>> easily 10x the timing wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz
>>>>> sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite
>>>>> slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot
>>>>> is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the
>>>>> screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of
>>>>> the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the
>>>>> quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000
>>>>> Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with
>>>>> Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I
>>>>> don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div,
>>>>> meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user
>>>>> units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>
>>>> The velocity output is calculated by using the number of counts
>>>> divided by the time between the counts (time measured via a 1 MHz
>>>> timestamp). If you have less than 2 counts per servo period the
>>>> velocity estimation accuracy depends heavily the quadrature
>>>> phase/symmetry since the edge spacing entirely determines the
>>>> estimated velocity at this speed range.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect what Genes plot shows is that he has significant
>>>> quadrature phase/symmetry errors at the FPGA inputs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Again here is a velocity plot of a accurate 100 Hz quadrature
>>>> signal:
>>>>
>>>> http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png
>>>
>>> I've not played with the stepgen type 2 yet, but I have adjusted the
>>> quadrature a few thousandths and reduced it by about 1/3rd. Thats
>>> helpfull as I can filter to smooth a tach dial once I have defeated
>>> the noise.
>>>
>>> But I have another concern. I have had to do a full powerdown reset
>>> to clear a watchdog bite. The original config was I think intended
>>> to clear it by

Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 11 January 2017 22:37:46 Peter C. Wallace wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 21:50:19 -0500
> > From: Gene Heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net>
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.
> >
> > On Wednesday 11 January 2017 13:34:50 Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:36:18 -0600
> >>> From: Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
> >>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>>     <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> >>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two
> >>> questions.
> >>>
> >>> On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
> >>>>> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>>>>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
> >>>>>> worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the
> >>>>>> bandwidth.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
> >>>>> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jon
> >>>>
> >>>> Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See
> >>>> the pix I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The
> >>>> top, white trace in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise,
> >>>> easily 10x the timing wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.
> >>>
> >>> If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz
> >>> sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite
> >>> slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot
> >>> is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the
> >>> screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of
> >>> the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the
> >>> quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000
> >>> Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with
> >>> Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.
> >>>
> >>> I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I
> >>> don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div,
> >>> meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user
> >>> units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>
> >> The velocity output is calculated by using the number of counts
> >> divided by the time between the counts (time measured via a 1 MHz
> >> timestamp). If you have less than 2 counts per servo period the
> >> velocity estimation accuracy depends heavily the quadrature
> >> phase/symmetry since the edge spacing entirely determines the
> >> estimated velocity at this speed range.
> >>
> >> I suspect what Genes plot shows is that he has significant
> >> quadrature phase/symmetry errors at the FPGA inputs.
> >>
> >>
> >> Again here is a velocity plot of a accurate 100 Hz quadrature
> >> signal:
> >>
> >> http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png
> >
> > I've not played with the stepgen type 2 yet, but I have adjusted the
> > quadrature a few thousandths and reduced it by about 1/3rd. Thats
> > helpfull as I can filter to smooth a tach dial once I have defeated
> > the noise.
> >
> > But I have another concern. I have had to do a full powerdown reset
> > to clear a watchdog bite. The original config was I think intended
> > to clear it by re-enabling the machine, but I could nolinuxcnct, so
> > I disconnected
>
> that
>
> > reset in the hal file I started with as the logic was self feeding,
> > locking out the ability to reset the disabled machine.  And I
> > couldn't even do it from the halconfig as it claimed another signal
> > was driving it when I tried to setp that pin.
> >
> > Do you, Peter, have a logic diagram I can re-construct for that,
> > that actually works?
>
> You need to restart linuxcnc to clear a watchdog bite
>
> >&g

Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Peter C. Wallace 
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 21:50:19 -0500
> From: Gene Heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net>
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.
> 
> On Wednesday 11 January 2017 13:34:50 Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:36:18 -0600
>>> From: Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
>>>>> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>>>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
>>>>>> worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the
>>>>>> bandwidth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
>>>>> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>
>>>> Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See
>>>> the pix I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The top,
>>>> white trace in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise, easily
>>>> 10x the timing wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.
>>>
>>> If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz
>>> sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite
>>> slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot
>>> is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the
>>> screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of
>>> the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the
>>> quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000
>>> Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with
>>> Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.
>>>
>>> I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I
>>> don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div,
>>> meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user
>>> units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>
>> The velocity output is calculated by using the number of counts
>> divided by the time between the counts (time measured via a 1 MHz
>> timestamp). If you have less than 2 counts per servo period the
>> velocity estimation accuracy depends heavily the quadrature
>> phase/symmetry since the edge spacing entirely determines the
>> estimated velocity at this speed range.
>>
>> I suspect what Genes plot shows is that he has significant quadrature
>> phase/symmetry errors at the FPGA inputs.
>>
>>
>> Again here is a velocity plot of a accurate 100 Hz quadrature signal:
>>
>> http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png
>
> I've not played with the stepgen type 2 yet, but I have adjusted the
> quadrature a few thousandths and reduced it by about 1/3rd. Thats
> helpfull as I can filter to smooth a tach dial once I have defeated the
> noise.
>
> But I have another concern. I have had to do a full powerdown reset to
> clear a watchdog bite. The original config was I think intended to clear
> it by re-enabling the machine, but I could nolinuxcnct, so I disconnected 
that
> reset in the hal file I started with as the logic was self feeding,
> locking out the ability to reset the disabled machine.  And I couldn't
> even do it from the halconfig as it claimed another signal was driving
> it when I tried to setp that pin.
>
> Do you, Peter, have a logic diagram I can re-construct for that, that
> actually works?




You need to restart linuxcnc to clear a watchdog bite

>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>>
>> (\__/)
>> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
>> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>>
>>
>> --
>>  Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
>> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
>> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
>

Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 11 January 2017 13:34:50 Peter C. Wallace wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
> > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:36:18 -0600
> > From: Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two
> > questions.
> >
> > On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
> >>> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
> >>>> worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the
> >>>> bandwidth.
> >>>
> >>> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
> >>> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>
> >> Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See
> >> the pix I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The top,
> >> white trace in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise, easily
> >> 10x the timing wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.
> >
> > If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz
> > sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite
> > slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot
> > is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the
> > screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of
> > the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the
> > quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000
> > Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with
> > Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.
> >
> > I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I
> > don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div,
> > meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user
> > units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.
> >
> > Jon
>
> The velocity output is calculated by using the number of counts
> divided by the time between the counts (time measured via a 1 MHz
> timestamp). If you have less than 2 counts per servo period the
> velocity estimation accuracy depends heavily the quadrature
> phase/symmetry since the edge spacing entirely determines the
> estimated velocity at this speed range.
>
> I suspect what Genes plot shows is that he has significant quadrature
> phase/symmetry errors at the FPGA inputs.
>
>
> Again here is a velocity plot of a accurate 100 Hz quadrature signal:
>
> http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png

I've not played with the stepgen type 2 yet, but I have adjusted the 
quadrature a few thousandths and reduced it by about 1/3rd. Thats 
helpfull as I can filter to smooth a tach dial once I have defeated the  
noise.

But I have another concern. I have had to do a full powerdown reset to 
clear a watchdog bite. The original config was I think intended to clear 
it by re-enabling the machine, but I could not, so I disconnected that 
reset in the hal file I started with as the logic was self feeding, 
locking out the ability to reset the disabled machine.  And I couldn't 
even do it from the halconfig as it claimed another signal was driving 
it when I tried to setp that pin.

Do you, Peter, have a logic diagram I can re-construct for that, that 
actually works?
>
>
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>
>
> --
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

--
Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread W. Martinjak 
On 2017-01-11 18:18, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> Yes it is way to slow, hardware counters are cheap and work well, do you have 
> them in you PI board?

These are hardware counters sitting in the Mesa card.

-- 
"In der Wissenschaft siegt nie eine neue Theorie,
nur ihre Gegner sterben nach und nach"

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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 11 January 2017 20:34:58 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Wednesday 11 January 2017 12:18:54 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Yes it is way to slow, hardware counters are cheap and work well, do
> > you have them in you PI board?
>
> This is my first pi project,its a raspi 3b, and I am learning as I go
> while I bring this machine to life.
>
> ATM its sitting there, with the back gear engaged, belts in lowest
> gear, turning at about 1/2 an rps as the vfd is sitting at about 20.5
> HZ. More to put time on a minmax looking for some huge bursts of speed
> from .5 rps, to 25k revs either way.  I hope I have that fixed, and
> that all I have to do with the x/z steppers when I finally bring those
> up, is more of the same that seems to have been the magic twinky to
> shut the vfd up.
>
> First time I've ever had to deal with an spi bus thats running at
> 32Megabaud when the noise from the switching psu, or the driver itself
> is at 32megabaud, and the noise bouncing around is at 50 to 150
> megahertz. 3 volt p-p buss, noise is faster than the buss and 6 volts
> or more p-p...
>
> It certainly enforces the idea of a single point ground, with BIG,
> Wide conductors.  So far , thats working.

And two hours later its still lazing along at about a third of a turn per 
second, and no noise bursts have been caught by the minmax module.  
Thats encouraging.

So tommorrow, do the same thing with each stepper driver and exercise it 
for odd motions.  Then I can start nailing down home & limit switches 
one axis at a time.  Then grab the taper rig out of the back of the GMC, 
and use its edge of the bed anchor to hold a hinge so I can close a 
swarf cover over the chuck to contain the swarf, make me a tool tip 
height gage, round up some more tools and tool holders, and put it to 
work.

I note there are some (4 or so) 1/2" holes in the chip pan but haven't 
looked for suitable drainage fittings to recover coolant, which will be 
needed for serious work.  One thing at a time though. They currently 
would drain into the left and right drawers in the pedestal, which would 
not be a GOOD THING.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 11 January 2017 12:18:54 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

> Yes it is way to slow, hardware counters are cheap and work well, do
> you have them in you PI board?
>
This is my first pi project,its a raspi 3b, and I am learning as I go 
while I bring this machine to life.

ATM its sitting there, with the back gear engaged, belts in lowest gear, 
turning at about 1/2 an rps as the vfd is sitting at about 20.5 HZ. More 
to put time on a minmax looking for some huge bursts of speed from .5 
rps, to 25k revs either way.  I hope I have that fixed, and that all I 
have to do with the x/z steppers when I finally bring those up, is more 
of the same that seems to have been the magic twinky to shut the vfd up.

First time I've ever had to deal with an spi bus thats running at 
32Megabaud when the noise from the switching psu, or the driver itself 
is at 32megabaud, and the noise bouncing around is at 50 to 150 
megahertz. 3 volt p-p buss, noise is faster than the buss and 6 volts or 
more p-p...

It certainly enforces the idea of a single point ground, with BIG, Wide 
conductors.  So far , thats working.

> On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 22:02:28 -0600
>
> Jon Elson  wrote:
> > On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
> > > worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the
> > > bandwidth.
> >
> > Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
> > sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > 
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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread samco 
http://electronicsam.com/images/matsuura/oscope.jpg

Part of what worked for us was we found a gear that had a profile close to the 
test gear from the alero docs.

http://electronicsam.com/images/matsuura/sensors.jpg

Been working great



On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 16:03:10 -0500
 Gene Heskett  wrote:
> On Wednesday 11 January 2017 11:36:18 Jon Elson wrote:
> 
> > On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
> > >> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > >>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
> > >>> worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the
> > >>> bandwidth.
> > >>
> > >> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
> > >> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
> > >>
> > >> Jon
> > >
> > > Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See the
> > > pix I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The top,
> > > white trace in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise, easily
> > > 10x the timing wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.
> >
> > If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz
> > sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite
> > slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot
> > is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the
> > screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of
> > the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the
> > quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000
> > Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with
> > Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.
> >
> > I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I
> > don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div,
> > meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user
> > units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> I have found some quadrature error, so I pulled the ats667 mount off and 
> carved about 5 thou off the divider between the A & B units, jammed a 
> brass shim into the side of the B pocket to push it toward theA unit, 
> carved about 5 thou off the side of the divider between them, washed the 
> oil off several times, glued the A unit in place with a brass shim 
> pushing it snugly toward the B, jammed a piece of rubber beside the B 
> unit to push it toward the A unit, perhaps 10 thou change in the 
> separation, and I'm headed back out to test. Breaking the B unit loose, 
> and filing about 3 or 4 thou off that side of the B  unit so the rubber 
> shim would shove it that much closer to together raised the minmax about 
> 10 points on the min, and lowered the max about 25, which have be an 
> indicator as to the mechanical directions needed.
> 
> Oh, that ground on the vfd control cable I thought might be loose, was.
> 
> the diff in duty cycle, aka time up vs time down? Its about 60/40. If it 
> was optical, I'd put a pot in series with the leds and adjust for 50% :) 
> But I haven't a clue how to do that with these ats667's.  Darn it.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 11 January 2017 11:36:18 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
> >> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
> >>> worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the
> >>> bandwidth.
> >>
> >> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
> >> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >
> > Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See the
> > pix I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The top,
> > white trace in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise, easily
> > 10x the timing wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.
>
> If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz
> sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite
> slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot
> is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the
> screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of
> the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the
> quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000
> Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with
> Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.
>
> I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I
> don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div,
> meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user
> units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.
>
> Jon
>
I have found some quadrature error, so I pulled the ats667 mount off and 
carved about 5 thou off the divider between the A & B units, jammed a 
brass shim into the side of the B pocket to push it toward theA unit, 
carved about 5 thou off the side of the divider between them, washed the 
oil off several times, glued the A unit in place with a brass shim 
pushing it snugly toward the B, jammed a piece of rubber beside the B 
unit to push it toward the A unit, perhaps 10 thou change in the 
separation, and I'm headed back out to test. Breaking the B unit loose, 
and filing about 3 or 4 thou off that side of the B  unit so the rubber 
shim would shove it that much closer to together raised the minmax about 
10 points on the min, and lowered the max about 25, which have be an 
indicator as to the mechanical directions needed.

Oh, that ground on the vfd control cable I thought might be loose, was.

the diff in duty cycle, aka time up vs time down? Its about 60/40. If it 
was optical, I'd put a pot in series with the leds and adjust for 50% :) 
But I haven't a clue how to do that with these ats667's.  Darn it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Peter C. Wallace 
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:

> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:36:18 -0600
> From: Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.
> 
> On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
>>>> worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the bandwidth.
>>> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
>>> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
>>>
>>> Jon
>> Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See the pix
>> I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The top, white trace
>> in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise, easily 10x the timing
>> wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.
>>
>>
> If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz
> sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite
> slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot
> is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the
> screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of
> the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the
> quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000
> Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with
> Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.
>
> I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I
> don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div,
> meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user
> units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.
>
> Jon


The velocity output is calculated by using the number of counts divided by the 
time between the counts (time measured via a 1 MHz timestamp). If you have 
less than 2 counts per servo period the velocity estimation accuracy depends 
heavily the quadrature phase/symmetry since the edge spacing entirely 
determines the estimated velocity at this speed range.

I suspect what Genes plot shows is that he has significant quadrature 
phase/symmetry errors at the FPGA inputs.


Again here is a velocity plot of a accurate 100 Hz quadrature signal:

http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png



>

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
Yes it is way to slow, hardware counters are cheap and work well, do you have 
them in you PI board?

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 22:02:28 -0600
Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is worthless
> > due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the bandwidth.
> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as 
> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Jon Elson 
On 01/10/2017 10:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
>>> worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the bandwidth.
>> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
>> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
>>
>> Jon
> Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See the pix
> I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The top, white trace
> in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise, easily 10x the timing
> wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.
>
>
If you are looking at the quadrature signals at a 1 KHz 
sampling rate, then unless the encoder is moving quite 
slowly, the sampling will be too coarse.  That screen shot 
is kind of small (you can take just a single window as the 
screenshot, by the way) but it looks like the duty cycle of 
the encoders is not 50%.  That may well be aliasing, as the 
quadrature signals seem to be moving much too close to 1000 
Hz.  You'd get much better results below 100 Hz.  Or, with 
Mesa hardware, you can sample these with the base thread.

I can't comment on the velocity output from the Mesa, as I 
don't know their gear (or driver).  But, the scale is 2/div, 
meaning the scaled velocity output is jumping around 2 user 
units up and down at a KHz rate.  Clearly, not good.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 11 January 2017 00:29:01 Peter C. Wallace wrote:

> >> AFAIK there are no significant issues with HM2 encoder velocity
> >> estimation
> >>
> >> Heres a 100 Hz quadrature velocity trace:
> >>
> >> http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png
> >>
> >> Notice theres no discernible ripple in the velocity even though
> >> theres considerable sample jitter (green trace)
> >
> > Show me that same trace out of a 7i90 running on the spi bus driven
> > by the rpi 3b.
>
> I expect it would be the same since all hm2 encoder counters are the
> same regardless of interface, and AFAIK the encoder driver code above
> the data transfer level is the same for all interface methods.
>
> If you wish to determine if your error is driver/SPI hardware _or_
> simply bad quadrature you can use a hardware stepgen in velocity mode
> looped back to the encoder counter since it generates basically
> perfect quadrature.
>
I'll see if I can rig my hal file for that tomorrow (later today 
actually). Some sort of a set of mux2's so I can dynamically switch it 
back and forth.

The encoder is a triplet of ats667's watching a 6" diameter, 60 tooth 
gear, so thats 240 transitions a second*rps.  The data sheets say the 
normal duty cycle is between 48 to 49 % as a result of the internal gain 
controls that hold the switchpoint pretty constant in the face of and 
eccentricity in the target. I have dialed that gear, and its 
eccentricity is less than a thou. It doesn't say what effect any 
residual magnetism of the steel of the gear might do but I tried to 
neutralize that by bringing a mag tool base such that it alternated as 
the gear turned, close enough to effect that, then slowly removed the 
tool base so the mag field faded leaving the gear as demagnetized as it 
was going to get.  No effect that I could detect. The lack of a 50% 
symmetry in the wave form is unavoidable when using the 667, and when I 
remachined the mount, I tried to get good spacings, and my scope 
confirms at most a 2 thou error in a 90 degree quadrature.  Thats not 
much but I'll confirm that on the analog scope tomorrow before I start 
mucking around in the hal file.

Does the stepgen in that mode also generate an index?  And should I 
switch that too? I have to assume no, its not mentioned in the manpage. 
>From the manpage I gather I should set a base thread since a step change 
at 1 kilohertz would be /4, or 250 teeth a second /60 
teeth=4.167 rps. Thats about as slow as it will run. ;-)

I also think that latency in the generated waveforms would be a self 
compensated error, and invisible to this test.

It sounds like to do this right, I'd need a dual channel Arbitrary 
Waveform Generator.  The last time I priced one of those, its was about 
10x my paygrade. But 10 years later a dual channel DDS version that can 
run at 6MHz is now around $55 USD, but of course 3 weeks away, from 
China.

I have some hal code that will do a /4 on the noise, but it would also be 
2 to 4 counts behind at a G33.1 reversal. I'll need to establish about a 
10 thou backlash in the z, somewhat more than it measures.

> If this generates noisy velocity signals then the driver/SPI interface
> needs to be looked into.
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-10 Thread Peter C. Wallace 
>>
>> AFAIK there are no significant issues with HM2 encoder velocity
>> estimation
>>
>> Heres a 100 Hz quadrature velocity trace:
>>
>> http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png
>>
>> Notice theres no discernible ripple in the velocity even though theres
>> considerable sample jitter (green trace)
>>
> Show me that same trace out of a 7i90 running on the spi bus driven by
> the rpi 3b.

I expect it would be the same since all hm2 encoder counters are the same 
regardless of interface, and AFAIK the encoder driver code above the data 
transfer level is the same for all interface methods.

If you wish to determine if your error is driver/SPI hardware _or_ simply bad 
quadrature you can use a hardware stepgen in velocity mode looped back
to the encoder counter since it generates basically perfect quadrature.

If this generates noisy velocity signals then the driver/SPI interface needs 
to be looked into.

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics



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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-10 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 10 January 2017 23:02:28 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is
> > worthless due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the bandwidth.
>
> Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as
> sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.
>
> Jon

Plz elucidate Jon. Something has got to be better than this. See the pix 
I posted with the last reply to Peter & the list.  The top, white trace 
in the halscope screen is the quadrature noise, easily 10x the timing 
wibbles I see on the hitachi's screen.

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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-10 Thread Jon Elson 
On 01/10/2017 08:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is worthless
> due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the bandwidth.
Well, that's why we use hardware encoder counters, as 
sampling the quadrature at 1 KHz just isn't fast enough.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Two questions.

2017-01-10 Thread Peter C. Wallace 
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:39:09 -0500
> From: Gene Heskett 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: EMC 
> Subject: [Emc-users] Two questions.
> 
> Greetings all;
>
> I am up2date on the pi a/o this morning.  So my first question is:
>
> Does the code I'm running have the latest commits from the work on the
> encoder, or is that strictly benefitting the software stepping crowd?
>
> In any event, it seriously needs help. I hooked up the analog scope so I
> could look at the waveforms and timings right out of the encoder, and
> with the motor being driven at 60.8Hz, the waveforms are within 2% of
> equal timings, and the overall speed wibblies are no worse than 2 or 3%,
> with excellent quadrature.
>
> But if I hook up the halscope, the apparent quadrature error is worthless
> due to the 1KHz servo-loop timing limiting the bandwidth.  I may add a
> bit of math to measure the loop time to see if there is something
> usefull there, because while I am seeing at worst, a 4% time wobble on
> the screen of my hitachi 1065, doing a capture with a minmax shows the
> huge below figures.
>
> I fired up the minmax, set it for 60 hz, to the motor, reset the minmax
> to start at a steady motor speed and at 30 minutes run time I  had
> logged a minimum of 269.9784 rpm's, and a maximum of 444.8399 rpms. No
> way in hell the spindle speed was wobbling that much
>
> I left it running while I went out and rounded up some din-din and fed
> us, but I must have had a blast of noise because after we had eaten, the
> halmeters showed -1527449 rpms and 525176.6, so I have work to do yet on
> the grounding. Humm, I can't recall if I put the vfd's control cable
> ground under the ground bolt nut, or if it was just dropped over the
> bolt, but I'd bet a cuppa caffeine its loose.  First thing I check
> tomorrow.
>
> Looking at the halscope, the 1khz sample is a mess.
>
> Is there a way I can process the velocity data by treating it to the time
> between samples so its reduced if the last full cycle was longer, or
> amplified if the last full cycle was shorter?, therefore leveling the
> differences in velocity caused by the timing variations? Seeing a good
> +-2% waveform on the analog scope while seeing a quad noise bar on the
> halscope thats just short of 50% of the dc the noise is sitting on, says
> the encoder signal from the 7i90 needs help, or the 7i90's encoder
> itself needs help.
>
> How best to proceed?
>


AFAIK there are no significant issues with HM2 encoder velocity estimation

Heres a 100 Hz quadrature velocity trace:

http://freeby.mesanet.com/100_Hz_quadrature_velocity.png

Notice theres no discernible ripple in the velocity even though theres 
considerable sample jitter (green trace)

(this config has a DPLL but its not being used to 
set the encoder sampling time)


> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
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Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] two questions

2008-11-02 Thread John Thornton 
Take a look here
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting

John



On 2 Nov 2008 at 17:04, ygdan1001 wrote:

  hello!
 
 i did the latency test, the max jitter(base thread 25us) is 113511ns,
 it is over 100us, what should i do to improve them? 
 
 then, i  configurated the stepconf wizard , when i open my mill, there
 is a error: unexpected realtime delay: check dmesg for details. and
 when i open other files, there is also the error.
 
 could anybody give me some suggestions?
 thanks!
 
 yang
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