Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
- "Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto: > On Mon, 19 May 2008 02:44:51 -0300 "Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 1:33 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:32:04 +0200 (CEST) Dave Andreoli > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > > > > > and finally i added it to cvs :) > > > > yay! > > > > > > > btw - i dont' see any way to remove a gadget once u added it to > "display > > > with win+g" binding... :( > > > > u need to right-click them while they're visible (win+g -> right > click > > -> remove) > > aaah! ok. that works. :) Hey! This list is too fast for me :) raster: thanks for committing, and k-s: thanks for replying faster than me :) Dave > > > >> Hi all > > >> as someone of you know I'm working on a module to place gadgets > on the > > >> desktop. It's ready for me! and now need your testing and your > suggestion. > > >> > > >> Gadgets can simply stay on you desktop window, but can also be > stacked over > > >> your windows; gadgets stacked ontop can be showed/hidden with a > key (I use > > >> Super-G, you have to bind your). > > >> > > >> I need your commnts on how the gadgets placed on top should > work. > > >> Now when you press the key the whole screen fade to white and the > gadgets > > >> appear with an animation, the mouse events are captured by the > big window > > >> so that you can't use your desktop until you repress the key and > the > > >> gadgets disappear... > > >> > > >> Do you think is the right way to do it? I have also a version > that make the > > >> big window shaped and you can use your desktop also when the > gadgets are > > >> showed. I'm not sure witch of the 2 is the better. So I need > your > > >> comment :) > > > > > > not sure the big window popup (win+g) is that useful - only trhing > i'd make > > > now is the ability to have gagdet below everything (on the > desktop) or > > > above (as they are now - they are above filemanager icons for > example) > > > > that would be good, yes. > > > > as for useful or not, well, it's a nice show off feature! I have > > larger version of gadgets, I have a huge pager there and I click > the > > pager for another desktop and you see the desktop movement (all > color > > modulated), very nice ;-) > > > > another utility is that you can see some useful information without > > having to unblock the view by hiding all (Win+D, ctrl+alt+d) > > windows... however we could use something that the upper layer is > like > > the desktop layer. > > that is true. may as well leave it since its already there :) > > > -- > > Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > > http://profusion.mobi embedded systems > > -- > > MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Skype: gsbarbieri > > Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 > > > > > -- > - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > -- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
On Mon, 19 May 2008 02:44:51 -0300 "Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 1:33 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:32:04 +0200 (CEST) Dave Andreoli > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > > > and finally i added it to cvs :) > > yay! > > > > btw - i dont' see any way to remove a gadget once u added it to "display > > with win+g" binding... :( > > u need to right-click them while they're visible (win+g -> right click > -> remove) aaah! ok. that works. :) > >> Hi all > >> as someone of you know I'm working on a module to place gadgets on the > >> desktop. It's ready for me! and now need your testing and your suggestion. > >> > >> Gadgets can simply stay on you desktop window, but can also be stacked over > >> your windows; gadgets stacked ontop can be showed/hidden with a key (I use > >> Super-G, you have to bind your). > >> > >> I need your commnts on how the gadgets placed on top should work. > >> Now when you press the key the whole screen fade to white and the gadgets > >> appear with an animation, the mouse events are captured by the big window > >> so that you can't use your desktop until you repress the key and the > >> gadgets disappear... > >> > >> Do you think is the right way to do it? I have also a version that make the > >> big window shaped and you can use your desktop also when the gadgets are > >> showed. I'm not sure witch of the 2 is the better. So I need your > >> comment :) > > > > not sure the big window popup (win+g) is that useful - only trhing i'd make > > now is the ability to have gagdet below everything (on the desktop) or > > above (as they are now - they are above filemanager icons for example) > > that would be good, yes. > > as for useful or not, well, it's a nice show off feature! I have > larger version of gadgets, I have a huge pager there and I click the > pager for another desktop and you see the desktop movement (all color > modulated), very nice ;-) > > another utility is that you can see some useful information without > having to unblock the view by hiding all (Win+D, ctrl+alt+d) > windows... however we could use something that the upper layer is like > the desktop layer. that is true. may as well leave it since its already there :) > -- > Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > http://profusion.mobi embedded systems > -- > MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Skype: gsbarbieri > Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 1:33 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:32:04 +0200 (CEST) Dave Andreoli > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > and finally i added it to cvs :) yay! > btw - i dont' see any way to remove a gadget once u added it to "display with > win+g" binding... :( u need to right-click them while they're visible (win+g -> right click -> remove) >> Hi all >> as someone of you know I'm working on a module to place gadgets on the >> desktop. It's ready for me! and now need your testing and your suggestion. >> >> Gadgets can simply stay on you desktop window, but can also be stacked over >> your windows; gadgets stacked ontop can be showed/hidden with a key (I use >> Super-G, you have to bind your). >> >> I need your commnts on how the gadgets placed on top should work. >> Now when you press the key the whole screen fade to white and the gadgets >> appear with an animation, the mouse events are captured by the big window so >> that you can't use your desktop until you repress the key and the gadgets >> disappear... >> >> Do you think is the right way to do it? I have also a version that make the >> big window shaped and you can use your desktop also when the gadgets are >> showed. I'm not sure witch of the 2 is the better. So I need your comment :) > > not sure the big window popup (win+g) is that useful - only trhing i'd make > now > is the ability to have gagdet below everything (on the desktop) or above (as > they are now - they are above filemanager icons for example) that would be good, yes. as for useful or not, well, it's a nice show off feature! I have larger version of gadgets, I have a huge pager there and I click the pager for another desktop and you see the desktop movement (all color modulated), very nice ;-) another utility is that you can see some useful information without having to unblock the view by hiding all (Win+D, ctrl+alt+d) windows... however we could use something that the upper layer is like the desktop layer. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:32:04 +0200 (CEST) Dave Andreoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: and finally i added it to cvs :) btw - i dont' see any way to remove a gadget once u added it to "display with win+g" binding... :( > Hi all > as someone of you know I'm working on a module to place gadgets on the > desktop. It's ready for me! and now need your testing and your suggestion. > > Gadgets can simply stay on you desktop window, but can also be stacked over > your windows; gadgets stacked ontop can be showed/hidden with a key (I use > Super-G, you have to bind your). > > I need your commnts on how the gadgets placed on top should work. > Now when you press the key the whole screen fade to white and the gadgets > appear with an animation, the mouse events are captured by the big window so > that you can't use your desktop until you repress the key and the gadgets > disappear... > > Do you think is the right way to do it? I have also a version that make the > big window shaped and you can use your desktop also when the gadgets are > showed. I'm not sure witch of the 2 is the better. So I need your comment :) not sure the big window popup (win+g) is that useful - only trhing i'd make now is the ability to have gagdet below everything (on the desktop) or above (as they are now - they are above filemanager icons for example) > As usual you can find the download and more info on my site > http://www.gurumeditation.it/blog/?page_id=48 > > P.S. on the site will also find a new calculator completly done in edje :) > > Thanks all > Dave > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > ___ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
> Note that things like Flash/mxml (then to swf) or Silverlight/ > xaml (may also have some binary representation), unlike edje/edc, > have extensive 'script' language support and allow for separating > the code logic from the 'gui' part in separate files if desired > (though I suppose one could do this with edje/edc/embryo). > > >> edje is not far of there. see above. it needs just a few calls and exporting >> some evas and edje controls and bingo. you can do just the same. embryo is a >> >> > > E... modulo some gfx bits that are still not in evas, and > a fairly flexible animation framework, and video/multimedia stuff... > and a browser plugin... :) > > > >>> Alternatively, there's no need that edje should be everything to >>> everyone, and it might be better to have other things address further >>> needs, eg. evolve/edc for more involved widgets, maybe other animation >>> mechanisms, etc. >>> >>> >> it should help abstract the ui from the code. it should not become the code. >> as >> above. i have had plans for a long time and will get to them eventually - >> it's >> all easy to do. i just have no NEED for it right now, and have other things >> to >> do, so i haven't done it. >> >> On a related note to all this, one should mention evolve/edc. There has been recent work on etk to extend the canvas widget and to allow for importing any evas object as an etk widget, with the eventual goal of allowing such notions to be representable via evolve's edc. There's also some work on a timeline based animation framework that could also be represented via evolve's edc syntax.. So, there seems to be a possible extension of edje there in some non-trivial ways. Maybe Hisham could give some further comments on what may be planned there...? - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Then one needs to extend edje/embryo scripting far more than it's currently capable of.. and for it to be sufficiently capable for general kinds of 'apps' it may need to have access to system calls and other things. One'd also need to have well-known entry points into the .edj file - either a special main group or a special script function to execute on load or some such, and have all being executed in some kind of 'runtime'. > > i have plans to do this with edje. it'd actually be very simple. the plans go > like this: > > 1. allow edje objects to be ONLY defined by embryo script. right now you can > specify a message handling callback for an object and then script sections > when > events (programs) get triggered. there is always one on load so it's easy to > run code when the object is loaded for setup etc. etc. but i want to go > further > and add a resize() callback and a part_text_set() callback and then the code > logic here handles all of that. > 2. combined with #1 above add more hooks for the script to be able to CREATE > and > DESTROY and MANIPULATE evas objects directly. edje would track these make sure > they are cleaned up on object destruction and maybe enforce limits (like no > more > than 1000 objects or some user settable limits). > 3. add the ability to load other edje objects from the same file, so you can > mix and match the older layout and declarative way of doing objects and the > script/code way. > 4. add a few more calls like adding/deleting pollers > > It's interesting that Flash seems to have originally centered around AS, but Flex is more about a balanced combo of AS plus a declarative xml syntax and css (plus their designer/builder apps of course), and this is what most others do as well (except possibly JavaFX). Anyway... yeah, extending embryo scripting to allow for more dynamic handling of "edje/evas objects" would be very useful, but I think you're going to want the ability to 'load' objects from other edj files as well.. or at least have edje itself load such other files and let embryo functions get whatever groups/parts it needs from that file. One could argue that edje should *optionally* allow for other scripting languages (ie. optionally compiled, loadable mods), after all one could extend edje to support python or javascript in an extended edc with such added scripts.. but that would mean duplicating a lot of edje code, so why not add it as optional modules, etc. But one could instead argue that one keep whatever script/code logic separate from the initial ui/gfx description, and have the code load that external edj/eet/whatever file and work with that. But for this to work best it'd mean that the script/code would really need to go *beyond* what the edje api provides.. into the realm of what the "edje-edit" api has, so that one can dynamically create/modify/ destroy edje/evas objects (as you mentioned). In the end, I'd probably agree with this latter approach, especially for more complex stuff.. ie. separate code logic which uses other resource file(s) for its initial gfx-ui description (and it's basically what I'd meant with themable-evas-objects for C code, though it could be done with scripting too). > this should allow you to pretty much do anything that flash does with > actionscript, BUT only locally within a limited sandbox. i do NOT intend to > add > network access or any filesystem access or anything else - this is dangerous. > you download and use a theme (blindly) and suddenly it's reading your emails > and > sending them of to someone else. themes are NOT programs. they are not meant > to > be. you should not have to even think of security with them. at worst they > should just be annoying and useless. > > Note that things like Flash/mxml (then to swf) or Silverlight/ xaml (may also have some binary representation), unlike edje/edc, have extensive 'script' language support and allow for separating the code logic from the 'gui' part in separate files if desired (though I suppose one could do this with edje/edc/embryo). > > edje is not far of there. see above. it needs just a few calls and exporting > some evas and edje controls and bingo. you can do just the same. embryo is a > E... modulo some gfx bits that are still not in evas, and a fairly flexible animation framework, and video/multimedia stuff... and a browser plugin... :) >> Alternatively, there's no need that edje should be everything to >> everyone, and it might be better to have other things address further >> needs, eg. evolve/edc for more involved widgets, maybe other animation >> mechanisms, etc. >> > > it should help abstract the ui from the code. it should not become the code. > as > above. i have had plans for a long time and will get to them eventually - it's > all easy to do. i just have no NEED for it
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
On Wed, 07 May 2008 02:38:19 -0400 Jose Gonzalez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: >Carsten wrote: > > >> Yeah, and it sounds like a fine 'security minded' approach.. > >> but in practice it's not going to make much of a difference since > >> edje is used along with all sorts of code that's highly insecure. > >> > > > > see above. it is important. it's a mistake microsoft have made all over the > > place for years and have spent years cleaning up. vb script in word > > documents able to take your files and modify them or destroy them or send > > them to others etc. > > > > > > What! That MS made it easy to have malware, adware, viruses, > and other necessary aspects of the modern computing experience... > well, that's just an eeexageration. :) > Actually, the whole thing is screwed from the ground up man, > there's little that can be done to have interaction with 'the world' > in a rich, free, real-time sense and also be 'secure', not with the > way the common, legacy systems are designed right now. sure. with great power comes great responsibility. that's where i draw the line. themes are something u can safely use and try out - or should be. install software at your peril. its a matter of managing expectations. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Carsten wrote: >> Yeah, and it sounds like a fine 'security minded' approach.. >> but in practice it's not going to make much of a difference since >> edje is used along with all sorts of code that's highly insecure. >> > > see above. it is important. it's a mistake microsoft have made all over the > place for years and have spent years cleaning up. vb script in word documents > able to take your files and modify them or destroy them or send them to others > etc. > > What! That MS made it easy to have malware, adware, viruses, and other necessary aspects of the modern computing experience... well, that's just an eeexageration. :) Actually, the whole thing is screwed from the ground up man, there's little that can be done to have interaction with 'the world' in a rich, free, real-time sense and also be 'secure', not with the way the common, legacy systems are designed right now. - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
On Tue, 06 May 2008 13:41:12 -0400 Jose Gonzalez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: >Gustavo wrote: > > >> >>> > >> >> What's the relevant notion of: "self-hosting" edje application? personally i think it's not useful beyond development/debugging and when designing themes. edje was NEVER intended to write programs with and has a very limited set of api calls it can call from embryo as a result. a self-hosting edje program imho just is not a good idea. it was not designed for it. it's programming model is inconvenient at best for writing programs, and edje will always heavily limit any IO and access for security reasons. > >> Then one needs to extend edje/embryo scripting far more than > >> it's currently capable of.. and for it to be sufficiently capable > >> for general kinds of 'apps' it may need to have access to system > >> calls and other things. One'd also need to have well-known entry > >> points into the .edj file - either a special main group or a special > >> script function to execute on load or some such, and have all being > >> executed in some kind of 'runtime'. i have plans to do this with edje. it'd actually be very simple. the plans go like this: 1. allow edje objects to be ONLY defined by embryo script. right now you can specify a message handling callback for an object and then script sections when events (programs) get triggered. there is always one on load so it's easy to run code when the object is loaded for setup etc. etc. but i want to go further and add a resize() callback and a part_text_set() callback and then the code logic here handles all of that. 2. combined with #1 above add more hooks for the script to be able to CREATE and DESTROY and MANIPULATE evas objects directly. edje would track these make sure they are cleaned up on object destruction and maybe enforce limits (like no more than 1000 objects or some user settable limits). 3. add the ability to load other edje objects from the same file, so you can mix and match the older layout and declarative way of doing objects and the script/code way. 4. add a few more calls like adding/deleting pollers this should allow you to pretty much do anything that flash does with actionscript, BUT only locally within a limited sandbox. i do NOT intend to add network access or any filesystem access or anything else - this is dangerous. you download and use a theme (blindly) and suddenly it's reading your emails and sending them of to someone else. themes are NOT programs. they are not meant to be. you should not have to even think of security with them. at worst they should just be annoying and useless. > >> Note that things like Flash/mxml (then to swf) or Silverlight/ > >> xaml (may also have some binary representation), unlike edje/edc, > >> have extensive 'script' language support and allow for separating > >> the code logic from the 'gui' part in separate files if desired > >> (though I suppose one could do this with edje/edc/embryo). edje is not far of there. see above. it needs just a few calls and exporting some evas and edje controls and bingo. you can do just the same. embryo is a full VM and language. most of the nuts and bolts are there - just the api hooks need adding really :) BUT edje is intended to be a helper and separator for programs to use to create interfaces. > > The whole point of using Embryo instead of other VM is exactly that > > you don't have any access to user's machine. I agree with that, I'd > > avoid adding these calls, for such thing we can use Python or Ruby or > > other scripting languages with full-system support, they have > > different scope. exactly. edje has a full mssaging interface where a calling app (be it c, c++, ruby, python or whatever) can message abstract information to the edje and also have edje message he app back. if they understand each others messages then the app can pass information to edje at a high level and vice-versa. so the app can selectively expose system information to the edje object as it sees fit - but that is the TASK of the app. it is KNOWN that that is what it does. allowing edje objects the power to just go fetch it themselves is opening a doorway so wide that it has massive security, privacy etc. implications and now every theme needs to be checked for possible security and privacy violations. when you set a wallpaper on your desktop you don't EXPECT to need to get a security audit. edje is just a very powerful "jpeg". when you compile and run an app you expect that it has been audited (thus its in the package repository for your system) or its an accepted risk you take in installing it. it's a matter of managing expectations. > Yeah, and it sounds like a fine 'security minded' approach.. > but in practice it's not going to make much of a difference since > edje is used along with all sorts of code that's highly insecure. see above. it is important. it's a mistake microsoft have made all over the place for years and hav
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Gustavo wrote: >> >>> >> >> What's the relevant notion of: "self-hosting" edje application? >> >> >> > >> > My definition of "self-hosting" edje apps is an application that >> > doesn't need any special C code to work. See the calculator that is >> > referenced in the starting E-Mail from this thread. >> > >> > >> >> Then one needs to extend edje/embryo scripting far more than >> it's currently capable of.. and for it to be sufficiently capable >> for general kinds of 'apps' it may need to have access to system >> calls and other things. One'd also need to have well-known entry >> points into the .edj file - either a special main group or a special >> script function to execute on load or some such, and have all being >> executed in some kind of 'runtime'. >> >> The problem with this approach is that it doesn't provide a >> means to 'theme' the 'app', unless one explicitly allows for that >> ability as part of your notion of 'app'. >> >> Note that things like Flash/mxml (then to swf) or Silverlight/ >> xaml (may also have some binary representation), unlike edje/edc, >> have extensive 'script' language support and allow for separating >> the code logic from the 'gui' part in separate files if desired >> (though I suppose one could do this with edje/edc/embryo). >> >> One could also envision this notion in a manner similar to e17's >> current modules minus the configuration widgets, or like the notion of >> 'themable-evas-objects' I've mentioned a couple of times, ie. shared >> libs that have certain C function interfaces (such as 'add obj to an >> evas', 'set a them file on an obj', 'set,get a property/value on an >> obj', etc), or via scripting language modules of whatever sort. >> One could think of these as self-determined rather than self- >> hosting, and could be loaded by any program that knows the interfaces >> they expose. It also gives a canonical notion of 'theme' file so that >> one can theme these 'apps' - even though they may be self-determined, >> one may still want to separate the gui aspects in such a way that the >> 'app' can be given different gui themes. >> >> In general, there are many, many ways to imagine these kinds >> of notions.. but even when things start out 'self-contained', they >> often seem to end up wanting to become less and less so, in order >> to allow for more flexibility, theming, modularization, etc. >> > > Jose, > > The whole point of using Embryo instead of other VM is exactly that > you don't have any access to user's machine. I agree with that, I'd > avoid adding these calls, for such thing we can use Python or Ruby or > other scripting languages with full-system support, they have > different scope. > > Yeah, and it sounds like a fine 'security minded' approach.. but in practice it's not going to make much of a difference since edje is used along with all sorts of code that's highly insecure. What difference does it make that embryo itself can't access system calls when you have e17, e17-modules, all-sorts-of-apps/libs that use edje being written in C that can access anything and everything? Might as well have your 'scripting' language be able to do the same and restrict its use in edje itself to only 'safe' calls. The only way things will ever come close to a realistic notion of 'secure' will be when the host OS itself can be split into virtual, insulated versions of itself that are limited and private to a given user - far more than the current unix like permissions system gives. In any case, even if one wants to keep embryo to a limited VM (which is fine), there are still many ways in which its use with edje could be extended.. possibly even allowing for edje/edc and edje_cc to support other scripting languages - javascript could be good one. Alternatively, there's no need that edje should be everything to everyone, and it might be better to have other things address further needs, eg. evolve/edc for more involved widgets, maybe other animation mechanisms, etc. > I think that Andreas idea is close to mine: allow users to have nice, > beautiful toys, that are really easy to make with pure-Edje/Embryo > today, as it was demonstrated by Dave's calculator. Another examples > would be calendar viewers, little games and more... Please don't > consider these "apps" like we're used to, I don't see any need for > themes, since you just need to get another app that looks like you > want. > You may not see any need for themes now, but you/others may well see differently in time.. especially if more complex examples of such things became common. Re-usability and modularity eventually come forefront - whether it's at design/development time or at runtime.. and 'themes' are just one example of that. Replacing one 'toy' with another just to have it look somewhat differently may be fine for small toys.. but not everyone is going to limit the
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 1:50 AM, Jose Gonzalez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Andreas wrote: > > >>> The calculator works nice with edje_editor, but if I open it with > >>> edje_viewer it doesn't work. What is the preferred way to run > >>> "self-hosting" edje application? > >>> > >> What's the relevant notion of: "self-hosting" edje application? > >> > > > > My definition of "self-hosting" edje apps is an application that > > doesn't need any special C code to work. See the calculator that is > > referenced in the starting E-Mail from this thread. > > > > > > Then one needs to extend edje/embryo scripting far more than > it's currently capable of.. and for it to be sufficiently capable > for general kinds of 'apps' it may need to have access to system > calls and other things. One'd also need to have well-known entry > points into the .edj file - either a special main group or a special > script function to execute on load or some such, and have all being > executed in some kind of 'runtime'. > > The problem with this approach is that it doesn't provide a > means to 'theme' the 'app', unless one explicitly allows for that > ability as part of your notion of 'app'. > > Note that things like Flash/mxml (then to swf) or Silverlight/ > xaml (may also have some binary representation), unlike edje/edc, > have extensive 'script' language support and allow for separating > the code logic from the 'gui' part in separate files if desired > (though I suppose one could do this with edje/edc/embryo). > > One could also envision this notion in a manner similar to e17's > current modules minus the configuration widgets, or like the notion of > 'themable-evas-objects' I've mentioned a couple of times, ie. shared > libs that have certain C function interfaces (such as 'add obj to an > evas', 'set a them file on an obj', 'set,get a property/value on an > obj', etc), or via scripting language modules of whatever sort. > One could think of these as self-determined rather than self- > hosting, and could be loaded by any program that knows the interfaces > they expose. It also gives a canonical notion of 'theme' file so that > one can theme these 'apps' - even though they may be self-determined, > one may still want to separate the gui aspects in such a way that the > 'app' can be given different gui themes. > > In general, there are many, many ways to imagine these kinds > of notions.. but even when things start out 'self-contained', they > often seem to end up wanting to become less and less so, in order > to allow for more flexibility, theming, modularization, etc. Jose, The whole point of using Embryo instead of other VM is exactly that you don't have any access to user's machine. I agree with that, I'd avoid adding these calls, for such thing we can use Python or Ruby or other scripting languages with full-system support, they have different scope. I think that Andreas idea is close to mine: allow users to have nice, beautiful toys, that are really easy to make with pure-Edje/Embryo today, as it was demonstrated by Dave's calculator. Another examples would be calendar viewers, little games and more... Please don't consider these "apps" like we're used to, I don't see any need for themes, since you just need to get another app that looks like you want. That said, I see some room for improvement: - some persistance, either sqlite or eet support from embryo, allowing save minor state. This should be sandboxed as well; - some call, could be a change of size hint -- see property and callback, that would make the app host (ie: loader) to resize), maybe calls to make it fullscreen; - evas.inc (evas bindings for embryo); - gettext.inc (gettext bindings for embryo), maybe make gettext support transparent for strings... this would be a great addition to Edje: add a flag to mark TEXT/TEXTBLOCK as translatable and pack .po inside .edj having http+xml (maybe xmlrpc for easy of use) would help, but would make it more unsafe, the loader would have to specifically control whenever the .edj would have such permissions, thus I don't think it's something for now, but the above ideas are easy. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi Embedded Systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (81) 9927 0010 - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Andreas wrote: >>> The calculator works nice with edje_editor, but if I open it with >>> edje_viewer it doesn't work. What is the preferred way to run >>> "self-hosting" edje application? >>> >> What's the relevant notion of: "self-hosting" edje application? >> > > My definition of "self-hosting" edje apps is an application that > doesn't need any special C code to work. See the calculator that is > referenced in the starting E-Mail from this thread. > > Then one needs to extend edje/embryo scripting far more than it's currently capable of.. and for it to be sufficiently capable for general kinds of 'apps' it may need to have access to system calls and other things. One'd also need to have well-known entry points into the .edj file - either a special main group or a special script function to execute on load or some such, and have all being executed in some kind of 'runtime'. The problem with this approach is that it doesn't provide a means to 'theme' the 'app', unless one explicitly allows for that ability as part of your notion of 'app'. Note that things like Flash/mxml (then to swf) or Silverlight/ xaml (may also have some binary representation), unlike edje/edc, have extensive 'script' language support and allow for separating the code logic from the 'gui' part in separate files if desired (though I suppose one could do this with edje/edc/embryo). One could also envision this notion in a manner similar to e17's current modules minus the configuration widgets, or like the notion of 'themable-evas-objects' I've mentioned a couple of times, ie. shared libs that have certain C function interfaces (such as 'add obj to an evas', 'set a them file on an obj', 'set,get a property/value on an obj', etc), or via scripting language modules of whatever sort. One could think of these as self-determined rather than self- hosting, and could be loaded by any program that knows the interfaces they expose. It also gives a canonical notion of 'theme' file so that one can theme these 'apps' - even though they may be self-determined, one may still want to separate the gui aspects in such a way that the 'app' can be given different gui themes. In general, there are many, many ways to imagine these kinds of notions.. but even when things start out 'self-contained', they often seem to end up wanting to become less and less so, in order to allow for more flexibility, theming, modularization, etc. >>> Maybe a plain C application that does >>> only load an edj from command line should be delivered with edje. >>> Maybe with options to define the backend engine. What do you think? >>> >>> >> Besides needing to specify the display evas, one would also need >> to specify the group to load in the edj file. But this would hardly be >> enough in general to get meaningful things.. One would need to either >> restrict to edjes which have a certain named group (say one called >> 'main' or something) which is an expected wrapper for the 'edje app' >> and a canonical entry point to the edj file, and it would need all the >> 'code logic' to be done via scripting. >> To go beyond that, one'd need a more flexible approach.. but >> again, what do you want 'self-hosting edje app' to mean? >> - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Andreas Volz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Am Sun, 4 May 2008 17:03:33 -0300 schrieb Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri: > > > > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Andreas Volz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > Am Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:32:04 +0200 (CEST) schrieb Dave Andreoli: > > > > As usual you can find the download and more info on my site > > > > http://www.gurumeditation.it/blog/?page_id=48 > > > > > > > > P.S. on the site will also find a new calculator completly done > > > > in edje :) > > > > > > The calculator works nice with edje_editor, but if I open it with > > > edje_viewer it doesn't work. What is the preferred way to run > > > "self-hosting" edje application? Maybe a plain C application that > > > does only load an edj from command line should be delivered with > > > edje. Maybe with options to define the backend engine. What do you > > > think? > > > > that's a good question, we could write a simple edje_launcher that > > would handle resize and few other external properties right... maybe > > write it in a way that these launchers could have the whole .edj > > integrated in the rodata section, making it a standalone bundle if > > it's compiled statically? > > Not sure if we talk about the same details. My idea is to have little > edj applications that are not depending on any specific C code. There > should be a common loader application. This loader application could be > ported to any OS or also linked static for an easier distribution. I > imagine this edj apps to be like a Flash file and the loader app like > the Flash Player. I think you got the idea. > > There could also be a common edj loader in e17 itself to add modules > that are "self-hosted". Then new modules could be made in edj only > without any line of C code. > > Another idea is a browser plugin. I know the idea is old, but this would > also only work easier if the entry point for self hosting edje apps is > well defined. Yes, the same idea, but I was just suggesting this loader to be able to be linked with the .edj application itself, so users may not have the loader installed. It's an idea on top of yours :-) -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi Embedded Systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (81) 9927 0010 - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Am Sun, 4 May 2008 17:03:33 -0300 schrieb Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri: > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Andreas Volz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Am Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:32:04 +0200 (CEST) schrieb Dave Andreoli: > > > As usual you can find the download and more info on my site > > > http://www.gurumeditation.it/blog/?page_id=48 > > > > > > P.S. on the site will also find a new calculator completly done > > > in edje :) > > > > The calculator works nice with edje_editor, but if I open it with > > edje_viewer it doesn't work. What is the preferred way to run > > "self-hosting" edje application? Maybe a plain C application that > > does only load an edj from command line should be delivered with > > edje. Maybe with options to define the backend engine. What do you > > think? > > that's a good question, we could write a simple edje_launcher that > would handle resize and few other external properties right... maybe > write it in a way that these launchers could have the whole .edj > integrated in the rodata section, making it a standalone bundle if > it's compiled statically? Not sure if we talk about the same details. My idea is to have little edj applications that are not depending on any specific C code. There should be a common loader application. This loader application could be ported to any OS or also linked static for an easier distribution. I imagine this edj apps to be like a Flash file and the loader app like the Flash Player. I think you got the idea. There could also be a common edj loader in e17 itself to add modules that are "self-hosted". Then new modules could be made in edj only without any line of C code. Another idea is a browser plugin. I know the idea is old, but this would also only work easier if the entry point for self hosting edje apps is well defined. regards Andreas - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Am Mon, 05 May 2008 02:00:42 -0400 schrieb Jose Gonzalez: >Andreas wrote: > > > The calculator works nice with edje_editor, but if I open it with > > edje_viewer it doesn't work. What is the preferred way to run > > "self-hosting" edje application? > > What's the relevant notion of: "self-hosting" edje application? My definition of "self-hosting" edje apps is an application that doesn't need any special C code to work. See the calculator that is referenced in the starting E-Mail from this thread. > > Maybe a plain C application that does > > only load an edj from command line should be delivered with edje. > > Maybe with options to define the backend engine. What do you think? > > > > Besides needing to specify the display evas, one would also need > to specify the group to load in the edj file. But this would hardly be > enough in general to get meaningful things.. One would need to either > restrict to edjes which have a certain named group (say one called > 'main' or something) which is an expected wrapper for the 'edje app' > and a canonical entry point to the edj file, and it would need all the > 'code logic' to be done via scripting. > To go beyond that, one'd need a more flexible approach.. but > again, what do you want 'self-hosting edje app' to mean? regards Andreas - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Andreas wrote: > The calculator works nice with edje_editor, but if I open it with > edje_viewer it doesn't work. What is the preferred way to run > "self-hosting" edje application? What's the relevant notion of: "self-hosting" edje application? > Maybe a plain C application that does > only load an edj from command line should be delivered with edje. Maybe > with options to define the backend engine. What do you think? > Besides needing to specify the display evas, one would also need to specify the group to load in the edj file. But this would hardly be enough in general to get meaningful things.. One would need to either restrict to edjes which have a certain named group (say one called 'main' or something) which is an expected wrapper for the 'edje app' and a canonical entry point to the edj file, and it would need all the 'code logic' to be done via scripting. To go beyond that, one'd need a more flexible approach.. but again, what do you want 'self-hosting edje app' to mean? - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Andreas Volz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Am Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:32:04 +0200 (CEST) schrieb Dave Andreoli: > > As usual you can find the download and more info on my site > > http://www.gurumeditation.it/blog/?page_id=48 > > > > P.S. on the site will also find a new calculator completly done in > > edje :) > > The calculator works nice with edje_editor, but if I open it with > edje_viewer it doesn't work. What is the preferred way to run > "self-hosting" edje application? Maybe a plain C application that does > only load an edj from command line should be delivered with edje. Maybe > with options to define the backend engine. What do you think? that's a good question, we could write a simple edje_launcher that would handle resize and few other external properties right... maybe write it in a way that these launchers could have the whole .edj integrated in the rodata section, making it a standalone bundle if it's compiled statically? -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi Embedded Systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (81) 9927 0010 - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Am Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:32:04 +0200 (CEST) schrieb Dave Andreoli: > Hi all > as someone of you know I'm working on a module to place gadgets on > the desktop. It's ready for me! and now need your testing and your > suggestion. > > Gadgets can simply stay on you desktop window, but can also be > stacked over your windows; gadgets stacked ontop can be showed/hidden > with a key (I use Super-G, you have to bind your). > > I need your commnts on how the gadgets placed on top should work. > Now when you press the key the whole screen fade to white and the > gadgets appear with an animation, the mouse events are captured by > the big window so that you can't use your desktop until you repress > the key and the gadgets disappear... > > Do you think is the right way to do it? I have also a version that > make the big window shaped and you can use your desktop also when the > gadgets are showed. I'm not sure witch of the 2 is the better. So I > need your comment :) Yery nice. I like this module! > As usual you can find the download and more info on my site > http://www.gurumeditation.it/blog/?page_id=48 > > P.S. on the site will also find a new calculator completly done in > edje :) The calculator works nice with edje_editor, but if I open it with edje_viewer it doesn't work. What is the preferred way to run "self-hosting" edje application? Maybe a plain C application that does only load an edj from command line should be delivered with edje. Maybe with options to define the backend engine. What do you think? regards Andreas - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
[E-devel] [Announce] Gadman module
Hi all as someone of you know I'm working on a module to place gadgets on the desktop. It's ready for me! and now need your testing and your suggestion. Gadgets can simply stay on you desktop window, but can also be stacked over your windows; gadgets stacked ontop can be showed/hidden with a key (I use Super-G, you have to bind your). I need your commnts on how the gadgets placed on top should work. Now when you press the key the whole screen fade to white and the gadgets appear with an animation, the mouse events are captured by the big window so that you can't use your desktop until you repress the key and the gadgets disappear... Do you think is the right way to do it? I have also a version that make the big window shaped and you can use your desktop also when the gadgets are showed. I'm not sure witch of the 2 is the better. So I need your comment :) As usual you can find the download and more info on my site http://www.gurumeditation.it/blog/?page_id=48 P.S. on the site will also find a new calculator completly done in edje :) Thanks all Dave - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
