Re: [EVDL] Recommendations for push mower motor?

[Michael Ross]

Thanks, that was instructive.

When you say lead is the fuel - how does that work?  I wouldn't have
expected it unless it means the grids (my word for whatever they are
called. plates?) are bigger...

I guess you could make the grids heavier better life in severe conditions.
How do you know the extra weight is in grid area and not structure?

Or do I have the wrong idea altogether?


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 9:56 PM, EVDL Administrator  wrote:

> On 30 Apr 2014 at 20:36, Michael Ross wrote:
>
> > So what should I be paying for?  Weight? $/lb value?  $/Ah value?  I am
> > hoping at least for directed opinion.
>
> Who was it who categorized all falsehoods as lies, damn lines, and battery
> pitches?  I think it may have been Lee Hart. ;-)
>
> Especially with cheap, no-name batteries, amp-hour ratings can be iffy.
> There are many ways that battery salesmen can fudge the numbers.
>
> If you're a battery manufacturer, you can make a battery's capacity seem
> higher by rating it at a very slow discharge - perhaps C100 (100-hour
> discharge, common for PV systems for some reason) instead of the standard
> C20 (20 hour discharge).  OTOH, some of the good batteries are actually
> rated at C5.
>
> Or you can measure capacity at some absurdly high temperature that would
> degrade the battery in a few weeks if you actually used it that way.
>
> Or you can measure highly optimized lab samples made with high quality
> materials, but conveniently ignore the poorly made junk that actually comes
> off the asembly line.
>
> Or you can just outright lie about it.
>
> So I'd say that price/amp-hour is pretty iffy.
>
> Weight is a better indicator of real capacity.  Lead is your fuel.  Again,
> make sure your vendor is telling the truth!
>
> This can also change if you're drawing large currents.  You might find that
> a battery with a lower C20 capacity than another one actually has a higher
> C1 capacity.
>
> The factor which models capacity loss at high currents is the Peukert
> (pronounced POY-kairt) exponent.  If you have a capacity rating for your
> battery at two different currents, or if you have C20 and reserve capacity
> (and you can actually trust the manufacturer's rating), you can calculate
> the Peukert exponent with this calculator:
>
> http://evdl.org/uve/battery.html
>
> The lower the Peukert exponent, the more capacity the battery will have at
> high currents.  Some (but not all) AGM batteries can approach a Peukert
> exponent of 1.1.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. 
Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140430/c43726a2/attachment.htm>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Recommendations for push mower motor?

[EVDL Administrator]

On 30 Apr 2014 at 20:36, Michael Ross wrote:

> So what should I be paying for?  Weight? $/lb value?  $/Ah value?  I am
> hoping at least for directed opinion.

Who was it who categorized all falsehoods as lies, damn lines, and battery 
pitches?  I think it may have been Lee Hart. ;-)

Especially with cheap, no-name batteries, amp-hour ratings can be iffy.  
There are many ways that battery salesmen can fudge the numbers.  

If you're a battery manufacturer, you can make a battery's capacity seem 
higher by rating it at a very slow discharge - perhaps C100 (100-hour 
discharge, common for PV systems for some reason) instead of the standard 
C20 (20 hour discharge).  OTOH, some of the good batteries are actually 
rated at C5.

Or you can measure capacity at some absurdly high temperature that would 
degrade the battery in a few weeks if you actually used it that way.  

Or you can measure highly optimized lab samples made with high quality 
materials, but conveniently ignore the poorly made junk that actually comes 
off the asembly line.

Or you can just outright lie about it.

So I'd say that price/amp-hour is pretty iffy.

Weight is a better indicator of real capacity.  Lead is your fuel.  Again, 
make sure your vendor is telling the truth!

This can also change if you're drawing large currents.  You might find that 
a battery with a lower C20 capacity than another one actually has a higher 
C1 capacity.  

The factor which models capacity loss at high currents is the Peukert 
(pronounced POY-kairt) exponent.  If you have a capacity rating for your 
battery at two different currents, or if you have C20 and reserve capacity 
(and you can actually trust the manufacturer's rating), you can calculate 
the Peukert exponent with this calculator:

http://evdl.org/uve/battery.html

The lower the Peukert exponent, the more capacity the battery will have at 
high currents.  Some (but not all) AGM batteries can approach a Peukert 
exponent of 1.1.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVDL problems for Yahoo, AT&T, AOL users

[EVDL Administrator]

The above email providers are currently causing major headaches for all 
email discussion lists, including ours.  This page explains the problem much 
better than I can:

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/04/09/2047205/yahoo-dmarc-implementation-
breaks-most-mailing-lists

http://tinyurl.com/onolce6

AT&T uses Yahoo mail servers, so it has the same problem.  AOL has tagged 
along on this.  I've also seen indications that the Microsoft services 
(Hotmail, Live, Outlook.com) are rejecting some or all such messages.

This appears to potentially affect between 90 and 140 EVDL members.

A workaround in the list software is pending, but I haven't been able to get 
a firm commitment from the support crew on when it will be installed.  

Note that this Yahoo/AOL screwup breaks not only email discussion lists, but 
also forwarders and website mailtos and scripts. Thus IMO the right long 
term fix is for you to walk away from them and get a different email 
account.  

Currently gmail is not causing problems, but who knows for how long?  I'd 
recommend that you consider a smaller, independent email provider.

If you can't or don't want to switch email addresses, an interim workaround 
until the list is fixed is for you to change to digest mode.  (I notice that 
many of the above users are already on digest.)  

Instructions here:

http://evdl.org/help/index.html#dige

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Recommendations for push mower motor?

[Michael Ross]

So what should I be paying for?  Weight? $/lb value?  $/Ah value?  I am
hoping at least for directed opinion.

Has anyone ever bought one of these?   Are these manufacturers all full of
beans because they are not Deka, Gates,Enersys, Hawker, or Concorde?  I
thought they all come from just a few source factories?

Is there a reason not to buy a lower weight one for less $ and what appears
to be a better value point?

It is certain that none of these is a better choice than the others?  They
are all equal?

Seems like the pertinent metric is $/Ah, unless you have a particular need
for more Ah, then the "lesser" cells are a more valuable purchase.



On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 3:42 PM, EVDL Administrator  wrote:

> On 29 Apr 2014 at 13:03, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Gels are capable of long life; but only the very best premium brands
> > will in fact deliver it. Deka Dominators and Gates Cyclons are two that
> > I know will last.
>
> One of the Deka's secrets to long cycle life is that it's a rather severely
> acid-starved design.  This essentially forces you to limit discharge of the
> plates to 80% DOD.  It also makes potential buyers think "Wow, that seems
> like awfully low capacity for that size and weight of battery."
>
> The other is unusually tight manufacturing tolerance (consistency) and
> careful quality control.  Solectria Force owners routinely get 5-7 years of
> service from these batteries, and most don't use any kind of BMS (Solectria
> didn't include one).
>
> As with many other things, in batteries, you don't always get what you pay
> for, but you seldom get what you don't pay for.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. 
Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140430/ea34e230/attachment.htm>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Recommendations for push mower motor?

[EVDL Administrator]

On 29 Apr 2014 at 13:03, Lee Hart wrote:

> Gels are capable of long life; but only the very best premium brands 
> will in fact deliver it. Deka Dominators and Gates Cyclons are two that 
> I know will last. 

One of the Deka's secrets to long cycle life is that it's a rather severely 
acid-starved design.  This essentially forces you to limit discharge of the 
plates to 80% DOD.  It also makes potential buyers think "Wow, that seems 
like awfully low capacity for that size and weight of battery."

The other is unusually tight manufacturing tolerance (consistency) and 
careful quality control.  Solectria Force owners routinely get 5-7 years of 
service from these batteries, and most don't use any kind of BMS (Solectria 
didn't include one).

As with many other things, in batteries, you don't always get what you pay 
for, but you seldom get what you don't pay for.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] Off topic but probably close to our hearts... distributed generation

[Michael Ross]

Here is a nice article on the implementation of DG in Thailand.  Here in NC
under the shroud of Duke Energy, this stuff is anathema.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2014/04/distributed-generation-shines-in-thailand?cmpid=GeoNL-Thursday-April24-2014

-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. 
Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140430/e5562470/attachment.htm>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Recommendations for push mower motor?

[Michael Ross]

>>
> >>> Of 24 equally old Deka Dominator gels, I'm still using 16 (and a couple
> >>> others sit around).  Most have 60-90% of their rated capacity.
> >>>
> >>> One of the things I like about these batteries is how low their self
> >>> discharge is.  They need only very infrequent charging when in storage.
> >>>
> >>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> >>> EVDL Administrator
> >>>
> >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> >>> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> >>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> >> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
> >> *Dalai Lama *
> >>
> >> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> >> With your one wild and precious life?
> >> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
> >>
> >> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> >> Thomas A. Edison<
> http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
> >>
> >> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> >> *Warren Buffet*
> >>
> >> Michael E. Ross
> >> (919) 550-2430 Land
> >> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
> Phone
> >> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> >> (919) 513-0418 Desk
> >>
> >> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> >> 
> >> -- next part --
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140429/444c4ae3/attachment.htm
> >
> >> ___
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David D. Nelson
> > http://evalbum.com/1328
> > http://www.levforum.com
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. 
Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140430/0db3c435/attachment.htm>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Dealers Lack EV Knowledge and are Reluctant to Sell EVs

[Peri Hartman]

So, in short, I would have to conclude that people are buying EVs *in spite
of* dealership sales people.  In other words, as long as there are people
who specifically want an EV, EVs will be sold.  Beyond that - for the mass
public - something's going to have to change.

Peri

-Original Message-
From: ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf
Of brucedp5
Sent: 30 April, 2014 12:47 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Dealers Lack EV Knowledge and are Reluctant to Sell
EVs



http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/survey-dealers-lack-knowledge-and-are-reluc
tant-to-sel-1567020783/+orlove
Survey: Dealers Lack Knowledge and are Reluctant to Sell EV Cars
3,2419
by Automatch Tom  [2014/04/24]

[image  / Shutterstock
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Z3JKzk_D--/c_fit,fl_prog
ressive,w_636/693974440079139248.jpg
]

Elon Musk has maintained for the longest time that dealerships will sway
people away from EVs and into gas cars. He says, "...auto dealers have a
fundamental conflict of interest between promoting gasoline cars, which
constitute virtually all of their revenue, and electric cars, which
constitute virtually none."

This is part of his reasoning why Telsa does not want to franchise through
traditional dealerships. Personally, I always thought this logic was
incomplete and I still believe that the Model S is such a desirable car that
it would override, any resistance from sales-staff.

Perhaps Elon is right. Recently, Consumer Reports conducted a survey about
how dealers handle EV sales. CR used a number of secret shoppers who were
actively in the market for an EV/Plug-in model. These shoppers asked very
specific questions covering the following topics: "Tax breaks and other
incentives, vehicle charge time, cost, and options, vehicle range, and
battery life and warranty. They also asked the salespeople whether they
recommended buying or leasing."

Here are some highlights:

-Toyota salespeople, especially, were more likely to discourage the sale of
plug-in models and less likely to give accurate or specific answers to basic
questions about electric cars or to say they didn't know.

-A sales manager at Manhattan Ford in New York City, the only Ford
dealership actually owned by the automaker, at first denied there was a
Focus EV, and then said it couldn't be leased. Both statements are
incorrect.

-When asked about a Prius Plug-in, a salesperson at Star Toyota Scion of
Bayside, N.Y., would not even show our shopper the car, despite having one
in stock.

-Overall, our secret shoppers reported that only 13 dealers "discouraged
sale of EV," with seven of them being in New York. Most of those stores had
little to no inventory. However, at 35 of the 85 dealerships they visited,
our shoppers said salespeople recommended buying a gas-powered car instead.
Besides the standard Prius, a few of these cases seemed like reasonable
advice. For example, one salesperson suggested a Nissan SUV instead of a
Leaf when our shopper told him she had a commute that would stretch the
Leaf's range.

Lack of product knowledge, on the part of sales staff, is nothing new. Most
of us have rolled into a showroom only to know way more about a car than the
person selling it. But if EVs are really the future, CR's findings have two
very important implications both for car-buyers and manufacturers. If
shoppers really want to purchase an EV, they need to advocate for their
purchase much harder than gas powered car-buyer would. This also means that
car-makers who are spending serious money to develop EVs for public sale
need to be more involved in the dealer training so that these cars can get
fair exposure.

Update: Just had a Twitter conversation with a Porsche dealer who proudly
displays their Panamera-S Hybrid. I'm curious how the EV knowledge/promotion
changes at luxury car dealers as this survey just focuses on more mainstream
and "affordable" brands such as Toyota, Ford, and Nissan. In my experience
luxury sales staff tend to have much more knowledge about their products and
are more inclined to give the customer exactly what they want, EV or
otherwise.
[C jalopnik.com]




For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlSe
rvlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

EVLN: City sets rate for EV charging stations in Campbell, CA
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_25624867/city-sets-rate-electric-vehicle-charg
ing-stations-campbell

EVLN: Monster Tajima Returning To Pikes Peak In 2014
http://gas2.org/2014/04/24/monster-tajima-returning-pikes-peak-2014/

EVLN: Motivated EV Shoppers Find Dealerships Are Uninformed About EVs
http://www.plugincars.com/study-dealerships-need-be-more-informaed-about-ele
ctric-cars-129687.html
+
EVLN: Wozniak Pranks Internet> With His New Tesla-X


{brucedp.150m.com}



--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Dealers-La
ck-EV-Knowledg

Re: [EVDL] Crazy idea.

[jerry freedomev]

___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140429/ed19338a/attachment.htm>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140430/eb29a8aa/attachment.htm>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Recommendations for push mower motor?

[Michael K Johnson]

Even with peak hold, you're limited by the sampling rate
on the DMM.

My DMM has a clamp. I set it up to peak hold voltage, and
it showed no back EMF from my motor when I turned off
power, so I thought it had an internal flyback diode and
did not install one externally.

Then I used the clamp ammeter and peak hold, and I got
wildly different peak current measurements. That got me
to pull out the specifications and discover that the sampling
rate was lower than I expected, so peak hold wasn't very
meaningful regarding inrush current.

That has made me suspect that I need to add a flyback
diode too, even though I never detected any back EMF
with peak hold voltage.


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:15 AM, David Nelson  wrote:
> My B&D CMM1000 24V 19" mower, IIRC, pulls just under 10A when not
> cutting and something over 20A on initial surge on startup. I only
> have a digital clamp meter that doesn't react fast enough to know the
> peak current. Maybe I should look to see if it has a peak hold option.
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Michael Ross  
> wrote:
>> EVDL Dave R.,
>>
>> Comparing on a weight basis $/lb (on the theory that weigh goes with Pb
>> content which goes with quality of design and manufacture and looking at $/
>> Ah:
>>
>> *#113lb* $3.46/lb @ $45 17.2 Ah  *$2.62/Ah*
>> http://www.atbatt.com/genesis-np18-12-12v-172ah-sealed-lead-acid-battery-with-nb-terminal.asp?cr_brand=BB&cr_product=BP17-12#specifications
>> *Is this the "Hawker Genesis" you were talking about?*
>>
>> *#214lb* $3.57/lb @ $50 21.6Ah *$2.31/Ah*
>> this one weighs an additional pound for $5 more:
>> http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-psh-12180nb-fr-sealed-lead-acid-
>> battery.asp?cr_brand=BB&cr_product=BP17-12
>>
>> *#314.1lb* $4.15/lb @ $58.5 22Ah *$2.63/Ah*
>> http://www.atbatt.com/amstron-12v-22ah-electric-vehicle-agm-battery-nb-terminal.asp?cr_brand=BB&cr_product=BP17-12#specifications
>>
>> *#414.4lb* $4.38/lb @ $63 18Ah *$3.50/Ah*
>> http://www.atbatt.com/bb-bp18-12-12v-18ah-agm-battery-w-nb-terminal.asp?cr_brand=BB&cr_product=BP17-12#specifications
>>
>> *#514.5lb* $4.96/lb @ $72 20Ah *$3.60/Ah*
>> http://www.atbatt.com/bb-battery-hr22-12-sla-battery.asp?cr_brand=BB&cr_product=BP17-12
>>
>> *#615lb *$6.60/lb @ $100 20Ah* $5.00/Ah*
>> http://www.atbatt.com/bb-evp20-12-12v-20ah-agm-battery-w-nb-terminal.asp?cr_brand=BB&cr_product=BP17-12
>>
>> Raises all sorts of questions...
>>
>> Is #3 lying about the Ah?  Does the low weigh really me it is not as good
>> as say #5 which weighs a 180 grams more for an additional $14 each?
>>
>> On a pure money for performance basis one of the lowest weigh, least
>> expensive #2 seems like a good deal.  Can 21.6Ah be believed?
>>
>> Is there any merit at all to buying #6?  Its price point looks terrible,
>> but on the weight theory is is best.
>>
>> This is a great way for me to learn here, if you all are willing to chime
>> in...
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 1:11 PM, EVDL Administrator  wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 Apr 2014 at 12:06, Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>> > I have Enersys, Hawker, and Concorde AGMs that are now over 10 years old
>>> > and still delivering at least half of their original capacity. I also
>>> have
>>> > Gates, and Deka gels just as old that are still usable.
>>>
>>> I just recently retired the last of a batch of Hawker Genesis AGMs that
>>> dated from about 1997.  They were (well-) used when I got them.
>>>
>>> Of 24 equally old Deka Dominator gels, I'm still using 16 (and a couple
>>> others sit around).  Most have 60-90% of their rated capacity.
>>>
>>> One of the things I like about these batteries is how low their self
>>> discharge is.  They need only very infrequent charging when in storage.
>>>
>>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>> EVDL Administrator
>>>
>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>>> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
>> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
>> *Dalai Lama *
>>
>> Tell me what it is you plan to do
>> With your one wild and precious life?
>> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>>
>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>> Thomas A. 
>> Edison
>>
>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>> *Warren Buffet*
>>
>> Mic

[EVDL] EVLN: Wozniak Pranks Internet> With His New Tesla-X

[brucedp5]

No, Steve Wozniak hasn't got a Tesla Model X ... (yet)

http://transportevolved.com/2014/04/25/apple-cofounder-steve-wozniak-pranks-internet-new-tesla-model-x/
Apple CoFounder Steve Wozniak Pranks Internet With His New Tesla Model X
April 25, 2014  By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield 

[images  
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl8MS5CIcAAbAIn.jpg
Woz's Twitter image

http://media.transportevolved.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Screen-Shot-2014-02-26-at-14.25.02-580x405.png?c00b85
No, Steve Wozniak hasn't got a Tesla Model X... yet...
]

Apple CoFounder Steve ‘Woz’ Wozniak isn’t just the brains behind some of
Apple’s earliest computers: he’s a renowned prankster.

But he’s also among the great and good of the tech world, often getting the
kind of opportunities to try stuff that lesser beings like us aren’t allowed
anywhere near.

So when Woz posted a photograph of him standing next to a Tesla Model X
along with a caption which read “Our new Tesla!”, the Internet sat up and
paid attention.

It was of course, all a joke. We’ll explain.

The seven-seat all-electric crossover SUV is built on the same platform as
the popular Model S sedan, but comes with two — not one — electric motors
for all-wheel drive capabilities, and of course, those famous falcon wing
rear doors which give easy access to second and third-row seat passengers.

Woz, who purchased a Tesla Model S last year after originally ordering one,
then cancelling his order for a Mercedes S550 and finally changing his mind
back to Tesla, has been using the Foursquare social media app to check in at
Tesla Supercharger stations across the U.S. ever since he took delivery of
it in October last year. In most situations, his checkins are accompanied by
a tweet, and sometimes a photograph too.

Given the fact that Woz tweeted when he picked up his new car last year,
we’d forgive anyone who didn’t know Tesla’s production schedule for
believing he’d called in a special favor and got his Model X ahead of its
official launch.

But sadly, the Model X isn’t due to enter production until late 2014, and
not even Tesla Motors [NASDAQ:TSLA] CEO Elon Musk has one yet. Moreover,
Tesla isn’t in the habit of granting special favors to the good and great,
which it treats just like any other customer.

Over the years, Woz has built up quite a portfolio of pranks, carried out on
his own and also with the late Steve Jobs, his good friend and Apple
CoFounder. Some of the pranks were lighthearted — like sending a fake repair
bill for Woz’s Toyota Prius to Bill Gates. Others have bordered on the
illegal — like the phone phreaking blue box that Woz and Jobs used to make
long-distance prank phone calls for free.  Watch Woz reminisce about any of
them, and there’s a mischevious glint in his eye.

No, Steve Wozniak hasn’t got a Tesla Model X… yet…

The vehicle in this photo is of course the mockup model currently on display
at the Tesla Design Studio in Hawthorne LA, which is situated just behind
the SpaceX Hawthorne headquarters and has its own attached Supercharger
station.

Of course, Woz could have meant that he was standing next to the model of
the next car he intended to buy — in which case this little tweet might not
have been intended as a prank.  And since Woz’ garage currently includes a
Hummer H1, perhaps he’s looking for a four-wheel drive car which doesn’t
cost quite as much to fill up as the Humvee.

As for getting caught out? We didn’t: the model Woz is standing next to has
cameras instead of wing mirrors — a feature Tesla wanted to bring to the
production model but has so far failed to convince Federal safety
authorities to allow. When the production Model X launches later this year,
it will come with boring rear-view mirrors. At least for now…
[© 2014 Transport Evolved]




For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

EVLN: City sets rate for EV charging stations in Campbell, CA
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_25624867/city-sets-rate-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-campbell

EVLN: Monster Tajima Returning To Pikes Peak In 2014
http://gas2.org/2014/04/24/monster-tajima-returning-pikes-peak-2014/

EVLN: Motivated EV Shoppers Find Dealerships Are Uninformed About EVs
http://www.plugincars.com/study-dealerships-need-be-more-informaed-about-electric-cars-129687.html
+
EVLN: Dealers Lack EV Knowledge and are Reluctant to Sell EVs


{brucedp.150m.com}



--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Wozniak-Pranks-Internet-With-His-New-Tesla-X-tp4669310.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVLN: Dealers Lack EV Knowledge and are Reluctant to Sell EVs

[brucedp5]

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/survey-dealers-lack-knowledge-and-are-reluctant-to-sel-1567020783/+orlove
Survey: Dealers Lack Knowledge and are Reluctant to Sell EV Cars
3,2419
by Automatch Tom  [2014/04/24]

[image  / Shutterstock
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Z3JKzk_D--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/693974440079139248.jpg
]

Elon Musk has maintained for the longest time that dealerships will sway
people away from EVs and into gas cars. He says, "...auto dealers have a
fundamental conflict of interest between promoting gasoline cars, which
constitute virtually all of their revenue, and electric cars, which
constitute virtually none."

This is part of his reasoning why Telsa does not want to franchise through
traditional dealerships. Personally, I always thought this logic was
incomplete and I still believe that the Model S is such a desirable car that
it would override, any resistance from sales-staff.

Perhaps Elon is right. Recently, Consumer Reports conducted a survey about
how dealers handle EV sales. CR used a number of secret shoppers who were
actively in the market for an EV/Plug-in model. These shoppers asked very
specific questions covering the following topics: "Tax breaks and other
incentives, vehicle charge time, cost, and options, vehicle range, and
battery life and warranty. They also asked the salespeople whether they
recommended buying or leasing."

Here are some highlights:

-Toyota salespeople, especially, were more likely to discourage the sale of
plug-in models and less likely to give accurate or specific answers to basic
questions about electric cars or to say they didn't know.

-A sales manager at Manhattan Ford in New York City, the only Ford
dealership actually owned by the automaker, at first denied there was a
Focus EV, and then said it couldn't be leased. Both statements are
incorrect.

-When asked about a Prius Plug-in, a salesperson at Star Toyota Scion of
Bayside, N.Y., would not even show our shopper the car, despite having one
in stock.

-Overall, our secret shoppers reported that only 13 dealers "discouraged
sale of EV," with seven of them being in New York. Most of those stores had
little to no inventory. However, at 35 of the 85 dealerships they visited,
our shoppers said salespeople recommended buying a gas-powered car instead.
Besides the standard Prius, a few of these cases seemed like reasonable
advice. For example, one salesperson suggested a Nissan SUV instead of a
Leaf when our shopper told him she had a commute that would stretch the
Leaf's range.

Lack of product knowledge, on the part of sales staff, is nothing new. Most
of us have rolled into a showroom only to know way more about a car than the
person selling it. But if EVs are really the future, CR's findings have two
very important implications both for car-buyers and manufacturers. If
shoppers really want to purchase an EV, they need to advocate for their
purchase much harder than gas powered car-buyer would. This also means that
car-makers who are spending serious money to develop EVs for public sale
need to be more involved in the dealer training so that these cars can get
fair exposure.

Update: Just had a Twitter conversation with a Porsche dealer who proudly
displays their Panamera-S Hybrid. I'm curious how the EV knowledge/promotion
changes at luxury car dealers as this survey just focuses on more mainstream
and "affordable" brands such as Toyota, Ford, and Nissan. In my experience
luxury sales staff tend to have much more knowledge about their products and
are more inclined to give the customer exactly what they want, EV or
otherwise.
[© jalopnik.com]




For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

EVLN: City sets rate for EV charging stations in Campbell, CA
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_25624867/city-sets-rate-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-campbell

EVLN: Monster Tajima Returning To Pikes Peak In 2014
http://gas2.org/2014/04/24/monster-tajima-returning-pikes-peak-2014/

EVLN: Motivated EV Shoppers Find Dealerships Are Uninformed About EVs
http://www.plugincars.com/study-dealerships-need-be-more-informaed-about-electric-cars-129687.html
+
EVLN: Wozniak Pranks Internet> With His New Tesla-X


{brucedp.150m.com}



--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Dealers-Lack-EV-Knowledge-and-are-Reluctant-to-Sell-EVs-tp4669309.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)