Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge
Folks, I hate to say it, but maybe it's time to tie a knot in this thread. Plenty of good information has come to light, but I don't see any of the major players budging an inch. If you really think it's worth arguing more about this, by all means carry on -- but please do it via private (off-list) email. Thanks, David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla's new weapon is a battery scientist @dal.ca
'TCO Straubel signed Li-ion research agreement with dal.ca ' http://www.dal.ca/news/2015/06/17/charging-onward--dahns-next-move-marks-first-canadian-university.html Charging onward: Dahn’s next move marks first Canadian university collaboration with Tesla Motors Nikki Comeau - June 17, 2015 [image http://www.dal.ca/news/2015/06/17/charging-onward--dahns-next-move-marks-first-canadian-university/_jcr_content/image.adaptive.480.high.jpg/1434560376735.jpg Dalhousie University's Jeff Dahn (driver's seat) takes a Tesla Model S for a spin after signing a research agreement with Tesla Motors Co-founder and Chief Technology Officer, JB Straubel. (Daniel Abriel photos) http://www.dal.ca/news/2015/06/17/charging-onward--dahns-next-move-marks-first-canadian-university/_jcr_content/contentPar/dalphotogallery/featureSlider/featureslide/image.adaptive.480.high.jpg/1434559992298.jpg http://www.dal.ca/news/2015/06/17/charging-onward--dahns-next-move-marks-first-canadian-university/_jcr_content/contentPar/dalphotogallery/featureSlider/featureslide_0/image.adaptive.480.high.jpg/1434560021531.jpg ] When a Tesla Model S electric vehicle made an appearance at Dalhousie University yesterday, its near silent engine sound and sleek design prompted a symphony of “ohs and ahs” from impressed onlookers. But it was a brand new partnership between Tesla Motors and Dalhousie University that got members of the Dalhousie research community really excited. On Tuesday morning Tesla Motor’s Co-founder and Chief Technology Officer JB Straubel signed a research agreement with Dalhousie University’s Jeff Dahn, lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery researcher with the Faculty of Science and his group of students, postdoctoral researchers and technical staff. The work is set to begin in June of 2016. During a presentation to Dalhousie researchers and representatives, Straubel discussed the importance of the Li-ion battery to the future of Tesla Motors and the recently announced battery business Tesla Energy, a suite of batteries for homes, businesses, and utilities. The Silicon Valley giant is not just an automotive company, it’s an energy innovation company. “Dalhousie is a national and international leader in advanced materials and clean technology research,” says Martha Crago, Vice-President, Research at Dalhousie. “Jeff Dahn is helping to develop Li-ion batteries with improved lifetime, increased energy density and lower cost. This collaboration is a natural fit.” Creating a force with electric cars Consider the state of the art Li-ion battery that powers the Model S, which can accelerate to 100 km/h in under five seconds, and the electric car’s impressive engineering and design innovation really sinks in. Tesla Motors isn’t shy about its mission to accelerate the transition to sustainable transportation around the world. To do so, it plans to expand beyond a niche market and produce hundreds of thousands of cars a year and change the entire automotive industry. To drive this change, Tesla is building a Gigafactory in Nevada that aims to double world production of Li-ion batteries by 2020. In an effort to bring down the price of Tesla vehicles for the mass market, Tesla will manufacture Li-ion batteries with longer lifespans that cost less to create and be sourced with more materials from North America. When Dahn learned of Tesla’s planned Gigafactory, he wanted in. “I had to be a part of it,” says Dahn. “It’s the next step.” Currently, 3M Canada and the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC) fund Dahn’s Industrial Research Chair in Materials for Advanced Batteries. The agreement, long-standing since 1996, is set to end in June 2016. “I’m so thankful for 3M Canada and NSERC’s support over the years. We’ve had many successes together that have created products for 3M, which are key milestones in my career and in my students’ careers,” says Dahn. He references the development of the nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) positive electrode material—now used in the vast majority of electric vehicles and power tools around the world—as the most notable success of the partnership. Sustainable power The new collaboration, a first between the leading American electric vehicle company and a Canadian university, will bring together the teams of Dahn and Tesla’s Director of Battery Technology, Kurt Kelty. Both teams are committed to powering as much as possible with Li-ion batteries that pack a mean punch in the fight against climate change. Dahn, recognized as one of the pioneering developers of the Li-ion battery, explains that increasing the energy density of batteries through improved materials is the best way to achieve lower cost. “Our research group’s goal is to increase the energy density and lifetime of Li-ion batteries, so we can drive down costs in automotive and grid energy storage applications,” says Dahn. Charging onward Jeff Dahn has 25 researchers in his lab, including graduate students,
[EVDL] INR76k(US$1185) Prakash's IndoElectra 2seat nEV ts:42kph
'Prakash will later create a 4seat nEV design at a low cost'
http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/bengaluru/An-Inexpensive-Green-Vehicle/2015/06/17/article2870334.ece
An Inexpensive Green Vehicle
By Rahulraj S 17th June 2015
[image
http://media.newindianexpress.com/green-vehicle.jpg/2015/06/17/article2870332.ece/alternates/w1024/green%20vehicle.jpg
Prakash poses with IndoElectra
]
QUEEN’S ROAD: A PESCE (P.E.S. College of Engineering, Mandya ) student has
designed an affordable and eco-friendly electric car that runs at just 20
paise a kilometre.
K T Prakash, a final year automobile engineering student, was driven to
invent this car because of the urgent need to reduce pollution and save
scant resources like petrol. Prakash put his heart and soul into making the
IndoElectra, which he says can be made available for just Rs 76,000.
Although he worked independently on the project, with no financial
assistance from anyone, Prakash gives full credit to the faculty members of
the automobile engineering branch, to his parents and friends who encouraged
him and stood by him through the process.
Technical specifications of the two-seater car:
The IndoElectra can seat two people and is light in weight. It runs on an
electric motor of 200 watts and has a battery of 12 volts.
The car has expanding internal brakes and an independent suspension at the
front and the rear. A tubular chassis connects the front and the rear
suspension areas.
The car can reach a maximum speed of 42 km an hour with a 160kg payload on
level roads. When fully charged, it can run up to 50 km. Electric power
costs around Rs 10 for a single charge of the battery (three units).
The car is easy to drive because of the absence of a gear-shifting
mechanism. And the lightness and smaller size of the car makes it easy to
drive on city roads.
Unlike other cars which emit tailpipe pollutants like carbon-monoxide,
greenhouse gases, hydrocarbons and sulphur-dioxide, this car has no
emissions.
To upgrade the car, Prakash is working on a hydraulic operating system and a
more effective braking system. He is also working to spruce up the interiors
to increase passenger comfort.
Future project
Prakash is also modifying the current design to create a four-seater
electric car at a low cost that will be low maintenance and more economical
than petroleum powered vehicles.
About his four-seater project, Prakash says, “In India, we are facing so
many fuel and pollution related problems. Not all of us can afford the
expensive electric cars available in the market. The petrol money needed for
a two-wheeler can now be used to run this eco-friendly electric car because
it is safer to drive. The running cost is also less and it is compact and
easy to handle in congested urban areas.”
IndoElectra was Prakash’s dream project and he worked for five months
on the fabrication and re-engineering of the components ...
Prakash believes that if the government provides funding, technical as well
as industrial support, then the dream of mass-producing his car could turn
into a reality.
Fine print
A closer study of the car shows the need for an upgraded suspension system.
The travel range for a single battery charge could be improved.
Better safety and comfort for passengers could be developed. IndusElectra
could be the perfect amswer to the eternal quest for cheaper commuting
options,
[© newindianexpress.com]
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[EVDL] EVLN: Zombie222 electric 1968 Mustang 0-60mph:2s destroys Tesla-SP85D
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/electric-ford-mustang-performance-specs-pictures/
This Tesla-shredding electric 1968 Mustang does 0 to 60 in under 2 seconds
By Ronan Glon — June 17, 2015
[images
http://icdn5.digitaltrends.com/image/electric-1968-ford-mustang-zombie-222-11-970x546-c.jpg
video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCXuXDh9zrs
Zombie222 vs Tesla P85D
Jack LaPenta Jun 13, 2015
Zombie222 destroys Tesla P85D
]
A Texas-based enthusiast named Mitch Medford has teamed up with well-known
electric drag racer John Wayland to build an all-electric 1968 Ford Mustang
that’s capable of beating a top-spec Tesla Model S P85D on a drag strip.
Dubbed Zombie 222, Medford’s pony car looks like a mildly-modified Mustang
fastback from a distance but a quick peek under the hood reveals it’s
anything but. The stock 289-cubic-inch V8 engine has been tossed out and
replaced with a pair of electric motors rated at a total of 440 volts,
linked to a high-capacity battery pack designed specifically for the track.
The drivetrain sends over 800 horsepower and 1,800 foot-pounds of instant
torque to the rear wheels, enough to rocket the Mustang from zero to 62 mph
in just 1.94 seconds and on to a top speed of over 174 mph. To put those
figures into perspective, the now-defunct W16-powered Bugatti Veyron
performs the same task in roughly 2.5 seconds while the gasoline-electric
Porsche 918 Spyder takes approximately 2.8 seconds. Medford jokes his pony
car can “eat the brains of Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Maseratis and anything
that sounds like a pasta dish from Italy.”
What’s arguably more surprising than the coupe’s performance figures is the
fact that it has a full body, a full interior and it is fitted with regular
glass windows. In other words, it’s not simply a bare-bones, stripped-out
race car with a composite body designed to look like an old Mustang.
The story is a little different under the skin, though, where Medford’s team
has installed a Blistein front suspension and 13-inch Brembo brakes all
around in order to keep the insane amount of power in check.
The Mustang is fully street-legal — at least in Texas — and its driving
range varies from 40 to 140 miles depending on how big of a battery pack
it’s fitted with.
Medford has founded a company called Bloodshed Motors because he believes
there’s a niche market for electric muscle cars and other classics. Going
green isn’t cheap, however, and he has previously hinted that converting a
vintage American car into a Ferrari-beating electric vehicle is expected to
cost between $200,000 and $250,000. Thankfully, those figures include the
price of the donor vehicle.
“Initially, we’ll supply the cars to convert, then later we’ll convert cars
that our customers supply. We don’t want to start with rust buckets or
reproduction bodies just because we don’t want to spend the time fixing rust
or piecing the car together,” explained Medford in an earlier interview with
enthusiast magazine Hemmings.
Those who can’t afford a Mustang with a six-digit price tag will need to be
patient. If all goes according to plan, Medford will eventually sell all of
the parts required for the conversion in kit form.
[© digitaltrends.com]
...
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/revology-mustang/
Revology’s resto-modded first-gen Mustang
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S.Korea to export nEVs to EuroJp markets copying Toyota
http://www.newsminer.com/features/our_town/plugging-away-uaf-charges-ahead-with-electric-shuttle-bus/article_b74291e0-124f-11e5-a25b-37b93988a6d0.html
uaf.edu 12seat ebus r:50mi ts:25mph Fairbanks-AK
http://www.clickz.com/clickz/news/2412612/macys-and-whole-foods-bring-free-electric-car-charging-to-the-west-coast
Volta EVSE with Macy's and Whole Foods Ads all over the West Coast
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EVLN: Tesla's new weapon is a dal.ca battery scientist
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[EVDL] EVLN: TomTom integrates plugin battery data into Webfleet tool
http://www.businesscar.co.uk/news/2015/tomtom-telematics-integrates-battery-data-into-webfleet-tool
TomTom Telematics integrates battery data into Webfleet tool
18 June 2015 | Daniel Puddicombe
TomTom's telematics has partnered with IT company AttainIT to integrate
electric car battery data and car booking software into the navigation
giant's Webfleet fleet management system.
The companies said the integration would help electric car-sharing companies
to manage their vehicle fleets more efficiently.
Italian car-sharing company Be Smart has adopted the technology, TomTom
said.
The company allows the customer to rent a vehicle by the minute via an app,
drop off and pick up cars in city centre locations in Naples and Milan.
The data allows the car-sharing company to check remaining battery power in
each car at any given moment, activate cars remotely and track the car's
location for accurate billing.
This is a strong example of how open-source programmes can open doors to
exciting new product opportunities, bringing software entrepreneurs and
industry fleet operators closer together, said Taco van der Leij, VP
marketing, TomTom Telematics. By offering an open platform, we want to
drive product innovation and create opportunities not just for ourselves but
for our partners and customers too.
[© businesscar.co.uk]
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Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge
I am not talking about LFP, I have no literature that is current about LFP. I have been talking more generally about LiMO2. All I have seen is contradictory, anecdotal info on LFP. Jack Richard doesn't think they have spontaneous loss of charge - and onl;y a small loss of SOC from sitting - 1% a year. I am sure with all chemistries there are poorly built and formed cells that are inferior. I am willing to bet, since the negative electrode is the same, and functions by intercalating li ions (which are agnostic once loosed from the positive electrode that there is no difference. WHether or not the negative electrode incorporates graphene or not, that only reflects on the number of intercalation sites. Does someone think that the negative electrode in LFP cells operates without intercalation? On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 12:52 AM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Michael Ross wrote: It is like a bunch of people simply don't want to understand that things are not uniform across the field, that there is old tech that is being surpassed, and that some things are turning out very well. I would restate, I think it is possible that people don't recognise that some old and inferior cell designs do not represent what is possible, demonstrable and manufacturable. It seems you are ready to conveniently ignore the literature that you are happy to quote to others. There may or may not be something new about LiFePO4 chemistry that renders it immune to self-discharge, however, if there is, it is *not* the simple fact that lithium intercalation is involved, and this is something that you have been stating/purporting. Again, I refer you to your copy of Linden's Handbook of Batteries, which clearly states and quantifies self-discharge amounts for various lithium chemistries that *all* also rely upon lithium intercalation. If your claim is that something about LiFePO4 (in general, in theory, or some specific example?) that makes it immune to self-discharge, please make this clear in your posts, and accept that whatever this property is, it is not simply that LiFePO4 (like those other 'old and inferior [lithium] cell designs') relies upon lithium intercalation. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150624/6949ca9e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge
Why would you stop it? This is certainly not like the H2 fuel discussions - not currently related to EVs. I liked those too from a philosophical POV This is a semi technical list - I don't get why a difference of opinions cannot involve a long running topic. I delete emails all the time that I do not care about, or have time for. I have no sympathy for the urge to get other people to stop talking about a subject that interests them. Not interested? Then don't read it. This topic is pertinent, it is being carried on with civility (not that that seems pertinent), it is interesting and ideas are being presented and the answers important. You know the conversation will not survive off list; you would just be killing it whether you admit it or not. I still want to hear how intercalation id not working - in LFP cells I guess, but I want to understand that. I am trying to follow up on the provided information from contrary sources (to my own); it takes time when no specific literature is presented. If there is a problem it is that there is rehashing because long conversations have newcomers that may not have been present or paying close attention at the start. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:58 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: I am not talking about LFP, I have no literature that is current about LFP. I have been talking more generally about LiMO2. All I have seen is contradictory, anecdotal info on LFP. Jack Richard doesn't think they have spontaneous loss of charge - and onl;y a small loss of SOC from sitting - 1% a year. I am sure with all chemistries there are poorly built and formed cells that are inferior. I am willing to bet, since the negative electrode is the same, and functions by intercalating li ions (which are agnostic once loosed from the positive electrode that there is no difference. WHether or not the negative electrode incorporates graphene or not, that only reflects on the number of intercalation sites. Does someone think that the negative electrode in LFP cells operates without intercalation? On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 12:52 AM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Michael Ross wrote: It is like a bunch of people simply don't want to understand that things are not uniform across the field, that there is old tech that is being surpassed, and that some things are turning out very well. I would restate, I think it is possible that people don't recognise that some old and inferior cell designs do not represent what is possible, demonstrable and manufacturable. It seems you are ready to conveniently ignore the literature that you are happy to quote to others. There may or may not be something new about LiFePO4 chemistry that renders it immune to self-discharge, however, if there is, it is *not* the simple fact that lithium intercalation is involved, and this is something that you have been stating/purporting. Again, I refer you to your copy of Linden's Handbook of Batteries, which clearly states and quantifies self-discharge amounts for various lithium chemistries that *all* also rely upon lithium intercalation. If your claim is that something about LiFePO4 (in general, in theory, or some specific example?) that makes it immune to self-discharge, please make this clear in your posts, and accept that whatever this property is, it is not simply that LiFePO4 (like those other 'old and inferior [lithium] cell designs') relies upon lithium intercalation. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150624/659b7c65/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla's new weapon is a battery scientist @dal.ca
a
mean punch in the fight against climate change.
Dahn, recognized as one of the pioneering developers of the Li-ion
battery,
explains that increasing the energy density of batteries through
improved
materials is the best way to achieve lower cost.
“Our research group’s goal is to increase the energy density and
lifetime
of
Li-ion batteries, so we can drive down costs in automotive and grid
energy
storage applications,” says Dahn.
Charging onward
Jeff Dahn has 25 researchers in his lab, including graduate students,
postdoctoral researchers and technical staff. All of them will be
involved
in the partnership. As the next generation of battery researchers, they
get
invaluable exposure to a leading industry partner committed to the
worldwide
benefits of electrifying the world through innovative batteries.
For now, Dahn continues to work with 3M Canada until their current
research
agreement ends in June 2016. Then, Dahn and his research group will
begin
their exclusive five-year partnership with Tesla.
[© dal.ca]
http://fortune.com/2015/06/17/meet-teslas-new-weapon-a-battery-scientist/
Meet Tesla's new weapon, a battery scientist
[June 17, 2015]
...
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2015/06/18/will-teslas-research-deal-with-canadian-battery.html
Will Tesla's research deal with Canadian battery expert drive down ...
Silicon Valley Business Journal-5 minutes ago
Tesla has made another important step toward cheaper and more powerful
batteries. The Palo Alto-based electric car company entered into an
exclusive ...
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S.Korea to export nEVs to EuroJp markets copying Toyota
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uaf.edu 12seat ebus r:50mi ts:25mph Fairbanks-AK
http://www.clickz.com/clickz/news/2412612/macys-and-whole-foods-bring-free-electric-car-charging-to-the-west-coast
Volta EVSE with Macy's and Whole Foods Ads all over the West Coast
+
EVLN: Zombie222 1968 Mustang EV 0-60mph:2s destroys Tesla-SP85D EV
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Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html
A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google
Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Zombie222 electric 1968 Mustang 0-60mph:2s destroys Tesla-SP85D
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 4:26 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A Texas-based enthusiast named Mitch Medford has teamed up with well-known electric drag racer John Wayland to build an all-electric 1968 Ford Mustang that’s capable of beating a top-spec Tesla Model S P85D on a drag strip. I continue to be baffled by the drag guys' fascination with comparing a highly - and specifically - modified race car to a stock-and-standard high performance OEM car. Sure, the racer can go to the store just like the OEM, but that is not what it was built for. They completely ignore the value of all the time it took to get the race car to the point where it could beat the OEM. The Zombie is probably a 1/4 million dollar car if you paid everyone for their time. They also ignore the fact that if Tesla knew they were going to go drag racing and could prepare for it, they could simply swap controllers and do a few other minor tweaks and be in the hunt. What would a Tesla do with the amps coming from those twin Zillas? This whole exercise seems rather childish. I beat Corvettes and Ferraris on the street all the time in my wife's Honda Accord. Of course the results might be different if those guys knew they were racing. Chris -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150624/1137bfad/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells
If you have a bike with no BMS and you are monitoring the cells that should be all the data you need to decide if a BMS is necessary. Not what others tell you. What are you observations of the cells Sent from my iPad On Jun 23, 2015, at 6:29 PM, damon henry via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks Cor, for the information. I thought I would like to play with these, but maybe not due to some of the concerns you bring up. I currently have 16 60ahr calb cells I am learning with on my motorcycle with no BMS. The investment in this small of pack is not huge and hands on learning is worthwhile, so I don't mind being my own BMS in this case. I would eventually like to put Calb cells in my truck. I will likely install a BMS in my truck as that will be a larger investment and more cells to try and keep track of manually. Right now I am leaning towards Orion. So the Zener balancers were just going to be for experimenting and observation. I understand the risks of not installing a BMS, but it is always interesting comparing that against the risk of having something permanently wired across your cells. damon Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:18:42 -0700 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells From: ev@lists.evdl.org Lee has discussed this in the past, it is likely in the archives. I see three main issues: - at lower voltage, the zener knee gets very soft so unless you use additional electronics to amplify, the zener itself does not work very well on a single cell as you already indicated, two cells might indeed be better since around 6V the zeners have the best characteristics but that introduces issues with imbalance between the two cells - Voltage differences while charging are very small with most types of Lithium. 3.2V at rest but 3.5V is over-charging a LiFePO4 cell whereas a flooded/AGM lead-acid battery can easily go from 12V to 15V and it does not hurt them to be sitting at 15V while balancing for an hour. - leakage and failure: while zeners are supposed to go on at a certain voltage, they will leak below that voltage so you are introducing extra self-discharge which can very per cell with the properties of the zener, so in a sense you are making the situation for Li-Ion worse. Also zeners can fail (shorted typically) and mechanically fail and the Lithium cells will not take well to being over-charged due to a failure Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of damon henry via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 10:37 AM To: EV List Subject: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells Hi, I am wondering if anyone has adapted Lee Hart's Zener regulators for lithium cell use. I don't think the voltage of one cell is high enough to use this type of device on, but I think proper values can be found to regulate two cells in series. I would love to experiment with some of these and would like full bypass at 6.8 volts. I believe the 12 volt model can be tweaked by picking appropriate replacement Zener diodes, but I don't do a lot of this type of design, so I am not familiar with what is available or where to source the parts. Any help would be appreciated. thanks Damon Here is a link to Lee's design.http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm#zenerlamp -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150623/2b159354/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150623/212b619a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please
Re: [EVDL] Voltage sensing shut off switch
/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150624/984d4fa2/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge
Roger Stockton via EV wrote: I think that it is possible that people are confusing *theoretical* cell chemistry with that of *practical* cells. I think that is exactly the case. In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. -- Albert Einstein Of course there is an electric field inside a battery. Without an electric field, there would be no voltage, and you wouldn't have a battery. By definition, an electric field exists whenever there is a voltage difference between two points. The electric field provides the force that moves electrons and ions (polarized molecules) between plus and minus sides of the cell. These charges *will* find a way to leak. An analogy: The designers may *think* their wonderful new concrete dam doesn't leak a drop. But the tourist notices that the walls of the canyon below it are wet, and the farmer notices the change in ground water at his wells. The pressure is there, and the water *will* find ways around the dam, whether you like it or not. The important *practical* consideration is whether this leakage matters, or not. In a pacemaker, an ultra-low self-discharge rate is important (so they don't have to cut you open every few years to replace the battery)! In an EV that you can plug in any time you like, it's not very important. So, can we go back to discussing the practical aspects of EVs now? -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Voltage sensing shut off switch
pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Le e Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150624/984d4fa2 /attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150624/de20906f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Voltage sensing shut off switch
damon henry via EV wrote: Has anyone ever made a circuit to shut off a switch once a predetermined voltage limit has been hit while charging. I would love to work on something small that is easy to carry. It would plug directly into a standard Nema 15 120 volt 15 amp receptacle and have it's own Nema 15 receptacle for a charger to plug into. It would have a voltage sensing input I could use to monitor my pack voltage and once a predetermined voltage limit was hit, the circuit would open and latch so that the charger stopped charging until everything was manually reset. I'm sure there are a million simple ways to get this done. Yes; this is indeed an easy problem to solve. :-) Charge your EV with an extension cord with a built-in GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter). Or, put a GFCI in an outlet box with a male plug on the back and the female socket (that's part of the GFCI) on the front. The circuit that senses pack voltage will generate a ground fault, which orders the GFCI to turn off. It looks like this (here comes some bad old ASCII art -- view it with a fixed-width font like Courier): pack+___. . . /\/\___ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \/\/\/ | . R2. . | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R1 1K . ^ . .| . 1K. ._|_/ D1 one or more zener diodes that . trimpot ||. . . .//_\ . . add up to a few volts less your . to adjust voltage . . .|. . . desired turn-off voltage . where it switches . . .|_ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _|. K1 a small relay with a . . . . . . . . . . . . . _|. 5-12vdc, 10-20ma coil. It . . . . . . . . . . . . . _|. will pull in at about 2-5vdc. pack-| AC hot_/\/\||AC ground . . . . . . R3 . . || . . . . . . 10K. . K1's normally-open contact The dots are just there to keep smart-alec email programs from replacing multiple spaces with a single space. If you can't figure out how to view anything with a fixed-width font, the circuit is very simple. It's a trimpot R1, a fixed resistor R2, a zener D1, and a relay coil K1 all in series. When the pack reaches the desired shut-off voltage, the zener conducts, current flows in the relay coil, and it pulls in. The normally-open contact of K1 closes, connecting R3 from AC hot to ground. This creates a ground fault, and the GFCI turns off! -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
