Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Luke Scharf via EV]

Has anyone done anything like Richard Factor's PriUPS, except with the GM
2-Mode hybrid?

Thanks,
-Luke

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 3:25 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> redscooter via EV wrote:
> > I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the
> prius
> > can do this meaning, turn the car on,  turn off all the extra loads, turn
> > on invertor. Which years or gen /s  will stay on and keep charging the 12
> > vdc battery??  some talked about using the manal key to lock the doors.
>
> I have a 2001 Prius, and my son has a 2014 Prius. We really don't have
> to do anything special to power an inverter. Just leave the key "on"
> with the car in "ready", and the ICE will start and stop as necessary to
> keep the 12v battery charged.
>
> Small inverters (under 100w) can be plugged into the 12v accessory
> outlet. Larger ones should be connected directly to the battery with
> heavy wires, as they can draw a significant amount of current.
>
> Bob Bruninga has done a significant amount of work on Prius with
> inverters. Check out his website for details and ideas
> <http://www.aprs.org/aprs-swer.html>. He's on this list, so perhaps
> he'll chime in with more information. :-)
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>   - something to do
>   - something to look forward to
>   - someone to love
>   - someone to take good care of
>   - and misbehave, just a little
>   --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Lee is right that small cars HAVE had some modest success in the US, mostly 
for non-US manufacturers.  

I think the problem is that US automakers just don't want to bother with 
modest success.

Maybe it's not entirely that they don't want to, but also that they can't.  
In recent decades we've seen large institutional stockholders demanding ever 
larger short-term returns.  If the execs deliver them, they're rewarded with 
eye-watering salaries, bonuses, and stock options.  If they don't, they're 
shown the door.

That's an incentive to forget next year, let alone next decade, and focus on 
the highest possible profits for this quarter.  Hence bigger vehicles, which 
yield bigger profits.

Willie wonders why that's so.  I'm not an insider, but I think it's because 
a lot of the cost of building vehicles is labor, and it doesn't take much if 
any less labor to build a small car than a large one. But buyers perceive 
more value in a large vehicle, so large vehicles can be priced higher 
relative to production cost.

I might add parenthetically that I think one reason that Detroit is so hot 
for pickup trucks is that "new" models are even cheaper than cars to 
develop. Pickups haven't fundamentally changed since Ford added independent 
front suspension in 1965, so there's no significant engineering. Tweak the 
sheet metal a little; make new grille and taillight molds; raise the 
suspension another 2"; add more exhaust rumble, big phallic tailpipes, and 
some chrome trim; et voila - a "new" pickup with a 10% higher price.

The world event that turbocharged US small-car sales was the 1974 Mideast 
oil embargo.  It caught GM, Ford, and Chrysler flat-footed.  They had square 
miles of lots filled with 13mpg bloatmobiles, and no small efficient cars 
that anyone wanted to buy.  (Can you say "Ford Pinto" and "Chevy Vega"?)

Toyota and Nissan stepped in with 28mpg cars (1974 Nissan billboard: "Datsun 
saves - about a gallon a day") and the US discovered how GOOD Japanese 
vehicles were.  GM/Ford/Chrysler lost market share and positioning that they 
never fully recovered.

Today it might be corporate attitude or their stockholders, but whatever it 
is, GM, Ford, and Fiat/Chrysler just don't seem to give a hoot about EVs.  
Look here and tell me if you see them anywhere:

https://carsalesbase.com/european-sales-2020-q1-ev-phev/

(In case you don't know, GM sold Opel to the French PSA Group in 2017.)

I can't say for sure that we'll have an EV-boosting equivalent of the 1974 
oil embargo, or when, though I'm pretty sure the world's oil supply isn't 
infinite. 

But if and when something like that does happen, the big three (and maybe 
Toyota too this time) are going to get blindsided again.

That's when Tesla will become the #1 US automaker, provided that they have a 
nice range of EVs that the world still wants, and haven't sold out, moved to 
China, or been sued into oblivion.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Nowadays it's not important if a story's real.  The only
 thing that really matters is whether people click on it.

  -- Neetzan Zimmerman of Gawker
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I agree completely, but thought that it was the opposite of shaming. They just 
thought that they were missing out on the new craze.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jul 25, 2020, at 1:48 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/25/20 11:02 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Sure.  Small cars don't sell well here.  They never have.  it's cultural.
>> America is the land of the supersized.
> 
> It wasn't foreordained.  I see several factors that has led us, as a country, 
> astray.
> 
> 1) At the top of the list is cheap oil.  Cheap gasoline and diesel. Almost 
> certainly, a result of government policy.
> 
> 2) Legacy auto makers have not wanted to make or sell small cars.  Auto 
> makers make more profit on large cars than on small.  I can not offer a 
> reason that that is so.
> 
> 3) Very effective advertising targeted at a not very discriminating audience. 
>  Many accept advertising premises without logical scrutiny. "Bigger is 
> better".  "This year's model is an improvement over last year's because it is 
> bigger".  Have you ever seen advertising such as: "This year's model is 
> better because it is more efficient (or smaller, or lighter)"?
> 
> 4) A relatively poorly educated populace.  Most college graduates have not 
> had a physics course.  They don't understand energy flows in vehicle 
> operation.  Of course, the poor education also ties into 3).  Critical 
> thinking is relatively rare.
> 
> But, I agree small cars are currently a hard sell in the USA.  Refusing to 
> advertise is only one of Tesla's admirable policies.
> 
> 
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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20200727

[evln via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-spied-Kia-e-SUV-with-swoopy-camouflage-tp4698279.html
EVLN: (spied) Kia e-SUV with swoopy camouflage
Swoopy Kia Electric SUV spied with heavy camouflage
July 18, 2020  It appears to be derived from last year's Futuron concept. 11
... That’s how many electric vehicles Kia will introduce globally by the
middle of the decade across various segments of the market, including SUVs,
minivans, and other body styles. Leading the way will be an EV slated to
come out in Europe next year sitting on a newly developed platform tailored
to zero-emissions vehicles ...
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB16UphA.img


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-confirmed-Chevy-Electric-Truck-With-400-Mile-Range-tp4698280.html
EVLN: (confirmed)> Chevy Electric Truck With 400-Mile Range
GM Is Planning an All-Electric Chevy Truck With 400 Miles of Range
JUL 24, 2020  Details are slim, but Chevy's full-size EV pickup is
definitely coming ... the unnamed truck "will be the brand's first full-size
pickup," and offer 400-plus miles of range on a single charge ... trucks are
at least a year away from production ...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a33415643/electric-chevy-truck-with-400-miles-of-range-confirmed/


+
JCB’s Mini e-Excavator Wins Award

.cn aggression affecting .in EV development

Yorkshire_.uk-based twistedautomotive.com creates EV jobs


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/choffinctc-com-EV-instructor-wanted4-lordstownmotors-com-jobs-tp4698229.html
choffinctc.com EV instructor wanted4 lordstownmotors.com jobs
JobsNow: Choffin looking to hire instructor with understanding of electric
vehicles
Jul 21, 2020 ... Choffin needs an instructor who knows and can handle
electric or hybrid vehicles ... Choffin envisions helping students
understand electric theory and filling that niche with Lordstown Motors
coming to town. That way, students could be ready for an entry-level job ...
“At least having that base knowledge of electric vehicle is what we're going
to focus on, so they have the diversity to go in any direction but the
immediate needs are going to be the technician side of it ...
(video  flash)




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EVLN: (confirmed)> Chevy Electric Truck With 400-Mile Range

[evln via EV]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a33415643/electric-chevy-truck-with-400-miles-of-range-confirmed/
GM Is Planning an All-Electric Chevy Truck With 400 Miles of Range
JUL 24, 2020  Details are slim, but Chevy's full-size EV pickup is
definitely coming ... the unnamed truck "will be the brand's first full-size
pickup," and offer 400-plus miles of range on a single charge ... trucks are
at least a year away from production ...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a33415643/electric-chevy-truck-with-400-miles-of-range-confirmed/

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-GM-Chevrolet-Silverado-EV-pickup-BET-Truck-r-650km-tp4698204.html
]


+ (.cn aggression affecting .in EV development)
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/india-china-border-tensions-could-choke-funds-for-electric-vehicle-startups-report-5531741.html
India-China border tensions could choke funds for electric vehicle startups:
Report
Jul 10, 2020  Investors have pulled back from sectors too dependent on China
given the shaky geopolitical scenario ...
Indian and Chinese troops clashed in the Galwan Valley, Ladakh near the Line
of Actual Control (LAC) in June. As many as 20 Indian army personnel were
killed in the scuffle, post which India banned 59 Chinese mobile
applications and imposed increased scrutiny on imports and investments from
the northern neighbour ... 
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Indian+Chinese+troops+Galwan+Valley+Ladakh




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EVLN: (spied) Kia e-SUV with swoopy camouflage

[evln via EV]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/autos/news/swoopy-kia-electric-suv-spied-with-heavy-camouflage/ar-BB16UphK
Swoopy Kia Electric SUV spied with heavy camouflage
July 18, 2020  It appears to be derived from last year's Futuron concept. 11
... That’s how many electric vehicles Kia will introduce globally by the
middle of the decade across various segments of the market, including SUVs,
minivans, and other body styles. Leading the way will be an EV slated to
come out in Europe next year sitting on a newly developed platform tailored
to zero-emissions vehicles ...
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB16UphA.img


+ (JCB’s Mini e-Excavator Wins Award)
https://www.rermag.com/news-analysis/supply-side/article/21136606/jcbs-quiet-electric-mini-excavator-wins-macrobert-award
JCB’s Quiet Electric Mini Excavator Wins MacRobert Award
Jul 14, 2020  The UK’s Royal Academy of Engineering has today announced that
JCB’s ultra-quiet and zero emissions 19C-1E electric mini-excavator has won
the 2020 MacRobert Award ...
https://base.imgix.net/files/base/ebm/rermag/image/2020/07/JCB_2020_low_noise_and_zero_emissions_19C_1E_mini_excavator_.5f0def1325662.png




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] Looking to sell my over done eGO scooter

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

5k worth of components in a scooter is overkill but it works great. Need to 
make room for my electric recumbent. 
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bik/d/san-francisco-electric-cycle/7165866342.html
 Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Faking out your EV so it will accept solar input while driving.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  Commercially available Sunpower cells. Panels will not work.


Well, they could. Some of Sunpower's panels are flexible. They also sell 
the cells separately, but using them is a LOT more work (the sort of 
things that the solar raycer teams will do). Sometimes the perfect is 
the enemy of the good enough. :-)


Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

So, those are such great cars that sell well - why aren't they being sold in
the US? Could it possibly be because the demand for small cars isn't there?


Sure.  Small cars don't sell well here.  They never have.  it's cultural.
America is the land of the supersized.


I wouldn't go that far. Toyota, Honda, VW, Hyundai etc. have all sold a 
lot of small cars in the USA, and made lots of money doing it. The US 
automaker have just not been as successful doing it. They make more 
money selling big vehicles. So, they've used their marketing savvy to 
convince people that "You don't want some little econobox; you want a 
big huge truck or SUV."



There's a lot of world and a lot of EV demand outside of North America.
Tesla had better hop to it.  Otherwiase the big guys are going to leave them
nothing but some bread crumbs and a few celery sticks.


Right. So far, Tesla has only been aiming for the US luxury market. Just 
as GM, Ford, and Chrysler left the small car market wide-open for 
Toyota, Honda, and VW in the past; Tesla is leaving the small car market 
wide open for the Chinese or whoever the next big economy car maker will 
be in the future.


Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/25/20 11:02 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:


Sure.  Small cars don't sell well here.  They never have.  it's cultural.
America is the land of the supersized.


It wasn't foreordained.  I see several factors that has led us, as a 
country, astray.


1) At the top of the list is cheap oil.  Cheap gasoline and diesel. 
Almost certainly, a result of government policy.


2) Legacy auto makers have not wanted to make or sell small cars.  Auto 
makers make more profit on large cars than on small.  I can not offer a 
reason that that is so.


3) Very effective advertising targeted at a not very discriminating 
audience.  Many accept advertising premises without logical scrutiny. 
"Bigger is better".  "This year's model is an improvement over last 
year's because it is bigger".  Have you ever seen advertising such as: 
"This year's model is better because it is more efficient (or smaller, 
or lighter)"?


4) A relatively poorly educated populace.  Most college graduates have 
not had a physics course.  They don't understand energy flows in vehicle 
operation.  Of course, the poor education also ties into 3).  Critical 
thinking is relatively rare.


But, I agree small cars are currently a hard sell in the USA.  Refusing 
to advertise is only one of Tesla's admirable policies.



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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Lee Hart via EV]

redscooter via EV wrote:

I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the prius
can do this meaning, turn the car on,  turn off all the extra loads, turn
on invertor. Which years or gen /s  will stay on and keep charging the 12
vdc battery??  some talked about using the manal key to lock the doors.


I have a 2001 Prius, and my son has a 2014 Prius. We really don't have 
to do anything special to power an inverter. Just leave the key "on" 
with the car in "ready", and the ICE will start and stop as necessary to 
keep the 12v battery charged.


Small inverters (under 100w) can be plugged into the 12v accessory 
outlet. Larger ones should be connected directly to the battery with 
heavy wires, as they can draw a significant amount of current.


Bob Bruninga has done a significant amount of work on Prius with 
inverters. Check out his website for details and ideas 
. He's on this list, so perhaps 
he'll chime in with more information. :-)


Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 Jul 2020 at 7:52, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> So, those are such great cars that sell well - why aren't they being sold in
> the US? Could it possibly be because the demand for small cars isn't there?

Sure.  Small cars don't sell well here.  They never have.  it's cultural. 
America is the land of the supersized.

I'm not saying Tesla's strategy was wrong, just that they're already pretty 
late to the small-affordable-EV table.  

There's a lot of world and a lot of EV demand outside of North America.  
Tesla had better hop to it.  Otherwiase the big guys are going to leave them 
nothing but some bread crumbs and a few celery sticks.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in 
 a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the 
 attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the 
 gods give you everything you ask for."  I have no idea about 
 its authenticity.  

-- Terry Pratchett 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and
the cost of NOT doing so did it.


Willie via EV wrote:> Well, "the cost of NOT doing so" is, at least in 
part, from the threat

of losing their ICE market.  That, due to Tesla success in developing
the EV market.  I would consider that "shamed" into getting into the USA
EV market.


I certainly saw the shaming in the automotive press. Before Tesla, EVs 
were considered slow, boring "golf carts". Totally uncool! The auto 
magazines made fun of them. Pundits said EVs could never sell, never 
make money without mandates.


Then along comes Tesla. They proved the critics wrong. "EVs are fast! 
EVs are fun! EVs have cool features that no ICE has! I want one!" They 
were beating the ICEs at their own game, and taking the top ratings in 
reviews.


The auto companies certainly felt it. And they reacted to it. They feel 
they are losing business to Tesla. They have to get "back in the game", 
and produce really good EVs... or Tesla is going to walk all over them.


Lee Hart
--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] prius as generator

[redscooter via EV]

I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the prius
can do this meaning, turn the car on,  turn off all the extra loads, turn
on invertor. Which years or gen /s  will stay on and keep charging the 12
vdc battery??  some talked about using the manal key to lock the doors.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

By the cost of NOT doing so, I didn’t mean their ICE market. I meant cost of 
credits, costs of non-compliance.

One important thing Tesla did (among a long and great list) was provide a 
barrier to regulatory backsliding.  They also showed that there could be great 
demand for great EVs, and ultimately that they could have the cool factor.

No “shame factor” in there IMO.

No op-Ed’s targeting them, no campaigns excoriating them - not on the country’s 
radar at all.

You want “shame factor”? VW diesel.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jul 25, 2020, at 10:04 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/25/20 5:19 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and the 
>> cost of NOT doing so did it.
> 
> Well, "the cost of NOT doing so" is, at least in part, from the threat of 
> losing their ICE market.  That, due to Tesla success in developing the EV 
> market.  I would consider that "shamed" into getting into the USA EV market.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/25/20 5:19 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and the cost 
of NOT doing so did it.


Well, "the cost of NOT doing so" is, at least in part, from the threat 
of losing their ICE market.  That, due to Tesla success in developing 
the EV market.  I would consider that "shamed" into getting into the USA 
EV market.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/25/20 5:19 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and the cost 
of NOT doing so did it.


Well, "the cost of NOT doing so" is, at least in part, from the threat 
of losing their ICE market.  That, due to Tesla success in developing 
the EV market.  I would consider that "shamed" into getting into the USA 
EV market.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and the cost 
of NOT doing so did it.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jul 24, 2020, at 9:46 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> From: Peri Hartman
>> I want a cheaper Tesla, too. But I think Willie is right. If Tesla had 
>> tried to make a cheap model sooner, they would have only sold a trickle. 
>> That's not a good way for a startup to survive. Selling into to the 
>> masses will be a low profit cut throat market. I think that time is 
>> coming for Tesla, but not here yet. Little room for mistakes, high 
>> volume required, and ICE functionality.
>> 
>> The last raises eye brows, I know. But you aren't going to change the 
>> public attitude.
> 
> I feel much the same way. Tesla had enough money that they *could* have 
> produced an inexpensive EV first; and maybe even sell a lot of them. But they 
> wouldn't have made money; and worse, they wouldn't have been able to attract 
> investors. Without investors, I doubt they could have run the company at a 
> loss for long enough to become profitable.
> 
> And, though I'd like to see it happen faster, Tesla is slowly getting the 
> prices down and producing cheaper EVs.
> 
> So, I wish them all the luck in the world. They deserve it; and more 
> importantly, it's likely the automakers wouldn't be offering EVs in the US if 
> Tesla hadn't shamed them into it!
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> 
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sat Jul 25 02:22:46 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>In the meantime, Renault and VW haven't sat on their hands.  The updated Zoe
>and the upcoming VW ID.3 are competent and attractive EVs with plenty of
>range.  The Zoe offers 80% of the Model 3 LR's range at 43% of its EU price -
>29% of it if you're willing to lease the battery!  And it fits in more of
>the tiny European garages and parking spaces than the Tesla does.

So, those are such great cars that sell well - why aren't they being sold in 
the US?
Could it possibly be because the demand for small cars isn't there?


--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sat Jul 25 05:34:18 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>> How much of a dealer discount below MSRP did you get on your Tesla? :-)

You do realize that MSRP is an imaginary number that has no basis in reality?  
It's chosen to let the Dealers show you what a great deal they are giving you.


--

Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/24/20 7:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:



How much of a dealer discount below MSRP did you get on your Tesla? :-)


MANY, including me, consider the Tesla direct sales model to be an 
enormous improvement over the franchised dealer model where MSRPs are 
meaningless.


Tesla DOES offer incentives but only on models/stock they need to move. 
At this time, that does not include the low profit and high demand models.


For those who haven't much shopped Teslas, the incentives have been 
greatest near the end of the quarters when Tesla is trying to pump up 
sales/deliveries.  Incentives include discounts on in stock models and 
demos.  As well as numerous other strategies.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 Jul 2020 at 4:04, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> I want a cheaper Tesla, too. But I think Willie is right. If Tesla had 
> tried to make a cheap model sooner, they would have only sold a trickle.

That's probably true in the US, where small cars sell in small numbers. But 
I wonder what would have happened if they'd been ready to go nose to nose 
with the Renault Zoe in 2012 or the VW E-Golf in 2015.  

Neither car was especially impressive in its early incarnations, and I think 
Tesla could have cleaned their clocks.. But at the time, all Tesla had to 
offer was the very large and expensive Model S.  Then as now, it barely 
registered on Europe's EV sales charts.

In the meantime, Renault and VW haven't sat on their hands.  The updated Zoe 
and the upcoming VW ID.3 are competent and attractive EVs with plenty of 
range.  The Zoe offers 80% of the Model 3 LR's range at 43% of its EU price -
 29% of it if you're willing to lease the battery!  And it fits in more of 
the tiny European garages and parking spaces than the Tesla does.

The mainstream EU automakers have a big head start in EVs suited to their 
own market, and more competitors are moving in. It's going to be tougher for 
Tesla to catch up now than it would have been 5 years ago.

Meanwhile, China has a huge appetite for small cheap EVs, and so far Tesla 
has nothing to feed it.

I don't think that Tesla will ever have the EV market share in Asia and 
Europe that it has in North America.  But a smaller, more affordable Tesla 
will certainly help in both places, especially if they can get it on the 
ground quickly and also give it the polish and refinement they show in their 
other cars.  It will be interesting to see if they can do that with Chinese 
design and manufacturing.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
 It would scare the world.

  -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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