Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Ditto 

On Thursday, April 18, 2024 at 01:57:07 PM PDT, (-Phil-) via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Sorry about that David.  I'll try and remember to trim my replies in the
future. (Starting with this one)  Appreciate your vigilance and work on the
list!

-Phil


  
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Re: [EVDL] Why Root? (was Adding a FM radio to a Tesla)

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

That's an excellent point.    I know next to nothing about Tesla hardware, 
but it looks like ARM hardware which has protection, so as far as I can see 
running a stupidbackgammon game as root, and everything else for that matter is 
not exactly confidence inspiring.    What's more, that means that memory leaks 
are even more likely to 
screw stuff up.     

I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on Tesla, but running everything as root 
is a pretty novice move.  
 

On Thursday, April 18, 2024 at 04:50:36 PM PDT, Ron via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 From the log:

/runsv
backgammon
root      3825  0.0  0.0  2456  252 ?        Ss  Apr15  0:00 runsv
backgammon-input
root      3826  0.0  0.0  2456  1288 ?        Ss  Apr15  

Is there really a backgammon game?

If so, does this indicate that it's running as root instead of a more 
restrictive account?

If so, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Speaking of which, if that is 
running as root, it strikes me that there are quite a few things running as 
root that I think probably shouldn't be.

Note that I have no idea how constrained the hardware and operating system are. 
I can imagine embedded systems that don't really have the concept of non-root 
accounts.


  
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[Ron via EV]

f
>/run/service/cgroup-monitor/cgroup-monitor.pid -- /usr/sbin/cg-monit
>log   3933  0.0  0.0   2616   256 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/chromium-odin-input
>log   3934  0.0  0.0   2616   252 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/cgdo
>root  3935  0.0  0.0   3216  1008 ?SN   Apr15   0:00
>/bin/minijail0 -T static -l -p -v -P /run/chroot/cgdo -K -b/bin /bin -b/etc
>/etc -b/lib /lib -b/proc /
>log   3936  0.0  0.0   2616   252 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/app-carbonado
>log   3938  0.0  0.0   2616   248 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/app-carbonado-input
>log   3939  0.0  0.0   2616   248 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/cgroup-oom-monitor
>log   3941  0.0  0.0   2616   252 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/chromium-adapter
>log   3942  0.0  0.0   2616   248 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/canlogs
>log   3944  0.0  0.0   2616   252 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/app-chess
>log   3945  0.0  0.0   2616   252 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/chromium-fullscreen
>log   3946  0.0  0.0   2616   252 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/app-cerulean
>log   3947  0.0  0.0   2616   248 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/app-cobalt-input
>log   3948  0.0  0.0   2616   248 ?SApr15   0:00
>/sbin/svlogd -L - -M /var/log/command-router
>log   3951  0.0
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Sorry about that David.  I'll try and remember to trim my replies in the
future. (Starting with this one)  Appreciate your vigilance and work on the
list!

-Phil

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 1:18 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> I'm over here with a plunger and snake, clearing a clog out of the
> listserver.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[EV List Lackey via EV]

I'm over here with a plunger and snake, clearing a clog out of the 
listserver.

So this is what happened.

Phil posted a very long message to the list, with a Tesla process list, and 
the listserver held it because of its size.

Phil CCed Lawrence, and the replies went back and forth between them, ALSO 
going to the server but not being distributed.

And the reason they weren't distributed is that Phil and Lawrence top-posted 
all the way through, so a 256k byte message stayed tacked on to every 
message.   By the last post, the message had grown to 352kB.

Folks, please don't do that. To terminally mix my metaphors, it gives the 
listserver indigestion.

To set things straight, here's the blocked thread, condensed to a manageable 
size:

==

Lawrence, Thu, 18 Apr 2024 12:30:33 + (UTC) 

> all modern software on complex systems with a large OS will have some
> amount of memory leaks, so it's always a good idea to do an occasional
> reboot to clear things up.  I've seen Tesla uptimes without reboots of
> over 2 years, but they are usually running like molasses by then. 

That's such a defeatist attitude.   Memory leaks aren't inevitable and there 
are lots of tools to find them.    It's the result of shoddy, lazy 
programming, not some fact of nature.      Howevercomplicated you think the 
Tesla software is, the Linux OS is much bigger project and more complicated 
and luckily Linus has always had a low tolerance for stupid excuses.  

-

Phil, Thu, 18 Apr 2024 08:14:20 -0700 (15:14:20 UTC)

You can't compare an embedded system designed for industrial use to a large-
surface GUI on a large OS with a lot of apps.  

You probably interact with a handful of systems every day that run linux. 
They all run many layers, and It probably usually isn't the Kernel.   Do you 
have the source for the top layers?  Do you even have a shell, let alone 
root? Even if you are a developer of your caliber, and somehow had source 
and access, (almost never true) it's simply not feasible to attempt to debug 
someone else's system for some memory leaks that may cause reduced 
performance after weeks of uptime.  

Here's the process list on a Tesla Model 3 MCU just to give you an idea of 
what you'd be up against:  

(See original message for list)

*

-

Lawrence, Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:28:38 + (UTC)

I'm not saying it's "your" problem to solve.   It's the guy who wrote it. 
And getting the process list is a good place to start.   I'm actually not 
overwhelmed by it.     Most of the processes have a pretty miniscule memory. 
  Sort by memory usage and compare over time.   As I said I'm not a Tesla 
guy, but I used to have a pretty good understanding of Linux. I see some 
of them use "QT".   Personally I think "QT" has become very bloated from 
what used to be.    I wouldn't use a "QT"application anymore.   That's my 
opinion anyway.   I also see "minijail".    Is it working? This isn't rocket 
science.   It's just work.  

-

Phil, Thu, 18 Apr 2024 08:44:19 -0700 (15:44:19 UTC)

On a system this large there is no one "guy".  It's made up of many years of 
legacy code with a team of hundreds of different developers over time. They 
aren't going to just throw out QT and re-code it from scratch. There's too 
much inertia, and no matter what you think, nobody cares about fixing the 
leaks.   I'd argue the Linux kernel itself is highly bloated compared to 
where it was when I started using it.  

-

Lawrence, Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:53:21 + (UTC)

Of course it's not one "guy".    But it most likely is "one guy" who made 
the mistake. Anyway, if nobody cares about memory leaks, then they will 
never get fixed...and lowering standards probably isn't the path to 
excellence.  

I personally am stubborn enough to care. Anyway, since you have the data, 
why not at least narrow it down to what process is growing over time?    
That ought to give you a path toward fixing it.and you were the one to 
ask me what I'd do...and I'm telling you.  

-

Phil, Thu, 18 Apr 2024 09:36:57 -0700 (16:36:57 UTC)

I have way better things to do, and I don't have source code, I'm sure as 
hell not going to bother decomp.  

I don't mind an occasional reboot.

-

Lawrence, Thu, 18 Apr 2024 17:02:58 + (UTC)

I completely understand.   As I tried to say it's not your problem, it's the 
people who wrote it.     

As I said, I don't have a Tesla, but looking through your process list, I 
see a lot of what looks like QT apps.    As an early user of QT, it used to 
be pretty good when it was 10 people and made really pretty X apps when most 
of the stuff looked pretty stodgy.    But honestly the good things about it 
was that drew standard widgets and menusbut they've tried to make it way 
bigger than was necessary and tried to lock the user into using their thread 
stuff, their SQL stuff, their OPENGL, etc.    IMHO I'm a smart enough to 
make my own decisions about that.   I just want it to draw some 

Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 In the era of streaming any am or fm radio station, radio reception ability is 
almost mute. A simple portable radio hooked to a Bluetooth transmitter is all 
you need, if you can't stream. Total cost starts under $20.  Lawrence Rhodes 
https://www.google.com/search?q=am+fm+portable+radio+amazon=am+fm+portable+_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgCEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIICAkQABgWGB4yCAgKEAAYFhgeMggICxAAGBYYHjIICAwQABgWGB4yCAgNEAAYFhgeMggIDhAAGBYYHtIBCTEwMjI1ajBqOKgCALACAA=tablet-android-samsung=chrome-mobile=UTF-8.
 
https://www.google.com/search?q=bluetooth+transmitter%2Freceiver+audio+adapter=Bluetooth+transmitter%2Freceiver+_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBEAAYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIICAQQABgWGB4yCAgFEAAYFhgeMggIBhAAGBYYHjIICAcQABgWGB4yCAgIEAAYFhgeMggICRAAGBYYHjIICAoQABgWGB4yCAgLEAAYFhgeMggIDBAAGBYYHjIICA0QABgWGB4yCAgOEAAYFhge0gEJMzkzMjhqMGo4qAIAsAIA=tablet-android-samsung=chrome-mobile=UTF-8
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

as
> > > > every few weeks.  Doesn't hurt anything and can make a sluggish UI
> > > > fast again.
> > >
> > > That's considered NORMAL?  Seriously?
> > >
> > > Insanity.  You can't expect drivers to reboot their cars "ever;y few
> > weeks."
> > >  I can just imagine how my low-tech other half, Margaret, would react
> if
> > she
> > had
> > > to do that.
> > >
> > > But she's never had any such problem.  We've owned our Renault Zoe EV
> > for over
> > > 4 years and have never had to reboot anything.  It just works.  And so
> > does
> > its
> > > radio.
> > >
> > > I can't imagine that the Zoe is any less computerized than a Tesla.  I
> > suspect
> > that
> > > the Zoe's firmware is just more thoroughly debugged.  Renault has a
> long
> > history -
> > > they're 136 years old - and a hard-earned reputation to protect.
> > >
> > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> > >
> > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist
> > address
> > > here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> > >  It's the desire to be barbaric that makes governments call their
> > >  enemies barbarians.
> > >
> > >-- Bertolt Brecht
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > > www.avg.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

mal to need to do the first simple 5 second reboot on Teslas
> > > every few weeks.  Doesn't hurt anything and can make a sluggish UI
> > > fast again.
> >
> > That's considered NORMAL?  Seriously?
> >
> > Insanity.  You can't expect drivers to reboot their cars "ever;y few
> weeks."
> >  I can just imagine how my low-tech other half, Margaret, would react if
> she
> had
> > to do that.
> >
> > But she's never had any such problem.  We've owned our Renault Zoe EV
> for over
> > 4 years and have never had to reboot anything.  It just works.  And so
> does
> its
> > radio.
> >
> > I can't imagine that the Zoe is any less computerized than a Tesla.  I
> suspect
> that
> > the Zoe's firmware is just more thoroughly debugged.  Renault has a long
> history -
> > they're 136 years old - and a hard-earned reputation to protect.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
> address
> > here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >      It's the desire to be barbaric that makes governments call their
> >      enemies barbarians.
> >
> >                                                    -- Bertolt Brecht
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > www.avg.com
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

more thoroughly debugged.  Renault has a
> long
> > history -
> > > they're 136 years old - and a hard-earned reputation to protect.
> > >
> > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> > >
> > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist
> > address
> > > here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> > >  It's the desire to be barbaric that makes governments call their
> > >  enemies barbarians.
> > >
> > >-- Bertolt Brecht
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > > www.avg.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

That's such a defeatist attitude.   Memory leaks aren't inevitable and there 
are lots of tools to find them.    It's the result of shoddy, lazy programming, 
not some fact of nature.      Howevercomplicated you think the Tesla software 
is, the Linux OS is much bigger project and more complicated and luckily Linus 
has always had a low tolerance for stupid excuses.   


On Wednesday, April 17, 2024 at 04:17:39 PM PDT, (-Phil-) via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Yes, you don't HAVE to reboot it.  Same thing for your PC or phone, but all
modern software on complex systems with a large OS will have some amount of
memory leaks, so it's always a good idea to do an occasional reboot to
clear things up.  I've seen Tesla uptimes without reboots of over 2 years,
but they are usually running like molasses by then.

Comparing the level of compute in a Zoe to the amount in a recent Tesla is
like comparing the Apollo Guidance computer to a modern PC.  The
infotainment (main screen) in a Tesla is, in fact essentially a PC running
Linux.  The autopilot computer adds a level of compute several orders of
magnitude over that.

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 4:10 PM Rush via EV  wrote:

> Now, now, EV list lackey, calm down... just because it is recommended, it
> doesn't mean that the sky will fall on your head if you don't do it.
>
> My first M3 was bought in 2019 (I just traded it in for the refresh model
> because the FSD would transfer, a good deal if you ask me) and in those
> almost 5
> years I've done a reboot maybe 3 times
>
> And I take issue with your blanket statement 'I can't imagine that the Zoe
> is
> any less computerized than a Tesla'. That, to me, just sounds like someone
> that's saying anything to put down Tesla's.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 3:41 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > Cc: EV List Lackey 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla
> >
> > On 17 Apr 2024 at 10:27, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > > It's normal to need to do the first simple 5 second reboot on Teslas
> > > every few weeks.  Doesn't hurt anything and can make a sluggish UI
> > > fast again.
> >
> > That's considered NORMAL?  Seriously?
> >
> > Insanity.  You can't expect drivers to reboot their cars "ever;y few
> weeks."
> >  I can just imagine how my low-tech other half, Margaret, would react if
> she
> had
> > to do that.
> >
> > But she's never had any such problem.  We've owned our Renault Zoe EV
> for over
> > 4 years and have never had to reboot anything.  It just works.  And so
> does
> its
> > radio.
> >
> > I can't imagine that the Zoe is any less computerized than a Tesla.  I
> suspect
> that
> > the Zoe's firmware is just more thoroughly debugged.  Renault has a long
> history -
> > they're 136 years old - and a hard-earned reputation to protect.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
> address
> > here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >      It's the desire to be barbaric that makes governments call their
> >      enemies barbarians.
> >
> >                                                    -- Bertolt Brecht
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > www.avg.com
>
>
>
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