from:"Zeke Yewdall via EV"

Re: [EVDL] want soc spread sheet

2024-03-12 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

I am not sure about the leaf batteries in particular, but my experience
with lithium batteries in general is that voltage cannot be used to
determine SOC for most of the range between 20% and 90% SOC.  The curve is
just too flat to be meaningful.  Above 90% and below 20% it gets steeper
and may give some useful info.



On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 9:15 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:14, redscooter via EV wrote:
>
> > can someone make a spreadsheet
>
> What's your budget?  Maybe you could hire a skilled contractor through a
> "microtask" website.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Endless loop: See loop, endless.
>
>  Loop, endless: See endless loop.
>
>  -- Stan Kelly-Bootle, "The Devil's DP Dictionary"
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

2024-03-11 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

The AHJ generally enforces the code, which specifically allows loading a
busbar with 120% of its rating when backfeeding solar into it.   So it
depends on what you define as "correct".  Following the code, or following
the laws of physics.I hate to admit it, but there are many things in
the code that are not based on the laws of physics.  I've been doing solar
for 25+ years now, and also know a bunch of people on code writing panels,
and have learned that writing the code is much like writing legislation,
lots of special interests and political lobbying -- it's not just a bunch
of engineers or physicists sitting around deciding what is the safest way
to build something.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 10:57 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> My AHJ nor my brothers did not enforce it so we've had a different
> experience.
>
>
>On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:45:01 PM PDT, (-Phil-) <
> p...@ingineerix.com> wrote:
>
>  The NEC definitely accounts for this since 2011, and I know from
> experience AHJs enforce it.   (705.12 D 2)
>
> There are 2 ways:1. Derate: Replace the main with a lower amperage, or:2.
> End Feed: Install the solar breaker at the opposite end of the busbars and
> put a sign that states: "SOLAR PV BREAKER - BREAKER IS BACKFED, DO NOT
> RELOCATE!"
> Most brands of panels also now over-rate the busbars for this reason on at
> least some of their models.
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:52 PM Lawrence Winiarski <
> lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it,
> but maybe some don't.
> Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some
> electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used
> to back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually
> look the other way.
>
> The problem is as follows.
> Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.It has a big 200 amp breaker at
> the top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine
> that you have a 40 amp solar.
> So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance
> and you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).No problem as the
> main breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40
> amps of solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from
> the power company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.
> But the important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially
> seeing 200 amps).Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so
> now the bus bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't
> flip (because it's now it only sees 200 amps.
> So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are
> rated for.
> The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps
> but almost nobody does that.
>
> But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not
> really correct.
> Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a
> solar panel not being entirely kosher.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

2024-03-10 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

I believe the way to do it codewise would be to add a subpanel at the base
of the solar array, with a breaker in it feeding the dedicated solar
circuit (the inverter or inverters -- often I end up with multiple
inverters to get to 50A anyway unless using a single 11.4kW, so am adding
an inverter combiner panel for that reason) and a breaker feeding the EV
charging outlet.  It's legal to connect the PV to a subpanel, or a series
of subpanels, as long as you follow the 120% rule all the way back through
every panel along the way.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 3:08 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> Yes, you'd need a subpanel, as any outlets you add could get 50A from the
> breaker PLUS whatever your solar is generating.  The 120v outlet without a
> proper breaker to limit current is super dangerous, as you'll definitely
> get 50A even at night, and even more during the day!
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:56 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > > Hi Folks
> > > I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> > adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for
> EV
> > charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> > pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> > (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> > anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> > like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone
> know
> > if this is ok/code compliant?
> > I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> > there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> > > Best regards Mark
> > > Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] solar cells may power electric cars (but not on them)...

2015-09-21 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

I'm totally with you Bob.  Keeping paying utility bills now while waiting
for solar to get incrementally better doesn't make much sense when solar
works now.

Z

On Monday, September 21, 2015, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> We are over 60 years out on the learning curve for silicon cells and the
> costs have fallen over 99%.
> The high efficiency cells in the lab and used in space (35%) will NEVER
> reach the consumer.  Have not and never will.
>
> These high efficiency cells have been around for decades.  Every year they
> add a % or so.  And the space industry is willing to spend 500 times more
> per cell than for a silicon cell, because their $100M missions need the
> power and so spending $1M to get twice the power of the satellite is worth
> it.  Cost is no obstruction.
>
> BUT!  And here is the deal.  When next year's +1% cells come out of the
> lab,
> then those big spenders immediately move all their billions over to the new
> cells, and last year's 35% cells have *zero* market.  And since ast year's
> 35% cells still cost 500 times more than silicon cells and little demand,
> there is no way they will ever get down on the learning curve to approach
> home solar (500 times cheaper).  It will ALWAYS be this way.
>
> That’s because in space, it costs hundreds of millions of dollars just to
> "install" the panels (get them into space) compared to any terrestrial
> application where it is only a few hours labor.  So the 500 to one cost
> difference will never go away.
>
> So the person that is "waiting for" higher efficiency cells will die in the
> dark and will never get there.  Even the 220W panels that cost me $500 five
> years ago and only cost $175 now, would have been of no value for me to
> wait.  Because the $500 panels of 5 years ago have already produced more
> electricity than the difference in cost.
>
> So that is one thing about solar.  If you have a roof, and sun on it and
> will live there for a long time, every utility bill you pay from now on is
> just throwing away money for nothing.  When you could be having free
> electricity for life.
>
> http://aprs.org/solar-now.html
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 12:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Perovskite solar cells may power electric cars
>
> Unfortunately the only useful bit of information is missing:
> how much efficiency is expected in future with this technology?
> At this moment the efficiency of just over 12% is underwhelming, because
> mass produced cheap silicon PV easily reaches 15% and in labs there have
> been versions that go to the 30% range.
> The issue with recharging on the car itself is the limited area requires an
> order of magnitude better efficiency than existing silicon PV to be
> practical as main energy source.
> Which means that the efficiency must be well above 50% at low mass-produced
> prices, in order to make on-car PV practical.
> Since the article does not mention the expected limit of efficiency or even
> the next steps, it does not help but to give me a feeling that this is a
> "different but not better" alternative to the same problem as silicon PV. I
> may be wrong. In fact, I hope I am.
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Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-19 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Part of the problem is that for a lot of the population there aren't 15
different EV's available... there are two. The Nissan Leaf and and Tesla
S. And maybe the Mitsubishi -- not sure if they are still offering it
here. I see the Leafs everywhere around here, and usually see a Tesla at
least a few times a week -- so sales of those are doing pretty well here.
Since we aren't in a compliance state, all of the other dealerships can't
get their manufacturers EV's to sell though. I would prefer the utility
of a Kia Soul or even a NV200 van over the Leaf, but can't get those here
(I've asked.).

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Stephen via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

EVs aren't the answer for everyone... Different horses for different
courses...

Regards,
Stephen

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

First off, there are hundreds of options in personal transportation. Not
one vehicle fits all needs so person must choose. This doesn't change
just
because you're driving and electric vehicle it doesn't suit all needs but
neither does a truck or station wagon or Corvette you get the picture. As
for the BMW it has extended range have another 70 or 80 miles on
gasoline.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 19, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Arak Leatham via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

wow, so I see, your answer for the general public is to live where EV's
will work? That's very draconic of you, and presumptive. I live where I
live because I must.

This is the reason many people drop out of the EV interest, obtuse
requirements and limitations.

If you are trying to save the planet, by scrunching all people to less
than 30mi from work? That's not a sustainable goal(for many reasons). But
of course, everyone living more than 30 isn't either. The real answer is
limiting world population's to less than 5billion and we know that won't
fly either.

Seriously, I checked with BMW, the price is $46k. The range is
70-80miles. The price is way too high and range too short to suit my
need.

Anyway, I'm back to dropping out until a more amenable world of ideas
prevails. Point done. I leave the floor.

Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG )

Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:14:18 -0400
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales
Better? It's the battery.
From: ev@lists.evdl.org

I would argue that you're living or working in the wrong place. 42
miles
each way is a waste of your time and of gasoline or electricity.

--Rick

On 05/19/2015 01:05 PM, Arak Leatham via EV wrote:
I admit I'm not sure how that plays out for everyone.

I had the decision myself recently, I drive 42 miles each way. I had
to balance out a moderate credit score and a super tight budget, and
monthly costs. And I don't want or have the ability to charge at my
work location. (unless it were flow batteries and as easy as petrol,
5min ok, 10min not so much)
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Re: [EVDL] postal delivery

2015-03-23 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Most if the rural carriers around here are private vehicles, but in the
city, that are the official little usps van things.

A number of people do find various RHD cars to use for it.

On Sunday, March 22, 2015, Glen Hoag via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

From what I have read, Japan raises the taxes on older vehicles to the
point that it isn't economic to keep them beyond a certain point. This is
also the reason that used JDM (Japanese domestic market) engines find their
way to the U.S.

I recall seeing a RHD Subaru wagon used as a rural carrier's vehicle a few
years back.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 22, 2015, at 17:46, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
javascript:; wrote:

On 03/22/2015 11:31 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
Glen Hoag via EV wrote:
AFAIK, all rural carriers use their own vehicles these days. Around
here, some are still using ex-USPS Jeep DJ-5s, though most have been
replaced by newer vehicles.

Around here, they all switched from private cars to postal vehicles a
good decade ago. There were debates at the time about safety. People using
regular cars had to sit on the passenger's side (to reach the mail boxes),
and drive with only their left hand on the wheel and left foot to (barely)
reach the accelerator and brake. Can't reach the turn signals, so they
weren't used. That led to accidents.

Today, I don't know what the Post Office's policy is nationwide. Does
anyone have a mail carrier that uses their personal car?
Here in central Texas, most or perhaps all carriers use their own cars.
I think all have converted to right drive. One friend has a wife that is a
carrier; I've offered to lend them an EV to try. Route is about 50 miles.
She had been using a surplus USPS Jeep. She recently acquired a used
Cherokee that had it's origin in Japan. Apparently Japan outlaws vehicles
before they become well used; many seem to be parted out and/or exported.
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Re: [EVDL] Help! - Double motor failure!

2015-02-21 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Do you have any metering of motor current? I'm not familiar with how the
AXE controller works with a shunt motor as I've only used them with series
motors, but I imagine that if you are at low throttle, the motor current
could actually be very high, while the battery current is low.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Dan Baker via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

Hey folks

I'm hoping someone can help me with my EV. My snowpig (
http://www.evalbum.com/4544 ) has suffered two drive motor failures in the
past two weeks! I purchased a DD 170-04-01 8hp torque motor two years ago
to beef up my cart that I use to clear our dirt road for myself and
our neighbors. It had ran flawlessly till now. My cart has been the first
line of defense in keeping our road passable and this winter has been
brutal but not much different than the others we have had. A couple weeks
ago I noted some smell from the motor and then a sudden loss in power.
Upon dis assembly, I found heat damage, notably 2 of the brush springs had
melted. No idea if the brush springs were the cause of the heat or the
victims of it. All my connections were tight and no heat damage could be
found at the batteries, controller or motor terminals. So I called Mike
and Jeff at DD up, they were very helpful and I ordered a replacement,
which is terribly expensive by the time this 61lb brute gets to my door
with shipping. I verified my alltrax 7245 controller's programming and
found that the turbo option was set, a field weakening option that gets a
small increase in speed. My snowpig rarely sees full throttle as it
trundles along clearing snow, the front MARS ME-1003 doing most of the work
running the blower. I verified all the rest of the options as per Mike's
instructions and put the cart back together.
Well I had to travel for work this week and left the snowpig for my father
to operate. We had two storms, the first one he had no issue but on the
second it failed again! Upon inspecting I found the resting pack voltage
was 50 volts in -6c weather (he had to abandon it on the side of the
road). Upon dissection of the second motor I found one brush completely
torn from the holder, it's metal casing in shards and lots of heat damage
again!

Was the second motor a dud? What else could be the cause? I'm not looking
for blame, just trying to keep it from happening again. I have to once
again go away next week and we will likely have yet another dump of snow.
I'm going to try and make a motor of the two but I'm dismayed this may
happen again ;-( If I get a motor functioning again, I'm going to hook a
laptop to the AXE controller. and log a run but there isn't a lot of snow
left to clear as it has become rock hard with freezing rain so the blower
and cart won't see much load.

Any help or ideas around keeping my pig running and our road passable would
be much appreciated!

Thank you
Dan
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap solar for EV charging

2015-01-18 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

I don't know of any currently available battery based inverters that can
accept a PV array input.  They all assume that you are using a charge
controller for the DC power coming into the batteries, and they only handle
the power going out for the DC-AC conversion, or charge the batteries from
an AC source.

Z

On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:



 They also have a 6 kW grid-tie/off-grid inverter for a 48v battery sysem,
 but best I can tell, no provision for high voltage DC solar input?


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Re: [EVDL] Scrapping an EV

2015-01-16 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Around here, there a quite a few metal recyclers who will come with a
trailer or flatbed and take the car -- most of them take them to metal
recycling, but some might take them to a junkyard if they can get more
money for them there.  Usually it's either free, or they might pay you $50
or so to take it away.  If it's a one highly sought after by a junkyard
they might come and get it, but I've always dealt with a middle man scrap
metal guy.

Z

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 I didn't have any takers on my Starter EV, Just Add Batteries offer.  So
 I'm just going to take out all the EV components and scrap the car.  What's
 the procedure for getting a motor-less car to a junk yard?  Do you have to
 pay them to pick up the car, or do they just come and take it off your
 hands
 for whatever remaining parts it may have?

 Thanks,

 Bill

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Kia Soul EV range test achieved 125.3mi w/ 9mi left (v)

2015-01-10 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

 I talked to our local Kia dealer about getting the Soul EV here in
Colorado -- I was driving my prius C and talked about looking to trade in
for something better (i.e. more efficient, EV instead of hybrid).  They
tried to interest me in a Kia optima Hybrid (not a hatchback, so I'm not
really interested, plus worse mileage than the prius), or a Honda Insight
(they're also a Honda dealer... but it gets worse mileage than the Prius
and costs more).   This is what the sales manager said:  The Kia Soul EV
is going to be a game-changer, and when you compare the Kia Soul EV to the
Nissan Leaf, it is a much better vehicle equipped for performance and for
everyday convenience. Unfortunately, Kia Motors America has planned to only
offer the Kia Soul EV as a limited release to locations certified in
California. Believe you me, we've asked for a shot at featuring this
vehicle in Boulder, but at this time we're out of the running

I've also test driven the Leaf at the Boulder Nissan dealership, and they
said they are selling (or leasing) 5 of them a month for the past two
years.  I see them all of the time driving around Boulder (kind of like
Prius's back in 2004 when you didn't see them anywhere else outside of
CA).  I really think Kia is missing the boat in only offering their EV in
CA and not other select EV friendly cities.

Z

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 2:04 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:



 http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/6898/Kia-Soul-EV-range-test
 Kia Soul EV range test
 [Jan 7, 2015]  by:Peter Thomas


 [image
 http://www.nextgreencar.com/i/news_xlarge/kia-soul-ev-range-test.JPG
 After covering 125.3 miles, the Soul EV showed 9 miles further range

 video  flash
 ]

 Since the Kia Soul EV's UK launch in October 2014 [
 http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/6843/Kia-Soul-EV-now-on-sale-in-UK
 ], its homologated range of 132 miles has been a positive talking point as
 it brings a new benchmark to its class.

 To prove this statement of excellence, Kia Motors UK set up a real-world
 range test, neutrally conducted by Dr Ben Lane, Managing Editor at Next
 Green Car.

 Navigating the highs and lows of Somerset and Wiltshire's cities, towns,
 villages and countryside, a specially designed route was planned to ensure
 all road types and traffic environments were included.

 Bristol's bumper to bumper traffic, huge descents and ascents of sweeping
 countryside road network, busy A and B roads, plus the high speed demands
 of
 the M4 were all part of the route to ensure real world accuracy, and to
 replicate many consumers' daily journeys.

 Bringing further authenticity to the test, the weather was not favourable.
 With an average temperature of 8 degrees centigrade throughout the day,
 coupled with both light and heavy rain, it dampened performance slightly,
 triggered heavier traffic and used more battery power for on board heating,
 screen wipers and headlights.

 In addition to these factors Dr Lane was using the satellite navigation,
 heated seats and radio, as he would with every day driving.

 The video, which features all elements of the test and includes regular
 reference to the on-board trip computer and range expectation display,
 explains the results in full.

 The full range achieved on this test was 125.3 miles, with a conservative
 estimate of a further nine miles shown on the display; equalling a total
 range potential of 134.9 miles.

 Dr Ben Lane said: The Kia Soul EV [

 http://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/53571/KIA-Soul-EV-Electric-Car-81.4kW-Auto-Electric-(av-UK-mix)
 ] is an impressive and welcome entrant to the UK electric vehicle line-up.

 The 27 kWh lithium-ion battery gives the Soul EV an official range of 132
 miles beating everything but the Model S. This test demonstrates that it is
 possible to achieve close to this range using frugal driving techniques.

 The Soul EV also scores highly on the use of low impact materials [

 http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/6673/Kia-Soul-EV-gains-environmental-certificate
 ] including bio-degradable plastic, bio-foam and bio-fabric which are all
 used in the interior.

 Zero tail-pipe emissions mean zero London Congestion Charge and zero car
 tax (Vehicle Excise Duty). Priced from £24,995 the Soul EV isn’t cheap but
 it does come with Kia’s class-leading 7-year warranty. Unfortunately, only
 limited numbers expected in the UK for 2015.

 Read our full review of the Kia Soul EV [
 http://www.nextgreencar.com/review/6850/Kia-Soul-EV-review
 ]  [© nextgreencar.com]




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 http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0001829459
 JAXA electric aircraft to make test flights in 2/2015


 http://supermarketnews.com/retail-financial/moms-locate-philadelphia-development
 Free L2 EVSE @momsorganicmarket.com East Market Philadelphia PA
 +
 EVLN: Tesla-X

Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

2014-12-23 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Most of the current battery based inverters can handle a swing from 40
volts to 65 volts (for a 48 volt nominal nife bank) though output voltage
regulation may not always be in spec at the far ends. A lead acid bank
might swing between 46 and 60volts for comparison. Older inverters did
not always have as wide of a range.

The aquair batteries that everyone has bee hearing about recently
apparently have an even wider swing--something like 36 to 70 volts, and
inverter manufactures are working on new inverters that can maintain output
spec with that input swing from what I hear.

I've been pretty happy with nife and flooded nicad. Yes, they are not
quite as efficient but in some cases lead acid was lasting only 4 years
(heavy wintertime sulphation) and nicad is currently on 22 years.

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

On Dec 22, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
javascript:; wrote:

Flooded cell NiFe have a fairly high internal resistance and, as you
note, a large voltage swing. But they are the champs when it comes to
longevity.

Does that voltage swing require special inverters, etc., to use them in
something like an off-grid function? Or is it likely to just work?

b
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

2014-12-23 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

I don't think that swing is from discharge to charge but rather a big
change in voltage depending on state of charge.  I.e an electron in at 70
volts might come out at 55 if soc is 90% but in at 45 volts comes out at 36
volts if soc is 20%.  But, I haven't really seen any data on them for sure,
and have never used them myself.Seems like there is a lot of marketing
and not much solid engineering data on them yet.

Z

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Efficiency...

  The aquair batteries... have an even wider swing--
  something like 36 to 70 volts...

 Giving them terrible efficiency.  That's almost 50%.  Given that an
 electron-in to charge at 70 volts comes out at 36 volts is a 50% loss of
 power and hence efficiency.   Such batteries are great for standby back
 up systems where efficiency is of no concern.  But for a daily solar
 cycle, adds another 50% loss factor on top of an already abisymal 30%
 performance per dollar.


 Bob, WB4APR

 On Tuesday, December 23, 2014, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 javascript:; wrote:

  On Dec 22, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 javascript:;
  javascript:; wrote:
 
   Flooded cell NiFe have a fairly high internal resistance and, as you
  note, a large voltage swing. But they are the champs when it comes to
  longevity.
 
  Does that voltage swing require special inverters, etc., to use them
  in something like an off-grid function? Or is it likely to just work?
 
  b
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (inverter cost)

2014-12-22 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Keep in mind that that Home Depot inverter is designed to be used occasionally 
for a few years and the 3kw rating is not really Intended to be met very often. 
 The PV inverter is designed to run at the 3kw rating for several hours a day 
for 20 years if it's a good one.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 22, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Also, PV inverters are more expensive than regular inverters.
 
 Yes, something like FIVE TIMES.  A 3kW grid-tie inverter probably costs
 about $1500.  A 3 kW regular inverter costs less than $300 from Home Depot
 or anywhere else.
 
 Bob, WB4aPR
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

2014-12-22 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Ah, thanks ALEC.

I had heard that SRP was doing that.

On the inverter issue, you're going to need one designed for use both with
batteries and grid tie... Or one just for batteries if you go completely off
grid. Either way, your current inverter will not work. For one, it can't mAke
any voltage on its own, so you need SRP to make voltage for you--all it can do
is make current. Outback and Schneider currently have ones that can work with
batteries and the grid and are starting to be able to use lithium technologies
(still 48 volts nominal --any higher is very unlikely due to NEC for houses).
If you want to completely off grid (what SRP and others are pushing us towards)
then magnum is a good brand. Sma also makes some off grid ones (different than
their grid tie only ones. This whole topic will be a big issue in the coming
few years so you will not be the be the only one researching it. Many of the
manufacturers are working on new schemes to let you go off grid in areas where
net metering is taken away or standby fees are
rising-- I expect to see a lot if new products in the next few years.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project, my
utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees
for solar customers.

I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld, I'll
get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote as much
in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the proposal stage
and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place for existing
customers...but, still, now is the time to start planning.

As I see it, I have two main reasonable options for the battery: nickel-iron
or something discarded from an EV.

Nickel-iron would either be expensive to purchase or a significant investment
in time to make, but it should last forever.

A few surplus / used / whatever EV batteries would presumably be much
cheaper, but have a much more limited lifespan.

Part of me would be inclined to go the nickel-iron route and never have to
deal with it again.

Another part suggests to do things as cheaply as possible, even if it only
lasts a few years, because battery technology is improving so rapidly.

So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect to pay
for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold enough
charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet?

I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I
already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to
worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That, for example, I
should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from here and a Tesla
battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got enough amp-hour
capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove batteries later as the
fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption?

Anything else I should consider or start thinking about?

Thanks,

b
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Re: [EVDL] Grid Solar kits?

2014-12-22 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

And, with regards to permitting and interconnections. Depending on the
utility company and building department, I easily spend more time on that
than on site labor :(

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Zeke Yewdall zyewd...@gmail.com wrote:

Here in Colorado, many companies are bidding $3/watt or less installed for
grid tied Pv. Not good for the business long term as a lot of installers
are going out of business but it's pretty cheap for customers.

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ev@lists.evdl.org'); wrote:

Has anyone had experience getting a local electrician to install a
grid-tie-solar kit such as the one offered by Home Depot? The cheapest
one is about $2588 for a 1kW kit.

http://www.homedepot.comhere in Colorado, many companies are bidding
$3/watt ir less/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystall
ine-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystalline-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634

That is my recommendation to all DIY folks. Buy the $2588 kit, pay $500
for an electrician to install it and help him with any local solar/utility
paperwork. Get Grid-tied, approved and certified. Total cost is about $3
per watt but only for this first 1kW.

Then add on to it at UNDER $1/watt after all the approvals and
certifications and grid tie are complete.

The typical cost for full contractor systems is up around $4 to $5 per
watt.

Application to EV's (and EVDL list) is that this is the CARBON FREE way
to charge.

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Grid Solar kits?

2014-12-22 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

On Monday, December 22, 2014, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

Has anyone had experience getting a local electrician to install a
grid-tie-solar kit such as the one offered by Home Depot? The cheapest
one is about $2588 for a 1kW kit.

http://www.homedepot.comhere in Colorado, many companies are bidding
$3/watt ir less/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystall
ine-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystall
ine-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634

Then add on to it at UNDER $1/watt after all the approvals and
certifications and grid tie are complete.

The typical cost for full contractor systems is up around $4 to $5 per
watt.

Application to EV's (and EVDL list) is that this is the CARBON FREE way
to charge.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem

2014-11-19 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Here's another point of view.

 My conclusion is that range anxiety comes more from the lack of adequate
 charging facilities, not from the range of the vehicle.

 Peri


If my experience with my cell phone is anything to base it on, I'd say
so I know that the battery only lasts 8 or 10 hours if I'm using it a
lot.  But if I bring my charger, so what I can charge it in the car or
at work, so it's fine.  If I forget the charger, all of a sudden I'm all
worried about whether it'll still work at the end of the day and whether
I'll be communicationless (though, 10 years ago, I didn't even own a cell
phone and seemed to survive fine).
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Re: [EVDL] Q about using an electronic load.

2014-11-08 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV




 Well, there are grid-tie inverters down as small as 200W or so readily
 available, often down to 12v input.


 Yes, though the two I have (Trace Microsine and Enphase) won't work with a
 battery or DC supply as their input.

 As Lee said, just about all grid-tied microinverters are designed for a
current limited source, so there's a good chance that they'd have some
issues with a battery when they did the short circuit portion of their IV
curve sweep.  Some of the larger grid-tied inverters do have the ability to
change the parameters to handle non-current limited sources like wind
turbines or such, but I'm not aware of ability to change the software on
the microinverters.

Z
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Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes

2014-10-20 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

I think in certain situations, an EV could be a very good purchasing
decision -- just based on cost, nothing else. I was looking at the numbers
for leasing a leaf vs leasing a prius (which I am now doing), and the lease
cost is about the same (if anything, the Leaf is a little cheaper to
lease), and the fuel cost is quite a bit less with the leaf, if the primary
use is just for commuting. If used for more longer trips, the prius might
win out (vs using another vehicle for longer trips that doesn't get as good
of mileage as the prius would), but it's close.

I've always wanted the EV for the environmental reasons, but looking at the
Leaf leases was the first time I realized that it might make more sense
just be be cheap, too :)

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Alan Brinkman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

A few vehicle manufacturers did offer, and I think a few still do offer a
car or truck that runs on compressed natural gas. You can fill at a public
station or have a small cng compressor installed in your garage if you have
natural gas at your home and a minimum supply flow. Consumers with a cng
compressor at home and a cng burning car or truck will understand the
transition to a battery electric vehicle and filling up with energy at home
in the garage because that is what they have become used to.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 12:04 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just
2 minutes

Rick Beebe via EV wrote:
I have two EVs and a PHEV so I'm well aware of the advantages of
starting out with a full vehicle every morning. But there are millions
of people who live in places where they can't plug their car in and I
bet some number of them are wishing they could get away from gas.

Most people are fearful of change. They already know the gas pump model,
and would only tolerate an EV if it works the same. I.e. they expect to
drive to an electric fuel station, where there is a big box like a gas
pump. It has a hose and a connector that plugs into their car, just like a
gas pump, that will charge their car in about the same amount of time it
would take to fill a gas tank. And, they want it to be *cheaper*, or
they'll never change away from gas.

rest of message cut
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Gadja's 1939 Dodge e-Truck w/ li-ion phosphate pack r:100mi

2014-10-20 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

That's a nice truck...

The statement that it might be considered heresy to make a classic hotrod
into electric is confusing... for years, people have been putting in
drivetrains that are not original into restorations... putting chevy
engines into fords and studebakers, putting big block V8's into trucks that
originally had 4 cylinder engines. What is different about putting an
electric drivetrain into it as part of the restoration? Unless you are
going for completely stock restoration, I don't see the heresy. Plus... if
you are going for high performance, the modern electric drivetrains are now
able to achieve that quite easily.

On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 3:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

http://gas2.org/2014/10/01/1939-dodge-truck-converted-into-ev/
1939 Dodge Truck Converted Into EV
[2014/10/01]

[image
http://gas2.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/al-gadja.jpeg
e-truck
]

Self-taught electric engineer Al Gadja has committed what some may consider
to be historic car heresy, converting his 1939 Dodge truck into an electric
vehicle. But to you and me, this is the 21st century of hot rodding, and
this pre-war pickup has a longer driver range than many brand new EVs found
on dealership lots.

The Lexington Herald-Leader reports that Gadja spent many of his 74 years
on
this earth working for IBM, despite never getting a college degree. Over
his
lifetime he built up a wealth of electrical knowledge mostly by learning it
himself or going to IBM-provided classes. He’s also a fan of old hot rod
pickups, and dragged the ‘39 Dodge around the country with him with the
hopes of hot rodding it. Then electric cars got popular, and Gadja decided
to replace the inline-six engine with an electric drivetrain.

The lithium-ion phosphate battery packs he used line the truck bed and
weighs nearly 1,000 pounds. Yet he claims he can drive about 100 miles
between charges, and it takes just six hours to top off the battery pack,
allowing him to put an impressive 5,000 miles on the odometer in the first
year of driving. It took Gadja three years to perform the conversion, and
many people don’t even realize it’s electric.

Though the classic Dodge truck lacks power steering, it does have LED
lighting, a digital gauge cluster, and the electric motor transfers power
through the original three-speed manual transmission. This is a homemade
hot
rod of the highest caliber, the vanguard of a new tradition of shade tree
mechanics electrifying classic vehicles with powerful and practical
drivetrains. There’s a whole gallery of pics of Gadja’s Dodge that you
should definitely check out if you’re into this sort of thing.

I have a long list of classic cars I’d like to convert into EVs, starting
with my 1969 Mercury Cougar.
[© gas2.org]

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http://blogs.wsj.com/experts/2014/09/29/how-to-be-energy-smart-about-the-car-you-drive/tab/comments/
wsj writer thinks she'll only save $10/yr if she drives an EV

http://www.asianage.com/delhi/city-buses-set-go-electric-012
Delhi.in city buses set to go electric

http://ecomento.com/2014/10/01/europe-wide-charging-standard-to-be-adopted/
Europe-wide charging standard to be adopted
+
EVLN: Leaf EV powers reverse-graffiti artist's Waterloo.uk clean up

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Re: [EVDL] Chinese inverters legality?

2014-10-01 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

What is be worried about, other than the UL listing, would be how long will
they last? I used a line of Chinese made Pv inverters (which were UL
listed, Canadian company) and found, after installing hundreds of them,
that they had upwards of 10% failure rate in the first 8 years. Replaced
under warrantee, some multiple times, but still an incredible hassle. Not
worth the initial savings for something that's supposed to last 25+ years.
Now, I mostly use just the German ones, because I havent had to deal with
failures with them.

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

On Oct 1, 2014, at 10:34 AM, David Kerzel via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
javascript:; wrote:

When You connect to the grid then the power company has say in anything
that can energies the power lines and they may require only listed devices.

...and, let's not forget: linemen have one of the roughest jobs, and
they're out there in the middle of wretched weather putting the grid back
together so we all can watch the TV news about how miserable the weather is
out there. They're heroes who're all too often unsung...and if you're
energizing a line that shouldn't have power on it, you could kill one of
them.

Please, please, please don't connect _anything_ that generates power to
the grid until the power company has given it their blessing. It may seem
like petty bureaucratic bullshit, or serious overkill, or the like -- and
it may well be. But the guys doing the hard and dangerous work keeping the
lights on deserve our thanks, and the best way to thank them is to put up
with whatever nonsense the power company might ask before connecting
generating devices to the grid.

Cheers,

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Re: [EVDL] BiPolar NiMH (was: Kawasaki Concept J 3wheel GIGACELL powered EV)

2014-09-12 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

NiMh is still commonly used in handheld radios. Lithium is being switched
to for may of them, but mostly because of weight, not necessarily other
advantages. It seems like for cars, lithium has a big weight advantage, so
kind of makes NiMh not as important any more. It's a shame that it took us
20 years to come up with lithium as a competitor to lead acid for EV's,
when we could have started getting getting into good factory EV's 20 years
ago if ovonics hadn't sold the patent.

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:39 PM, George Tyler via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

I can only talk about the D Cell battery of the original Prius, I have
worked on many of those, changed many cells, tested them to see what is
wrong, etc. I have not seen ANY lose capacity. What happens is some cells
suffer from increased self discharge. I measure at 1.270 V, this is about
where they are normally. Leave it charging at this voltage on a precision 4
wire charger until the current stabilizes. A good cell has 0.01 mA leakage,
one that causes a problem will be 5mA. Some cells are 50mA.
When a car has been driven until the wheels stop turning the pack
is
wrecked, most of the cells are bad, many have leaked. I think this a due to
overcharging. Any cell that gets reversed very quickly loses electrolyte,
avoid these conditions and they have a long life, of course it it the best
cells that are damaged by overcharging. I have one car that still has the
original battery apart from a few cells I have changed, this was made in
1998. The Prius has no balancing mechanism, apart from charging the whole
pack so that the high cells are overcharged.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via
EV
Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2014 2:12 p.m.
To: Jan Steinman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BiPolar NiMH (was: Kawasaki Concept J 3wheel GIGACELL
powered EV)

LFP I know about, and they can provide more than 2000 cycles if you make
the
same sort of effort as one does with Lead. Charge them right, don't run
them too low, ask too much of them when they are cold, etc. You can ruin
any battery. There is a loss of capacity if LFP just sit, of maybe 1% a
year (I am reflecting some stuff I saw on EVTV), number of cycles does not
degrade. I make a distinction between the aging/degradation and misuse.

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org

NiMH has been largely eclipsed by Li-Ion.

Except in lifetime. Nickel technology is 3,000+ charge/discharge
cycles if well cared for, Li-ion what, 1,000 max? And nickel cells
have about the same capacity until they seriously break, whereas Li-ions
degrade, no?

You can't solve a problem with the same kind of thinking that
created it in the first place. -- Albert Einstein
Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op

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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google
Phone
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(919) 513-0418 Desk

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Re: [EVDL] Stud type fuse block needed

2014-09-09 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

LIke Cor, I just bolt a class T fuse to the battery terminal. They have a
fiberglass body it seems, and do not separate when they blow. Whether are
mechanically rated for this, doubtable, but it works, and I have blown them
in this configuration, and no problems.

A proper fuse holder for a class T fuse is around the price you mentioned,
with the two studs for the fuse, two studs for cables to attach, and the
plastic shield.

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 5:03 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

This appears to fit the 700A and 800A fuses, but we are getting there!
Good find.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of John Lussmyer
via EV
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 2:46 PM
To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Stud type fuse block needed

And I just found this as a fuse block for those:
http://www.discountfuse.com/1SC375_p/1sc375.htm
$14 is pretty cheap

On Mon Sep 08 13:38:38 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
On Mon Sep 08 10:47:30 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
That can work. Just be aware that a fuse can burst when it opens at
high
current (like a dead short). It throws bits of itself and molten metal
in all directions. This can melt or set fire to things around it.
That's
why fuseholders are usually pretty robust, and get mounted in boxes or
packages to contain the debris.

Depends on the fuse I think.
My Ferraz Shawmut A30QS500-4 blew when my Zilla died a month or two
ago.
You can't tell by looking at the fuse.
(thick metal ends, 1/8 or so thick ceramic case.)

Bobcats and Cougars, oh my! http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets

Try my Sensible Email package!
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Freedom3 Electric Defender Released To The African Wilds

2014-09-09 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Is Rod's WildEV rover still going?  I remember finding that quite inspiring
when I read about it in school.

Z


On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 2:27 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:




 http://www.lro.com/news-reviews/2014/9/african-electric-defender-released-to-the-wild/
 African Electric Defender Released To The Wild
 BY: Theo Ford-Sagers  02.09.2014

 [image

 http://assets.bauer-wolke.co.uk/imagegen/cr/340/275/Assets/LRO/2014/09/02/21874/News_ElectricDefender2.jpg
 Range on the sandy tracks of Botswana is about 75 miles
 ]

 South African company Freedon Won has completed a its first electric game
 viewing vehicle in Botswana, based on a Land Rover Defender.
 African Electric Defender Released To The Wild
 Range on the sandy tracks of Botswana is about 75 miles

 Known as ‘Freedom3’, the Defender 130 is destined for the Chobe Game Lodge
 in Botswana’s Chobe National Park, where it will be driven two or three
 times every day, transporting guests around the reserve.

 Aside from the obvious environmental benefits of being electric, Freedom3
 is
 also able to get closer to game wildlife, thanks to being silent when it’s
 stationary, with no noisy diesel engine ticking over.

 Driving the wheels is a 80kW permanent magnet motor, coupled directly to
 the
 original transfer case, delivering 442 lb ft (600Nm) of torque – that’s the
 same torque as a TDV6 Range Rover. High and low ratio, and diff lock, are
 both retained, so it should be as reliable in the rough stuff as regular
 ‘old-school’ Land Rover.

 It’s all pretty high-tech. Power comes from a 35kWh battery that delivers
 580V to a high-tech inverter that manipulates the DC current into a
 ‘precision controlled variable frequency three-phase AC sign wave’ current.
 That super-high voltage allows for greater efficiency and helps preserve
 the
 lifespan of the expensive lithium cells (aside from giving a good excuse to
 put AC/DC on the stereo…). Keeping it all safe are double layers of
 insulation, and plenty of fuses and contactors that isolate the inverter
 when the vehicle is switched off.

 Charging from a dedicated Electric Vehicle parking bay, using a simple
 30Amp
 230V single phase power source, takes just two to three hours in most
 cases,
 but a full charge from empty will take 6 hours. Electricity comes from the
 Victoria Falls hydroelectric power scheme.

 Freedom3’s range on the sandy tracks of Botswana is about 75 miles (120km),
 but on the open road she’ll manage 93 miles (150km) if driven carefully.
 Not
 bad considering Land Rover’s own electric Defender 110 development vehicles
 fizzled out after 50 miles (although to be fair, that’s with a train on the
 back – see our Oct 2013 issue!).

 She’s the first of a number of electric vehicles planned to come out of the
 collaboration between Freedom Won and the Chobe Game Lodge. Freedom Won
 started developing electric conversions ten years ago. You can read more
 about their previous projects by visiting the Freedom Won Website.
 [© lro.com]
 ...

 http://www.lro.com/news-reviews/2014/9/african-electric-defender-released-to-the-wild/#http://freedomwon.co.za/freedomwon.html



 For EVLN posts use:

 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=evlnsort=date


 http://www.torquenews.com/2250/lexus-proudly-persists-misleading-ev-attack-ad
 Lexus proudly persists with misleading anti-EV attack ad, again


 http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-electric-vehicle-sales-20140903-story.html
 Electrified car sales stall as buyers back away from hybrids
 ...

 http://www.plugincars.com/electric-car-sales-doing-fine-if-you-dont-count-hybrids-130081.html
 Electric Car Sales Doing Just Fine (If You Don't Count Hybrids)

 http://focustaiwan.tw/news/aeco/201409030019.aspx
 Hon Hai to develop $15k EVs in Shanxi, northern China
 ...

 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Hon-Hai-Foxconn-talks-electric-cars-priced-under-US-15-000-tp4670242.html
 Hon-Hai/Foxconn talks electric cars priced under US$15k [2014/06/05]


 http://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/transport_2_3194/islington_council_stopping_us_going_green_says_highbury_businessman_1_3748275
 Islington.uk blocking businesses from using public EVSE
 +
 EVLN: CA Initiatives Ca$h-in A Clunker  Buy An EV


 {brucedp.150m.com}



 --
 View this message in context:
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Freedom3-Electric-Defender-Released-To-The-African-Wilds-tp4671420.html
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
 Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Vehicle-apartheid! RI law punishes EV hybrid drivers

2014-08-21 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

George,

This seems typical of what is required to make major changes to highway
intersections, example... the requisite number of deaths. And sometimes,
it's not just one... There was a wye intersection between two highways
near my house growing up that had to have a log truck take out a car full
of kids, after several other smaller fatal wrecks, before they changed it
to a T with a stop sign for one direction.

I have not heard any instances yet of an emergency responder being
electrocuted by a hybrid or an EV. I know the local fire departments here
have done training specifically on Prius's a few years ago when they were
getting popular. There was a chopped apart, set on fire, prius in the lot
in front of one of the training facilities for a while, sparking rumors
from people who drove by and didn't know why it was there that Prius's
explode while parked, though.

Similarly, we tried a few years ago to get a solar license through the
state department of regulatory agencies... since the solar industry was
starting to boom and we were concerned about quality of the installation by
untrained people. Their answer was that there hadn't been any serious
complaint about quality yet, and no one had been killed, so there was no
need for a license. Well... there still haven't been any serious injuries
or deaths that I know about, but quality is definitely been a sore point in
this state, partially because you do not need any license (other than a
state licensed electrician to sign off on it, but that only covers about
25% of the system).

Zeke

On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:35 AM, George Tyler via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

Funny, I phoned the council not long ago to ask them to do something about
speeding cars in the rural dead end street past my house. They said they
would only do it if someone was killed or injured. I know of other similar
events where people were killed before they changed anything. It's all
based on statistics.
How many of the general population have been electrocuted by
electric cars?

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via EV
Sent: Thursday, 21 August 2014 8:24 p.m.
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Vehicle-apartheid! RI law punishes EV hybrid
drivers

This supposed electrocution hazard posed by electric vehicles is an all
too common myth.

First off, commercial EVs have an inertia switch which cuts the main
contractors at the pack. You are in a wreck, the power is automatically cut
off by the inertia switch. The only component with HV is the traction
battery itself.

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Re: [EVDL] As an aid when recommending an EV to someone else,

2014-08-03 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

good point Roland.  Living 11 miles from the closest gas station as I do,
with most of them at least 25 miles away, there have been days where I did
not have sufficient gas in my car to do a 40 mile trip (20 miles each way,
the other direction from the gas station), and had to turn it into a 62
mile trip -- going the opposite direction to get gas, first, then doing the
trip.  An EV would have been able to charge at the house and ready to go in
any direction from it.

As a side note, I'm seeing more and more leaf's up in the mountains, where
people never used to take EV's (we're a 4,000 foot climb above Boulder).
 I've seen them up at campgrounds up in the mountains and in Rocky Mountain
National Park and all kinds of places.  Not just inside the metro area any
more.

Z


On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 One more thing you can add in range comparison between a EV and a ICE is:

 I was ask what is the range of my electric,  I said it may have the same
 range of a ICE some of the time and more at other times.

 The EV has the same maximum range every day, because I charge it once a
 day or after each trip. Some ICE's do not have that maximum range daily,
 because they may only fill up once every two weeks or once a month.

 Thus the convenient of filling up the EV at home may only take 3.5 minutes
 to charge.

 Roland


   - Original Message -
   From: Dennis Miles via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org
   To: EVDL Administratormailto:evp...@drmm.net ; Electric Vehicle
 Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org
   Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 11:44 PM
   Subject: [EVDL] As an aid when recommending an EV to someone else,


   One question that a potential EV car buyer always asks is Just how far
 it
   will take me before another charge is needed? 

   Perhaps we should have another computation available, as comparison,
   for each vehicle:

   Cost to drive 40 miles (Average daily commute.) (Dollars per mile.)

   Time to drive 1,000 miles?

   Cost for all fuel consumed?

   Time to drive 2,000 miles ?

   Cost?

   Time to drive 3,000 miles ?

   Cost?

   Distance drivable in eight hours?

   Cost?

   Distance drivable in 16 hours ?

   Cost ?

   Footnote: assuming 65 mph average speed and stops as needed for charging
 or
   refueling.

   Not including driver's breaks for food and necessary stops...

   Dennis Lee Miles

   (*evprofes...@evprofessor.commailto:*evprofes...@evprofessor.com
 evprofes...@evprofessor.commailto:evprofes...@evprofessor.com)*

   * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

   *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

   *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
   intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

   *  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
 http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
   http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLsshttp://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss *
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Peugeot Dealer debunks EV-battery-fade theory

2014-08-02 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Not to be too far off topic, but I just did a ~500 mile round trip in my
prius I did the same trip when it was brand new, and now did it with
40k on it.  When new, I averaged 56mpg there, and 52mpg back.  Just now, I
averaged 65mpg there and 57mpg back (it's more uphill one way than the
other, though there are three mountain passes each way either way).  I
attribute this partially to more worn tires affecting the mpg calcs now,
but also to the car wearing in and being a little looser now than when it
was brand new and actually being more efficient.  An EV won't have quite a
many parts to wear the new-car stiffness out of as an ICE, but still you
have wheel bearings and transaxle and such.  This is well known (whether
it's true or not is a different matter I guess, but it's well known...)
that brand new engines take 10k mile to wear in and achieve design
efficiency.

It's also possible that I've learned to drive more efficiently over two
years time driving it...

Zeke


On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

  On Aug 1, 2014, at 10:54 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

  How many people really worry about loss of efficiency?

 Apparently many people on this list. (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
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Re: [EVDL] e-volks upgrade....

2014-07-18 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Update and EV grin.  I took the VW bug out for the first serious drive
with Lithium last night.  WOW.

Before -- with the 12 volt AGMs.  I was getting maybe 280 amps peak battery
amperage on a freshly charged pack, dropping to less than 100 amps after 5
miles or so.  Pathetic performance (lots of driving on the shoulder).

With the 100AH, 72 volts of CALB lithium, I was regularly getting 200 amps
on acceleration, and I got 370 amps peak once (should probably not do that
too much for the health of the batteries).  The alltrax 450 never even got
warm, with it's new heat sink and cooling fan. It's peppy now... way more
than a ICE VW bug.  30mph up hill, and can pull out onto the highway just
fine (highway being the 45mph road -- not 75mph freeway).  And... the motor
(6.7 series) is actually running cooler than before as well.  I think
because the controller is able to keep the speed up, the motor RPM is not
dropping like it was before, so it's actually cooling better with its
internal fan.  And, it takes less time to climb the hill when you can keep
up 30mph instead of 15.  After climbing a two mile hill at 250+ battery
amps most the way, it was hot but not too hot to hold onto.  I kept it in
2nd up to about 40, then switched to 3rd for more power on the highway.
 1st is able to peel out in the dirt.  I'm sure that driving it like that
doesn't help the efficiency, but it's way more fun that it was as a lead
sled (it's also about 400lbs lighter).  One thing 50mph around curves
is a little scary... something to do with standard suspension and brakes of
a '73 VW bugI only took 20AH out of them, because I don't have the
BMS connected to the controller yet, but this weekend, I'll do a full range
test with the BMS operating.

Makes me want to get lithium for my Ford Courier conversion now.

Z


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Zeke Yewdall zyewd...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes... those calculations make sense... at the 200 to 300 amp range, I'm
 getting about 10 to 15  minutes at most before it start getting serious
 current limit... which implies that the batteries are actually functioning
 per specs... just that I'm wanting more power than they can deliver.

 Z


 On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Don Bradley sonom...@sonic.net wrote:

 Hi Zeke,
 In looking at your battery spec, it indicates the 12 volt battery
 is 391 watts per cell constant discharge for 15 minutes to 1.67 volts per
 cell. If I divide the 391 watts by 2 volts per cell, it comes out to 195.5
 Amps for 15 minutes for the voltage to drop to 1.67 volts per cell.

 You mention that you are drawing 300 battery Amps at times, which is 100
 Amps more. looking at the chart indicates 505 Watts constant discharge per
 cell for 10 minutes. at 2 volts per cell, that 's 252.5 Amps.


 Does it seem reasonable that with high current draw(acceleration, going
 up a hill, high speed) you don't have much time before your batteries are
 discharged?

 Don


 On 8/29/2013 12:08 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:

 Sorry... I posted the details a long time ago.
 Photo of it on top of the mountain today:
 http://sphotos-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1240063_
 605592482816967_962234180_n.jpg

 For current reference:
 It's a 1973 VW superbug with the e-volk #2 kit...
 http://www.e-volks.com/about2.html?

 It was an interesting conversion that was virtually undriveable when I
 first got my hands on it.  Some odd design choices too (for example, the
 original starter motor was left attached to both the ignition key and the
 transmission... so everytime you started it, the 12 volt starter motor
 would rev up briefly -- I thought it was sending a surge to the main
 drive
 motor when you started it, but then found that.  Hmm. could
 probably lose 10lbs by taking that out.

 Controller is the Alltrax 7245
 Motor is 6.7 series DC by DD direct coupled to transmission -- in this
 case, I can shift through all the gears just fine without a clutch,
 except
 1st I have to rev the motor a tiny bit to get it in there if it's moving
 already and I'm downshifting from 2nd.

 Batteries are 12 volt 100AH AGM UPS batteries
 http://www.npstelecom.com/pdfs/Dyn_UPS/UPS_12-370.pdf
 72 volt nominal system, 74lbs each (444lbs total) + auxiliary battery
 (which is a standard starter battery instead of a deep cycle... ugh).
   Those batteries look like pretty high rate batteries... no real idea on
 how old they are though -- they are used taken out of UPS systems I
 think...

 I've added a Xantrex AH meter and some circuit breakers and such, and an
 Elcon 1200 watt charger.  No DC-DC, separately charging the 12 volt
 auxiliary battery.

 It's incredibly fun to drive for a few miles now, till the current limit
 kills the performance... but not quite long enough range to be actually
 useful yet 7 or 8 miles is a long as I'm getting before current limit
 is shutting it down to snail pace.

 What do people think of the Concorde AGM batteries?  Wondering if that
 might be an

Re: [EVDL] Solar now under $1.50 INSTALLED in Maryland

2014-06-30 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

In Colorado, they only work with one of the utilities here (the one with
some minimal incentives). They typically won't work with any of the other
utilities that don't offer incentives, or who have a limited pool of
incentives. We do a lot of work with the other utilities, consequently :)

I have mixed feelings about them. Opening up access to solar to people
without the up front cash is good... but the number of local companies that
have gone under due to low cost leases being offered by solar city (and a
few others), and the number of orphaned PV systems with no warrantee any
more is not good.

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 7:41 AM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

I have 9.3kw of SolarCity cells on my house using their Power Purchase
Agreement (PPA) and they've been great to work with. With a PPA I
basically agreed to buy all the electricity the panels produce. They
would have installed it with absolutely no money out of my pocket but I
elected to pay them $1000 to lock my rate in for 20 years. Payback was
four years based on historical electric company rate changes but they
raised it 15% this past January so my payback will be even quicker.

They're not in every state, though, and I suspect that the ones they are
in are the ones with the best state incentives.

--Rick

On 06/29/2014 04:01 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

I am interested in Solarcity. They offer a way for people with less
funds
and credit to get solar on their house. But, I have not figured out
quite
how they operate in all the various situations that people find
themselves
in vis a vis their utility and local government.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 2015 Kia Soul EV will be sold in CA, OR, NY, NJ MD (video)

2014-06-18 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

Not planning to sell it outside of compliance states seems to indicate that
it's a compliance model, to me. They did say that it's in states with
significant EV infrastructure... whatever that means (I figured that
virtually everywhere in the US has electrical outlets -- what more do you
need to charge an EV ??

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

Hi Bruce,

I was wondering how do we know they plan for the Soul EV to be a compliance
only model? I don't remember anything in that article saying so. Isn't
compliance vehicle a pejorative we bestow after they sell them in low
numbers only?Or is it an official term that the manufacturer would
admit to?

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:04 PM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014, at 07:01 AM, Mike Nickerson wrote: ...
It drives me nuts when they brag about how the reduced LED power usage
will
increase range. I'm all for conservation, but a few watts difference
to
the display pales in comparison to the 75 kW motor!

From newswire:
The dash of the Soul EV features one of the most advanced screen
technologies available in the world, OLED. OLED, Organic Light Emitting
Diode technology is perfect for EV usage as it uses a fraction of the
electricity of standard LCD screens and it produces virtually no heat.
That
means less electricity to power your dash, and more power stays in the
batteries.

Their statement is not inaccurate, but the fact they mention it, like you
say, lends too much emphasis (the writer's EV fears) on saving energy.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014, at 07:12 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Looks pretty nice. Might be a strong competitor to the Leaf depending
on
real world experience and pricing ...

I have previously posted how Kia has been making lots of promotion noise
about their EV long before Soul came to the U.S. market

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Soul-will-become-Kia-s-first-mass-exported-EV-tp4658488.html

I also posted on Kia's sister company Hyundai is going fcv like TMC

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Hyundai-Down-on-EVs-But-Likes-H2-Electrics-leak-energy-tp4664338.html

The Soul EV is like all the other compliance cars selling a
non-purpose-built EV: an ice model retrofitted by the factory. The Soul
ice
has been around for a while
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Soul

The above wiki URL says that the Soul EV will have DC L3 charging, so I
will
assume that is CHAdeMO. Which means if you get a Kia Soul EV, you can use
the vast amount of CHAdeMO L3 EVSE

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/stations/results?utf8=%E2%9C%93location=u.s.a.filtered=truefuel=ELECowner=allpayment=allev_dc_fast=trueradius=trueradius_miles=500

How well their EV sells will depend on marketing, pricing, support,
features, +more.

{brucedp.150m.com}

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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
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happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
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Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
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http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google
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Re: [EVDL] Compliance Cars : EVLN: 2015 Kia Soul EV ...

2014-06-12 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

My opinion on compliance cars is that where they are sold are a hugh
factor... if they are only sold in CA and other compliance states, that's a
big giveaway. If they are sold in all 50 states... probably not. I
wouldn't put having it as the same model as a ICE version as a sign of a
compliance car. That could actually be just to make it seem that EV's are
nore normal -- buy the Kia Soul, whether you get the EV or the ICE
version of it... rather than something special that has to be it's own
model. So far, I have not heard plans from the dealers in Colorado to
sell the Soul EV (and Kia is advertising big here in Colorado right now,
opening a bunch of new dealerships).

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 9:29 PM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

IMO, it is too soon to make any decision on the Kia Soul EV which is based
on
one of their ice-model platforms, as it has not been released into buyers
hands yet to get driver feedback on the EV. If you like that EV, I would
wait until it is available and then join a Soul EV discussion forum
https://www.google.com/search?q=Soul+EV+forum
to obtain that actual owner feedback.

Here is a post I made about how Leaf drivers provided such feedback

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Critical-Mass-Leaf-community-shares-their-experiences-tp4668627.html

The wording or your previous question, and now this question (using the
word
blacklisted), leaves me to feel you may still have the wrong/inaccurate
idea
about compliance cars.

First, a compliance car speaks of the automaker's EV-commitment (how well
their EV is designed and supported, or either how long they will continue
making EVs, before they jump onto the fcv bandwagon, or just go all
phev/pih, etc.). This is also where how much of a marketing effort they
make
comes in (whether the automaker spends the $ to advertize in the same way
that they do with their vehicles that have an ice, etc.).

Second, a compliance car may, or may-not have a following (buyers wanting
it) based on whether the EV has the abilities and features today's EV buyer
wants (fits the customer's needs, has a L3 ability, several driving modes,
at an affordable price, etc.).

Lets take the Honda Fit EV as an example.
Honda did pay for a few newswires to promote Fit EV sales, see

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Fit-EV-an-all-electric-Swiss-Army-knife-td4667925.html

A Fit EV driver loved-the-heck out of his, see

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Kamm-racing-his-Fit-EV-on-frozen-ice-surfaces-tp4667953.html

Yet, Honda limited its production to save money (showing their
non-EV-commitment), see

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Why-you-can-t-buy-Honda-s-2014-Fit-EV-in-North-America-td4667842.html

Then Honda met their quota, and stopped producing them, see

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Honda-will-end-Fit-EV-production-in-2014-Deja-vu-tp4668204.html

I could go on and on with other examples, but this automaker showed their
hand as not being committed to producing EVs. Loss of support after
production has stopped is a threat with an uncommitted automaker.

Yet, some drivers like their compliance EV. They like the way it looks
(does
not look odd like an egg or Jetson's car, etc.). Some people are OK, with
its price and limitations.

I am seeing more and more Fiat 500e EVs on the road or in parking lots now.
I posted how their CEO whined that he does not like EVs

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Their-CEO-sez-Don-t-buy-the-Fiat-500e-EV-tp4669611.html
, yet people like their compliance EV

On the other hand, like the really sharp gal I talked who was a new Leaf EV
owner

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVangel-About-Ford-still-pushing-their-pih-One-smart-new-Leaf-driver-tp4669625.html
she had done her (research) homework and felt the Leaf EV (had the highest
trim with 6kW-L2 and L3 options) was the best choice and deal for her.
Nissan is one of the automakers that has shown their EV-commitment and she
can bank on having long-term support for her EV. As well as a good resale
value if she every wants to trade-in or sell her Leaf EV.

You see it is not that the EV is necessarily blacklisted. It depends on the
buyer to decide if it fits their needs. As one of many EVangels, it is up
to
us to cut through all the media hype and give the buying public the
straight
facts and leads for more information (links, forums, etc.) so the buyer can
make an informed choice to buy, or not-buy a compliance car EV.

{brucedp.150m.com}

-
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014, at 04:57 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Bruce, any opinion on the Soul EV? It looks too well designed to be a
compliance car but, then, so did some of the other blacklisted models.
-

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Re: [EVDL] EV EPA ratings: 2014 i-MiEV, most affordable EV in America arrives this spring

2014-05-23 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

The Nissan dealership here is including the Leaf in their normal Nissan
radio ads in Denver -- overblown announcer voice touts the big 4wd SUV, the
sporty coupe, the electric leaf, all in the same ad. And they claim
$99/month lease for it too (Not sure what that turns into in the real
world, but that's what they're advertising at least).

On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

According to
https://www.google.com/#q=nissan+leaf+profitable
news items says the Leaf EV has been profitable since the end of 2013.
But remember their numbers might be including all sales, and in some
parts of the world the price of the Leaf is not as low as in other areas
(like in U.S. states that have regs requiring EV sales).

From what I have lightly read in the forums, here in the SF, CA bay
area, the amount of profit-taking (sales types jacking up the price)
varies on where you are. Leaf prices can be especially high near
affluent areas where the rich do not want to hunt for a better price.
So, sales types dealerships are making lots of profit on the Leaf EV.

An EV history note: the first production Leaf to come to the SF bay area
was one of those 'buy it at the lower price' dealerships, but 'live and
get service elsewhere' purchases (a wise/frugal approach). The driver
used the mynissanleaf.com forum to know that the SF north bay Novato
dealership had the best purchase deal. Then Nissan used that as a media
EVent when the owner drove their Leaf south to their SF Peninsula
residence.

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/1st-Leaf-EV-being-delivered-to-Redwood-City-CA-customer-td3078469.html

The i-Miev is a good EV with sound engineering behind it (sadly, it was
designed for the average person, not my my type of
normal-sizebig+tall). A couple of iMiev EVs were tricked out to race up
Pikes Peak. In fact, even in an accident at that race, the iMiev EVs did
well

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=iMiev+%22Pikes+Peak%22days=0

But you have to know there is a major reason the iMiev cost's less
their pack is smaller (meaning less range for lead foots, or faster
recharging for charging nuts like me). As has been posted, actual iMiev
drivers can quote their real-life iMiev range. And you can ask in one of
their forums http://myimiev.com

...
Which brings up a sore point for me. The EPA mileage rating missed when
rating plugins because ice are not that concerned with outside weather
temperatures what is the range at cold temperatures (like during PA
winters)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evsbs.shtml#small-cars

So, instead of the old-school city/highway ratings, I propose it would
be better to be like:
% of reduction in range in freezing temperatures / city speeds
(stop-n-go)./ highway speeds (@a constant 65mph)

Having that rating type of rating would be much more helpful to the
newbie driver they would know what to expect depending on where they
live and drive.

{brucedp.150m.com}

On Fri, May 23, 2014, at 06:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
At the time I bought my Leaf, the i-miev was only slightly cheaper (once
you
factored-in quick charge and maybe something else - I can't remember). I
thought given roughly the same price that since the Leaf could carry 5
passengers, had a bit more range, and a bit more torque, it was the
better
deal.

Now Mitsubishi has dropped the price dramatically. It sounds very
attractive to me.

One big question - what is the real real world range. I get 50-55
miles
in winter with my 2011 Leaf. Can the mitsi beat that?
-

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Re: [EVDL] Solar now under $1.50 INSTALLED in Maryland

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 2015 Kia Soul EV will be sold in CA, OR, NY, NJ MD (video)

Re: [EVDL] Compliance Cars : EVLN: 2015 Kia Soul EV ...

Re: [EVDL] EV EPA ratings: 2014 i-MiEV, most affordable EV in America arrives this spring

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