Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Several Tesla-S EV Software & Hardware Updates Since 2012

[robert winfield via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Elon-Musk-Wants-To-Open-Tesla-Supercharger-Stations-To-All-EVs-tp4669911.html

a few thoughts on Tesla open sourcing. it looks like they will become
the defacto fast charge, forcing other car makers to conform to Tesla
standards, etc etc. long ev trip. 
Tesla, along with Solar City, will become energy management company(s)
open source will force other companies to use the supercharger business model 
("free" paid up front)
(how far can you drive an EV on between $1,500 - $2,500 electricity)(appx 
15,000-25,000kWh)
the majority of charging will still be at home or work

from a prescient article 15 months ago, 3/26/2103. a snip from a seeking alpha
post  [IP is intellectual property, patents]
===snip==
Burying the SuperCharger cost in the vehicle price and delivering
'free' recharging is powerfully competitive for the following reasons:

•Tesla can encourage participation and SuperCharger compatibility as
a condition for partners and licensees accessing Tesla's best-available
EV technology.

•The synergy between Tesla style battery design, thermal control,
SOC management, and SuperCharger functionality naturally precludes cars
of different design using the system.

•SuperCharging at a price of 'free' leaves little room for competing
fast recharge service providers.

The rapid-recharging business offers at least as great an opportunity
for Tesla as the electric car business. While Tesla's advanced electric
car technology and IP gives them competitive advantage in the car
business, Tesla would need to raise vast amounts of capital and displace
powerful, established incumbents before reaping the benefits of industry
dominance building cars. By building only enough cars to demonstrate the
superiority and lower costs of their technology, licensing partners,
then taking on the rapid-recharging business, Tesla can grow
dramatically without having to compete against existing car companies
and without needing to raise outsized amounts of new capital.

Pursuing the SuperCharger business, leveraged by their electric car
expertise, IP, large car maker partners, and innovative 'free' pricing,
positions Tesla to dominate the rapid-recharging business and profit
from disruption as electric motors and batteries replace ICEs and gas
tanks. 

While their partners and licensees drive disruption of the car business,
Tesla can make a bundle for their shareholders by dominating the
rapid-recharging business that enables electric car road trips
-

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Re: [EVDL] $1.7 Trillion reinvested (emissions free travel forever)

[robert winfield via EV]

"An average EV drives say 10k mi/yr at 3kwh per mile or
 30,000 kWh per car"

misplaced a decimal point Bob.
appx 3,000kWh/yr, not 30,000 for 10,000 miles

On Thu, 6/26/14, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] $1.7 Trillion reinvested (emissions free travel forever)
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Thursday, June 26, 2014, 10:12 AM
 
 Remember this solar investment is the
 upfront cost.  From then on, it has
 paid for free transportation energy for emissions free EV's
 forever...
 
 Lets try this
 
 $1.7T divided by $3.30/Watt cost of solar = 500 BWatts of
 capacity.
 
 In Maryland each kW of solar capacity delivers about 1200
 kWh of energy per
 year.
 
 So the result is $1.7M generates 600 B kWh per year
 forever.
 An average EV drives say 10k mi/yr at 3kwh per mile or
 30,000 kWh per car
 But remember this investment buys continuous FREE power from
 the sun FOREVER
 (25-to-50 yrs anyway)
 So the $1.7T investment would power 20 million EV's
 FOREVER.
 
 And since we ALSO spend over $1B per DAY for foreign oil,
 that is another 4
 million EVs PER YEAR that can be added to the list of
 continuously powered
 (forever) emission free transportation from the sun.
 
 At that rate it will be 1/3rd of our 300 million USA car
 fleet in 20 years.
 
 Why aren't we doing this?
 
 Bob, WB4APR
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org]
 On Behalf Of Peter Eckhoff via
 EV
 Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:32 AM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: [EVDL] $1.7 Trillion reinvested
 
 The purported cost of the Iraqi War so far has been $1.7
 trillion (1.7 x
 10^12).Whether this is war was worth it is **not** up for
 discussion here.
 This is strictly an exercise in examining what effect those
 funds would have
 had if applied differently. I would appreciate your vetting
 the thoughts and
 numbers below.
 
 The question is: "What if those funds had been used for
 installing solar
 panels for recharging a fleet of electric vehicles?" What
 does a “back of
 the envelope” set of calculations indicate as to whether
 such an investment
 would be viable and possibly pursued further?
 
 Assume for discussion purposes:
 
 1)Each panel is rated at 250 watts. (Ref:
 http://www.suncityenergy.com/solarpanelratings/) This
 is in a common size
 (+/- a few watts).The rating assumes a standard irradiance
 of 1,000 whr
 /m^2.
 
 2)Each panel costs $1250 installed which is $5/watt for a
 commercially
 installed panel. Some will self install and some will have a
 higher
 commercially installed array.
 
 3)Each panel receives an average of 2 kwhr/m^2/day.This is
 doable in almost
 all parts of the lower 48 States and Hawaii in December, the
 worse month for
 solar over all.The Puget Sound - Portland (OR) and Alaska
 areas are the two
 exceptions.Most areas referenced below are well above 2
 kwhr/m^2/day; some
 with a factor of 3 or greater.
 
 (Ref: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/1961-1990/redbook/atlas)
 
 4)How far will an electric vehicle go using 1 kwhr of
 electricity.?
 
 ·Pickups can travel roughly 2 to 3 miles.
 
 ·Sedans can travel roughly 3 to 5 miles.
 
 ·A Tesla Model S with an EPA rated range of 265 miles with
 a 85 kwhr pack
 onboard produces a calculated average about 3 miles per
 kwhr.
 
 ·A range of 3 miles per kwhr was used below as an average
 
 To derive the amount of mileage that can be driven in a day
 electrically,
 the above panels and factors were multiplied together like
 so:
 
 _$1.7 x 10^12 _* _250w panel_ * _1 kw _* 1 hr * _2 kwhr sol
 m^2/day_ *
 _3 mi_
 
 $1250 panel10^3w 1 kwhr std m^2/daykwhr
 
 This produces a result of 2.04 billion miles.
 
 How does this equate to miles driven per day using an
 equivalent gasoline
 powered sedan?
 
 Assume for discussion purposes:
 
 1)The USA uses 20 million Barrels of Oil Per Day (BOPD).In
 recent years,
 this figure has decreased to about 18 million BOPD.
 
 2)Each barrel of oil can be refined to produce 18 gallons of
 gasoline.This
 is close to the actual production figure.
 
 To derive the amount of average car miles that can be driven
 in a day using
 gasoline, the above factors were multiplied together like
 so:
 
 20 million BOPD * 18 gallons of gasoline/BOPD * 20
 Miles/Gallon = 7.2
 billion miles/day
 
 We drive roughly 7.200 billion miles per day.
 
 21 million BOPD over 7.2 billion miles driven per day
 produces a rough
 factor of 3 (x10^-3).If we multiply 2.04 billion electric
 only miles driven
 times this factor, we would equate this to using about 6
 million BOPD.This
 is roughly the amount of our oil imports.
 
 While a $1.7 trillion dollar investment in solar panels will
 not be a
 substitute for all the oil we use, it would likely reduce
 our energy
 consumption by 6 million BOPD; enough for us to be ‘energy
 independent’
 with maybe a little conservation added.
 
 How long would it take to pay this investment off?
 
 If elec

[EVDL] http://teslaroadtrip.org/event-outline

[robert winfield via EV]

http://teslaroadtrip.org/event-outline

tesla road trip/convoy 7/12- 7/17 from Newark Delaware to Folsom, California. 
(and back)
apparently they got invited to a barbeque in California.
4 starting and at least a dozen Tesla's ending as they join up.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BMW&Daimler developing 3-Hour Wireless Inductive EVSE for i3 EV

[robert winfield via EV]

will it induce eddy currents in metallic jewelry or clasps or such in clothing 
worn by occupants.
(My car warms me before we leave in the morning...)

On Thu, 7/17/14, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: BMW&Daimler developing 3-Hour Wireless Inductive EVSE 
for i3 EV
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Thursday, July 17, 2014, 4:58 AM
 
 
 
 Wireless EV Charging on the Horizon, But is It Safe?
 
 
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/cables-needed-bmw-daimler-working-wireless-charging-technology-evs/
 No cables needed: BMW and Daimler working on wireless
 charging technology
 for EVs
 By Andrew Hard — July 11, 2014
 
 [image  
 http://icdn2.digitaltrends.com/image/rsz_p90155654.jpg
 Wireless Charging Technology
 ]
 
 With the help of BMW and Daimler, electric vehicles are
 taking the next step
 toward worry-free ownership.
 
 The German automakers recently announced a joint effort to
 develop a
 wireless charging system for the i3 electric vehicle and i8
 plug-in hybrid.
 
 EVs don’t need oil changes, filter replacements, or
 emissions testing, so
 they’re already extremely convenient to own. If the
 inductive wireless
 charging technology is viable, EV owners won’t even need
 to worry about
 refueling.
 
 BMW and Daimler’s charging tech works in the same way
 wireless cell phone
 chargers do, just on a larger scale. An alternating magnetic
 field transmits
 energy between two sets of coils: one mounted onto the
 car’s parking area
 (usually a garage floor), and a secondary coil on the
 vehicle itself.
 
 The array transmits energy at a charging rate of 3.6
 kilowatts, which,
 according to BMW, is enough to fully charge an i8 in under
 two hours. The
 German engineers predict they can increase that rate to 7.0
 kW in the
 future.
 
 The circular design of the coils comes in a compact,
 lightweight package
 that is equal parts subtle and slick. The floor-mounted
 baseplate will
 function even when exposed to rain and snow, and the car’s
 receiver coil can
 be activated with the push of a button.
 
 To keep the neighborhood cats safe and grounded, the current
 is
 automatically shut off if any foreign bodies are detected.
 BMW allows users
 to monitor the charging process with the i Wallbox and
 accompanying
 smartphone app.
 
 As always, BMW strives to be an innovator. In May, the
 German company
 announced a solar-powered carport that would allow i3 and i8
 owners to
 charge their vehicles easily and conveniently at home.
 
 The i Solar Concept gathers energy from the sun and funnels
 it into the
 customer’s car. If the vehicle is charged, owners can
 siphon excess power
 into their residence. The carport is even made from green
 materials like
 bamboo and carbon fiber, making the energy source as
 sustainable as the cars
 themselves.
 [© digitaltrends.com]
 ...
 
http://ecomento.com/2014/07/08/bmw-and-daimler-co-develop-wireless-electric-car-charging/
 BMW and Daimler co-develop wireless electric car charging
 July 8, 2014 – Richard Lane
 ...
 
http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2014/07/08/bmw-and-daimler-team-up-for-wireless-charging-for-evs/
 BMW and Daimler team up for wireless charging for EVs
 ...
 
http://www.worldtechtoday.com/bmw-working-on-three-hour-wireless-inductive-charging-for-i3-i8-and-x5/12426/edward-jones
 BMW Working on Three-Hour Wireless Inductive Charging for
 i3, i8 and X5
 July 10, 2014
 
 
 
 
http://www.mnn.com/your-home/remodeling-design/sponsorstory/wireless-ev-charging-on-the-horizon-but-is-it-safe
 Wireless EV Charging on the Horizon, But is It Safe?
 [July 15, 2014]
 
 
 
 
 For all EVLN posts use:
 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
 
 
https://suncountryhighway.ca/news-media/2014/07/businessman-leads-drive-charging-stations/
 CanadianTire.ca 1st free EVSE EVent 11a-12:30p 7/17
 St-Catharines, ON
 
 
http://jalopnik.com/heres-how-the-nissan-leaf-is-built-from-recycled-fridge-1602309135
 Here's How The Nissan Leaf Is Built From Recycled Fridges
 And Clothing
 
 
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/jul/09/electric-boris-car-source-london-how-work-paris-autolib
 Electric ‘Boris cars’ coming to London> biggest
 concern is pigeons
 ...
 
http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/59399/electric-car-sharing-scheme-comes-to-london-from-france
 Electric car-sharing scheme comes to London from France
 
 http://green.autoblog.com/2014/07/09/evs-popping-up-where-you-might-not-expect/
 EVs popping up where you might not expect, Mongolia,
 Seychelles, Nepal
 
 
http://icelandreview.com/news/2014/07/07/two-hundred-electric-car-stations-be-set
 'Even' to install 200 public 'free-to-use' EVSE in Iceland
 by 2015
 +
 EVLN: $42k 2014 Mercedes-Benz B-Class EV r:87mi
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-BMW-Daimler-developing-3-Hour-Wireless-

[EVDL] win a Tesla

[robert winfield via EV]

http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/07/win-tesla-motors-model-s/

win a Tesla


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[EVDL] Prius as an emergency 1kW generator

[robert winfield via EV]

Prius UPS
http://www.priups.com/others/

Another web page dedicated to using a Prius as an emergency 1kW generator



On Sat, 7/26/14, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] Designing in additional incentives to increase plugin  
purchases
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Saturday, July 26, 2014, 7:13 AM
 
 
 
 I've posted about the U.S. Government's push for V2G, and we
 all know of
 CARB regulations making it painful for Automakers if they do
 not make an
 effort to get credits so they can sell their profitable ice.
 But there are
 likely items plugin-makers could design-in to increase
 plugin sales.
 
 Today' plugin buyer's current incentive is saving money at
 the pump. The
 original, 'saving the planet' impetus is now less important
 to today's
 plugin buyer. They are more concerned about their view while
 standing in
 their wallet. It isn't until later 'after' their plugin
 purchase that they
 begin to understand what 'we' already know: all the many
 other benefits of
 driving Electric. 
 
 While I hope my current health issues don't make me miss the
 annual Silicon
 Valley EVent at De Anza College on Sept. 20 10a–4p
 http://eaasv.org
 I been thinking a lot about what the public talks about each
 time I have
 gone. That got me thinking of what other incentives plugins
 could have
 built-in to their designs to give even more sway/weight to
 help with plugin
 purchases. 
 
 Recently, the U.S. east coast dodged a bullet, as the
 hurricane was not as
 bad as in previous years
 http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/04/us/holiday-weather/
 Hurricane Arthur races off East Coast, dumping rain but
 doing little damage
 
 So, I began to think, if the power is out at your home, what
 are the most
 important items to keep powered if a level-1 power source
 was made available
 (like if the home owner had a small genset)? 
 
 I would think it would be the refrigerator, a cell phone
 charger, and
 another low power device (TV/radio, tablet/netbook/laptop,
 etc.). A 120VAC
 20A source should easily handle that.
 
 Given that the chance of being without power is far less
 likely throughout
 the year, the purchase of a small genset and the fire hazard
 of keeping a
 can of fuel around may discourage some home owners from
 getting one.
 
 But, what if that plugin (EV or plug-in-hybrid) came with a
 built-in level-1
 (L1) outlet powered by an inverter drawing from the
 vehicle's pack?
 
 -The home owner on a skinny/frugal budget would just run an
 extension cord
 to the refrigerator to keep it powered up.
 
 -At an additional cost, there may also be a way to have a
 'local V2G/UPS
 system' that would kick-in if there were a power outage.
 
 As in: the house would be wired so that a specific 120VAC
 20A outlet which
 powered the refrigerator, and the other devices are plugged
 into it, which
 would automaticall switch to use the power from the plugin's
 pack if their
 was an power outage. I am not saying that local V2G would
 supply power to
 the outside grid. Just a small setup to keep a couple
 critical/important
 electrical items powered.
 
 Hospitals, Hi-tech and other companies usually have a small
 UPS that lasts
 long enough for an outside genset to kick in, else allow
 their computers to
 shutdown cleanly before all the UPS power is spent. So,
 having a plugin
 offering a L1 outlet would be like having a UPS power
 source.
 
 This would be a good point in favor of purchasing a plugin
 as it could also
 be a power source for:
 -home emergencies (like a power outage)
 -out in remote areas where there is no power (picnics,
 camping, etc.)
 - +more uses
 
 In the case of a pih, the plugin-maker could design an idle
 mode that would
 charge the pack while it is being used as the forementioned
 L1 power source.
 In a pinch, a pih could recharge an EV enough to get it to a
 public EVSE.
 
 While the typical pih 20 to 40 mile e-range may have a
 smaller pack (~11kW)
 when compared to a ~70-90mi EV, the power of several pih
 could be
 tapped/ganged/combined for a greater shared kW capacity
 (multiple pih in the
 family).
 
 The plugin buyer could justify the plugin purchase price
 because now they do
 not need to buy and maintain a genset and or deal with its
 chemical fuel
 hazard (or old gasoline going stale & gummy).
 
 This idea is not likely new, as many plugin owners have
 bought an off the
 shelf inverter to use off their 12V battery. But that is
 much more
 inefficient than powering the inverter directly off the high
 voltage pack. I
 am saying there is a business opportunity to provide
 plugin-makers with a
 off the shelf inverter product that could be integrated into
 the vehicle's
 design, and or offered as an add-on option on later plugin
 models or
 EV-conversions.
 
 
 Note: I had this idea before Google's Inverter Challenge
 newswires came out
 
 
http://transportevolved.com/2014/07/24/googles-1million-power-inverter-challenge-revolutionise-way-use-electric-car/
 Google’s $1

[EVDL] Grid tied Islanding for EV's and homes and refrigerators

[robert winfield via EV]

Already being done by Solar City. You can Island your house when the grid is 
down 
http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage


 On Jul 26, 2014, at 4:13
 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote:
 
 > But, what if
 that plugin (EV or plug-in-hybrid) came with a built-in
 level-1
 > (L1) outlet powered by an
 inverter drawing from the vehicle's pack?
 
 I'd love to have some
 variation on this theme. Actually, I'll have a dedicated
 30 A circuit for vehicle charging. It'd be great to be
 able to flip a switch and run that in reverse in case of
 power outages.
 
 My roof is
 already covered in solar panels, but it's a grid-tie
 system that shuts off instantly when the grid does so
 linemen don't get fried. But if I could isolate my house
 from the grid on demand and if the car could provide a
 sufficiently grid-like output to make the PV inverter think
 the grid was back up, I could still run the whole house
 (including air conditioning, which isn't exactly
 optional in the summer in Phoenix) during the day and then
 through the night from the car, possibly with the assist of
 the ICE (and a couple jack stands, as it'd be a
 direct-drive setup). I'd shut down everything
 non-essential, of course, and use the hibachi to cook
 instead of the electric stove / microwave / etc., but I
 generate enough excess that I'd be basically okay off
 the grid...if I could store enough to make it through the
 night.
 
 Is anybody aware of
 anything available today that would do something like
 this?
 
 Bonus points if
 it's available in a charger that I'd otherwise
 consider putting in the car
 
 b&
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for7 credits

[robert winfield via EV]

or perhaps known as centralized vs decentralized control.
you gotta use our H2 or our gasoline, or fossil fuel or our electricity instead 
of collecting your own electrons at much less cost.

$2.75 trillion revenue for 11 fossil fuel companies last year. 
electric companies complaining about 1% drop in revenue stream due to 
renewables, so slow the tranistion of wealth and power in any way

I love my (PH)EV and make part of the electricity I use in it every day

Until you get either a starship and jump to the eagle nebula (pillars of 
creation) or a scoopship and dive/collect jupiters atmosphere, H2 will e a very 
inefficient method of running vehicles.
many folks have huge sunk costs (already invested) intellectually and 
financially in fool cells and need to die off before the idea goes away


On Tue, 7/29/14, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min   
for7 credits
 To: "Marion Hakanson" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 
 Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2014, 10:24 AM
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 > On Jul 28, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Marion
 Hakanson via EV 
 wrote:
 > 
 > I have a
 cousin who lives in Italy.  They own a small Fiat van which
 runs on both methane (compressed) and regular gasoline; 
 Apparently it costs the equivalent of $20 to fill the
 methane tank, and about $100 to fill the gas tank (which
 they'll do if they're in the hinterlands and
 can't find a methane station).
 > 
 > If most H2 comes from methane (natural
 gas), why not just burn the methane directly, instead of
 converting it multiple times (and losing something at every
 step), so you can feed it to a fuel cell?
 
 For the same reason there is a
 ZEV mandate and you want a power plant to burn the natural
 gas and give you electricity to run your battery electric.
 
 
 Emissions.
 
 Remember, ZEV stands for zero
 emission vehicles.
 
 
 
 > 
 >
 Regards,
 > 
 >
 Marion
 > 
 >> On
 07/28/14 10:30 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:
 >> https://greet.es.anl.gov/
 >> 
 >> I have
 looked at it in the past.  One thing to look at when
 someone reports results of the model:
 >> 
 >> Everything
 is configurable in the model.  Make sure the assumptions
 about generation and usage are well understood (either left
 to defaults or well documented).  It is very easy to sway
 the outcome with changes in assumptions.
 >> 
 >> In many
 cases, the changes can be realistic, but they need to be
 vetted.  For example, running the model for Idaho, the
 electrical grid is more than 50% renewable and less than 30%
 coal.  Those assumptions for New York would be very
 wrong.  I believe the defaults are national averages.
 >> 
 >> Mike
 >> 
 >> 
 >>> On July 28, 2014 7:33:57 PM MDT,
 Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:
 >>> All data I have seen
 till now shows that emissions go up with the
 >>> indroduction of H2, due to the low
 efficiency well-to-wheels of
 >>>
 creating
 >>> H2.
 >>> So, it is considered not just a
 very difficult energy carrier, but also
 >>> inefficient, besides being very
 costly in roll out.
 >>> If you have
 data to the contrary, I am interested in vetting it
 (since
 >>> it is easy to mislead
 with cherry-picked info). My mind is open, I tend
 >>> to decide
 >>> based on data. Fan-boy? Not so
 much.
 >>> Got a link for that GREET
 model?
 >>> 
 >>> Cor van de Water
 > 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

[robert winfield via EV]

here is a google docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of a honda 
oddsey vs a tesla and other high end large vehicles to decide on a tesla EV 
that is free for downloading.
"It's so expensive!" "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html

On Sun, 8/17/14, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 
9/15-21
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 7:29 AM
 
 
 
 % National Plug-In Day was changed to Drive Electric Week %
 
 
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093832_national-drive-electric-week-planned-for-september-with-100-plus-events
 National 'Drive Electric Week' Planned For September, With
 100-Plus Events
 By Stephen Edelstein  Aug 13, 2014
 
 [image  
 
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2012_100403203_l.jpg
 National Plug-In Day 2012: San Francisco, with 60 Nissan
 Leafs in front of
 the Golden Gate Bridge
 
 
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2013-nissan-leafs-at-cupertino-ca-photo-by-corine-van-deventer-geljon_100442345_l.jpg
 National Plug-In Day 2013: Nissan Leafs at Cupertino, CA
 (Photo by Corine
 van Deventer-Geljon)
 ]
 
 If you're an electric car fan, mark your calendar for
 roughly a month from
 now.
 
 In 2011, several organizers looking to promote electric cars
 started
 National Plug-In Day--but apparently one day is no longer
 enough to contain
 advocates' enthusiasm for electric cars.
 
 National Drive Electric Week will take place September 15 to
 21, with 113
 events already scheduled in dozens of cities across the U.S.
 and Canada.
 
 Each event will promote plug-in cars, educating both
 potential buyers and
 the general public about zero-emission vehicles, and how
 they work in
 everyday driving.
 
 As with the National Plug-In Day events in 2011, 2012, and
 2013, National
 Drive Electric Week is a joint project of the advocacy group
 Plug-In
 America, the Sierra Club, and the Electric Auto Association.
 
 
 Previous years' events included plug-in car rallies, test
 drives,
 information sessions, and plenty more.
 
 There are already a few interesting activities planned for
 this year as
 well.
 
 In San Diego, participants will be able to test drive
 different electric
 cars, and grill owners about the ins and outs of plug-in
 ownership.
 
 On the opposite coast, electric cars will join the 2014
 Boston Cup classic
 car show on the city's famous Common. A 1913 Bailey Electric
 Roadster will
 be displayed alongside the latest plug-ins.
 
 A full list of events (searchable by ZIP code) is available
 on the National
 Drive Electric Week website. Take a look to see if there's
 something
 happening in your area.
 
 So if you want to learn more about electric cars, grab a
 notebook and make
 time to head over to the nearest event.
 
 After all, you've got an entire week.
 [© greencarreports.com]
 ...
 https://driveelectricweek.org/events.php
 National Drive Electric Week
 ...
 
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1067433_national-plug-in-day-roundup-report-of-electric-car-events
 2011
 ...
 
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079390_national-plug-in-day-draws-thousands-of-electric-car-fans-inquiries
 2012
 ...
 
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087304_national-plug-in-day-roundup-of-electric-car-activities
 2013
 
 
 
 
 For all EVLN posts use:
 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
 
 
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/08/12/japan-give-away-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles/
 Japan's Plan To Give Away h2 fcvs
 
 
http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/13/toyotas-fuel-cell-car-pay-twice-much-per-mile-prius-hatchback/
 Toyota’s fcv Co$t$ Twice as Much per Mile Than a Prius
 hev
 
 
http://theenergycollective.com/josephromm/455271/tesla-trumps-toyota-why-hydrogen-cars-can-t-compete-pure-electric-cars
 Tesla Trumps Toyota: Why Hydrogen Cars Can't Compete With
 Pure Electric Cars
 ...
 http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/13/3467289/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-car/
 Tesla Trumps Toyota Part II: The Big Problem With h2 fcvs
 
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/automobiles/an-epic-road-trip-in-an-electric-tuk-tuk.html
 An Epic Road Trip in a Solar Electric Tuk Tuk
 
 http://www.centralvalleybusinesstimes.com/stories/001/?ID=26496
 Getting an eVgo charge out of grocery shopping
 +
 EVLN: BYD T5 & T7 electric logistics trucks r:250mi
 ts:30mph
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-100-U-S-National-Drive-Electric-Week-Events-Planned-9-15-21-tp4671027.html
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

[robert winfield via EV]

as opposed to Hydrogen, which is environmental pornography.
"It only emits H2O, just ignore the witches brew at the intake. can i frack 
your water supply fields?

On Sun, 8/17/14, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events 
Planned 9/15-21
 To: "robert winfield" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 
 Cc: "brucedp5" 
 Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 1:26 PM
 
 I guess the new question
 on Telsa cost is how to take account of environmental costs
 since they are SEEKING AN EXEMPTION from ENVIRONMENTAL laws
 to build a factory.
 
 Sent
 from my iPhone
 
 > On Aug 17, 2014, at
 7:04 AM, robert winfield via EV 
 wrote:
 > 
 > here is a
 google docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of
 a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high end large vehicles
 to decide on a tesla EV that is free for downloading.
 > "It's so expensive!"
 "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
 > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
 >
 
 > On Sun, 8/17/14, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote:
 > 
 > Subject:
 [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric
 Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 7:29 AM
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > % National Plug-In
 Day was changed to Drive Electric Week %
 > 
 > http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093832_national-drive-electric-week-planned-for-september-with-100-plus-events
 > National 'Drive Electric Week'
 Planned For September, With
 > 100-Plus
 Events
 > By Stephen Edelstein  Aug 13,
 2014
 > 
 > [image  
 > http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2012_100403203_l.jpg
 > National Plug-In Day 2012: San Francisco,
 with 60 Nissan
 > Leafs in front of
 > the Golden Gate Bridge
 > 
 > http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2013-nissan-leafs-at-cupertino-ca-photo-by-corine-van-deventer-geljon_100442345_l.jpg
 > National Plug-In Day 2013: Nissan Leafs at
 Cupertino, CA
 > (Photo by Corine
 > van Deventer-Geljon)
 >
 ]
 > 
 > If you're
 an electric car fan, mark your calendar for
 > roughly a month from
 >
 now.
 > 
 > In 2011,
 several organizers looking to promote electric cars
 > started
 > National
 Plug-In Day--but apparently one day is no longer
 > enough to contain
 >
 advocates' enthusiasm for electric cars.
 > 
 > National Drive
 Electric Week will take place September 15 to
 > 21, with 113
 > events
 already scheduled in dozens of cities across the U.S.
 > and Canada.
 > 
 > Each event will promote plug-in cars,
 educating both
 > potential buyers and
 > the general public about zero-emission
 vehicles, and how
 > they work in
 > everyday driving.
 > 
 > As with the National Plug-In Day events in
 2011, 2012, and
 > 2013, National
 > Drive Electric Week is a joint project of
 the advocacy group
 > Plug-In
 > America, the Sierra Club, and the Electric
 Auto Association.
 > 
 >
 
 > Previous years' events included
 plug-in car rallies, test
 > drives,
 > information sessions, and plenty more.
 > 
 >
 There
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

[robert winfield via EV]

surrealiously? you started it. 
I posted a link to comparison higher end vehicles and Tesla for when folks ask 
questions, about why they should consider EV vs high end ICE

The link can be used with lower priced vehicles and tweaked for EV's and ICE's 
of differant costs by fiddling with vehicles

You threw down the gauntlet so try not to be coy.
Do you have something against EV's and for Hydrogen fool cells vehicles?



On Mon, 8/18/14, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events 
Planned 9/15-21
 To: "robert winfield" 
 Cc: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
 Date: Monday, August 18, 2014, 3:23 AM
 
 Huh?
 
 What do Tesla's actions have to do with any
 industry?
 
 Tesla is seeking
 a special exemption to avoid compliance. Are you suggesting
 that this is okay?
 
 Their
 factory is so clean that they need the legislature to help
 them avoid environmental regulations?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 >
 On Aug 17, 2014, at 11:36 PM, robert winfield 
 wrote:
 > 
 > as opposed
 to Hydrogen, which is environmental pornography.
 > "It only emits H2O, just ignore the
 witches brew at the intake. can i frack your water supply
 fields?
 >
 
 > On Sun, 8/17/14, Mark Abramowitz 
 wrote:
 > 
 > Subject:
 Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric
 Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 > To:
 "robert winfield" ,
 "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 > Cc: "brucedp5" 
 > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 1:26 PM
 > 
 > I guess the new
 question
 > on Telsa cost is how to take
 account of environmental costs
 > since
 they are SEEKING AN EXEMPTION from ENVIRONMENTAL laws
 > to build a factory.
 >
 
 > Sent
 > from my
 iPhone
 > 
 >> On Aug
 17, 2014, at
 > 7:04 AM, robert winfield
 via EV 
 > wrote:
 >> 
 >> here is a
 > google
 docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of
 > a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high
 end large vehicles
 > to decide on a tesla
 EV that is free for downloading.
 >>
 "It's so expensive!"
 >
 "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
 >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
 >
 
 >>> On Sun, 8/17/14, brucedp5 via EV
 
 >> wrote:
 >> 
 >> Subject:
 > [EVDL]
 EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric
 > Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 >> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 >> Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 7:29
 AM
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> % National
 Plug-In
 > Day was changed to Drive
 Electric Week %
 >> 
 >> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093832_national-drive-electric-week-planned-for-september-with-100-plus-events
 >> National 'Drive Electric
 Week'
 > Planned For September,
 With
 >> 100-Plus
 >
 Events
 >> By Stephen Edelstein  Aug
 13,
 > 2014
 >> 
 >> [image  
 >> http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2012_100403203_l.jpg
 >> National Plug-In Day 2012: San
 Francisco,
 > with 60 Nissan
 >> Leafs in front of
 >> the Golden Gate Bridge
 >> 
 >> http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2013-nissan-leafs-at-cupertino-ca-photo-by-corine-van-deventer-geljon_100442345_l.jpg
 >> National Plug-In Day 2013: Nissan
 Leafs at
 > Cupertino, CA
 >> (Photo by Corine
 >> van Deventer-Geljon)
 > ]
 >> 
 >> If you're
 > an
 electric car fan, mark your calendar for
 >> roughly a month from
 > now.
 >> 
 >> In 2011,
 > several
 organizers looking to promote electric cars
 >> started
 >>
 National
 > Plug-In Day--but apparently
 one day is no longer
 >> enough to
 contain
 > advocates' enthusiasm for
 electric cars.
 >> 
 >> National Drive
 >
 Electric Week will take place September 15 to
 >> 21, with 113
 >>
 events
 > already scheduled in dozens of
 cities across the U.S.
 >> and
 Canada.
 >> 
 >>
 Each event will promote plug-in cars,
 >
 educating both
 >> potential buyers
 and
 >> the general public about
 zero-emission
 > vehicles, and how
 >> they work in
 >>
 everyday driving.
 >> 
 >> As with the National Plug-In Day
 events in
 > 2011, 2012, and
 >> 2013, National
 >> Drive Electric Week is a joint project
 of
 > the advocacy group
 >> Plug-In
 >>
 America, the Sierra Club, and the Electric
 > Auto Association.
 > 
 >> Previous years' events included
 > plug-in car rallies, test
 >> drives,
 >>
 information sessions, and plenty more.
 >
 There
 > 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

[robert winfield via EV]

npv is Net Present value
snip===
DEFINITION
NPV is used in capital budgeting to analyze the profitability of an investment 
or project. 
Net Present Value (NPV)
where:
Ct = net cash inflow during the period
Co= initial investment
r = discount rate, and
t = number of time periods 
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/npv.asp
==snip==

its a moderately esoteric spreadsheet to a non accountant, designed to justify, 
or not, the total cost of ownership of a Tesla vs high end ICE vehicles over an 
8 year period
It does come out that the Tesla almost wins out, but only at a very slow 
increase of fuel costs.
It is based on taxes and rates somewhere in northern California.

It appears that it is probably tweakable for lower cost EV's vs similarly 
priced ICE vehicles.


On Mon, 8/18/14, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events 
Planned 9/15-21
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Monday, August 18, 2014, 10:36 AM
 
 On 08/17/2014 09:04 AM,
 robert winfield via EV wrote:
 > here is a
 google docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of
 a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high end large vehicles
 to decide on a tesla EV that is free for downloading.
 > "It's so expensive!"
 "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
 > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
 >
 Will someone offer an
 explanation/definition of the lines "Net",
 "PV" 
 and "NPV"?
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Most EV-Friendly U.S. Universities

[robert winfield via EV]

there have been comments about folks "bogarting" the ev charging spaces due to 
primo spots (EV's that is)

On Thu, 9/18/14, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Most EV-Friendly U.S. Universities
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Thursday, September 18, 2014, 5:50 AM
 
 
 
 
http://transportevolved.com/2014/09/16/got-electric-car-going-university-ev-friendly-ones-u-s/
 Got an Electric Car? Going to University? Here Are The Most
 EV-Friendly Ones
 in the U.S.
 September 16, 2014 By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield 
 
 [images  
 http://media.transportevolved.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/NERDS.png
 (NERDS) - Forget the days of driving to university in a
 beaten up station
 wagon. Electric cars are the way to travel (image: Revenge
 of the Nerds)
 
 (leaf ev) - UC Davis is the most EV-friendly University in
 the U.S.
 
 (focus ev) - Universities in California, Maryland, Michigan
 and
 Massachusetts take the tope five spots.
 ]
 
 There was a time when graduating from high school and
 starting at University
 or College meant it was time to say goodbye to your old
 friends, pile your
 stuff into the back of a beaten-up station-wagon or pickup
 truck, and head
 off on the adventure of your life.
 
 These days, if you’re lucky, there’s a possibility
 you’re heading to
 university this fall in an electric car, either because
 you’ve chosen a
 local university and plan to commute from home every day or
 because you’re
 one of those lucky few who was given a brand-new plug-in car
 as a graduation
 present.
 
 But which schools in the U.S. are most electric car
 friendly? Which colleges
 and university have the best provision for student and
 faculty electric car
 charging? And just how many electric car charging stations
 are there at
 universities across the U.S.?
 
 According to charging provider ChargePoint, the number of
 electric car
 charging stations located at U.S. universities and colleges
 has risen by an
 impressive 35 percent in the past twelve months, up to 1,134
 charging
 stations this year compared with just 838 last year. Given
 that the first
 charging station installed by ChargePoint at a place of
 learning was
 installed at the end of 2010 at the Pasadena City College,
 that’s a pretty
 impressive growth curve.
 
 Today, UC Davis, California leads the charts when it comes
 to most electric
 car charging provision, with a total of 38 electric car
 charging stations on
 campus. In second place with 36 charging stations on campus,
 is Towson
 University in Maryland.
 
 You’d be forgiven for thinking that Californian
 universities would dominate
 the top five EV-friendly institutions, but only one other
 Californian
 university — Santa Clara University — features in the
 list with 26 charging
 stations.  Instead, Western Michigan University comes
 in fourth place with
 22 charging stations, with MIT placing in fifth place with
 21 charging
 stations.
 
 Although MIT might be a foregone conclusion given its area
 of expertise,the
 University of Western Michigan also has a good reputation
 for electric
 vehicle support. As well as its well-known electrical
 engineering department
 and relative proximity to the Lansing, MI plant where the
 famed GM EV1 was
 made, fifteen of the 22 charging stations on the WMU campus
 are powered by a
 50 kilowatt photovoltaic solar panel array, meaning staff
 and students can
 get a truly zero emissions charge while they work or study.
 
 “American universities are often our hubs of innovation
 and technology” said
 Pasquale Romano, CEO of ChargePoint in an official press
 release detailing
 the top five EV-friendly learning institutions in the U.S.
 “It is no wonder
 adoption of electric vehicles and charging infrastructure
 has prospered on
 college campuses. Our data demonstrates which colleges and
 universities are
 leading the way when it comes to supporting low and zero
 emission vehicles.
 We hope this helps spur friendly competition between
 campuses to be the
 greenest institutions in the world.”
 
 Naturally, there are plenty of other universities and
 colleges around the
 U.S. with electric car charging provision, which ChargePoint
 says you can
 locate using its station locator web app. To find non
 ChargePoint charging
 stations, you can look up your local university on the
 PlugShare and
 OpenChargeMap databases.
 
 Are you heading back to University this fall with an
 electric car? Or
 perhaps someone you know is? Are you studying electric cars
 as a subject, or
 working on some other evolved transportation technology? Or
 are you perhaps
 even at one of those few, privileged schools picked by GM to
 be custodians
 of the famous EV1 electric car?
 [© transportevolved.com]
 ...
 https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=recargo+university
 university releated sites on plugshare
 ...
 https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=OpenChargeMap+university
 OpenChargeMap university search
 
 
 
 
 For EVLN posts use:
 
http:

[EVDL] Cape May NJ to Lewes Del ferry to install 2 EV charging stations

[robert winfield via EV]

http://www.delaware1059.com/story.php?id=13085

Cape May-Lewes Ferry to Install Electric Vehicle Charging Stations

By Mark Fowser

Updated Friday, November 14, 2014 - 2:53am
Photo courtesy of DRBA and UD

Drivers of electric vehicles will have a way to charge their vehicles at the 
Lewes terminal of the Cape May - Lewes Ferry.
 
The Delaware River and Bay Authority says two electric charging stations will 
be installed as part of a collaborative research agreement with the University 
of Delaware and the Delaware Department of Natural Resources.
 
They will be located in the public parking lot near the terminal building and 
will be available free of charge on a first-come, first-served basis.
 
The research team will monitor usage of the charging stations and provide 
reports to the DRBA.
 


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem

[robert winfield via EV]

On Wed, 11/19/14, paul dove via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
 To: "Ben Goren" , "tomw" , 
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" , "Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List" 
 Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2014, 11:38 AM
 
 I built mine 2 years
 ago.
 
 The only time I
 charged it anywhere besides my garage was when I towed it to
 EVCON.
 
 It's mostly a
 silly argument and most chargers around cities are never
 used.

Because for various reasons, many are ICE'd or the "blessed" chargers dont work 
or they want 50+ cents a kWh or similar.
so i charge at home
 
 
 
 
 
  From: Ben Goren via EV 
 To: tomw ;
 Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:08
 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing
 EV angst is not a real problem
  
 
 On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:27 AM,
 tomw via EV 
 wrote:
 
 > A person's
 viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk
 averse
 > s/he is, and we all tend to
 think our level of risk aversion is just about
 > right and any that is quite different is
 unreasonable.
 
 Range
 anxiety, I think, is even more governed by typical and
 expected use cases.
 
 If you
 have a five mile commute and the next city is thirty miles
 away and you can't imagine needing to go there on a
 whim, range anxiety isn't going to exist even with a
 vehicle with only 50 miles of range.
 
 If you live (as I do) in the Phoenix metro
 area, a vehicle with an 80-mile EPA range probably won't
 even be able to make it from Apache Junction (the city on
 the eastern edge of the Valley) to Buckeye (on the western
 edge) on a single charge.
 
 Risk aversion is going to be secondary to that.
 Maybe you live in the small town and you're not very
 risk averse, so a 20-mile range seems luxurious; maybe you
 live in the small town and you _are_ risk averse and that
 50-mile range is what it takes to calm your fears. But, no
 matter how risk averse you are or aren't, if you live in
 Surprise and work in downtown Phoenix and can't plug in
 (a perfect description of another friend of mine), that
 50-mile car isn't even going to get you all the way
 home. This same friend also sometimes has to go to Mesa as
 part of the job, and _that_ round trip is itself outside of
 even the Leaf's EPA range. She'd probably honestly
 need a 200-mile range just to get to the same level of lack
 of range anxiety as that person in the small town would have
 with a 20-mile range.
 
 b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, & $till being manipulated

[robert winfield via EV]

"Most of the hydrogen in the United States is produced by steam reforming of 
natural gas. For the near term, this production method will continue to 
dominate. Researchers at NREL are developing advanced processes to produce 
hydrogen economically from sustainable resources"At present, just in the US. we 
already have an electrical grid with billion of outlets that can be used to 
charge EV's. Mine is about 25ft from my PHEV.At present there are few H2 
fueling stations, less than 100 and most are many miles from vehicles.I applaud 
your wanting accuracy. 
Could you comment on the present delta energy also to fuel? from all my reading 
and study, disallowing future methods that are either unrealized ideas or still 
in the labs and non commercial.ie whats there now
From what I can tell the purveyors and cheerleaders of Hydrogen fuel cells 
basicallyhave huge sunk costs, huge investments, both intellectual and monetary 
and haveto justify those and refuse to be honest about the true costs of the 
entirefuel supply lineyou have to include the whole chain, not just the "only 
H2O exhaust."respectfullyrobert


NREL: Hydrogen and Fuel Cells Research - Hydrogen Production and Delivery

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| NREL: Hydrogen and Fuel Cells Research - Hydrogen Pr...Printable Version 
Hydrogen Production and Delivery Most of the hydrogen in the United States is 
produced by steam reforming of natural gas.  |
|  |
| View on www.nrel.gov | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

  
  From: Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 To: brucedp5 ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 5:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, & $till being 
manipulated
   
Resending, as it seems that the server ate it.

-

Hi Bruce,

I greatly appreciate the news stories you bring, and hope you continue your 
good work for a long time to come.

While I disagree with your opinion about fuel cells,  I respect your right to 
those opinions.  But, you ought to be accurate in your facts. I know that the 
press is sometimes loose with those facts, so offer a few factual corrections 
below, with the recognition that I may also make a mistake or two.

See below, and I have trimmed your comments to only items relevant to my 
responses.

(And according to the group charter, this is on-topic, though my preference is 
hearing about the great projects that people are doing with battery electrics)



On Nov 19, 2014, at 5:22 PM, brucedp5 via EV  

> Key points to note on the EV-history timeline:
> 
> -Though TMC sez 2016 is when their fcvs will be available, they have stated
> $63k is the starting price. Note that is lower than the new cost of the
> lowest priced Tesla-S trim.

The cost that they have announced is $57,500, before rebates, or $499/month for 
a lease, with some cash up front. If you're in California, as I am, the cost is 
likely less than $45,000. That includes all fuel for three years, all 
maintenance (and they will pick up your call for maintenance), and possibly 
other benefits that I've forgotten.


> And also note that automakers have been touting
> fcvs 'are just around the corner' for years, so do not be surprised if their
> actual release to the public date is pushed out yet again, like after a
> Presidential election (hint, hint, wink, wink, etc.).

Hyundai has already been making them available to the public, but Honda has 
pushed out their date due to the recall issues that you've likely heard that 
the industry is having.

> -Almost all newswires use common wording (likely provided by the automakers)
> that have  'electric vehicle' and or  ' electric car' in it. While most do
> not say their fcv is an EV, those words are thrown in so as to make their
> newswires be found on news searches (I do it for free, other people search
> for investment info, etc.).

As if they are not electric vehicles? They are.


> 
> -Some interesting playing with the wording is happening: while none of the
> fcv newswires mention the h2 comes from cheap natural gas, and no one is
> saying what is done with the gunk left over after the h2 
> extraction/reforming, they are touting some electric-only mile ranges (~30+
> miles), because the fcvs have a small li-ion pack (not unlike a
> plug-in-hybrid).

Perhaps that's because the hydrogen can come from many different places, 
including natural gas, biogas, wind and solar. To suggest that it's all coming 
from natural gas would be misleading, and is frankly irrelevant to the product 
that *they* sell.


> 
> Even some wording that the puny-pack is a range-extender: 'with a
> combination of a hydrogen fuel cell and a range-extending lithium-ion
> battery'

That's true. The batteries are bigger than that of a normal car, but smaller 
than the packs in a pure battery electric.


> 
> -The few natural-gas/cng newswires ...

Sorry, I drive a CNG vehicle, a much cleaner choice than the others that were 
available to me.


> 'coming' h2 fcvs (whi

Re: [EVDL] Charter change?

[robert winfield via EV]

Martin, a somewhat comment. When I sold my Kewet EV, 48v with 4 D8 12v Pb 
batteries, this youg 20 something lady, extremely enthusiastic inquired. I did 
her a favor by pointing her to a local commercial dealer selling Leafs and 
Volts as my Kewet would have forever soured her on EV's or PHEV's. I love my 
Volt BUT it was a mistake due to desperately wanting anything electric. I 
shoulda got a Tesla as a Leaf did not meet my needs (1,000 mile plus trips 3-6 
times a year)

  From: Martin WINLOW via EV 
 To: Peri Hartman ; EVDL Post Message  
 Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 4:01 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charter change?
   
Peri - Your argument gets my vote.  MW


On 23 Nov 2014, at 06:12, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> I think you're right, Ben, but I don't think that plug-in hybrids should be 
> part of the charter.  If someone wants to ask questions or discuss how to add 
> EV capabilities to an existing vehicle (ICE or hybrid or whatever), that's 
> fine.  But I don't want to see discussions on the merits of hybrids and how 
> to fine tune them to best performance.  I don't think that helps advance the 
> principles of EVs.
> 
> For example, it's one thing to discuss the latest advancements in battery 
> technology or the functionality of a BMS.  It's another thing to argue over 
> the best balance between ICE performance when augmented with an electric 
> motor.
> 
> My feelings orient towards the lofty vision of a pure EV world where high 
> electrical energy storage is practical and the standard vehicle is powered by 
> such storage device and an electric motor.  Hybrids and anything else that 
> relies on a supplementary fuel supply is a distraction and simply an 
> intermediate solution.
> 
> So, yes, let's encourage people to buy or build hybrids and other 
> intermediary vehicles but let's not change evdl from focusing on the more 
> distant, abstract goal.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Ben Goren via EV" 
> To: "Lee Hart" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Sent: 22-Nov-14 10:38:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charter change?
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>> 
>>> So, how about if the charter restricts it to "vehicles powered by electric 
>>> motors and a fuel source *other than* conventional gasoline, diesel, or 
>>> other fossil fuels?
>>> 
>>> In other words, itemize what "fuel sources" the list is NOT for discussing
>> 
>> Even then, I don't think there should be a "one drop" purity test. Plugin 
>> hybrids are, in many instances, almost exclusively electric vehicles in 
>> practice. I don't think the Volt or the new BMW should be verboten, 
>> especially considering that few owners of those vehicles will stop at a gas 
>> station more than a couple times a year despite driving them daily.
>> 
>> If the vehicle gets a significant portion of its motive energy from an 
>> external source of electricity, it should be fair game. How the vehicle 
>> stores that energy onboard, and whether or not the vehicle also takes on 
>> energy from non-electric sources, shouldn't matter.
>> 
>> The Honda Insight shouldn't be a suitable vehicle for discussion, but, if 
>> somebody comes here owning an Insight and wants to replace / expand the 
>> battery pack and add a cable to plug it into the wall, we should be excited 
>> to help that person do so, even if the gasoline engine stays onboard after 
>> the modifications. (And, yes, part of the advice should be to consider 
>> ditching the gasoline engine in favor of expanded electric performance, but, 
>> though that's often a good idea, it's not always the most suitable option.)
>> 
>> Of course, it's easy to imagine a big auto manufacturer creating a 
>> "compliance vehicle" that's a typical non-plugin hybrid with a tiny battery 
>> and the addition of a plug that'll give the vehicle a mile or three of 
>> electric range. I think we'd want to know about those sorts of vehicles and 
>> how to discourage their use; or, alternately, be open to helping people with 
>> modifications to such vehicles to give them meaningful all-electric ranges.
>> 
>> We all here acknowledge that BEVs aren't yet one-size-fits-all solutions, 
>> and that there are many real-world scenarios where they're not suitable. 
>> What I don't personally understand is why so many encourage the use of a 
>> separate pure-gasoline vehicle to fill those gaps and discourage the use of 
>> a plugin hybrid. Two cars are better than one...because...why...?
>> 
>> b&
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>> For

Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, & $till being manipulated

[robert winfield via EV]

@ben.
I disagree with your number of electric refueling stations.you are disregarding 
the vast majority of L1 stations. where i work has 8 L1 stations, I have an L1 
station with a 25-50ft 12 guage cord and a 20 amp outlet under the front door
> Actually, all the public hydrogen refueling stations are in three states; 
> California, Connecticut, and South Carolina.  There are 13 in the US total.
> 
> http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html

That's a very informative site.

First, eleven of those thirteen stations are in California.

Next, hydrogen is far and away the least-represented of the alternative fueling 
stations. Where, again, is this supposed "hydrogen economy"?

More importantly, and more on topic...the overwhelming majority of alternative 
fueling stations are electric. The numbers break down as follows:

Biodiesel: 297 stations
CNG: 784 stations
Electric: 8783 stations / 21,809 outlets
Ethanol: 2,453 stations
Hydrogen: 13 stations
LNG: 64 stations
LPG: 2,673 stations

The market hasn't merely spoken; it's shouting from the rooftops.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Charter change?

[robert winfield via EV]

a qualified yes. I came to EVDL wanting an EV. since the mid-late 1970's when 
there was a dealer in Roanoke, Va selling El Cars (the cube shaped carLater I 
get a non working Citi Car and a moderately working needing repairs Kewet.This 
convinced me after a LOT of money (and years), enough to buy a Nissan Leaf, I 
did not have the time expertise tools etc to do a "project" EV and got a 
Volt.SO, a long range EV 

  From: Mike Beem via EV 
 To: EVDL Administrator ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 3:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charter change?
   
I say "Enthusiastic Yes!" to the proposal. I came to the EVDL in 1999 for
help to get a driveable electric pick up on stage for a show. While doing
that (successfully thanks to EVDL folks) I decided that I wanted to build a
daily driver for my commute. I'm still driving electric conversions now,
and I still come with questions from time to time. As I said to the
reporter who did the story on my EV's in 2003, "I'm not an engineer, I'm
not even a very good mechanic, but I can do this, and the automakes say
they can't?"
The help of the engineers and experienced converters and long-time EV
pioneers are the only reason that I can do this, and I am grateful!
Michael B

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:11 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> I suppose I'm opening one of those proverbial cans of worms, but I'd like
> to
> (sort of gingerly) see if y'all think a charter change might be in order.
>
> We're still using the one we started with in 1991. We're talking 23 years!
> In that time, the EVDL has changed focus a bit.
>
> For one thing, we've become more of an EV hobbyist resource.  I think we
> need to acknowlege that.
>
> We've had some lengthy online debates and discussions about what we should
> be.  We've even taken votes on it - for example, the one to limit
> discussion
> of hydrogen and FCVs something close to 20 years ago.  I think we also
> voted
> to not discuss over-unity machines and other stuff that seems to violate
> the
> laws of physics.
>
> But we still have the same charter.
>
> So I put on my thinking cap, and came up with some ideas.
>
> As I see it, our charter shouldn't be a kitchen-sink document.  That is, it
> shouldn't try to be an exhaustive list of absolutely everything we do and
> don't want to be.  It shouldn't specify every little thing that we want to
> discuss and all those that we don't.  It should be general enough to keep
> the list open, but specific enough to keep it focused some.  (How's that
> for
> a chore?)
>
> It should be nice and short and simple and clear.
>
> Here is our current charter:
>
> =
>
> The EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion Mailing List is intended to provide a
> forum to discuss the current state of the art and future direction of
> electric vehicles. It is not intended to discuss either EV appropriateness
> or comparisons with other transportation primary drive modes such as the
> venerable internal combustion engine. Those discussions are best relegated
> to the appropriate usenet newsgroup.
>
> An electric vehicle is any vehicle which uses an electric motor as the
> primary or sole motive force. The energy storage device used to drive said
> motor can use any technology including, but not limited to, solar electric,
> electric battery, fuel cell, internal combustion engine coupled with a
> electric generator (hybrids), or any combination of these.
>
> Production electric vehicles are currently available. Internal combustion
> engine vehicles can be converted to electric power. A number of companies
> perform this conversion. A number of manufacturers provide equipment and
> components allowing you to "do it yourself."
>
> =
>
> And here is my first try at a new one.  I'm not wedded to this by any
> means,
> it's just an attempt to describe what we are at the core.
>
> =
>
> The EVDL (Electric Vehicle Email Discussion List) exists for two main
> purposes:
>
> 1, To provide a forum for discussing the current state of the art and
> future
> direction of battery electric vehicles (BEVs).
>
> 2. To support and assist those who have BEVs; or are considering buying,
> leasing, or building them.
>
> The EVDL is not intended to discuss either BEV general appropriateness, or
> comparisons with other vehicles using combustion engines.
>
> A battery electric vehicle (BEV) is any vehicle which uses an electric
> motor
> as its primary or sole motive force, and a rechargeable battery to store
> externally-supplied electrical energy.
>
> =
>
> What do y'all think?  You're welcome to reply either on list or off.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> 

Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

[robert winfield via EV]

This will probably become a non-problem. If you have a 10-20kW PV array on your 
room, and a 10-30kW battery bank in your garage with an Islanding 
inverter,(like is available today in Calif) (utility in a box) for charging 
your EV and grid feed where you additionally get reimbursed by backfeeding the 
grid for frequence and voltage stabilization, there will be millions of 
"utility nodes" remember, the Tesla gigafactory says 30% of batteries will not 
be for EV's but "stationary storage"

 Thinking on this a bit more...we're also likely to see  some interesting 
social dynamics emerge. Imagine a bunch of  people, all EV owners, visit a 
fellow EV owner. Access to
 the charger(s) would quickly wind up being similar to access  to the bathroom.
 > 
 >
 Just as we went from a time when nobody had indoor plumbing  to today when few 
houses are sold with fewer than three  toilets...we can look forward to a 
similar transition with
 EV charging stations.
 > 
 > ...and who pays for the charge? It costs a  lot more to recharge an EV after 
 > a cross-country trip to  Grandma for Thanksgiving than it does to flush the 
 > toilet.
 Will Grandma's pension be enough to pay for all the kids  coming home to visit?
 > 
 > I'm sure we'll figure it out...but it may well get interesting in the mean 
 > time
 > 
 > Cheers,
 > 
 > b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

[robert winfield via EV]

Tesla does not give it away, you pay either $2,000 (or $2,500 later) to have 
the Supercharger enabled so you are "purchasing" energy in advance, for inter 
city travel (between cities)
So, will you use 50,000+ miles of prepaid electricity?
(I have spoken with people who have trouble comprehending the differance of 
10-20 seconds at home to plugin to charge vs "Oh boy, free electricity, i'll 
drive 40-60 miles (hour), fill up for an hour or half hour at a supercharger, 
drive 40-60 miles back (another hour or so)" who dont comprehend the cost to 
fill a battery and focus on "free")

This is EV related in thats it's charging

On Tue, 11/25/14, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2014, 8:53 AM
 
 I believe that is why
 Tesla gives it away to its customers.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 > On Nov 24, 2014, at 11:45 PM, Lee Hart via
 EV 
 wrote:
 > 
 > Mark
 Abramowitz via EV wrote:
 >> And with
 parking meters charging, becoming bigger and also taking
 >> credit cards, I see a potential future
 in the merging of the two.
 > 
 > At least in the US, it is normal for
 electric utilities to have made it illegal for others to
 resell their electricity. They set themselves up with a
 legal monopoly way back in the early days when the grid was
 first being established. ("If you don't give us the
 exclusive rights to sell power, we won't your town on
 the electric grid. Sign here...")
 >
 
 > So you can't legally sell power at
 a charging station without the power company's
 blessing.
 > 
 > But you
 CAN charge for a parking place that just happens to provide
 "free" electricity!
 > -- 
 > Don't worry about people stealing your
 ideas. If your ideas are any
 > good,
 you'll have to ram them down people's throats. --
 Howard Aiken
 > --
 >
 Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
 >
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Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - (solar-thermal-NOT-2)

[robert winfield via EV]

there is 1 place at least solar thermal wins. Heating swimming pools! I 
accidentally got my 19,000+ gallon pool up to 99 degrees F last labor day using 
only rooftop solarotherwise, i agree about PV, having PV since 1999

  From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 1:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - (solar-thermal-NOT-2)
   
> My point was that if the energy source is FREE,
> people don't care how much it takes or what its efficiency is.
> They'll use whatever is cheapest; not the most efficient.

Well, we completely disagree.  We are talking about rooftop solar.  The
system to use that solar energy is NOT free.  It costs, and it costs big.
And only someone with tightly held obsolete beliefs would cling to outdated
inefficient conversion of that solar energy only to heat.  Solar Thermal is
really, really dead for the average homeowner.  You were correct 10 years
ago, but by 2006 PV broke even with solar water heating and now PV wins
hands down.  Remember, in the last decade PV solar has come down in cost
10-to-1.

How much usable energy you get out of the roof divided by how much solar
energy falls on that roof is a definition of EFFICIENCY.

> Most single-family homes probably *do* have enough roof area to provide
> all their energy needs.

Simply *not* true in most places!  You are talking about "all".  When you
consider that "all" of our energy needs includes ELECTRICITY, HEATING,
COOLING, and EV CHARGING, then there are VERY FEW average homes in America
that can meet "all" of their energy needs only on their roof.  Period.

Go start covering your availalable roof with in-efficinent  expensive
thermal system, and STOP BURNING ANY OTHER FOSSIL FUEL for HEAT or DRIVING
cars, and see how quickly you run out of space.  You'll want PV if you do
the numbers right on a year-round basis. Solar THERMAL costs more, is harder
to install, requires more maintenance and delivers less (on an annual basis)
in every way than the same area of  today's PV (and heatpump technology).

Do the math.

Bob, Wb4APR

-Original Message-
From: Lee Hart [mailto:leeah...@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 10:15 AM
To: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - (solar-thermal-NOT)

Lee Hart wrote:
>> I think the word you want is "return on investment"; not "efficiency".

Robert Bruninga wrote:
> Nope.  Most people only have so much roof available for solar energy.
> And it is not enough for our total energy needs.  So it is very
> important how much of that surface area you turn into retail value
> energy and is very much an "efficiency" determination.

You are still using "efficiency" in place of other figures of merit.
Here, you're talking about economics; not efficiency. What does it COST,
versus how much money can I GET for it. That's return on investment.

Most single-family homes probably *do* have enough roof area to provide all
their energy needs, regardless of the PV cell's efficiency.

>> Efficiency measures how much energy you get out divided by how much
>> energy YOU put in.

> Yes, how much do you get out VERSUS how much the SUN puts in.

My point was that if the energy source is FREE, people don't care how much
it takes or what its efficiency is. They'll use whatever is cheapest; not
the most efficient. They decide based on economics; not efficiency.

>  > Solar thermal makes sense if you want heat.
>  > It's really GOOD at making heat!
>
> Which I don't need 7 months of the year.

But I do! I live in Minnesota, where we spend more on heat than we do on
electricity. Do not assume that what is best for you is best for everybody.
There is a place for both PV to make electricity, and solar thermal to make
heat.

--
Ingenuity gets you through times of no money better than money will get you
through times of no ingenuity. -- Terry Pratchett
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net
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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options

[robert winfield via EV]

some Florida  seniors routinely make 1,100 miles trips up and down the east 
coast, and elsewhere

On Sun, 3/8/15, jerry freedomev via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Sunday, March 8, 2015, 11:45 AM
 
 
     EV range is interesting as so
 many new factors.  While long range is nice for those that
 actually need 100+ miles/day, most just don't need over
 120 miles I see as a sweet spot for most.    For
 many just a 60 mile range EV can work as many in Fla seniors
 only use Golfcarts and NEV's now as their only
 transport.    And for the few times more is
 needed a RE using cleaner fuels or Alum/Zinc-air primary
 batteries are already proven to give 1,000 mile range just
 EV builders refuse to put in the brackets, plug or space for
 them like a trailer hitch mount. We really
 need to get these alum/Zinc air RE available as already
 proven, just need a market to sell them.  Between EV's
 and home, building  markets if available would be a killer
 app.    As fairly light 50lb modules could be
 sold near anywhere including gas stations just exchanging
 the spent one with a reformed one.    This is
 complicated as EV batteries shrink in weight, space both
 which have been improved 30% in the last few yrs and likely
 to double range/lb of battery  in 3-5
 yrs.Next building eff EV's gliders by
 cutting weight by 50% with better aero can cut battery
 weight, cost/100 miles by 50% even with present EV lithium
 batteries.    The GM Ultralite, Toyota 1/x,
 Solectria Sunrise, Visio.M,  and other composite
 body/chassis show the way.     Sadly the i3
 weighs more than a same size steel car  from really bad
 design using an alum frame instead of just bolting
 everything to the CF body.  Since it has to pass crash
 tests the body has to be strong enough to carry the other
 loads anyway. So half the weight, drag
 EV's using half the weight EV batteries with 2x's
 the capacity  even 200 mile range would be low cost,
 practical. And in 5 yrs likely to be in
 production as by then oil will likely be $5/gal but EV's
 need cost no more than a gas car because of these but only
 20% to
 run.  
 Jerry Dycus
   
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Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences

[robert winfield via EV]

look up "Solar Taxi"
~50% of energy comes from trailer, rest from grid tied ground mount., but it 
made 50,000km

https://www.google.com/search?q=solar+taxi&biw=2316&bih=1481&tbm=isch&imgil=WXU9Cw3yxsWuSM%253A%253BnQGIS1wEzAiERM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fpuregreencars.com%25252FGreen-Culture%25252FAround-the-World-with-Solar-Taxi.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=WXU9Cw3yxsWuSM%253A%252CnQGIS1wEzAiERM%252C_&usg=__Zg66p-MXwk1bPHx1rFX3wubC-2I%3D&dpr=1&ved=0CDwQyjc&ei=ji0ZVY6QNMOeggT_poDgAw#imgrc=WXU9Cw3yxsWuSM%253A%3BnQGIS1wEzAiERM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpuregreencars.com%252Ffiles%252FSolar-taxi.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpuregreencars.com%252FGreen-Culture%252FAround-the-World-with-Solar-Taxi.html%3B540%3B319



On Sun, 3/29/15, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences
 To: "Jeff Major" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

 Date: Sunday, March 29, 2015, 11:58 PM
 
 I wonder why their
 website is so skimpy, given they seem to be legit.  Do
 they actually make the cells in the US, or just
 assemble the packs?
 
 I
 downloaded the spec sheet.
 
 http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf
 
 What I see in terms of cycle
 life is not instructive.  The product page
 says:
 "
 
    - Durability and
 low self-discharge; retains greater than 85% of initial
    capacity after more than 3,000
 cycles at 100% DOD and 30°C
    ​"
 
 They cut off charging at 4.1V and call that
 100% SOC.  They say the nominal
 voltage is
 3.6V.  This sounds like a LiFePO4 voltage.  But, it is a
 guess​
 - they don't reveal it.
 
 LFP is particularly vulnerable
 to deterioration at lower temperatures than
 other cell chemistries.  At 35°C (104°F) LFP
 starts to have accelerating
 deterioration. 
 It would be interesting to see how close to the 45°C
 line
 that they do show is to the 35°C line
 that they don't show.  The best of
 all
 information would be a family of curves that illustrates the
 region
 where deterioration accelerates.
 
 The graph on the spec sheet
 shows a 30°C curve that has only ~75% of
 capacity at 3000 cycles, not 85%.  So I am
 confused about that information.​
 ​
 ​
 
 
 I am going to digress to my pet topic here,
 cell testing:
 
 They have a
 C/2 charge and discharge rate. So the cycles are 1 hour
 start
 to finish.  They don't indicate a
 dwell time at the max SOC. So they take
 it
 up and immediately bring it back down.   Also the
 test equipment must be
 capable of sensing
 the decrease in capacity very precisely.  Not many
 people have this equipment, yet.  If
 understand why HOC is better and
 we push for
 it , then eventually it will supplant what is used now. 
 The
 video I keep linking to- Dr. Dahn
 discuss
 ​es​
 this in
 some detail.
 
 If high
 precision coulometry (HPC) is used, then you have better
 chance of
 knowing about the cells true
 durability in service.   WIth HPC y
 ou can have far few
 ​er​
 cycles and detect damage if you just hold at
 the fully charged state and
 temperature
 ​ - nothing much else matters​
 .  But
 ​,​
 if the idea is to show lots of cycles, not
 actually evaluate how NOT to
 operate the
 cells, then you run cycles like they have
 ​ (​
 and most everyone else
 in the business).​
 
 I am
 not say they are bad guys, but pointing out the problem with
 the bad
 old ways of testing cells.
 
 The problem that kills Li ion
 cells is the fully charged state
 a
 coinciding with higher temperature. The mechanism of damage
 is achieving
 a reaction activation energy
 when the cell is fully charged.  Below that
 temperature there is far less of a
 problem.   To evaluate the cell quality
 of design and manufacture you actually need to
 see at what conditions the
 cells
 deteriorate.
 
 You could take
 the same physical cells and use
 different
 electrolyte packages, test them with 1 hour cycles and see
 no
 difference, but with HPC and long dwell
 times you could
 tell which combination is
 better.  This is where the industry need to go.
 
  Mike
 
 
 On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:31
 PM, Jeff Major via EV 
 wrote:
 
 >
 Hello EVDL,
 >
 >
 EnerDel makes a great cell and battery here in the USA.  I
 have been to
 > their factory in the
 Indianapolis area many times.  I use the product just
 > about every day.  I can write more but
 want to see if this message makes to
 >
 thru to the board.
 > Regards,
 > Jeff Major
 >
 >
 >
 >      On Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:09 PM,
 HARSHA GODAVARI via EV <
 > ev@lists.evdl.org>
 wrote:
 >
 >
 >  Their contact info shows their location
 as,"Greenfield .Ind" May be
 >
 someone in the vicinity can pay them a visit.
 >
 > regards
 > hg
 >
 > - Original Message -
 >
 > From: "Michael
 Ross via EV" 
 > To: "Mike" ,
 "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <
 > ev@lists.evdl.org>
 > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:09:01
 AM
 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery
 Experiences
 >
 >
 Mike,
 >
 > Caveat
 emptor.
 >
 > A US
 company, but I can't see any informatio

Re: [EVDL] The Tesla Factor: Elon Musk Will Force Auto Industry To Roll Out Self-Driving Cars Sooner Than You Think - Forbes

[robert winfield via EV]

i commented and pointed out the i8 gets a masssive 15 miles electric

On Mon, 4/6/15, Martin WINLOW via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Tesla Factor: Elon Musk Will Force Auto Industry To
Roll Out Self-Driving Cars Sooner Than You Think - Forbes
 To: "EVDL Post Message" 
 Date: Monday, April 6, 2015, 3:47 AM
 
 Just put a stinking
 comment on the article, actually.  He may be right on the
 autonomous vehicle issue but when he comes out with nonsense
 like 'the i8 is challenging the MS as the eco car of
 choice' you have to take anything else he says with a
 truck load of salt, let alone a pinch!  MW
 
 
 On 6 Apr 2015, at 00:16,
 Ben Goren via EV 
 wrote:
 
 Food for thought:
 
 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyanwyl/2015/04/02/evidence-of-forces-behind-the-tesla-factor-at-this-weeks-new-york-auto-show/?ss=tech
 
 
 I tend to think
 he's right.
 
 I also
 think that the first long-haul trucking company to adopt
 self-driving rigs will thereby become the dominant force in
 that industry.
 
 Sure feels
 like we're at the cusp of a phase change, when all sorts
 of little things add up in a big and surprising way.
 
 b&
 
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[EVDL] virtual power plant

[robert winfield via EV]

dont forget aggregating, say, 1,000 of these 10kW Powerwalls into a 10 megawatt 
virtual power plant VPP, (or any multiplier) for microgrids of distributated 
generation

On Fri, 5/1/15, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system 
(backup foolishness)
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Friday, May 1, 2015, 9:39 PM
 
 Huh?  Plenty wrong with
 your assumptions.
 
 > $6k
 of golf cart batteries is about 60 of them; that's
 around 80 KWH of
 storage! Who on earth needs
 that much for a home.
 
 My
 solar panels produce typically 60 to 70 kWH every sunny
 day.  If I do
 not use every bit of it every
 day, then I am wasting my solar investment
 right?  Hence, I  sell it to the grid every
 day and buy it back when I
 need it at no net
 cost..
 
 If I had to store it
 in batteries (at your proposed 10% daily depth of
 discharge) then I would need 600 kWh of
 batteries or $60K investment (and
 replace it
 every 10 years).  Again, batteries MAKE NO ECONOMICAL
 SENSE
 WHATSOEVER compared to grid-tie. 
 BUT...
 
 BUT, if utilities
 began paying the homeowner the same TEN-TIMES PEAK rates
 they have to pay for power during summer peaks,
 then of course, batteries
 coiuld make some
 economical sense.  They don't have to handle the
 full
 working load of my solar array, but
 only enough to meet those
 instantaneoud peak
 value periods...
 
 Bob
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org]
 On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
 Sent: Friday,
 May 01, 2015 7:02 PM
 To: Electric Vehicle
 Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla
 plugs into new market with home battery system
 (backup foolishness)
 
 Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
 >> A quality GC2 golf cart battery
 (Trojan, US Battery, etc.) is 220-240
 >> amphours at the 20-hour rate, and
 costs $75-$150. They are good for
 >>
 5-10 years, and 600-1200 discharges to 50% or so state of
 charge.
 >
 > No, not
 BOTH.  One or the other.  5-10 years just sitting there
 doing
 > nothing but waiting for the grid
 to go out (4 hours a year around
 here)...
 
 Correct. They are "used
 up" once they have accumulated 600-1200 cycles,
 *or* are 5-10 years old.
 
 > OR they barely will last 2 years in daily
 solar-off-grid use (and
 > note,  you are
 only getting 50% of their capacity just to last that
 long)...
 
 That
 would be the case if you discharge them 50% or so every day.
 But 50%
 is an excessively deep discharge if
 you're going to use them every day.
 
 For daily use, you would limit your depth of
 discharge to just 10% or so.
 Then they would
 still last for their calendary life; 5-10 years.
 
 Note that life is a function
 of depth of discharge for *all* types of
 batteries. If you expect them to last, the
 shallower the discharge, the
 better.
 You'd also murder a lithium pack in a few years, if you
 deeply
 discharged it every day.
 
 If you really have a situation
 that requires daily deep discharges, you
 probably have to use the old Edison nickel-iron
 cells. Aside from quality
 or abuse, they are
 the only type with an indefinite cycle life.
 (There are 100-year-old Edison cells still in
 use).
 
 > Yes, may as well
 just throw $6k in the trash every few years since you
 > never use them.  The cost of the
 electricity for the 4 hours average
 >
 outage  per year is only about 80 cents. (1 kW for 4
 hours).  Amazing
 > how many people will
 spend $6k for that 80 cent problem.
 
 I see a pretty heavy thumb on the scale here,
 Bob. :-) $6k of golf cart
 batteries is about
 60 of them; that's around 80 KWH of storage! Who on
 earth needs that much for a home.
 
 You have to select the size
 and type of battery according to the
 application. Some will be best served with
 lead-acid, some nickel-iron,
 others lithium
 etc. Some applications aren't appropriate for batteries
 of
 any type.
 
 If all you have to cover is 4 hours of outage
 per year, then dumb old
 lead-acids are going
 to be the cheapest by far. Like I said, they will die
 of old age before you wear them out.
 
 --
 Don't
 worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are
 any good,
 you'll have to ram them down
 people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
 --
 Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
 www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] How is a Tesla S like a Model T?

[robert winfield via EV]

live 2.5 miles from Gude Drive service center in rockvile, maryland
probably seen a few hundred or more
gray, red , black, white, recently a silvery/gray, few 85D and P85D. also one 
wrapped in "intense" blue in Naples Florida.
They are very obvious from the headlights and tail lights
once you've seen 40-50 or more, they still look nice.
I do prefer the fatter tires though

On Wed, 6/3/15, William Dennis via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] How is a Tesla S like a Model T?
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" , "Mike Beem" 

 Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 2:56 AM
 
 I saw one brown one. 
 Looked a bit unappealing to me.
 
 Bill
 
 On Jun 2,
 2015 7:17 PM, Mike Beem via EV 
 wrote:
 >
 > I have to
 qualify this question by saying that I haven't seen that
 many;
 > however, they have all been Black
 Black Black. Which made me think today of
 > Henry Ford's response about choices
 for the Model T.  In Henry Ford´s 1923
 > autobiography Henry Ford - My life and
 work he quotes himself as saying
 >
 "Any customer can have a car painted any colour he
 wants so long as it is
 > black.".
 > What other colors have other EV watchers
 seen?
 > Michael B
 >
 -- next part --
 >
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Vs Model T

[robert winfield via EV]

"We breath the foul air"

.Yes they polluted but no one ever saw a tree hugger back then
perhaps you are incorrect. 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Inside Tesla’s Desert Battery Gigfactory

[robert winfield via EV]

nowhere in these articles did i see anything about frequency regulation and VPP 
(Virtual power plants) where massively distributed and aggregated battery banks 
reduce or r emove the need for spinning reserves. If you dont have a power 
plant on standby to immediately spin up (or down) but can take from a VPP of 
10-100 gigawatts (or more) a blip at a time instead. All the Teslas talk to the 
mothership(s) this could be as simple as just charge rate adjustments

  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 7:01 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Inside Tesla’s Desert Battery Gigfactory
   


http://ww2.kqed.org/science/2016/04/15/inside-teslas-mysterious-desert-battery-factory/
Inside Tesla’s Mysterious Desert Battery Factory
APRIL 15, 2016  Lauren Sommer

[images  
http://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2016/04/Tesla-factory-aerial-1920x1028.jpg
About 14 percent of the Gigfactory has been built so far. It’s expected to
be one of the largest buildings on the planet. (Tesla)

http://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2016/04/Outside2-1180x614.jpg
Tesla is beginning battery production while neighboring sections of the
factory are still under construction. (Lauren Sommer/KQED)

http://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2016/04/Inside1-1180x644.jpg
Production is underway for Tesla’s home battery, the Powerwall. (Lauren
Sommer/KQED)

http://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2016/04/Tesla_V06_160415-400x711.png
(map)  Tesla. Graphics by Teodros Hailye/KQED

http://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2016/04/Tesla-Aerial-Perspective-768x374.jpg
An artist rendering of the Gigafactory, covered in solar panels that will
power the facility. (Tesla)

http://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2016/04/Inside2-768x387.jpg
Tesla’s Powerwall production line. (Lauren Sommer/KQED)


audio
http://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/science/2016/04/WEBTeslaGigafactorySommer160418.mp3?_=1
]

Telsa’s Gigafactory is a lot like Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory: it’s
mysterious, it’s big and few people have been inside.

For almost two years now, the company has been building the largest battery
factory on the planet high in the Nevada desert—a factory that it says could
revolutionize the way consumers use energy at home.

It’s tucked away in a dusty valley, half an hour east of Reno. Driving up
Electric Avenue, the factory is a stark contrast on the horizon. It’s a
sleek white building with a red stripe, almost like one of the company’s
cars.

“It’s really hard to get a sense of scale,” says Tesla co-founder and Chief
Technical Officer JB Straubel. “I mean, it’s huge.”

We’re up on the roof of the Gigafactory, the small piece that has been built
already, trying to get a glimpse of that scale.

“So you can see the building footprint that would be in front of us to the
west and north,” he says, pointing to the flat expanse of land where the
rest of the factory will go—all 5.8 million square feet of it.

“I’m not a huge football fan but I think it’s on the order of around a
hundred football fields,” Straubel says.

Like Willy Wonka’s factory, there’s a lot of hype about this place, both for
the records it’s breaking and the company’s mystique. People have been
caught sneaking onto the property to see it under construction.

With its multiple floors, it’ll be one of the largest factories in the U.S.,
period. Its main rival is Boeing’s factory in Everett, Washington where 747s
are assembled.

Nevada beat out several states by luring Tesla with an incentive package
worth more than a billion dollars. Lawmakers here are watching like hawks
for the economic benefits, like making sure Nevadans make up a big part of
the factory’s construction crew and 6,000 permanent workers.

Baking Batteries
Inside the factory, that workforce is going full steam ahead. Workers are
welding steel, pouring concrete and installing highly specialized machines,
shrouded in plastic. It goes on for room after room after room.

“So this is a pretty exciting room,” Straubel says. It’s filled with huge
metal tanks, almost like an insanely-large industrial kitchen. “This is
where we will actually mix the materials, the raw materials, we mix them
into what’s called a slurry.”

The main pieces of the lithium-ion batteries, the anode and cathode, are
baked by huge machines in yet another room.

“It’s a little bit like a giant baking oven except it’s a few hundred feet
long,” he says.

As each section of the Gigafactory is completed, Tesla moves in and starts
battery production immediately. It will eventually be connected by rail to
Tesla’s car-assembly plant in Fremont, California.

Straubel says the Gigafactory will even run on renewable energy from solar
panels covering the roof, as well as off-site renewable projects and
batteries, of course.

[image]  Tesla CTO JB Straubel in front of Powerpacks, refrigerator-size
batteries for factories or electric utili

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: ?L3 quick charging or pack swaps, on long EV trips? (v)

[robert winfield via EV]

didn't Better Place try this out in Israel?

  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 7:07 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: ?L3 quick charging or pack swaps, on long EV trips? (v)
   


http://www.kpbs.org/news/2016/apr/27/protopye-electric-car-could-point-way-future/
Prototype Electric Car Could Point The Way To The Future
April 27, 2016  Erik Anderson

[video  flash


audio
https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/audio/2016/04/27/20160427-SEA-CARBAT.mp3
Aired 4/27/16 on KPBS Radio News  UC San Diego engineers plan to put an
electric car through a challenging cross-country journey. They're covering a
2,500-mile trip in less than two days, which can't be done with current
battery technology

https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/audio/2016/04/27/160427-Car_Battery-Midday.mp3
Aired 4/27/16 on KPBS Midday Edition  Guest: Erik Anderson, KPBS reporter


http://www.kpbs.org/audioclips/29177/#transcript
transcript


image
https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2016/04/21/battery_modules_t700.jpg?f40c0e74b997dbb01ce524758e0d04a31382c8af
Modular batteries in the rear of Lou Shrinkle's electric Volkswagen car,
April 11, 2016  / Matthew Bowler
]

UC San Diego engineers plan to put an electric car through a challenging
cross-country journey. They're covering a 2,500-mile trip in less than two
days, which can't be done with current battery technology.

Lou Shrinkle's Volkswagen looks like any other passenger car of its kind.
But it's different: Every time he turns on the ignition, an annoying alarm
goes off. The car warns the retired engineer that there's a problem with the
engine.

"Of course, there is," Shrinkle said, laughing as he examined his car
earlier in April. "There's a fuel system problem."

The vehicle's diagnostic system was telling him it couldn't find the proper
engine fluids, which wasn't surprising to Shrinkle — the internal combustion
engine has been removed and replaced with an electrical power plant.

That isn't unusual, but how the car stores its fuel is unique.

Shrinkle stood by the backdoor of the car and peeked inside. He leaned in
and grabbed a suitcase-sized box.

"OK, pulling the module connectors," Shrinkle said. He grabbed hold of the
heavy battery so it slides out of the car. "Now this module contains 48
lithium, iron, phosphate batteries. It weighs about 30 pounds. Again, that's
about twice as heavy as it needs to be."

The car has more than a dozen individual battery modules that work together
to feed the engine. Each can be pulled out and replaced in less than a
minute.

"Back in," Shrinkle said as he popped a clamp into place with a loud pop.
"And it's now engaged."

That modular battery system makes this car completely different from other
electric cars.

Most electric vehicles typically rely on one large battery, tucked away
under the passenger seats or in the trunk, to store the energy needed for
propulsion. That battery may need to be charged overnight, or with a fast
charger be fueled up in a couple of hours.

Demand for a new business model
It is a business model that doesn't make sense to UC San Diego Engineering
professor Raymond de Callafon, who's developing a new system that's going to
be tested on Shrinkle's car this summer.

Callafon called the reliance on refueling a single battery impractical. De
Callafon said fast charging isn't a solution because speeding up how fast a
battery can be refilled requires more energy.

De Callafon thinks swapping battery modules goes a long way toward
eliminating the refueling dilemma.

"Imagine that now you're driving your car, and let's say its 40 percent or
50 percent empty," de Callafon said. "You would have to charge it. Here you
could actually take, if you have 10 modules in your car, and take five out —
those are the ones that are empty — and put five in and you're completely
replenished."

The system could operate like it does for propane fuel tanks used to fuel
backyard grills, de Callafon said. Empty batteries could be exchanged for
fully-charged ones.

De Callafon is developing a control system that'll manage groups of
batteries. The modules can be older and newer. They can be full or partially
empty. His system will allow different batteries to work together to feed an
electric motor.

Think of it as a cruise control system for electrical power. Once standards
are adopted, batteries could take on a variety of tasks.

"To be able to have the flexibility of moving energy around — you see it now
from people who like to store their solar (energy) in a battery in their
garage. And then (they) are able to move it into their car, or move those
batteries in other utilities, a lawnmower or any equipment you have," de
Callafon said.
Modular batteries in the rear of Lou Shrinkle's electric Volkswagen car,
April 11, 2016.

The concept has a chance to change the way people use electricity, and the
system could completely upend the electric vehicle business. Car companies
currently s

Re: [EVDL] Tesla destroyed after flying more than 80ft through the air - doors still open

[robert winfield via EV]

the amazing thing is the 5 children, all teenagers, lived.

  From: Cor van de Water via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 5:32 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Tesla destroyed after flying more than 80ft through the air - 
doors still open
   
The front of the vehicle is completely gone after the high-speed crash
and it looks like the "rollover" was end-to-end (not sideways) seeing
that
the rear is also pushed in while the roof is undamaged,
but despite the extreme damage to the car, the doors still open normally
and
the occupants could exit without help - albeit with some injuries, which
in itself
is amazing if you see how the car was "reorganized"
http://electrek.co/2016/05/06/tesla-model-s-crash-large-crumple-zone-gal
lery/

Crazy to see how far into the field the car came to rest after
launching, in the last picture.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP  +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging

[robert winfield via EV]

my inverter (Omnion 2200) has 2 legs. +/- 186v DC (~370v) small wires., 
inverted to 110v AC about ~8 amps with a 20 amp circuit breaker (made back 
around 1995 - 1997 or so)

  From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 10:39 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging
   
> If you build an off-grid solar house and use it for both your house
> and charging your electric car, are there any disadvantages for using
> DC current (household appliances can all be converted to DC) and
> avoiding AC since you are off the grid?  You avoid the cost,
> maintenance, and (slight) inefficiency of inverters, but are there
> significant disadvantages to this approach?

A big question is what voltage.  Home solar typically uses high voltage
300 to 600 VDC so that currents are less and smaller copper wire can be
used (think #12 standard wire).

Remote, Off -grid DC systems typically operate no higher than 48 volts.
Right there is a 10 to 1 drop in voltage so a 100 to 1 increase in cable
losses.  Now think big battery cables everywhere and a huge investment in
copper.

Some people then drop to 12v to use many common 12 camping accessories to
live by.  That then further multiplies wire losses by another eight to one
factor, or almost 800 times more losses for the same wire.

So In most cases, it is far, far easier to accept the 5% Inverter lossess
and keep your house at the 120 VAC standard so you can use all existing
home wiring techniques and all existing home appliances and all existing
electrical things in the home than to deal with ALL specialized much more
expensive DC appliances and HUGELY expensive specialized wiring.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] ev beeper

[robert winfield via EV]

for folks who want a single tone like a tuning fork bell"Oi" - The bike bell 
that doesn't look like a bike bell

  
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   |

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||  
"Oi" - The bike bell that doesn't look like a bike bell
   |   |

  |

  |

 


  From: Chris Tromley via EV 
 To: ken ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 6:14 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] ev beeper
   
if it's a scooter it has a handlebar.  Just go to a bike store and buy an
old fashioned bicycle bell.  Self-contained right there on the bar, no
wiring, pleasant 'shing-shing' sound.  I've even considered using one for
my electric car, but it becomes more difficult to operate it remotely.

Chris

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 12:40 AM, ken via EV  wrote:

>  My Ev scooter needs some kinda of low speed sound.
> I have 2 horns buttons the second could run a Ding Dong or??
>
> Looking for something pleasant as not to scare very important bicycles or
> joggers.
>
> some kids things or squezzy horn?
>
> IDEAS???
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV's for Armagedon

[robert winfield via EV]

 may I suggest that rather than re-invent and re-engineer what is already 
available, you just get something like like a Sunny Island, Islanding inverter 
(string inverter i believe)) and have your own "microgrid" or "nanogrid" The 
inverter does the thinking, the PV panels convert the photons to electrons and 
the EV batteries store them with already tested electronics(Bob B, did you get 
those 4, 185w panels i donated working?)here is a link  SMA Sunny Island 
Inverter-Chargers - Low Wholesale SMA Prices
  
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   |

  |
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|   |  
SMA Sunny Island Inverter-Chargers - Low Wholesale SMA Prices
 Latest SMA Sunny Island off-grid-or grid-tie backup inverters. Authorized SMA 
America solar wholesale discount p...  |   |

  |

  |

 


  From: Willie2 via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 5:54 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV's for Armagedon
   
On 07/15/2016 09:32 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> Im not talking about casual or even hobby charging.  I am talking about
> DESPIRATION charging from a HV series solar DC source when there is no
> other way to get transportation.
>
>
This is a problem that has concerned me, also.  Getting your cars 
charged in a grid-down situation.  It seems the most versatile solution 
is a micro grid.  Spoofing your PV inverters to believe they see a grid 
and then somehow balancing production and demand (charging).  Sadly, I 
haven't yet come upon the solution I consider ideal.  Balancing the 
demand is facilitated with Teslas, where charging current is adjustable 
over a wide range.  Also, "grid" voltage is easily monitored.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots

[robert winfield via EV]

Bob, you may be interested in this study of batteriesThe Economics of Battery 
Energy Storage

  
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The Economics of Battery Energy Storage
 Much attention has been paid to batteries' impressive cost declines. But a new 
RMI report shifts the focus t...  |   |

  |

  |

 




  From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 12:26 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots
   
The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair good
deal  at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil fuel
industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar.

I just had an emiphany...

We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities since
they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in fat,
they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak
demand.  And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland.  All
customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY EVERYONE
$1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR DAYS.
This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days...

So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry that
solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the
profits and taking them straight to the bank.

But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities for
their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their storage
system.  So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil fuel
industry truing to burn every last drop.

HERE IS MY EPIPHANY:

In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING plants
that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK
solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from
solar still at the net rate of ten cents.  No wonder they feel threatened.
Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty fossil
fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty
peakers.  And that is exactly as it should be.  We need them and their
dirty power off the grid.  The sooner the better.

Sure we need peaking plants,  But we do not need to cry over them when
solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of their
dirty costs.  So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, it
is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other rate
payers" to divide and conquer us.

Bob Bruninga, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Insurance article from KPMG, EV and autonomous (link to PDF)

[robert winfield via EV]

https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/06/id-market-place-of-change-automobile-insurance-in-the-era-of-autonomous-vehicles.pdf
this seems to be a fairly dispassionate look at insurance on EV's and 
autonomous effect on insurance(a decline of 60% in the industry so they are 
naturally freaking out)

  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:09 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why 
Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)
   


% Normally, I seek out only the positive EV news item for posting. But
sometimes I find what seems like an anti-EV release that might shed some
light on other points concerning EVs. I ask that for those interested, bring
up the URL (below) on your own (I did not want to post all their
mis-information as that only perpetuates their incorrect statements). I did
put a few of the key points you should examine (see below).

- ? Am I right in thinking the purpose of this Eng's statements, are to
promote his company's agenda ? If so, then this is not necessarily a
Koch-Bros funded anti-EV/misinformation  smear, but one that is intent on
helping drive business to that company ... (am I right?)

- Releases like this being sent out to Insurance companies will certainly
keep them from wanting to 'take a risk' on EVs, once they have read all the
overblown hype from the writer (his writing leans heavily on an 'EV sky is
falling' attitude) %


http://www.canadianautoworld.ca/industry-news/electric-vehicles-and-the-unique-risks-insurers-need-to-consider
Electric vehicles and the unique risks insurers need to consider
October 17, 2016  Chris K. Panasiewicz

 ... Insurance companies need to consider the major risks of insuring these
lightweight, electric vehicles and ensure that premiums reflect the
potential risks associated with insuring them.

 ... [EV] risk of injury can be higher and repairs and replacement parts can
be very costly. Here are some of the lesser-known concerns associated with
owning and driving electric vehicles.

Thermal Runaway ...

Fire on Impact ...

Constantly ‘Running’ ...

Proper Maintenance of Charging Stations ...

Risk of Collision Injuries ...

Risk to Pedestrians ...

 ... electric vehicles posing twice the degree of accident and injury risk
when stopping, starting, slowing down, backing up, and entering or exiting
driveways ...

Battery Disposal Cost ...

Insurance companies need to be aware of the differences between gas-powered
and electric vehicles, and consider the different risks associated with
insuring them ...

Chris K. Panasiewicz, M.Sc., P.Eng., CFEI, is a consulting forensic engineer
who specializes in fire and explosions investigations and electrical
engineering. He is qualified as an expert witness in the Ontario Superior
Court of Justice and has investigated over 300 forensic incidents to date.
He has over 10 years of fire and explosions experience ...
[© 2016 Metroland Media Group]
...
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/chris-panasiewicz-5aa48092
Chris Panasiewicz
Forensic Engineer at Origin And Cause
http://www.origin-and-cause.com/media/Chris_Panasiewicz_new.pdf
...
http://www.origin-and-cause.com/
Origin & Cause-Fire Arson Investigator, Insurance Forensics
Origin & Cause has 25 Forensic Engineers and Fire Investigators that combine
their Fire, Forensic Training and Education to Deliver Unrivalled Response.
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cry_Wolf
When one is said to Cry wolf it is an expression that means to "raise a
false alarm", derived from the fable The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Cry Wolf may
also refer to:.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.0catch.com}

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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Insurance article from KPMG, EV and autonomous (link to PDF)

[robert winfield via EV]

ApologiesMeant to send link for 2012 KPMG report.Got hung up on insurance and 
sent 2015 reportMy bad.(Out getting breakfast)

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:   
I see nothing about EVs here. I did a search on the article for EV, battery and 
electric. What am I missing?

Sent from AltaMail




| From:  | robert winfield via EV  |
| To:  | brucedp5 , "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
, Electric Vehicle Discussion List  |
| Subject:  | Re: [EVDL] Insurance article from KPMG, EV and autonomous (link 
to PDF) |
| Date:  | 10/30/16, 5:07 AM |




https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/06/id-market-place-of-change-automobile-insurance-in-the-era-of-autonomous-vehicles.pdf
this seems to be a fairly dispassionate look at insurance on EV's and 
autonomous effect on insurance(a decline of 60% in the industry so they are 
naturally freaking out)

 From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:09 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why 
Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)
 


% Normally, I seek out only the positive EV news item for posting. But
sometimes I find what seems like an anti-EV release that might shed some
light on other points concerning EVs. I ask that for those interested, bring
up the URL (below) on your own (I did not want to post all their
mis-information as that only perpetuates their incorrect statements). I did
put a few of the key points you should examine (see below).

- ? Am I right in thinking the purpose of this Eng's statements, are to
promote his company's agenda ? If so, then this is not necessarily a
Koch-Bros funded anti-EV/misinformation  smear, but one that is intent on
helping drive business to that company ... (am I right?)

- Releases like this being sent out to Insurance companies will certainly
keep them from wanting to 'take a risk' on EVs, once they have read all the
overblown hype from the writer (his writing leans heavily on an 'EV sky is
falling' attitude) %


http://www.canadianautoworld.ca/industry-news/electric-vehicles-and-the-unique-risks-insurers-need-to-consider
Electric vehicles and the unique risks insurers need to consider
October 17, 2016  Chris K. Panasiewicz

 ... Insurance companies need to consider the major risks of insuring these
lightweight, electric vehicles and ensure that premiums reflect the
potential risks associated with insuring them.

 ... [EV] risk of injury can be higher and repairs and replacement parts can
be very costly. Here are some of the lesser-known concerns associated with
owning and driving electric vehicles.

Thermal Runaway ...

Fire on Impact ...

Constantly ‘Running’ ...

Proper Maintenance of Charging Stations ...

Risk of Collision Injuries ...

Risk to Pedestrians ...

 ... electric vehicles posing twice the degree of accident and injury risk
when stopping, starting, slowing down, backing up, and entering or exiting
driveways ...

Battery Disposal Cost ...

Insurance companies need to be aware of the differences between gas-powered
and electric vehicles, and consider the different risks associated with
insuring them ...

Chris K. Panasiewicz, M.Sc., P.Eng., CFEI, is a consulting forensic engineer
who specializes in fire and explosions investigations and electrical
engineering. He is qualified as an expert witness in the Ontario Superior
Court of Justice and has investigated over 300 forensic incidents to date.
He has over 10 years of fire and explosions experience ...
[© 2016 Metroland Media Group]
...
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/chris-panasiewicz-5aa48092
Chris Panasiewicz
Forensic Engineer at Origin And Cause
http://www.origin-and-cause.com/media/Chris_Panasiewicz_new.pdf
...
http://www.origin-and-cause.com/
Origin & Cause-Fire Arson Investigator, Insurance Forensics
Origin & Cause has 25 Forensic Engineers and Fire Investigators that combine
their Fire, Forensic Training and Education to Deliver Unrivalled Response.
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cry_Wolf
When one is said to Cry wolf it is an expression that means to "raise a
false alarm", derived from the fable The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Cry Wolf may
also refer to:.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.0catch.com}

--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Insurance-Forensic-Eng-crying-wolf-does-this-explain-why-Insurers-EV-uptake-is-slow-tp4684245.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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<

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121

[robert winfield via EV]

the link below has a hostile malware redirectDO NOT CLICK THE DAMN THING OR THE 
JSTRAUBEL DOT COM LINK INSIDE IT--->>>You will hose your computer<<<
At least, that is how Mr Straubel and a couple others have done it...
http://www.evalbum.com/223
(unfortunately the jstraubel.com domain is terminated, so the links to
  From: Cor van de Water via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 5:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121
   
Bob,
You don't understand - the pusher is a device that you build yourself
for about $500 by getting a good-running Salvage (rear end crashed for
example)
and cutting off everything behind the A-pillar, fixing the front wheel
steering into straight-ahead (lock steering) and put some cover in place
over the dash, as well as mounting a fuel tank and pump somewhere, for
example in the footwell.
Then weld on a tow hitch, wire up the remote start and accelerator
control and off you go.
At least, that is how Mr Straubel and a couple others have done it...
http://www.evalbum.com/223
(unfortunately the jstraubel.com domain is terminated, so the links to
the pusher don't work)
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1255&start=110


Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP  +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruni...@usna.edu] 
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 1:14 PM
To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Cor van de Water
Subject: RE: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121

The cost of the pusher (in the small quantities that anyone would want
to
buy them) would be more than the cost of a spare car!

And it you drag it along most places you go, you'llbe cutting your
mileage
by far more than it is worth.
Just towing a tiny 4'x4' utility trailer (solar panels)  behind my prius
drops the mileage form 50 down to 35 MPG.

A pusher is just a crutch for delaying the ievitable loss of a gas
station
on every corner.
bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 12:17 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> Regarding recharging while being towed: I have at some point (a couple
years ago) considered buying a Leaf in Los Angeles and partly driving,
partly flat-towing it back to the Bay Area. I already realized that you
don't really need to stop for charging if you use on-road regen charging
while being towed for part of the trip and driving the EV for other
parts,
starting with a fully charged vehicle and if there is an overnight stop
then that is also a natural moment to get the EV recharged without
taking
extra recharge time.
> However, I ended up with the need to transport the Leaf by myself
earlier this year, so I used a tow dolly all the way instead.

Here's a related idea that I keep thinking about: A few people have
built
"pusher" trailers. The trailer is really the front clip of a front-wheel
drive car, complete with ICE, automatic transmission, and transaxle. The
throttle and ignition switch are remoted so they can be operated from
the
driver's seat.

To take a long trip with your EV, connect the pusher trailer to a
trailer
hitch. Start the ICE, put it in Drive, and go! When the ICE is idling,
it
just creeps forward, like any car with an automatic transmission. Your
EV's brakes can easily hold it back. On the freeway where you need help,
use the ICE's throttle to push your EV and control your speed.

Obviously, you'd limit the ICE throttle to restrict how much push the
trailer can produce. 100-200 pounds thrust should be all you'd need for
a
normal EV, and that isn't enough to cause braking or handling problems
with a 3000 lbs EV. And, you certainly wouldn't use it down hills or in
slippery conditions.

-- 
The problem in this business isn't to keep people from stealing your
ideas: It's to *make* them steal your ideas! -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121

[robert winfield via EV]

i clicked on the straubel link.had to do a task manager killdid a restore web 
pages, got zapped againhave malwarebytes running, it found clean, but again 
anyway 2xim very leery and still got hit, eh.(using chrome and update it 
manually and automatic  From: Cor van de Water via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 6:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121
   
Hi Robert, thanks for catching the unsafe redirect warning.

I did not notice as I have the "NoScript" plugin on FireFox so that
Javascript is by default not running on my computer,

I have to individually approve websites that don't work without
JavaScript, or simply let them be broken if I don't fully trust them.

So, I was not getting the redirect.

Note that the jstraubel.com hosting site is a server in The Netherlands,
offering the domain for sale.

So, it may be that some websites on this domain are unsafe - not
necessarily the server message that offers the domain for sale,

but again I don't know for sure as my browser is not being redirected
anyway.

I presume that the EValbum page are OK, as well as the archive.org
capture of JB Straubel's website, I looked at a version from 10 years
ago and that showed up perfectly with the details on the gen 2 pusher.

 

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP  +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.



From: robert winfield [mailto:winfield...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 2:32 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Electric Vehicle
Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121

 

the link below has a hostile malware redirect

DO NOT CLICK THE DAMN THING OR THE JSTRAUBEL DOT COM LINK INSIDE IT

--->>>You will hose your computer<<<


At least, that is how Mr Straubel and a couple others have done it...
http://www.evalbum.com/223  
(unfortunately the jstraubel.com domain is terminated, so the links to



From: Cor van de Water via EV 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121


Bob,
You don't understand - the pusher is a device that you build yourself
for about $500 by getting a good-running Salvage (rear end crashed for
example)
and cutting off everything behind the A-pillar, fixing the front wheel
steering into straight-ahead (lock steering) and put some cover in place
over the dash, as well as mounting a fuel tank and pump somewhere, for
example in the footwell.
Then weld on a tow hitch, wire up the remote start and accelerator
control and off you go.
At least, that is how Mr Straubel and a couple others have done it...
http://www.evalbum.com/223
(unfortunately the jstraubel.com domain is terminated, so the links to
the pusher don't work)
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1255&start=110


Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP  +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info 

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-Original Message-
From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruni...@usna.edu] 
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 1:14 PM
To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Cor van de Water
Subject: RE: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121

The cost of the pusher (in the small quantities that anyone would want
to
buy them) would be more than the cost of a spare car!

And it you drag it along most places you go, you'llbe cutting your
mileage
by far more than it is worth.
Just towing a tiny 4'x4' utility trailer (solar panels)  behind my prius
drops the mileage form 50 down to 35 MPG.

A pusher is just a crutch for delaying the ievitable loss of a gas
station
on every corner.
bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 12:17 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161121

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> Regarding recharging while being towed: I have at

Re: [EVDL] What is a compliance car? : ... Bolt named top car ...

[robert winfield via EV]

? So, how do you define 'compliance car' ?

I bought a 2014 Volt because I wanted at least a partial EV, Tesla only other 
option and unsure if I would survive surgery and i regularly do 1,100 mile 
trips (where I could use a supercharger)
2014 Volt = 16kWh battery, 66% usable (~10.3kWh)3kW max charge rate
newer Volts ~18kWh battery3kW max rate charge
Volt is on ragged edge of compliance car.teeny tiny upgrade, not even faster 
charging (why bother, teeny tiny battery)   
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[robert winfield via EV]

you are forgetting to think about an important concept. Cars are parked 96% of 
the time. Autopilot is now being extensively data crowd sourced. In 10 years, 
Why buy a car? call one with your phone. they will be moving 80% of the time 
and can recharge autonomously. Parking spaces will become less valuable because 
you wont need one, because fewer will even want one, to park, What? why own a 
car? just summon oneEV's will become ubiquitous. Where in that giant parking 
lot is my vehicle? right in front of me, because I summoned it.giant parking 
lots will also go away
  From: Peri Hartman via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
Quick-Charging Matter
   
Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on 
how you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off 
street charging.  During the early adopter stage, this doesn't matter.  
For the next wave of EV owners it will.  People who can't charge at home 
will need to either charge at a destination - work, shopping - or while 
they wait at some sort of refuling station.  Charge time will matter - a 
lot.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" ; "brucedp5" 
Sent: 19-Oct-15 9:43:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
Quick-Charging Matter

>What they actually don't understand is that EV's are refuled while 
>parked
>and not-in-use in the ultimate of convenience.
>
>Whereas they are so used to gas cars that must be refuled somewhere 
>else,
>while they ARE-USING the car.  A big inconvenience.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via 
>EV
>Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:40 PM
>To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
>Quick-Charging Matter
>
>On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>>  In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car at
>>  home every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may not be
>>  quite so important.
>
>They're handwaving away the most important point.
>
>People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge. 
>People
>who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is 
>about.
>My parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap 
>220
>charger for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one 
>down
>if you offered them one for free, they have no interest in spending 
>money
>on one.
>
>I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to
>charge the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to
>charge the battery after a day's typical usage.
>
>If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at 
>about
>10 MPH from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but 
>that's
>80 miles after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or, 
>at
>least, spend that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the 
>like.
>In practice, most people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12
>hours a day at home, giving 100 - 120 miles.
>
>And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road 
>in
>a given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does it
>happen day after day?
>
>Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next
>generation of cars. Start the day with a full charge. Drive 100 miles 
>that
>single day and end the day with 100 miles. Plug in only for 8 hours, 
>start
>the next day with "only" 180 miles. You could keep that pattern up for
>over a week before you'd start to have legitimate reason for range
>anxiety. Give the car a couple days of 12-hour charges on your 
>(presumed)
>weekend when you're only putting a few dozen miles per day on the car, 
>and
>you're all caught back up again. And I think it's safe to suggest that
>what I just described is a rather extreme situation, even in America. 
>Not
>unheard of, but very unusual.
>
>Fast charging is nice to have, sure. But it becomes _less_ important 
>with
>bigger batteries, not more -- and we're emphatically headed to bigger
>batteries. But the only time you actually _need_ fast charging -- 
>assuming
>overnight access to a 110 outlet is as ubiquitous as it typically is -- 
>is
>for road trips or other scenarios where you're spending almost as much
>time in the car as you do in bed. And most people are renting cars for
>road trips these days anyway
>
>Cheers,
>
>b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVSE for U.S. Fed. employees!

[robert winfield via EV]

@NIH, a federal facility, (bethesda, maryland) we have had 8, 120v charging 
spots in 3 garages since June, 2012. 4 in building 10, 2 in multilevel parking 
near the library and 2 in multilevel parking facility elsewhere. we have at 
last unofficial count, over 70 EV's and PHEV's including a few i3 and 1 i8, 
lots of Leafs, Volts, few prius, 1-2 tesla, smart EV, honda fit, mercedes  
something. It is a pilot project FULLY funded by the credit union so ZERO 
federal money. there is swapping when full. and spaces are reserved 24 hrs/day. 
($75 federal parking ticket) some folks are working on getting L2 chargers that 
you pay to use but it's a very slow process. we would like more L1 chargers and 
have proposed a monthly/6month/year hanger tag 

  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2015 5:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVSE for U.S. Fed. employees!
   
Usually the EVSE posts I make do not get much attention, but since you posted
the topic, I can respond with some related links I found (below).

I would be interested to know how the EVSE gets implemented. Whether it is
just a simple set 5-15 outlets installed in the back of a remote Gov.
employee's parking lot, or an over blown (expensive) 6kW j1772 mistakenly
installed in primo (most-wanted/front) parking spots. 

I say over blown because I assume like most employee's, their EV will just
sit for many hours each work day, and a L1 or L2-3kW EVSE is only really
needed for an all day charging cycle.


http://insideevs.com/amendment-will-remove-ban-ev-charging-stations-federal-facilities/
Amendment Will Remove Ban on EV Charging Stations at Federal Facilities
Nov 2015

http://ecomento.com/2015/11/10/congress-wants-federal-agencies-to-install-electric-charging-stations-for-employees/
Congress wants federal agencies to install electric charging stations for
employees
November 10, 2015

http://www.govexec.com/federal-news/fedblog/2015/11/house-votes-make-it-easier-feds-drive-their-electric-cars-work/123422/
Why Federal Employees May Soon Want to Go Electric
Nov 4, 2015




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http://evdl.org/evln/


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Re: [EVDL] article: All-electric Porsche Mission E goes into production

[robert winfield via EV]

perhaps the articles could be alternately titledTesla producing Roadster in 
2008 and model S since 2012, both Porsche mission E killers
  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2015 1:49 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: All-electric Porsche Mission E goes into 
production
   

The link previously posted:

http://www.electricautosport.com/2015/12/all-electric-porsche-mission-e-goes-into-production/
 ... the Porsche Mission E has been confirmed for production and will arrive
in the showrooms around 2020 ...

 states Porsche is 3 years away from giving it to their dealers.
I already posted about this R&D EV PR back in Sept.:


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Porsche-Mission-e-concept-600hp-800V-r-500km-4real-this-time-tp4677599.html
EVLN: Porsche Mission-e concept 600hp 800V r:500km ?4real this time?
Sep 15 2015


?So why do I currently see the newswires so clogged with the Mission-e
topic?
Well IMO it's feel-good PR. VW is still reeling from all its bad PR when it
was caught being dishonest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche#Relationship_with_Volkswagen

Even GM knows there is nothing like exploiting the public's child-like/FOMO
short-term memory with lots of fluff and puff distracting PR. And the media
loved Porsche long before it even began to like Tesla.


I do not dislike Porsche nor VW. I just know from experience of searching
the news for plugins since 1990, that Porsche has a habit of announcing
something great sounding, just to see it later dashed/dropped/killed, see

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Porsche-Boxster-E-concept-ts-124mph-0-60mph-5-5s-241hp-t-398ft-lbs-tp3557413.html
Porsche Boxster E concept ts:124mph 0-60mph:5.5s 241hp t:398ft-lbs
May 28, 2011

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1099229_porsche-reportedly-bringing-electric-pajun-concept-to-frankfurt
Porsche Reportedly Bringing Electric 'Pajun' Concept To Frankfurt
Jul 21, 2015 ... In 2011, the company revealed the Boxster E Electric
Prototype, and recent patent filings indicate we could see also a fuel cell
model at some point. And now we have more information on Stuttgart's latest
all-electric effort ...

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/porsche-pajun-concept-performance-news-specs/
Porsche Pajun Concept | Performance, News, Specs ...
Jul 21, 2015 - A report coming out of France finds Porsche's on-again,
off-again sub-Panamera sedan will be presented to the public this September
at the ...


The wording 'on-again, off-again' really sums up how flaky their efforts
have been. For years Porsche makes a lot of PR noise about Electrics, but
nothing really happens.

I will wait 3.5 years to see if the Porsche Mission-e is an EV or pih, and
if it actually becomes available for the public to buy. Remember, by that
time, there will be a new U.S. administration (a new ball game). Maybe that
is what they are killing time for ...

I mean when the Chinese can hack-n-steal designs then clone a best-selling
car, and their is quick 3D printing to accelerate the R&D
prototyping/tuning, ... why does it take years for these archaic/old-school
brick-and-mortar automobile companies to produce a product? 




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge)

[robert winfield via EV]

Really? giving credence to Seeking Alpha articles?You may also want to point 
out that a Bolt, with a 60kWh battery is much smaller than a Tesla S60 (same 
size battery, with barely the same range and a Bolt with an L3 port can get 90 
miles range in 1/2 hour, while a Tesla with a supercharger can get 170 miles in 
1/2 hour. About twice the range in the same time (roughly 400v @300 amps)The 
tesla battery pack also provides torsional and such strength to the entire 
frame with the skateboard designIf an individual clyndrical cell fails in the 
tesla battery pack, it is bypassed and barely noticed. If a prismatic or a 
pouch battery fails there is a large difference.

  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 6:36 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge)
   


http://seekingalpha.com/article/3936476-tesla-gigafactory-challenge
Tesla: A Gigafactory Challenge
Feb. 26, 2016  Frank Greenhalgh

[images  
https://staticseekingalpha.a.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/2016/2/3860661_14564468182045_0.jpg
The Tesla Model S Battery Pack (uncovered)

https://staticseekingalpha3.a.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/2016/2/3860661_14564468182045_2.png
singular unit  Bolt Battery Pack
]

In 2014 Tesla announced the "Gigafactory," the answer to high battery
prices.

The Chevrolet Bolt demonstrates the advantages of prismatic cells. Fewer
cells, easier to cool and cheaper.

Tesla should consider also manufacturing prismatic cells in the Gigafactory
for the Model 3.

The Gigafactory

In their December 2014 10-Q report, (page 11) Tesla announced:

    We believe that the Tesla Gigafactory will allow us to achieve a major
reduction in the cost of our battery packs of greater than 30% on a per kWh
basis by the end of the first year of volume production of Gen III. The
total capital expenditures associated with the Tesla Gigafactory through
2020 are expected to be $4-5 billion, of which approximately 2 billion is
expected to come from Tesla.

True to form, Tesla had decided to vertically integrate further, by
manufacturing their own batteries. At that time battery pack prices were
approximately $300/kWh, so a 30% saving would reduce the costs to $210 a
kWh. The Model 3 will probably use a 50kWh battery, which in 2014 would cost
$15,000, and after the Gigafactory less than $10,500. This savings is
supposed to allow a Model 3 design to sell for $35,000, making it
competitive with the BMW 3-series.

While Tesla is building a Gigafactory to manufacture cylindrical cells by
the millions, all other EV manufacturers have decided to use prismatic
battery cells, supplied by LG or Samsung (OTC:SSNLF). The reasons were
revealed with the introduction of the Chevrolet (NYSE:GM) Bolt.

The prismatic cells offer a cheaper, lighter, solution to EV battery design
threatening the value of the Gigafatory and even the competitiveness of the
Model 3.

The Battery is KIng
The heart of any electric vehicle is its battery. It is the most expensive
(and heaviest) component of any EV, and it dictates what the range and
performance of the car will be.

Up to now no BEV, except the Tesla Models S & X, have had a range of over
200 miles. This is only possible because the battery packs on the S and X
are huge, cost around $22,000 and weigh 1,300 lbs.

The pack uses the same concept used for the Roadster in 2004. Thousands of
small cylindrical cells placed in an isolated liquid cooled (or heated)
environment.

Present Competition
The present EV competition, such as the Nissan (OTCPK:NSANY) Leaf and the
BMW i3 have ranges of less than 100 miles. Instead of using larger
batteries, many automakers add a small internal combustion engine to charge
the battery, increasing the range, but not the performance. These hybrid
cars, such as the Chevy Volt and the BMW i3REX, have received good reviews,
however they do not qualify as compliance cars, and are missing the benefits
of pure EVs performance.

The Chevrolet Bolt
The Chevy Bolt, a pure EV that GM developed in concert with LG is the first
non-Tesla EV with a claimed range of over 200 miles.

The Bolt will be priced at $38,000 ($30,500 after a $7,500 rebate).

How did Chevy/LG get the battery price down? The answer is Prismatic cells,
which are cheaper than cylindrical cell battery packs.

The first Li-ion batteries were cylindrical and used in toothbrushes and
laptops. As the demand for long battery life on cell phones and thin laptops
increased the "Prismatic" cell was developed.

Cell Types
Prismatic cells were originally designed for areas where cylindrical cells
are too wide, such as iPads, iPhones, and thin laptops. LG now has developed
Polymer Prismatic pouch cells especially for EVs. Prismatic batteries have
advantages over the cylindrical battery packs. They are lighter in weight
than the equivalent cylindrical cell battery packs. They can produce more
energy per cell; they can be cooled through a heat sink rather than liquid
cooling each cell. They also are 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Flywheels for L3 Charging EVs in 10 Minutes

[robert winfield via EV]

 regarding flywheel energy storgage4 comments1) Look up Beacon Energy stock 
symbol was BCON. ( i used to own the stock)their flywheels, cylindrical, 
vertical if i recall correctly, were base powered at 25kWh and spun up to 50kWh 
and were scalable (the 25 and 50 may be off, but)there was an explosion when 
one "wobbled" or something. (omega squared times radius for energy a bunch of 
years ago
2) when my spouse was working, 25 years ago, an ultracentrifuge was oversped 
(too fast), at about 70,000rpm in a vacuum and exploded and the titanium 
centrifuge "slamdanced" around the centrifuge room for about 20 minutes3) 
ultracentrifuge heads need to be routinely inspected for microcracks and stress 
(titanium) with high tech equipment and still get taken out of service after a 
certain time limit4) I had to take a centrifuge off line as the metal trunions 
had "flowed to oval from circular" due to overspeeding that the buckets swung 
up in and were held by
I have become leery of certain types of energy storage due to life threatening 
events
On Monday, May 21, 2018, 4:06:46 AM EDT, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3738031,00.html
Using Flywheel Batteries to Charge Electric Vehicles in Ten Minutes
14.05.18  Meir Orbach and Asaf Shalev

[image  
https://images1.calcalist.co.il/PicServer3/2018/05/14/817038/23_l.jpg
Chakratec's concept for an electric vehicle charging station
]

Chakratec Ltd., an Israel-based battery startup, raises $4.4 million as it
tackles some of the last obstacles holding back electric cars

Even as electric vehicles appear to be on the verge of going mainstream,
there are at least two major roadblocks holding back the technology. One is
the lack of charging infrastructure outside of cities, which makes
long-distance travel impossible, or at least nerve-wracking. Another
significant inconvenience is the amount of time is takes, sometimes hours,
to charge electric vehicles.

An Israel-based startup called Chakratec Ltd. is trying to solve both
problems by developing what it calls a kinetic battery device, which stores
energy using a flywheel instead of relying on chemical compounds like in
lithium-ion batteries.

In places where grid capacity is limited, flywheel batteries can be deployed
to provide the powerful surge of electricity needed to recharge a car
battery quickly. The current produced is strong enough to charge a battery
in ten minutes, according to a promotional video by the startup.

With this technology, Chakratec hopes to make electric vehicle charging
stations commerically viable in rural areas—that is, cheaper to build and
operate where upgrading the grid for fast electric vehicle charging can be
prohibitively expensive.

A $4.4-million funding round announced Sunday will help the startup test its
energy storage system as part of three pilots with European electric
utilities.

The investment round, which was led by iArgento, an Israel-based family
office, and Goldbell Corporation Pte Ltd., a Singapore-based distributor of
industrial vehicles, brings Chakratec’s total equity funding to $7.6 million
since its founding in 2013.
[© calcalistech.com]


+
https://insideevs.com/gas-stations-benefit-electric-vehicles/
Gas Stations Will Adapt To Benefit From Electric Vehicles
While some in the oil and auto industries still have their heads firmly
ensconced in the sand (or perhaps another, more malodorous metaphorical
location), others …
https://youtu.be/T6xVvpqsqYI




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


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Re: [EVDL] EV Brakes

[robert winfield via EV]

 I _used_ to love strong regeneration for braking in the PHEV Volt and 1 pedal 
driving with cruise control,Then I got the "DriveWise" plug that rats out my 
driving behavior, over the Air to my insurance company, theoretically dropping 
my insurance rates (NOT) (you went over 80, once, thats a SERIOUS ding on your 
insurance (DC to Florida to DC to Kansas City to Florida etc)
what i discovered, and never had resolved is 
"you had 238 HARD braking incidents this ONE month, so your insurance IS NOT 
GOING DOWN and you better driver better. toot sweet"
??What hard braking?? It's _high_ regenerative braking I say, insurance company 
says NO, 238 hard braking incidents just last month, our software is not 
glitchy or poorly written (but designed and coded for fossil fuel vehicles, not 
EV's or PHEV's it seems)
The device was uplugged from the ODBD , I got numerous emails "plug it back in, 
it's gone silent" from them, 
i sent "Not till you fix your glitchy software with false 238 hard braking 
alerts that falsely conflate regenerative braking in an EV with panic braking 
in a fossil fuel vehicle, Your software is poorly designed and written and 
neglects an entire genre of vehicles with regenerative braking that increase 
MPG, decrease wear and tear on brakes, etc
"I obviously didn't panic brake 238 times in 1 month, driving around a 10-20 
mile radius, while retired in SW Florida" 
"there is nothing wrong with our software that we will publicaly admit _and_ 
you had 238 hard braking events in 1 month,"
a few more rounds of emails with no resolution, other than the ODBD device was 
permanently unplugged
So, a word to the wise, bad and poorly written software can get you
On Wednesday, May 23, 2018, 12:40:35 PM EDT, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  I heard this sentence this weekend and it sums up what I ttry to tell
people in a suscinct way:

Brakes are for STOPPING, not for slowing.  If you use the brakes for
slowing you are just throwing energy away and you were going too fast in
the first place.


Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EV Brakes

[robert winfield via EV]

 Except, I rarely used the brakes at all, but instead used a combination of 
high regeneration, cruise control, feathering the accelerator as necessary, and 
almost never touched the brakes except to eliminate the "creep" when stopped. 
I have both 2.2 million miles driving experience and 53 months ownership of a 
2014 Chevy Volt.
The last 3 wrecks I was in were when i was stopped at a stop light, rear ended, 
in clear weather, by distracted driversFirst and 2nd were texting, once an 
attempted carjacking near Takoma Park Metro station and last was on a 5 mile 
straight, 4lane divided highway, clear weather, light traffic, no sun glare, 
distracted elderly driver, absolutely no reason to hit me, I was stopped for 
8-10 seconds
I DON'T tailgate, it's a recipe for death, destruction and sorrow
i became quite adept at 1,000 mile, 1 pedal driving w/cruise control,It matters 
not whether it is wasteful to use brakes or regeneration, (with brake lights)
If i tried coasting to a stop in SW Florida, there are a LOT of hostile folks 
who would (and have) "show that libtard idiot with the EV/PHEV" and i would be 
deadI have been "Coal rolled" but they failed as the PHEV with a tiny goose of 
the accelerator zoomed past and  left them in their dustI have been going down 
I-75 and been passed, at night, by vehicles going almost twice as fast, with 
the effective actual speed limit just under 80 (well over 130-140)
traffic lights are at best a suggestion. people routinely go the wrong way at 
high speeds down divided highways because it's shorter, I have been casually 
sideswiped and my rear view mirror folded outwho then ran. elderly drivers 
routinely get confused and just go, whether the light is green, yellow or red. 
A red light means 3-6 more vehicles caan go, some at very high rates of speed 
,Slaloming  around stopped vehicles
Couples get into arguments and jump out of cars at speed and die, you can 
easily get shot for looking at other motorists, who have stickers proclaiming 
"Assault Life" with crossed AR-15's
Hypermiling/coasting is an invitation to a coffin, unless there is zero other 
traffic, the last time i hypermiled was in a 1956, 2 door Plymouth station 
wagon that was designed to "coast" when you let up on the acceleraator, which 
almost caused a wreck, before we hard disengaged the lever on the transmission, 
as it was extremely unsafe in any traffic. 
I never tailgate but stay well back, the radar is set in the new vehicle for 
30-50 meters
On Thursday, May 24, 2018, 12:36:54 PM EDT, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Then again, the driver could be still hard braking.  I have heard some
people say that they frequently use the brakes to regen energy to extend
range.  Makes no sense whatsoever.

Heavy regen is not free energy, it is exactly the opposite.  Yes, it
recovers maybe 55% of keinetic energy compared to an ICE car that throws
away 100% of kinetic energy.  But still you are wasting fully HALF of the
battery energy used to get to speed.

But if the car is not coming to a stop and the driver is only applying the
brakes to slow down because she was otherwise going too fast for traffic
and conditions, then that is no free energy, it is wasted energy.

Sure it is less waste than an ICE, but it is still *very wasteful* compared
to coasting to preserve ones kinetic energy instead.

Just a possibility.

This report claims 55% recovery during regen:
http://proev.com/LLPgs/LLei0005.htm

Again, any use of regen that is not for the purpose of coming to a required
stop, is throwing away 50% of the car's kinetic energy, and is an
indication that the car is tailgating or generally speeding above the
average speed of vehicles in his lane (also wasting energy).

Bob


On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 5:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 23 May 2018 at 18:25, robert winfield via EV wrote:
>
> > So, a word to the wise, bad and poorly written software can get you
>
> I'm sure the software is badly written, but that's not the main problem.
> The whole premise is bogus.  It's the insurance company behind it that's
> "getting you."  They would still be "getting you" even if the software
> were
> bug-free.
>
> There's just way too much paternalism going down everywhere these days.
> Do
> you really want to volunteer for more?  You can sign up to have a
> permanent
> backseat driver if you want, but I sure won't.  I'm a big boy now, and I
> don't need or want daddy in the car with me every second and every mile.
>
> Not gonna dance to that tune.  Not even for a discount on my insurance.
> And
> I drive like your grandma, too.
>
> For the same reason (among others), I'll never buy a Tesla.  Remember when
> that "journalist" tried to kill the battery in an earl

Re: [EVDL] EV Brakes

[robert winfield via EV]

.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Then again, the driver could be still hard braking.  I have heard some
>> people say that they frequently use the brakes to regen energy to extend
>> range.  Makes no sense whatsoever.
>> 
>> Heavy regen is not free energy, it is exactly the opposite.  Yes, it
>> recovers maybe 55% of keinetic energy compared to an ICE car that throws
>> away 100% of kinetic energy.  But still you are wasting fully HALF of the
>> battery energy used to get to speed.
>> 
>> But if the car is not coming to a stop and the driver is only applying the
>> brakes to slow down because she was otherwise going too fast for traffic
>> and conditions, then that is no free energy, it is wasted energy.
>> 
>> Sure it is less waste than an ICE, but it is still *very wasteful* compared
>> to coasting to preserve ones kinetic energy instead.
>> 
>> Just a possibility.
>> 
>> This report claims 55% recovery during regen:
>> http://proev.com/LLPgs/LLei0005.htm
>> 
>> Again, any use of regen that is not for the purpose of coming to a required
>> stop, is throwing away 50% of the car's kinetic energy, and is an
>> indication that the car is tailgating or generally speeding above the
>> average speed of vehicles in his lane (also wasting energy).
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 5:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 23 May 2018 at 18:25, robert winfield via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>>> So, a word to the wise, bad and poorly written software can get you
>>> 
>>> I'm sure the software is badly written, but that's not the main problem.
>>> The whole premise is bogus.  It's the insurance company behind it that's
>>> "getting you."  They would still be "getting you" even if the software
>>> were
>>> bug-free.
>>> 
>>> There's just way too much paternalism going down everywhere these days.
>>> Do
>>> you really want to volunteer for more?  You can sign up to have a
>>> permanent
>>> backseat driver if you want, but I sure won't.  I'm a big boy now, and I
>>> don't need or want daddy in the car with me every second and every mile.
>>> 
>>> Not gonna dance to that tune.  Not even for a discount on my insurance.
>>> And
>>> I drive like your grandma, too.
>>> 
>>> For the same reason (among others), I'll never buy a Tesla.  Remember
>> when
>>> that "journalist" tried to kill the battery in an early Model S by
>> driving
>>> it in circles in a parking lot?  At first I was amused that the car's
>>> software ratted him out to Musk.  Then I thought a little more about it,
>>> and
>>> decided it wasn't so funny after all.  It's not just guys like that
>>> Tesla's
>>> spying on.  It's EVERY Tesla driver, all the time.
>>> 
>>> Musk is a brilliant businessman, and I'm glad he's pushed Detroit and
>>> Tokyo
>>> to get off their bums, but I'm just not interested in having him riding
>> in
>>> my back seat.
>>> 
>>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>> EVDL Administrator
>>> 
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>>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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>>> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Kandi crossover

[robert winfield via EV]

How far does it go?
| Kandi EX3 | 41.8 |


41.8 battery
n Wednesday, September 5, 2018, 10:32:45 AM EDT, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote: 
 
 


  Chinese crossover available in Texas.  Light weight and long range.  Lawrence 
Rhodeshttp://www.kandiev.com/




    
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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[robert winfield via EV]

 in 2018, so far Tesla has used 7,103,326 Kilowatt hours of batteries, 77% of 
all the batteries used in EV's (less China) of the 9,279,755 total
It doesn't matter whether you argue prismatic or pouch or 18650 or 2170. Tesla 
is outselling everyone else

On Sunday, September 9, 2018, 8:45:20 PM EDT, ROBERT via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 The problem with Tesla's batteries is not small vs large but Tesla has put all 
their eggs into one type of battery.  The other automotive companies are 
staying out of the battery business so that they can buy the best batteries 
available and not spend money on development.  Vertical business development is 
not always the best model.  At present, do what you do best and assemble a 
final product and buy from numerous suppliers is the current business model for 
the big automotive companies.



From: EV  on behalf of Jan Steinman via EV 

Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2018 10:02 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jan Steinman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

> From: Jukka J?rvinen 
>
> The main question is when will the problems be there? After 200.000 or
> 500.000 miles?... we have just now
> mastered the solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene production. I
> see now 500Wh/kg, >15 year lifetime

I see someone arguing both sides of a fallacious argument.

How can you criticize one manufacturer for unknown future problems who uses 
known technology, while lauding unknown technology for a long lifetime that 
none of it has even passed through?

We have all sorts of empirical evidence with small cells. MTBF behaviour is 
well characterized. But there is absolutely NO empirical evidence for "15 year 
lifetime" of "solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene" cells.

Personally, I prefer nickel-iron cells. But I'm an outlier. :-)

Jan


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[robert winfield via EV]

Perhaps a simple solution is to figure how to carefully control 2,000,000,000 
(2 billion) 18650's and 2170's Li batteries with excellent microcontrollers for 
temp, charge/discharge, etc. by putting them into, so far, 250,000 individual 
vehicles that _all_ are monitored in _surreal_ time by the mothership in real 
world conditions, beta testing in real world, that seems to point to small 
individual monitored cells better, prismatic and pouch cells, not so 
good.Remember betamax vs VHS?VHS won because they overwhelmed competition.Also, 
Tesla, just in 2018, used over 84% of Li batteries thru September for 100% 
EV's(100,000 model 3's so far)

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:   
Rod Hower via EV wrote:
>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have
>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...

David Roden wrote:
>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots
>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one
>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,
>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections.  
>> 
>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction
>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less
>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero
>> Roadster was one of them.  

Paul Dove wrote
> It’s called sarcasm! 

(smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't 
familiar with the actual situation.

Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is 
closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one 
transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL are 
weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to fail.

Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside. It 
may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or rolled 
into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in its own 
right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time, and are 
"identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which seals the whole 
lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at the same 
temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging regimen.

Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap 
18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the 
idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts were 
failures, because there were too many differences between cells. Lots of 
failures and fires. Alan Cocconi is the first person I heard of that succeeded 
with them in his tZero. It required carefully matched cells, and a BMS to 
individually monitor them. The tZero inspired the Tesla Roadster, and led to 
their subsequent EVs.

It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You can 
afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right. But I 
have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. They'll 
get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far smaller 
numbers of much bigger cells.

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; 
but usually win out in the end.


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[robert winfield via EV]

I would also suggest the simpler solutions are winning out.Look at PV and micro 
and nanogrids and DER's (distributed Energy) and nascent VPP'sVery robust 
failure modes.Many point source power generatorsWhy transmit electrons miles 
when 50 ft or less will do.If 1-2 18650's or 2170's fail or "get weird" no big 
deal.If 1-2 pouch or prismatic's get funky, big deal
But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. 
They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far 
smaller numb

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; 
but usually win out i

  
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Re: [EVDL] Pacifica Plugins everywhere! (EVDL)

[robert winfield via EV]

The Pacifica barely gets 33 miles on a tiny 16kW pack, even my 2017 Prius 
plugin, a forced but, gets 30 miles on 8.8kW.A compliance vehicle at best they 
cannot sell w/o discounts

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:   Might be true elsewhere too...

A colleague bought a pluging Pacifica and said the dealers are full of them.
He found 100 for sale in the greater DC metro area.

He got his $5k below MSRP plus the $9k of federal and state tax credits was
pretty amazing!

Apparently the dealers are willing to move them at a discount?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know 
what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"Maybe you missed they 
have sold _OVER_1/4 MILLION vehicles, all connected to the mothershipMaybe you 
are incorrect.Maybe ___Maybe some of us, almost every one, just wants a 
turnkey vehicle, that just works
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:   On 16 Oct 2018 at 6:35, Paul Dove via EV wrote:

> A car manufacturer doesn't make a profit till the production line is
> paid for. 

Of course, but Tesla's declared intent from the start was to make enough 
money on the luxury models (X and S) that they could afford to introduce a 
more affordable "Tesla for the rest of us."  

Apparently you disagree, but un my view, they failed.  

Maybe they didn't make enough money on the pricey Teslas.  Maybe they blew 
too much on other stuff.  Maybe they tried to introduce the 3 too soon (and 
that could be because GM scooped them with the Bolt).  I don't know the 
reason, just that the "affordable" Tesla isn't, at least not now.

I find it interesting to compare Tesla's approach to Honda's -- granted that 
the latter is a much larger company.  When they launched the Accord in 1976, 
Honda priced it aggressively, to build demand.  They probably took a loss.  
The price rose in later years as it gained sales.

Similarly, Toyota took a loss on the early Prius.  I think that was also the 
case with the Nissan Leaf.  That's just what automakers have to do when they 
want a new and different vehicle to succeed. That and lots of advertising.

I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure 
they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in 
the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their 
reputation.  Time will tell.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

 On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
 If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has Tesla 
been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the game plan, 
it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by Bob Beaumont, 
not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start with high end roadstersthen 
follow with high end Model S that competes with high end luxury vehiclesthen 
follow with the high end Model X that competes with high end SUV'sthen follow 
with high end and mid Model 3, financed by the monies from the Roadsters, Model 
S and Model X
You are complaining the Tesla model 3 is not cheap enough for you, be 
patientThe Model 3 started selling in July, 2017, 15 months ago. a total of 
-->30<--, and 1,172 for all of 2017The model 3 has now sold over 78,000 as of 
end of September, just in 2018, large battery packs all, for people who have 
the moneythose people are financing _your_ model 3 if you get one., or notThere 
will become used ones eventually for you and I in a few years.I myself cannot 
afford a new one yet,either, fixed retiree income and all.
Tesla is enabling you to get less expensive, much lighter batteries and battery 
packs for your EV'sthey have used over 2,000,000,000 (2 Billion) 18650's and 
2170's
in 2018 they used 86% of all Li batteries for EV's so far9,600,000 of the 
11,000,000 kilowatt hours in pure EV's (excluding China)
the vehicles will go 200- 300 miles.
I fail to understand your dislike of Tesla as they are making EV's mainstream 
faster by 10 -20 years then otherwise would be
The Model 3 is only 15 months old in terms of being sold. Cheaper ones take 
longer as the expensive ones subsidize the cheaper ones

 On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know
> what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"

No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused 
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of 
the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.  
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me) 
could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.  

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for 
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector  
is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the 
States  

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to 
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you 
really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their 
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands 
you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed 
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford 
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the 
cheaper one.  

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used 
Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for 
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though, 
nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great 
car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.  

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised 
an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less 
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.  
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use 
Superchargers for free.  

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday 
they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

 On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
 If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has Tesla 
been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the game plan, 
it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by Bob Beaumont, 
not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start with high end roadstersthen 
follow with high end Model S that competes with high end luxury vehiclesthen 
follow with the high end Model X that competes with high end SUV'sthen follow 
with high end and mid Model 3, financed by the monies from the Roadsters, Model 
S and Model X
You are complaining the Tesla model 3 is not cheap enough for you, be 
patientThe Model 3 started selling in July, 2017, 15 months ago. a total of 
-->30<--, and 1,172 for all of 2017The model 3 has now sold over 78,000 as of 
end of September, just in 2018, large battery packs all, for people who have 
the moneythose people are financing _your_ model 3 if you get one., or notThere 
will become used ones eventually for you and I in a few years.I myself cannot 
afford a new one yet,either, fixed retiree income and all.
Tesla is enabling you to get less expensive, much lighter batteries and battery 
packs for your EV'sthey have used over 2,000,000,000 (2 Billion) 18650's and 
2170's
in 2018 they used 86% of all Li batteries for EV's so far9,600,000 of the 
11,000,000 kilowatt hours in pure EV's (excluding China)
the vehicles will go 200- 300 miles.
I fail to understand your dislike of Tesla as they are making EV's mainstream 
faster by 10 -20 years then otherwise would be
The Model 3 is only 15 months old in terms of being sold. Cheaper ones take 
longer as the expensive ones subsidize the cheaper ones

 On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know
> what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"

No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused 
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of 
the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.  
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me) 
could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.  

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for 
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector  
is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the 
States  

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to 
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you 
really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their 
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands 
you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed 
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford 
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the 
cheaper one.  

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used 
Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for 
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though, 
nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great 
car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.  

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised 
an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less 
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.  
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use 
Superchargers for free.  

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday 
they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

 On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
 If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has Tesla 
been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the game plan, 
it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by Bob Beaumont, 
not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start with high end roadstersthen 
follow with high end Model S that competes with high end luxury vehiclesthen 
follow with the high end Model X that competes with high end SUV'sthen follow 
with high end and mid Model 3, financed by the monies from the Roadsters, Model 
S and Model X
You are complaining the Tesla model 3 is not cheap enough for you, be 
patientThe Model 3 started selling in July, 2017, 15 months ago. a total of 
-->30<--, and 1,172 for all of 2017The model 3 has now sold over 78,000 as of 
end of September, just in 2018, large battery packs all, for people who have 
the moneythose people are financing _your_ model 3 if you get one., or notThere 
will become used ones eventually for you and I in a few years.I myself cannot 
afford a new one yet,either, fixed retiree income and all.
Tesla is enabling you to get less expensive, much lighter batteries and battery 
packs for your EV'sthey have used over 2,000,000,000 (2 Billion) 18650's and 
2170's
in 2018 they used 86% of all Li batteries for EV's so far9,600,000 of the 
11,000,000 kilowatt hours in pure EV's (excluding China)
the vehicles will go 200- 300 miles.
I fail to understand your dislike of Tesla as they are making EV's mainstream 
faster by 10 -20 years then otherwise would be
The Model 3 is only 15 months old in terms of being sold. Cheaper ones take 
longer as the expensive ones subsidize the cheaper ones

 On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know
> what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"

No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused 
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of 
the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.  
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me) 
could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.  

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for 
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector  
is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the 
States  

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to 
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you 
really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their 
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands 
you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed 
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford 
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the 
cheaper one.  

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used 
Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for 
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though, 
nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great 
car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.  

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised 
an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less 
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.  
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use 
Superchargers for free.  

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday 
they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

 met Bob Beaumont at CitiCar meetup in Maryland. owned a "Blue Cheese Wedge" 
also, and a Kewetmet Bob Rice at a "Power of DC" in Frederick, Maryland.nice 
guy also.yes, in a few years Tesla will be 10 years old and used S.X and 3"s 
will be available for all, or new turnkey cheap ones when the 
"AutoFac's/Gigafactories" really start churning out
On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 6:24:11 PM EDT, Willie via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

On 10/16/2018 04:48 PM, robert winfield via EV wrote:
>  On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
> wrote:
>  If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has 
>Tesla been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the 
>game plan, it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by 
>Bob Beaumont, not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start 

I HONOR Bob Beaumont!  And Bob Rice.  And so many others that have done 
their bit to promote EVs.  Though I knew neither Bob, I firmly believe 
both would be thrilled at Tesla accomplishments if they were here to 
see.  I doubt they would nitpick minor schedule delays.  The prior 
accomplishments seem minor and meager compared to the great Tesla leap 
forward, but they set the stage and whetted appetites for today's 
mainstream EVs.

Due almost exclusively to Tesla, EVs have "made it".  There is almost no 
possibility of EVs sinking back into oblivion as has happened more than 
once in the past.  Abandon your grousing and CELEBRATE!  Already, used 
Tesla Ss have dropped in value from $80k-$120k to ~$30k.  In a few 
years, you will be able to buy used Model 3s for $10k.  Or less.  Large 
numbers of salvage Tesla batteries will be available at very low prices 
to experimenters.  And, they will be FAR better than today's Leaf 
salvage batteries.

Not addressed to you, Robert.
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?

[robert winfield via EV]

 seriously?sell to Saudi'snope wrong wrong wrong you aredidnt happen
On Thursday, October 18, 2018, 3:03:45 PM EDT, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 
Musk was just last month trying to sell it to the Saudi's..in a deal that 
allegedly fell through
.Now with them killing a Washington Post Journalist and Saudi Arabian princes 
looking more like the mafia than anelectric car savior
I think Tesla and Elon Musk might have nearly destroyed the Tesla brand had 
they been successful,
Something they should be thanking their lucky stars over



      From: Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Mark Abramowitz 
 Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:27 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free 
Supercharging!]
  
Ok, thanks.

I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken!

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 10:15 AM, John Blair via EV  wrote:
> 
> You can check the prices on the Tesla website.  It is different in different 
> states.  Tesla prefers to charge by kWh, but some states don’t allow that so 
> they charge by the minute in two tiers depending on where you are in the 
> charge cycle (above 60kW rate or below).  In California it is 26¢/kWhr. My 
> last trip from Northern California to Southern California in my Model 3 was 
> just under $20 (and I left home 90% full) and about the same on the way home. 
>  Each stop was 15-20 minutes and I was busy the entire time taking my dog for 
> a quick potty break, giving her water, and having a snack.  I actually ended 
> up charging more than I needed to each time. If the car charged in 5 minutes, 
> it would not have been any faster for me.  
> 
> John
> ---
> John G. Blair
> Occidental, California
> 707-874-2399
> http://www.blairstudio.com - Impressionistic Art
> i...@jgblairphoto.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 3:17 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve been told $20.
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 2:07 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My understanding is that the cost to use the supercharger network à la 
>>> carte is relatively reasonable (price wise) when compared to buying 
>>> gasoline for a trip of a similar distance. Perhaps somebody with a Tesla 
>>> that doesn't come with free supercharging can report on the prices?
> 
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> 
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?

[robert winfield via EV]

 Nope, the original email implied that there was a mutual agreement to join up 
with Saudi's, which is patently false and has no proofThe stock price surged 
that day due to the Saudi's and was an unwelcome addition to the failed taking 
privatebut absolutely, categorically it is completely false to even imply that 
Musk and the Saudi's were joining forces in any way except as antagonistsPlease 
refrain from implying anything other than that,ok.If falsehoods get spread they 
get pounced upon without mercy, especially on an EV list, where folks are 
supposed to be both informed and have lots of knowledge. 
On Thursday, October 18, 2018, 5:29:57 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 18 Oct 2018 at 19:13, robert winfield via EV wrote:

>  seriously?sell to Saudi'snope wrong wrong wrong you aredidnt happen

Not entirely right, but not entirely wrong either.

The Saudi wealth fund bought Tesla stock. Now it's investing in Lucid, a 
Tesla competitor

Sep 18, 2018

"Earlier this year, the Saudi fund bought Tesla shares on the open market 
totaling between 3% and 5% of the company, the Financial Times has reported. 
In August, when Elon Musk flirted briefly with the idea of taking Tesla 
private, he identified the Saudi fund, along with Volkswagen, as funding 
sources."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-lucid-saudi-investment-20180918-
story.html

https://v.gd/u23NAX

Also:

Saudi Fund in Talks to Invest in Tesla Buyout Deal

August 12, 2018

"The Saudi Kingdom´s Public Investment Fund is working to be part of any 
investor pool that emerges to take Tesla private, people with knowledge of 
the fund´s plans told Bloomberg News on Sunday. The fund, which recently 
built a stake just shy of 5 percent, is exploring how it can be involved, 
the people said on condition of anonymity."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-12/saudi-fund-is-said-to-be-
in-talks-to-invest-in-tesla-buyout-deal

https://v.gd/27afU0

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

[robert winfield via EV]

 about 1956, PV was around $600/watt (when I became aware of them)~41 years ago 
PV was around $101/watt (around 1975)at present PV is around $0.25 - $.030/watt 
roughly
30 km out of 250km is 12% _free_ miles as PV prices decrease.
don't complain about _early_ adopters, especially in a list of _early_ 
adopters(inexpensive Li battery packs)(small round cylindrical 18650's and 
2170's)
On Sunday, October 21, 2018, 2:52:46 AM EDT, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars
October 15, 2018  Michael J. Coren

[image  
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.png
The Sono Motors Car
]

The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost everything
on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels (once decomposed
living matter) all derive in some way from the star we call the Sun.

So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?

It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface relative
to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes that cover
thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans, even ultra-light
aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they have in common? They’re
all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar panels
generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.

For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy equation
is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar panels on their
vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German startup Sono Motors is
adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof, sides, and rear to give its
vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile,
Dutch startup behind LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge
itself.” Although it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can
put down deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000
to 20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.

The Sono Motors Car

Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and director of its
Vehicle Electrification Group.

Quartz asked Michalek to estimate how far the best solar panels could propel
a typical electric car on the market. He broke down the math for us.

Michalek says about 1 kilowatt (kW) of solar energy falls on a square meter
of the Earth’s surface on a clear day. That’s all the solar energy available
to collect. For a company like Sono, which says it can convert about a
quarter of that energy into electricity (although that’s very optimistic), a
full site of panels might generate roughly 8 kilowatt hours of energy per
day (a best-case scenario with four square meters of solar panels).

Michalek says that’s enough to drive a car like the comparable Nissan Leaf
about 25 miles. But there are many reasons (clouds, poor panel positioning,
dirt), this number will rarely be reached. As for LightyearOne and its
claims that you’ll never need to charge your car in the future? The odds are
tough. The maximum conversion rate for cheap silicon cells to turn sunlight
into electricity is just under 33%, and more exotic materials that achieve
44% efficiency are far too expensive for mass production. Without a
revolutionary breakthough in solar panel technology, cars that can recharge
themselves with the sun alone remain fantastical.

Does that mean putting solar panels on cars is always a bad idea? Maybe not.
A sunny day can tack on enough miles to cover the average US commute. But
Michalek says that’s an expensive way to extend the car’s range. Anyone with
a charging outlet can get renewable energy from the wall for a lot less.
Sign up for the Quartz Daily Brief email
Stay updated about Quartz products and events.
[© qz.com]


+
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/driverless-car-hype-gives-way-e-scooter-mania-among-technorati-n919706
Driverless car hype gives way to e-scooter mania among technorati
Oct. 13, 2018  Driverless car hype gives way to e-scooter mania among
technorati ... In a matter of months, electric scooter startups have gone
from tech oddity to global ... Millions of dollars in funding and billions
of dollars in valuations have made scooters the next big thing since the
last big thing ...
https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_28/2491731/180709-bird-scooter-san-francisco-njs-1541_0d7cd3431408077aac647d098c7ba8a7.fit-1240w.jpg




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{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-3 drive unit gear pictures after testing

[robert winfield via EV]

 when did Tesla haters take over the EVDL?

On Monday, October 22, 2018, 10:18:27 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 22 Oct 2018 at 19:36, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> Tesla says that the Model 3 drive system is designed and validated for over
> one million miles of range.

Hey, Fred Lambert, that word that you used, "range" -- at least in an EV, it 
doesn't mean what you think it means.  :-\

I take it this was a lab simulation, not a real world road test?

If what I read is right, and indeed I might be misunderstanding, the big-
battery 3 has a claimed range of 310 miles. If you charge it to 80% at a 
supercharger, that takes 40 minutes, and then you get about 250 miles before 
you have to stop again to charge.  (If you'd told me 30 years agao that I'd 
be writing something like that about an EV, I never would have believed 
you.)

Anyway, at 60mph (neglecting acceleration time), you can drive 4h 10m, then 
you charge for 40 min again.  Thus you can make 250 miles per 4h 50m, or 
about 1250mi per day.  (Something else I never expected to write.)

You'd need 800 days (2 years 2 months 9 days) to cover a million miles.  And 
that's assuming that you have at least 2 and maybe 3 drivers taking turns at 
the wheel, and sleeping in the car.  Or maybe they could use a chase vehicle 
with more comfortable sleeping quarters.

I guess it's possible that this was a genuine road test, but does the 2 year 
plus time line make sense?.

If it's true, it's certainly good to hear that the transaxle should last 
that long.  Now what about all the other parts in the car?  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Easy to hard solar charging.

[robert winfield via EV]

 Does no one remember Louis Palmer and the Solar Taxi that drove around the 
world about 10 years ago (vIsited maryland)he towed about 6 solar panels with 
batterySolartaxi


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Solartaxi

Solartaxi

Solartaxi / Tour around the world with an electric car.
 |

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On Tuesday, October 30, 2018, 8:31:51 AM EDT, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Towing a simple 4'x4' garden trailer behind my priius drops MPG from 55 to
40.  A huge drop.
And solar might do well in summer, but with only 27 degree sun angles at
noon in the winter. your power is only 45%

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 5:08 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> As many of you know I am a fan of solar vehicles..My current project is a
> Steintrike Explorer as the donor vehicle.  4,000 watt Cyclone drivetrain.
> At least 400 watts of panels. 4 kw(8 Leaf modules) I think the easiest way
> would to directly size the panel voltage to the charging rate of the
> battery. I have little experience with lithium. Is bms tied to a charger?
> Is it passive? Active? Does it also work during discharge? I am thinking I
> could charge my battery in 10 hours or less depending on state of charge
> and have a cruising speed of maybe 25 mph under good conditions barely
> using the battery.  The battery would be a buffer for the panels. Some sort
> of system would be needed to prevent overcharging.  Ideas?.. Lawrence
> Rhodes wondering if I could tow a large solar panel as a range extender.
> Seen it done with small vehicles. However one to power a Leaf might be a
> disaster in crosswinds.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (DONE)

[robert winfield via EV]

 Bob,If it really gets to you, your neighbors vehicle idling, i'm not 
suggesting htis as it would be wrong and dont do it,butAuto Exhaust Whistle - 
Jokes, Gags, Pranks - In the Tailpipe Gag! - Auto Whistle | eBay


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Auto Exhaust Whistle - Jokes, Gags, Pranks - In the Tailpipe Gag! - Auto...

Find great deals for Auto Exhaust Whistle - Jokes, Gags, Pranks - In the 
Tailpipe Gag! - Auto Whistle. Shop with...
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On Wednesday, October 31, 2018, 11:06:27 AM EDT, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 It inevitable.  Solar panels on anything that sits in the sun is cost
effective if the power can be used.

Kia adding it to cars:  https://pulsenews.co.kr/view.php?year=2018&no=680816

Even if it only charges the 12v battery, it is still 200 Watts incoming.
Even though the 12v battery is always maintained from the HV battery, they
can manage the 12v battery charging just like they do with hybrids.  That
is, only charge from the HV battery to always leave enough room at the top
for a full days free charge from the sun.

And don’t forget my stupid neighbor's son who spends about 3 to 10 hours a
day sitting in his ICE car with the engine running in the driveway so he can
sit there with his friends playing with their smartphones "charging" from
the car.

And these will always be 18% efficieny silicon.  The higher 36% GaAs cells
cost 2000 times more for only double the power and will never come down.

Bob. WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[robert winfield via EV]

 Mark_your_ statement puzzles me about HydrogenAt least the continental US has 
an electrical grid, part of which my uncles helped build in the 1920'sThere are 
literally Billions of electrical outlets if not trillions, all supplying 
electricity.Why on earth should be build another grid to supply Hydrogen when 
we ALREADY have a grid?
I fail to understand why you want to, at enormous, useless expense, duplicate 
an existing infrastructure.
Money and thought have already spoken, decisions have been made over the last 
100+ yearshydrogen is the loser and electricity the winner.
On Saturday, December 15, 2018, 3:45:06 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 “I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us forEVs and PV system size

[robert winfield via EV]

 Consider, I just put in a 11.655kW system that covers ~59.9sq meters. I could 
have easily doubled that sizeIt will generate ~50kWh/day (~18,000kWh/year 
[using PVWatts v5 and System Advisory Monitor)That convenience store could have 
a double/triple or larger PV array, some battery banks, say 28kWh or so and 
generate a bit of business from both charging vehicles and as a node in a VPP 
to be used for FCAS ancillary services (Frequency control n such.I see a nice 
business model for extra cash as the DER grows (distributed energy resources)
On Friday, December 14, 2018, 11:59:17 AM EST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Even for gas cars, that's an extreme range. Most, I think, have a range 
from 300-400 miles. Apparently people are content with that.

I'm sure that some EVs will have the option for enormous range, such as 
600 miles per charge. But will people buy them? My guess is most people 
would rather pay less for the car and settle for, say, 300 mile range. 
As many have stated here, that's adequate for just about anything 
imaginable in a day. And for the one or two times a year you need to go 
more than 300 miles in a day, well, you stop and charge once or twice. 
Even outside this list, I think people will realize that.

So, I don't think we'll have a crisis of needing to support a high usage 
of 150kWh in one hour. We will, however need to support a large number 
of sessions at 50-75kWh in one hour or less. Even that could put a load 
on some distribution systems, though I don't think it's that bad.

Consider, out in the "middle of nowhere". A convenience store uses about 
50kW on average and there are likely several businesses each consuming 
something in that range. And there might be 4 or 5 charge points. 
Overall, the load on the distribution system might double or triple. And 
if we're talking about adding EV service to a small town, the 
distribution system will probably already handle the load.

But, yes, I agree with Peter that utilities will need to plan for better 
distribution.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Peter Eckhoff via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peter Eckhoff" 
Sent: 14-Dec-18 8:35:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us 
forEVs

>If current batteries have around 215 whr/kg and Amprius's new battery 
>which
>maybe rated as much as 435 whr/kg (if in the same volume), a Model 3 
>with a
>300 mile range could conceivably have a 600 mile range and a Bolt could
>have a 480 mile range.  At 60 miles per hour, the max range occurs at 
>about
>10 hours and 8 hours of driving, respectively.  Basically, a full day 
>of
>driving with no pit stops for a meal and/or personal weight adjustment.
>
>But if you want to press on for another 10 or 8 hours, I've timed a 
>family
>pit stop at about 30 minutes and add to that the time it would take to 
>do
>an ICE refuel at a semi-busy set of interstate pumps, you have a 
>minimum of
>40 minutes that could be used to recharge an EV.  Let's make it an 
>hour.
>
>For an hour full recharge, a Model 3 and Bolt would need 150 and 120
>kwhrs.  At 480 volts, that's 312 amp-hours; a bit much.  But spread 
>that
>over a good night's sleep, shower, breakfast, repacking, checkout, etc. 
>for
>a total of 14 hours, that's 22 amp-hours  which is not unreasonable or 
>10
>hours at 32 amps.
>
>A trip from Omaha to Rapid City, SD is 524 miles and taking a side trip 
>to
>Fossil Bed State Park is completely doable with no range anxiety; maybe 
>a
>slight top off for a Bolt at Wall or one of the other small towns along 
>the
>way.
>
>The biggest hurdle will be the generation, storage, and distribution of 
>the
>energy to recharging points.
>
>Has anyone read what the utilities are planning on doing?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 9:08 AM Collin Kidder via EV 
>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 7:43 PM Lee Hart via EV  
>>wrote:
>> >
>> > If fast charging is so vital, how come the market isn't flooded with
>> > fast chargers for cellphones, laptops, power tools, and all our 
>>other
>> > battery-operated toys?
>>
>>?!?!?!?! Umm IT IS. The market most certainly is packed full with
>>fast chargers for cellphones. They all advertise how their new 9v wall
>>wart and cable will charge your phone up like 80% in 45 minutes or
>>some such thing. Companies like Samsung have specifically built fast
>>charging into their premium phones. Likewise on power tools. As you
>>might expect, people doing construction burn through batteries on
>>portable tools. So, those chargers tend to be quite fast also - they
>>even have thermal management but only in the form of "we won't charge
>>this battery until it's not hot anymore." Laptops don't tend to have
>>super fast chargers because you can usually use them plugged in anyway
>>so the battery ends up being more like a built-in UPS.
>>
>>So, yeah, fast charging most certainly exists where there is a use
>>case for it. I can see the draw of fast 

Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

[robert winfield via EV]

 I'm unsure whom directed this response, but since it quotes my post i will 
respondMark,I have been reading this list for a lot of years and developed the 
distinct impression that you have a hydrogen vehicle bias over EV'sif that is 
wrong, i apologize for misreading your many comments over the many years.
I posted virtually the same response at least once, vis a vis an _already_ 
extant electrical grid with billions if not trillions of outlest versus the 
hurclean task of building a duplicate fueling structure for hydrogen for what 
seems to me the sole purpose of keeping the fossil fuel industry from dying 
rapidly instead of it's present slower inevitable death
I seem to recall back then you may have had a differnant email or signature 
file, something to do with hydrogen.if i recall that incorrectly, again 
apologies, but only minimal
If you do simple physics, its somewhere around 4 electrons to get 1 H but I 
don't have the equations handy (IE a 75% loss just starting, and it goes to 90% 
or greater by the end of the process, worse than gasoline as oil is somewhat 
"pre processed" but messy, but does continue the fossil fuel agenda
I seriously regret getting a plug in hybrid gas-electric myself, but a car 
wreck forced my hand, along with some brain damage from the wreck and lack of 
funds and income
If you still support the Hydrogen economy, what's _your_ excuse?
It's tough to have an opposing opinion from the people that sign your paychecks 
at times
however, this is a forum supposedly for electric vehicle discussion, EV 
hobbiests, and such and not the Hydrogen fool cell folks, so can folks go back 
to that.



On Sunday, December 16, 2018, 12:47:27 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz 
 wrote:  
 
 I think that you are ascribing to me statements I never made in my post.
I’m happy to correct you about your comments about infrastructure and “winners” 
and “losers”, but perhaps when I have time and in another thread.
I was just responding to Lawrence’s claim that fast refueling and a similar 
customer experience were “myths”.

- Mark
Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
On Dec 16, 2018, at 5:54 AM, robert winfield  wrote:


 Mark_your_ statement puzzles me about HydrogenAt least the continental US has 
an electrical grid, part of which my uncles helped build in the 1920'sThere are 
literally Billions of electrical outlets if not trillions, all supplying 
electricity.Why on earth should be build another grid to supply Hydrogen when 
we ALREADY have a grid?
I fail to understand why you want to, at enormous, useless expense, duplicate 
an existing infrastructure.
Money and thought have already spoken, decisions have been made over the last 
100+ yearshydrogen is the loser and electricity the winner.
On Saturday, December 15, 2018, 3:45:06 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 “I think the idea is that it
takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
This is the myth big business wants to purvey.”

This statement puzzles me.

Hydrogen DOES offer a quick refill, similar to a gasoline refill. In fact, the 
industry spent a lot to make the experience to consumers as close to a gas 
refill as possible.

Why do you think that’s a myth?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea is that it
> takes too long to recharge an EV and that hydrogen offers the convenience
> of a quick refuel; similar to an ICE refill.
> This is the myth big business wants to purvey.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[robert winfield via EV]

 That's very nice.i like traveling around town, and going on 1,100 mile trips 
and longer.more power to you.
where do you refuel on long trips?

On Friday, December 28, 2018, 1:04:37 AM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Sorry if didn’t think my comments positive, though maybe it’s just not what 
you wanted to hear.

If you just want to know whether hydrogen “works”, that’s easy. My family is a 
primary source on that. We have three fuel cell electric cars in the family.

We get where we want to go.

But maybe it’s just alien invaders propelling the cars.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 12/27/18 6:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
>> https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
>>  
> 
> Well..  I thought Mark had some positive comment to make.  I read the 
> above to be just wild unsubstantiated conjecture/opinion. Alien invaders 
> could be landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make hydrogen work.
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation ?cleaner?

[robert winfield via EV]

 California energy 
mixhttps://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2014_United-States_CA.png

USA energy mix
https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2017_United-States.png

On Wednesday, December 26, 2018, 4:34:03 PM EST, Darryl McMahon via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 We don't have to guess at the California electricity mix.

https://www.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/total_system_power.html

(rounding to nearest percent for simplicity)

29% from renewables other than large hydro

15% from large hydro

9% from nuclear (not renewable, but reasonably low emissions impact from 
an existing plant - final disposition of spent fuel still to be solved)

4% from coal

34% from natural gas (fossil)

9% unidentified

That's what shows up on the grid.  It does not include those producing 
off-grid, or generating for in-house use (e.g. household PV used behind 
the meter).

Greener grid means greener EV use.

As for using hydrogen as a transportation fuel for light vehicles in 
typical missions (commuting, errand running, occasional longer trips), I 
looked into this early in this century, and kept some track since. 
Things have not changed much on the technology side in the intervening 
period for hydrogen vehicles, other than using bigger storage at higher 
pressure.

Darryl McMahon
Author, award-winning book: The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (2006)
(on digest mode, so don't expect quick responses)

On 12/26/2018 4:09 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 20:53:47 + (UTC)
> From: Lawrence Rhodes
> To:ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation ?cleaner?
> Message-ID:<1956029850.2785592.1545857627...@mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> California uses mostly hydro at night.? There are natural gas plants for high 
> demand.? I think that is how it works or should work.? Lawrence Rhodes

-- 
Darryl McMahon
Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
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Re: [EVDL] Making Fun of EV Owners: F-Tesla_chanting trucksICEed/blocked all superEVSE @Sheetz.com NC store

[robert winfield via EV]

 complain to the hospital might help. We ticketed with $40 tickets folks, set 
up a listserv to tell when done, etc.Also, _you_   _have_ to charge for the 
space and must be charging and put the chrgers in non premium spots.growing 
pains
On Monday, December 31, 2018, 1:34:36 AM EST, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Interesting that California explicitly requires the vehicle to be connected 
for charging purposes, while Illinois is fine if you park an EV in a charging 
spot without even bothering to plug in.
One of my biggest issues is a local Hospital where one entitled Tesla Model S 
owner always parks in the first EV Charging stall, without ever plugging in I 
guess it belongs to an employee who always comes early. So, why not park in one 
of the other stalls without charger? Since this is a busy location with plenty 
EVs coming and only 4 Level 2 stalls, often the only way to charge is to park 
halfway in the passage and halfway across the striped area next to the Model S, 
so the cord of the charging station can reach your EV, as all other stalls are 
occupied with cars in various states of charging, so the only available station 
is in front of the Model S. Seriously, this is as inconsiderate as it comes – 
pretty much at the level of ICEing that charging station. And apparently 
equally illegal.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jim Walls via EV
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 8:53 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jim Walls
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making Fun of EV Owners: F-Tesla_chanting 
trucksICEed/blocked all superEVSE @Sheetz.com NC store

On 12/30/2018 20:33, Tom Hudson via EV wrote:
> Does anyone on the list have links to legislation prohibiting non-EVs 
> from parking in dedicated EV charging spots?  I'd like to try and get 
> ahead of this problem here in Wisconsin and it would be great if I had 
> some examples of such legislation when contacting my state 
> representatives.
>
> Armed with a state statute prohibiting such blockage, EV owners would 
> at least have a chance to get police to deal with these kinds of people.
>
> Please let me know.  Thanks!

A single Google search found this:

https://pluginsites.org/plug-in-vehicle-parking-legislation-reference/


-- 
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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Re: [EVDL] EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[robert winfield via EV]

 If you click the link and read the article, it perpetutes the --->myth<--- of 
"many Tesla battery fires, and is followed by multiple ads for gasoline fueled 
motorcycles
spreading fear and uncertainty and doubt. I expect better from the -->EVDL
On Wednesday, February 13, 2019, 11:59:04 PM EST, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote: 
 
 

https://gaadiwaadi.com/shocking-electric-two-wheeler-burns-like-a-bomb-captured-in-video/
Electric Two-Wheeler Bursts Into Flames Suddenly, Captured In Shocking Video
Feb 1, 2019  Vibin P Vijay

[image  
https://gaadiwaadi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/electric-bike-cathes-fire.jpg


video  dated
https://youtu.be/Bqwh4yUyJuE
Electric car catches fire, burns passenger
CGTN  Published on Jun 14, 2018
Surveillance footage shows an electric scooter carrying two men suddenly
burst into flames while traveling at high speed. The accident took place in
Jiangxi Province's Ganzhou City in east China on June 4.
]

Electric vehicles use highly inflammable Lithium-ion batteries, which can
catch fire and go into flames within seconds

With the world moving towards electric mobility, we will soon see roads
filled with electric vehicles. While the future of electric mobility is
still a few years away in India, the Chinese market is filled with electric
vehicles and the consumers have accepted the vehicles quite well. There are
many kinds of electric vehicle on sale in the Chinese market including the
locally-made ones.

(Above) is a video of a locally assembled electric two-wheeler in China that
catches fire within seconds and was reduced to ashes. Electric vehicles use
complicated charging modules and have big batteries that power the electric
motor. Most of the modern-day electric vehicles get the highly efficient
lithium-ion batteries, which are known for their excellent capacity and
charge hold time.

However, the lithium-ion batteries can be extremely dangerous. As seen in
the video, the scooter catches fire in the middle of the road and within
seconds the whole vehicle is engulfed in the fire. Lithium-ion batteries can
get affected in many various ways. It can be because of a short-circuit or a
punctured battery pack.

The fire can spread uncontrollably. To ensure that the batteries remain safe
and avoid any such incident, manufacturers often install safety device that
can cut off the power supply to the battery during a short circuit. Many
manufacturers also place them in secured enclosures to avoid any punctures,
especially during high-speed accidents.

It is not only about low-cost electric vehicles being vulnerable to such
accidents. Many Tesla vehicles have also caught fire after accidents due to
the lithium-ion batteries. While the electric future looks unavoidable now,
manufacturers should be working towards the vehicles safer. Electric
vehicles can explode during accidents and that reduces any chance of
survival.

The shocking incident in China also shows police officers carrying fire
extinguishers and dousing the out-of-control fire. Even with the
extinguisher, it takes some time to bring the fire under control. There is
no doubt that electric vehicles are the future but will be safer than the
regular vehicles in the market? That’s a big question that remains
unanswered for the time being.
[© gaadiwaadi.com]


http://ktar.com/story/2424957/man-charged-with-dui-on-electric-scooter-in-tempe/
Man charged with DUI on electric scooter in Tempe
February 5, 2019  It is believed to be the first electric scooter-related
DUI charge in the Valley. ... Rural Road when he was involved in a crash
with a parked car in another lane ...
...
https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/tempe/tempe-police-arrest-man-on-dui-charges-while-riding-scooter
Tempe police arrest man on DUI charges after crash while riding scooter
Feb 05, 2019  Tempe, FL police arrest man on DUI charges after crash while
riding scooter ... on DUI charges after he was involved in a crash while on
an electric scooter. ... of his lane before the wreck and collided with the
car when he entered the other lane ...
http://mediaassets.theindychannel.com/photo/2018/06/25/Scooters_Indy_1529931145086_90745088_ver1.0.jpg


https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/fl-ne-scooter-lawsuit-20190211-story.html
Electric scooter accident puts Florida woman in coma
Feb 11, 2019  Electric scooters will keep on rolling in Fort Lauderdale ...
Jordan was struck by a passenger car at the intersection of Sou...


https://www.wsoctv.com/news/thursday-car-company-may-expand-recall-after-reports-of-seat-warmers-catching-on-fire/914712142
Drivers blame seat heaters for fires, call on car company to issue new
recall
Feb 4, 2019  CHARLOTTE, N.C. - Drivers told Channel 9 their vehicles caught
fire, and they blame the electric seat warmers ...
https://mediaweb.wsoctv.com/photo/2019/02/04/022218-wsoc-seat-fire-pics_1519319510820_10891366_ver1.0_1549326416119_14392604_ver1.0_640_360.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neoc

Re: [EVDL] EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[robert winfield via EV]

 ___EXACTLY___ How many Tesla battery fires? eh? vs the over 180,000 gasoline 
fires of ICE vehicles/yrTell me __HOW__ many --> spontaneous<<--- battery 
fires?  (Hint: ZERO)
BMW seems to have a few spontaneous thoughthat link is an ad for gasoline 
powered motorcycles
On Thursday, February 14, 2019, 3:18:11 PM EST, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 There have been battery fires in wrecked Tesla’s this is a real danger. Don’t 
plow you car into anything!  More disturbing is the article not calling out the 
firemen for incorrect techniques to douse a battery fire. Never use devices 
designed to smother the fire. The only way to put out a lithium battery fire is 
to remove the heat with water. It is not called thermal run away for no reason. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2019, at 8:44 AM, robert winfield via EV  wrote:
> 
> If you click the link and read the article, it perpetutes the --->myth<--- of 
> "many Tesla battery fires, and is followed by multiple ads for gasoline 
> fueled motorcycles
> spreading fear and uncertainty and doubt. I expect better from the -->EVDL
> On Wednesday, February 13, 2019, 11:59:04 PM EST, brucedp5 via EV 
>  wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> https://gaadiwaadi.com/shocking-electric-two-wheeler-burns-like-a-bomb-captured-in-video/
> Electric Two-Wheeler Bursts Into Flames Suddenly, Captured In Shocking Video
> Feb 1, 2019  Vibin P Vijay
> 
> [image  
> https://gaadiwaadi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/electric-bike-cathes-fire.jpg
> 
> 
> video  dated
> https://youtu.be/Bqwh4yUyJuE
> Electric car catches fire, burns passenger
> CGTN  Published on Jun 14, 2018
> Surveillance footage shows an electric scooter carrying two men suddenly
> burst into flames while traveling at high speed. The accident took place in
> Jiangxi Province's Ganzhou City in east China on June 4.
> ]
> 
> Electric vehicles use highly inflammable Lithium-ion batteries, which can
> catch fire and go into flames within seconds
> 
> With the world moving towards electric mobility, we will soon see roads
> filled with electric vehicles. While the future of electric mobility is
> still a few years away in India, the Chinese market is filled with electric
> vehicles and the consumers have accepted the vehicles quite well. There are
> many kinds of electric vehicle on sale in the Chinese market including the
> locally-made ones.
> 
> (Above) is a video of a locally assembled electric two-wheeler in China that
> catches fire within seconds and was reduced to ashes. Electric vehicles use
> complicated charging modules and have big batteries that power the electric
> motor. Most of the modern-day electric vehicles get the highly efficient
> lithium-ion batteries, which are known for their excellent capacity and
> charge hold time.
> 
> However, the lithium-ion batteries can be extremely dangerous. As seen in
> the video, the scooter catches fire in the middle of the road and within
> seconds the whole vehicle is engulfed in the fire. Lithium-ion batteries can
> get affected in many various ways. It can be because of a short-circuit or a
> punctured battery pack.
> 
> The fire can spread uncontrollably. To ensure that the batteries remain safe
> and avoid any such incident, manufacturers often install safety device that
> can cut off the power supply to the battery during a short circuit. Many
> manufacturers also place them in secured enclosures to avoid any punctures,
> especially during high-speed accidents.
> 
> It is not only about low-cost electric vehicles being vulnerable to such
> accidents. Many Tesla vehicles have also caught fire after accidents due to
> the lithium-ion batteries. While the electric future looks unavoidable now,
> manufacturers should be working towards the vehicles safer. Electric
> vehicles can explode during accidents and that reduces any chance of
> survival.
> 
> The shocking incident in China also shows police officers carrying fire
> extinguishers and dousing the out-of-control fire. Even with the
> extinguisher, it takes some time to bring the fire under control. There is
> no doubt that electric vehicles are the future but will be safer than the
> regular vehicles in the market? That’s a big question that remains
> unanswered for the time being.
> [© gaadiwaadi.com]
> 
> 
> http://ktar.com/story/2424957/man-charged-with-dui-on-electric-scooter-in-tempe/
> Man charged with DUI on electric scooter in Tempe
> February 5, 2019  It is believed to be the first electric scooter-related
> DUI charge in the Valley. ... Rural Road when he was involved in a crash
> with a parked car in another lane ...
> ...
> https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/tempe/tempe-police-arrest-man-on-dui-charges-while-riding-scooter
> T

Re: [EVDL] I wonder where the Clunns are

[robert winfield via EV]

we left Cape Coral tuesday for Maryland, 10-15ft storm surge anticipated in 
Fort Myers/Naples, may or, may not have house. if lucky boat will sink in canal 
and protect from other boats coming up canal. will have to throw all food away 
from fridge.

  From: jerry freedomev via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: jerry freedomev 
 Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 10:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] I wonder where the Clunns are
   
                                Hi Willy and All,

                                            I'm 4 miles east  of Tampa Bay, 
close or at ground zero as the track presently is and where the max winds will 
be, the dangerous quadrant .  I'm at 52' and immune to flooding, can't get 
deeper than 2" and only until the downpour keeps up a 4"/hr rate for a while as 
either soak into the sand or run slightly downhill. and as an old Florida boy, 
I know better. 
                                            But likely over 100mph winds so I 
already signed into a cat 5 shelter and have other options too.
                                            My place, 63 Vette body, chassis, 
workshops, etc can't though.
                                            I'm boarded up, packed but will 
wait until things get over 45mph steady then hit the shelter for about 10 hrs, 
and get back once wind go down to 50mph.  
                                          The Clunns are  in low lying like 
most all of that area in a mandatory evacuation zone I believe the whole county 
is under.  
                                            I have an old friend living a 
couple miles from them on higher land and he is leaving east.
                                            And close to the coast and good  
possibility can get hit by 100mph+ winds and  the surge  if the present course 
verifies after the storm passes.  Most it'll depend on the forward speed as it 
takes time for the winds to build up the surge but presently say 12-15' in 
their area.  
                                          And the massive rains that might 
happen can bring the flood from inland.
                                          All up if it stays at 120mph + just 
offshore putting the most dangerous winds right on the coastal areas most 
densely populated and the most time to make the surge, damage will be extensive 
losing maybe 25% of homes, buildings and literally changing the coastline      .
                                          Taking out whole islands, losing 
200-500' of coast/beaches  with our most expensive properties is likely if it 
goes as they say.
                                          The first feeder bands are coming 
through Tampa now but they are mostly just good rain storms. 
                                              It just hit the Keys with 130mph 
winds so likely will be little left for 40 miles likely taking out the only 
road, US1 for weeks, months even.
                                            Let's hope it speeds up and veers 
west but the just make it bad for others on the upper gulf coast.    We'll 
survive but is going to take a lot to put it back together.  I'll do fine as I 
can rebuild fairly fast, low cost if needed, even better. 
                                        My big worry and interestingly protects 
us is I live in an old oak forest that protects us from winds until they fall 
down, which is the major reason I'm not staying home in the worse part in case 
they do.
                                        All our trees take out the powerlines 
like in Charlie a weaker storm that hot me with 75mph winds and took out put 
with 3 hot miserable days of listening to generators.  Likely it'll be days, 
even a week longer.  Last time I just used my lightweight EV's to supply my 
power and almost ran out just when the power came back on.  I had a set up wit 
7-11 to recharge my EVs I normally used for extending my 40 mile range but 
didn't need it.
                                        Now I have solar, batteries so no 
problem for me. 
                                        Going to be an interesting 24 hours.  
                                                                            
Jerry Dycus
              



On Sun, 9/10/17, Willie via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] I wonder where the Clunns are
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Willie" 
 Date: Sunday, September 10, 2017, 8:00 AM
 
 I've heard Crystal River is under an
 evacuation order.  Even though most 
 houses in the area are on the ground,
 the Clunn house is on stilts. 
 They may have decided to stick it out.
 
 In what part of the state does Jerry
 Dycus live?
 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 compliance EV) r:87mi

[robert winfield via EV]

"An ICE vehicle just needs a stamped piece of metal to store it's energy.  An 
EV needs a complicated, expensive battery (or pie in the sky fuel cell)."
It's the fuel that goes inside the stamped piece of metal, or the "complicated, 
expensive battery"
where do you get the fuel, "gasoline" or the fuel "sunlight"?
personally, i have been partially opting for "sunlight" since 1999 with a tiny 
PV array, and am hopefully on track for a much larger PV array so my "partial" 
can change to almost or even 100% or greater

  From: damon henry via EV 
 To: Rod Hower ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
Cc: damon henry 
 Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 11:31 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi
   
I don't disagree with your assessment of less complexity, more reliability, but 
the less expensive part is tough to accomplish.  This is primarily because of 
the energy storage systems.  An ICE vehicle just needs a stamped piece of metal 
to store it's energy.  An EV needs a complicated, expensive battery (or pie in 
the sky fuel cell).  There will always be a huge price difference in this part 
of the technology regardless of mass production economics, so the cost 
difference will have to made up elsewhere.  The most likely place would be the 
drivetrain, since the rest of the vehicle is kind of a wash,  If you can build 
the electric motor/inverter/gear reduction for less than internal combustion 
engine/transmission/control electronics, you have a chance of matching price 
for comparable vehicles.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Rod Hower via EV 

Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:09:38 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Rod Hower
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi

From an engineering viewpoint, EV's are much less complex than an internal 
combustion engine.  Instead of thousands of parts trying to put lipstick on a 
pig to increase emissions, you have a simple electric motor with a couple of 
bearings.  The inverter is complex electronics, but not anymore than all of the 
modules created to control an engine and keep emissions in check.  How many 
electric motor or inverter failures have you heard about?  The battery system 
is complex and in transition, but the range is increasing and complexity is 
less than that for an ICE.  I see far less failure possibilities in an EV and 
believe that in mass production they are considerably cheaper to produce than 
an ICE.  I think the automotive industry is beginning to realize this but it 
does create problems for the resale market that keeps cars on the road (for 
example, Autozone, no oil changes or filters, almost no brakes or calipers, no 
antifreeze, mufflers, O2 sensors etc. for them to sale).  Tesla change
 d the game and it's downhill from here for the ICE!


    On Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:30 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:


 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a
2012 compliance EV)

Business that are only in anything only to make a quick buck will always
fail in the long run.  Building any car takes hundreds of millions of dollar
investment in new engineering and tooling.  Only a fool or a crook would try
to get that all back in selling just a few hundred cars.

No, ALL cars, not just EV's have to sell hundreds of thousands to be
"profitable" its just the cost of doing business.

Remember the big right wing commentators that said that a Chevy Volt cost
more than a Hummer?  Because they simply took all that was invested by GM
over the previous 8 years of designing and building the Volt and then
divided by the first 1000 cars sold and came up with a HUGE cost.

Only the stupid would believe such hogwash...

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Go Tesla go!

[robert winfield via EV]

/rant on
i will only comment about stocks _once_ since this is EVDL list
around 1990 i bought 100 shares of AMER for $30/share, and sold them for 
$40/share, a tidy $1,000 profit!AMER changed it's name to AOL, split 128x, 
topped out at $100/share.I took $1,000 profit, and missed $1,280,000 because I 
was impatient over 1.2 million dollars.
I was told to buy AAPL 31 years ago but it wasn't "exciting enough" (apple)It 
split 56X and would be worth, to me $8,724/share or $872,480, if i had done so 
and just been patient, but i didn't
I intend to hold my Tesla stock 30 more years or my death and my children 
inherit it, like I should have done AAPL, and others.I expect, but I may be 
horrifically wrong and lose everything, but i doubt that, however the stock 
market is merciless., Tesla vehicles and the entire Tesla ecosystem, Tesla 
energy, SpaceX, hyperloop, neural link, Mars, the incipient lunar colony, all 
the rest, to be worth 10-20 times as much, in the next 10-20-30 years, electric 
vehicles, the entire ecosystem that will address the electric ecosystem the 
planet is transisitioning to, away from fossil fuels
/rant off, back to EV's

  From: Michael Ross via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Michael Ross 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Go Tesla go!
   
Mark is exactly right, a short is a bet that the share price will drop in
the near term. It is not a vote that Tesla will fail in the long term.

Personally, I never buy with the thought of selling.  I try to buy
enterprises that have a chance of big success in a long time frame, like 5
to 10 years. Otherwise, I buy total market index shares. In the short term,
it is hard to be better than the market as a whole, but the long term
investor has a potential to beat the market in a longer time frame with
individual stock picks.

I own Tesla stock, but not so much that I would lose sleep over its bad
treatment by the market.  The market is generally concerned with the next
week or quarter, not 5 or 10 years.  I would venture that many investors in
Tesla are willing to buy at what looks like an elevated price because they
believe in the long term prospects. Sounds like Fidelity feels this way in
the article.

My last purchase came when Tesla committed to the Gigafactory. I consider
the battery business to be far more likely to show a profit than the auto
manufacturing business. I will buy more when I see some expansion of the
battery business. I think the short sellers are unconcerned with such long
term ideas as mega Watts of batteries for sale.

Breaking into the car industry is a very hard thing to do.  Despite share
valuation, companies like Ford and GM have incredible resources. You are
seeing established car companies moving into the EV space and they can
muster immense human can capital resources.  Tesla shows the way and the
big money follows and possibly kicks a$$ on a grander scale.  We shall see
the the various Tesla innovations pay off: dealer-less sales methodology,
AI to drive them for us, the supercharger system, better service, etc.


On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Being short does not mean that they are being on Tesla's failure. They are
> betting that the stock will go down from where it is.
>
> I don't short stocks, because the potential loss on a short is infinite.
>
> But if you look at the stock price, you'll see that the current price is
> extremely high based on any traditional valuation. But it always has been -
> that's how the stock gas been behaving up to now.
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:43 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > I finally bought some Tesla stock.  THe only stock I own.
> >
> > I just wanted to contribute to his vision independent of whether it made
> > any money or not.  But our "finincial advisor" said she could not process
> > the order becaue she and her company is bound by the fiduciary rule from
> > letting me do anything that is not in my best interest!  SHe said that
> her
> > company consideres Tesla as over priced by at east a factor of two and
> not
> > viable.
> >
> > OK, now what?  So she established another account that was not bound by
> the
> > feduciary rule and I bought a few shares.
> >
> > THen an article this weekend lends light and opened my eyes.  FUlly 27%
> or
> > almost one thrid of Tesla investors are short, meaning all their stock is
> > BETTING on Tesla's FAILURE.  So of course, when ever they comment on
> Tesla
> > they bash it, and try to scare other investors away, because every time
> the
> > stock goes up, they lose millions.
> >
> > https://cleantechnica.com/2017/10/08/epic-battle-
> happening-musk-tesla-haters/
> >
> > Screw em!  Go Tesla Go!
> >
> > Bob
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:  attachments/20171009/09a9a56b/attachment.html>
> > _

Re: [EVDL] OT - Re: Go Tesla go!

[robert winfield via EV]

i'm almost 70 and have been investing for over 40+ years, however the EVDL is 
supposed to be for EV's, including EV boats so..

  From: Mark Abramowitz 
 To: robert winfield via EV  
Cc: robert winfield 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:29 PM
 Subject: OT - Re: [EVDL] Go Tesla go!
   
Hard to predict the future. You invested in speculative stocks. Nothing wrong 
with taking a profit, either all or some. But spec stocks are just that - 
speculative. You should be prepared to lose all or some of it. And they should 
only be part of a diversified portfolio.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 10, 2017, at 5:48 AM, robert winfield via EV  wrote:
> 
> /rant on
> i will only comment about stocks _once_ since this is EVDL list
> around 1990 i bought 100 shares of AMER for $30/share, and sold them for 
> $40/share, a tidy $1,000 profit!AMER changed it's name to AOL, split 128x, 
> topped out at $100/share.I took $1,000 profit, and missed $1,280,000 because 
> I was impatient over 1.2 million dollars.
> I was told to buy AAPL 31 years ago but it wasn't "exciting enough" (apple)It 
> split 56X and would be worth, to me $8,724/share or $872,480, if i had done 
> so and just been patient, but i didn't
> I intend to hold my Tesla stock 30 more years or my death and my children 
> inherit it, like I should have done AAPL, and others.I expect, but I may be 
> horrifically wrong and lose everything, but i doubt that, however the stock 
> market is merciless., Tesla vehicles and the entire Tesla ecosystem, Tesla 
> energy, SpaceX, hyperloop, neural link, Mars, the incipient lunar colony, all 
> the rest, to be worth 10-20 times as much, in the next 10-20-30 years, 
> electric vehicles, the entire ecosystem that will address the electric 
> ecosystem the planet is transisitioning to, away from fossil fuels
> /rant off, back to EV's
> 
>      From: Michael Ross via EV 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
> Cc: Michael Ross 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Go Tesla go!
> 
> Mark is exactly right, a short is a bet that the share price will drop in
> the near term. It is not a vote that Tesla will fail in the long term.
> 
> Personally, I never buy with the thought of selling.  I try to buy
> enterprises that have a chance of big success in a long time frame, like 5
> to 10 years. Otherwise, I buy total market index shares. In the short term,
> it is hard to be better than the market as a whole, but the long term
> investor has a potential to beat the market in a longer time frame with
> individual stock picks.
> 
> I own Tesla stock, but not so much that I would lose sleep over its bad
> treatment by the market.  The market is generally concerned with the next
> week or quarter, not 5 or 10 years.  I would venture that many investors in
> Tesla are willing to buy at what looks like an elevated price because they
> believe in the long term prospects. Sounds like Fidelity feels this way in
> the article.
> 
> My last purchase came when Tesla committed to the Gigafactory. I consider
> the battery business to be far more likely to show a profit than the auto
> manufacturing business. I will buy more when I see some expansion of the
> battery business. I think the short sellers are unconcerned with such long
> term ideas as mega Watts of batteries for sale.
> 
> Breaking into the car industry is a very hard thing to do.  Despite share
> valuation, companies like Ford and GM have incredible resources. You are
> seeing established car companies moving into the EV space and they can
> muster immense human can capital resources.  Tesla shows the way and the

   
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Re: [EVDL] How important is the ability to recharge w/o plugging in a cord?> Does wireless matter?

[robert winfield via EV]

A simple thought experiment
If you are charging at a paltry 6.6kW, and inductively charging, and losing a 
mere 5% due to "The pain of plugging in" you lose over 300 watts, or 3, 100 
watt lightbulbs under your vehicle, making a nice warm place for critters in 
the winter.
If you are charging inductively at 19.2kW, and using "lossy" inductive charging 
at "only 5%" you have a 960 watt, electric stove eye on _high_ right under the 
vehicle, really heating stuff up
Are folks _really_ comfortable with putting electric resistance heaters of 300 
to 960+ watts right underneath very expensive vehicles, right next to the 
batteries that need active or passive _cooling_?
How long would you hold your hand 5-10 inches away from an electric stove on 
high?  Would you willingly heat your battery extra, reducing the lifespan?

  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: brucedp5 
 Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017 1:09 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] How important is the ability to recharge w/o plugging in a 
cord?> Does wireless matter?
   


https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113306_how-much-does-wireless-charging-matter-for-electric-cars-poll-results
How much does wireless charging matter for electric cars? Poll results
Oct 17, 2017  John Voelcker

[images  
https://images.hgmsites.net/med/2018-bmw-530e-iperformance-wireless-charging_100606443_m.jpg
2018 BMW 530e iPerformance wireless charging
]

The announcements by BMW and Mercedes-Benz that they would offer wireless
charging as an option next year raise a question for electric-car advocates.

How important is the ability to recharge a vehicle without plugging in a
cord?

On the pro side, wireless charging may be easier for owners and drivers, who
don't have to remember to plug in the charging cable when they park.

As envisioned by makers of inductive charging equipment (as it's formally
known), semi-autonomous cars of the future would even know how to position
themselves over the charging mat.

That means drivers would be relieved of the need to ensure the car is in
exactly the right place to enable the two coils—one in the mat on the
ground, the other on the undercarriage of the car—to align.

Such self-driving features are likely to be introduced first at the top end
of the market, so it makes sense that the two German brands will offer the
option on pricey plug-in hybrid sedan models.

On the other hand, purchase and installation of wireless charging equipment
isn't cheap, currently running several thousand dollars.

That includes buying and installing the charging mat, which may require
trenching for the power cable (depending on local building codes) and then
installing the coil underneath the car itself.

Most electric-car owners seem to feel that plugging in a car to charge isn't
that big a hassle. Charging stations for personal use, meanwhile, now run
from $400 to $1,000, and every plug-in car comes with a charging port built
in.

We surveyed our Twitter followers to see how important they thought wireless
charging would be for plug-in electric vehicles in the future.

The results came down pretty firmly on the "nice to have but not a
game-changer" side: 45 percent called wireless charging "a nice option."

Another 35 percent thought it wasn't necessary, at least for them, choosing
the "Plugs are all you need" response.

Just 14 percent of respondents felt that wireless charging was "the best!"
and the remaining 6 percent felt it would be a low-volume option on cars of
the future.

We take away from this pretty much what we'd expected: wireless charging may
be an appealing option for some buyers, but it's probably not going to have
a huge effect on electric cars in general.
[© 2017 Green Car Reports]




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[robert winfield via EV]

 we would, with great happiness and alacrity, inform the parking police of 
illegally parked ICE vehicles in extremely clearly marked spaces, and they 
would get a parking ticket (we had 8 charging spots for around 80-100 EV's). 
the ticket could not be ignored as it was a -->federal<-- ticket and they track 
down scofflaws who fail to pay tickets ($40!)
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, 10:06:27 AM EST, Dan Baker via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Thanks Mark!  A bit more aggressive than thought, more like I was
originally suggesting?  Won't be able to cite any laws, don't think we have
any yet, big plus for California to be that far ahead.

I found a site dated back to 2012 that has a link to more gentle notices.

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/1026/Have-you-been-ICE-d-Drivers-promote-electric-car-parking-etiquette

Not which sure which method to deploy.  I have noticed there is one ICE car
that is there before me in the am and parks in the same EV spot every day,
even though the lot is mostly empty at that point. So this one looks to be
a true non-believer or even hater.

I have taken to facebook and created a local Nova Scotia Electric Vehicles
group to promote awareness. I have posted a pic of the lot issues and have
asked to have it shared.  I have blotted out the license plates, for now.

Cheers
Dan



On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:

> Here's the link:
>
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://evnut.com/
> docs/flyers/ev_parking_only.doc
>
> I'm told several versions were made. The maintainer of the site where this
> is housed (EVnut.com), and the author of this one suggested a little
> editing - “This vehicle” would become “your vehicle” and some of the
> “Electric Vehicle Recharging Station” redundancy could be eliminated.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 8, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Hey everyone thanks for the response so far.  I agree now, better to try
> a
> > more friendly method then resort to push & threaten.  So frustrating
> > though, easy to get caught up.  Would love to see some of those printed
> > cards/flyers Mark!
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dan
> >
> >> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> >>
> >>> So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.
> >>>
> >>> I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture
> of me
> >>> holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my
> EV
> >>> -
> >>> but darn it, it just won't quite reach.
> >>>
> >>> I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic,
> and
> >>> a
> >>> little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you
> >>> please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd
> sign
> >>> it
> >>> something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia
> >>> species, EV Driver."
> >>>
> >>> That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with
> >>> something much more creative and entertaining.
> >>>
> >>> But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being
> confrontational.
> >>> Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in
> >>> Canada
> >>> than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.
> >>>
> >>> I love it! It's worth a try. :-)
> >>
> >> I remember a study on how hard it is to make signs that people will
> >> actually respond to. You have to somehow make it memorable, connect with
> >> the reader, and make him want to join "your" side. Humor is a good way
> to
> >> do this.
> >>
> >> For example, a sign that says simply "No littering" is completely
> useless.
> >> In contrast, one of the most effective was an old Pogo cartoon for Earth
> >> Day. It shows Pogo Possum attempting to clean up the litter in his
> beloved
> >> swamp. The caption reads, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
> >>
> >> --
> >> If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to
> >> each other.
> >>    (Mother Teresa)
> >> --
> >> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> >>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)

[robert winfield via EV]

 in case, or not, please remember the guy who drove the "Solar Taxi" 40,000+ km 
around the world. a small 2 seater EV, towing about a 30ft+ (~9-10m) trailor 
with PV panels and a single heated battery.


On Friday, December 29, 2017, 10:42:02 PM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 SO much negativity on this list towards someone that just asked a simple 
question, and acknowledged the challenges and issues up front.
Personally, I applaud the initiative and willingness to tilt at technological, 
economic, and other assorted windmills.

As my Tai Kwon Do instructor used to say,"impossible today, possible tomorrow."

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> 
> I agree 100%.
> Folks forget that it takes significant energy to tow even a small trailer. 
> Much more than one would think. Probably more energy than the panels produce, 
> especially at highway speeds.
> 
> Best to leave them on the roof of your house, or put them on a "solar shed" 
> for your car to park under at work.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
> On 12/29/2017 8:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>> Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
>>> maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.
>> 
>> Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two priuses.  I
>> tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.
>> 
>> The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much per
>> watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES more
>> surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand times
>> less practical.
>> 
>> ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts) behind my
>> prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG.  Meanwhile it
>> is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on the best
>> summer day.
>> 
>> So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.
>> 
>> The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field while
>> parked at camping and Ham radio events.
>> 
>> Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and trailer.
>> http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>> 
>> Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time and
>> spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home grid-tied,
>> does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99% of the
>> time while parked.
>> 
>> Bob, WB4PRR
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

[robert winfield via EV]

 Bob,if you go to this web page, you can get the BP Statistical review of world 
energy, 2017, with a lot of data.You can see how PV is increasing, whom is 
installing (countries) etc, wind, oil, etcDownloads | Statistical Review of 
World Energy | Energy economics | BP


| 
| 
|  | 
Downloads | Statistical Review of World Energy | Energy economics | BP


 |

 |

 |


If you go to this page from Lawrence Livermore National Labs, you can see a 
graphical Sankey diagram of energy use, and waste for mostly the US, with 
inputs of PV, hydro, nuclear, wind, coal, natural gas, oil/petroleum, biomass, 
geothermal and outputs (there is a lot of wasted energy, 79% of input for 
transportation is wasted/rejected energy,
https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy/downloads.html





On Thursday, January 4, 2018, 11:17:12 PM EST, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 What has changed in the years since that data was valid is that Wind is now
cheaper than even wholesale coal or natual gas.
Stop hanging onto the past... solar and wind are here for those open to
change.  And it is cheaper.  Solar coming in at under 2 cents per kWh in
the last large solar array in South America.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 7:00 PM, jim--- via EV  wrote:

>
> Absolutely.  At least around here, the renewable sourced electricity goes
> into the system regardless.  It is not a controllable source (other than
> opening breakers - which does not happen).  And at the wholesale level, the
> utilities pay a very high price for that power.  Here is a very simplified
> hypothetical example.  If 90% of the non-renewable power costs $50 per
> MegaWattHour, 9% costs $60 per MWH and 1% costs $400 per MWH, the renewable
> gets paid at the $400 rate, and the electric utilities have no choice in
> the price of if they buy it - they are required to.  It matter absolutely
> none whether anyone pays a "green power" rate.  As several people pointed
> out, if more people pay for the "green" energy, it can have the political
> affect that I alluded to, but that his not likely to have any effect on
> someone deciding to build more green power.
>
> BTW, a note that this data is a few years old, but I am not aware that it
> has changed.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Jan Steinman via EV" 
> Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 13:59
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Jan Steinman" 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)
>
>
>
> > From: "j...@k6ccc.org" 
> >
> > That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get
> "green" power. All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for
> something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.
>
> Are you so certain that is the case?
>
> In our case (at least) BC Hydro does not buy third-party wind power unless
> directed to do so. The Bullfrog Power customers cause BC Hydro to purchase
> Bullfrog's power, rather than supplying Bullfrog Power customers with BC
> Hydro power.
>
> At least, that’s what everyone from Bullfrog to BC Hydro to the BC Utility
> Commission tells us. Are they lying?
>
> BC Hydro *can* throttle its dams if it buys wind power. Are you saying
> they do not do so? If not, where does the extra power go? Is the voltage
> higher than it would be if wind power were not “on line?” Would the voltage
> drop if the wind power suddenly “went away?"
>
> Can you provide some evidence that “it does not change the generation mix
> at all?”
>
> de N7JDB
>
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Re: [EVDL] Electric Mini Boat

[robert winfield via EV]

 its quite cute. I can easily see it getting swamped with teeny tiny waves too. 
we have hungry alligators around here with bigger eyes
On Monday, January 29, 2018, 10:52:38 AM EST, corbin dunn via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi EVDL,

My friend came up with the latest cool EV: an electric mini boat! He designed 
this 6’ length boat that can hold a full sized person. I cruised around in it a 
bit, and it was pretty fun. Check out pictures and some video links on his 
site: http://rapidwhale.com/mini-boat.php   — he is also selling kits for those 
inclined to build their own.

-corbin
My electric VW bug conversion, with nearly 50k EV miles: 
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/plug-bug/

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Re: [EVDL] Fast Charging... (Flywheel?)

[robert winfield via EV]

There are a few technical problems with flywheel energy storage and moving 
vehicles.There is a term called "precession"It's why a gyroscope stands up when 
spinning and doesn't fall over. If you push it over it resists and pushes 
back.If you force it over it goes in a different direction. It "wants" to point 
in 1 direction.Put a 70,000 revolution per minute gyroscope in a car. You can 
drive in a straight line only. If you try to turn, you cannot because you have 
25+ kilowatts saying otherwise.The car will "precess" around the gyroscope (ie 
roll over slowly or violently)Then the gyroscope will slip off its bearings and 
catastrophic disassembleThe new term is RUDWe had an ultracentrifuge spinning 
70,000 rpm, it was a pyramidal shaped cylinder that exploded.It "slamdanced" 
for about 20 minutes it's container , about the size of a refrigerator, hitting 
walls, bleeding off energy.I think gyroscopes may be good for stationary 
storage, although Beacon energy, that was pushing it also had an explosion of 
its energy storage.You also have to continually recertification the centrifuges 
and take out of use as they still have limited life spans, not good for cars

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 3:17 AM, Paul Compton via EV wrote: 
  As I recall, there was a company that had produced a commercial 30kWh
flywheel storage system. Ideal for peak load shaving,
voltage/frequency stabilisation, and buying off peak to use during the
day etc. Cycle life was essentially infinite with the rotor spinning
on magnetic bearings in an evacuated chamber.

It wasn't physically small, something like 4 meters tall.

JET, the joint European torus fusion research facility uses flywheel
storage to provide the enormous peak power needed to drive the
magnetic bottle.

"The main source of power for establishing the magnetic fields
required for inducing and confining the plasma current in the machine
consists of the two identical Flywheel-Generator-Convertor (FGC)
systems.

At the heart of each system is a 409.8 MVA fly-wheel ALSTOM generator,
with its own auxiliaries including oil systems, air-cooling system,
pony motor, excitation equipment, LV distribution for supply of
auxiliaries and HV distribution for generator excitation and pony
motor drive."

On 8 February 2018 at 16:20, Dan Kegel via EV  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV
>  wrote:
>> I wonder how big a flywheel is needed to store the energy to charge a 250
>> mile range in 20 minutes?
>> Since it is fixed, and does not have to be in a vehicle, it might be the
>> answer to large charging stations.
>>
>> When ten TESLAs pull up at ten fast charge cords at the same time, that is
>> over a megawatt of needed power... in 20 minutes...
>
> That application doesn't capitalize on the flywheel's ultrafast
> charging and discharging abilities.
> And smoothing can be done by modulating the teslas' charging rates.
>
> But hey, who knows.  See
> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2014&q=flywheel&hl=de&as_sdt=2005&sciodt=0,5&cites=16378509166563059026&scipsc=1
> for recent related papers.
> - Dan
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-- 
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] Full disclosure: EMW consulting

[robert winfield via EV]

 good luck
On Saturday, April 7, 2018, 9:51:35 AM EDT, Rod Hower via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Good luck Cor!  I'm sure you'll do very well there and I'm looking forward to 
seeing new products introduced.
 

    On Saturday, April 7, 2018 4:39 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
 

 Wishing you all the best!  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Watt pu-truck: my Volt totaled

[robert winfield via EV]

 It's (the dead body of the Volt) in El Paso, Texas possibly at Crawford 
Collision if anyone interested in scrapping itOn Monday, May 7, 2018, 
12:47:01 PM EDT, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:  (sad,  too bad 
EVwest can't convert it to a light truck/ute-pih)
https://www.google.com/search?q=2014+chevy+Volt+battery
>
https://www.ebay.com/i/282877508012?chn=ps
2014 CHEVROLET VOLT Lithium-ion Battery Pack & Modules Assembly chevy very
good
$2,199.00
    See details for delivery est.
    • Used condition
    • Returns accepted - 30 days money back
16.5 KWh, fits 2013 and 2014 models


  
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