Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 30 May 2015 at 13:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

> As I wrote: has anybody bothered to tell the NSA that what they're doing is
> illegal?

I'm not sure that makes a difference to them.  But tossing that political 
football round is OT for us, and also kind of pointless, since it won't 
change anything.  

I think what matters in this discussion is that at least some EVs are 
already passing information about your use of them back to the manufacturer.

Now suppose your legislature passes an EV pay-by-mileage law, and your local 
DMV gives you a choice between allowing them access to your EV's data and 
not getting a license for the EV.  They have an economic interest in those 
data, since online access means that they don't have to pay someone to check 
your odometer.  Hey, look how wisely they're using your tax dollars!  :-\

Again, I'm no attorney, but as I understand it, courts have ruled that 
driving isn't a fundamental right.  You have the choice to maintain your 
privacy by not driving your EV, and your constitutional rights are thus  
sufficiently satisfied.

Fifteen years ago I would have said this couldn't happen, but a lot has 
happened in that time that I thought never would.  

I also thought that the contribution EVs make to the public health (and thus 
public expense) would be rewarded by allowing them to escape fuel tax. I 
sure was wrong about that!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 30, 2015, at 2:09 PM, Mr23 via EV  wrote:

> Isn't the NSA a bit beyond the EVDL's charter ?

The context is vehicles, especially new factory electric vehicles, with a full 
suite of Big Brother spying equipment built into the car, hardware that we 
already know reports back to the manufacturers.

Much as I think the Teslas are really truly impressive feats of 
engineering...even if I found a winning lottery ticket laying on the sidewalk, 
I'd still think long and hard about buying one. I'd cut a check for a Zombie 
222 in an heartbeat...but a Tesla? Not so sure

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Mr23 via EV]

Isn't the NSA a bit beyond the EVDL's charter ?

On 5/30/2015 3:58 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On May 30, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:


Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You 
need a court order

Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law enforcement agencies 
that work with the NSA on "parallel construction"? How about the marketing 
firms that buy the data outright from those who collect it and then turn around and 
re-sell it to anybody with money?

I don't believe it's illegal for private companies. It is however illegal for 
the government to do it.

As I wrote: has anybody bothered to tell the NSA that what they're doing is 
illegal?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 30, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

>>> Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You 
>>> need a court order
>> 
>> Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law 
>> enforcement agencies that work with the NSA on "parallel construction"? How 
>> about the marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect 
>> it and then turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money?
> 
> I don't believe it's illegal for private companies. It is however illegal for 
> the government to do it.

As I wrote: has anybody bothered to tell the NSA that what they're doing is 
illegal?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sat May 30 09:25:16 PDT 2015 e...@msn.com said:
>Here in Montana, there are fuel pumps for using in vehicles for off roads 
>driving meaning country, state and federal.  You can cross them, but cannot 
>drive them.

Yes, and those vehicles probably aren't registered as on-road vehicles, so 
wouldn't have odometer checked anyway.

>I drive every day to my mail box which is on my land with my EV.

yes.  So what?
Any sane mileage based tax law isn't going to be 100% fair to every human on 
earth.
Get over it.



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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Roland via EV]

   
Here in Montana, there are fuel pumps for using in vehicles for off roads 
driving meaning country, state and federal.  You can cross them, but cannot 
drive them. 

 

The people that are using diesel fuel, the fuel is red color.  The ranchers 
that have old cap oil wells on there land which have been turn over to them by 
the oil companies, uses this fuel with additives added to run there equipment.  

 

I drive every day to my mail box which is on my land with my EV.  

 

Roland 

 

 


- Original Message - 

From: John Lussmyer 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; 
Roland 

Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2015 9:11 AM

Subject: Re: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the 
battery.



On Sat May 30 07:58:46 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org 
said:
>This will depend on what type of speedometer you have.  I am starting to 
>replace the analog instruments with digital.  The new digital has a external 
>control where you can reset the mileage to any thing you want.

Yes, and what % of vehicle drivers can/will do that?  (Likely, FAR fewer than 
there are EV drivers.)

>If you towing a vehicle that is displaying increase mileage on a odometer with 
>out any energy input, this should not be tax.  

Not many cars do that, and even then, it would be a tiny % of your miles. 
(unless your car is a real lemon.)

> Also no federal and state tax on private roads.

So, you are buying Gas that doesn't have Road Tax for your private road 
driving?  How?


--

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http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Roland wrote
>Also no federal and state tax on private roads.


So I guess that means that there is no tax on roads 'Not maintained by County'?

Rush
Tucson AZ


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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sat May 30 07:58:46 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>This will depend on what type of speedometer you have.  I am starting to 
>replace the analog instruments with digital.  The new digital has a external 
>control where you can reset the mileage to any thing you want.

Yes, and what % of vehicle drivers can/will do that?  (Likely, FAR fewer than 
there are EV drivers.)

>If you towing a vehicle that is displaying increase mileage on a odometer with 
>out any energy input, this should not be tax.  

Not many cars do that, and even then, it would be a tiny % of your miles. 
(unless your car is a real lemon.)

> Also no federal and state tax on private roads.

So, you are buying Gas that doesn't have Road Tax for your private road 
driving?  How?


--

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http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Roland via EV]

   
This will depend on what type of speedometer you have.  I am starting to 
replace the analog instruments with digital.  The new digital has a external 
control where you can reset the mileage to any thing you want.  

 

Also you can have it only monitor ON MOTOR TIME, meaning only display the miles 
that the motor is under power using energy the same as a ENGINE RUN TIME that 
is using gasoline.  Does not monitor the miles during COAST RUN TIME.  This is 
a simple control circuit by installing a micro on the accelerator control. 

 

I also have separate instruments that monitor the ON MOTOR TIME, COAST RUN 
TIME,  and AWAY TIME from home.  

 

If you towing a vehicle that is displaying increase mileage on a odometer with 
out any energy input, this should not be tax.  Also no federal and state tax on 
private roads. 

 

Roland

 

 

 




- Original Message - 

From: Jay Summet via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2015 7:21 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's 
the battery.



-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 05/30/2015 02:00 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> On Fri May 29 16:19:59 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 
> said:
>> Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?
> 
> There's this wonderful new invention that most cars have in them.
> It's called an Odometer.

I would much prefer having to get an "official odometer check" every
year (even paying $15 for it, like an emmisisons check) than have to
pay the current $200 a year flat fee that the state of Georgia has
just legislated.

(And I like the idea of a yearly visit much better than having to
carry around a GPS tracker ;>)

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Paul Dove via EV]

I don't believe it's illegal for private companies. It is however illegal for 
the government to do it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 30, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Ben Goren  wrote:
> 
>> On May 30, 2015, at 4:48 AM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You 
>> need a court order
> 
> Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law enforcement 
> agencies that work with the NSA on "parallel construction"? How about the 
> marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect it and then 
> turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money?
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Jay Summet via EV]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 05/30/2015 02:00 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> On Fri May 29 16:19:59 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>> Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?
> 
> There's this wonderful new invention that most cars have in them.
> It's called an Odometer.

I would much prefer having to get an "official odometer check" every
year (even paying $15 for it, like an emmisisons check) than have to
pay the current $200 a year flat fee that the state of Georgia has
just legislated.

(And I like the idea of a yearly visit much better than having to
carry around a GPS tracker ;>)

Jay
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1

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SnQAn2yimjO4oK+5BfzgA7Wk2P6VZ2lq
=0yZi
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 30, 2015, at 4:48 AM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

> Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You 
> need a court order

Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law enforcement 
agencies that work with the NSA on "parallel construction"? How about the 
marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect it and then 
turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money?
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Paul Dove via EV]

Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You 
need a court order 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 29, 2015, at 9:17 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 29 May 2015 at 18:19, Paul Dove via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?
> 
> I'm probably going to sound tinfoil-hattish here, but how do you know that 
> your EV isn't already telling its manufacturer how far you drove last year?  
> If you have a Tesla, it almost certainly is; and if you have a Leaf, I 
> wouldn't be surprised if it is.  If I'm not mistaken, and someone correct me 
> if I am, both of these cars have full time mobile data connections back to 
> their "masters."  All in the name of "product improvement," mind you.
> 
> The car knows its own VIN.  Do you see any reason to think that if your DMV 
> asks for that information, and maybe offers a little incentive to cover 
> their costs, Tesla and/or Nissan would say no?  I don't.
> 
> "This isn't your father's Oldsmobile."  Indeed it isn't.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 30 May 2015 at 2:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> The Leaf console asks you to agree to their communications system,
> which requires setting up an account of sorts.  If you don't agree, do
> they send the info anyway? 

Good question!

I've found that not registering an Android phone doesn't stop it from 
trading data regularly with someone or something, presumably Google.  I've 
never been able to find out the details of this exchange, but I know it goes 
on because I use pay-as-you-go data.  I watched the kb - and the $$ - add 
up.

Suspending over 2 dozen background apps put a stop to the unsettling 
constant chatter, at the expense of some features I don't really care about 
anyway.  

I wonder if an equivalent "neutering" is possible for the Leaf's spyware.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

You could be right.  The Leaf console asks you to agree to their 
communications system, which requires setting up an account of sorts.  
If you don't agree, do they send the info anyway?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 29-May-15 7:17:30 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales 
Better? It's the battery.



On 29 May 2015 at 18:19, Paul Dove via EV wrote:


 Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?


I'm probably going to sound tinfoil-hattish here, but how do you know 
that
your EV isn't already telling its manufacturer how far you drove last 
year?

If you have a Tesla, it almost certainly is; and if you have a Leaf, I
wouldn't be surprised if it is.  If I'm not mistaken, and someone 
correct me
if I am, both of these cars have full time mobile data connections back 
to

their "masters."  All in the name of "product improvement," mind you.

The car knows its own VIN.  Do you see any reason to think that if your 
DMV

asks for that information, and maybe offers a little incentive to cover
their costs, Tesla and/or Nissan would say no?  I don't.

"This isn't your father's Oldsmobile."  Indeed it isn't.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 29 May 2015 at 18:19, Paul Dove via EV wrote:

> Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?

I'm probably going to sound tinfoil-hattish here, but how do you know that 
your EV isn't already telling its manufacturer how far you drove last year?  
If you have a Tesla, it almost certainly is; and if you have a Leaf, I 
wouldn't be surprised if it is.  If I'm not mistaken, and someone correct me 
if I am, both of these cars have full time mobile data connections back to 
their "masters."  All in the name of "product improvement," mind you.

The car knows its own VIN.  Do you see any reason to think that if your DMV 
asks for that information, and maybe offers a little incentive to cover 
their costs, Tesla and/or Nissan would say no?  I don't.

"This isn't your father's Oldsmobile."  Indeed it isn't.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Many states require a bi-yearly smog or safety check for vehicles,
in many cases the ODO reading is recorded at the time of test.
For insurance purpose, you also need to issue the mileage when insuring the
vehicle since premium fees are based on declared usage (miles per year).
So, it is not uncommon to pay based on usage, the whole reason why the fuel
was taxed, to account for the amount of use. With EV it becomes harder to
distinguish between home and vehicular use - similar to the problem with
home heating oil being essentially diesel and also farm use diesel being
off-road, so untaxed and some creative folks running that in their cars,
so color additives to the fuel allow detection of non-road (untaxed) fuel
in on-road vehicles. Tagging electricity is a little harder if you can
plug into any outlet in the home to refuel your car.
So, they try to tag onto something that is already in place, to levy taxes
for the maintenance and construction of the freeways (all other roads get
overwhelmingly funded via property taxes, whether you own a car or not,
whether you drive or not - you pay for the roads in your town.)
Other countries have tried various things, from paying for certain stretches
of road (similar to toll) or per mile driven - the "gas tax" is still one
of the best ways to put the burden where the pollution (=part of the cost)
is generated, otherwise it becomes unequal between gas guzzlers and sippers,
but that is a whole political process, so I think we should avoid that.
Lets just say that miles driven can be recorded with existing means (ODOmeter)
and thus there is a basis for a pay-for-how-far-you-drive

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 4:20 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's 
the battery.

Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?

They will have to make it a blanket fee that's added to your tag to work I 
believe

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 27, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Al Lumas via EV  wrote:
> 
> The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax on each 
> mile you drive your electric vehicle.
> To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) has 
> already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are considering 
> it.
> Al
> 
> At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>> You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV.  
>>  If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life the 
>> EV may save you  $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the  the cost of 
>> fuel rises.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Paul Dove via EV wrote:

Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?


All car already have odometers, and many states already require annual 
inspections. One way is to simply record the mileage at each year's 
annual inspection when you renew your registration.


But since the *real* reason for these fees is to penalize EVs and raise 
revenue, they will probably over-estimate the annual mileage, and bill 
everyone accordingly.

--
The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
there before. -- Roy Spence
--
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Fri May 29 16:19:59 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?

There's this wonderful new invention that most cars have in them.  It's called 
an Odometer.



--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Paul Dove via EV]

Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove?

They will have to make it a blanket fee that's added to your tag to work I 
believe

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 27, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Al Lumas via EV  wrote:
> 
> The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax on each 
> mile you drive your electric vehicle.
> To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) has 
> already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are considering 
> it.
> Al
> 
> At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>> You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV.  
>>  If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life the 
>> EV may save you  $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the  the cost of 
>> fuel rises.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Michael Ross via EV]

I don't think you mentioned MPGe before.  WIki and the internet are pretty
informative about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent

Lots of links in the biblio area.

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 12:08 PM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> Yes they are inefficient. The typical number I've seen is around 20%.
> This,
> and the fact that an ice continues running while stopped at a traffic light
> but an electric motor doesn't (unless the vehicle has an automatic
> transmission) are of course the main reasons for reduced energy use by EVs,
> and why energy cost per mile is so much lower for EVs.
>
> But what I am asking about is the Mile Per Gallon equivalent, MPGe, rating
> given to ELECTRIC vehicles. Specifically, why if I use the 33.7 kWh/gal
> conversion factor does the MPGe for my car come out so high compared to EPA
> numbers for manufactured EVs?  I think it must be the difference in driving
> cycles, but wondered if they use a different method of estimating MPGe.
> Would be interesting to see what people get for MPGe for their Leaf,
> Mitsubishi i, or Volt (in all electric) using the 33.7 conversion versus
> what type of driving cycle is typical for them.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675845.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
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A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[tomw via EV]

Yes they are inefficient. The typical number I've seen is around 20%.  This,
and the fact that an ice continues running while stopped at a traffic light
but an electric motor doesn't (unless the vehicle has an automatic
transmission) are of course the main reasons for reduced energy use by EVs,
and why energy cost per mile is so much lower for EVs. 

But what I am asking about is the Mile Per Gallon equivalent, MPGe, rating
given to ELECTRIC vehicles. Specifically, why if I use the 33.7 kWh/gal
conversion factor does the MPGe for my car come out so high compared to EPA
numbers for manufactured EVs?  I think it must be the difference in driving
cycles, but wondered if they use a different method of estimating MPGe. 
Would be interesting to see what people get for MPGe for their Leaf,
Mitsubishi i, or Volt (in all electric) using the 33.7 conversion versus
what type of driving cycle is typical for them.



--
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Paul Dove via EV]

There may be 33.7 kWh in a gallon of gasoline but ICE's are very inefficient. 
I'd multiply that by 0.15 to compare with an EV. Or am I thinking of this 
incorrectly.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 29, 2015, at 9:26 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know how EPA estimates miles per kWh?  I am familiar with their
> standard test cycle conditions.  Do they just quote the miles per unit
> energy based on what they use during that test?  I ask because if I use the
> D.O.E. conversion of 33.7 kWh per gallon of gas my car has averaged about
> 170 MPGe over the last 5 1/2 years (excluding charger losses).  That is much
> higher than EPA figures for any EV.  I would expect my car to be similar to
> a Mitsubishi i since they are similar weight and size, so wonder if the
> difference is due to difference in the test cycle and my typical driving
> cycle or if they use some method for the estimate other than the 33.7
> kWh/gallon.  Their test cycle has a lot of accelerations/decelerations
> compared to time spent driving at constant speed compared to my typical
> cycle, which I expect would reduce the miles per unit energy for their cycle
> compared to mine, but mine seems more typical for the U.S. unless you drive
> in heavy traffic in a city most of the time.  Has anyone used the 33.7
> conversion to estimate MPGe for their Leaf or i?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
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> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[tomw via EV]

Does anyone know how EPA estimates miles per kWh?  I am familiar with their
standard test cycle conditions.  Do they just quote the miles per unit
energy based on what they use during that test?  I ask because if I use the
D.O.E. conversion of 33.7 kWh per gallon of gas my car has averaged about
170 MPGe over the last 5 1/2 years (excluding charger losses).  That is much
higher than EPA figures for any EV.  I would expect my car to be similar to
a Mitsubishi i since they are similar weight and size, so wonder if the
difference is due to difference in the test cycle and my typical driving
cycle or if they use some method for the estimate other than the 33.7
kWh/gallon.  Their test cycle has a lot of accelerations/decelerations
compared to time spent driving at constant speed compared to my typical
cycle, which I expect would reduce the miles per unit energy for their cycle
compared to mine, but mine seems more typical for the U.S. unless you drive
in heavy traffic in a city most of the time.  Has anyone used the 33.7
conversion to estimate MPGe for their Leaf or i?



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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Hi Jamie,

There were no details on how CR tested the pack and what they recharged 
to.  Their overall draw was 3.15 miles/kwhr.  I am thinking is that 
these are typically ICE drivers and they may have been a little heavy 
footed as compared to an experienced EV driver.  Also, they are going 
through their set drive schedule. YMMV and we see that it does.  At 
least there is another established independent frame of reference 
besides EPA with a documented way of testing.


On 5/27/2015 7:00 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:
We get around 3.3 to 4.5 miles/kWh in colder weather and 4 to 5.5 
miles/kWh in warmer weather (indicated). With roughly 20kWh usable 
from the 24kWh pack, that's about 66-90 miles in cold weather and 
80-110 in warm weather at 100% charge for our mix of city and highway 
driving, generally in Eco mode (but with full power always available 
from the accelerator pedal when needed).


Based on the Consumer Report number you quoted, it would seem that 
their experience is a bit different than ours. What model year did 
they test, and at what charge percentage? 


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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Jamie K via EV]

On 5/27/15 1:15 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

I used 75 miles as the range because that is what Consumers Report is
currently reporting and I'd rather use an "independent" testing number
especially if reported range drops in winter.


Sure, as we've all experienced, the ranges of vehicles (fossil-fuel or 
electric) are typically greater in warmer weather.


It's fine to use something other than the standard EPA range rating when 
discussing EV ranges. But you might want to mention what you're using up 
front since folks will generally be comparing vehicles using the actual 
EPA standard.


BTW, the EPA rating itself is a bit conservative compared to our LEAF 
experience so far. Our 2013 LEAF regularly gets higher than EPA rated 
range in the summer, lower in in winter.


We get around 3.3 to 4.5 miles/kWh in colder weather and 4 to 5.5 
miles/kWh in warmer weather (indicated). With roughly 20kWh usable from 
the 24kWh pack, that's about 66-90 miles in cold weather and 80-110 in 
warm weather at 100% charge for our mix of city and highway driving, 
generally in Eco mode (but with full power always available from the 
accelerator pedal when needed).


Based on the Consumer Report number you quoted, it would seem that their 
experience is a bit different than ours. What model year did they test, 
and at what charge percentage?



 >>Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF
refresh for 2017. <<

Seeing the reported ranges increase from the pre-announcements  is very
encouraging.


Yes indeed.


 >>IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the
current model LEAF batteries. <<
When I divide the Model S pack of 85 kwhr by the an estimated weight of
roughly 550 kg for the total pack, I get a figure of 154 whr/kg. Granted
that this weight includes the pack structure and wiring etc. and is an
estimate from an online forum.  If I add about a 1/3 for this weight,
the energy density about doubles over a comparative LiFePO6 at around 90
whr/kg.   When seeing the Jeff Dahn video of doubling to tripling of
energy densities, it puts the above into doubt.


A quick search shows the Model S battery pack referred to as 240 Wh/kg 
and the LEAF at 140 on various internet reports. If those are accurate, 
then the Tesla Model S pack would be about 1.7 times the energy density 
of today's LEAF's pack, so not quite double.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



On 5/27/2015 12:36 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:


On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.


Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The
old rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended
80% charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry
Nissan removed the option to automatically charge to 80%.


Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the
current model LEAF batteries.


Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement
packs for existing LEAFs would be a great option.

Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF
refresh for 2017.

Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 27 May 2015 at 11:30, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV.

But that's the whole point.  Many vehicle buyers don't!  They think only of 
the up front cost of the vehicle.  

There are many reasons that someone might have that short-sighted outlook.  
Maybe we think the reasons make sense, maybe we don't, but that's a totally 
pointless (and off topic) discussion.  

With education you can change some of these people, but not many. For most 
of them, paycheck-to-paycheck is a life habit, and you can't change it.   If 
you want them to buy EVs, you offer them EVs that serve their perceived 
needs (low purchase cost), or you write them off as EV buyers.

My point was, since EVs have trouble competing with ICEVs on purchase price 
and (at least for some time yet) on utility, let's brainstorm some ways that 
EVs, and ONLY EVs, can be super-convenient for their owners.  Then maybe 
they can compete on convenience and exclusivity.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

I used 75 miles as the range because that is what Consumers Report is 
currently reporting and I'd rather use an "independent" testing number 
especially if reported range drops in winter.


>>Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that 
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public 
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF 
refresh for 2017. <<


Seeing the reported ranges increase from the pre-announcements  is very 
encouraging.


>>IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the 
current model LEAF batteries. <<
When I divide the Model S pack of 85 kwhr by the an estimated weight of 
roughly 550 kg for the total pack, I get a figure of 154 whr/kg.  
Granted that this weight includes the pack structure and wiring etc. and 
is an estimate from an online forum.  If I add about a 1/3 for this 
weight, the energy density about doubles over a comparative LiFePO6 at 
around 90 whr/kg.   When seeing the Jeff Dahn video of doubling to 
tripling of energy densities, it puts the above into doubt.


On 5/27/2015 12:36 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:


On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.


Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The 
old rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended 
80% charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry 
Nissan removed the option to automatically charge to 80%.



Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the 
current model LEAF batteries.



Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement 
packs for existing LEAFs would be a great option.


Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that 
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public 
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF 
refresh for 2017.


Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman wrote:

And don't forget the battery replacement cost - perhaps after 10 years or 70K 
miles?


Ben Goren via EV wrote:

It seems that batteries are lasting at least as long as ICE engines and 
transmissions, and replacement new batteries are guaranteed to be much cheaper 
than replacement new engines or transmissions.


It's too soon to know how long the batteries will really last. All we 
have are projections.


But we *do* know that the EPA requires that the batteries be covered 
under warranty for 8 years or 100,000 miles. That's good for consumers; 
but maybe bad for the car companies that make mistakes and so have to 
"eat" the warranty replacement costs.


Nissan already had a case of this with their early Leaf packs. It's not 
encouraging that they worked hard to weasel out of covering them.


Another worrisome thing: The batteries in all the auto company produced 
EVs are custom. Will a replacement pack even be *available* in 10 years? 
Remember the auto company produced EVs from around the year 2000? 
Batteries are totally unavailable for all of them.

--
The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
there before. -- Roy Spence
--
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Jamie K via EV]

On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.


Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The old 
rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended 80% 
charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry Nissan 
removed the option to automatically charge to 80%.



Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S?  Ans: ~800
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the current 
model LEAF batteries.



Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement packs 
for existing LEAFs would be a great option.


Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that 
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public 
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF 
refresh for 2017.


Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 27, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> And don't forget the battery replacement cost  - perhaps after 10 years or 
> 70K miles?

It seems that batteries are lasting at least as long as ICE engines and 
transmissions, and replacement new batteries are guaranteed to be much cheaper 
than replacement new engines or transmissions.

That's two expensive components in an ICE you have to worry about, and only one 
in the EV. EVs are already ahead.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Let's talk about the bell curve.  There are early adopters (us) who are 
excited and ready to buy or build an EV.  There are some less risky 
adopters who are jumping in, too, as is evident from the rising sales 
numbers.  But the vast majority - the hump in the bell curve are 
waiting.


Waiting for what?  It doesn't really matter what they say - as you can 
see there are a number of various opinions and statements from people.  
The only thing that matters is that they are followers.  They won't do 
something until they feel like everyone else is doing it.  That's true 
for any product, behavior, etc. in humanity.  When the masses start 
catching on there'll be a huge woosh - the rising edge of the bell 
curve.


With cell phones, I was part of the masses - not an early adopter.  I 
had my reasons - poor voice quality, too many dropped calls.  They were 
legit reasons.  But the underlying reason is I had a land line and it 
worked well enough and I didn't want to have to deal with a new set of 
issues or problems.  Why rock the boat?  When "everyone" had a cell 
phone, I got one too.


To finish the bell curve, there the last stragglers.  They will keep 
their old technology (or behavior) until they are forced out.  Can't buy 
a replacement part, product, etc.  Ridiculed for wearing bell bottom 
pants.  Meanwhile, a new technology is already on the rise with its new 
set of early adopters :)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Peter Eckhoff via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 27-May-15 9:03:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales 
Better? It's the battery.


I just finished reading the article and I came away with the idea that 
the author could have substituted personal computer for battery, or 
laptop for battery, or any of the other technological wonders that only 
existed in the minds of Buck Roger / Star Trek fans.  The question has 
always been one of when do I jump in and trade my abacus for a PC or PC 
for a laptop, or slower model for a faster model?


It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.  
The 2017 model of the Bolt, Leaf and Model E are supposed to have 
ranges of around 200 miles.  Do I buy a Leaf today and borrow an ICE to 
reach an Atlantic Ocean beach?  Do I wait until 2017 when I could reach 
a beach with a newer EV?  Do I wait until 2018 when some poor driver 
has his or her car "totaled" and I can buy that pack for dimes on the 
dollar?


Have you ever noticed how some of these titles are inflammatory? The 
author could have gone to:

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/
and written how EV sales are rising rapidly and we would be replying 
to:


Re:[EVDL] Design News: Why are Electric Car Sales Rising Rapidly?

If he had plotted out the sales figures he would have seen EV sales 
taking off even in the face of relatively low gasoline prices and so-so 
economic activity:

   USA Worldwide
March 2015: 10,341  41,988
March 2014:  9,650  24,267
March 2013:   7982   N/A
March 2012:   3815   N/A
March 2011:906   N/A

He does have a point about the batteries but my guess is that he wrote 
the article in a trollish manner for clicks and views.  I think he gets 
it but he does have to put food on the table.


Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume 
wise and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if 
that pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S?  
Ans: ~800 miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in 
range as well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina 
starting point.  Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am 
I just wishful thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 
model Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to 
drop in anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to 
trade up to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


Hopefully some of this takes away some of that "in your face" -ness of 
the article.

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 27, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> Solar at this time, where I live with low cost electrons (<$0.10 /kWh), is
> not a great investment without subsidies.

That's damned cheap electricity. And, at utility scales, the only thing cheaper 
than solar these days is coal. Given that solar has no maintenance and 
operating costs worth mentioning, it's hardly surprising that solar is a good 
investment for individuals with capital; your capital costs are in roughly the 
same ballpark as that of the utilities, but you don't have to pay all those CEO 
salaries.

CEOs, of course, want you to keep paying their salaries, which is why the 
utilities are trying to jigger their rate schedules such that, no matter how 
many panels you put on your rooftop, you still pay nearly as much per month to 
them. But those days will be very short-lived...utility-scale batteries from 
Tesla are already cheaper than natural gas peaking plants, and their amortized 
cost is competitive over the warranty life of the battery for homeowners, too.

Already today, with both solar and battery prices in freefall for the 
foreseeable future.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

I just finished reading the article and I came away with the idea that 
the author could have substituted personal computer for battery, or 
laptop for battery, or any of the other technological wonders that only 
existed in the minds of Buck Roger / Star Trek fans.  The question has 
always been one of when do I jump in and trade my abacus for a PC or PC 
for a laptop, or slower model for a faster model?


It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.  
The 2017 model of the Bolt, Leaf and Model E are supposed to have ranges 
of around 200 miles.  Do I buy a Leaf today and borrow an ICE to reach 
an Atlantic Ocean beach?  Do I wait until 2017 when I could reach a 
beach with a newer EV?  Do I wait until 2018 when some poor driver has 
his or her car "totaled" and I can buy that pack for dimes on the dollar?


Have you ever noticed how some of these titles are inflammatory? The 
author could have gone to:

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/
and written how EV sales are rising rapidly and we would be replying to:

Re:[EVDL] Design News: Why are Electric Car Sales Rising Rapidly?

If he had plotted out the sales figures he would have seen EV sales 
taking off even in the face of relatively low gasoline prices and so-so 
economic activity:

   USA Worldwide
March 2015: 10,341  41,988
March 2014:  9,650  24,267
March 2013:   7982   N/A
March 2012:   3815   N/A
March 2011:906   N/A

He does have a point about the batteries but my guess is that he wrote 
the article in a trollish manner for clicks and views.  I think he gets 
it but he does have to put food on the table.


Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise 
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that 
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S?  Ans: ~800 
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as 
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.  
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful 
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model 
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in 
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up 
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


Hopefully some of this takes away some of that "in your face" -ness of 
the article.

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

And don't forget the battery replacement cost  - perhaps after 10 years 
or 70K miles?  I think these hurdles will diminish but they are real for 
now.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Al Lumas via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 27-May-15 8:52:02 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales 
Better? It's the battery.


The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax on 
each mile you drive your electric vehicle.
To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) 
has already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are 
considering it.

Al

At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own 
an EV.   If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, 
over its life the EV may save you  $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot 
and the  the cost of fuel rises.


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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Al Lumas via EV]

The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax 
on each mile you drive your electric vehicle.
To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) 
has already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are 
considering it.

Al

At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own 
an EV.   If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, 
over its life the EV may save you  $15k, $20k more if you drive a 
lot and the  the cost of fuel rises.


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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think EVs might be a better deal (at least the smaller ones like iMIEV
and Leaf) than solar arrays.  Solar needs subsidies to be a good economic
deal for the owner, hte going rate for electrons makes a difference too.

You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV.
  If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life
the EV may save you  $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the  the cost
of fuel rises.  THere is a lot od foregone maintenance as well with EVs.

Solar at this time, where I live with low cost electrons (<$0.10 /kWh), is
not a great investment without subsidies.  Those are threatening to go
away.  But my 2.5 year old system, might pay back like a decent dividend
stock - but only because I got 30% back from the fed and 35% from the state
of NC.  Without the subsidy, it would be more like barely keeping up with
inflation and it better give me 20+ years of trouble free service.

Of course, YMMV; but OEM EVs, if you are the right use case, may be a good
deal.



On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 10:11 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> “/The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the
> instant torque, zero emissions, "refuel" at home  - just don't seem to be
> all that important to most people.  Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs
> have gotten better at a lot of these things./”
>
> They sure have! Ice powered vehicles today are very reliable, quiet, and
> powerful compared to a few decades ago.  If maintained properly they can
> remain in service for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles.  You can
> purchase a used one with 30k miles on it for less than half the new cost
> and
> expect to drive it for at least 100k miles relatively trouble free.  That
> is
> very hard for today’s EVs to compete with.  I don’t expect the market for
> EVs to increase much until they can offer similar performance and price.
>
> “/They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and
> see
> only the up-front cost./”
>
> That is very much my experience.  Solar panels are a great example.  I live
> in an area that historically has had around 200 sunny days a year.  Solar
> panel cost has dropped to less than ¼ what I paid in 2008, making return on
> investment very short here.  For years I’ve had people remark that I am
> “lucky” that I don’t have to buy fuel, to which I respond that I just paid
> up front, they could do the same.  But they look only at up-front costs,
> and
> can’t get themselves to spend that money even though they could afford it
> and the investment would pay for itself in less than 10 years.  Those same
> people will purchase the most expensive new car they can afford, an
> "investment" that will depreciate quickly, but that they will derive more
> pleasure and status from.  I think that is a big part of Tesla's success, a
> sexy, cool, high status car.
>
> But that is for the people who have the discretionary spending.  Most here
> don't. For them its a "no-brainer" to buy that used ice car and drive it
> for
> more than 100k miles rather than a more expensive EV that has limited range
> and requires purchase of an EVSE.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675788.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[tomw via EV]

“/The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the
instant torque, zero emissions, "refuel" at home  - just don't seem to be
all that important to most people.  Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs
have gotten better at a lot of these things./”

They sure have! Ice powered vehicles today are very reliable, quiet, and
powerful compared to a few decades ago.  If maintained properly they can
remain in service for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles.  You can
purchase a used one with 30k miles on it for less than half the new cost and
expect to drive it for at least 100k miles relatively trouble free.  That is
very hard for today’s EVs to compete with.  I don’t expect the market for
EVs to increase much until they can offer similar performance and price.

“/They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see
only the up-front cost./”

That is very much my experience.  Solar panels are a great example.  I live
in an area that historically has had around 200 sunny days a year.  Solar
panel cost has dropped to less than ¼ what I paid in 2008, making return on
investment very short here.  For years I’ve had people remark that I am
“lucky” that I don’t have to buy fuel, to which I respond that I just paid
up front, they could do the same.  But they look only at up-front costs, and
can’t get themselves to spend that money even though they could afford it
and the investment would pay for itself in less than 10 years.  Those same
people will purchase the most expensive new car they can afford, an
"investment" that will depreciate quickly, but that they will derive more
pleasure and status from.  I think that is a big part of Tesla's success, a
sexy, cool, high status car.  

But that is for the people who have the discretionary spending.  Most here
don't. For them its a "no-brainer" to buy that used ice car and drive it for
more than 100k miles rather than a more expensive EV that has limited range
and requires purchase of an EVSE.




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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Ben Goren via EV]

On May 26, 2015, at 11:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Here's one: transparent inductive charging.

If we're dreaming, it's a wonderful dream. I don't think it's a very realistic 
dream, but it's certainly wonderful.

As a bonus...going from inductive charging while parking to inductive charging 
on select stretches of highway wouldn't be that big a deal. It's even something 
that could be very beneficial without being close to a perfect solution. Just 
do grab the back of the envelope...if a typical car is consuming 300 Wh/mi at 
60 MPH, that's 18 kW / car. Round up to 20 kW for losses and to make the math 
easier. Even if a roadway could only deliver 5 kW / car, less than many of 
today's in-home chargers, that still extends range by 25%. Your 300-mile-range 
car almost becomes a 400-mile-range car. 

But, honestly?

I think EVs are going to get a _lot_ more popular once 200 miles is the range 
of the base model econobox and 300 miles is not uncommon in top-of-the-line 
models. Rapid charging infrastructure or no. You can put 300 miles of range in 
a 300 Wh/mi car in 8 hours at 220 V / 50 A. Almost nobody drives 300 miles in a 
day, and almost everybody has the car parked at home at least 8 hours a day. 
With even minimal rapid-charging infrastructure, such a car is a direct 
replacement for today's ICE vehicle -- even for vacation road trips. Drive ~250 
miles; four hours into the trip and it's time for a break. Even if it takes 
half an hour to recharge, that's not a problem; most people would be taking 
almost that long just to stretch their legs or maybe grab a bite to eat. And 
when the break is over, you're ready for another four hours of driving before 
you plug into the hotel's charger for the night. If the rapid charging station 
has a restaurant, so much the better. Even today, just look at
  how you automatically expect the middle-of-nowhere gas stations along the 
freeway to have a restaurant of some sort.

We're already expecting the next generation of EVs to be at that 200 mile 
range, and Teslas are already at that 300 mile range.

Which tells me that the only _real_ challenge to EV adoption...is sticker 
price. When the price premium for an EV is comparable to what the price premium 
used to be for an automatic transmission over a standard, that's it.

We can even see a direct parallel in very recent history: hybrid vehicles. They 
used to be much more expensive than their battery-less counterparts; today, 
they're only a bit more expensive and it seems like every other car on the road 
these days is an hybrid -- even a number of SUVs.

Until the past couple months or so, I was decidedly pessimistic about our 
chances for surviving the end of cheap oil. I still don't think it'll be a walk 
in the park...but solar is already cheaper for utilities than anything else but 
coal, and Tesla's utility batteries are already cheaper than any other form of 
peaking production. That means that all kinds of money is now going to shift 
away from fossil fuels and into solar and batteries, simply because the 
utilities that don't do so are going to lose out to those that do. And, more 
importantly, because the CEOs will want to pocket the savings, themselves. That 
will, in turn, _very_ rapidly drive down prices for solar and batteries for the 
rest of us...quickly to the point that the utilities themselves won't be able 
to compete with local generation and ICE vehicles won't be able to compete with 
EVs.

Imagine that, for a moment, so long as we're dreaming -- you've got an EV with 
a ~120 kWh pack and a ~400 mile freeway range. Next to your water heater (or 
wherever) is a ~400 kWh battery that both serves as a "dump pack" for your EV 
for rapid charging as well as all your other electricity needs. If you don't 
drive, you can go a week or two without sunlight depending on how much of an 
energy hog you are. And your roof is covered with enough solar panels that, 
even in the dead of winter, they'll collect enough that your batteries won't 
actually run out.

I think most any American would consider something like that a very desirable 
luxury life...and I do believe we might actually, after all, be on track for me 
to live long enough to see something like it come to pass.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[John Blair via EV]

On May 26, 2015, at 11:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match?  


David,

Already there for me. Nearest gas station is 20 minutes away from us in West 
Sonoma County, California.  If I am just using one of my EV's locally, I have 
to allocate an hour to go get gas.  When people ask me how long it takes to 
fill my car, I tell them about 30 seconds.  I get out, plug it in and go into 
the house.  It is full the next time I need it.  Also no gasoline smell when 
you are dressed up.  In our little town of 1200 I am seeing more and more 
Leaf's, Model S's, Smart Cars, RAV4-EV's (1st and 2nd generation), and others.  
I saw my first Spark in town yesterday. I am sure that convenience is part of 
that for us.


John

---
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Occidental, California
(about an hour north of the Bay Area)
http://www.jgblairphoto.com - general photography
http://www.johngblairstudio.com - commercial and stock photography
http://www.johngblair.com - author website

 




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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Paul Dove via EV]

We are still in the innovator stage that's all. No speculation needed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations


Sent from my iPad

> On May 27, 2015, at 1:37 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 26 May 2015 at 6:50, tomw via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Plus today with instant everything, putting up with inconvenience is
>> sooo yesterday.
> 
> I think you're on to something here.  
> 
> The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the instant 
> torque, zero emissions, "refuel" at home  - just don't seem to be all that 
> important to most people.  Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs have 
> gotten better at a lot of these things.  (Who would have thought it?)
> 
> I think it's fair to say that consumers buy their vehicles for both rational 
> and emotional reasons.
> 
> The rational factors are easy - cost, utility, convenience.  
> 
> EVs are going to lose on utilty, mostly because of their limited range.  
> 
> They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see 
> only the up-front cost.  Without aggressive subsidies - and those are 
> subject to political whim - EVs are in trouble.
> 
> Convenience?  At the moment, how EVs fare depends on which you consider more 
> convenient, going to a gas station or remembering to plug it in.  
> 
> But something else might enter here.  Consumers, especially wealthy ones, 
> perceive themselves as busy busy busy even when they actually have lots of 
> leisure.  They embrace convenience and are willing to pay for it.   I think 
> you're right that EVs will succeed as a vehicle class at least partly on how 
> universally convenient they are.
> 
> One obvious way to increase EVs' convenience is for ICEVs convenience to 
> fall hard and fast.  
> 
> Buying fuel was hugely inconvenient in some areas of the US in the mid-
> 1970s.  In many areas, shortage-driven panic buying created blocks-long, 
> hours-long waiting lines at filling stations.  College students earned 
> pocket money sitting in impatient and busy suits' cars, waiting for their 5 
> or 10 gallon gasoline allotment.  
> 
> For many reasons, I don't think that that particular scenario is likely to 
> happen again.  Fuel prices will eventually rise again, but that alone isn't 
> enough to make large numbers of people desert ICEVs for EVs.  Look what 
> people are willing to pay for gasoline in Europe.  
> 
> So, let's think of some ways that EVs might become radically more 
> convenient, ways that ICEVs simply can't match.  
> 
> Here's one: transparent inductive charging.  Your garage has a standardized 
> inductive charger in the floor; you park the car and it fuels itself without 
> any active participation from you.  (I know about the cost and efficiency 
> issues.  C'mon, dream with me for a minute. ;-)
> 
> What if building codes required every new house or major renovation to 
> include a universal, standards-defined inductive EV charger in the garage 
> floor?  Maybe you could include a square-area threshold at first, so that 
> they'd mostly go into more expensive houses where the cost would be a 
> trivial fraction.  Mass production would eventually drive down the cost, and 
> the square-area threshold could be lowered.
> 
> Public parking lots might also be reqired to provide some minimum percentage 
> of EV slots with this charging.  Your EV could automatically sip electrons 
> while you shopped.  The EV would have a unique ID tag.  Each month the cost 
> would be billed to your credit card.  You'd never touch a gas pump or a 
> charger cord.
> 
> Ads for compatible EVs could crow, "No more smelly gas stations ever, and 
> you never have to plug it in!"
> 
> Is this scheme really practical?  Probably not. Passing legislation is a 
> high bar in the US these days, so public money for this would be hard to 
> get.  Still, I've seen additions to building codes that add costs for 
> builders go through.  IMO there's a faint glimmer of hope for getting 
> something like this into the codes - at least in some states.
> 
> Something to think about.  And anyway, we're dreaming here. ;-)
> 
> Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match?  
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 26 May 2015 at 6:50, tomw via EV wrote:

> Plus today with instant everything, putting up with inconvenience is
> sooo yesterday. 

I think you're on to something here.  

The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the instant 
torque, zero emissions, "refuel" at home  - just don't seem to be all that 
important to most people.  Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs have 
gotten better at a lot of these things.  (Who would have thought it?)

I think it's fair to say that consumers buy their vehicles for both rational 
and emotional reasons.

The rational factors are easy - cost, utility, convenience.  

EVs are going to lose on utilty, mostly because of their limited range.  

They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see 
only the up-front cost.  Without aggressive subsidies - and those are 
subject to political whim - EVs are in trouble.

Convenience?  At the moment, how EVs fare depends on which you consider more 
convenient, going to a gas station or remembering to plug it in.  

But something else might enter here.  Consumers, especially wealthy ones, 
perceive themselves as busy busy busy even when they actually have lots of 
leisure.  They embrace convenience and are willing to pay for it.   I think 
you're right that EVs will succeed as a vehicle class at least partly on how 
universally convenient they are.

One obvious way to increase EVs' convenience is for ICEVs convenience to 
fall hard and fast.  

Buying fuel was hugely inconvenient in some areas of the US in the mid-
1970s.  In many areas, shortage-driven panic buying created blocks-long, 
hours-long waiting lines at filling stations.  College students earned 
pocket money sitting in impatient and busy suits' cars, waiting for their 5 
or 10 gallon gasoline allotment.  

For many reasons, I don't think that that particular scenario is likely to 
happen again.  Fuel prices will eventually rise again, but that alone isn't 
enough to make large numbers of people desert ICEVs for EVs.  Look what 
people are willing to pay for gasoline in Europe.  

So, let's think of some ways that EVs might become radically more 
convenient, ways that ICEVs simply can't match.  

Here's one: transparent inductive charging.  Your garage has a standardized 
inductive charger in the floor; you park the car and it fuels itself without 
any active participation from you.  (I know about the cost and efficiency 
issues.  C'mon, dream with me for a minute. ;-)

What if building codes required every new house or major renovation to 
include a universal, standards-defined inductive EV charger in the garage 
floor?  Maybe you could include a square-area threshold at first, so that 
they'd mostly go into more expensive houses where the cost would be a 
trivial fraction.  Mass production would eventually drive down the cost, and 
the square-area threshold could be lowered.

Public parking lots might also be reqired to provide some minimum percentage 
of EV slots with this charging.  Your EV could automatically sip electrons 
while you shopped.  The EV would have a unique ID tag.  Each month the cost 
would be billed to your credit card.  You'd never touch a gas pump or a 
charger cord.

Ads for compatible EVs could crow, "No more smelly gas stations ever, and 
you never have to plug it in!"

Is this scheme really practical?  Probably not. Passing legislation is a 
high bar in the US these days, so public money for this would be hard to 
get.  Still, I've seen additions to building codes that add costs for 
builders go through.  IMO there's a faint glimmer of hope for getting 
something like this into the codes - at least in some states.

Something to think about.  And anyway, we're dreaming here. ;-)

Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match?  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[tomw via EV]

That is my experience too Peri, most people haven't thought much about it. 
They have very little awareness of evs, and the general perception is they
cost more, take a long time to refuel, have less places to refuel, and don't
go far enough to be useful except for in town.  All pretty much true I think
at this point for evs that cost less than $50k.  You have to be willing to
adapt, and most people are not, plus they tend to exaggerate some of those
points.  For example when I say my car has about 75 mile range, then tell
them I can drive to  which is about 30 miles away and back without
charging they are surprised, indicating they haven't thought much about
distances either.  The Volt solves some of those issues but there is still
higher cost and the need to install an EVSE.  Plus today with instant
everything, putting up with inconvenience is sooo yesterday.



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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.

[Paul Dove via EV]

Just put a 50kwh battery pack in your Jetta. 



Sent from my iPhone

> On May 25, 2015, at 10:39 PM, len moskowitz via EV  wrote:
> 
> Cor wrote:
> 
>> Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle,
>> that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or 
>> share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion.
> 
> Perhaps so, but with a 1990 Jetta lead-acid conversion that does only 25 or 
> 30 miles on a charge, and a very rare week that doesn't require me to travel 
> 70 to 100 miles a day at least once, I need an ICE vehicle. I'm not going to 
> rent a car once or twice a week - too much expense and wasted time. The need 
> is not rare for me.
> 
> Even an EV that could do 70 miles on a charge would be inadequate. Make it 
> 150 or 200 miles or it's not enough.
> 
> And since I buy my vehicles used for under $10,000, that used EV should cost 
> the same. Know where I can get one?
> 
> 
> Len Moskowitz
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Hi Len,
I found my $4000 EV on Craigslist and drive it almost every day.
Unfortunately, you are still one of the people that find their daily
driving needs not met by most EVs due to the still limited range.
Not a problem for most people in practice, but it is for some, even though
you could still use an EV on most days - you would need to have both ICE and EV,
just like I do - only it is always me driving the EV and rarely do I need to
use the Prius.

There are plenty developments under way that will soon (within a decade) make 
EVs have a standard range equal to today's ICE, for less cost than today's EVs
but it needs the steps to bring the fundamental research results into products
and that takes several years at minimum.
Hang on, we'll get there.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of len moskowitz via EV
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 8:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's 
the battery.

Cor wrote:

> Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle, that 
> it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or 
> share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion.

Perhaps so, but with a 1990 Jetta lead-acid conversion that does only 25 or 30 
miles on a charge, and a very rare week that doesn't require me to travel 70 to 
100 miles a day at least once, I need an ICE vehicle. I'm not going to rent a 
car once or twice a week - too much expense and wasted time. The need is not 
rare for me.

Even an EV that could do 70 miles on a charge would be inadequate. Make it 150 
or 200 miles or it's not enough.

And since I buy my vehicles used for under $10,000, that used EV should cost 
the same. Know where I can get one?


Len Moskowitz

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.

[Michael Ross via EV]

Len,

I am with you.  But, if you make a fair accounting of the cost of fuel
versus the cost of electrons - it does look a lot better.  Then you can
reasonably say that the EV is better for the environment.  That much is
true but many folks won't let that sway them.   In the even more intangible
side - you don't get to freely choose what kind of EV to buy.  You want a
used EV, you have little to target particularly if you are in the middle or
on the right coast.

It is getting close, but I it is still a costly decision.  If you are not
approaching wealthy then it is not yet an option.

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 11:39 PM, len moskowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Cor wrote:
>
>  Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle,
>> that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or
>> share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion.
>>
>
> Perhaps so, but with a 1990 Jetta lead-acid conversion that does only 25
> or 30 miles on a charge, and a very rare week that doesn't require me to
> travel 70 to 100 miles a day at least once, I need an ICE vehicle. I'm not
> going to rent a car once or twice a week - too much expense and wasted
> time. The need is not rare for me.
>
> Even an EV that could do 70 miles on a charge would be inadequate. Make it
> 150 or 200 miles or it's not enough.
>
> And since I buy my vehicles used for under $10,000, that used EV should
> cost the same. Know where I can get one?
>
>
> Len Moskowitz
>
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-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.

[len moskowitz via EV]

Cor wrote:


Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle,
that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow 
or share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion.


Perhaps so, but with a 1990 Jetta lead-acid conversion that does only 25 
or 30 miles on a charge, and a very rare week that doesn't require me to 
travel 70 to 100 miles a day at least once, I need an ICE vehicle. I'm 
not going to rent a car once or twice a week - too much expense and 
wasted time. The need is not rare for me.


Even an EV that could do 70 miles on a charge would be inadequate. Make 
it 150 or 200 miles or it's not enough.


And since I buy my vehicles used for under $10,000, that used EV should 
cost the same. Know where I can get one?



Len Moskowitz

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 23 May 2015 at 18:35, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle, that
> it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or
> share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion. 

Or use mass transit - if you can.  

If I'm not mistaken, in most European cities, and even in a lot of semi-
rural areas, there's usually a train station within EV range.  I don't know 
what the parking situation is at train stations, but assuming that's 
possible, you should be able to handle a lot of your long distance travel 
that way.  

I suppose you might consider going by train to be less convenient, because 
you may have to change trains.  IMO that's offset by the fact that on the 
way you can relax, read, work, or sleep.  You'll arrive refreshed instead of 
frazzled from traffic.  To me that's worth a lot.

Unfortunately, here in the US, we don't seem have mass transit that supports 
this scheme.  We do have buses. I've tried to use them.   Maybe it's better 
in big cities, but I ran into problems with the bus stations being too far 
away for EV range, and with parking at the bus stations. 

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

"unknown makes unloved"
If I here (in Silicon Valley) ask how I can go to San Francisco,
the people start to explain which freeways I need to take: 101 or 280!
When I probe a bit more "any alternatives?" then they become creative:
you could drive up Skyline (35) or take 1 along the coast...
It does not enter their mind that I might want to go by train or bus or
taxi or even ride my bicycle on the Bay Trail to get to the city.
The car is so engrained, that people only choose from the solutions that
they would take themselves, because they know them.
Similar to EV. Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle,
that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or share
a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion.
That all sounds like a "hassle" to people raised with the status quo of
liquid fuel cars and it also paves the way for non-starter solutions like
Hydrogen to collect a following, even though it is a lose-lose-lose proposition.
(CO2 production goes up; infrastructure spending goes through the roof and
the operational cost is higher - not to mention the risks inherent to this 
"fuel")

Luckily I see some battery developments in progress that will make Hydrogen 
irrelevant,
so the lobbyists will soon find a closed door, but it will take a few more 
years,
so we will have to endure that madness for a little longer.

In the mean time, companies like Tesla make the EV a desired item, not a hassle
and Nissan has paved the way to get masses into the EV driver seat, so we just 
need
to stay steady with the message that you are driving your EV for free, compared 
to
the expenses of an ICE and people will continue to be curious how they can also
lower the cost of their worst habit and the increasing competition in the market
will also drive the price down, in addition to ever better range and charge 
speed.

I heard from solar installers that about 50% of households who get an EV, also
opt to install solar if they can, so they not only have freed themselves from
paying for their fuel from that moment onwards, but also eliminated the impact
on the environment for their driving habit.

To come back to the 3 interviewed persons - now that they are questioned about 
it,
they may realize that they answered without actually knowing all that much, so 
they
might ask others or question their own opinion. If they find acceptable answers 
from
a reliable source (someone they trust relates how they enjoy their EV) then they
may very well change their opinion - it is an opinion after all...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2015 2:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's 
the battery.

True, new concepts take time to catch on. We who own EVs know these are 
unfounded fears.

I would be apprehensive of selling my car and moving to a big city and using 
mass transits because I've always lived in rural areas but many people get by 
just fine like that.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 23, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> It's difficult for us EV enthusiasts to know what the rest of the world 
> thinks.  So I went and asked three non EV people their opionions.  These are 
> moderately affluent people who are married and own two cars per household.  
> I'll present their stories here but won't try to interpret their meanings too 
> much.
> 
> I posed the question like this: Suppose one of your cars broke down and you 
> decided it wasn't worth fixing.  You're going to buy a new car.  Why would or 
> would not you choose an electric vehicle?
> 
> 1.  I'd probably choose a gas car.  Don't I have to install some sort of 
> charging system at home?  That might be difficult.  And are there enough 
> charging stations around?  I don't know if I would need to charge while 
> driving places.  Of course, my wife hardly drives a few miles each day, she 
> would never run out of charge.
> 
> 2.  I hear that Tesla is coming out with a 200 mile range EV for around $40K 
> in a few years.  I think I'd rather wait for that rather than buy a car that 
> doesn't really fit my needs.
> 
> 3.  To buy an EV, I spend more and get less car.  With my gas car,

Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Paul Dove via EV]

True, new concepts take time to catch on. We who own EVs know these are 
unfounded fears.

I would be apprehensive of selling my car and moving to a big city and using 
mass transits because I've always lived in rural areas but many people get by 
just fine like that.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 23, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> It's difficult for us EV enthusiasts to know what the rest of the world 
> thinks.  So I went and asked three non EV people their opionions.  These are 
> moderately affluent people who are married and own two cars per household.  
> I'll present their stories here but won't try to interpret their meanings too 
> much.
> 
> I posed the question like this: Suppose one of your cars broke down and you 
> decided it wasn't worth fixing.  You're going to buy a new car.  Why would or 
> would not you choose an electric vehicle?
> 
> 1.  I'd probably choose a gas car.  Don't I have to install some sort of 
> charging system at home?  That might be difficult.  And are there enough 
> charging stations around?  I don't know if I would need to charge while 
> driving places.  Of course, my wife hardly drives a few miles each day, she 
> would never run out of charge.
> 
> 2.  I hear that Tesla is coming out with a 200 mile range EV for around $40K 
> in a few years.  I think I'd rather wait for that rather than buy a car that 
> doesn't really fit my needs.
> 
> 3.  To buy an EV, I spend more and get less car.  With my gas car, I don't 
> have to plan ahead.  If I need to go a long distance, I just go.  (Me: what 
> about using your wife's car?)  Well, she might be using it to go a longer 
> distance at the same time.
> 
> I could have asked more questions and led the discussions but I more or less 
> just left it.  In the last case, it's evident that renting a car or using a 
> service like car2go for the rare cases where both people need to go "long" 
> distances either seemed too inconvenient or wasn't considered.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Paul Dove via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 20-May-15 4:28:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? 
> It's the battery.
> 
>> Well I am sorry he got annoyed and left but I still disagree. All we are 
>> seeing is the adoption curve. Any new technology takes time to be mass 
>> accepted. Before the lithium battery electric vehicles were a novelty. Now 
>> they are here to stay.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On May 20, 2015, at 1:45 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
 wrote:
 
 On 19 May 2015 at 22:52, jerry freedomev via EV wrote:
 
 Hi Arak and all, Well you did say that since EV's didn't fit 30% of the
 population needs it wasn't good on an EV list kind of should expect
 blowback.
>>> 
>>> Well said Jerry, but Arak isn't listening. Thus challenged, he got indignant
>>> and unsubscribed.  :-(
>>> 
>>> Let us not forget the immortal Fidonet Principles:
>>>Thou shalt not be too annoying.
>>>Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed.
>>> 
>>> I'm sympathetic with some of his points, though.  Most of us here don't
>>> think EVs have to manage all the missions and trips that ICEVs can, but
>>> we're not normal vehicle buyers.  The average person is not going to pay an
>>> ICEV price for a car that does less and covers fewer of his transporation
>>> needs than an ICEV does.  That's just normal, rational consumer behavior.
>>> 
>>> To really take off, EVs that look and cost like ICEVs have to work like
>>> ICEVs.  EVs that don't, don't.  Hint, hint.
>>> 
>>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>> EVDL Administrator
>>> 
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>>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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[EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

It's difficult for us EV enthusiasts to know what the rest of the world 
thinks.  So I went and asked three non EV people their opionions.  These 
are moderately affluent people who are married and own two cars per 
household.  I'll present their stories here but won't try to interpret 
their meanings too much.


I posed the question like this: Suppose one of your cars broke down and 
you decided it wasn't worth fixing.  You're going to buy a new car.  Why 
would or would not you choose an electric vehicle?


1.  I'd probably choose a gas car.  Don't I have to install some sort of 
charging system at home?  That might be difficult.  And are there enough 
charging stations around?  I don't know if I would need to charge while 
driving places.  Of course, my wife hardly drives a few miles each day, 
she would never run out of charge.


2.  I hear that Tesla is coming out with a 200 mile range EV for around 
$40K in a few years.  I think I'd rather wait for that rather than buy a 
car that doesn't really fit my needs.


3.  To buy an EV, I spend more and get less car.  With my gas car, I 
don't have to plan ahead.  If I need to go a long distance, I just go.  
(Me: what about using your wife's car?)  Well, she might be using it to 
go a longer distance at the same time.


I could have asked more questions and led the discussions but I more or 
less just left it.  In the last case, it's evident that renting a car or 
using a service like car2go for the rare cases where both people need to 
go "long" distances either seemed too inconvenient or wasn't considered.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Paul Dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 20-May-15 4:28:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales 
Better? It's the battery.


Well I am sorry he got annoyed and left but I still disagree. All we 
are seeing is the adoption curve. Any new technology takes time to be 
mass accepted. Before the lithium battery electric vehicles were a 
novelty. Now they are here to stay.


Sent from my iPhone

 On May 20, 2015, at 1:45 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:



 On 19 May 2015 at 22:52, jerry freedomev via EV wrote:

 Hi Arak and all, Well you did say that since EV's didn't fit 30% of 
the

 population needs it wasn't good on an EV list kind of should expect
 blowback.


 Well said Jerry, but Arak isn't listening. Thus challenged, he got 
indignant

 and unsubscribed.  :-(

 Let us not forget the immortal Fidonet Principles:
Thou shalt not be too annoying.
Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed.

 I'm sympathetic with some of his points, though.  Most of us here 
don't
 think EVs have to manage all the missions and trips that ICEVs can, 
but
 we're not normal vehicle buyers.  The average person is not going to 
pay an
 ICEV price for a car that does less and covers fewer of his 
transporation
 needs than an ICEV does.  That's just normal, rational consumer 
behavior.


 To really take off, EVs that look and cost like ICEVs have to work 
like

 ICEVs.  EVs that don't, don't.  Hint, hint.

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

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 EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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 email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> I think the main point of the article is that most families
> that can't afford (or can't have for other reasons) two cars
> will continue to chose an ICE car over an EV.

So BIG deal!  Less than 1/3rd of Americans only have access to one car.  So
why can't these 30% get out of the way of the 70% solution which works
perfectly for the other 70%.

> You can agree or disagree but until there are more EVs
> that are "affordable" and can go 200+ miles on a charge,
> he's claiming "it's the battery, stupid".

The car that can go 200 miles on a charge will forever be FAR LESS
AFFORDABLE than the one that can go 80 miles daily and satisfy 80% of all
drivers needs.  Most of that 80% DON'T WANT a 200 mile range if it is going
to cost them nearly DOUBLE the car price.

His claim about "stupid"... should be  "Its education and understanding,
stupid"...

This is the same lethargy of those clueless individuals who are still
"waiting for higher efficiency" solar panels, when TODAY's panels cost less
than a common window!  And 83% of the cost of a solar system is the labor.
They will be waiting forever...  Wheras the  existing systems can cut one's
energy costs in HALF if they simply buy now.  And every year they wait, they
are losing a YEAR of free electricity for life...

Rant off...

Bob, WB4APR

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 19-May-15 8:31:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?
It's the battery.

>>  How trite!... Also, completely wrong.
>>  The current battery is what makes electric cars viable...
>http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277584
>
>Here is my response to this stupid article:
>
>The basis of your uninformed claim "Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an
>Innovative Battery" is your century and 3 generation old legacy of
>gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking.
>
>Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of
>EV's.  Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but
>they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of
>local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle
>transportation (and emissions)!
>
>Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner
>will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them
>3:to:1
>on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car?
>
>You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking.  Sure in
>2010, the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars.  But by 2013
>with 15 EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the
>average
>cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold
>in America ($31k).  By 2015, the average price* of all EV's  ($29k) is
>now $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury
>Tesla, then the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the
>average gas car?
>
>And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further
>bringing down that average cost (*after incentives).
>
>So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated
>legacy-thinking)
>claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST
>satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs?
>
>What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is
>completely misguided and fails.
>
>Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html
>
>Sorry for the tone.  But it is gas driving authors with articles like
>yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery.  The battery HAS
>SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car.  Let
>those that can use it buy it and get out of the way.
>
>Sorry for the tone.  But rants feel good sometimes..
>
>Bob, WB4APR
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Paul Dove via EV]

It's the same old argument only its not valid. All we are witnessing now is the 
adoption curve. All new technology takes time to catch on.

Everyone I have let drive my car said, "oh, this is just like a car". 

1 out of ten go out and buy one after driving one. In my experience

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 19, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Arak Leatham via EV  wrote:
> 
> Not stupid at all. You just resent the facts presented in the case.  If you 
> want EV's to succeed, you need to face what potential customers think. Solve 
> their issues, and whalla, Success! Stupid or not, those are your customers. 
> The article just simply laid out their thinking.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG )
> 
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:31:52 -0400
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? 
>> It's the battery.
>> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> 
>>> How trite!... Also, completely wrong.
>>> The current battery is what makes electric cars viable...
>> http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277584
>> 
>> Here is my response to this stupid article:
>> 
>> The basis of your uninformed claim "Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an
>> Innovative Battery" is your century and 3 generation old legacy of
>> gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking.
>> 
>> Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of
>> EV's.  Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but
>> they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of
>> local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle
>> transportation (and emissions)!
>> 
>> Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner
>> will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1
>> on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car?
>> 
>> You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking.  Sure in 2010,
>> the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars.  But by 2013 with 15
>> EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average
>> cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in
>> America ($31k).  By 2015, the average price* of all EV's  ($29k) is now
>> $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then
>> the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car?
>> 
>> And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing
>> down that average cost (*after incentives).
>> 
>> So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking)
>> claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST
>> satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs?
>> 
>> What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is
>> completely misguided and fails.
>> 
>> Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html
>> 
>> Sorry for the tone.  But it is gas driving authors with articles like
>> yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery.  The battery HAS
>> SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car.  Let
>> those that can use it buy it and get out of the way.
>> 
>> Sorry for the tone.  But rants feel good sometimes..
>> 
>> Bob, WB4APR
>> ___
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>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Arak Leatham via EV]

Not stupid at all. You just resent the facts presented in the case.  If you 
want EV's to succeed, you need to face what potential customers think. Solve 
their issues, and whalla, Success! Stupid or not, those are your customers. The 
article just simply laid out their thinking.  




Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG )
 
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:31:52 -0400
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? 
> It's the battery.
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> > How trite!... Also, completely wrong.
> > The current battery is what makes electric cars viable...
> http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277584
> 
> Here is my response to this stupid article:
> 
> The basis of your uninformed claim "Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an
> Innovative Battery" is your century and 3 generation old legacy of
> gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking.
> 
> Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of
> EV's.  Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but
> they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of
> local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle
> transportation (and emissions)!
> 
> Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner
> will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1
> on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car?
> 
> You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking.  Sure in 2010,
> the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars.  But by 2013 with 15
> EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average
> cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in
> America ($31k).  By 2015, the average price* of all EV's  ($29k) is now
> $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then
> the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car?
> 
> And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing
> down that average cost (*after incentives).
> 
> So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking)
> claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST
> satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs?
> 
> What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is
> completely misguided and fails.
> 
> Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html
> 
> Sorry for the tone.  But it is gas driving authors with articles like
> yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery.  The battery HAS
> SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car.  Let
> those that can use it buy it and get out of the way.
> 
> Sorry for the tone.  But rants feel good sometimes..
> 
> Bob, WB4APR
> ___
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Russ Sciville via EV]

Then again you could purchase a second hand Volt/Ampera and drive electric for 
95% of the time with a four cylinder ICE for longer journeys.Very cost 
effective now they are being released from business leases and I haven't 
fuelled mine for over two months.
  From: Peri Hartman via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, 19 May 2015, 17:02
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's 
the battery.
   
I think the main point of the article is that most families that can't 
afford (or can't have for other reasons) two cars will continue to chose 
and ICE car over an EV.  This is purportedly because, even though the EV 
will accomodate 80-90% of their driving needs, that other 10% is too 
much of a hurdle.  That is, they don't consider renting an ICE car for 
that other 10% to be a viable option.  You can agree or disagree but 
until there are more EVs that are "affordable" and can go 200+ miles on 
a charge, he's claiming "it's the battery, stupid".

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 19-May-15 8:31:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales 
Better? It's the battery.

>>  How trite!... Also, completely wrong.
>>  The current battery is what makes electric cars viable...
>http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277584
>
>Here is my response to this stupid article:
>
>The basis of your uninformed claim "Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an
>Innovative Battery" is your century and 3 generation old legacy of
>gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking.
>
>Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of
>EV's.  Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but
>they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of
>local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle
>transportation (and emissions)!
>
>Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner
>will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 
>3:to:1
>on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car?
>
>You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking.  Sure in 
>2010,
>the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars.  But by 2013 with 15
>EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average
>cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold 
>in
>America ($31k).  By 2015, the average price* of all EV's  ($29k) is now
>$3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, 
>then
>the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car?
>
>And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further 
>bringing
>down that average cost (*after incentives).
>
>So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated 
>legacy-thinking)
>claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST
>satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs?
>
>What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is
>completely misguided and fails.
>
>Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html
>
>Sorry for the tone.  But it is gas driving authors with articles like
>yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery.  The battery HAS
>SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car.  Let
>those that can use it buy it and get out of the way.
>
>Sorry for the tone.  But rants feel good sometimes..
>
>Bob, WB4APR
>___
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>For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I think the main point of the article is that most families that can't 
afford (or can't have for other reasons) two cars will continue to chose 
and ICE car over an EV.  This is purportedly because, even though the EV 
will accomodate 80-90% of their driving needs, that other 10% is too 
much of a hurdle.  That is, they don't consider renting an ICE car for 
that other 10% to be a viable option.  You can agree or disagree but 
until there are more EVs that are "affordable" and can go 200+ miles on 
a charge, he's claiming "it's the battery, stupid".


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 19-May-15 8:31:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales 
Better? It's the battery.



 How trite!... Also, completely wrong.
 The current battery is what makes electric cars viable...

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277584

Here is my response to this stupid article:

The basis of your uninformed claim "Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an
Innovative Battery" is your century and 3 generation old legacy of
gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking.

Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of
EV's.  Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but
they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of
local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle
transportation (and emissions)!

Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner
will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 
3:to:1

on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car?

You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking.  Sure in 
2010,

the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars.  But by 2013 with 15
EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average
cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold 
in

America ($31k).  By 2015, the average price* of all EV's  ($29k) is now
$3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, 
then

the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car?

And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further 
bringing

down that average cost (*after incentives).

So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated 
legacy-thinking)

claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST
satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs?

What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is
completely misguided and fails.

Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html

Sorry for the tone.  But it is gas driving authors with articles like
yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery.  The battery HAS
SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car.  Let
those that can use it buy it and get out of the way.

Sorry for the tone.  But rants feel good sometimes..

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> How trite!... Also, completely wrong.
> The current battery is what makes electric cars viable...
http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277584

Here is my response to this stupid article:

The basis of your uninformed claim "Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an
Innovative Battery" is your century and 3 generation old legacy of
gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking.

Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of
EV's.  Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but
they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of
local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle
transportation (and emissions)!

Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner
will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1
on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car?

You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking.  Sure in 2010,
the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars.  But by 2013 with 15
EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average
cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in
America ($31k).  By 2015, the average price* of all EV's  ($29k) is now
$3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then
the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car?

And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing
down that average cost (*after incentives).

So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking)
claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST
satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs?

What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is
completely misguided and fails.

Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html

Sorry for the tone.  But it is gas driving authors with articles like
yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery.  The battery HAS
SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car.  Let
those that can use it buy it and get out of the way.

Sorry for the tone.  But rants feel good sometimes..

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[paul dove via EV]

How trite!
Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable. 
Prior to now they were of limited value.I drive mine every day. Only time I 
don't drive it is when I use my truck to haul something or take the Corvette 
for a pleasure drive.
  From: len moskowitz via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 8:20 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the 
battery.
   
http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277584



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[EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[len moskowitz via EV]

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710&doc_id=277584

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