[EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[brucedp5 via EV]

Amoungst the newsitems, I'm finding several of the latest round of koch-paid 
misinformational items. IMO, that item is one of them spread around media
outlets like manure
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric-car+revolution+may+take+a+lot+longer+than+expected





For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
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{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I concur. I did a little searching and the *current* average for a 
complete pack is about $200 per kWh. That's the low end of the report's 
price range. Further searching showed significant donations to the 
research group by at least two oil companies, one of them Exxon Mobile.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 19-Nov-19 7:26:37 PM
Subject: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer 
than expected



Amoungst the newsitems, I'm finding several of the latest round of koch-paid
misinformational items. IMO, that item is one of them spread around media
outlets like manure
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric-car+revolution+may+take+a+lot+longer+than+expected





For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 20 Nov 2019 at 3:39, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

>  I did a little searching and the *current* average for a complete
> pack is about $200 per kWh. 

For another data point, it's 8000 Euros (about US$8800) to buy the factory 
52kWh battery for a 2020 Renault Zoe (AFAIK still Europe's largest-selling 
EV).  That's $169/kWh.  The 2019 Zoe battery was 42kWh and cost 9000 Euros 
($235/kWh). 

I'm sure that at some point, lithium batteries will probably reach the stage 
that lead batteries have, where they're effectively commodities whose price 
depends mostly on that of the raw materials going into them.  I don't see a 
way to predict when that might happen.

Also, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, there are other EV 
costs besides the battery that haven't yet been significantly reduced.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 20 Nov 2019 at 3:39, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


  I did a little searching and the *current* average for a complete
pack is about $200 per kWh.


For another data point, it's 8000 Euros (about US$8800) to buy the factory
52kWh battery for a 2020 Renault Zoe (AFAIK still Europe's largest-selling
EV).  That's $169/kWh.  The 2019 Zoe battery was 42kWh and cost 9000 Euros
($235/kWh).

I'm sure that at some point, lithium batteries will probably reach the stage
that lead batteries have, where they're effectively commodities whose price
depends mostly on that of the raw materials going into them.  I don't see a
way to predict when that might happen.

Also, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, there are other EV
costs besides the battery that haven't yet been significantly reduced.


Another point: Lead-acid is so cheap because virtually all the materials 
get recycled.


At present, the large majority of lithium batteries are *not* recycled. 
That's bound to drive up the cost of materials.


And you know how it goes; we won't recycle until we *have* to. It took 
laws in the US and Europe to force companies to recycle. They'd much 
rather get their materials from some 3rd world country with slave labor 
wages and no environmental laws. :-(


Lee
--
ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries. But car 
batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at least after 
a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably recycled. There 
just aren't that many going to the junk yards yet to have any reliable 
data.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 20-Nov-19 7:19:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot 
longer than expected



EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 20 Nov 2019 at 3:39, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


  I did a little searching and the *current* average for a complete
pack is about $200 per kWh.


For another data point, it's 8000 Euros (about US$8800) to buy the factory
52kWh battery for a 2020 Renault Zoe (AFAIK still Europe's largest-selling
EV).  That's $169/kWh.  The 2019 Zoe battery was 42kWh and cost 9000 Euros
($235/kWh).

I'm sure that at some point, lithium batteries will probably reach the stage
that lead batteries have, where they're effectively commodities whose price
depends mostly on that of the raw materials going into them.  I don't see a
way to predict when that might happen.

Also, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, there are other EV
costs besides the battery that haven't yet been significantly reduced.


Another point: Lead-acid is so cheap because virtually all the materials get 
recycled.

At present, the large majority of lithium batteries are *not* recycled. That's 
bound to drive up the cost of materials.

And you know how it goes; we won't recycle until we *have* to. It took laws in 
the US and Europe to force companies to recycle. They'd much rather get their 
materials from some 3rd world country with slave labor wages and no 
environmental laws. :-(

Lee
-- ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries.


That's because it's nearly impossible to do so. Many of the places that 
take small consumer batteries for recycling are not taking lithiums, due 
to the (real or perceived) risk of fire.



But car batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at
least after a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably
recycled.


I worry that industry won't recycle lithiums until they are *forced* to 
do it. As long as it's even 1 cent cheaper to buy them new, and landfill 
the waste, they will.


Lee
--
ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[paul dove via EV]

If you discharge them first they don't have any energy in order to catch fire.
 

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 10:19:44 AM CST, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries.

That's because it's nearly impossible to do so. Many of the places that 
take small consumer batteries for recycling are not taking lithiums, due 
to the (real or perceived) risk of fire.

> But car batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at
> least after a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably
> recycled.

I worry that industry won't recycle lithiums until they are *forced* to 
do it. As long as it's even 1 cent cheaper to buy them new, and landfill 
the waste, they will.

Lee
-- 
ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[paul dove via EV]

In addition,
There are no problems recycling them. there is nothing toxic in a Lithium Ion 
battery. Alcohol, aluminum, plastic, copper and some traces metals and a small 
amount of lithium salt. I have taken them apart and anyone that tries to say 
these are a recycling problem are just making it up. 
 

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 9:41:37 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries. But car 
batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at least after 
a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably recycled. There 
just aren't that many going to the junk yards yet to have any reliable 
data.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 20-Nov-19 7:19:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot 
longer than expected

>EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>On 20 Nov 2019 at 3:39, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>
>>>  I did a little searching and the *current* average for a complete
>>>pack is about $200 per kWh.
>>
>>For another data point, it's 8000 Euros (about US$8800) to buy the factory
>>52kWh battery for a 2020 Renault Zoe (AFAIK still Europe's largest-selling
>>EV).  That's $169/kWh.  The 2019 Zoe battery was 42kWh and cost 9000 Euros
>>($235/kWh).
>>
>>I'm sure that at some point, lithium batteries will probably reach the stage
>>that lead batteries have, where they're effectively commodities whose price
>>depends mostly on that of the raw materials going into them.  I don't see a
>>way to predict when that might happen.
>>
>>Also, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, there are other EV
>>costs besides the battery that haven't yet been significantly reduced.
>
>Another point: Lead-acid is so cheap because virtually all the materials get 
>recycled.
>
>At present, the large majority of lithium batteries are *not* recycled. That's 
>bound to drive up the cost of materials.
>
>And you know how it goes; we won't recycle until we *have* to. It took laws in 
>the US and Europe to force companies to recycle. They'd much rather get their 
>materials from some 3rd world country with slave labor wages and no 
>environmental laws. :-(
>
>Lee
>-- ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
>better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
>you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
>--
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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>

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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[Bill Dube via EV]

An important point is that li-Ion batteries need to be recycled one 
tenth (or perhaps twentieth) as often as lead-acid. Even at the end of 
their life in a car, unlike lead-acid, they have life left in them for 
alternative uses. They slowly fade away instead of falling off a cliff.


These two facts add up to make recycling of li-ion batteries much less 
of a problem than you might think at first. Indeed, you should recycle, 
but if only 10% of the lead-acid batteries escape the recycling stream, 
you are ahead of the game because li-ion batteries last at least 10 
times longer. Plus, lead is toxic to the environment, while little in 
li-ion batteries is toxic.


More to the point, lead-acid batteries are not recycled at "nearly 100%" 
as claimed. If you look at the numbers provided by the lead industry 
itself, at _least_ 30% of them escape the recycling stream.


Lead-acid batteries use 80% of all the raw lead produced every year. 
However, only 50% of the raw lead comes from recycled lead, the other 
50% is mined. (This percentage has been constant for many years.) This 
means that 30% of batteries escape the recycling stream.


I suspect that the "95% recycled" number comes from the lead-acid 
batteries that make it through the gate of the recycling facility. It 
has to. If they truly reached these numbers, they wouldn't need to mine 
much lead at all, not 50% of what is needed.


Bill D.

On 11/21/2019 5:18 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I doubt many people are recycling laptop and phone batteries.


That's because it's nearly impossible to do so. Many of the places 
that take small consumer batteries for recycling are not taking 
lithiums, due to the (real or perceived) risk of fire.



But car batteries ? I assume nearly 100% are getting repurposed, at
least after a modest amount of time. And, in the future, probably
recycled.


I worry that industry won't recycle lithiums until they are *forced* 
to do it. As long as it's even 1 cent cheaper to buy them new, and 
landfill the waste, they will.


Lee



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Re: [EVDL] koch-koolaid= bs: ... revolution may take a lot longer than expected

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 21 Nov 2019 at 8:09, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> More to the point, lead-acid batteries are not recycled at "nearly 100%" as
> claimed. If you look at the numbers provided by the lead industry itself, at
> _least_ 30% of them escape the recycling stream

No worries.  Ignoring corrections and endlessly repeating their alternative 
facts works just fine for fascists and climate deniers, so I see no reason 
to change our faith in the near-perfection of lead battery recycling.  

I just checked my sources.  Yup, nearly 100%.  I call that success.  



David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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