Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[- - via EV]

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Jamie K via EV]

I'd lean more toward Brandon's overall "B" than Peri's "mediocre" rating 
for the LEAF's dash controls.


I have a 2013 and Peri has a 2011, so there are a few differences, the 
biggest being the welcome addition of a charge percentage readout on the 
2013. Although the ability to turn off the pedestrian warning was 
removed, so count that as a plus for the 2011.


When driving, the controls I actually use are generally not distracting. 
Radio, cruise, internal/external vent, wipers, heat/AC.


The steering wheel heat button is an exception, and if I want to bring 
up the energy usage screen it would be nice to have a single button for 
that (the status screen comes close).


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com



On 11/13/15 1:10 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Well, I bought the car in 2011.  It's a lot better than anything I could
have built, especially since I don't have the place to work on anything.
  Overall I'm happy with it and glad I bought it.

My point is that they did a very mediocre job on their instrumentation.
One can rationalize and dismiss their poor designs but they are still
that - poor designs.  Even on their ICE cars, they have better designs.
Perhaps they wanted the Leaf to look different and broke all the
patterns of familiarity to do that.

My feeling is that, when driving, you should be putting your attention
on driving.  Any control system which requires more than a quick glace
is unnecessarily unsafe.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Brandon Hines" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" 
Sent: 13-Nov-15 10:32:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...


Peri,

Most of your complaints seem odd.  There is a great amount of room for
improvement, but overall things work as well or better than most other
cars especially since many other cars simply do not have all of these
features.

On 11/13/2015 11:37 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

 This is getting OT but I want to point out that the instrumentation
 issue goes beyond the SOC meter.

 - all buttons for radio, heat, settings, etc. look virtually
 identical; you have to memorize them before you can safely drive the
 car.  All labels are text with no or minimal graphics, so you have to
 actually read them rather than identify by shape or icon.

You must be kidding.  Are you referring to the touch screen controls or
the large physical controls?  The touch screen UI leaves a lot to be
desired, but I have found very little need to interact with it while
driving.   I think that the only times I typically have to touch the
screen are to dismiss that annoying start-up notice and to call someone
using the address book.

Speaking of address book, I never figured out the voice activation
system.  Now that is one absolutely horribly implemented feature, but
completely unnecessary and it does not diminish the rest of the car.


 - in order to view the temperature setting you have to change the
 temperature - you can't just view the current setting.


You are correct with this one.  Although my Leaf is the first car that
ever had a temperature readout at all.  Every other car I have owned let
me select the size of the dot and guess what that dot meant.


 - There is no virtual (on screen) buttons for graphically setting
 which vents should blow air - you have to cycle through.  Well, sort
 of - there are some convoluted operations for turning on defrost...

What about the big physical defrost button below the screen?  Or the
physical levers underneath each vent?  Why bother with the screen at all?


 - The steering wheel controls have micro sized font on them which can
 only be seen in direct sunlight.


I found the steering wheel controls to be well designed and easy to
use.  My complaint is that I wish the steering wheel controls could
control more.  The buttons seem to be single function.


 - The map application is utterly useless.  I won't enumerate here but
 I can probably list a dozen significant faults.


Compared to my other maps in car systems the Leaf is not bad.  It
doesn't compare to a Tesla, but I much prefer it over VW, Ford or Toyota
maps that I have seen.  Now the charge station locator on the map is
certainly useless, I'll grant you that.


 - The car has two clocks which run entirely independently and must be
 set through two different mechanisms.


This one is annoying . . . twice a year.


 - Settings, such as the resetting the trip odometer or the average
 mile/kwh, are controlled from a small obscure panel below and to the
 left of the steering wheel. Very hard to see and there are only four
 buttons so you spend a lot of time clicking to cycle through options.
 Not a good idea to do while you're driving.



This is a reasonable complaint.


 - What else?  These are off the top of my head !


I would give the Leaf controls a solid B to B+.  Not in th

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Well, I bought the car in 2011.  It's a lot better than anything I could 
have built, especially since I don't have the place to work on anything. 
 Overall I'm happy with it and glad I bought it.


My point is that they did a very mediocre job on their instrumentation.  
One can rationalize and dismiss their poor designs but they are still 
that - poor designs.  Even on their ICE cars, they have better designs.  
Perhaps they wanted the Leaf to look different and broke all the 
patterns of familiarity to do that.


My feeling is that, when driving, you should be putting your attention 
on driving.  Any control system which requires more than a quick glace 
is unnecessarily unsafe.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Brandon Hines" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 13-Nov-15 10:32:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...


Peri,

Most of your complaints seem odd.  There is a great amount of room for
improvement, but overall things work as well or better than most other
cars especially since many other cars simply do not have all of these
features.

On 11/13/2015 11:37 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

 This is getting OT but I want to point out that the instrumentation
 issue goes beyond the SOC meter.

 - all buttons for radio, heat, settings, etc. look virtually
 identical; you have to memorize them before you can safely drive the
 car.  All labels are text with no or minimal graphics, so you have to
 actually read them rather than identify by shape or icon.

You must be kidding.  Are you referring to the touch screen controls or
the large physical controls?  The touch screen UI leaves a lot to be
desired, but I have found very little need to interact with it while
driving.   I think that the only times I typically have to touch the
screen are to dismiss that annoying start-up notice and to call someone
using the address book.

Speaking of address book, I never figured out the voice activation
system.  Now that is one absolutely horribly implemented feature, but
completely unnecessary and it does not diminish the rest of the car.


 - in order to view the temperature setting you have to change the
 temperature - you can't just view the current setting.


You are correct with this one.  Although my Leaf is the first car that
ever had a temperature readout at all.  Every other car I have owned 
let

me select the size of the dot and guess what that dot meant.


 - There is no virtual (on screen) buttons for graphically setting
 which vents should blow air - you have to cycle through.  Well, sort
 of - there are some convoluted operations for turning on defrost...

What about the big physical defrost button below the screen?  Or the
physical levers underneath each vent?  Why bother with the screen at 
all?



 - The steering wheel controls have micro sized font on them which can
 only be seen in direct sunlight.


I found the steering wheel controls to be well designed and easy to
use.  My complaint is that I wish the steering wheel controls could
control more.  The buttons seem to be single function.


 - The map application is utterly useless.  I won't enumerate here but
 I can probably list a dozen significant faults.


Compared to my other maps in car systems the Leaf is not bad.  It
doesn't compare to a Tesla, but I much prefer it over VW, Ford or 
Toyota

maps that I have seen.  Now the charge station locator on the map is
certainly useless, I'll grant you that.


 - The car has two clocks which run entirely independently and must be
 set through two different mechanisms.


This one is annoying . . . twice a year.


 - Settings, such as the resetting the trip odometer or the average
 mile/kwh, are controlled from a small obscure panel below and to the
 left of the steering wheel. Very hard to see and there are only four
 buttons so you spend a lot of time clicking to cycle through options.
 Not a good idea to do while you're driving.



This is a reasonable complaint.


 - What else?  These are off the top of my head !


I would give the Leaf controls a solid B to B+.  Not in the same class
as Tesla or high-end cars, but absolutely competes within its class as
far as usability.



 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Jamie K via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Sent: 13-Nov-15 9:26:08 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...


 On 11/13/15 10:13 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

 On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

 On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
 Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch 
wine

 sound
 from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


 I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
 typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it 
annoying,

 some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice 

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Brandon Hines via EV]

Peri,

Most of your complaints seem odd.  There is a great amount of room for
improvement, but overall things work as well or better than most other
cars especially since many other cars simply do not have all of these
features.

On 11/13/2015 11:37 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> This is getting OT but I want to point out that the instrumentation
> issue goes beyond the SOC meter.
>
> - all buttons for radio, heat, settings, etc. look virtually
> identical; you have to memorize them before you can safely drive the
> car.  All labels are text with no or minimal graphics, so you have to
> actually read them rather than identify by shape or icon.
You must be kidding.  Are you referring to the touch screen controls or
the large physical controls?  The touch screen UI leaves a lot to be
desired, but I have found very little need to interact with it while
driving.   I think that the only times I typically have to touch the
screen are to dismiss that annoying start-up notice and to call someone
using the address book.

Speaking of address book, I never figured out the voice activation
system.  Now that is one absolutely horribly implemented feature, but
completely unnecessary and it does not diminish the rest of the car. 

> - in order to view the temperature setting you have to change the
> temperature - you can't just view the current setting.

You are correct with this one.  Although my Leaf is the first car that
ever had a temperature readout at all.  Every other car I have owned let
me select the size of the dot and guess what that dot meant.

> - There is no virtual (on screen) buttons for graphically setting
> which vents should blow air - you have to cycle through.  Well, sort
> of - there are some convoluted operations for turning on defrost...
What about the big physical defrost button below the screen?  Or the
physical levers underneath each vent?  Why bother with the screen at all?

> - The steering wheel controls have micro sized font on them which can
> only be seen in direct sunlight.

I found the steering wheel controls to be well designed and easy to
use.  My complaint is that I wish the steering wheel controls could
control more.  The buttons seem to be single function. 

> - The map application is utterly useless.  I won't enumerate here but
> I can probably list a dozen significant faults.

Compared to my other maps in car systems the Leaf is not bad.  It
doesn't compare to a Tesla, but I much prefer it over VW, Ford or Toyota
maps that I have seen.  Now the charge station locator on the map is
certainly useless, I'll grant you that.

> - The car has two clocks which run entirely independently and must be
> set through two different mechanisms.

This one is annoying . . . twice a year.

> - Settings, such as the resetting the trip odometer or the average
> mile/kwh, are controlled from a small obscure panel below and to the
> left of the steering wheel. Very hard to see and there are only four
> buttons so you spend a lot of time clicking to cycle through options. 
> Not a good idea to do while you're driving.
>

This is a reasonable complaint.

> - What else?  These are off the top of my head !

I would give the Leaf controls a solid B to B+.  Not in the same class
as Tesla or high-end cars, but absolutely competes within its class as
far as usability.

>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message ------
> From: "Jamie K via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 13-Nov-15 9:26:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...
>
>> On 11/13/15 10:13 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote:
>>> On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:
>>>> On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
>>>>> Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine
>>>>> sound
>>>>> from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
>>>> typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying,
>>>> some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.
>>> My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
>>> I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else
>>> comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy instrumentation
>>> and crappy manufacturer support.
>>
>> The main instrumentation complaint was addressed in the 2013+ models
>> when they added a useful percentage-of-charge display option. I've
>> read that the guess-o-meter was also improved to be less sporadic.
>>
>> So, better instrumentation is one reason to consider 2013+ models
>> over 2011/12 models.
>>
>> The biggest 

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 13, 2015, at 10:53 AM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> Most
> manufacturers spec a too low tire pressure so that you get a soft and
> quiet ride, but pump the tires to the pressure that they have a long
> life (you can easily have a difference of 2 times in tire life, between
> recommended and optimal pressure!) and the ride becomes harsher and
> noisier.

Perhaps getting even further off-topic...but are there any preferred strategies 
amongst those here for optimizing tire pressure?

I'm currently planning on using one of those cheap infrared gun-type devices to 
measure the temperature gradient across the tread and adjusting the pressure 
until it's as even as possible -- increase the pressure if the center of the 
tread is cooler than the outside edges, decrease it if the opposite. And, of 
course, measuring the temperature by the side of the road right after a few 
minutes of typical driving.

Any better suggestions...?

b&
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 801 bytes
Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Jamie K via EV]

On 11/13/15 10:37 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

This is getting OT but I want to point out that the instrumentation
issue goes beyond the SOC meter.

- all buttons for radio, heat, settings, etc. look virtually identical;
you have to memorize them before you can safely drive the car.  All
labels are text with no or minimal graphics, so you have to actually
read them rather than identify by shape or icon.


True, but the physical control grouping is mostly helpful and easy to 
become accustomed to, for me. Radio controls on the left (except for 
tuning controls), menu stuff on the right. The temp controls are color 
coded.


On the left side of the dash, left of the wheel, I don't change those 
controls while driving except steering wheel heat, which is a bit 
awkward since it's to the right of that group and behind the wheel.


Here's a pic that shows the top part of the center dash controls:

http://www.nissanusa.com/content/dam/nissan/vehicles/2016/leaf/colors-photos/interior-photos/004_large.jpg


- in order to view the temperature setting you have to change the
temperature - you can't just view the current setting.


True, although if you have the status screen showing, the temp display 
may persist (I'll have to look next time I drive).



- There is no virtual (on screen) buttons for graphically setting which
vents should blow air - you have to cycle through.  Well, sort of -
there are some convoluted operations for turning on defrost...


True, there's one button for cycling through the vent options, and the 
screen shows the options as you are cycling.


There's a separate button for windshield defrost and another for rear 
window defrost, that's easy enough. To get heat to hit the windshield 
ongoing, the cycling button isn't that hard to use.



- The steering wheel controls have micro sized font on them which can
only be seen in direct sunlight.


True, but the control grouping/physical locations make them easy to use, 
once you know what they do.



- The map application is utterly useless.  I won't enumerate here but I
can probably list a dozen significant faults.


I use it rarely, but it can be useful for seeing the names of cross 
streets coming up. If I didn't have my phone I'd use it more, but the 
phone is better.



- The car has two clocks which run entirely independently and must be
set through two different mechanisms.


Good point.


- Settings, such as the resetting the trip odometer or the average
mile/kwh, are controlled from a small obscure panel below and to the
left of the steering wheel. Very hard to see and there are only four
buttons so you spend a lot of time clicking to cycle through options.
Not a good idea to do while you're driving.


True. I only really use the upper left button, and rarely, since I 
mostly leave it on the percentage-of-charge display option.



- What else?  These are off the top of my head !


Setting the timers is a bit cumbersome.

So yes, the LEAF's dash could be improved. I don't find it to be 
horrible, though. What car has nailed these issues for comparison sake? 
What should Nissan look to as an example of dash controls done right?


For me, the 2013+ percent-of-charge display is something I would really 
miss in the 2011/12 models.


And despite some valid criticisms, I think the heat/AC, radio and cruise 
controls (what I use most often), are reasonably easy to find and 
operate. I wouldn't dissuade anyone from buying a LEAF based on the dash 
controls.


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com



Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Jamie K via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 13-Nov-15 9:26:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...


On 11/13/15 10:13 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine
sound
from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying,
some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else
comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy instrumentation
and crappy manufacturer support.


The main instrumentation complaint was addressed in the 2013+ models
when they added a useful percentage-of-charge display option. I've
read that the guess-o-meter was also improved to be less sporadic.

So, better instrumentation is one reason to consider 2013+ models over
2011/12 models.

The biggest complaints about manufacturer support likely come from
owners of 2011/12 models in hot climates where battery degradation was
a problem. From comments on foru

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Ed was so gracious to allow me to test-drive his Leaf, must have been
more than 2 years ago, and the impression that I came away with is that
it pretty much drives very similar to my Prius, even including the
slight motor whine which I find interesting but not a problem at all, an
ICE makes more sound than that motor whine and this is a way of the car
telling me that it is working for me - an ICE revs up and shakes; an
electric produces a slight whine.
Initially when driving my Prius around and hearing that whine, I had to
check my mirrors to see whether this was a police siren as the pitch and
the change of the sound can occasionally sound similar to that, but now
I recognise the faint sound and welcome it as part of the sounds that my
Hybrid makes, especially when delivering its instant torque or regen
braking
and I suspect that are also the moments that the Leaf sound will be most
noticeable.
Having driven a Hybrid (Prius) and EV for most of my daily driving in
the past 12 years, I am always surprised how much more noise a regular
ICE vehicle makes and how I in my EV am sitting in total quiet and even
hear the motor of Hybrids around me turn off while waiting at the light
while people in their noisy ICE need to turn the volume of music or
hands free phone conversation way up to hear their partners, while I can
have a conversation at normal low volume in my car. That is probably
also why the Leaf seems noisy, because it does not have a noise maker to
cover the road noise.

Besides that it can contribute as to what tires you are running, I have
had different experiences with different tires on the same car. Most
manufacturers spec a too low tire pressure so that you get a soft and
quiet ride, but pump the tires to the pressure that they have a long
life (you can easily have a difference of 2 times in tire life, between
recommended and optimal pressure!) and the ride becomes harsher and
noisier. Besides that, some tires are noisier by design (not deliberate,
but they are).
I have just installed new tires on my Prius and am still surprised how
much quieter this tire is compared to the old ones.

Regards,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jamie K via EV
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 9:09 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
> Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine
sound
> from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.

I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a 
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying, some

may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

It does have an added whistle added at low speeds to alert pedestrians 
outside the car (switchable on 2011/12 models), which is not 
particularly noticeable inside the car. Sadly, there is no option to 
select a "Jetsons" spaceship sound for the pedestrian warning. :^)

> Also, excessive road noise
> due to lack of insulation.

The road noise level doesn't seem excessive compared to similar 
hatchbacks. Overall the LEAF is a fairly quiet car, nicer for music 
listening than our gasmobile.

> My suggestion, is take a look at the Ford Focus
> which makes no noise. It only has a 23kwh battery like the 2015 Leaf,
but is
> more efficient in energy use.

The Focus is a nice looking car. Perhaps it's quieter, I don't know I 
haven't had the chance to ride in one. I think the Ford was the first EV

to support 6.6kW charging which may have influenced Nissan to add that 
feature.

We considered the Focus EV. Where the Ford EV falls short is: lack of 
trunk space (due to their battery configuration as a converted Focus 
rather than built-for-EV design); and lack of faster level 3 charging. 
Perhaps since it was a project driven more by a supplier rather than 
Ford itself it seems stuck in time without much improvement since it was

introduced. What are Ford's EV plans going forward? Will Ford step up 
with a purpose-built EV with more interior space, increased range and 
faster charging to keep up with the competition or will they let Nissan,

Kia and others continue to eat their lunch?

Cheers,
  -Jamie
  www.JamieKrutz.com


> --
> View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Willie2 via EV]

On 11/13/2015 11:37 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


- The car has two clocks which run entirely independently and must be 
set through two different mechanisms.


- Settings, such as the resetting the trip odometer or the average 
mile/kwh, are controlled from a small obscure panel below and to the 
left of the steering wheel. Very hard to see and there are only four 
buttons so you spend a lot of time clicking to cycle through options.  
Not a good idea to do while you're driving.


- What else?  These are off the top of my head !

Ah!  Peri, you bring back memories!  Thrilled at having a reliable 
electric car, I was able to overlook all that stuff.  Nissan lost me 
when they told me my 60 mile battery was "normal" and that they would 
not fix it.  My car went from ~90 miles of range to ~60 miles in 20k 
miles and two years.


Tesla has some faults but crappy battery, crappy instrumentation, and 
crappy manufacturer support is not among them.


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Peri Hartman via EV]

This is getting OT but I want to point out that the instrumentation 
issue goes beyond the SOC meter.


- all buttons for radio, heat, settings, etc. look virtually identical; 
you have to memorize them before you can safely drive the car.  All 
labels are text with no or minimal graphics, so you have to actually 
read them rather than identify by shape or icon.


- in order to view the temperature setting you have to change the 
temperature - you can't just view the current setting.


- There is no virtual (on screen) buttons for graphically setting which 
vents should blow air - you have to cycle through.  Well, sort of - 
there are some convoluted operations for turning on defrost...


- The steering wheel controls have micro sized font on them which can 
only be seen in direct sunlight.


- The map application is utterly useless.  I won't enumerate here but I 
can probably list a dozen significant faults.


- The car has two clocks which run entirely independently and must be 
set through two different mechanisms.


- Settings, such as the resetting the trip odometer or the average 
mile/kwh, are controlled from a small obscure panel below and to the 
left of the steering wheel. Very hard to see and there are only four 
buttons so you spend a lot of time clicking to cycle through options.  
Not a good idea to do while you're driving.


- What else?  These are off the top of my head !

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Jamie K via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 13-Nov-15 9:26:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...


On 11/13/15 10:13 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine
sound
from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying,
some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else
comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy instrumentation
and crappy manufacturer support.


The main instrumentation complaint was addressed in the 2013+ models 
when they added a useful percentage-of-charge display option. I've read 
that the guess-o-meter was also improved to be less sporadic.


So, better instrumentation is one reason to consider 2013+ models over 
2011/12 models.


The biggest complaints about manufacturer support likely come from 
owners of 2011/12 models in hot climates where battery degradation was 
a problem. From comments on forums, some feel their problem was 
eventually resolved with extended warranty battery replacement with the 
"lizard" battery, but others don't feel Nissan really stepped up.


Battery issues may be another reason to favor 2013+ models, for those 
in hotter climates.


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com




___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)





___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Jamie K via EV]

On 11/13/15 10:13 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine
sound
from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying,
some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else
comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy instrumentation
and crappy manufacturer support.


The main instrumentation complaint was addressed in the 2013+ models 
when they added a useful percentage-of-charge display option. I've read 
that the guess-o-meter was also improved to be less sporadic.


So, better instrumentation is one reason to consider 2013+ models over 
2011/12 models.


The biggest complaints about manufacturer support likely come from 
owners of 2011/12 models in hot climates where battery degradation was a 
problem. From comments on forums, some feel their problem was eventually 
resolved with extended warranty battery replacement with the "lizard" 
battery, but others don't feel Nissan really stepped up.


Battery issues may be another reason to favor 2013+ models, for those in 
hotter climates.


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com




___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 13, 2015, at 10:22 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Maybe Ben's is a special case.  Could have some loose transformer windings, 
> which I understand are the primary cause of whining.

Not my case! First I heard of an objectionable sound from the Leaf was 
Cruisin's warning. Every time my parents take me somewhere, I still can't get 
over how quiet it is

b&
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 801 bytes
Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Yeah, pretty minima whining.  There's a slight high pitch whine - maybe 
8 - 10K?  Not real high.  And it's pretty low volume.  I can't hear it 
with the windows up but, with the windows down and at very low speeds, I 
can.  After about 10mph the road noise drowns it out - and there isn't 
much road noise at 10mph.


Maybe Ben's is a special case.  Could have some loose transformer 
windings, which I understand are the primary cause of whining.


The instrumentation and visibility are the two major drawbacks.  Great 
car otherwise.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie2 via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 13-Nov-15 9:13:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...


On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine 
sound

from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a 
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying, 
some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else 
comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy instrumentation 
and crappy manufacturer support.

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)





___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 13, 2015, at 10:12 AM, allan bullock  wrote:

> Check the reviews like consumer reports. It is down rated due to the motor
> whine. It is loudest at around 55mph, very noticeable.

That may be part of it. It's my parent's car, and I don't remember spending any 
significant amount of time on the freeway in it.

> Road noise is excessive compared to other
> EV's.

That may well be true...but _cabin_ noise compared to other _vehicles_ 
(non-electric) is practically nonexistent.

If the complaint is that it's the loudest EV on the road, but even the loudest 
EV is still one of the quietest cars on the road...well

b&
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 801 bytes
Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Willie2 via EV]

On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine 
sound

from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a 
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying, 
some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else 
comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy instrumentation 
and crappy manufacturer support.

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Jamie K via EV]

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine sound
from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a 
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying, some 
may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.


It does have an added whistle added at low speeds to alert pedestrians 
outside the car (switchable on 2011/12 models), which is not 
particularly noticeable inside the car. Sadly, there is no option to 
select a "Jetsons" spaceship sound for the pedestrian warning. :^)



Also, excessive road noise
due to lack of insulation.


The road noise level doesn't seem excessive compared to similar 
hatchbacks. Overall the LEAF is a fairly quiet car, nicer for music 
listening than our gasmobile.



My suggestion, is take a look at the Ford Focus
which makes no noise. It only has a 23kwh battery like the 2015 Leaf, but is
more efficient in energy use.


The Focus is a nice looking car. Perhaps it's quieter, I don't know I 
haven't had the chance to ride in one. I think the Ford was the first EV 
to support 6.6kW charging which may have influenced Nissan to add that 
feature.


We considered the Focus EV. Where the Ford EV falls short is: lack of 
trunk space (due to their battery configuration as a converted Focus 
rather than built-for-EV design); and lack of faster level 3 charging. 
Perhaps since it was a project driven more by a supplier rather than 
Ford itself it seems stuck in time without much improvement since it was 
introduced. What are Ford's EV plans going forward? Will Ford step up 
with a purpose-built EV with more interior space, increased range and 
faster charging to keep up with the competition or will they let Nissan, 
Kia and others continue to eat their lunch?


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com



--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/2016-30kWh-Leaf-Best-year-to-buy-tp4678642p4678653.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 13, 2015, at 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV  wrote:

> Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine sound
> from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.

Strange. I haven't noticed it at all.

> Also, excessive road noise
> due to lack of insulation.

It might have higher levels of road noise than other cars...but it has nearly 
no engine noise. Overall, I find it a _very_ quiet car. Indeed, stop at a 
traffic light and all you can hear are all the other cars around you; roll down 
the windows and all you hear is the wind and surrounding traffic.

b&

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 801 bytes
Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

[Cruisin via EV]

Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine sound
from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people. Also, excessive road noise
due to lack of insulation. My suggestion, is take a look at the Ford Focus
which makes no noise. It only has a 23kwh battery like the 2015 Leaf, but is
more efficient in energy use. 

--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/2016-30kWh-Leaf-Best-year-to-buy-tp4678642p4678653.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)