Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[ROBERT via EV]

Lee, Excellent comments.  Thank you.  Bob Hensley.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 7:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

ROBERT via EV wrote:
> Maybe it is time we all get a beer, sit back, cool off, relax, and
> take a break.

That's fine. But, we should also expect stormy weather, and start
thinking about how we are going to prepare for it!

> As to the death of EVs, I do not think it will happen because of the
> following:
>
> (1) Tesla has shown that a manufacturer can produce a saleable EV and
> make a profit.  The other auto manufacturers cannot let Tesla be the
> only game in town.

Even though Tesla is the most successful EV producer in the past 50
years, they've only produced a very small number of cars, for a tiny
sliver of the automotive market. They are a smaller player than Porsche,
Ferrari, etc. (whom the auto companies also basically ignore).

Tesla is also not yet profitable. They've reported about a $6/share loss
over the past year. Their best quarter was only a $0.15/share profit.

The Tesla is a great car, and I'm rooting for them as "my team". But I
also have to be realistic and recognize that their chances of surviving
are still pretty slim.

> (2) CA and other places have enacted zero car emission requirements.

Except that these standards were gutted immediately after the last
Republican president took office. It happened before; it could happen again.

> (3) Some people that have purchased EVs as ICE replacements the last
> few years like the cars.

True; but the auto companies dumped them anyway. Remember, car companies
sell to their *dealers*, not the public. They cater to what their
*dealers* want. And dealers generally do not like or want EVs.

> (4) Some countries such as China and India, who have a lot of people,
> have low oil reserves.  They will continue to develop EVs and
> alternative energy.

Yes, they will. And none of them can be imported to the USA without
expensive custom re-design and testing.

> (5) There is a segment of the population that has always liked EVs
> and alternative energy and they have money to buy the products.

That's Tesla's market. They can continue to hold that market; but it
won't affect the automotive market in general.

I like EVs! But I'm no 1%er, and will never be able to afford a Tesla.
But I did get a Nissan Leaf, thanks to the deep discounts, rebates, and
tax credits that were available.

> I would say the genie is out of its bottle and it is not going back
> into the bottle.  They were able to kill the EV1 because it was only
> a single genie based on a single state requirement.

Actually, all the automakers had EVs out then, and other states had them
as well (Massachusetts, Georgia, Arizona, etc.) But you will notice that
the winners have essentially re-written history -- the average person's
view is that it never happened.

> a change in the administration in DC may slow down the
> electrification of transportation but it cannot stop it.
>
> Therefore, lets move on to what needs to be done to move forward.

I believe they *can* stop it. That is why it's important for EVers to
get organized, before we get trampled to death again!

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
www.sunrise-ev.com<http://www.sunrise-ev.com>
The Sunrise EV2 Project<http://www.sunrise-ev.com/>
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric 
vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance 
electric ...


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161113/1c7d8c4f/attachment.htm>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[Home via EV]

One of the things to take into consideration is that we passed peak 
conventional oil production in 2005.  Any increase in replacement reserves will 
be increasingly more expensive with respect to salary growth going forward.  As 
we burn through cheap gasoline and supplies are drawn down, we will eventually 
have to replace it with the expensive stuff.  It maybe some time before that 
happens.  EVs are more of a solution than ICEs will ever be.  I think the 
powers that be know this and will feed their decision to Trump.  We have to 
figure out their game plan.  It may not be obvious or long lived. 
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[Lee Hart via EV]

ROBERT via EV wrote:

Maybe it is time we all get a beer, sit back, cool off, relax, and
take a break.


That's fine. But, we should also expect stormy weather, and start 
thinking about how we are going to prepare for it!



As to the death of EVs, I do not think it will happen because of the
following:

(1) Tesla has shown that a manufacturer can produce a saleable EV and
make a profit.  The other auto manufacturers cannot let Tesla be the
only game in town.


Even though Tesla is the most successful EV producer in the past 50 
years, they've only produced a very small number of cars, for a tiny 
sliver of the automotive market. They are a smaller player than Porsche, 
Ferrari, etc. (whom the auto companies also basically ignore).


Tesla is also not yet profitable. They've reported about a $6/share loss 
over the past year. Their best quarter was only a $0.15/share profit.


The Tesla is a great car, and I'm rooting for them as "my team". But I 
also have to be realistic and recognize that their chances of surviving 
are still pretty slim.



(2) CA and other places have enacted zero car emission requirements.


Except that these standards were gutted immediately after the last 
Republican president took office. It happened before; it could happen again.



(3) Some people that have purchased EVs as ICE replacements the last
few years like the cars.


True; but the auto companies dumped them anyway. Remember, car companies 
sell to their *dealers*, not the public. They cater to what their 
*dealers* want. And dealers generally do not like or want EVs.



(4) Some countries such as China and India, who have a lot of people,
have low oil reserves.  They will continue to develop EVs and
alternative energy.


Yes, they will. And none of them can be imported to the USA without 
expensive custom re-design and testing.



(5) There is a segment of the population that has always liked EVs
and alternative energy and they have money to buy the products.


That's Tesla's market. They can continue to hold that market; but it 
won't affect the automotive market in general.


I like EVs! But I'm no 1%er, and will never be able to afford a Tesla. 
But I did get a Nissan Leaf, thanks to the deep discounts, rebates, and 
tax credits that were available.



I would say the genie is out of its bottle and it is not going back
into the bottle.  They were able to kill the EV1 because it was only
a single genie based on a single state requirement.


Actually, all the automakers had EVs out then, and other states had them 
as well (Massachusetts, Georgia, Arizona, etc.) But you will notice that 
the winners have essentially re-written history -- the average person's 
view is that it never happened.



a change in the administration in DC may slow down the
electrification of transportation but it cannot stop it.

Therefore, lets move on to what needs to be done to move forward.


I believe they *can* stop it. That is why it's important for EVers to 
get organized, before we get trampled to death again!


--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

 
One recommendation by the auto manufacturers can make environmental sense - 
better coordination of the myriad of agencies that regulate the OEMs.
Having more than one agency with some responsibility under one regulation makes 
for difficulty. EPA had real challenges with the latest GHG regs.
Sent from AltaMail


 From: Rush Dougherty via EV  To: "EVDL"  
Subject: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War - Date: 11/12/16, 
9:09 AM

 
http://insideevs.com/automakers-ask-trump-to-ease-emissions-rules-ev-mandates-ge
 
t-ready-for-a-war/ 
 
It looks like Inside EV's thinks that the EV road is going to be full of 
potholes in the future... 
 
For those of you that actually want EV's, you might read the article. For those 
of you hypocritical EV 'proponents' that speak with 'forked tongues', just 
continue thinking that everything is alright until the OEM Auto manufactures 
(except Tesla of course) come and take your EV and crush it... 
 
This has happened in the past if you didn't know or have forgotten, EV's were 
reprocessed and crushed... 
 
Rush Dougherty 
Tucson AZ 85719 
 
 
 
 
___ 
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub 
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org 
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ 
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) 
 

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Easy, folks.  I know there's a lot of concern and consternation abroad, yea 
verily a lot of anger -- but please, I ask you again to be careful about 
partisan politics in your posts.

We're headed for trouble here in the US, largely because politicians have 
for decades been pushing an us-versus-them agenda.  They demonize and 
dehumanize people who have different goals and convictions.  We've seen 
where that gets you in Rwanda, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and far too many 
other places.

Here in America we've already fought one civil war. Don't think it can't 
happen again.  For some self-styled "warriors," EVs and even "greenish" 
ICEVs mark us as the enemy.  Keep your wits about you.

This is only one element of the degeneration of our society, but it's one 
that we have some control over right here on the EVDL.  Please, let's 
concentrate on what we have in common -- the conviction that EVs are good 
for us and for society in general -- not on what divides us.

The EVDL remains one of the most civil places on an increasingly hateful 
post-truth internet.  Let's keep it that way.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Thanks Rush,
I have been warning people about the deception by Prager "University"
for a while now and people still find and repost the videos they make 
(since they are only an online PR organisation for Mr Prager's agenda
that is indeed deceptively slick. He apparently saw how effective real
grass-roots organisations were and is now copying the approach for
pushing his agenda.
So, as usual - be warned about what you see and read on Internet, do
your own research and always question statements and conclusions until
you find verifyable references.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rush Dougherty
via EV
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 10:31 AM
To: 'Peri Hartman'; 'EVDL'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

Peri -

Good for you for 'skimming' the article, but I've always found that the
best way 
to understand what is actually being written is to 'read' the article.

So yup, you sure missed 'any mention', because it wasn't in there!

Read what I said again, you'll see that I never mentioned that the
article said 
that cars were going to be reprocessed. I said that it had happened in
the past, 
if you didn't know or had forgotten. I was informing you of an act that
actually 
happened in the past or reminding you of that fact if you happened to
let it slip 
your mind...

Kidding aside, it is getting more and more important to read the full
article and 
then discern what is actually being said - an example is that on FB
somebody 
posted a link to a video by PragerU that was slick and seemingly
positive about 
why we need the Electoral College. I looked a little more into PragerU
and found 
that the founder is a very very right wing conservative 
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/05/01/fracking-titans-bankrolling-
right-wing-indoctrination-effort-schools-investigation 
that gets massive $$ from the fracking industry and puts out videos that
on the 
surface look great, but when you really listen to what they are saying,
they are 
pushing their own agenda and are very deceptive.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: Peri Hartman [mailto:pe...@kotatko.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 10:16 AM
> To: Rush Dougherty; EVDL
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -
>
> Perhaps I missed it while skimming the article, but I didn't see any
mention of 
> crushing
> vehicles who's title has been transferred to the "owner". When I got
my Leaf, I 
> read the
> agreement and I am certain it did not give Nissan any allowance to
repo the 
> vehicle, other
> than for non payment.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "EVDL" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc:
> Sent: 12-Nov-16 9:09:17 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -
>
>
>http://insideevs.com/automakers-ask-trump-to-ease-emissions-rules-ev-ma
> >ndates-ge
> >t-ready-for-a-war/
> >
> >It looks like Inside EV's thinks that the EV road is going to be full
> >of potholes in the future...
> >
> >For those of you that actually want EV's, you might read the article.
> >For those
> >of you hypocritical EV 'proponents' that speak with 'forked tongues',
> >just continue thinking that everything is alright until the OEM Auto
> >manufactures (except Tesla of course) come and take your EV and crush
> >it...
> >
> >This has happened in the past if you didn't know or have forgotten,
> >EV's were reprocessed and crushed...
> >
> >Rush Dougherty
> >Tucson AZ 85719
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >___
> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV
drag
> >racing at NEDRA
> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Peri -

Good for you for 'skimming' the article, but I've always found that the best 
way 
to understand what is actually being written is to 'read' the article.

So yup, you sure missed 'any mention', because it wasn't in there!

Read what I said again, you'll see that I never mentioned that the article said 
that cars were going to be reprocessed. I said that it had happened in the 
past, 
if you didn't know or had forgotten. I was informing you of an act that 
actually 
happened in the past or reminding you of that fact if you happened to let it 
slip 
your mind...

Kidding aside, it is getting more and more important to read the full article 
and 
then discern what is actually being said - an example is that on FB somebody 
posted a link to a video by PragerU that was slick and seemingly positive about 
why we need the Electoral College. I looked a little more into PragerU and 
found 
that the founder is a very very right wing conservative 
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/05/01/fracking-titans-bankrolling-right-wing-indoctrination-effort-schools-investigation
 
that gets massive $$ from the fracking industry and puts out videos that on the 
surface look great, but when you really listen to what they are saying, they 
are 
pushing their own agenda and are very deceptive.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: Peri Hartman [mailto:pe...@kotatko.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 10:16 AM
> To: Rush Dougherty; EVDL
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -
>
> Perhaps I missed it while skimming the article, but I didn't see any mention 
> of 
> crushing
> vehicles who's title has been transferred to the "owner". When I got my Leaf, 
> I 
> read the
> agreement and I am certain it did not give Nissan any allowance to repo the 
> vehicle, other
> than for non payment.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "EVDL" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc:
> Sent: 12-Nov-16 9:09:17 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -
>
> >http://insideevs.com/automakers-ask-trump-to-ease-emissions-rules-ev-ma
> >ndates-ge
> >t-ready-for-a-war/
> >
> >It looks like Inside EV's thinks that the EV road is going to be full
> >of potholes in the future...
> >
> >For those of you that actually want EV's, you might read the article.
> >For those
> >of you hypocritical EV 'proponents' that speak with 'forked tongues',
> >just continue thinking that everything is alright until the OEM Auto
> >manufactures (except Tesla of course) come and take your EV and crush
> >it...
> >
> >This has happened in the past if you didn't know or have forgotten,
> >EV's were reprocessed and crushed...
> >
> >Rush Dougherty
> >Tucson AZ 85719
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >___
> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> >racing at NEDRA
> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[Marco Gaxiola via EV]

I guess Rush meant 'crushed' in a figured way because those crushed cars in
the 90's were leased and never owned.

But I think most of you intelligent people must know that there are many
ways of having you EVs 'crushed' by government not neccessarly by taking it
to a crusher machine...

..my comment:)


Marco Gaxiola
EnergyEV.com



On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Perhaps I missed it while skimming the article, but I didn't see any
> mention of crushing vehicles who's title has been transferred to the
> "owner". When I got my Leaf, I read the agreement and I am certain it did
> not give Nissan any allowance to repo the vehicle, other than for non
> payment.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" 
> To: "EVDL" 
> Cc:
> Sent: 12-Nov-16 9:09:17 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -
>
> http://insideevs.com/automakers-ask-trump-to-ease-emissions-
>> rules-ev-mandates-ge
>> t-ready-for-a-war/
>>
>> It looks like Inside EV's thinks that the EV road is going to be full of
>> potholes in the future...
>>
>> For those of you that actually want EV's, you might read the article. For
>> those
>> of you hypocritical EV 'proponents' that speak with 'forked tongues', just
>> continue thinking that everything is alright until the OEM Auto
>> manufactures
>> (except Tesla of course) come and take your EV and crush it...
>>
>> This has happened in the past if you didn't know or have forgotten, EV's
>> were
>> reprocessed and crushed...
>>
>> Rush Dougherty
>> Tucson AZ 85719
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>> /NEDRA)
>>
>>
>>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> /NEDRA)
>
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Perhaps I missed it while skimming the article, but I didn't see any 
mention of crushing vehicles who's title has been transferred to the 
"owner". When I got my Leaf, I read the agreement and I am certain it 
did not give Nissan any allowance to repo the vehicle, other than for 
non payment.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" 
To: "EVDL" 
Cc:
Sent: 12-Nov-16 9:09:17 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Inside EV's headline - Get Ready For A War -


http://insideevs.com/automakers-ask-trump-to-ease-emissions-rules-ev-mandates-ge
t-ready-for-a-war/

It looks like Inside EV's thinks that the EV road is going to be full 
of

potholes in the future...

For those of you that actually want EV's, you might read the article. 
For those
of you hypocritical EV 'proponents' that speak with 'forked tongues', 
just
continue thinking that everything is alright until the OEM Auto 
manufactures

(except Tesla of course) come and take your EV and crush it...

This has happened in the past if you didn't know or have forgotten, 
EV's were

reprocessed and crushed...

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719




___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)





___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)