RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 11:03 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/7/2013 9:57 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: So if Florida repeals it's law giving the right to stand your ground, we will all be living in a tyranny? I am not sure I get the point you are trying to make? As far as it matter my opinion on stand your ground laws and those who advocate for them is: that anybody who believes it is okay to murder another human being because they feel threatened is an utter asshole. If they are threatened with bodily harm or death? Don't you think self-defense is human right? Even Hobbes recognized that right, and he didn't recognize many. The question is whether the person threatened has an obligation to flee. And it ain't murder if it's legal. Did I say that? Stand your ground goes a lot further than justifiable self-defense. Self-defense is one thing; stand your ground something else entirely. The two should not be confused of conflated. Self-defense is when one has no alternative but to take potentially lethal action. That does not include feeling threatened. This does not rise to the level of imminence and actual threat that can merit lethality. Does anyone have the right to murder someone - because an immoral legalization of murder does not wipe the stench of sin from the act and the perpetrator of the crime. I am sure Hitler had very much legalized the many bad acts of the Nazi Party; where they therefore not bad acts? So my point is that rights are a matter of opinion, the ethical opinion of society. Legal rights have expanded most places. Women have more rights than they did when I was a kid. So do blacks and homosexuals. But when they didn't have those rights, it didn't mean that nobody had any rights. And we still don't give minors full rights. Bruno seems to think if we just legalize all drugs that will fix everything, but I wonder if he intends that children should smoke pot and drink whiskey? Morality and any opinion or argument that involves judgments being made on others must per force be contextual. Perhaps there is some absolute morality, but when this notion falls into human hands we get Torquemada. Ethical things must be seen in their contextual fabric. I agree with Bruno - all drugs should be legalized. This is not the realm of law. The hundred years of prohibition have succeeded only in spawning an era of global crime syndicates amassing wealth, power and control; and of the subverting of our political and federal level secret security state organizations into colluding with this dark world that has been created by and is nurtured by the Prohibition. The global narcotics trade is huge; it has been going on for a long time - the British Opium pushers come to mind. Prohibition is a guaranteed profits engine for crime syndicates - that work in a covert manner with central intelligence agencies, which benefit from large rivers of illicit - off the books - funds. Prohibition has corrupted our culture and government; it has polluted our banking financial system and pretty much every sector of our economy. Drug money has been sloshing around the US from the early Prohibition against alcohol. The subsequent prohibitions, which by the way has crushed the lives of millions of people who have been thrown into prison some to be raped and psychologically broken for having a little pot. Prohibition is in the service of dark forces on this earth; it wraps itself with LOUDLY proclaimed noble intent while its actual effects are the very opposite. The war on drugs was the first perpetual war, begun by Nixon. It goes on, and on, and on. propelled forward by a fig leaf of moral intent that masks a very dark enterprise indeed. Ending the era of Prohibition will not mean kids will start smoking pot.. Hint they already are, and have been for a long time. Ending this dark era of Prohibition will mean that the greatest illicit funding engine ever devised will shut down and the global crime syndicates revenue streams will dry up. Hence the resistance to ending this era of Prohibition will be violent and formidable. How far and how deep is the reach of the global crime syndicates by now - fattened by many generations of drug profits that have been laundered and given such a clean fresh smell, infecting every sector of the economy? How deep do the tentacles go; after this forty year long war on drugs. Where does all that money end? End Prohibition; take the black money out of it; starve the global crime syndicates.. That sounds pretty good to me. Chris Brent Health food definitions: natural: anything made from soy (e.g., soy milk and soy burgers) non-natural: anything made from meat (e.g. hamburgers, people) supernatural: anything made from marijuana --- Mark Scandariato -- You received this message
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
On 07 Nov 2013, at 16:47, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Now, the question, of questions. Can our minds/personality which produces ideas, transcends our tissue and bones? Yes. Since, we are speaking science here, and science is concerned with explaining How things work, exist, we will need to answer How? Empirically, our bones and tissues quantum states are only the marks of our most probable computational histories. Our minds and personality exists, in infinitely many exemplars in arithmetic, out-of- time and out of spacewhich belongs to the categories of persistent universal number hallucinations. This should be easy to derive if you grasp all steps in the UD Argument, normally. NUMBERS == NUMBERS DREAMS == PHYSICAL REALITIES == HUMANS == HUMANS DREAMS = ... Bruno Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Nov 6, 2013 5:35 pm Subject: Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot? On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:26, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 1:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. But evolution implies that those are not independent of our bodies. Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: String theory in Leibniz's platonic physics
On 07 Nov 2013, at 18:51, Roger Clough wrote: String theory in Leibniz's platonic physics Strings, being massless, are Leibniz's monads (mental) in his platonic physics (see below). In platonic physics, each monad is attached to its relevant physical particle, contains information on all of the other monads (strings) in the universe. Interactions between particles are given mentally according to Leibniz's pre-established harmony. Each string or monad also has a bare naked soul which is essentially its identity and perhaps its operating system. Monads are dimensionless truth points in the platonic realm. Leibniz's Platonic Physics Leibniz's idealistic or platonic physics seems to me, a nonphysicist, to possibly obviate the need for quantum mechanics due to the preestablished harmony. I apologize for any errors. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-physics/ To partly summarize Leibniz's platonic physics: 1. Leibniz's universe is platonic or mental (Idealism) whose reality consists completely of monads, which are the mental representations (complete logical concepts, ie subjects with a complete set of predicates) of physical bodies. In what sense is a string a mental representation, or what and for who? I fail to make sense of your idea that massless = mental. Light is not a mental phenomenon. Bruno 2. Because of the nature of perception by the One, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-mind/ each monad contains the perceptions or states of all of the other monads in the universe. 2.Space and time are not monads, but their effects are representated as a pre-established harmony. essentialy a theory of mental or platonic causation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-established_harmony This is a mental map of spacetime (which itself is mental) that predicts the paths of all bodies from the beginning of the universe to the end based, on the laws of physics (Newtonian physics and particle physics). 3. Time by itself is not physical, but is, as one might expect in a platonic physics, it is perceived only as an intuition (see Kant also) and as perceived is quantized as the One can see all monads only at particular instances. Space (which does not physically exist) is mental but continuous 4. Causation in Leibniz is platonic, that is to say, completely mental, and simply follows the pattern of the pre-established harmony. In this, a monad at spacetime A (which contains the states of all of the other monads) is perceived by the One and moved to spacetime B (possibly next to A). 5. Since this physics applies to all monads (bodies or particles of any size) and these completely comprise the platonic universe, it could possibly replace quantum mechanics at small scales. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Computers, code and consciousness
On 07 Nov 2013, at 20:48, John Mikes wrote: Bruno, could you kindly tell me how could I find a universal machine? (No joke). I would LOVE to listen to them. John M Right now, you have one in front of you (more exactly: you have one incarnation of it in front of you). Then you have another one in your skull. Then all your cells are such universal machines, although they have been forced to specialized. All human beings are example of universal machine, as humans can easily emulated a universal machine. By listening to me right now, you are listening to such a machine (but logically it makes sense to say that I might be more than that, even assuming comp). All computers, in the usual mundane sense, are universal machine. All GSM are universal machines. The physical universe is also a universal machine. Actually it defines a lot of different universal machines. Fridges, bridges, houses and clocks are not universal machines, although some sophisticated models of them might be. All programming language interpreters are also example of universal machines/numbers. And they all exists in arithmetic together with their executions, (that's a theorem, no need for comp here). Bruno On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 21:31, John Mikes wrote: Bruno wrote No.6: You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. Was it a discovery, or an invention? Is thereO N E discovered machine for studying, or we just imagine how it should behave? There are many universal machine, or universal number, but they are all equivalent (and maximal) in computability and emulability abilities. They are not equivalent in provability and inductive inference abilities, although the correct one will obeys to very general mathematical laws. In fact they all have the same (rich) theologies, and they are testable as the theology contains the physics. So it is fun to listen to them, and compare with what we can observe. Bruno On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote: Computers, code and consciousness Cumputers cannot simulate human activities or experiences or consciousness because they have to deal in code. Code is not magic, have no inherent intelligence. Computers are not magic, they are just machines. Magic explains even less. Then, the closure of the computable functions for diagonalization introduces the magic of self-reference, in the different points of view. Computers can only deal in code, which is impersonal and public. They are noit experiences, but can be descruiptions of experiences, which is not the same thing. Unfortunately, experiences are personal and computers, dealing in code only, have no access to them. They have access to their own code, but they are confronted to Truth, also. They have the same difficulty than us to relate truth and code. Why must I keep explaining this ? You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. That changes everything. The universal machine have a rich theology. Computers deal in code. At some level. Humans too. Cf DNA. People don't At some level. Machines too (cf the machine's first person). If you need to introduce magic, it means you want escape reason, but this can only lead to bad faith, wishful thinking, etc. Computer science shows that there is enough magic in reason. No need to introduce it, as this addition might hide the magic which is there. Also, your way of reasoning is invalid? If human can use magic to be conscious, why not machine? You might be underestimating God's power. Bruno Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 07 Nov 2013, at 03:42, Chris de Morsella wrote: Either all humans enjoy human rights or none do. That's the key point about human rights. The NDAA 2012 contains the dictator's trick (to abandon human right for some people). Just adding one comma would have made the NDAA acceptable, but Obama's administrartion persistently refused the change, and that means it is not a typo. To me, it is a confession. Obama just admit he is a terrorist of some sort. As soon as a class of persons is created that are stripped of their basic human rights society is on a slippery slope down into the dark hell of totalitarianism. This brings up the paradox of crime punishment. Whenever a person is punished by society in some way and their rights are restricted this creates a risk. Now obviously some people need to be imprisoned – not nearly as many as are in fact imprisoned, but some people are violent anti-social and commit harm on others. But once someone has paid their price and done their time if they are then – as they are in this country – permanently stripped of their civic rights (felons cannot vote – or own guns as well -- in most states in the USA) it gets into the area of creating a sub- human class of persons. We are all people… even our enemies… even the worst amongst us; when we deny this, we deny our own humanity. Yes. Indeed. That is why everyone, in a working democracy, has the right to remain silent, to get an attorney, etc. I can accept exception in war time, or in some very special circumstances, for a limited number of days. But those have to be quite exceptional, secret, and not something we should ever be proud of. I can accept the idea of torturing someone to find a bomb and save 500 children, for example, like in the 24 series, but that must be very exceptional, and very circumstancial. Bruno -Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 2:52 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:45, Chris de Morsella wrote: Exactly. Already the techniques of social engineering are far more advanced than they were even as recently as Goebbels time – and he advanced the art of the Big Lie and of mass media propaganda and brought it into the modern age. Goebbels would admire and recognize our “managed free press” for what it is; he would be thrilled at how Americans have become inculcated to view the word in terms of “good guys” “bad guys” and that it is okay to torture, murder, summarily execute and commit whatever outrage against “bad guys” because they are “terrorists” and therefore do not enjoy any human rights whatsoever. Yes. The NDAA 12 use suspect of terrorist to ensure the existence of a collection of people (rather fuzzy here) which can be exempted from the human right. Goebbels, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Ceaucescu, would have applauded. Goebbels, Hitler, Stalin would all nod their nasty heads in approval at how we now have a so called “Patriot” act that strips of habeas corpus – a right wrested from the aristocracy of the middle ages; how we have become a nation of secret courts and secret “justice”. And all the while the great dumbed down masses of this country whilst they belch their no nutrition television dinner watching their mind massaging TV programming very loudly believe they are the most free, special, superior being that ever lived in history…. American exceptionalism. They have been, and by many tokens still are, but the erosion is quick, and on some key point, they lost worst than freedom, they lost the information, and get lied, and so it takes time to realize that. The understanding of how the mind works and of how to vector in drugs to it and the mass acceptance of mass medication has reached the point where it is not out of the realm of the possible for a happy pill to be developed and then – taken to the logical conclusion of even further miniaturization and delivery as an aerosol. The only reason that this country has these angry tea party types and the right wing (often racist and weirdly KKKristian) militias is because they are useful tools for the plutocrats. They are America’s brownshirts and though they may be surprised are acting as tools for the narrow interests of the plutocrats who fund them, who yank their strings and who make them dance to whatever tune suits their current tactical needs. In America the plutocrats have perfected the art of social engineering – and Americans genuinely do believe they are free and that anybody can be president (and that if you do not make it in this rapacious greed driven society, it’s your own damn fault you lazy bastard) There is not going to be any revolution here… not for a long while. The owners of America have
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 07 Nov 2013, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 6:42 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Either all humans enjoy human rights or none do. Human rights are a human invention. Human inventions are a human invention. Bruno As soon as a class of persons is created that are stripped of their basic human rights society is on a slippery slope down into the dark hell of totalitarianism. Are you repeating the common political rhetoric that refers to people who have been convicted of a crime as criminals as though that defined a class, like women or laborer? I think that is a pernicious view point; one which is used to justify an us vs. them mentality and the war on crime. There is no criminal class, there are just people who have committed crimes. I commit a crime every day: exceeding the speed limit, and so do 90% of the other people on the freeway. Laws are passed with the idea and understanding that they will only be selectively enforced. This is why it is disturbing to see the proliferation of high-tech law enforcement: drones, GPS tracking, eavesdropping, cameras. People realize that there are so many laws and so many poorly crafted laws that if every violation of every law was caught and prosecuted we'd all end up in jail. And this is not due to some evil politicians plot. The same people who routinely drive 80mph on the freeway, *want* the speed limit set to 65 or 70, because those *other people* are driving too fast. The same people who smoke cigarettes want marijuana to be illegal. If you've ever been on a jury you know that most people are quick to condemn any deviation from what they consider the norm. Being liberal and tolerant doesn't come naturally. This brings up the paradox of crime punishment. Whenever a person is punished by society in some way and their rights are restricted this creates a risk. Now obviously some people need to be imprisoned – not nearly as many as are in fact imprisoned, but some people are violent anti-social and commit harm on others. Suppose they're not anti-social and not violent. They just defrauded a few million investors out of their retirement savings. Should we just let them walk free...Oh, right, we do. But once someone has paid their price and done their time if they are then – as they are in this country – permanently stripped of their civic rights (felons cannot vote – or own guns as well -- in most states in the USA) it gets into the area of creating a sub- human class of persons. In the states I know about, a felon can petition to have their voting rights reinstated. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 08 Nov 2013, at 03:44, Chris de Morsella wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 4:26 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Not to be sarcastic, but probably yes. Money from bitumin brings money for research into environmental remediation. It also helps liberate people from pouring cash into the OPEC world, which seems to only inflame Muslim passions. Plus the Canadians are world class technologists and will likely invent more efficient engines, and also fund the green technologies that you crave. Theres a reason why poor nations do not do technology well. You have a cornucopian view that we can go on making horrible messes on this planet without worrying about the consequences because somehow it will all get magically remediated yeah like that actually happens in the real world. Remediation is a cost center NOT a profit center; it is done only to the minimum level necessary in order to stay just this side of the law. You are free to say whatever you want of course, but I find it difficult to believe your hypothesis that the very same humans who profit from raping the earth will -- after the fact and after they have lined their pockets with ill-gotten wealth -- will somehow do a 180 degree turn and start behaving in the altruistic noble manner you seem so certain they will. Are you saying that the Arabs would be happier if they had no oil wealth... that all this money has made them hopping mad? I read a paper arguing in that direction, showing that Jordanian have much less tryanny thanks to the absence of oil. That makes sense. It is easier to do that type of business with Tyrant, than with elected people. Bruno Green technologies are already proving themselves -- without your plucky Canadian tar sand billionaires (some of whom are Texans by the way) deciding to invest their profits in green technology -- as if they would. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Those plucky Canadians -- as you term them -- are criminally destroying vast swaths of Alberta turning it into a poisoned chemical saturated moonscape as well as sucking up vast amounts of water from other potential uses -- including agriculture. Will the bitumen sweated out of that sand be worth the ultimate costs to get it? On Thursday, November 7, 2013 11:24 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 9:50 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:Fur sure, that was the truth. Now we got's shale gas, which seems to pay a lot better, is safer to go after, and is cleaner, carbon-wise. Unless you are buying into technological unemployment (robots, software) then we have to face the fact. BHO's Keynesian way has fallen on its ass and has stayed down, like a fighter throwing a fight, after a payoff. I've read Keynesians like Paul Krugman say that the level of stimulus was actually not enough by Keynesian standards (and too much went to tax cuts), but certainly the US economy with its level of stimulus did much better than most of the states that more thoroughly rejected Keynesianism and instead chose austerity in the midst of a recession, like the UK...see various graphs at http://graphsagainstausterity.tumblr.com/ (click on any graph to see the original article it came from) Increased government employment doesn't seem to generate tax revenue very well. Except government employment hasn't increased under Obama, it's actually been steadily decreasing during his presidency (apart from a brief spike when the decennial census was taken and they needed a lot of temporary census workers), due mostly to the Republicans in Congress, whereas under George W. Bush government employment was steadily increasing (this collapsing of the public sector is probably contributing quite a bit to the slow recovery). See the two graphs showing private sector and public sector jobs under Bush and Obama here: http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/04/public-and-private- sector-payroll-jobs-bush-and-obama.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.to post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Hi Chris, I can't agree more. If we look at the history of prohibition, it is always either a political tools, or unfair economy, or a way for bandits to steal money. In Turkey, where almost all man were smoking tobacco, a sultan decided (some centuries ago) to make it illegal for beheading its main opponents. Easy! And the problem today, is not the black money, but the grey money. We can't indeed no more separate healthy money from the money based on lies. We are all hostage of those prohibitionist bandits. Bruno On 08 Nov 2013, at 03:57, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:32 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 07 Nov 2013, at 03:32, Chris de Morsella wrote: The problem of any system ever devised is that eventually it will become corrupted – through one path or another corruption will become endemic and increasingly it will parasitize the system until eventually the empty husk of the hollowed out society collapses as all the illusions and Ponzi schemes become marked to market and no one is buying into it any longer. Systems are human creations and suffer from all the pitfalls and blindness characteristic of our species. A system organized around a Party or a Church will end up creating the same social structure of a corrupt class of successful crime families becoming entrenched at the vertices. OK. But it is always due to factual precise fact, some of them encapsulating the departure from honesty, like the closure of Plato academy in theology (and this explains a lot of our human problems today), or the prohibition in modern times, which violate the US constitution, and announces all the other violation. Sure… in the US prohibition probably did more than anything to create the culture of organized crime and to enrich the criminal syndicates to the point that now it is hard to even know how much of our economy is actually controlled by them. Dirty money pollutes markets and distorts them and drives out honest actors. In Roma there is a saying that translated more or less: “The first generation are bandits; the second generation are bankers; the third generation are politicians; and by the fourth generation a Pope.” Or the Anglo saying “Behind every great fortune there is a great crime” I think that this is misleading, as it gives the idea that money is a problem. Money is just the best way to distibute work, and enrich everyone, ... when playing with the rules. But then big amount of moeny is an incentive for unscrupulous bandits, and if they rob the society, we are soon or later in a big mess. Then we are living earth gloablization, and the bandits use it to consoldiate their business. A large part of the middle class is hostage of that situation. Money itself is just a medium of exchange; and a marker of wealth perhaps. It is not money itself, but how criminal syndicates end up controlling how it flows and how it is used. I think it is important to look at how even a system dedicated to the principle of wiping out class has invariably spawned various nationalistic red bourgeoisies (the Radish communists – red on the outside white on the inside) Look at the princelings in the PRC; or the weird family dynasty in the PRK… or the Stalinist bourgeoisie of the former USSR. Or conversely how a system purporting to be based on the teachings of Jesus Christ resulted in the sordid history of the Papacy. It does not matter much what the superficial forms of a system are, if the end outcome is invariably the same – that is the society becomes dominated by a small entrenched elite that enjoys disproportionate benefits and is concerned only with its own self- serving interests. The US constitution was well thought, and the founders were aware if how it could be violated. In particular, some of them said explicitly that prohibition would end America. I am optimist. We just need to educate people so that they understand that prohibition is a criminal technic to steal their money, and nothing else, right at the start. We light just need to better educate people (invest in school and teaching). It will take time. In my country, the green-youth have proposed that the green became officially anti-prohibitionist, but the old green were just horrified, and put the proposition under the rug. But most and most young people get the point. As long as we tolerate things like prohibition, there is just no politics at all. Prohibition is a middle-term social suicide. Like institutionalized religion is a long term spiritual suicide. We will learn. Hopefully we will. The strength of the prohibition coalition is weakening in the US – the state I live in and Colorado have both legalized the
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 08 Nov 2013, at 06:51, LizR wrote: On 7 November 2013 23:43, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Nov 2013, at 04:40, Richard Ruquist wrote: I have no idea what the information capacity of a MWI multiverse is. 0, in Gods' eye. Surely the information capacity of the multiverse is equivalent to the information needed to specify the laws of physics? It is the information you need to define addition and multiplication. OK, it is a bit more than 0. I would guess the information capacity of all possible multiverses would either be zero or perhaps whatever information is stored in maths (although I guess that could be considered as zero). It has to be a little above zero, as you cannot specify math from no axioms at all. Infinity, from inside, and our partial relative position. Surely the information capacity as seen from our particular position isn't infinite, although it is very large? I've heard the figure 10^120 bits mentioned for the visible universe, which is - I assume - all we currently have even potentially available. But the visible universe is like a dust, compared to the non visible realities ... Also, 10^120 is a very rough estimate, and makes no sense if there are continuous observable. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Is mass mental or physical ?
I need some help. Yesterday I made the claim that strings are massless and so are nonphysical (mental, by my definition). But you can show theoretically that strings have mass, based on line tension and other variables. So is mass physical ? Unless I am mistaken, mass is always defined in terms of other variables, much like in a dictionary words are defined in terms of other words.. For example, m = E/c^2, where E is energy and c is the speed of light. But energy is the ability to do work, which in turn is defined as W = F*d, where F is a force moved through distance d. But Force is mass*acceleration. So we are back wihere we started, since m =E/c*2. To me this means that we must empirically define some force like the weight of a selected and saved lump of lead as say a Newton of force, and a length given by some metal rule to be saved, and proceed from there. To me this means that all physical variables are actually nonphysical (theoretical or mental). Which is the basic foundation of idealism or platonism. Everything, even mass, is mental in the sense of being theoretical or mathematical. Is this correct ? Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: [Mind and Brain] A definition of existence (being twofold)
Hi Cass Silva I've just posted a note which argues that all physical entities or variables such as mass are theoretical and therefor mental. You might disagree. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough - Receiving the following content - From: Cass Silva Receiver: MindBrain Time: 2013-11-07, 18:49:59 Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] A definition of existence (being twofold) Does Gravity have mass? Cass On Wed, 6/11/13, Roger Clough wrote: Subject: [Mind and Brain] A definition of existence (being twofold) To: mindbr...@yahoogroups.com Cc: everything-list , - mindbr...@yahoogroups.com , theoretical_physics_board Received: Wednesday, 6 November, 2013, 1:21 AM Leibniz said that space, being massless, is a nonphysical nonentity. All that physically exists then consists of physical objects with mass-- these together with their nonphysical mental massless representations (as mind or will, consciousness, monads). Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Is mass mental or physical ?
On 08 Nov 2013, at 13:36, Roger Clough wrote: I need some help. Yesterday I made the claim that strings are massless and so are nonphysical (mental, by my definition). But you can show theoretically that strings have mass, based on line tension and other variables. So is mass physical ? Unless I am mistaken, mass is always defined in terms of other variables, much like in a dictionary words are defined in terms of other words.. For example, m = E/c^2, where E is energy and c is the speed of light. But energy is the ability to do work, which in turn is defined as W = F*d, where F is a force moved through distance d. But Force is mass*acceleration. So we are back wihere we started, since m =E/c*2. To me this means that we must empirically define some force like the weight of a selected and saved lump of lead as say a Newton of force, and a length given by some metal rule to be saved, and proceed from there. To me this means that all physical variables are actually nonphysical (theoretical or mental). Such argument would be convincing if all physical unities disappear. A less invalid argument would consist in pointing on the fact that physicists only measure relations between numbers, and invoke physical unities as part of what is inferred. This means just that primitive matter is already a theoretical inference (that we do instinctively, which is why some people take time to grasp this). But again, that would not logically entail complete immaterialism, without begging the question by interpreting the unities in some ad hoc way. Which is the basic foundation of idealism or platonism. Everything, even mass, is mental in the sense of being theoretical or mathematical. Is this correct ? It is, if you assume comp, for very specific reasons, that I have explained on this list, but you can find again by looking at the papers nin my URL. Notably: http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html Of course, I am aware that you don't like comp, but you might not have realized the impact of the discovery of the (mathematical) notion of universal machine. Bruno Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:35 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 08 Nov 2013, at 03:44, Chris de Morsella wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 4:26 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Not to be sarcastic, but probably yes. Money from bitumin brings money for research into environmental remediation. It also helps liberate people from pouring cash into the OPEC world, which seems to only inflame Muslim passions. Plus the Canadians are world class technologists and will likely invent more efficient engines, and also fund the green technologies that you crave. Theres a reason why poor nations do not do technology well. You have a cornucopian view that we can go on making horrible messes on this planet without worrying about the consequences because somehow it will all get magically remediated yeah like that actually happens in the real world. Remediation is a cost center NOT a profit center; it is done only to the minimum level necessary in order to stay just this side of the law. You are free to say whatever you want of course, but I find it difficult to believe your hypothesis that the very same humans who profit from raping the earth will -- after the fact and after they have lined their pockets with ill-gotten wealth -- will somehow do a 180 degree turn and start behaving in the altruistic noble manner you seem so certain they will. Are you saying that the Arabs would be happier if they had no oil wealth... that all this money has made them hopping mad? I read a paper arguing in that direction, showing that Jordanian have much less tryanny thanks to the absence of oil. That makes sense. It is easier to do that type of business with Tyrant, than with elected people. Sure of course, and the western powers have seen to it that tyrants are kept in place to keep the oil flowing, under regimes they can control... case in point the CIA organized coup against Prime Minister of Iran Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953. However this is a foreign imposition of presidents for life and kleptocracies such as the house of Saud. The phrase I was replying to pouring cash into the OPEC world, which seems to only inflame Muslim passions. seemed to promote various ugly stereotypes that are quite common in the western media regarding the Arab/Muslim world. I was responding to those insinuations, which dip down into a prejudicial stream I personally find rather unpleasant. Chris Bruno Green technologies are already proving themselves -- without your plucky Canadian tar sand billionaires (some of whom are Texans by the way) deciding to invest their profits in green technology -- as if they would. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Those plucky Canadians -- as you term them -- are criminally destroying vast swaths of Alberta turning it into a poisoned chemical saturated moonscape as well as sucking up vast amounts of water from other potential uses -- including agriculture. Will the bitumen sweated out of that sand be worth the ultimate costs to get it? On Thursday, November 7, 2013 11:24 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 9:50 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:Fur sure, that was the truth. Now we got's shale gas, which seems to pay a lot better, is safer to go after, and is cleaner, carbon-wise. Unless you are buying into technological unemployment (robots, software) then we have to face the fact. BHO's Keynesian way has fallen on its ass and has stayed down, like a fighter throwing a fight, after a payoff. I've read Keynesians like Paul Krugman say that the level of stimulus was actually not enough by Keynesian standards (and too much went to tax cuts), but certainly the US economy with its level of stimulus did much better than most of the states that more thoroughly rejected Keynesianism and instead chose austerity in the midst of a recession, like the UK...see various graphs at http://graphsagainstausterity.tumblr.com/ (click on any graph to see the original article it came from) Increased government employment doesn't seem to generate tax revenue very well. Except government employment hasn't increased under Obama, it's actually been steadily decreasing during his presidency (apart from a brief spike when the decennial census was taken and they needed a lot of temporary census workers), due mostly to the Republicans in
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
Drug money flows through our banking systems, stock markets. The fruit of many decades of Prohibition - and the black money does get laundered --- becoming as you put it grey money. The drug criminal syndicates and government agencies that have covert understandings and dealings with them by now form a parallel world. Your point about Turkey applies to our situation as well because drug crimes are a useful way of eliminating troublesome opponents. Scenario: radical troublemaker. gets pulled over and the police, who then discover a bag of cocaine hidden in their trunk. They go down for a drug conviction - who (but a very few) will believe otherwise. It is a very useful tool for tyranny and corrupt forces on many levels besides generating immense profits for the syndicates. Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:41 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Hi Chris, I can't agree more. If we look at the history of prohibition, it is always either a political tools, or unfair economy, or a way for bandits to steal money. In Turkey, where almost all man were smoking tobacco, a sultan decided (some centuries ago) to make it illegal for beheading its main opponents. Easy! And the problem today, is not the black money, but the grey money. We can't indeed no more separate healthy money from the money based on lies. We are all hostage of those prohibitionist bandits. Bruno On 08 Nov 2013, at 03:57, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 2:32 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 07 Nov 2013, at 03:32, Chris de Morsella wrote: The problem of any system ever devised is that eventually it will become corrupted - through one path or another corruption will become endemic and increasingly it will parasitize the system until eventually the empty husk of the hollowed out society collapses as all the illusions and Ponzi schemes become marked to market and no one is buying into it any longer. Systems are human creations and suffer from all the pitfalls and blindness characteristic of our species. A system organized around a Party or a Church will end up creating the same social structure of a corrupt class of successful crime families becoming entrenched at the vertices. OK. But it is always due to factual precise fact, some of them encapsulating the departure from honesty, like the closure of Plato academy in theology (and this explains a lot of our human problems today), or the prohibition in modern times, which violate the US constitution, and announces all the other violation. Sure. in the US prohibition probably did more than anything to create the culture of organized crime and to enrich the criminal syndicates to the point that now it is hard to even know how much of our economy is actually controlled by them. Dirty money pollutes markets and distorts them and drives out honest actors. In Roma there is a saying that translated more or less: The first generation are bandits; the second generation are bankers; the third generation are politicians; and by the fourth generation a Pope. Or the Anglo saying Behind every great fortune there is a great crime I think that this is misleading, as it gives the idea that money is a problem. Money is just the best way to distibute work, and enrich everyone, ... when playing with the rules. But then big amount of moeny is an incentive for unscrupulous bandits, and if they rob the society, we are soon or later in a big mess. Then we are living earth gloablization, and the bandits use it to consoldiate their business. A large part of the middle class is hostage of that situation. Money itself is just a medium of exchange; and a marker of wealth perhaps. It is not money itself, but how criminal syndicates end up controlling how it flows and how it is used. I think it is important to look at how even a system dedicated to the principle of wiping out class has invariably spawned various nationalistic red bourgeoisies (the Radish communists - red on the outside white on the inside) Look at the princelings in the PRC; or the weird family dynasty in the PRK. or the Stalinist bourgeoisie of the former USSR. Or conversely how a system purporting to be based on the teachings of Jesus Christ resulted in the sordid history of the Papacy. It does not matter much what the superficial forms of a system are, if the end outcome is invariably the same - that is the society becomes dominated by a small entrenched elite that enjoys disproportionate benefits and is concerned only with its own self-serving interests. The US constitution was well thought, and the founders were aware if how
A clarification: nonphysical mental strings (massless) and physical strings (with mass)
Sorry for so many postings, I'll try to refrain, but this is a critical clarification. Sorry my confusion A clarification: nonphysical mental strings (massless) and physical strings (having actual mass) There are (possibly) physical strings which have mass and strings,as mental entities or monads. They both refer to the same item but that item as referred to in two alternate worlds, one the physical, mass carrying or actual string which refers to a particle with mass and the nonphysical or mental, which is essentially a mental representation or descrption of that sgtring. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 08 Nov 2013, at 17:29, Chris de Morsella wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:35 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 08 Nov 2013, at 03:44, Chris de Morsella wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 4:26 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Not to be sarcastic, but probably yes. Money from bitumin brings money for research into environmental remediation. It also helps liberate people from pouring cash into the OPEC world, which seems to only inflame Muslim passions. Plus the Canadians are world class technologists and will likely invent more efficient engines, and also fund the green technologies that you crave. Theres a reason why poor nations do not do technology well. You have a cornucopian view that we can go on making horrible messes on this planet without worrying about the consequences because somehow it will all get magically remediated yeah like that actually happens in the real world. Remediation is a cost center NOT a profit center; it is done only to the minimum level necessary in order to stay just this side of the law. You are free to say whatever you want of course, but I find it difficult to believe your hypothesis that the very same humans who profit from raping the earth will -- after the fact and after they have lined their pockets with ill-gotten wealth -- will somehow do a 180 degree turn and start behaving in the altruistic noble manner you seem so certain they will. Are you saying that the Arabs would be happier if they had no oil wealth... that all this money has made them hopping mad? I read a paper arguing in that direction, showing that Jordanian have much less tryanny thanks to the absence of oil. That makes sense. It is easier to do that type of business with Tyrant, than with elected people. Sure of course, and the western powers have seen to it that tyrants are kept in place to keep the oil flowing, under regimes they can control... case in point the CIA organized coup against Prime Minister of Iran Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953. However this is a foreign imposition of presidents for life and kleptocracies such as the house of Saud. The phrase I was replying to pouring cash into the OPEC world, which seems to only inflame Muslim passions. seemed to promote various ugly stereotypes that are quite common in the western media regarding the Arab/Muslim world. I was responding to those insinuations, which dip down into a prejudicial stream I personally find rather unpleasant. OK. Thanks for the clarification. Bruno Green technologies are already proving themselves -- without your plucky Canadian tar sand billionaires (some of whom are Texans by the way) deciding to invest their profits in green technology -- as if they would. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Those plucky Canadians -- as you term them -- are criminally destroying vast swaths of Alberta turning it into a poisoned chemical saturated moonscape as well as sucking up vast amounts of water from other potential uses -- including agriculture. Will the bitumen sweated out of that sand be worth the ultimate costs to get it? On Thursday, November 7, 2013 11:24 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 9:50 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:Fur sure, that was the truth. Now we got's shale gas, which seems to pay a lot better, is safer to go after, and is cleaner, carbon-wise. Unless you are buying into technological unemployment (robots, software) then we have to face the fact. BHO's Keynesian way has fallen on its ass and has stayed down, like a fighter throwing a fight, after a payoff. I've read Keynesians like Paul Krugman say that the level of stimulus was actually not enough by Keynesian standards (and too much went to tax cuts), but certainly the US economy with its level of stimulus did much better than most of the states that more thoroughly rejected Keynesianism and instead chose austerity in the midst of a recession, like the UK...see various graphs at http://graphsagainstausterity.tumblr.com/ (click on any graph to see the original article it came from) Increased government employment doesn't seem to generate tax revenue very well. Except government employment hasn't increased under Obama, it's actually been steadily decreasing during his presidency (apart from a brief spike when the decennial census was taken and they needed a lot of temporary census workers), due mostly
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/8/2013 12:10 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Ending the era of Prohibition will not mean kids will start smoking pot Hint they already are, and have been for a long time. Ending this dark era of Prohibition will mean that the greatest illicit funding engine ever devised will shut down and the global crime syndicates revenue streams will dry up. And will kids smoke opimum too (it was legal in China at the time of the opimum trade)? I saw a professor of medicine on TV saying that opium is the least damaging recreational drug. What about whiskey (kids already drink too)? Heroin? Cocaine? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/8/2013 2:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I read a paper arguing in that direction, showing that Jordanian have much less tryanny thanks to the absence of oil. That makes sense. It is easier to do that type of business with Tyrant, than with elected people. Sure, in political theory it's known as the oil curse. Any nation that gets most of its wealth by selling its natural resources tends to be corrupted by it. The ruling class makes the deal to sell the resources and they take a big cut for themselves, but they pacify the populace by giving them a stipend from the sales. But then nobody is really employed or develops any industry or skills. Everybody is dependent on the deal which ultimately means the corporations paying for the resource. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
The 10^120 bits for the holographic visible universe is based on the Planck Scale and is the number of Planck Areas on its surface. Penrose estimates that it will maximize at 10^122 in the future. Richard On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 5:45 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Nov 2013, at 06:51, LizR wrote: On 7 November 2013 23:43, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Nov 2013, at 04:40, Richard Ruquist wrote: I have no idea what the information capacity of a MWI multiverse is. 0, in Gods' eye. Surely the information capacity of the multiverse is equivalent to the information needed to specify the laws of physics? It is the information you need to define addition and multiplication. OK, it is a bit more than 0. I would guess the information capacity of all possible multiverses would either be zero or perhaps whatever information is stored in maths (although I guess that could be considered as zero). It has to be a little above zero, as you cannot specify math from no axioms at all. Infinity, from inside, and our partial relative position. Surely the information capacity as seen from our particular position isn't infinite, although it is very large? I've heard the figure 10^120 bits mentioned for the visible universe, which is - I assume - all we currently have even potentially available. But the visible universe is like a dust, compared to the non visible realities ... Also, 10^120 is a very rough estimate, and makes no sense if there are continuous observable. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: [Mind and Brain] A definition of existence (being twofold)
Roger, Yes, but both Cass and I would agree that in these metaphysical matters, Theosophy must have for the time being the final say. As modified by scientific and mathematical enchroachment like comp. In Theosophy mass is a property of Matter. Matter has existence at the Physical level, mainly because it is massive.Force as exhibited by photons, gravitons and gluons are in some sense more mental, along with concepts like mass. Eingenfunctions and comp are likewise mental being merely computational artifacts.. Like mass, strings branes are mental concepts that are useful in predicting the properties and processes of matter, consistent with a 1p perspective, along with Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and the Standard Model. Theosophy for the uninitiated is a Many World theory of the universe. The differing worlds are parallel and overlapping, but all worlds above the Physical level are heirarchical and conceptual. Some of you might be interested to know that in this theory, Consciousness emanates from the Causal level, above the Mental, Astral and Physical levels, but just below the Buddhic level. In Buddhism and Theosophy, it is the root particle at the Causal level, from which consciousness emanates, that gets reincarnated after removal of memories. Just what properties the root retains of your individual self is an open question. Perhaps comp can tell. Richard (;) .. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Cass Silva I've just posted a note which argues that all physical entities or variables such as mass are theoretical and therefor mental. You might disagree. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough - Receiving the following content - From: Cass Silva Receiver: MindBrain Time: 2013-11-07, 18:49:59 Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] A definition of existence (being twofold) Does Gravity have mass? Cass On Wed, 6/11/13, Roger Clough wrote: Subject: [Mind and Brain] A definition of existence (being twofold) To: mindbr...@yahoogroups.com Cc: everything-list , - mindbr...@yahoogroups.com , theoretical_physics_board Received: Wednesday, 6 November, 2013, 1:21 AM Leibniz said that space, being massless, is a nonphysical nonentity. All that physically exists then consists of physical objects with mass-- these together with their nonphysical mental massless representations (as mind or will, consciousness, monads). Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Nov 2013, at 00:51, LizR wrote: I was thinking specifically of Max Tegmark's MUH. He considers minds to be subsystems of the maths - he doesn't say anything about computations existing in arithmetic. So I think he probably hasn't developed that aspect of the theory to the extent that you have, and may not realise the full implications. Have you had any communication with him? It could be interesting to combine your ideas. We have discussed on this list a long time ago. I was astonished that he does not believe in the quantum immortality, Interesting. And he is one who is well known for popularizing the idea of proving MWI by putting a quantum gun to one's head. How did he justify his disbelief in quantum immortality while at the same time believe in MWI? What would he think the experimenter will experience when he gets in the box with Schrodinger's cat? and is not aware of comp (and mathematical logic). There is a big gap between physicists and logicians. The book by Pale Yourgrau on Einstein and Gödel illustrates this very well. The book by Penrose, which I find very courageous, but erroneous on the Gödel/mind/machine relation, has considerably augment that gap. Physicists tends to run away when hearing the word Gödel ... many logicians runs away when they heard the word reality, or even worst physical reality. Bruno On 7 November 2013 12:39, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 22:17, LizR wrote: If the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis is correct, spacetime (and everything else) is an emergent feature of maths, which makes it a secondary feature of a nonphysical, Platonic object, though not mind. And if we are digitalizable machine, then the Mathematical Universe hypothesis is correct for the ontology, and we need only elementary arithmetic, and physics is a secondary feature, but it *is* a mind fetaure, with the mind emerging from the computations (existing by elementary arithmetic). By allowing an observer to be a non-machine *of some kind*, you can need richer mathematical theologies/physics, but that's not entirely clear to me. The mind itself cannot be entirely mathematical. At least, nor from inside, where we are living (now), assuming we are machine. So if we consider both the 3p and the 1p, the mathematical hypothesis is only 99,9998% correct. The tail of the cow can't go through the window! Bruno On 7 November 2013 07:01, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Roger, Perhaps it is because you are just plain wrong. Richard On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.netwrote: *Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind* *I am shocked to find that so far I have not found a scientist anywhere that understandsthat spacetime, being just lawful behavior (laws)is platonic (is mind). Perhaps they consider it to be quantumgravity. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site athttp://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
In an interview Max Tegmark said that he expected to have a truncated form of QI - he'd survive the quantum suicide experiment, but his brain would still deteriorate in any case until he eventually fades out (like when an amoeba croaks were his exact words, iirc) I think he also mentioned that this might segue into being reborn, so a form of reincarnation - but it's a while since I read it. On 9 November 2013 10:16, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Nov 2013, at 00:51, LizR wrote: I was thinking specifically of Max Tegmark's MUH. He considers minds to be subsystems of the maths - he doesn't say anything about computations existing in arithmetic. So I think he probably hasn't developed that aspect of the theory to the extent that you have, and may not realise the full implications. Have you had any communication with him? It could be interesting to combine your ideas. We have discussed on this list a long time ago. I was astonished that he does not believe in the quantum immortality, Interesting. And he is one who is well known for popularizing the idea of proving MWI by putting a quantum gun to one's head. How did he justify his disbelief in quantum immortality while at the same time believe in MWI? What would he think the experimenter will experience when he gets in the box with Schrodinger's cat? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
Liz, That is very interesting. Do you remember anything about this interview (where it was, who was interviewing him, etc.)? Thanks, Jason On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 5:07 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: In an interview Max Tegmark said that he expected to have a truncated form of QI - he'd survive the quantum suicide experiment, but his brain would still deteriorate in any case until he eventually fades out (like when an amoeba croaks were his exact words, iirc) I think he also mentioned that this might segue into being reborn, so a form of reincarnation - but it's a while since I read it. On 9 November 2013 10:16, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Nov 2013, at 00:51, LizR wrote: I was thinking specifically of Max Tegmark's MUH. He considers minds to be subsystems of the maths - he doesn't say anything about computations existing in arithmetic. So I think he probably hasn't developed that aspect of the theory to the extent that you have, and may not realise the full implications. Have you had any communication with him? It could be interesting to combine your ideas. We have discussed on this list a long time ago. I was astonished that he does not believe in the quantum immortality, Interesting. And he is one who is well known for popularizing the idea of proving MWI by putting a quantum gun to one's head. How did he justify his disbelief in quantum immortality while at the same time believe in MWI? What would he think the experimenter will experience when he gets in the box with Schrodinger's cat? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
I think in New Scientist. Perhaps. I'll let you know if I remember or find it. On 9 November 2013 12:22, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Liz, That is very interesting. Do you remember anything about this interview (where it was, who was interviewing him, etc.)? Thanks, Jason On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 5:07 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: In an interview Max Tegmark said that he expected to have a truncated form of QI - he'd survive the quantum suicide experiment, but his brain would still deteriorate in any case until he eventually fades out (like when an amoeba croaks were his exact words, iirc) I think he also mentioned that this might segue into being reborn, so a form of reincarnation - but it's a while since I read it. On 9 November 2013 10:16, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Nov 2013, at 00:51, LizR wrote: I was thinking specifically of Max Tegmark's MUH. He considers minds to be subsystems of the maths - he doesn't say anything about computations existing in arithmetic. So I think he probably hasn't developed that aspect of the theory to the extent that you have, and may not realise the full implications. Have you had any communication with him? It could be interesting to combine your ideas. We have discussed on this list a long time ago. I was astonished that he does not believe in the quantum immortality, Interesting. And he is one who is well known for popularizing the idea of proving MWI by putting a quantum gun to one's head. How did he justify his disbelief in quantum immortality while at the same time believe in MWI? What would he think the experimenter will experience when he gets in the box with Schrodinger's cat? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
Here is something related: http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/generalized-quantum-immortality-61505.html On 9 November 2013 14:13, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I think in New Scientist. Perhaps. I'll let you know if I remember or find it. On 9 November 2013 12:22, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Liz, That is very interesting. Do you remember anything about this interview (where it was, who was interviewing him, etc.)? Thanks, Jason On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 5:07 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: In an interview Max Tegmark said that he expected to have a truncated form of QI - he'd survive the quantum suicide experiment, but his brain would still deteriorate in any case until he eventually fades out (like when an amoeba croaks were his exact words, iirc) I think he also mentioned that this might segue into being reborn, so a form of reincarnation - but it's a while since I read it. On 9 November 2013 10:16, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.bewrote: On 07 Nov 2013, at 00:51, LizR wrote: I was thinking specifically of Max Tegmark's MUH. He considers minds to be subsystems of the maths - he doesn't say anything about computations existing in arithmetic. So I think he probably hasn't developed that aspect of the theory to the extent that you have, and may not realise the full implications. Have you had any communication with him? It could be interesting to combine your ideas. We have discussed on this list a long time ago. I was astonished that he does not believe in the quantum immortality, Interesting. And he is one who is well known for popularizing the idea of proving MWI by putting a quantum gun to one's head. How did he justify his disbelief in quantum immortality while at the same time believe in MWI? What would he think the experimenter will experience when he gets in the box with Schrodinger's cat? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/8/2013 5:48 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: If you hold the Rational Optimist view aka Matt Ridley, people will act altruistic much more, if they get a reward, then in they get jack. A dictatorship of your own preference is suitable for many, but not for most. Plus, think about pure materiality. If a cruel dictator has his goon point a semi-automatic at each of our heads and demands of us to immediately produce an energy source that will power his civilization for the rest of his life, Easy. Set him on fire. :-) Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/8/2013 5:48 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: If you hold the Rational Optimist view aka Matt Ridley, people will act altruistic much more, if they get a reward, then in they get jack. A dictatorship of your own preference is suitable for many, but not for most. Plus, think about pure materiality. If a cruel dictator has his goon point a semi-automatic at each of our heads and demands of us to immediately produce an energy source that will power his civilization for the rest of his life, and unless we can produce this energy source, bang goes the gun. I will shout shale gas or even tar sands. If you shout out sun and wind, bang goes the gun against your skull. Why? Because even after decades of work, even after daily advances, there's no city on earth that is now powered by sun or win, were that it was so. My pointis we cannot legislate reality.I will take the marketplace with all its flaws versus coercive government. Which would you choose? There can be no marketplace without government. Government's define ownership, property rights, contracts - all stuff essential for markets. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 9 November 2013 14:48, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: If you hold the Rational Optimist view aka Matt Ridley, people will act altruistic much more, if they get a reward, then in they get jack. A dictatorship of your own preference is suitable for many, but not for most. Plus, think about pure materiality. If a cruel dictator has his goon point a semi-automatic at each of our heads and demands of us to immediately produce an energy source that will power his civilization for the rest of his life, and unless we can produce this energy source, bang goes the gun. I will shout shale gas or even tar sands. If you shout out sun and wind, bang goes the gun against your skull. Why? Because even after decades of work, even after daily advances, there's no city on earth that is now powered by sun or win, were that it was so. My point is we cannot legislate reality. I will take the marketplace with all its flaws versus coercive government. Which would you choose? Something other than a false dichotomy. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
Perhaps you may not know that opiates were given to infants in the Victorian era to calm them down - and yes it did keep them quiet and happy (until they required another fix of that special syrup. hehe). In Italy (and many other countries) there is no legal prohibition for minors drinking alcohol. and Italian kids begin drinking watered down glasses of wine quite early. What is interesting to me is that extreme alcoholism is more prevalent in societies that try to strangle the consumption of it than it is in say much of continental Europe where the cultures are more lax. Does this mean little children are downing shots of Grappa in Italian bars; of course not the bar keep and clients would laugh them out of the establishment. It seems to me that the societies that manage such things through non official channels of custom and social pressure are doing much better in terms of the vital statistics that are associated with sever alcohol abuse. Sometimes, less is more. Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 10:45 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/8/2013 12:10 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Ending the era of Prohibition will not mean kids will start smoking pot.. Hint they already are, and have been for a long time. Ending this dark era of Prohibition will mean that the greatest illicit funding engine ever devised will shut down and the global crime syndicates revenue streams will dry up. And will kids smoke opimum too (it was legal in China at the time of the opimum trade)? I saw a professor of medicine on TV saying that opium is the least damaging recreational drug. What about whiskey (kids already drink too)? Heroin? Cocaine? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
Exactly - although it is especially true for oil - it also applies to any plantation or resource extraction based society. Often these types of countries are locked into larger mercantile systems, locked into markets and ruled by fifty families per country that feel greater affinity for the ruling classes of the empire (or great power zone of influence) they belong to than with their own fellow countrymen. From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 10:53 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/8/2013 2:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I read a paper arguing in that direction, showing that Jordanian have much less tryanny thanks to the absence of oil. That makes sense. It is easier to do that type of business with Tyrant, than with elected people. Sure, in political theory it's known as the oil curse. Any nation that gets most of its wealth by selling its natural resources tends to be corrupted by it. The ruling class makes the deal to sell the resources and they take a big cut for themselves, but they pacify the populace by giving them a stipend from the sales. But then nobody is really employed or develops any industry or skills. Everybody is dependent on the deal which ultimately means the corporations paying for the resource. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/8/2013 8:00 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Perhaps you may not know that opiates were given to infants in the Victorian era to calm them down -- and yes it did keep them quiet and happy (until they required another fix of that special syrup... hehe). But did they have a right to it? In Italy (and many other countries) there is no legal prohibition for minors drinking alcohol... and Italian kids begin drinking watered down glasses of wine quite early. What is interesting to me is that extreme alcoholism is more prevalent in societies that try to strangle the consumption of it than it is in say much of continental Europe where the cultures are more lax. Does this mean little children are downing shots of Grappa in Italian bars; of course not the bar keep and clients would laugh them out of the establishment. I grew up in Texas and there the law says you can drink if you're with a parent whatever your age. I used to sip my parent's beers when I was five and have watered wine as a nightcap. When I was in college and my mother or father visited we'd go out to a roadhouse and have whiskeys all round. It seems to me that the societies that manage such things through non official channels of custom and social pressure are doing much better in terms of the vital statistics that are associated with sever alcohol abuse. Sometimes, less is more. So why complain about the opium trade. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 9 November 2013 17:12, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: So why complain about the opium trade. As far as I am aware this is still prohibited, which causes the existence of black markets. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 5:49 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World If you hold the Rational Optimist view aka Matt Ridley, people will act altruistic much more, if they get a reward, then in they get jack. A dictatorship of your own preference is suitable for many, but not for most. Plus, think about pure materiality. If a cruel dictator has his goon point a semi-automatic at each of our heads and demands of us to immediately produce an energy source that will power his civilization for the rest of his life, and unless we can produce this energy source, bang goes the gun. I will shout shale gas or even tar sands. If you shout out sun and wind, bang goes the gun against your skull. Why? Because even after decades of work, even after daily advances, there's no city on earth that is now powered by sun or win, were that it was so. My point is we cannot legislate reality. I will take the marketplace with all its flaws versus coercive government. Which would you choose? I do not subscribe to your Manichean world view, in fact I find it ill reflective of the complexity and nuance of reality. You like to see things in a either this or that kind of way, and maybe that works for you, but it doesn't work for me. Are you really that certain you know your energy facts. Global installed solar consumption went from 2.1 TWh in 2001 to 55.7 TWh in 2011; growing by a factor of more than 20X in 10years; this is reflected in the growth in installed capacity, which went from a little over 2GW of installed solar capacity in 2001 to around 20GW of installed capacity in 2011. In fact there is so much solar and wind electric capacity already installed in Germany that on days which are favorable for wind and solar power, the overabundance of supply can drive the wholesale price into sharply negative territory. The market inverts and in order to shed load onto the grid - when supply exceeds demand beyond the capacity of the grid to manage it -- you need to pay the grid operators because the grid cannot accept any more energy without becoming unstable - the grid is a balancing between instantaneous supply and demand (act at the speed of electricity) The cost per kwh of solar PV is following a Moore's Law type progression in falling costs and the dollar per kwh of solar PV are closing in on the cost of coal generated electricity, which has been the least expensive (largely because it can externalize hundreds of billions of dollars per year of costs incurred by mining, and burning coal onto the commons). -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 9:44 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 4:26 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Not to be sarcastic, but probably yes. Money from bitumin brings money for research into environmental remediation. It also helps liberate people from pouring cash into the OPEC world, which seems to only inflame Muslim passions. Plus the Canadians are world class technologists and will likely invent more efficient engines, and also fund the green technologies that you crave. Theres a reason why poor nations do not do technology well. You have a cornucopian view that we can go on making horrible messes on this planet without worrying about the consequences because somehow it will all get magically remediated yeah like that actually happens in the real world. Remediation is a cost center NOT a profit center; it is done only to the minimum level necessary in order to stay just this side of the law. You are free to say whatever you want of course, but I find it difficult to believe your hypothesis that the very same humans who profit from raping the earth will -- after the fact and after they have lined their pockets with ill-gotten wealth -- will somehow do a 180 degree turn and start behaving in the altruistic noble manner you seem so certain they will. Are you saying that the Arabs would be happier if they had no oil wealth... that all this money has made them hopping mad? Green technologies are already proving themselves -- without your plucky Canadian tar sand billionaires (some of whom are Texans by the way) deciding to invest their profits in green technology -- as if they would. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Those plucky Canadians -- as you term them -- are criminally destroying
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:12 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/8/2013 8:00 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Perhaps you may not know that opiates were given to infants in the Victorian era to calm them down - and yes it did keep them quiet and happy (until they required another fix of that special syrup. hehe). But did they have a right to it? It was completely legal. And coke had cocaine in it too. In Italy (and many other countries) there is no legal prohibition for minors drinking alcohol. and Italian kids begin drinking watered down glasses of wine quite early. What is interesting to me is that extreme alcoholism is more prevalent in societies that try to strangle the consumption of it than it is in say much of continental Europe where the cultures are more lax. Does this mean little children are downing shots of Grappa in Italian bars; of course not the bar keep and clients would laugh them out of the establishment. I grew up in Texas and there the law says you can drink if you're with a parent whatever your age. I used to sip my parent's beers when I was five and have watered wine as a nightcap. When I was in college and my mother or father visited we'd go out to a roadhouse and have whiskeys all round. Yeah that sounds like Texas J It seems to me that the societies that manage such things through non official channels of custom and social pressure are doing much better in terms of the vital statistics that are associated with sever alcohol abuse. Sometimes, less is more. So why complain about the opium trade. Because it was forced on the Chinese by force of arms; if that is the trade you are talking about. Opium (and opiates) have their uses and are valuable as pain relievers. So they will and should be traded. If someone wants to waste themselves away in an opiated dream - who am I to say they should be thrown into prison to save themselves from themselves. I think drugs should be taxed to cover the costs society incurs from their abuse. What I am opposed to is the black market in drugs monopolized by the global criminal syndicates and national intelligence agencies (of some countries). Chris Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/8/2013 9:11 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *spudboy...@aol.com *Sent:* Friday, November 08, 2013 5:49 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World If you hold the Rational Optimist view aka Matt Ridley, people will act altruistic much more, if they get a reward, then in they get jack. A dictatorship of your own preference is suitable for many, but not for most. Plus, think about pure materiality. If a cruel dictator has his goon point a semi-automatic at each of our heads and demands of us to immediately produce an energy source that will power his civilization for the rest of his life, and unless we can produce this energy source, bang goes the gun. I will shout shale gas or even tar sands. If you shout out sun and wind, bang goes the gun against your skull. Why? Because even after decades of work, even after daily advances, there's no city on earth that is now powered by sun or win, were that it was so. My point is we cannot legislate reality. I will take the marketplace with all its flaws versus coercive government. Which would you choose? I do not subscribe to your Manichean world view, in fact I find it ill reflective of the complexity and nuance of reality. You like to see things in a either this or that kind of way, and maybe that works for you, but it doesn't work for me. Are you really that certain you know your energy facts. Global installed solar consumption went from 2.1 TWh in 2001 to 55.7 TWh in 2011; growing by a factor of more than 20X in 10years; this is reflected in the growth in installed capacity, which went from a little over 2GW of installed solar capacity in 2001 to around 20GW of installed capacity in 2011. In fact there is so much solar and wind electric capacity already installed in Germany that on days which are favorable for wind and solar power, the overabundance of supply can drive the wholesale price into sharply negative territory. The market inverts and in order to shed load onto the grid -- when supply exceeds demand beyond the capacity of the grid to manage it -- you need to pay the grid operators because the grid cannot accept any more energy without becoming unstable -- the grid is a balancing between instantaneous supply and demand (act at the speed of electricity) The cost per kwh of solar PV is following a Moore's Law type progression in falling costs and the dollar per kwh of solar PV are closing in on the cost of coal generated electricity, which has been the least expensive (largely because it can externalize hundreds of billions of dollars per year of costs incurred by mining, and burning coal onto the commons). Spudboy is just making a specious argument. Of course no city is powered entirely by wind or solar - neither of those is consistent enough to depend on and we haven't developed energy storage technology sufficient to rely on inconsistent power sources. I expect that for the forseeable future we will have to use some other source to supplement wind and solar. But that doesn't mean we have to use fossil fuel. I think we should be developing some of the safer nuclear reactor designs such as liquid salt thorium reactors. They fit into the existing grid structure and even if we install enough wind and solar to power a city we'll still need backup for windless nights. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Playing Pop and Rock Music Boosts Performance of Solar Cells
Playing Pop and Rock Music Boosts Performance of Solar Cells http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131106073901.htm?utm_source=fe edburnerutm_medium=emailutm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fmatter_energy% 2Fsolar_energy+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Matter+%26+Energy+News+--+Solar+Energy%29 Nov. 6, 2013 - Playing pop and rock music improves the performance of solar cells, according to new research from scientists at Queen Mary University of London and Imperial College London. The high frequencies and pitch found in pop and rock music cause vibrations that enhanced energy generation in solar cells containing a cluster of 'nanorods', leading to a 40 per cent increase in efficiency of the solar cells. Hehe.. Couldn't help myself; found the title funny It is actually a real study and the effects are real and kind of impressive. The solar cell type is zinc oxide nano rods - so pretty exotic still. The researchers grew billions of tiny rods (nanorods) made from zinc oxide, then covered them with an active polymer to form a device that converts sunlight into electricity. .Further down the article Scientists had previously shown that applying pressure or strain to zinc oxide materials could result in voltage outputs, known as the piezoelectric effect. However, the effect of these piezoelectric voltages on solar cell efficiency had not received significant attention before. Link: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131106073901.htm?utm_source=fee dburnerutm_medium=emailutm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fmatter_energy%2 Fsolar_energy+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Matter+%26+Energy+News+--+Solar+Energy%29 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 10:03 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/8/2013 9:11 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 5:49 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World If you hold the Rational Optimist view aka Matt Ridley, people will act altruistic much more, if they get a reward, then in they get jack. A dictatorship of your own preference is suitable for many, but not for most. Plus, think about pure materiality. If a cruel dictator has his goon point a semi-automatic at each of our heads and demands of us to immediately produce an energy source that will power his civilization for the rest of his life, and unless we can produce this energy source, bang goes the gun. I will shout shale gas or even tar sands. If you shout out sun and wind, bang goes the gun against your skull. Why? Because even after decades of work, even after daily advances, there's no city on earth that is now powered by sun or win, were that it was so. My point is we cannot legislate reality. I will take the marketplace with all its flaws versus coercive government. Which would you choose? I do not subscribe to your Manichean world view, in fact I find it ill reflective of the complexity and nuance of reality. You like to see things in a either this or that kind of way, and maybe that works for you, but it doesn't work for me. Are you really that certain you know your energy facts. Global installed solar consumption went from 2.1 TWh in 2001 to 55.7 TWh in 2011; growing by a factor of more than 20X in 10years; this is reflected in the growth in installed capacity, which went from a little over 2GW of installed solar capacity in 2001 to around 20GW of installed capacity in 2011. In fact there is so much solar and wind electric capacity already installed in Germany that on days which are favorable for wind and solar power, the overabundance of supply can drive the wholesale price into sharply negative territory. The market inverts and in order to shed load onto the grid - when supply exceeds demand beyond the capacity of the grid to manage it -- you need to pay the grid operators because the grid cannot accept any more energy without becoming unstable - the grid is a balancing between instantaneous supply and demand (act at the speed of electricity) The cost per kwh of solar PV is following a Moore's Law type progression in falling costs and the dollar per kwh of solar PV are closing in on the cost of coal generated electricity, which has been the least expensive (largely because it can externalize hundreds of billions of dollars per year of costs incurred by mining, and burning coal onto the commons). Spudboy is just making a specious argument. Of course no city is powered entirely by wind or solar - neither of those is consistent enough to depend on and we haven't developed energy storage technology sufficient to rely on inconsistent power sources. In diversity there is stability (usually). Yes solar and wind are intermittent, but this is an overblown problem and has taken on a rhetorical life of its own. Yes intermittency is a problem, but there currently exist may ways of mitigating it. The grid will need to become smarter - and it is becoming smarter ( a lot of IT is going into the grid and the billions of nodes that comprise what is truly the largest machine humankind has ever made). The addition of a parallel information network that reports real time grid conditions at the level of individual transformer's operating parameters for example; or real time measurements of long distance overhead high voltage lines. This will enable almost instantaneous response times; also a key bit of enabling technology that is becoming available are very high speed very high voltage digitally controlled switches that can shunt current from one line to another in milliseconds or less, transforming the grid into more of a true network and the power on it will begin to more resemble the packet architecture of the internet. Edge intelligence. This includes the smart meters teabaggers have been taught to fear, but also smart appliances, which will very soon now begin to roll out. By adding edge intelligence and turning the grid more into a spot market (or perhaps offering this as an option as opposed to a fixed bill) and combining the ability of smart appliances to respond to these external price signals demand will begin to naturally map more closely to supply - and do so in almost real time. Better weather prediction (which is happening in part driven by this very need). This means both better on the longer term scale of weeks and on the scale of up to the minute updated predictions of
