Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On 28 May 2015, at 19:18, John Clark wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: But citing Bruno Marchal as an authority is valid?? If you say one thing and Wolfram says another I'll put my money on Wolfram. Wolfram is not an expert in logic. And as has been demonstrated many times neither is Bruno Marchal. By who? And besides, Wolfram must have hundreds of talented mathematicians on his payroll. You don't think Wolfram personally coded everything in Mathematica and wrote everything in Mathworld do you? A reason more to be skeptical. f you search on the net information to contradict anyone, you will always find it. Sure, but if somebody finds something as respected as Wolfram Mathworld that contradicts something Bruno Marchal says then Marchal is almost certainly wrong; If you reason like that we waste our time. Mathworld claims to be the most extensive mathematics resource on the web and I think that's probably true, especially if you include Wolfram Alpha. There are good thing, but clearly, not when it comes to Church-Turing thesis, which was the point. You don't answer the question I asked you: what do you mean by real-world computable? A computation that can be done in the real world. Couldn't you have figured that out by yourself? A function computable by a physical device? Obviously, unless you know of some other way to make a computation in the real world. I don't. Because you still avoid reading the original definition of Turing and Church. The Church Turing thesis, which is also Emil Post law (in cognitive science) is what makes the notion of computation purely mathematical, and that is the ABC of theoretical computer science. I know only Deutsch to believe in a physical form of Church thesis. At least he admits it is another thesis. But he has confused many people by calling it Church-Turing principle as everyone in the filed know that CT has no relation with physics or any metaphysical real world notion at all. You lie on me, but you lie also on the subject. You suffer from a bad ego problem. may be you should smoke a bit of salvia someday ... Other post: On Thu, May 28, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Church's thesis is not related to physics at all I see. Church's thesis says that any problem in physics can be calculated on a Turing Machine, No. Church's thesis say only that intuitively computable is exhaustively captured by the Lambda Calculus formalism. a device made of matter that obeys the laws of physics; but Church's thesis is not related to physics at all. You did not even read the link provided by Quentin. Nor Deustch, which is the one who proposed a physical version of Church-thesis, which is really a thesis in Quantum Mechanics, not in logic. As I said, Bruno Marchal is not an expert on logic. Ah, it is you, the guy who stop at step 3. Like if that was an argument. I better realize why you did not read the AUDA part, as it needs the basic in logic, about which you clearly know nothing about. But then you made the judgment. I insist for the new bees which might still give you some credit: Church's thesis relates a human epistemic notion: computability, with a mathematical notion, being Turing, or Church, or Post, or Markov, or fortran, or c++, or sigma_1 computable. On the left side: an epistemic notion. On the right side: a mathematical notion (even a purely arithmetical one). The sentence the computer (universal number) u emulates the program P can be translated in term of pure nulmber relations. If people insists a little bit, I can explain this with all details needed. This is quite standard material. I explain all details in Conscience et Mécanisme, but was asked to eliminate this, because it was believed at that time that everyone know this, but since then, well, as we see, that is not the case. I guess Wolfram meant effective for real-world, as I saw that real-world can sometimes means effective. Nothing to do with the physical world, even in Wolfram, which is a bit ambiguous. Bruno John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit
Re: Samiya proved right
On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On Thu, May 28, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: an ameoba may be no less conscious, or more, than a kangaroo rat-all the same. It's possible, if consciousness is something that can be either on or off. It seems that way to me, Interesting. So you have only 2 states of alertness, zero or 100%; thus you must remember the precise instant your alert status changes each night when you fall asleep. I myself don't have that ability. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. Samiya http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes, we have testified. [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, Indeed, we were of this unaware. Or [lest] you say, It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done? And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and perhaps they will return. http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has made for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then in falsehood do they believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And they worship besides Allah that which does not possess for them [the power of] provision from the heavens and the earth at all, and [in fact], they are unable. So do not assert similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows and you do not know. Allah presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and unable to do a thing and he to whom We have provided from Us good provision, so he spends from it secretly and publicly. Can they be equal? Praise to Allah ! But most of them do not know. And Allah presents an example of two men, one of them dumb and unable to do a thing, while he is a burden to his guardian. Wherever he directs him, he brings no good. Is he equal to one who commands justice, while he is on a straight path? And to Allah belongs the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And the command for the Hour is not but as a glance of the eye or even nearer. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. Samiya -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: Samiya proved right
On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stath...@gmail.com'); wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','samiyaill...@gmail.com'); wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. The point is, if there's not enough evidence for a rational, impartial person to believe something, it is morally wrong to punish them for not believing it. For example, if the government passes a law and keeps it secret, allowing only easily dismissed rumours of it to get out, it is morally wrong to then reveal the law and punish people who didn't obey it. Note that this has nothing to do with whether the belief is good or bad - only if it is true. I could say that the Quran is a wonderful document, but unfortunately there is insufficient evidence that it is true; or alternatively, that it is an evil document, but unfortunately the evidence suggests that it is true. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
No compulsion when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a non-religious context. But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and not mine. I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. Now look what you made me do! he says as he tortures you. On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. Samiya http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes, we have testified. [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, Indeed, we were of this unaware. Or [lest] you say, It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done? And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and perhaps they will return. http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has made for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then in falsehood do they believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And they worship besides Allah that which does not possess for them [the power of] provision from the heavens and the earth at all, and [in fact], they are unable. So do not assert similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows and you do not know. Allah presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and unable to do a thing and he to whom We have provided from Us good provision, so he spends from it secretly and publicly. Can they be equal? Praise to Allah ! But most of them do not know. And Allah presents an example of two men, one of them dumb and unable to do a thing, while he is a burden to his guardian. Wherever he directs him, he brings no good. Is he equal to one who commands justice, while
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 10:48:47AM -0400, John Clark wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: It's possible, if consciousness is something that can be either on or off. It seems that way to me, Interesting. So you have only 2 states of alertness, zero or 100%; thus you must remember the precise instant your alert status changes each night when you fall asleep. I myself don't have that ability. Eh? Why does that follow? -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
I've heard of Altered States, but what is this alert status business? (And why do you think I should remember falling asleep, when short term memory doesn't operate during sleep?) On 30 May 2015 at 02:48, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: an ameoba may be no less conscious, or more, than a kangaroo rat-all the same. It's possible, if consciousness is something that can be either on or off. It seems that way to me, Interesting. So you have only 2 states of alertness, zero or 100%; thus you must remember the precise instant your alert status changes each night when you fall asleep. I myself don't have that ability. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes, we have testified. [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, Indeed, we were of this unaware. Or [lest] you say, It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done? And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and perhaps they will return. http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has made for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then in falsehood do they believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And they worship besides Allah that which does not possess for them [the power of] provision from the heavens and the earth at all, and [in fact], they are unable. So do not assert similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows and you do not know. Allah presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and unable to do a thing and he to whom We have provided from Us good provision, so he spends from it secretly and publicly. Can they be equal? Praise to Allah ! But most of them do not know. And Allah presents an example of two men, one of them dumb and unable to do a thing, while he is a burden to his guardian. Wherever he directs him, he brings no good. Is he equal to one who commands justice, while he is on a straight path? And to Allah belongs the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And the command for the Hour is not but as a glance of the eye or even nearer. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. Samiya -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Reconciling Random Neuron Firings and Fading Qualia
On 28 May 2015, at 20:12, Terren Suydam wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 May 2015, at 05:16, Terren Suydam wrote: Language starts to get in the way here, but what you're suggesting is akin to someone who is blind-drunk - they will have no memory of their experience, but I think most would say a blind-drunk is conscious. But I think the driving scenario is different in that my conscious attention is elsewhere... there's competition for the resource of attention. I don't really think I'm conscious of the feeling of the floor pressing my feet until I pay attention to it. My thinking on this is that human consciousness involves a unified/ global dynamic, and the unifying thread is the self-model or ego. This allows for top-down control of attention. When parts of the sensorium (and other aspects of the mind) are not involved or included in this global dynamic, there is a significant sense in which it does not participate in that human consciousness. This is not to say that there is no other consciousness - just that it is perhaps of a lower form in a hierarchy of consciousness. I would highlight that human consciousness is somewhat unique in that the ego - a cultural innovation dependent on the development of language - is not present in animals. Without that unifying thread of ego, I suggest that animal consciousness is not unlike our dream consciousness, which is an arena of awareness when the thread of our ego dissolves. A visual I have is that in the waking state, the ego is a bag that encapsulates all the parts that make up our psyche. In dreamtime, the drawstring on the bag loosens and the parts float out, and get activated according to whatever seemingly random processes that constitute dreams. In lucid dreams, the ego is restored (i.e. we say to ourselves, I am dreaming) - and we regain consciousness. We regain the ego (perhaps the ego illusion), but as you say yourself above, we are conscious in the non-lucid dream too. Lucidity might be a relative notion, as we can never be sure to be awaken. The false-awakening, very frequent for people trained in lucid dreaming, illustrate somehow this phenomena. Right. My point is not that we aren't conscious in non-lucid dream states, but that there is a qualitative difference in consciousness between those two states, and that lucid-dream consciousness is much closer to waking consciousness than to dream consciousness, almost by definition. It's this fact I'm trying to explain by proposing the role of the ego in human consciousness. OK. usually I make that difference between simple universality (conscious, but not necessarily self-conscious), and Löbianity (self- conscious). It is the difference between Robinson Arithmetic and Peano Arithmetic (= RA + the induction axioms). It is an open problem for me if RA is more or less conscious than PA. PA has much stronger cognitive abilities, but this can filter more consciousness and leads to more delusion, notably that ego. I don't insist too much on this, as I am not yet quite sure. It leads to the idea that brains filter consciousness, by hallucinating the person. I make this remark because most of the time I use consciousness in its rough general sense, in which animals, dreamers, ... are conscious. Of course... my points are about what kinds of aspects of being human might privilege our consciousness, in an attempt to understand consciousness better. OK. I understand. Then, I am not sure higher mammals have not yet already some ego, and self-consciousness, well before language. Language just put the ego in evidence, and that allows further reflexive loops, which can lead to further illusions and soul falling situation. Right, one could argue that even insects have some kind of self- model. There is no doubt a spectrum of sophistication of self- models, but I would distinguish all of them from the human ego. I guess I was too quick before when I equated the two. The key distinction between a self-model and an ego is the ability to refer to oneself as an object - this, and the ability to identify with that object, reifies the self model in a way that appears to me to be crucial to human consciousness. I don't think this is really possible without language. Probably. But that identification is already a sort of illusion. It is very useful in practice, to survive, when being alive. But the truth, including possible afterlives is more complex. Nor am I sure that our ego dissolves in non-lucid dream, although it seems to disappear in the non-REM dreams, and other sleep states. For me, the key insight I had in trying to describe the difference between lucid and non-lucid dreams is the ability to say I am dreaming, which is an ego statement. What other explanations could account for the difference
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On Fri, May 29, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Wolfram is not an expert in logic. And as has been demonstrated many times neither is Bruno Marchal. By who? As demonstrated by Bruno Marchal of course. A function computable by a physical device? Obviously, unless you know of some other way to make a computation in the real world. I don't. Because you still avoid reading the original definition of Turing and Church. You can't make a computation with a definition! But if you know how to make a computation without a physical device then do so; and I look forward to reading about you in the Wall Street Journal about how you became the world's first trillionaire by starting a computer hardware business with zero production costs. Church's thesis is not related to physics at all I see. Church's thesis says that any problem in physics can be calculated on a Turing Machine, No. Church's thesis say only that intuitively computable is exhaustively captured by the Lambda Calculus formalism. Wrong yet again. From Wolfram Mathworld, the makers of Mathematica: The Church-Turing thesis (formerly commonly known simply as Church's thesis) says that any real-world computation can be translated into an equivalent computation involving a Turing machine. In Church's original formulation (Church 1935, 1936), the thesis says that real-world calculation can be done using the lambda calculus, which is equivalent to using general recursive functions. As I said, Bruno Marchal is not an expert on logic. Ah, it is you, the guy who stop at step 3. Like if that was an argument. I lost interest at step 3 because step 3 was S-T-U-P-I-D. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 30 May 2015 at 07:01, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! It isn't an analogy, it's a fact of human psychology. Clearly people have projected their own nature onto a supposed supreme being, making the supreme being out to be some sort of emotionally crippled sadist. I refuse to give credence to a God that intends to torture anyone who doesn't believe in it for eternity, and I suggest you consider that with an open mind yourself. Clearly *people* wrote those particular lines from your allegedly divine text in order to control other people, and the same is true of the Bible and any other holy writ that uses crude threats to force other people to obey an elite group (such as priests). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lizj...@gmail.com'); wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','samiyaill...@gmail.com'); wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes, we have testified. [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, Indeed, we were of this unaware. Or [lest] you say, It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done? And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and perhaps they will return. http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has made for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then in falsehood do they believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And they worship besides Allah that which does not possess for them [the power of] provision from the heavens and the earth at all, and [in fact], they are unable. So do not assert similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows and you do not know. Allah presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and unable to do a thing and he to whom We have provided from Us good provision, so he spends from it secretly and publicly. Can they be equal? Praise to Allah ! But most of them do not know. And Allah presents an example of two men, one of them dumb and unable to do a thing, while he is a burden to his guardian. Wherever he directs him, he brings no good. Is he equal to one who commands justice, while he is on a straight path? And to Allah belongs the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And the command for the Hour is not but as a glance of the eye or even nearer. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. Samiya -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com'); . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','everything-list@googlegroups.com');. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com'); . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','everything-list@googlegroups.com');. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
