Re: Samiya proved right
Well, it sort of sabotaged technological progress for what was then excellent, progress. It's a reasonable thing to say, the we need God and He doesn't need us. However, just by the way the world works, the lack of cause and effect in personal lives, disease, earthquakes, etc. I make no claims about God. It might be a better neutral way to describe God as a Mind, and worry about how we think about it later. This is probably trivial and shallow, but I try to look at things from the purely human point of view-however miserable and flawed humans are. Moreover, I see the universe as increasingly looking like a great program, or a simulation. Thus, the actually cosmology of the astronomers becomes a secondary thing, because no matter what it's shape or age, it all functions like a computation. -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 1:05 pm Subject: Re: Samiya proved right On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged individually. God doesn't need us, we need God. Samiya -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am Subject: Re: Samiya proved right God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: No compulsion when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a non-religious context. But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and not mine. I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. Now look what you made me do! he says as he tortures you. On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:
Re: Samiya proved right
On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged individually. God doesn't need us, we need God. Samiya -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am Subject: Re: Samiya proved right God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: No compulsion when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a non-religious context. But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and not mine. I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. Now look what you made me do! he says as he tortures you. On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. Samiya http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes, we have testified. [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, Indeed, we were of this unaware. Or
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
John, See my preceding posts. I have already commented this. You get circular. Bruno On 29 May 2015, at 16:37, John Clark wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Wolfram is not an expert in logic. And as has been demonstrated many times neither is Bruno Marchal. By who? As demonstrated by Bruno Marchal of course. A function computable by a physical device? Obviously, unless you know of some other way to make a computation in the real world. I don't. Because you still avoid reading the original definition of Turing and Church. You can't make a computation with a definition! But if you know how to make a computation without a physical device then do so; and I look forward to reading about you in the Wall Street Journal about how you became the world's first trillionaire by starting a computer hardware business with zero production costs. Church's thesis is not related to physics at all I see. Church's thesis says that any problem in physics can be calculated on a Turing Machine, No. Church's thesis say only that intuitively computable is exhaustively captured by the Lambda Calculus formalism. Wrong yet again. From Wolfram Mathworld, the makers of Mathematica: The Church-Turing thesis (formerly commonly known simply as Church's thesis) says that any real-world computation can be translated into an equivalent computation involving a Turing machine. In Church's original formulation (Church 1935, 1936), the thesis says that real-world calculation can be done using the lambda calculus, which is equivalent to using general recursive functions. As I said, Bruno Marchal is not an expert on logic. Ah, it is you, the guy who stop at step 3. Like if that was an argument. I lost interest at step 3 because step 3 was S-T-U-P-I-D. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
That is the analogy I also used to understand and explain with some years ago. It helps to make sense of it. However, the Quran states that it has been created in Truth / Reality, hence I hesitate to use that analogy. Samiya On 31-May-2015, at 1:13 am, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Well, it sort of sabotaged technological progress for what was then excellent, progress. It's a reasonable thing to say, the we need God and He doesn't need us. However, just by the way the world works, the lack of cause and effect in personal lives, disease, earthquakes, etc. I make no claims about God. It might be a better neutral way to describe God as a Mind, and worry about how we think about it later. This is probably trivial and shallow, but I try to look at things from the purely human point of view-however miserable and flawed humans are. Moreover, I see the universe as increasingly looking like a great program, or a simulation. Thus, the actually cosmology of the astronomers becomes a secondary thing, because no matter what it's shape or age, it all functions like a computation. -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 1:05 pm Subject: Re: Samiya proved right On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged individually. God doesn't need us, we need God. Samiya -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am Subject: Re: Samiya proved right God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: No compulsion when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a non-religious context. But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and not mine. I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. Now look what you made me do! he says as he tortures you. On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On 31 May 2015 at 03:54, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 , LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I've heard of Altered States, but what is this alert status business? That business is just another way of saying consciousness. (And why do you think I should remember falling asleep, when short term memory doesn't operate during sleep?) But short term memory does operate when you're NOT sleeping, and if there are only 2 conscious states, on and off, so you should be able to remember the last instant that conscious switch was in the on position. Can you? I can't. Actually, my apologies, I got that the wrong way around before. What I should have said is that your short term memory is the only type of memory that DOES operate while you're asleep. What *doesn't* happen during sleep is transferring the contents of short term memory into medium term memory. But I still don't see how you expect to remember the last instant you were conscious. Since your short-to-medium term memory transfer doesn't operate when you're asleep, you would expect to NOT remember the 5 minutes (approx) before you fall asleep, and to remember the last 5 minutes of your dreams. Which is my experience. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 31 May 2015 at 03:32, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Twas brillig as slithey toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe all mimsy were the borogroves as the ramprats outgrabe I'm not sure why you (mis)quoted this, but from memory the correct version is more like this: Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimbal in the wabe All mimsey were the borogroves And the mome raths outgrabe The rest I'm less certain about. (Something about Beware the Bandersnatch my son - the claws that catch, the jaws that bite...) But anyway, I'd like to enter it into my scientific meaning found in sacred texts experiment. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On Sat, May 30, 2015M, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: See my preceding posts. I have already commented this. OK, lets think about your previous posts, like the one where you said Church's thesis is not related to physics at all or the one where you said Church's thesis say only that intuitively computable is exhaustively captured by the Lambda Calculus formalism Other than randomness nobody has ever seen anything in the physical world that was not computable. And Lambda Calculus (in its most powerful form) is equivalent to a Turing Machine. And you can actually build a Turing Machine in the real world because it is made of matter. Not related to physics my ass! John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
PS That set off volcanoes from a distance as a weapon idea was used in a Dr Who story in the 1960s. (Not sure if any of Bond's enemies ever got around to that one...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 31 May 2015 at 15:47, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Anyway, look - screw all this tedious God stuff already. Meanwhile back on topic about The Trump of Doom: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/weather-wars.html Wow. Mind you, I suspect that America has been manipulating the climate for decades (as has everyone else). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 31 May 2015 at 11:14, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures someone for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine. If a human demands worship and claims to love everyone while punishing them for going against his laws, we call him a narcissistic psychopath. But when God does it, that's fine. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 31 May 2015 at 03:42, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Which is why I suggest that those who understand science should evaluate the Quranic statements about nature to examine if the author knows what he is talking about. Obviously for this to be a meaningful exercise it should be a double-blind test in which various sacred texts which give similar statements that could be seen as scientific are compared. One would need Biblical scholars, experts in the Norse Eddas, Buddhists and so on to take what they consider meaningful statements, suitably agnostic scholars to translate them if necessary, historians to give suitable interpretations to place them into context, and then a group of people with scientific knowledge, and no knowledge of their origin, to assign a score for how well them measure up. Plus some made up / contemporary statements should be thrown in for comparison. Taking the word of people who already believe a particular result that the statements from their preferred sacred texts have been correctly translated, interpreted and historically contextualised will not produce any meaningful data. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 31 May 2015 at 03:24, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures someone for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
Anyway, look - screw all this tedious God stuff already. Meanwhile back on topic about The Trump of Doom: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/weather-wars.html http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/weather-wars.html Kim On 31 May 2015, at 11:56 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 May 2015 at 11:14, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com mailto:stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com mailto:samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures someone for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine. If a human demands worship and claims to love everyone while punishing them for going against his laws, we call him a narcissistic psychopath. But when God does it, that's fine. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile:0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web:http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com “I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of dangerous people out there. I am saying a lot of them are in government - Russell Brand -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: No compulsion when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a non-religious context. But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and not mine. I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. Now look what you made me do! he says as he tortures you. On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. Samiya http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes, we have testified. [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, Indeed, we were of this unaware. Or [lest] you say, It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done? And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and perhaps they will return. http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has made for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then in falsehood do they believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And they worship besides Allah that which does not possess for them [the power of] provision from the heavens
Re: Samiya proved right
Twas brillig as slithey toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe all mimsy were the borogroves as the ramprats outgrabe -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, May 29, 2015 9:42 pm Subject: Re: Samiya proved right No compulsion when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a non-religious context. But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and not mine. I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. Now look what you made me do! he says as he tortures you. On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illiassamiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannoustath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. Samiya http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes, we have testified. [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, Indeed, we were of this unaware. Or [lest] you say, It was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done? And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and
Re: Samiya proved right
Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am Subject: Re: Samiya proved right God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: No compulsion when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a non-religious context. But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and not mine. I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. Now look what you made me do! he says as he tortures you. On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion,
Re: Samiya proved right
On 30-May-2015, at 5:41 am, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to our own negligence. That is known as victim blaming. It's the psychology of a sadist - the same as the rapist's she was asking for it. That's a horrible analogy! Consider the following verses: http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'. If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. The point is, if there's not enough evidence for a rational, impartial person to believe something, it is morally wrong to punish them for not believing it. For example, if the government passes a law and keeps it secret, allowing only easily dismissed rumours of it to get out, it is morally wrong to then reveal the law and punish people who didn't obey it. Note that this has nothing to do with whether the belief is good or bad - only if it is true. I could say that the Quran is a wonderful document, but unfortunately there is insufficient evidence that it is true; or alternatively, that it is an evil document, but unfortunately the evidence suggests that it is true. Which is why I suggest that those who understand science should evaluate the Quranic statements about nature to examine if the author knows what he is talking about. As per my understanding, nobody is being asked for irrational belief. There is enough evidence in nature for any keen mind to know that their must be a creator behind all this, enough evidence from history to know that there cannot be more than one master-king, otherwise everything would be in chaos, and multiple messengers, prophets and scriptures have been sent for guidance. Irrespective of the behaviour and actions of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, people of any faith or the lack of it, we must remember that each one of us will be judged individually and rewarded according to our beliefs and actions, taking into account all our limitations and all our efforts. There will be no injustice! Samiya -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On Fri, May 29, 2015 , LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I've heard of Altered States, but what is this alert status business? That business is just another way of saying consciousness. (And why do you think I should remember falling asleep, when short term memory doesn't operate during sleep?) But short term memory does operate when you're NOT sleeping, and if there are only 2 conscious states, on and off, so you should be able to remember the last instant that conscious switch was in the on position. Can you? I can't. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
