Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 22 Apr 2014, at 02:39, Pierz wrote: I agree with you, up to the point when you start advocating (on the other thread?) the notion that drink driving should be legal. Well, I agree that we have to wait the politics invests a bit more in education. The key point relates to harm caused. OK. I would say that the key point is harm reduction. If you choose to smoke tobacco and thereby ruin your lungs and put yourself at risk of lung cancer, it's your body, your choice. OK. You do have the right to cross the ocean with a sieve. Your friend have the right to inform you that it is risky, but they have not the right to impeach you to do what you have decided to do (unless medical evidence that you lost your mind, if that is possible). But I support the right of others around you not to have to passively inhale your drug and thereby suffer harm for your choices. Same goes for drink driving. It'd be fine if others weren't affected, but they are, and the fact is that many people lack responsibility, so to try to make them be responsible for themselves is as pointless as trying to make a three year old be responsible for him or herself. I am not sure. you are betting that people are stupid and irresponsible. but most are not. If you have some right, you learn the responsibility. If the society protects you too much it makes you irresponsible. I would not vote for the right to drive with alcohol in one day. This would be a ten years program, and experiment in some willing state before perhaps, and may be only to people above 25 years, to begin with. My bet, is that in the long run, this would cure the real cause of the accident, which is the irresponsible driving, and the driving codes which encourage the responsibility. I bet this would save lives, and diminish the harm. You know, some automated part of the automated pilot in plane, have lead to similar problems, and now pilot have to learn technic to stay vigilant about that. Some circuits have been eliminated, I heard, to be sure that the pilot reminds that he is the pilot, not the plane (yet). When I worked as a counsellor with offenders, we used to run a program called consequential thinking in which we tried to drum into the minds of prisoners the simple notion that actions have consequences that they might like to think about before doing something. Wasted breath, much of the time. On a special audience, though. The main point of the law is to prevent and/or minimize the harm we cause night cause others through our ignorance, unregulated emotion, selfishness etc. It should not be paternalistically concerned with the harm we cause ourselves, because then we get into the realm of all kinds of problematic judgements (like 'sinful' sexual practices) - we can't trust society to know what's best for us. OK. Wearing a bike helmet or seatbelt is a grey area because arguably the costs to society/the health system etc of our sustaining a serious traffic injury are a significant 'harm' to others, and so in any society in which everyone pays to provide services for all, we must weight up questions of personal liberty against the responsibility to limit the extent to which we prevail upon the support of the health system due to bad choices. OK. This of course also could be argument for banning smoking, but that's where the heavy taxation of tobacco comes in - you pay a disproportionate tax in order to support the health system that you're more likely to need. On another subject, we know that swiy likes salvia. I wonder if he has tried DMT? Swim has, and he tells me it was pretty terrifying, whereas he enjoys salvia. With salvia he almost feels a sense of homecoming, Swim can relate. a relief to be reunited with something transcendent, OK. whereas with DMT it's like being shot down the barrel of a cannon into some bizarre cartoon-world ruled by a maniacal god hell bent on busting his sanity. Or maybe he's just not hitting the salvia hard enough... ;) Swim never smoked DMT, but made an oral experience, which was a bit like you describe, although rather mild, but with strong reaction from liver/stomach. From the reports it seems DMT is like the magical garden or carnival part of the salvia experience, where you are given somehow the choice to go through or not. I have few report of dissociation with high doses (less than with LSD). Now, like PGC said, different dosage = possible different experience. With salvia it seems that there is that clear threshold, but even that is debatable, and by salvia inverse tolerance, breaking through can be done with smaller and smaller amount of salvinorin. Salvia has many effects and each such effects is present or not in different people, or even for the same people in different sets and setting. Swim is baffled by salvia. I try to understand this
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
I agree with you, up to the point when you start advocating (on the other thread?) the notion that drink driving should be legal. The key point relates to harm caused. If you choose to smoke tobacco and thereby ruin your lungs and put yourself at risk of lung cancer, it's your body, your choice. But I support the right of others around you not to have to passively inhale your drug and thereby suffer harm for *your* choices. Same goes for drink driving. It'd be fine if others weren't affected, but they are, and the fact is that many people lack responsibility, so to try to make them be responsible for themselves is as pointless as trying to make a three year old be responsible for him or herself. When I worked as a counsellor with offenders, we used to run a program called consequential thinking in which we tried to drum into the minds of prisoners the simple notion that actions have consequences that they might like to think about before doing something. Wasted breath, much of the time. The main point of the law is to prevent and/or minimize the harm we cause night cause others through our ignorance, unregulated emotion, selfishness etc. It should not be paternalistically concerned with the harm we cause ourselves, because then we get into the realm of all kinds of problematic judgements (like 'sinful' sexual practices) - we can't trust society to know what's best for us. Wearing a bike helmet or seatbelt is a grey area because arguably the costs to society/the health system etc of our sustaining a serious traffic injury are a significant 'harm' to others, and so in any society in which everyone pays to provide services for all, we must weight up questions of personal liberty against the responsibility to limit the extent to which we prevail upon the support of the health system due to bad choices. This of course also could be argument for banning smoking, but that's where the heavy taxation of tobacco comes in - you pay a disproportionate tax in order to support the health system that you're more likely to need. On another subject, we know that swiy likes salvia. I wonder if he has tried DMT? Swim has, and he tells me it was pretty terrifying, whereas he enjoys salvia. With salvia he almost feels a sense of homecoming, a relief to be reunited with something transcendent, whereas with DMT it's like being shot down the barrel of a cannon into some bizarre cartoon-world ruled by a maniacal god hell bent on busting his sanity. Or maybe he's just not hitting the salvia hard enough... ;) On Saturday, April 19, 2014 1:34:23 AM UTC+10, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Apr 2014, at 04:40, Kim Jones wrote: PGC - you have spoken some great wisdom in this post. Personally I can see the time quickly arriving when it will become the self evident responsibility of education to provide young people with the knowledge to recreate with drugs responsibly. If anybody thinks that drugs in society are going to go away, they need to complete their education by a crash course run by the plant teachers themselves. The single most pressing issue involves the skill of self-moderation, something that humans don't seem to learn easily. This is why Hancock in that TED talk is right on the money when he says that psychedelics should not be used recreationally. To do so trivialises their use and degrades them to the level of a cheap binge on alcohol that most BORING of drugs. Use of the plant teachers needs to be ritualised. You need to know why you are taking them, for what purpose, and what you are trying to achieve. Then you need to bring the treasures thereby attained back into the baseline state of consciousness and assess their value. There are no drugs, only medication. Then some treatment can be daily and repetitive, with varying degree depending of the illness or the stress to survive the struggling of life. The illness can be existential, spiritual, mental, or physical. I asked my friend Swim why do you do drug? Here is what he answered to me: I do coffee, in the early morning, to accelerate the awakening, I do tobacco, at work, to enhance concentration and alertness, I do alcohol, at noon, to digest more easily the cheese, I do cannabis in the evening, to relax and sleep well, I do salvia divinorum, the week-end, to discuss metaphysics with the Virgin Mary. I pay my taxes. I don't aggress people, nor even me (I stop inhaling the tobacco, there are many form of consumption), so who are you to judge my medication? And who are you who seem to accept that some other can think better than you for how you feel? Drugs don't exist. There are only medication made illegal by gangsters to develop an underground market. Once illegal, the gangsters and their criminalized victims can sell them at every corner of every streets, and indeed, all the study shows that illegality is the main contributing factors in the consumption augmentation
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 18 Apr 2014, at 04:40, Kim Jones wrote: PGC - you have spoken some great wisdom in this post. Personally I can see the time quickly arriving when it will become the self evident responsibility of education to provide young people with the knowledge to recreate with drugs responsibly. If anybody thinks that drugs in society are going to go away, they need to complete their education by a crash course run by the plant teachers themselves. The single most pressing issue involves the skill of self- moderation, something that humans don't seem to learn easily. This is why Hancock in that TED talk is right on the money when he says that psychedelics should not be used recreationally. To do so trivialises their use and degrades them to the level of a cheap binge on alcohol that most BORING of drugs. Use of the plant teachers needs to be ritualised. You need to know why you are taking them, for what purpose, and what you are trying to achieve. Then you need to bring the treasures thereby attained back into the baseline state of consciousness and assess their value. There are no drugs, only medication. Then some treatment can be daily and repetitive, with varying degree depending of the illness or the stress to survive the struggling of life. The illness can be existential, spiritual, mental, or physical. I asked my friend Swim why do you do drug? Here is what he answered to me: I do coffee, in the early morning, to accelerate the awakening, I do tobacco, at work, to enhance concentration and alertness, I do alcohol, at noon, to digest more easily the cheese, I do cannabis in the evening, to relax and sleep well, I do salvia divinorum, the week-end, to discuss metaphysics with the Virgin Mary. I pay my taxes. I don't aggress people, nor even me (I stop inhaling the tobacco, there are many form of consumption), so who are you to judge my medication? And who are you who seem to accept that some other can think better than you for how you feel? Drugs don't exist. There are only medication made illegal by gangsters to develop an underground market. Once illegal, the gangsters and their criminalized victims can sell them at every corner of every streets, and indeed, all the study shows that illegality is the main contributing factors in the consumption augmentation and spreading of drugs. Legalize all drugs, and tax them perhaps proportionally to the real problems they generate: you will see alcohol and smoked-tobacco price grow, and you will see the life insurance company encouraging you to medicate yourself with cannabinoids and salvinorin, efficacious and cheap. The drugs you take concerns only you, and your possible relation with your shaman, doctor, priest, whatever. It does not concern at all the government. *You* are the one who has the right to say no to the doctor, not the government. Bruno Kim On 18 Apr 2014, at 11:02 am, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 6:38 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: If you say psychedelics are trivial, did nothing for research in medicine, resulted in nothing, check maps.org or for concrete articles: But the question was whether the produced useful ideas in those who took them - not in whether they were useful for studying brains function, which seems to be what all these papers are about. Depends of course on what you consider useful. I'll give the effects question another personal shot for those interested, so if you're not its ot: One thing that the NYT article picked up concerning effect: increased capacity to relate, which translates into the I feel more, but I am more vulnerable. But I'd rather feel than merely function, of the quoted research subject. Trivially, the increased capacity to relate, given correct dosage, administration, settings etc, is brought about by some perturbation of brain chemistry. Comp as some loose, not sanctioned by Bruno's high standards, metaphor offers a good dinner cocktail explanation: Let the first person experience be some stream of input and output values on an unspecified number of channels. These days I like a huge virtual sound mixing board as an image: you get input all manner of external signals or programs, which can be output, limited, compressed, blended into buses, routed internally, convoluted, processed, and effected in various ways. Master output is then subject's first person experience. The mechanisms of psychedelics on brain chemistry level differ in function of subject and the molecule, its receptor sites, dopamine regulation, inhibition + stimulation of different receptor pathways and so on. What distinguishes them from other consciousness altering agent, is their particularity: not merely euphoric stimulation of some sort (cocaine or coffee to some
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 Apr 2014, at 15:38, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: There is also the issue of dosage btw. Most psychedelics will not just automatically take the subject to a full blown mystical thing; which is quite mainstream view by now, for what it's worth: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/health/lsd-reconsidered-for-therapy.html?_r=0 Nice. I read similar analysis for the magic mushrooms. Most people I know don't venture into full dose territory, and still speak as if they could infer what's going on there by knowing the lower doses, which is simply false. The dose spectrum is large and I don't think anybody has any idea of what losing control in the full dose sense, of say LSD, really means. Especially that it last for 10/12h. With salvia, there is a notion of threshold. The active dose generates the so-called breakthrough, which is the passage from the magic garden/carnival state to the immaterial state (as called by sagestudent, a student of Daniel Siebert). And there is that often mentioned inverse tolerance: the more often you take salvia, the lower the is the dose needed to breakthrough. Very high dose, in the case of salvia, can lead to an experience that we are totally unable to remember. It is revealing and expected, that anxiety increased for the low dose patients of the study I linked to. At lower dose, what the article does not mention, is tendency towards increased sensory awareness, nasal decongestion, increased sexual appetite etc. The exact opposite of being stoned, which is much more plausible as candidate for conferring some advantage: more sex that is more fun, increased efficacy of hunting etc. And because of psilocybin muchroom's prevalence close to uhmm.. the fecal deposits of certain ungulate animals, it would make more sense to follow the animals that provide substrate for an advantage conferring mushroom, rather than following herds of animals that don't. So our relation with cows and mushrooms as seen in Algerian paleolithic cave paintings if I remember correctly, is not that weird. This is conjecture, of course, but why cows in every culture on earth and not the other, just as nourishing and useful animals? Some mushroom could be part of that answer. Other than decreasing anxiety for terminally ill, there is also good evidence for MDMA as helping with PTSD, Cannabis as useful for pain and apetite stimulation with cancer patients and a variety of other uses. Cannabis cure many cancers, and many other disease (including sciatica!). This is more and more confirmed, but for cancer it is known on mice and rats since 1974. That secret is more hidden than the parallel universe! I did not believe Jack Herer on this, but eventually all facts described in his book have been confirmed many times. The main problem with LSD is the hardness to find it, in good quality. People also seem to forget the relation to dopamine and serotonin systems of the brain, where psychedelic studies have made considerable contribution; even in design of new drugs. Here salvia is unique as having no relation with the serotonin system, nor the dopamine (which is associated with basically all drugs, like alcohol, chocolate, cannabis, LSD, ...). It is classified as disphoric (the contrary of euphoric). That makes it interesting, even for big- pharma. The pharma world, on salvia, seems to try to avoid the cannabis mistake. A nice video on cancer/cannabis, featuring Ronnie Smith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFKo8yz8yjA If you say psychedelics are trivial, did nothing for research in medicine, resulted in nothing, check maps.org or for concrete articles: https://www.erowid.org/references/refs.php?C=Hof Of course, a quite wonderful site. I read hundred of reports on many products, before trying them. Bruno PGC On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:49 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Apr 2014, at 13:49, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. True, but here it's perhaps important to make a distinction between permanent synesthesia and the temporary kind that can be caused by psychedelics. OK. I think we agree that psychotropic substance play some role in the development of life in animal. Then it is even more obvious for civilsation, if you look at the story of wine, (blood's christ!), tobacco, etc. Now I have not studied enough the relation between language and synestesia, and the relation between psychotropic and synesthesia to be able to conclude anything, actually. Ok, we agree on all of this. Bruno I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found, and sometimes with a difference (and sometime with some benefices). The brain do drugs all the time, it is part of our functioning, and indeed animals drugs themselves very often, and plants exploits this to manipulate insects. It looks also that the brain might have some hardcoded solution to support abnormal stress, like in grave illness and near death, and so some drugs can perhaps trigger those dormant programs, and people can get idea of what happens in such stress, or near death. That is consistent with evolution, because your species can benefit from particular abilities to survive in those high stress conditions, and it can help for surviving trauma in aggressive animals (like human), so that it can benefits to some population of genes. Such change of brains in high stress have been evidenced in mammals like mice and rats. Some animal brains secrete endo-tranquilizer when a prey is captured by some predator. Now there are millions of drugs, and they trigger different responses. Benefits and harms necessitate case by case analysis. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
The thing that was conceived was the enterprise that became Apple computer. What was brought into being, possibly with the aid of some substance, was the synergistic union of the existing technologies into a concept that allowed them all to be rolled into one and marketed effectively. You can drone on all you like about the eclectic nature of the operating system and the hardware, but the fact remains that something was brought into being that previously was spread over a variety of devices and platforms. The conception of something is clearly greater than the sum of its parts. Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au kmjco...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain On 17 Apr 2014, at 10:54 am, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 12:58:49PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2014 1:12 AM, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. What exactly was conceived? The mouse - from Xerox park? The OS, a single-user form of Unix? Color; the Amiga already had it? The combined monitor/processor? Brent Yeah - I think we've already dealt with it being the Apple computer being conceived in 1974, not the Mac (which came much later, around '82 or '83 IIRC, as a reaction to the expensive Lisa computer they were then trying to produce). On your other things - the mouse was invented in the '60s - I think at Xerox PARC IIRC. The original MacOS (up to and including MacOS 9) bore no relationship to Unix. Unix came to the Mac with the second coming of Jobs in the late '90s. The first Macs were back and white - the first colour Mac I saw was in 1986. PCs with colour monitors appeared around the same time, and as you mention, the Amiga was around by that time. As for the original Apple computer being conceived whilst Jobs was stoned - any evidence? -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: The thing that was conceived was the enterprise that became Apple computer. What was brought into being, possibly with the aid of some substance, was the synergistic union of the existing technologies into a concept that allowed them all to be rolled into one and marketed effectively. You can drone on all you like about the eclectic nature of the operating system and the hardware, but the fact remains that something was brought into being that previously was spread over a variety of devices and platforms. The conception of something is clearly greater than the sum of its parts. Kim, I agree. There's this for example: http://www.thefix.com/content/steve-jobs-think-different-and-lsd-9143 But equally suggestive, at least to us, is a quote from Steve Jobs to*New York Times* reporter* John Markoff*, who interviewed him for his 2005 book *What the Doormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer.*Speaking about his youthful experiments with psychedelics, Jobs said, **Doing LSD was one of the two or three most important things I have done in my life*. *He was hardly alone among computer scientists in his appreciation of hallucinogenics and their capacity to liberate human thought from the prison of the mind. Jobs even let drophttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/ryan-grim/read-the-never-before-pub_b_227887.html that Microsoft's *Bill Gates* would be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once. Apple's mantra was**Think different*.* Jobs did. And he credited his use of LSD as a major reason for his success. I haven't read the book that is referenced so I cannot confirm the veracity of this claim. Best, Telmo. Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au kmjco...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com *Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain* On 17 Apr 2014, at 10:54 am, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 12:58:49PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2014 1:12 AM, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. What exactly was conceived? The mouse - from Xerox park? The OS, a single-user form of Unix? Color; the Amiga already had it? The combined monitor/processor? Brent Yeah - I think we've already dealt with it being the Apple computer being conceived in 1974, not the Mac (which came much later, around '82 or '83 IIRC, as a reaction to the expensive Lisa computer they were then trying to produce). On your other things - the mouse was invented in the '60s - I think at Xerox PARC IIRC. The original MacOS (up to and including MacOS 9) bore no relationship to Unix. Unix came to the Mac with the second coming of Jobs in the late '90s. The first Macs were back and white - the first colour Mac I saw was in 1986. PCs with colour monitors appeared around the same time, and as you mention, the Amiga was around by that time. As for the original Apple computer being conceived whilst Jobs was stoned - any evidence? -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 6:38 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: If you say psychedelics are trivial, did nothing for research in medicine, resulted in nothing, check maps.org or for concrete articles: But the question was whether the produced useful ideas in those who took them - not in whether they were useful for studying brains function, which seems to be what all these papers are about. Depends of course on what you consider useful. I'll give the effects question another personal shot for those interested, so if you're not its ot: One thing that the NYT article picked up concerning effect: increased capacity to relate, which translates into the I feel more, but I am more vulnerable. But I'd rather feel than merely function, of the quoted research subject. Trivially, the increased capacity to relate, given correct dosage, administration, settings etc, is brought about by some perturbation of brain chemistry. Comp as some loose, not sanctioned by Bruno's high standards, metaphor offers a good dinner cocktail explanation: Let the first person experience be some stream of input and output values on an unspecified number of channels. These days I like a huge virtual sound mixing board as an image: you get input all manner of external signals or programs, which can be output, limited, compressed, blended into buses, routed internally, convoluted, processed, and effected in various ways. Master output is then subject's first person experience. The mechanisms of psychedelics on brain chemistry level differ in function of subject and the molecule, its receptor sites, dopamine regulation, inhibition + stimulation of different receptor pathways and so on. What distinguishes them from other consciousness altering agent, is their particularity: not merely euphoric stimulation of some sort (cocaine or coffee to some degree) or sedation (opiates and sleep medication) or even both at once (tobacco), but all channels of our mixing bord being altered in very particular ways. As if another sound mixing engineer had come in overnight and changed the entire mixing studio of the subject in very particular ways. Albert Hofmann noted about LSD in My Problem Child, that remarkably memory of the extreme alterations of experience stays largely intact, which was counter intuitive to him given the extreme degree of inebriation. And the awareness of the extreme degree, its perturbing horror trip anxiety aspect, is proof that the subject becomes aware of where normal is to them, and how peculiarly strange and relativistic their notion of true normality is. The upside of this perturbing weirdness is the subject learns more about relating to a more complete weirdness of their mixing desk: The overnight engineer might have made some valid points in that say: molecule x at dosage y increases tactile response, sexual appetite, general mood parameters etc. before it starts to impede on motricity, while attention span and focus of things sexual is increased with less daily clutter evaluations, master value of orgasm is 7 out of 10 on these parameters, time dilation favorable etc. That would be horny engineer's settings. What about all other kinds of experiences and engineers? What would be output then? which is the central driver for kids trying something weird, not merely naively but openly and hopefully seeking new experiences, and the central question of scientists like Shulgin, pushing the envelope to develop new psychedelic molecules with this open ended mystical quest. Because the particularity of subject is multiplied by particularities of the molecule in question, one trips for a few minutes to a few days. The connection with creativity is not somehow artificially restricted to art and entertainment, but to the entire faculty of whatever it is that we are; and since most creativity is derived by combining at least two ideas (e.g. horseless + carriage; not that Benz tripped but even Jobs himself made such a statement creativity is just connecting things that nobody thought of connecting/relating) in some original fashion, the prevalence of weird ideas and their combinations is increased when conditions are favorable and this sort of multiplication is applied. If something like a Nobel prize could be conceived without all the political bs, Shulgin would deserve one; not just for his advances in pharmacology of these substances, but because he was a careful composer: developing some molecule from a good pharmacological perspective, deriving structure and properties from known substances and trying to optimize them, had one huge benefit: The man tasted all his own works first. On a daily basis, starting 10 to 1000 times below the active dose of the closest derivative he would increase the dosage level in tiny increments until he hit activity or gave up. Why Nobel prize again, one could ask: his molecular designs are one of the main sources for
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
PGC - you have spoken some great wisdom in this post. Personally I can see the time quickly arriving when it will become the self evident responsibility of education to provide young people with the knowledge to recreate with drugs responsibly. If anybody thinks that drugs in society are going to go away, they need to complete their education by a crash course run by the plant teachers themselves. The single most pressing issue involves the skill of self-moderation, something that humans don't seem to learn easily. This is why Hancock in that TED talk is right on the money when he says that psychedelics should not be used recreationally. To do so trivialises their use and degrades them to the level of a cheap binge on alcohol that most BORING of drugs. Use of the plant teachers needs to be ritualised. You need to know why you are taking them, for what purpose, and what you are trying to achieve. Then you need to bring the treasures thereby attained back into the baseline state of consciousness and assess their value. Kim On 18 Apr 2014, at 11:02 am, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 6:38 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: If you say psychedelics are trivial, did nothing for research in medicine, resulted in nothing, check maps.org or for concrete articles: But the question was whether the produced useful ideas in those who took them - not in whether they were useful for studying brains function, which seems to be what all these papers are about. Depends of course on what you consider useful. I'll give the effects question another personal shot for those interested, so if you're not its ot: One thing that the NYT article picked up concerning effect: increased capacity to relate, which translates into the I feel more, but I am more vulnerable. But I'd rather feel than merely function, of the quoted research subject. Trivially, the increased capacity to relate, given correct dosage, administration, settings etc, is brought about by some perturbation of brain chemistry. Comp as some loose, not sanctioned by Bruno's high standards, metaphor offers a good dinner cocktail explanation: Let the first person experience be some stream of input and output values on an unspecified number of channels. These days I like a huge virtual sound mixing board as an image: you get input all manner of external signals or programs, which can be output, limited, compressed, blended into buses, routed internally, convoluted, processed, and effected in various ways. Master output is then subject's first person experience. The mechanisms of psychedelics on brain chemistry level differ in function of subject and the molecule, its receptor sites, dopamine regulation, inhibition + stimulation of different receptor pathways and so on. What distinguishes them from other consciousness altering agent, is their particularity: not merely euphoric stimulation of some sort (cocaine or coffee to some degree) or sedation (opiates and sleep medication) or even both at once (tobacco), but all channels of our mixing bord being altered in very particular ways. As if another sound mixing engineer had come in overnight and changed the entire mixing studio of the subject in very particular ways. Albert Hofmann noted about LSD in My Problem Child, that remarkably memory of the extreme alterations of experience stays largely intact, which was counter intuitive to him given the extreme degree of inebriation. And the awareness of the extreme degree, its perturbing horror trip anxiety aspect, is proof that the subject becomes aware of where normal is to them, and how peculiarly strange and relativistic their notion of true normality is. The upside of this perturbing weirdness is the subject learns more about relating to a more complete weirdness of their mixing desk: The overnight engineer might have made some valid points in that say: molecule x at dosage y increases tactile response, sexual appetite, general mood parameters etc. before it starts to impede on motricity, while attention span and focus of things sexual is increased with less daily clutter evaluations, master value of orgasm is 7 out of 10 on these parameters, time dilation favorable etc. That would be horny engineer's settings. What about all other kinds of experiences and engineers? What would be output then? which is the central driver for kids trying something weird, not merely naively but openly and hopefully seeking new experiences, and the central question of scientists like Shulgin, pushing the envelope to develop new psychedelic molecules with this open ended mystical quest. Because the particularity of subject is multiplied by particularities of the molecule in question, one trips for a few minutes to a few days. The connection with
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found, and sometimes with a difference (and sometime with some benefices). The brain do drugs all the time, it is part of our functioning, and indeed animals drugs themselves very often, and plants exploits this to manipulate insects. It looks also that the brain might have some hardcoded solution to support abnormal stress, like in grave illness and near death, and so some drugs can perhaps trigger those dormant programs, and people can get idea of what happens in such stress, or near death. That is consistent with evolution, because your species can benefit from particular abilities to survive in those high stress conditions, and it can help for surviving trauma in aggressive animals (like human), so that it can benefits to some population of genes. Such change of brains in high stress have been evidenced in mammals like mice and rats. Some animal brains secrete endo-tranquilizer when a prey is captured by some predator. Now there are millions of drugs, and they trigger different responses. Benefits and harms necessitate case by case analysis. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 12:32 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 3:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... I can see attributing some artistic ideas to the psychedelics, but I think the anti-establishment vibe came from the Viet Nam war and sexual freedom came from the pill. Ideals of equality drove the civil rights movement and its natural extension was to equal rights for women. I don't see any useful insights as having come from psychedelics. Sure, their effect is interesting from a neurophysiological standpoint - but so are brain lesions. Unfortunately we can't analyse this issue scientifically without risk being thrown in a cage for many years. This leads me to conclude that there might be something to be said for the anti-establishment-vibe-inducing properties of psychadelics. :) Especially given that there is no evidence whatsoever of any serious social or health ill-efects associated with the use of such drugs. For what it's worth, Francis Creek, Carl Sagan and Steve Jobs might disagree with you. Telmo. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. kim On 16 Apr 2014, at 8:19 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 April 2014 20:12, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. Named for the Apple Record label? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
Oddly enough the Wikipedia article on the development of Apple Inc doesn't mention drugs, and the idea of the Mac is attributed to Jef Raskin. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 11:42 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 1:41 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I think the analogy is wrong. Brains compute by chemical transmitters. So when we interfere with the chemistry, its analogous to changing program steps in a digital computer - not to messing with the substrate (e.g. silicon). Here I meant the substrate as the von Neumann model -- which is reflected in modern computer languages. In any case, messing with a transistor, a memory bit, the compiler or the source code mostly results in the same kind of critical failures and almost never leads to a different or interesting mode of operation. A brain is a neural network. It can (probably) be simulated by a digital computer; but the simulation will be a low level. At that level LSD would be simulated as changing some connection strengths. It can be argued that a computer program is a function network. It could also be argued that a neural network is also a function network. I would say that these things are incidental, and the big deal is the network topology, and the algorithms that lead to the topology. Artificial neural networks or not, we don't really know how to produce functional networks with the same type of adaptability that we observe in the brain, nor do we really know how to do general-purpose computing outside of the von Neumann model (or maybe lambda calculus, with the old lisp machines). Even changing things a bit, like what happens with modern GPUs, we lose generality. Telmo. Brent Telmo. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 Apr 2014, at 10:12, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. It was the invention of the Apple (the Apple I, and the famous Apple II, much before the Apple became the Macintosh). That changes the world, indeed. I read also that Steve Jobs got the main idea stoned, but that kind of facts are hard to verify., although quite plausible. I saw a video on how many inventions and creations have been done by people admitting smoking cannabis at the invention/ discovery time. It is still hard to be sure they would not invent them without cannabis, but I find plausible it helped them, if only to calm the invention/discovery stress. Bruno kim On 16 Apr 2014, at 8:19 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. True, but here it's perhaps important to make a distinction between permanent synesthesia and the temporary kind that can be caused by psychedelics. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found, and sometimes with a difference (and sometime with some benefices). The brain do drugs all the time, it is part of our functioning, and indeed animals drugs themselves very often, and plants exploits this to manipulate insects. It looks also that the brain might have some hardcoded solution to support abnormal stress, like in grave illness and near death, and so some drugs can perhaps trigger those dormant programs, and people can get idea of what happens in such stress, or near death. That is consistent with evolution, because your species can benefit from particular abilities to survive in those high stress conditions, and it can help for surviving trauma in aggressive animals (like human), so that it can benefits to some population of genes. Such change of brains in high stress have been evidenced in mammals like mice and rats. Some animal brains secrete endo-tranquilizer when a prey is captured by some predator. Now there are millions of drugs, and they trigger different responses. Benefits and harms necessitate case by case analysis. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
There is also the issue of dosage btw. Most psychedelics will not just automatically take the subject to a full blown mystical thing; which is quite mainstream view by now, for what it's worth: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/health/lsd-reconsidered-for-therapy.html?_r=0 Most people I know don't venture into full dose territory, and still speak as if they could infer what's going on there by knowing the lower doses, which is simply false. The dose spectrum is large and I don't think anybody has any idea of what losing control in the full dose sense, of say LSD, really means. It is revealing and expected, that anxiety increased for the low dose patients of the study I linked to. At lower dose, what the article does not mention, is tendency towards increased sensory awareness, nasal decongestion, increased sexual appetite etc. The exact opposite of being stoned, which is much more plausible as candidate for conferring some advantage: more sex that is more fun, increased efficacy of hunting etc. And because of psilocybin muchroom's prevalence close to uhmm.. the fecal deposits of certain ungulate animals, it would make more sense to follow the animals that provide substrate for an advantage conferring mushroom, rather than following herds of animals that don't. So our relation with cows and mushrooms as seen in Algerian paleolithic cave paintings if I remember correctly, is not that weird. This is conjecture, of course, but why cows in every culture on earth and not the other, just as nourishing and useful animals? Some mushroom could be part of that answer. Other than decreasing anxiety for terminally ill, there is also good evidence for MDMA as helping with PTSD, Cannabis as useful for pain and apetite stimulation with cancer patients and a variety of other uses. People also seem to forget the relation to dopamine and serotonin systems of the brain, where psychedelic studies have made considerable contribution; even in design of new drugs. If you say psychedelics are trivial, did nothing for research in medicine, resulted in nothing, check maps.org or for concrete articles: https://www.erowid.org/references/refs.php?C=Hof PGC On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:49 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. True, but here it's perhaps important to make a distinction between permanent synesthesia and the temporary kind that can be caused by psychedelics. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found,
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 Apr 2014, at 13:49, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. True, but here it's perhaps important to make a distinction between permanent synesthesia and the temporary kind that can be caused by psychedelics. OK. I think we agree that psychotropic substance play some role in the development of life in animal. Then it is even more obvious for civilsation, if you look at the story of wine, (blood's christ!), tobacco, etc. Now I have not studied enough the relation between language and synestesia, and the relation between psychotropic and synesthesia to be able to conclude anything, actually. Bruno I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found, and sometimes with a difference (and sometime with some benefices). The brain do drugs all the time, it is part of our functioning, and indeed animals drugs themselves very often, and plants exploits this to manipulate insects. It looks also that the brain might have some hardcoded solution to support abnormal stress, like in grave illness and near death, and so some drugs can perhaps trigger those dormant programs, and people can get idea of what happens in such stress, or near death. That is consistent with evolution, because your species can benefit from particular abilities to survive in those high stress conditions, and it can help for surviving trauma in aggressive animals (like human), so that it can benefits to some population of genes. Such change of brains in high stress have been evidenced in mammals like mice and rats. Some animal brains secrete endo-tranquilizer when a prey is captured by some predator. Now there are millions of drugs, and they trigger different responses. Benefits and harms necessitate case by case analysis. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/16/2014 1:12 AM, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. What exactly was conceived? The mouse - from Xerox park? The OS, a single-user form of Unix? Color; the Amiga already had it? The combined monitor/processor? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/16/2014 6:38 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: If you say psychedelics are trivial, did nothing for research in medicine, resulted in nothing, check maps.org http://maps.org or for concrete articles: But the question was whether the produced useful ideas in those who took them - not in whether they were useful for studying brains function, which seems to be what all these papers are about. https://www.erowid.org/references/refs.php?C=Hof Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/16/2014 2:17 PM, LizR wrote: Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. Sure, I already excepted art - and not just music; a lot of writers and painters were inspired by alcohol and also by other 'drugs' like religion. Art is a way of communicating at a subconscious level and so it helps to be able to make synasthesia like connections between disparate things. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 17 April 2014 09:30, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:17 PM, LizR wrote: Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. Sure, I already excepted art - and not just music; a lot of writers and painters were inspired by alcohol and also by other 'drugs' like religion. Art is a way of communicating at a subconscious level and so it helps to be able to make synasthesia like connections between disparate things. OK, if you excepted art, then we agree on that. So if poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world it would seem that drugs have at least indirectly influenced other aspects of the human condition. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/16/2014 2:34 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 April 2014 09:30, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:17 PM, LizR wrote: Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. Sure, I already excepted art - and not just music; a lot of writers and painters were inspired by alcohol and also by other 'drugs' like religion. Art is a way of communicating at a subconscious level and so it helps to be able to make synasthesia like connections between disparate things. OK, if you excepted art, then we agree on that. So if poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world it would seem that drugs have at least indirectly influenced other aspects of the human condition. That's a big if. Brent Poetry is the art of making the worse seem the better and the lesser the greater. --- David Hume -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 17 April 2014 09:38, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:34 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 April 2014 09:30, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:17 PM, LizR wrote: Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. Sure, I already excepted art - and not just music; a lot of writers and painters were inspired by alcohol and also by other 'drugs' like religion. Art is a way of communicating at a subconscious level and so it helps to be able to make synasthesia like connections between disparate things. OK, if you excepted art, then we agree on that. So if poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world it would seem that drugs have at least indirectly influenced other aspects of the human condition. That's a big if. Only if you take it literally. (You really should allow Shelley some poetic licence!) If you take it as it was intended, it's fairly obvious that poets, writers, musicians and so on have a huge influence on culture, and hence on everyone else. (So drugs do at least have an indirect influence on the entire culture...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 12:58:49PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2014 1:12 AM, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. What exactly was conceived? The mouse - from Xerox park? The OS, a single-user form of Unix? Color; the Amiga already had it? The combined monitor/processor? Brent Yeah - I think we've already dealt with it being the Apple computer being conceived in 1974, not the Mac (which came much later, around '82 or '83 IIRC, as a reaction to the expensive Lisa computer they were then trying to produce). On your other things - the mouse was invented in the '60s - I think at Xerox PARC IIRC. The original MacOS (up to and including MacOS 9) bore no relationship to Unix. Unix came to the Mac with the second coming of Jobs in the late '90s. The first Macs were back and white - the first colour Mac I saw was in 1986. PCs with colour monitors appeared around the same time, and as you mention, the Amiga was around by that time. As for the original Apple computer being conceived whilst Jobs was stoned - any evidence? -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 17 April 2014 07:58, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 1:12 AM, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. What exactly was conceived? The mouse - from Xerox park? The OS, a single-user form of Unix? Color; the Amiga already had it? The combined monitor/processor? No it was more, Hey, what if everyone - you know ... had a big - computer...thing. Yeah man. Like wow! What were we talking about? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
I'm especially fascinated by this theory that human consciousness got going via the plant teachers in the first place. I was listening to Benjamin Britten's operatic version of A Midsummer Night's Dream the other day and it's easy to see that Shakespeare was fascinated by altered states of consciousness. Essentially that play is about consciousness-altering via herbal intervention. Kim Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au kmjco...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain On 14 Apr 2014, at 9:04 pm, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Cool. On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174 Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway. Nice. Bruno Kim Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: I'm especially fascinated by this theory that human consciousness got going via the plant teachers in the first place. An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I was listening to Benjamin Britten's operatic version of A Midsummer Night's Dream the other day and it's easy to see that Shakespeare was fascinated by altered states of consciousness. Essentially that play is about consciousness-altering via herbal intervention. Kim Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au kmjco...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com *Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain* On 14 Apr 2014, at 9:04 pm, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Cool. On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174 Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway. Nice. Bruno Kim Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 15 Apr 2014, at 8:41 pm, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: I'm especially fascinated by this theory that human consciousness got going via the plant teachers in the first place. An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Kim I was listening to Benjamin Britten's operatic version of A Midsummer Night's Dream the other day and it's easy to see that Shakespeare was fascinated by altered states of consciousness. Essentially that play is about consciousness-altering via herbal intervention. Kim Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au kmjco...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain On 14 Apr 2014, at 9:04 pm, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Cool. On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174 Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway. Nice. Bruno Kim Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 8:41 pm, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.auwrote: I'm especially fascinated by this theory that human consciousness got going via the plant teachers in the first place. An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... Telmo. Kim I was listening to Benjamin Britten's operatic version of A Midsummer Night's Dream the other day and it's easy to see that Shakespeare was fascinated by altered states of consciousness. Essentially that play is about consciousness-altering via herbal intervention. Kim Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au kmjco...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com *Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain* On 14 Apr 2014, at 9:04 pm, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Cool. On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174 Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway. Nice. Bruno Kim Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk) On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Brent And there also is the whole evolution of our vocal chords dimension... without the ability to modulate and control sound that our vocal chords give us we would not have spoken language, beyond rudimentary grunts. Chimps lack our vocalization ability, the range of sounds they can produce is very limited as compared with our species. Spoken language at least depends on having the physical ability to produce a wide variety of sounds and pitches in a controlled manner. Chimps and other apes are pretty adept at learning symbolic sign (or other symbols) language -- mastering a symbolic vocabulary of (if I recall correctly) around 500 symbols or so, but they cannot speak because they do not have vocal chords -- at least not ones that can be controlled to produce such a wide variety of sounds like our human vocal chords can. Chris -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 12:44:32 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. I don't have any particular view on the possible role that psychedelics played in human evolution, but I can see how synesthesia could be an advantage if there were reason to think that it were present in some meaningful way. There is a guy who has acquired musical savant ability because he can see graphic symbols of notes that show him how to play. That sort of thing could be developed for language just as easily. The one who can see or hear or taste the sensibility of language could very well be in the best position to build consistent and aesthetically harmonized ways of integrating verbal language with gestures and writing. It would only be confusing if consciousness was an isolated program that can only build from the bottom up rather than the unifying resource of all phenomenabut there is no reason that we have to assume something like that. Craig Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) Telmo. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/15/2014 1:41 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I think the analogy is wrong. Brains compute by chemical transmitters. So when we interfere with the chemistry, its analogous to changing program steps in a digital computer - not to messing with the substrate (e.g. silicon). A brain is a neural network. It can (probably) be simulated by a digital computer; but the simulation will be a low level. At that level LSD would be simulated as changing some connection strengths. Brent Telmo. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/15/2014 3:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... I can see attributing some artistic ideas to the psychedelics, but I think the anti-establishment vibe came from the Viet Nam war and sexual freedom came from the pill. Ideals of equality drove the civil rights movement and its natural extension was to equal rights for women. I don't see any useful insights as having come from psychedelics. Sure, their effect is interesting from a neurophysiological standpoint - but so are brain lesions. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 April 2014 10:32, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 3:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... I can see attributing some artistic ideas to the psychedelics, but I think the anti-establishment vibe came from the Viet Nam war and sexual freedom came from the pill. Ideals of equality drove the civil rights movement and its natural extension was to equal rights for women. The anti-establishment vibe didn't just come from Viet Nam by a long shot. Britain in the 60s was reacting against the austerity and downright terror of the Second World War and having come so close to having been amalgamated into the Third Reich, the anti-estab vibe was particularly directed at Colonel Blimp type military figures because these had been in the public consciousness since WW2 as authority figures, but I suspect it was also a shadow of the anti-Nazi feeling that had gone before it, who were after all the ultimate authoritarians. (This is in my opinion the origin of Dalekmania.) However, I agree it wasn't specifically due to drugs, those were more involved in the explosion of artistic creativity that happened around the same time, notably the Beatles, new wave science fiction, Pop art, the huge diversity of new fashions, TV shows like Dr Who and The Prisoner ... I could go on but I don't want to bore you. I agree with you about the pill (although technically that *is* a drug :) I don't see any useful insights as having come from psychedelics. Sure, their effect is interesting from a neurophysiological standpoint - but so are brain lesions. Depends if you call Dark side of the Moon or whatever a useful insight, I guess. As someone said, if you don't like drugs, you'd better burn your music collection. And much of literature and art, of course. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:32 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk) On 4/15/2014 3:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... I can see attributing some artistic ideas to the psychedelics, but I think the anti-establishment vibe came from the Viet Nam war and sexual freedom came from the pill. Ideals of equality drove the civil rights movement and its natural extension was to equal rights for women. I don't see any useful insights as having come from psychedelics. Sure, their effect is interesting from a neurophysiological standpoint - but so are brain lesions. One can argue, in fact I am doing so – grin – that it is a case of the sum being more than the parts. On one level, certainly, it is a neuro-active-chemical experience, but on another the experience (however it is induced) leads to the kindling within of a kind of 3p bird’s eye view on the self – re-joined into a much vaster cosmic web – and that emerges within the self – or can emerge where conditions for such emergence exist. It is this emergent awareness, not so much the various psychedelic drugs themselves that were, are, can be the agents that triggered awareness to trip over into the altered state of consciousness that is the more interesting phenomena of psychedelic experience. Once transcendent awareness emerges it can, on occasion, take root on its own, without the need for doorways to become chemically opened. Chris Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
Cool. On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174 Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway. Nice. Bruno Kim Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174 Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway. Nice. Bruno Kim Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
