subject:"RE\: The solar example of a town in Germany"


Ghibbs, I really do take it seriously, but I have also become aware that (from 
a behavioral anthropological view) even climate scientists can get corrupted, 
can follow their peers in to group think, just like anyone else. So, I say, 
even though its their expertise (indeed!) they may not be doing their declared 
job-deciding what can be proven. That aside, I personally guess that putting 
all that crap in the air cannot be good for us (duh!) but I suspect these 
rulers of our societies, are using a problem like GW as an excuse to glom 
power. Hence my pointing at their lack of frantic effort that we observe in 
real crises. That aside, many of the Green supporters, including billionaires, 
want a switch-off of dirty power, when they have nothing to replace it. If GW 
is now upon us, despite weeks and weeks or artic storms here in the continental 
US and Canada, 
then the we may not have time to implement solar anyway. Is it possible that GW 
is slow in arrival? What then?

What would I like? A particle of nothing? Do things like build a power grid 
that can switch power all around from any source, just in case the GW becomes 
flesh, plus protecting against solar flares, and do things like using eutectic 
salt storage, to contain solar and wind power for electricity. But I don't feel 
GW is upon us, nor, do I feel that our leaders are truly, serious. We have time 
for lots of innovations, if we have time, and I say we do. I could drone on, 
and will. 

-Original Message-
From: ghibbsa ghib...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Mar 2, 2014 12:19 am
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany



On Sunday, March 2, 2014 3:05:55 AM UTC, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
Yes Liz, I take the threat seriously, but am puzzled by the behavior of 
politicians, in anticipation of the historic calamity. The actions, even by 
true believers in AGW, does not compute. Secondly, why is North American, and 
European CO2, threaten the globe, but Chinese CO2 does not? This is a bit of a 
discrepancy. Lastly, I read mea culpa to the Eldars of Zion accusation as I 
their local leader, thus, I must recuse myself from this particularaccusation. 
Pax Vobiscum.

 
you don't seem to take it that seriously. But is this about climate science 
only? I only ask because there's this nefarious but very effective lobby outfit 
that traces its roots back into the days of tobacco harm denial. They use very 
reliable psychological devices to create that sense of doubt. They really 
played hardball toobeing willing to totally trash the reputation of science 
it secured their goals. Destroy individuals. Drive them to nervous breakdowns. 
Harass media outlets.,  
 
That's nothing of it either. What they did was create these networks of think 
tanks, lobbies, libertarian fronts, that all basically referenced and agreed 
and which were all basically run by the same people. That work on people, in 
the masses, very effectively because over time hearing the same ideas fropm 
different directions, fires up our final background conceptual framework. This 
is the one that evolution puts beyond our conscious reach. We can access, and 
even shape it, but only indirectly by creating recurrent commitments or rituals 
- or exercize. Also things like incantations  - repeating with emphasis - will 
begin to access that framework. 
 
It's a really important framework, this is where it gets decided what 
background reality is., What social respectability is. What is illegitimate and 
what is legitimate. 
 
 
It can be, and is, and has been, shaped, that background framework of ours, 
most of us anyway, , by this malicious sort of activist strategy
 
I think the reason we respond this way, is either  because it kind of makes 
sense an individual needs to be in a process of deciding what is  intrinsic to 
reality that we need not consciousluy register it
 
I mean look, just for the reality of scum like that screwing everyone over, 
there chances of a rational society wide decision making process. I mean what a 
way to say you don't care about anything. Just them being there makes me get 
behind the climate science and the scientists. Double other sciences
-Original Message-
From: LizR liz...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: 01-Mar-2014 21:13:39 +
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany




On 2 March 2014 14:01, Chris de Morsella cdemo...@yahoo.com wrote:


 
From: everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of spudb...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:38 PM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

 

You  need to power all civilization, once the leaders shut down all the dirty 
power. What can we replace it with. What do we have we have ready to go. The 
leaders all global Warming, so what can we do? They say its imminent. 
 
Who are these “leaders” you seem so worked up

Re: The solar example of a town in Germany


Hmm. Show me how I disinformed? Oh! By disagreeing. Ah! But what are the facts? 
What is the behavior of pols and billionaires? Where's the panic over 
inundating waters? No crash programs? I guess its easy to be lied to, if one is 
bought off by ideology in the first place. The cause and effect part of the 
brain must go to sleep. 


-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Mar 2, 2014 1:12 am
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany



On 2 March 2014 18:19,  ghib...@gmail.com wrote:



On Sunday, March 2, 2014 3:05:55 AM UTC, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
Yes Liz, I take the threat seriously, but am puzzled by the behavior of 
politicians, in anticipation of the historic calamity. The actions, even by 
true believers in AGW, does not compute. Secondly, why is North American, and 
European CO2, threaten the globe, but Chinese CO2 does not? This is a bit of a 
discrepancy. Lastly, I read mea culpa to the Eldars of Zion accusation as I 
their local leader, thus, I must recuse myself from this particularaccusation. 
Pax Vobiscum.

 

you don't seem to take it that seriously. But is this about climate science 
only? I only ask because there's this nefarious but very effective lobby outfit 
that traces its roots back into the days of tobacco harm denial. They use very 
reliable psychological devices to create that sense of doubt. They really 
played hardball toobeing willing to totally trash the reputation of science 
it secured their goals. Destroy individuals. Drive them to nervous breakdowns. 
Harass media outlets.,  



This is kind of a touchstone for these disinformation based organisations. They 
created institutes specifically to push some agenda. We've had tobacco, big 
oil, and of course the anti-evolution lot, all with their own think tanks and 
institutes. Personally I reckon they got the idea from L Ron Hubbard, who 
once got into a conversation with fellow science fiction writers - I forget 
who, say James Blish and John W Campbell Jr, for the sake of argument - and 
they all proposed crazy ideas about how one could create a science based 
religion. We could have little devices that let people measure their state of 
spiritual health! they chortled, imagining this was just one of those games SF 
writers love to indulge in - little realising that Hubbard was making mental 
notes of everything they said.



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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread John Clark

On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 2:50 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 I wanted to ask 'why the closed mind FOR solar?


I have nothing against solar and  I'm in favor of anything that works, but
there is a reason it hasn't taken over by now and its not because of a
sinister secret ruling cabal that enjoys kicking puppies and breathing
dirty air, it's because with current technology solar energy is just too
dilute and unreliable for most (not all) applications. What I'm saying is
that energy supply is a very important matter an unrealistic expectations
can be downright dangerous and with current technology solar can't even
come close to replacing fossil fuel. I wish it were otherwise but wishing
does not make it true.

 No Windfarms?


If they ever became really common environmentalists would fight to the
death to stop them. Windfarms are ugly, they're noisy, they disrupt global
wind patterns, and they kill little birds.

 no Geotherm?


If it ever became really common environmentalists would fight to the death
to stop it. Geothermal smells bad, if fouls the groundwater, and causes
earthquakes.

Environmentalist love any new energy source as long as it's just on paper
and is never put into practice; they prefer the solution of freezing to
death in the dark.

  John K Clark

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread John Clark

On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 9:13 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:


 By the way, here is some scientific evidence, in case you're interested.

 http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

 [image: Inline images 1]



If that chart is supposed to be scary it isn't, it shows a .74 degree
Celsius increase in temperature from 1906 to 2005. Ice ages are rare and
we're coming off the tail end of one right now, so if you picked any time
at random in the last 100 million years you can be almost certain that is
was warmer than now, possibly MUCH warmer; at one time Antarctica was
subtropical and the home of cold blooded reptiles, yet back then the
continent was only slightly further north than it is now, and northern
Canada was even closer to the pole than it is now but dinosaurs lived
there. in spite of the warmth the ecosystem on this planet adapted, life
still existed. In fact in the last billion years it has never been warmer
than during the Carboniferous Era 360 million years ago, and I don't
believe life has ever been quite that plentiful again.

  John K Clark

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread meekerdb


On 3/1/2014 11:20 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:


*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On 
Behalf Of *meekerdb

*Sent:* Saturday, March 01, 2014 11:14 PM
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3/1/2014 10:59 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *LizR

Speaking of which, Heinlein would have loved this:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140302.html

I grok that

One of the best words ever invented* -- IMO --thank you Heinlein.


I think it was suggested by the poems of Piet Hein.

*Piet Hein* (16 December 1905 -- 17 April 1996) was a Danish 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_people scientist, mathematician, inventor, 
designer, author, and poet, often writing under the Old Norse pseudonym *Kumbel* 
meaning tombstone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_stone. His short poems, known as 
/gruks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grook/ or grooks (Danish: /gruk/), first started 
to appear in the daily newspaper /Politiken http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politiken/ 
shortly after the Nazi occupation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Denmark 
in April 1940 under the pseudonym *Kumbel Kumbell*.^[1] 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Hein_%28scientist%29#cite_note-1


^The poems contained anti-nazi meanings which could only be grasped intuitively by the 
Danish.


Interesting; always thought it originated from that book. So then is grok 
steganography?



It's usually credited to Heinlein, but I'll bet Heinlein had read some of Hein's grooks; 
he published several books of them in english.  I think I still have a couple.


Brent

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 05:33, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Hmm. Show me how I disinformed? Oh! By disagreeing. Ah! But what are the
 facts? What is the behavior of pols and billionaires? Where's the panic
 over inundating waters? No crash programs? I guess its easy to be lied to,
 if one is bought off by ideology in the first place. The cause and effect
 part of the brain must go to sleep.


Hang on, spudboy, if I read you right you are taking personally a comment I
made about the behaviour of certain organisations who want to give a
spurious scientific front to their already-decided views. Unless you're a
member of the Discovery institute or something, that wasn't directed at you
personally!


  -Original Message-
 From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sun, Mar 2, 2014 1:12 am
 Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

   This is kind of a touchstone for these disinformation based
 organisations. They created institutes specifically to push some agenda.
 We've had tobacco, big oil, and of course the anti-evolution lot, all with
 their own think tanks and institutes. Personally I reckon they got the
 idea from L Ron Hubbard, who once got into a conversation with fellow
 science fiction writers - I forget who, say James Blish and John W Campbell
 Jr, for the sake of argument - and they all proposed crazy ideas about how
 one could create a science based religion. We could have little devices
 that let people measure their state of spiritual health! they chortled,
 imagining this was just one of those games SF writers love to indulge in -
 little realising that Hubbard was making mental notes of everything they
 said.



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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 05:24, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 If GW is now upon us, despite weeks and weeks or artic storms here in the
 continental US and Canada,


Oh, we had a cold winter so global warming's a myth! Please be serious. I
assume you know enough about climate science to realise that arctic storms
have to be driven by something, and one prediction of climate change is
that it will provide more energy to whip up storms. The real questions are
- is the average temperature of the earth increasing (see the graph I
provided) and what effects is this likely to have? The latter is the more
complex issue, but more and more ferocious storms seems to be one
prediction. I don't know if we're having those or not - it's hard to tell
when there's so much disinformation flying around - but since I was the one
who bothered to actually check the temperature data, maybe it's your turn
to do some research on storms?

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 07:53, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 9:13 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:


 By the way, here is some scientific evidence, in case you're interested.

 http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

 [image: Inline images 1]



 If that chart is supposed to be scary it isn't, it shows a .74 degree
 Celsius increase in temperature from 1906 to 2005.


No, it's supposed to be factual. I get fed up with these ad hominem rants
no one is trying to scare you any more than common sense indicates you
should be scared. Please try to grow up and leave out this sort of childish
comment.


 Ice ages are rare and we're coming off the tail end of one right now, so
 if you picked any time at random in the last 100 million years you can be
 almost certain that is was warmer than now, possibly MUCH warmer; at one
 time Antarctica was subtropical and the home of cold blooded reptiles, yet
 back then the continent was only slightly further north than it is now, and
 northern Canada was even closer to the pole than it is now but dinosaurs
 lived there. in spite of the warmth the ecosystem on this planet adapted,
 life still existed. In fact in the last billion years it has never been
 warmer than during the Carboniferous Era 360 million years ago, and I don't
 believe life has ever been quite that plentiful again.

 Sorry to be anthropcentric but I don't want the world turned subtropical
if it means homo sapiens loses everything it's achieved. I'm in favour of
intelligence and technology, not evolution and the rule of giant lizards.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread Russell Standish

On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 01:31:28PM -0500, John Clark wrote:
 On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 2:50 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  I wanted to ask 'why the closed mind FOR solar?
 
 
 I have nothing against solar and  I'm in favor of anything that works, but
 there is a reason it hasn't taken over by now and its not because of a
 sinister secret ruling cabal that enjoys kicking puppies and breathing
 dirty air, it's because with current technology solar energy is just too
 dilute and unreliable for most (not all) applications. What I'm saying is
 that energy supply is a very important matter an unrealistic expectations
 can be downright dangerous and with current technology solar can't even
 come close to replacing fossil fuel. I wish it were otherwise but wishing
 does not make it true.
 

Solar PV only reached cost parity with oil in the last couple of
years, and is still a year or two away from doing the same with
coal. That is a combination falling prices of PV, and rising prices of
fossil fuels.

One wouldn't expect PV to have replaced fossil fuel yet - but it looks
like it will do so fairly shortly.


  No Windfarms?
 
 
 If they ever became really common environmentalists would fight to the
 death to stop them. Windfarms are ugly, they're noisy, they disrupt global
 wind patterns, and they kill little birds.
 

That seems to depend on the country. In Denmark, they're quite
popular. In the UK, there is some resistance from environmental
groups. Here in Australia, it is still a small, but growing segment of
energy provision (coal is still really cheap here). One problem (being
worked on) is how to predict accurately what the weather will be at
the turbine blades (accurate micro-weather simulation) so as to
optimise the spot market contract prices. That is being worked on
right now.

  no Geotherm?
 
 
 If it ever became really common environmentalists would fight to the death
 to stop it. Geothermal smells bad, if fouls the groundwater, and causes
 earthquakes.

Aside from places like NZ which are already set up for geothermal, I
suspect this is still not ready for prime time.

But the disadvantages you mention above also apply to fracking, and
that seems to be a full-speed juggernaut in spite of the environmental 
objections!

 
 Environmentalist love any new energy source as long as it's just on paper
 and is never put into practice; they prefer the solution of freezing to
 death in the dark.
 
   John K Clark
 

-- 


Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany


Its not just the weather outside, its worldwide, its not matching the models I 
have looked at (courtesy IPCC and NASA) and they fall down. Inaccurate. Word 
games are played by your side, demonstrating that its been the 2nd hottest year 
on record, squeal! But, why not go for clean energy? Do we have it? Do we have 
it ready to go? Should we do it when the great inundation is about us. Its not 
about a fix, a way out, its about job security for climate scientists (you need 
us you really need us-especially when we're appointed to government jobs), its 
about billionaires manipulating the system to their own benefit, and its about 
ideologists pursuing their religion. 

Oh, we had a cold winter so global warming's a myth! Please be serious. I 
assume you know enough about climate science to realise that arctic storms have 
to be driven by something, and one prediction of climate change is that it will 
provide more energy to whip up storms. The real questions are - is the average 
temperature of the earth increasing (see the graph I provided) and what effects 
is this likely to have? The latter is the more complex issue, but more and 
more ferocious storms seems to be one prediction. I don't know if we're having 
those or not - it's hard to tell when there's so much disinformation flying 
around - but since I was the one who bothered to actually check the temperature 
data, maybe it's your turn to do some research on storms?





-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Mar 2, 2014 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany



On 3 March 2014 05:24,  spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

If GW is now upon us, despite weeks and weeks or artic storms here in the 
continental US and Canada, 



Oh, we had a cold winter so global warming's a myth! Please be serious. I 
assume you know enough about climate science to realise that arctic storms have 
to be driven by something, and one prediction of climate change is that it will 
provide more energy to whip up storms. The real questions are - is the average 
temperature of the earth increasing (see the graph I provided) and what effects 
is this likely to have? The latter is the more complex issue, but more and 
more ferocious storms seems to be one prediction. I don't know if we're having 
those or not - it's hard to tell when there's so much disinformation flying 
around - but since I was the one who bothered to actually check the temperature 
data, maybe it's your turn to do some research on storms?




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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread John Mikes

Dear Russell,

please allow me to address your contribution after so much of emotionally
impaired and poorly adjusted hoopla
in this discussion. Let me join your considerate way - if I am capable of -
and speak about SOME details only.
I spent a lifetime in environmentally 'infected' science/technology RD so
my conclusions are not just hot air - I hope.

We are not ready to switch from the polluting practices into 'clean' (not
RENEWABLE, please) energy. JohnK's
remark on 'geotherm' are unfounded. The methods he visualizes are in the
obsolescence of one method. What I was
hintig at, is a lowered (deepened?) double-tube in types like ongoing oil
wells in a closed system, pumping down
ultrapure deionized water and letting up high pressure steam into turbines.
I have nothing against solar applications
with certain caveats I explained lately. Hydro-applications depend on the
subsistence of ground water (questioned
after the snowcaps melted away).

Main point:* we will need a multiple production of energy *and are not
ready to choose what kind.
Maybe all of them? I consider the energy domain as 'second' - we still
manage as well as we can.
The first biggest concern  is water, for* irrigation*, for *potable* (human
- animal) for *industry* and *ENERGY purposes*.
There is plenty in the oceans (*ref: *Liz asking about a bigger energy
source nearby than the sun). Desalination to
different levels may take care of all the listed problems.

It is a question of willingness! as long as our well established
capitalists insist in reaping profits from existing plants,
(fossil that is). Their 'owned' governments will do nothing. It is (and
will be) a long struggle and a successful research.
Those people of goodwill who want to 'set' the problem by today's
knowledge/means are doing a disservice to all.

Then, - when new results are available, the third biggest problem can be
addressed: food from available sources,
no matter if synthesized from fossil products, plants, or purely synthetic
basis (atmospheric) for a population on Earth
(hopefully in reduced numbers, both as human and animal counts.)

I would not go into dreamlike prophecy  of millions of years. We have not
the foundation of thinking ahead so far.

Besst regards

John Mikes Ph.D., D.Sc. ret. scientist




On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote:

 On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 01:31:28PM -0500, John Clark wrote:
  On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 2:50 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   I wanted to ask 'why the closed mind FOR solar?
  
 
  I have nothing against solar and  I'm in favor of anything that works,
 but
  there is a reason it hasn't taken over by now and its not because of a
  sinister secret ruling cabal that enjoys kicking puppies and breathing
  dirty air, it's because with current technology solar energy is just too
  dilute and unreliable for most (not all) applications. What I'm saying is
  that energy supply is a very important matter an unrealistic expectations
  can be downright dangerous and with current technology solar can't even
  come close to replacing fossil fuel. I wish it were otherwise but wishing
  does not make it true.
 

 Solar PV only reached cost parity with oil in the last couple of
 years, and is still a year or two away from doing the same with
 coal. That is a combination falling prices of PV, and rising prices of
 fossil fuels.

 One wouldn't expect PV to have replaced fossil fuel yet - but it looks
 like it will do so fairly shortly.


   No Windfarms?
  
 
  If they ever became really common environmentalists would fight to the
  death to stop them. Windfarms are ugly, they're noisy, they disrupt
 global
  wind patterns, and they kill little birds.
 

 That seems to depend on the country. In Denmark, they're quite
 popular. In the UK, there is some resistance from environmental
 groups. Here in Australia, it is still a small, but growing segment of
 energy provision (coal is still really cheap here). One problem (being
 worked on) is how to predict accurately what the weather will be at
 the turbine blades (accurate micro-weather simulation) so as to
 optimise the spot market contract prices. That is being worked on
 right now.

   no Geotherm?
  
 
  If it ever became really common environmentalists would fight to the
 death
  to stop it. Geothermal smells bad, if fouls the groundwater, and causes
  earthquakes.

 Aside from places like NZ which are already set up for geothermal, I
 suspect this is still not ready for prime time.

 But the disadvantages you mention above also apply to fracking, and
 that seems to be a full-speed juggernaut in spite of the environmental
 objections!

 
  Environmentalist love any new energy source as long as it's just on paper
  and is never put into practice; they prefer the solution of freezing to
  death in the dark.
 
John K Clark
 

 --


 
 Prof Russell Standish

Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy

Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement comes to mind. It's seen as a silent,
gradual but finalizing invasion of Europe/US sovereignty by large corporate
interests, according to Le Monde as example. Harmonization of for
example environmental and health standards entail the imposition of the
lowest, market friendliest standards for all...

Otherwise of course, this whole thing will not make sense according to the
most powerful lobbies. Not just large US corporations, but the UK's
financial industry is pushing hard for the lowering of standards as well.

Labor unions in Europe will have to scale back demands and expectations,
because we need lower standards across the board, to harmonize. Apparently,
Europe's standards in way too many areas, including agriculture, food
production, industrial waste, hydraulic fracturing, or limiting corporate
interests' legal power to sue for losses due to balance sheet losses,
consumer protection etc. are way too high/strong.

If you're some large fossil fuel based corporation, you should be able to
sue governments and taxpayers more effectively for their irresponsible
market behavior in developing more sustainable technologies, because this
costs jobs and slows real growth and profit.

Germany will be interesting to watch in this regard, because popular
opinion/protest is mobilizing against much of this, but government and the
ever present German guilt over the war, puts the country in no position to
say (dictate...) much, even if many politicians are convinced by
sustainability concerns, via their records. So no say there. Especially not
to allied interests of large corporations and US/UK savior alliance, that
saved the world AND them from themselves. Germany is said to have sent
lightweight obedient to the negotiations, and at this point you can't
expect more from a country who's head of state has her phone bugged and
manages a Spying among friends is not good statement, as consequence.

Media is fed bits and pieces of transparency in EU, as in some US
lobbyist going your food safety standards are way too high... why not dip
your chickens in Cl before packaging to save on all these stupid costs of
keeping farms clean you impose etc. (as if you could eat from the floor of
an EU farm...), but members from European Parliament are barred from seeing
the actual texts being negotiated, that lobbyists are said to be actively
penning, helping us to harmonize properly.

And guess what? The European Centre for International Political Economy,
that should ideologically be favoring this endeavor, predicts GDP growth
of 0-point something percent! This relies on you giving faith to lower
customs means increased growth, which is quite blue eyed. If you don't buy
this, according to the authors of the study, then indeed, GDP growth will
increase only by 0.06 percent... from 2029 onwards though. So a family of
four will increase its income per member by around 4.54 Euros a month, in
about a ten year span.

Not hard to see who has the upper hand here and where things are headed
concerning this. Uhm...lower standards for the growth. But we really
want/have to test our luck to not even produce that growth, don't we? PGC


On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 11:45 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Heh, understood Liz, thanks, but I wasn't offended, merely, puzzled. No, a
 6000 year old Earth is not what I see either. I would just warn you, or
 surprise you, that even lots of Phd's get 'bought-off' by being on the
 'right side' of politicians who provide employment in academia, and the
 rich that fund the pols. I also just wanted to focus on when the climate
 whammy will happen, and we can do about?
  -Original Message-
 From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sun, Mar 2, 2014 5:09 pm
 Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

   On 3 March 2014 05:33, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

  Hmm. Show me how I disinformed? Oh! By disagreeing. Ah! But what are
 the facts? What is the behavior of pols and billionaires? Where's the panic
 over inundating waters? No crash programs? I guess its easy to be lied to,
 if one is bought off by ideology in the first place. The cause and effect
 part of the brain must go to sleep.


  Hang on, spudboy, if I read you right you are taking personally a
 comment I made about the behaviour of certain organisations who want to
 give a spurious scientific front to their already-decided views. Unless
 you're a member of the Discovery institute or something, that wasn't
 directed at you personally!


   -Original Message-
 From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
  Sent: Sun, Mar 2, 2014 1:12 am
 Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

This is kind of a touchstone for these disinformation based
 organisations. They created institutes specifically to push some agenda.
 We've had tobacco, big oil, and of course the anti-evolution lot, all with
 their own think

Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 11:45, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 I also just wanted to focus on when the climate whammy will happen, and we
 can do about?

 That's the $64 trillion question, indeed. I'm happy to focus on that,
rather than speculating about which left- or right-wing conspiracy is
currently trying to obfuscate the facts.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 12:42, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Its not just the weather outside, its worldwide, its not matching the
 models I have looked at (courtesy IPCC and NASA) and they fall down.
 Inaccurate. Word games are played by your side, demonstrating that its been
 the 2nd hottest year on record, squeal! But,


Still having difficulty taking you seriously when you make comments like
this, especially with references to my side - that already shows you're
making unwarranted assumptions about my views on this matter. If we have
the hottest year on record, how is that a word game, exactly? Either it's
the hottest year on record or it isn't. And climate modelling isn't the
issue. We all know that's very difficult, that the earth is a complex
system full of feedback loops, so if you warm it up you MAY increase cloud
cover and hence cool it down (if you're very lucky - alternatively, you MAY
melt the methane clathrate and blow us all to kingdom come). The question
is what are we going to do, given that (a) we are destroying the
environment right now, in a measurable way, (b) we're going to run out of
fossil fuel eventually, and (c) we may have already precipitated a climate
crisis, with unpredictable consequences?


 why not go for clean energy? Do we have it? Do we have it ready to go?
 Should we do it when the great inundation is about us. Its not about a fix,
 a way out, its about job security for climate scientists (you need us you
 really need us-especially when we're appointed to government jobs), its
 about billionaires manipulating the system to their own benefit, and its
 about ideologists pursuing their religion.

 It's still hard to see what you're saying, or to find a point in the above
worthy of the name.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 13:06, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Dear Russell,

 please allow me to address your contribution after so much of emotionally
 impaired and poorly adjusted hoopla
 in this discussion. Let me join your considerate way - if I am capable of
 - and speak about SOME details only.
 I spent a lifetime in environmentally 'infected' science/technology RD so
 my conclusions are not just hot air - I hope.

 We are not ready to switch from the polluting practices into 'clean' (not
 RENEWABLE, please) energy. JohnK's


My apologies if you don't like renewable - obviously the Sun will run
down eventually, and so on, but it seems like a reasonable term to use on
the human scale.


 remark on 'geotherm' are unfounded. The methods he visualizes are in the
 obsolescence of one method. What I was
 hintig at, is a lowered (deepened?) double-tube in types like ongoing oil
 wells in a closed system, pumping down
 ultrapure deionized water and letting up high pressure steam into
 turbines. I have nothing against solar applications
 with certain caveats I explained lately. Hydro-applications depend on the
 subsistence of ground water (questioned
 after the snowcaps melted away).

 Main point:* we will need a multiple production of energy *and are not
 ready to choose what kind.
 Maybe all of them? I consider the energy domain as 'second' - we still
 manage as well as we can.
 The first biggest concern  is water, for* irrigation*, for *potable*(human - 
 animal) for
 *industry* and *ENERGY purposes*.
 There is plenty in the oceans (*ref: *Liz asking about a bigger energy
 source nearby than the sun). Desalination to
 different levels may take care of all the listed problems.


Yes, water is going to be a huge problem, indeed it already is in many
parts of the world. Again I apologise for not highlighting this myself
because it's a big concern.


 It is a question of willingness! as long as our well established
 capitalists insist in reaping profits from existing plants,
 (fossil that is). Their 'owned' governments will do nothing. It is (and
 will be) a long struggle and a successful research.


This isn't completely true but it is about 90%.


 Those people of goodwill who want to 'set' the problem by today's
 knowledge/means are doing a disservice to all.


Well if us people of goodwill don't look at the problem using today's
knowledge/means (and maybe try to envisage tomorrow's) who is going to do
anything?!





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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 13:51, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.comwrote:

 Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement comes to mind. It's seen as a silent,
 gradual but finalizing invasion of Europe/US sovereignty by large corporate
 interests, according to Le Monde as example. Harmonization of for
 example environmental and health standards entail the imposition of the
 lowest, market friendliest standards for all...

 Otherwise of course, this whole thing will not make sense according to the
 most powerful lobbies. Not just large US corporations, but the UK's
 financial industry is pushing hard for the lowering of standards as well.

 Labor unions in Europe will have to scale back demands and expectations,
 because we need lower standards across the board, to harmonize. Apparently,
 Europe's standards in way too many areas, including agriculture, food
 production, industrial waste, hydraulic fracturing, or limiting corporate
 interests' legal power to sue for losses due to balance sheet losses,
 consumer protection etc. are way too high/strong.

 If you're some large fossil fuel based corporation, you should be able to
 sue governments and taxpayers more effectively for their irresponsible
 market behavior in developing more sustainable technologies, because this
 costs jobs and slows real growth and profit.

 Germany will be interesting to watch in this regard, because popular
 opinion/protest is mobilizing against much of this, but government and the
 ever present German guilt over the war, puts the country in no position to
 say (dictate...) much, even if many politicians are convinced by
 sustainability concerns, via their records. So no say there. Especially not
 to allied interests of large corporations and US/UK savior alliance, that
 saved the world AND them from themselves. Germany is said to have sent
 lightweight obedient to the negotiations, and at this point you can't
 expect more from a country who's head of state has her phone bugged and
 manages a Spying among friends is not good statement, as consequence.

 Media is fed bits and pieces of transparency in EU, as in some US
 lobbyist going your food safety standards are way too high... why not dip
 your chickens in Cl before packaging to save on all these stupid costs of
 keeping farms clean you impose etc. (as if you could eat from the floor of
 an EU farm...), but members from European Parliament are barred from seeing
 the actual texts being negotiated, that lobbyists are said to be actively
 penning, helping us to harmonize properly.

 And guess what? The European Centre for International Political Economy,
 that should ideologically be favoring this endeavor, predicts GDP growth
 of 0-point something percent! This relies on you giving faith to lower
 customs means increased growth, which is quite blue eyed. If you don't buy
 this, according to the authors of the study, then indeed, GDP growth will
 increase only by 0.06 percent... from 2029 onwards though. So a family of
 four will increase its income per member by around 4.54 Euros a month, in
 about a ten year span.

 Not hard to see who has the upper hand here and where things are headed
 concerning this. Uhm...lower standards for the growth. But we really
 want/have to test our luck to not even produce that growth, don't we? PGC

 Thank God I live in New Zealand!

Although of course we're doing our best to screw it up...

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany


Well to the idea about clathrates, is that if we cannot develop solar or 
fusion, we'll have to use gas hydrate to survive and burn it, rather than 
release it. I do keep informed and we do need to know what is occurring.  What 
does this say about our arguments?


http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/exec-office-other/climate-change-full.pdf

The political manipulations are fact, but like most people, we can do zero 
about it. We are as the eunuchs at the Roman orgy who can do nothing but point 
and gossip. I take your comment as you care not to gossip, which is 
understandable.
 
-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Mar 2, 2014 8:21 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany



On 3 March 2014 12:42,  spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Its not just the weather outside, its worldwide, its not matching the models I 
have looked at (courtesy IPCC and NASA) and they fall down. Inaccurate. Word 
games are played by your side, demonstrating that its been the 2nd hottest year 
on record, squeal! But, 



Still having difficulty taking you seriously when you make comments like this, 
especially with references to my side - that already shows you're making 
unwarranted assumptions about my views on this matter. If we have the hottest 
year on record, how is that a word game, exactly? Either it's the hottest year 
on record or it isn't. And climate modelling isn't the issue. We all know 
that's very difficult, that the earth is a complex system full of feedback 
loops, so if you warm it up you MAY increase cloud cover and hence cool it down 
(if you're very lucky - alternatively, you MAY melt the methane clathrate and 
blow us all to kingdom come). The question is what are we going to do, given 
that (a) we are destroying the environment right now, in a measurable way, (b) 
we're going to run out of fossil fuel eventually, and (c) we may have already 
precipitated a climate crisis, with unpredictable consequences?

 

why not go for clean energy? Do we have it? Do we have it ready to go? Should 
we do it when the great inundation is about us. Its not about a fix, a way out, 
its about job security for climate scientists (you need us you really need 
us-especially when we're appointed to government jobs), its about billionaires 
manipulating the system to their own benefit, and its about ideologists 
pursuing their religion.



 It's still hard to see what you're saying, or to find a point in the above 
worthy of the name.

 



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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread Chris de Morsella

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Platonist Guitar
Cowboy
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 4:51 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement comes to mind. It's seen as a silent,
gradual but finalizing invasion of Europe/US sovereignty by large corporate
interests, according to Le Monde as example. Harmonization of for
example environmental and health standards entail the imposition of the
lowest, market friendliest standards for all... 

Otherwise of course, this whole thing will not make sense according to the
most powerful lobbies. Not just large US corporations, but the UK's
financial industry is pushing hard for the lowering of standards as well.

Labor unions in Europe will have to scale back demands and expectations,
because we need lower standards across the board, to harmonize. Apparently,
Europe's standards in way too many areas, including agriculture, food
production, industrial waste, hydraulic fracturing, or limiting corporate
interests' legal power to sue for losses due to balance sheet losses,
consumer protection etc. are way too high/strong. 

If you're some large fossil fuel based corporation, you should be able to
sue governments and taxpayers more effectively for their irresponsible
market behavior in developing more sustainable technologies, because this
costs jobs and slows real growth and profit.   

Germany will be interesting to watch in this regard, because popular
opinion/protest is mobilizing against much of this, but government and the
ever present German guilt over the war, puts the country in no position to
say (dictate...) much, even if many politicians are convinced by
sustainability concerns, via their records. So no say there. Especially not
to allied interests of large corporations and US/UK savior alliance, that
saved the world AND them from themselves. Germany is said to have sent
lightweight obedient to the negotiations, and at this point you can't
expect more from a country who's head of state has her phone bugged and
manages a Spying among friends is not good statement, as consequence. 

Media is fed bits and pieces of transparency in EU, as in some US lobbyist
going your food safety standards are way too high... why not dip your
chickens in Cl before packaging to save on all these stupid costs of keeping
farms clean you impose etc. (as if you could eat from the floor of an EU
farm...), but members from European Parliament are barred from seeing the
actual texts being negotiated, that lobbyists are said to be actively
penning, helping us to harmonize properly. 

And guess what? The European Centre for International Political Economy,
that should ideologically be favoring this endeavor, predicts GDP growth
of 0-point something percent! This relies on you giving faith to lower
customs means increased growth, which is quite blue eyed. If you don't buy
this, according to the authors of the study, then indeed, GDP growth will
increase only by 0.06 percent... from 2029 onwards though. So a family of
four will increase its income per member by around 4.54 Euros a month, in
about a ten year span. 

Not hard to see who has the upper hand here and where things are headed
concerning this. Uhm...lower standards for the growth. But we really
want/have to test our luck to not even produce that growth, don't we? PGC

You are so right about the race to the bottom. The race so good for short
term profit; so foolish for long term preservation. With leadership like
this, one could ask: who needs enemies.

Chris

On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 11:45 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Heh, understood Liz, thanks, but I wasn't offended, merely, puzzled. No, a
6000 year old Earth is not what I see either. I would just warn you, or
surprise you, that even lots of Phd's get 'bought-off' by being on the
'right side' of politicians who provide employment in academia, and the rich
that fund the pols. I also just wanted to focus on when the climate whammy
will happen, and we can do about? 

-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sun, Mar 2, 2014 5:09 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 05:33, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Hmm. Show me how I disinformed? Oh! By disagreeing. Ah! But what are the
facts? What is the behavior of pols and billionaires? Where's the panic over
inundating waters? No crash programs? I guess its easy to be lied to, if one
is bought off by ideology in the first place. The cause and effect part of
the brain must go to sleep. 

Hang on, spudboy, if I read you right you are taking personally a comment I
made about the behaviour of certain organisations who want to give a
spurious scientific front to their already-decided views. Unless you're a
member of the Discovery institute or something, that wasn't directed at you

Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 14:58, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Well to the idea about clathrates, is that if we cannot develop solar or
 fusion, we'll have to use gas hydrate to survive and burn it, rather than
 release it. I do keep informed and we do need to know what is occurring.


Yes, mining offshore methane seems to be a possibility. This will of course
add to the greenhouse gases in the air (as solar and fusion wouldn't, or
not very much) which will perhaps continue the warming trend. The problem
is that if we warm the oceans very much - they're a lot harder to warm than
the atmosphere, of course - tt's possible that dissolved gases will come
out of suspension, so all the CO2 they've soaked up (and thereby kept
atmospheric levels down plus all the dissolved methane. The earth's
atmosphere was once mainly methane I believe so there's a lot available. A
so-called methane burp could mean the end of civilisation.


   What does this say about our arguments?


I don't know.



 http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/exec-office-other/climate-change-full.pdf

 The political manipulations are fact, but like most people, we can do zero
 about it. We are as the eunuchs at the Roman orgy who can do nothing but
 point and gossip. I take your comment as you care not to gossip, which is
 understandable.

 As you say there is no point. However I will take any action I think may
help (within reason, and given my parlous finances that isn't very far).

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 15:33, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:



 You are so right about the race to the bottom. The race so good for short
 term profit; so foolish for long term preservation. With leadership like
 this, one could ask: who needs enemies.

 Ain't that the truth. Of course Karl Marx had something to say about the
war between us and our (so called) leaders way back when.

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread Chris de Morsella

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:39 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 15:33, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:

You are so right about the race to the bottom. The race so good for short
term profit; so foolish for long term preservation. With leadership like
this, one could ask: who needs enemies.

Ain't that the truth. Of course Karl Marx had something to say about the war
between us and our (so called) leaders way back when.

He also said a few things about making enough rope. this global race to the
bottom will - IMO -- finally prove him correct on this point. It is
unsustainable on so many levels in the long term and yet it seems
unstoppable in the short term.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread meekerdb


On 3/2/2014 8:20 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:


*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On 
Behalf Of *LizR

*Sent:* Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:39 PM
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 15:33, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com 
mailto:cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:


You are so right about the race to the bottom. The race so good for short term profit; 
so foolish for long term preservation. With leadership like this, one could ask: who 
needs enemies.


Ain't that the truth. Of course Karl Marx had something to say about the war between us 
and our (so called) leaders way back when.


He also said a few things about making enough rope... this global race to the bottom 
will -- IMO -- finally prove him correct on this point. It is unsustainable on so many 
levels in the long term and yet it seems unstoppable in the short term.




Aren't you thinking of Thomas Malthus?

Brent

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-02 Thread Chris de Morsella

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 8:26 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3/2/2014 8:20 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:39 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3 March 2014 15:33, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:

You are so right about the race to the bottom. The race so good for short
term profit; so foolish for long term preservation. With leadership like
this, one could ask: who needs enemies.

Ain't that the truth. Of course Karl Marx had something to say about the war
between us and our (so called) leaders way back when.

He also said a few things about making enough rope. this global race to the
bottom will - IMO -- finally prove him correct on this point. It is
unsustainable on so many levels in the long term and yet it seems
unstoppable in the short term.

Aren't you thinking of Thomas Malthus?

The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.

Is the quote I was referring to. 

Brent

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-01 Thread John Clark

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 4:07 AM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote:

 It produces 4X the energy it needs just from the solar PV on the roofs of
 its buildings Isn't it amazing what you can accomplish with such dilute
 sources of energy. I include the link because the pictures are pretty cool,
 and illustrate what a solar city could look like.


 http://inhabitat.com/sonnenschiff-solar-city-produces-4x-the-energy-it-needs/

  What can I say


What I can say is that governments can get people to build anything no
matter how ridiculous if the bribe to do so is big enough. Germany has the
highest electricity prices in Europe, partially because they're shutting
down their nuclear plants but mostly because 50% of the average consumer's
electric bill goes into subsidizing solar energy.  So far the German
consumer has been forced to subsidize the solar cell industry to the tune
of 100 billion euros (128 billion dollars). So what did they get out of
those 128 billions dollars worth of solar cells? They reduced the amount of
CO2 in the atmosphere enough that by the end of this century they will have
delayed global warming by about 23 hours.

Even the Germans are starting to get fed up with this nonsense and say they
will pull the plug on solar subsidies by 2018. If so then, unless there are
major technological breakthroughs, you can expect the solar industry to
crash in 2018.

  John K Clark

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-01 Thread John Mikes

Spudboy and Liz:
I wanted to ask 'why the closed mind FOR solar?' when I detected the
original title about Germany going for it. Still a closed mind to assign
the rest to coal (fossil). All that with Liz's example of NZ (hydro). No
Windfarms? no Geotherm?
In our capitalistic ways profit is the biggest driving force. No gov't
bribe can override it.
Today the fossils are supported (polluting allowances, tax-structures,
mining support, help for distribution grids, etc. and no definite adequate
treatise for the cost of solar.
(Especially on a 7/24 basis).
One side-remark: I failed to realize in descriptions of hybrid-vehicles the
amount of OIL etc. necessary to produce the electricity for battery
recharging plotted against the saving in gasoline-based fuel...Could we
'read' beyond our nose?
JM




On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Chris, if this is all true and available today, or very, soon, Japan,
 which experienced the core meltdown at Fukushima, has not pursued a crash
 program of PV farms.?all over to replace nuclear. I read energy stuff all
 the time, as you must, and have seen a PV farm at sea, proposal. But I
 don't see this as more than the normal RD. I hope you are correct. There's
 a radiation leak, in the American Southwest, at the plutonium waste storage
 facility.


 -Original Message-
 From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 3:39 pm
 Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany



   --
  *From:* spudboy...@aol.com spudboy...@aol.com
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Sent:* Thursday, February 27, 2014 10:01 AM
 *Subject:* Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

  Can you do the same with London in the UK?
 Yes

  Can you produce 4 times more than it consumes Tokyo?
 Yes

  Can you do this at night, and can you do this during times of rain and
 snowstorms?
 Electric energy can be stored. Utility scale electric energy storage is
 advancing very rapidly. So, yes.


  The article wasn't clear. A coal plant or a uranium plant can do quite a
 bit of this also, and transmit the excess electricity to other towns and
 cities, on a 7 x 24 basis. If, for any reason, we cannot do this with
 solar, then..? Also, what is the cost per kilowatt. I have heard that solar
 has made great progress in the last several years with with efficiency and
 cost-price.

  The cost per kilowatt -- for complete installed systems -- is starting
 to get close to parity with the cost for electricity from coal. In ten
 years from now solar will be far less expensive than coal electricity.


  -Original Message-
 From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 4:07 am
 Subject: RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

   It produces 4X the energy it needs just from the solar PV on the roofs
 of its buildings Isn't it amazing what you can accomplish with such
 dilute sources of energy. I include the link because the pictures are
 pretty cool, and illustrate what a solar city could look like.


 http://inhabitat.com/sonnenschiff-solar-city-produces-4x-the-energy-it-needs/

 What can I say - I have an architecture kick, especially when it is
 sustainable and low footprint.
 Chris
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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 2 March 2014 08:50, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Spudboy and Liz:
 I wanted to ask 'why the closed mind FOR solar?'


If you know of a greater source of energy in our neighbourhood, let me know.


 Still a closed mind to assign the rest to coal (fossil). All that with
 Liz's example of NZ (hydro). No Windfarms? no Geotherm?


NZ also uses wind and geothermal energy but it isn't a large pecentage so I
didn't think it would cut much ice (so to speak) with spudboy.

I'm in favour of all forms of renewable energy, and in favour of
non-renewables that don't cause massive environmental damage like bumping
up atmospheric CO2 by 50% (e.g. nuclear is fine if it doesn't cause
problems like Fukushima - there are far safer reactor designs around than
the majority of those currently deployed, I'm told)


 In our capitalistic ways profit is the biggest driving force. No gov't
 bribe can override it.


Hm. So the UK nuclear industry wasn't driven by govt bribes?


 Today the fossils are supported (polluting allowances, tax-structures,
 mining support, help for distribution grids, etc. and no definite


More govt bribes???


 adequate treatise for the cost of solar.
 (Especially on a 7/24 basis).


My idea is to use solar where possible, as well as all the other
sustainable sources, and fossils / nuclear where they are needed to take up
the slack. Which is what is already happening, though not enough as yet to
help our children avoid the effects of our splurging of the Earth's
resources.


 One side-remark: I failed to realize in descriptions of hybrid-vehicles
 the amount of OIL etc. necessary to produce the electricity for battery
 recharging plotted against the saving in gasoline-based fuel...Could we
 'read' beyond our nose?

 This is why I'd like to see more research into extracting CO2 from the air
and preferably turning it back into petrol. As is apparently being looked
into.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany


John, because those in power say that Global Warming is imminent, and the 
solution is to switch to wind and solar, and shut off the dirty electrical 
sources. The problem is these sources cannot yet do it. But the progressives 
demand this anyway. It should not rationally matter what energy source we use, 
as long as it works, but we now have ideology in play.


-Original Message-
From: John Mikes jami...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Mar 1, 2014 2:51 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany


Spudboy and Liz:
I wanted to ask 'why the closed mind FOR solar?' when I detected the original 
title about Germany going for it. Still a closed mind to assign the rest to 
coal (fossil). All that with Liz's example of NZ (hydro). No Windfarms? no 
Geotherm? 
In our capitalistic ways profit is the biggest driving force. No gov't bribe 
can override it. 
Today the fossils are supported (polluting allowances, tax-structures, mining 
support, help for distribution grids, etc. and no definite adequate treatise 
for the cost of solar. 
(Especially on a 7/24 basis). 
One side-remark: I failed to realize in descriptions of hybrid-vehicles the 
amount of OIL etc. necessary to produce the electricity for battery recharging 
plotted against the saving in gasoline-based fuel...Could we 'read' beyond our 
nose?
JM








On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM,  spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Chris, if this is all true and available today, or very, soon, Japan, which 
experienced the core meltdown at Fukushima, has not pursued a crash program of 
PV farms.?all over to replace nuclear. I read energy stuff all the time, as you 
must, and have seen a PV farm at sea, proposal. But I don't see this as more 
than the normal RD. I hope you are correct. There's a radiation leak, in the 
American Southwest, at the plutonium waste storage facility. 



-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com


Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany







  
 
 
 
   From: spudboy...@aol.com spudboy...@aol.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 10:01 AM
 Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany
  
 


Can you do the same with London in the UK? 
Yes


Can you produce 4 times more than it consumes Tokyo? 
Yes


Can you do this at night, and can you do this during times of rain and 
snowstorms? 
Electric energy can be stored. Utility scale electric energy storage is 
advancing very rapidly. So, yes.




The article wasn't clear. A coal plant or a uranium plant can do quite a bit of 
this also, and transmit the excess electricity to other towns and cities, on a 
7 x 24 basis. If, for any reason, we cannot do this with solar, then..? Also, 
what is the cost per kilowatt. I have heard that solar has made great progress 
in the last several years with with efficiency and cost-price. 


The cost per kilowatt -- for complete installed systems -- is starting to get 
close to parity with the cost for electricity from coal. In ten years from now 
solar will be far less expensive than coal electricity.



-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 4:07 am
Subject: RE: The solar example of a town in Germany



It produces 4X the energy it needs just from the solar PV on the roofs of its 
buildings…. Isn’t it amazing what you can accomplish with such dilute sources 
of energy. I include the link because the pictures are pretty cool, and 
illustrate what a solar city could look like.
 
http://inhabitat.com/sonnenschiff-solar-city-produces-4x-the-energy-it-needs/
 
What can I say – I have an architecture kick, especially when it is sustainable 
and low footprint. 
Chris


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to

Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 2 March 2014 12:26, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 John, because those in power say that Global Warming is imminent, and the
 solution is to switch to wind and solar, and shut off the dirty electrical
 sources. The problem is these sources cannot yet do it. But the
 progressives demand this anyway. It should not rationally matter what
 energy source we use, as long as it works, but we now have ideology in play.


I haven't come across this myself. It sounds like a straw man . I think
most progressives would like to see ANY movement towards renewable,
non-polluting energy generation. I certainly would.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

You  need to power all civilization, once the leaders shut down all the dirty 
power. What can we replace it with. What do we have we have ready to go. The 
leaders all global Warming, so what can we do? They say its imminent. 

-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 28, 2014 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 1 March 2014 04:59,  spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

It does. You cannot fake electricity. You cannot fake electric current. If you 
are depending on solar power for 20% of your electricity supply, and the rest 
for coal, because coal is reliable on a 7 x 24 basis, you can only rely on 
solar for a slim fraction of electricity. You haven't solved the problem in a 
technical manner, all one is doing is employing solar for a fraction of total 
electricity consumption, to make ones self feel better. This is not 
engineering, it is ideology- a faith movement to make one feel better, 
without providing clean power to power one's civilization. How long must we 
wait for miracle power sources, if the shadow of Climate Change is overwhelming 
us all? It is politics and not health, and not engineering that is driving this 
issue, right?

I don't see what you're saying here. Indeed, you appear to be contradicting 
yourself. If solar provides 20% of your power, it provides 20% of your power. 
There is nothing faith based about that, assuming it's a fact (e.g. about 70% 
of New Zealand's power is provided by hydro, on average - that's not faith, or 
a miracle, or a conspiracy, it's just a fact).

If solar can provide X% of your power, on average, then that means only 100-X% 
has to rely on fossil fuels. Hence you can reduce your fossil fuel usage by 
that amount, and provide that much more of a distance between civilisation and 
any future effects of pollution, climate change, and resource depletion.

Sorry, what don't you understand here?

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany


On 3/1/2014 3:31 PM, LizR wrote:

On 2 March 2014 12:26, spudboy...@aol.com mailto:spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

John, because those in power say that Global Warming is imminent, and the 
solution
is to switch to wind and solar, and shut off the dirty electrical sources. 
The
problem is these sources cannot yet do it. But the progressives demand this 
anyway.
It should not rationally matter what energy source we use, as long as it 
works, but
we now have ideology in play.



But it does matter.  Fossil fuel works to supply energy, but it entails other losses.  So 
it does rationally matter.  When you say other sources cannot yet do it you are invoking 
your politically motivated all-or-nothing standard of doing it.  You're the on who is 
bringing your anti-government ideology to the problem. Government provides lots of 
benefits to the fossil fuel like propping up the Saudi ruling family and some other 
despotic leaders who will guarantee access to oil.  And that's just realpoltik.  But in 
deciding where to spend the taxpayers money the Government has an obligation to consider 
all the costs, not just those on Exxon-Mobil accounting sheets.


Brent



I haven't come across this myself. It sounds like a straw man . I think most 
progressives would like to see ANY movement towards renewable, non-polluting energy 
generation. I certainly would.

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 

 

John, because those in power say that Global Warming is imminent, and the 
solution is to switch to wind and solar, and shut off the dirty electrical 
sources. The problem is these sources cannot yet do it. But the progressives 
demand this anyway. It should not rationally matter what energy source we use, 
as long as it works, but we now have ideology in play.

 

News flash – global warming IS imminent – it does not matter whether you 
believe so or not, blinded by your ideology. The data speaks for itself.

 

-Original Message-
From: John Mikes jami...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Mar 1, 2014 2:51 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

Spudboy and Liz: 

I wanted to ask 'why the closed mind FOR solar?' when I detected the original 
title about Germany going for it. Still a closed mind to assign the rest to 
coal (fossil). All that with Liz's example of NZ (hydro). No Windfarms? no 
Geotherm? 

In our capitalistic ways profit is the biggest driving force. No gov't bribe 
can override it. 

Today the fossils are supported (polluting allowances, tax-structures, mining 
support, help for distribution grids, etc. and no definite adequate treatise 
for the cost of solar. 

(Especially on a 7/24 basis). 

One side-remark: I failed to realize in descriptions of hybrid-vehicles the 
amount of OIL etc. necessary to produce the electricity for battery recharging 
plotted against the saving in gasoline-based fuel...Could we 'read' beyond our 
nose?

JM

 

 

 

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Chris, if this is all true and available today, or very, soon, Japan, which 
experienced the core meltdown at Fukushima, has not pursued a crash program of 
PV farms.?all over to replace nuclear. I read energy stuff all the time, as you 
must, and have seen a PV farm at sea, proposal. But I don't see this as more 
than the normal RD. I hope you are correct. There's a radiation leak, in the 
American Southwest, at the plutonium waste storage facility. 



-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

 

 

  _  

From: spudboy...@aol.com spudboy...@aol.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

 

Can you do the same with London in the UK? 

Yes

 

Can you produce 4 times more than it consumes Tokyo? 

Yes

 

Can you do this at night, and can you do this during times of rain and 
snowstorms? 

Electric energy can be stored. Utility scale electric energy storage is 
advancing very rapidly. So, yes.

 

 

The article wasn't clear. A coal plant or a uranium plant can do quite a bit of 
this also, and transmit the excess electricity to other towns and cities, on a 
7 x 24 basis. If, for any reason, we cannot do this with solar, then..? Also, 
what is the cost per kilowatt. I have heard that solar has made great progress 
in the last several years with with efficiency and cost-price. 

 

The cost per kilowatt -- for complete installed systems -- is starting to get 
close to parity with the cost for electricity from coal. In ten years from now 
solar will be far less expensive than coal electricity.



-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 4:07 am
Subject: RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

It produces 4X the energy it needs just from the solar PV on the roofs of its 
buildings…. Isn’t it amazing what you can accomplish with such dilute sources 
of energy. I include the link because the pictures are pretty cool, and 
illustrate what a solar city could look like.

 

http://inhabitat.com/sonnenschiff-solar-city-produces-4x-the-energy-it-needs/

 

What can I say – I have an architecture kick, especially when it is sustainable 
and low footprint. 

Chris

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:38 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

You  need to power all civilization, once the leaders shut down all the
dirty power. What can we replace it with. What do we have we have ready to
go. The leaders all global Warming, so what can we do? They say its
imminent. 

Who are these leaders you seem so worked up about? Is it the secret
illuminati council of thirteen. who are these sinister leaders who believe
global warming is imminent?

Do you realize how off the wall you sound?

-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 28, 2014 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 1 March 2014 04:59, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

It does. You cannot fake electricity. You cannot fake electric current. If
you are depending on solar power for 20% of your electricity supply, and the
rest for coal, because coal is reliable on a 7 x 24 basis, you can only rely
on solar for a slim fraction of electricity. You haven't solved the problem
in a technical manner, all one is doing is employing solar for a fraction of
total electricity consumption, to make ones self feel better. This is not
engineering, it is ideology- a faith movement to make one feel better,
without providing clean power to power one's civilization. How long must we
wait for miracle power sources, if the shadow of Climate Change is
overwhelming us all? It is politics and not health, and not engineering that
is driving this issue, right?

I don't see what you're saying here. Indeed, you appear to be contradicting
yourself. If solar provides 20% of your power, it provides 20% of your
power. There is nothing faith based about that, assuming it's a fact (e.g.
about 70% of New Zealand's power is provided by hydro, on average - that's
not faith, or a miracle, or a conspiracy, it's just a fact).

If solar can provide X% of your power, on average, then that means only
100-X% has to rely on fossil fuels. Hence you can reduce your fossil fuel
usage by that amount, and provide that much more of a distance between
civilisation and any future effects of pollution, climate change, and
resource depletion.

Sorry, what don't you understand here?

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 10:30 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 4:07 AM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com 
wrote:

 It produces 4X the energy it needs just from the solar PV on the roofs of its 
 buildings…. Isn’t it amazing what you can accomplish with such dilute sources 
 of energy. I include the link because the pictures are pretty cool, and 
 illustrate what a solar city could look like. 

http://inhabitat.com/sonnenschiff-solar-city-produces-4x-the-energy-it-needs/

 What can I say 

What I can say is that governments can get people to build anything no matter 
how ridiculous if the bribe to do so is big enough. Germany has the highest 
electricity prices in Europe, partially because they're shutting down their 
nuclear plants but mostly because 50% of the average consumer's electric bill 
goes into subsidizing solar energy.  So far the German consumer has been forced 
to subsidize the solar cell industry to the tune of 100 billion euros (128 
billion dollars). So what did they get out of those 128 billions dollars worth 
of solar cells? They reduced the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere enough that by 
the end of this century they will have delayed global warming by about 23 
hours.  

Clearly you have it in for feed-in tariffs; I dislike the fact that we 
Americans subsidize wars for oil. I don’t know where you are getting your 
figures; according to the Wiki on German feed-in tariffs 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_tariffs_in_Germany  the figure is: 
€0.0056 per kWh (3% of household electricity costs) – which is it 3% or 50%; 
Wikipedia or John Clark?

Again from the same wiki entry the [2012] total level of subsidy for all 
subsidized sources, including wind, solar, geothermal, biowaste fermentation, 
hydro, etc. was €2.4 billion. How do you get this $250 billion dollar figure 
for solar PV. The entire feed-in tariff subsidy for ALL sources in 2012 is less 
than 1% of the figure you quote; which indicates that there may be some 
problems with the figure you are using.

The clean renewable power offset achieved by this feed-in tariff program is 
estimated to have resulted in 87 million fewer tons of carbon dioxide by 2012; 
the difference of burning 40 million tons of coal. Your derision does not 
lessen this achievement.

Chris

Even the Germans are starting to get fed up with this nonsense and say they 
will pull the plug on solar subsidies by 2018. If so then, unless there are 
major technological breakthroughs, you can expect the solar industry to crash 
in 2018.   

By 2018 the global per unit price for solar PV will have fallen by a factor of 
4 – it will have become the low cost leader for electric power generation; yet 
John Clark is confident it will collapse. You are free of course to be 
confident on whatever you choose to be confident in, but in order to be 
convincing you need to more than announce your confidence.

Over the past 35 years of trend lines, On average, solar power improves 14% per 
year in terms of energy production per dollar invested. In 2013 solar PV unit 
cost was on  average around $0.74 per Watt of capacity. By 2018 using this long 
established cost trendline for solar PV it is possible to project that it will 
likely fall to somewhere around $0.37 per Watt of capacity by 2018.

You expect the global solar PV sector to collapse in 2018 when it will be able 
to sell its product for $0.37 / Watt of capacity or $370 per kilowatt. An 
energy source that just requires a south facing insolated surface to be mounted 
on – inside a module unit; an energy source that does not require the on-going 
purchase of increasingly expensive fossil fuel. Is this the reason you are 
confident that it will die? That it will be bar none the low cost electric 
energy source; that it will require no fuel and will not emit (beyond the 
embedded carbon footprint in its manufacturing  distribution chain) CO2; that 
it will help lighten the load on national grids, which across the world operate 
on the margin of collapse.

John you seem like a smart guy, but on this subject you are not thinking 
clearly – IMO.

Chris

  John K Clark

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 2 March 2014 14:01, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:



 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *spudboy...@aol.com
 *Sent:* Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:38 PM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com

 *Subject:* Re: The solar example of a town in Germany



 You  need to power all civilization, once the leaders shut down all the
 dirty power. What can we replace it with. What do we have we have ready to
 go. The leaders all global Warming, so what can we do? They say its
 imminent.



 Who are these leaders you seem so worked up about? Is it the secret
 illuminati council of thirteen... who are these sinister leaders who
 believe global warming is imminent?


The Elders of Zion?

By the way, here is some scientific evidence, in case you're interested.

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

[image: Inline images 1]

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 6:14 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 2 March 2014 14:01, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:38 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

You  need to power all civilization, once the leaders shut down all the
dirty power. What can we replace it with. What do we have we have ready to
go. The leaders all global Warming, so what can we do? They say its
imminent. 

Who are these leaders you seem so worked up about? Is it the secret
illuminati council of thirteen. who are these sinister leaders who believe
global warming is imminent?

The Elders of Zion?

Lol.. Quite possibly.

By the way, here is some scientific evidence, in case you're interested.

Unfortunately, when has something like scientific evidence ever stood in the
way of an ideologues opinion?

Chris

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

 Inline images 1
http://climate.nasa.gov/system/content_pages/main_images/Temp_anomaly.jpg 

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany



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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany



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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany



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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany



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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 2 March 2014 16:05, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Yes Liz, I take the threat seriously, but am puzzled by the behavior of
 politicians, in anticipation of the historic calamity. The actions, even by
 true believers in AGW, does not compute. Secondly, why is North American,
 and European CO2, threaten the globe, but Chinese CO2 does not? This is a
 bit of a discrepancy. Lastly, I read mea culpa to the Eldars of Zion
 accusation as I their local leader, thus, I must recuse myself from this
 particularaccusation. Pax Vobiscum.


Personally, I was under the impression that China's emissions were
currently the biggest threat to the environment. The only reason to make
more of a fuss about the UK or EU would be because that's something in our
power to change (well, yours at least - I'm not sure NZ gets much say).

Politicians' behaviour is easily explained if one looks as the history of
the fall of previous civilisations. The ruling classes have always tried to
pretend that everything is fine, and have even thrown huge parties to prove
that there isn't a famine (or whatever the looming threat is).

The Elders of Zion were just the logical follow up to the Illuminati.
Obviously neither of these groups is who is REALLY running the world, as
David Icke will tell you...

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-01 Thread ghibbsa


On Sunday, March 2, 2014 3:36:24 AM UTC, Liz R wrote:

 On 2 March 2014 16:05, spudb...@aol.com javascript: wrote:

 Yes Liz, I take the threat seriously, but am puzzled by the behavior of 
 politicians, in anticipation of the historic calamity. The actions, even by 
 true believers in AGW, does not compute. Secondly, why is North American, 
 and European CO2, threaten the globe, but Chinese CO2 does not? This is a 
 bit of a discrepancy. Lastly, I read mea culpa to the Eldars of Zion 
 accusation as I their local leader, thus, I must recuse myself from this 
 particularaccusation. Pax Vobiscum.


 Personally, I was under the impression that China's emissions were 
 currently the biggest threat to the environment. The only reason to make 
 more of a fuss about the UK or EU would be because that's something in our 
 power to change (well, yours at least - I'm not sure NZ gets much say).

 Politicians' behaviour is easily explained if one looks as the history of 
 the fall of previous civilisations. The ruling classes have always tried to 
 pretend that everything is fine, and have even thrown huge parties to prove 
 that there isn't a famine (or whatever the looming threat is).

 The Elders of Zion were just the logical follow up to the Illuminati. 
 Obviously neither of these groups is who is REALLY running the world, as 
 David Icke will tell you...

 
The thing about Power, especially used abusively, is that we dare not even 
speak its name.  

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 

 

Should I correct my statements to make them ideologically acceptable to
progressive minds, everywhere? Will I get a cookie if I do? 

No, you won't get a cookie, but not making an ass of yourself is its own
reward.

Question: How much a percentage of the U.S. gross annual income, should
the U.S. tithe to the United Nations, as they see fit? It's an idea that's
being circulated around by your pal GS, for a number of years. 

Are random angry man quotes a regular part of your style? Where in left
field did this come from? How much of your mind do you waste on this kind of
anger?

Do we have enough time to replace the dirty power sources with solar, and
will solar work well enough to produce the wattage necessary, or do you feel
we should drastically cut back on consumption of electricity, to save the
Earth?

If we do not have enough time society will collapse; it has before. It Is
not a matter of what you feel or what I feel; both you and I happen to live
on a rock orbiting a star. The rock we live on has limits. It is the limits
of our physical reality that are going to dictate to us - whether we like it
or not; whether we agree or disagree. regardless. the reality of
physical limits is already kicking in right now. For example if you follow
the capital expenditure  (Capex) trends of the fossil fuel extraction
sectors, as I do and have been doing for years you will notice two trends.
Trend one the amount of fossil energy extracted per unit of capital is
rapidly decreasing; the oil  gas  coal sectors are sucking down larger and
larger portions of the total global Capex. and recently it looks like the
oil sector is slowing expenditures. 

If you want to disbelieve in the reality of physical limits on our small
blue green dot then there is not much I can do to help you.

Chris

-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: 01-Mar-2014 20:01:11 +
Subject: RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:38 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

 

You  need to power all civilization, once the leaders shut down all the
dirty power. What can we replace it with. What do we have we have ready to
go. The leaders all global Warming, so what can we do? They say its
imminent. 

 

Who are these leaders you seem so worked up about? Is it the secret
illuminati council of thirteen. who are these sinister leaders who believe
global warming is imminent?

Do you realize how off the wall you sound?

 

 

-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 28, 2014 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 1 March 2014 04:59, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

It does. You cannot fake electricity. You cannot fake electric current. If
you are depending on solar power for 20% of your electricity supply, and the
rest for coal, because coal is reliable on a 7 x 24 basis, you can only rely
on solar for a slim fraction of electricity. You haven't solved the problem
in a technical manner, all one is doing is employing solar for a fraction of
total electricity consumption, to make ones self feel better. This is not
engineering, it is ideology- a faith movement to make one feel better,
without providing clean power to power one's civilization. How long must we
wait for miracle power sources, if the shadow of Climate Change is
overwhelming us all? It is politics and not health, and not engineering that
is driving this issue, right?

 

I don't see what you're saying here. Indeed, you appear to be contradicting
yourself. If solar provides 20% of your power, it provides 20% of your
power. There is nothing faith based about that, assuming it's a fact (e.g.
about 70% of New Zealand's power is provided by hydro, on average - that's
not faith, or a miracle, or a conspiracy, it's just a fact).

 

If solar can provide X% of your power, on average, then that means only
100-X% has to rely on fossil fuels. Hence you can reduce your fossil fuel
usage by that amount, and provide that much more of a distance between
civilisation and any future effects of pollution, climate change, and
resource depletion.

 

Sorry, what don't you understand here?

 

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

2014-03-01 Thread ghibbsa


On Sunday, March 2, 2014 3:05:55 AM UTC, spudb...@aol.com wrote:

 Yes Liz, I take the threat seriously, but am puzzled by the behavior of 
 politicians, in anticipation of the historic calamity. The actions, even by 
 true believers in AGW, does not compute. Secondly, why is North American, 
 and European CO2, threaten the globe, but Chinese CO2 does not? This is a 
 bit of a discrepancy. Lastly, I read mea culpa to the Eldars of Zion 
 accusation as I their local leader, thus, I must recuse myself from this 
 particularaccusation. Pax Vobiscum.

 
you don't seem to take it that seriously. But is this about climate science 
only? I only ask because there's this nefarious but very effective lobby 
outfit that traces its roots back into the days of tobacco harm denial. 
They use very reliable psychological devices to create that sense of doubt. 
They really played hardball toobeing willing to totally trash the 
reputation of science it secured their goals. Destroy individuals. Drive 
them to nervous breakdowns. Harass media outlets.,  
 
That's nothing of it either. What they did was create these networks of 
think tanks, lobbies, libertarian fronts, that all basically referenced and 
agreed and which were all basically run by the same people. That work on 
people, in the masses, very effectively because over time hearing the same 
ideas fropm different directions, fires up our final background conceptual 
framework. This is the one that evolution puts beyond our conscious reach. 
We can access, and even shape it, but only indirectly by creating recurrent 
commitments or rituals - or exercize. Also things like incantations  - 
repeating with emphasis - will begin to access that framework. 
 
It's a really important framework, this is where it gets decided what 
background reality is., What social respectability is. What is illegitimate 
and what is legitimate. 
 
 
It can be, and is, and has been, shaped, that background framework of ours, 
most of us anyway, , by this malicious sort of activist strategy
 
I think the reason we respond this way, is either  because it kind of makes 
sense an individual needs to be in a process of deciding what is  intrinsic 
to reality that we need not consciousluy register it
 
I mean look, just for the reality of scum like that screwing everyone over, 
there chances of a rational society wide decision making process. I mean 
what a way to say you don't care about anything. Just them being there 
makes me get behind the climate science and the scientists. Double other 
sciences
-Original Message-
From: LizR liz...@gmail.com javascript:
To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:
Sent: 01-Mar-2014 21:13:39 +
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

 On 2 March 2014 14:01, Chris de Morsella cdemo...@yahoo.com 
javascript:wrote:

  

 *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:
 everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of 
 *spudb...@aol.comjavascript:
 *Sent:* Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:38 PM
 *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:

 *Subject:* Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

  

 You  need to power all civilization, once the leaders shut down all the 
 dirty power. What can we replace it with. What do we have we have ready to 
 go. The leaders all global Warming, so what can we do? They say its 
 imminent. 

  

 Who are these “leaders” you seem so worked up about? Is it the secret 
 illuminati council of thirteen… who are these sinister “leaders” who 
 believe global warming is imminent?


 The Elders of Zion?

 By the way, here is some scientific evidence, in case you're interested.

 http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus
  
 [image: Inline images 1]

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 .
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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 2 March 2014 18:19, ghib...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Sunday, March 2, 2014 3:05:55 AM UTC, spudb...@aol.com wrote:

 Yes Liz, I take the threat seriously, but am puzzled by the behavior of
 politicians, in anticipation of the historic calamity. The actions, even by
 true believers in AGW, does not compute. Secondly, why is North American,
 and European CO2, threaten the globe, but Chinese CO2 does not? This is a
 bit of a discrepancy. Lastly, I read mea culpa to the Eldars of Zion
 accusation as I their local leader, thus, I must recuse myself from this
 particularaccusation. Pax Vobiscum.


 you don't seem to take it that seriously. But is this about climate
 science only? I only ask because there's this nefarious but very effective
 lobby outfit that traces its roots back into the days of tobacco harm
 denial. They use very reliable psychological devices to create that sense
 of doubt. They really played hardball toobeing willing to totally trash
 the reputation of science it secured their goals. Destroy individuals.
 Drive them to nervous breakdowns. Harass media outlets.,


This is kind of a touchstone for these disinformation based organisations.
They created institutes specifically to push some agenda. We've had
tobacco, big oil, and of course the anti-evolution lot, all with their own
think tanks and institutes. Personally I reckon they got the idea from
L Ron Hubbard, who once got into a conversation with fellow science fiction
writers - I forget who, say James Blish and John W Campbell Jr, for the
sake of argument - and they all proposed crazy ideas about how one could
create a science based religion. We could have little devices that let
people measure their state of spiritual health! they chortled, imagining
this was just one of those games SF writers love to indulge in - little
realising that Hubbard was making mental notes of everything they said.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3/1/2014 10:12 PM, LizR wrote:

On 2 March 2014 18:19, ghib...@gmail.com mailto:ghib...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, March 2, 2014 3:05:55 AM UTC, spudb...@aol.com
mailto:spudb...@aol.com
wrote:

Yes Liz, I take the threat seriously, but am puzzled by the behavior of
politicians, in anticipation of the historic calamity. The actions,
even by true
believers in AGW, does not compute. Secondly, why is North American, and
European CO2, threaten the globe, but Chinese CO2 does not? This is a
bit of a
discrepancy. Lastly, I read mea culpa to the Eldars of Zion accusation
as I
their local leader, thus, I must recuse myself from this
particularaccusation.
Pax Vobiscum.

you don't seem to take it that seriously. But is this about climate science
only? I
only ask because there's this nefarious but very effective lobby outfit
that traces
its roots back into the days of tobacco harm denial. They use very reliable
psychological devices to create that sense of doubt. They really played
hardball
toobeing willing to totally trash the reputation of science it secured
their
goals. Destroy individuals. Drive them to nervous breakdowns. Harass media
outlets.,

This is kind of a touchstone for these disinformation based organisations. They created
institutes specifically to push some agenda. We've had tobacco, big oil, and of course
the anti-evolution lot, all with their own think tanks and institutes. Personally I
reckon they got the idea from L Ron Hubbard, who once got into a conversation with
fellow science fiction writers

Robert Heinlein, with whom he shared a house for a while, made a bar bet with him that he
couldn't create a religion after Hubbard had remarked that was the way to get *really* rich.

Brent

- I forget who, say James Blish and John W Campbell Jr, for the sake of argument - and
they all proposed crazy ideas about how one could create a science based religion. We
could have little devices that let people measure their state of spiritual health! they
chortled, imagining this was just one of those games SF writers love to indulge in -
little realising that Hubbard was making mental notes of everything they said.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 2 March 2014 19:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


 Robert Heinlein, with whom he shared a house for a while, made a bar bet
 with him that he couldn't create a religion after Hubbard had remarked that
 was the way to get *really* rich.

 Ah, thank you, I have to rely on 30 year old memories of what I was told
by various SF writers, often when we were all rather drunk.

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

Speaking of which, Heinlein would have loved this:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140302.html



On 2 March 2014 19:45, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 2 March 2014 19:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


 Robert Heinlein, with whom he shared a house for a while, made a bar bet
 with him that he couldn't create a religion after Hubbard had remarked that
 was the way to get *really* rich.

 Ah, thank you, I have to rely on 30 year old memories of what I was told
 by various SF writers, often when we were all rather drunk.



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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR

 

Speaking of which, Heinlein would have loved this:

 

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140302.html

 

I grok that

One of the best words ever invented* - IMO -thank you Heinlein.

Chris

 

*from Stranger in a Strange Land

 

On 2 March 2014 19:45, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

On 2 March 2014 19:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:



Robert Heinlein, with whom he shared a house for a while, made a bar bet
with him that he couldn't create a religion after Hubbard had remarked that
was the way to get *really* rich.

 

Ah, thank you, I have to rely on 30 year old memories of what I was told by
various SF writers, often when we were all rather drunk.

 

 

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

I have a friend who's daughter was leaving home in California to attend a university on 
the east coast.  On her last day, she and her daughter took a walk on the beach to talk 
and enjoy the sunset together.  It was a beautiful display of reds and yellows.


Daughter: I'm going to miss this.
Mother: Well you can go to the beach there too.
Daughter: No, I mean the sunsets.
Mother: Why can't you enjoy sunsets back east?
Daughter: The sun sets in the west.

She thought about canceling her college.

Brent

On 3/1/2014 10:47 PM, LizR wrote:

Speaking of which, Heinlein would have loved this:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140302.html



On 2 March 2014 19:45, LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com 
wrote:

On 2 March 2014 19:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net
wrote:


Robert Heinlein, with whom he shared a house for a while, made a bar 
bet with
him that he couldn't create a religion after Hubbard had remarked that 
was the
way to get *really* rich.

Ah, thank you, I have to rely on 30 year old memories of what I was told by 
various
SF writers, often when we were all rather drunk.


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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany


On 3/1/2014 10:59 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:


*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On 
Behalf Of *LizR


Speaking of which, Heinlein would have loved this:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140302.html

I grok that

One of the best words ever invented* -- IMO --thank you Heinlein.



I think it was suggested by the poems of Piet Hein.

*Piet Hein* (16 December 1905 -- 17 April 1996) was a Danish 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_people scientist, mathematician, inventor, designer, 
author, and poet, often writing under the Old Norse pseudonym *Kumbel* meaning 
tombstone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_stone. His short poems, known as /gruks 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grook/ or grooks (Danish: /gruk/), first started to appear 
in the daily newspaper /Politiken http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politiken/ shortly 
after the Nazi occupation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Denmark in April 
1940 under the pseudonym *Kumbel Kumbell*.^[1] 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Hein_%28scientist%29#cite_note-1


^The poems contained anti-nazi meanings which could only be grasped intuitively 
by the Danish.

^Brent


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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 2 March 2014 20:02, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  I have a friend who's daughter was leaving home in California to attend
 a university on the east coast.  On her last day, she and her daughter took
 a walk on the beach to talk and enjoy the sunset together.  It was a
 beautiful display of reds and yellows.

 Daughter: I'm going to miss this.
 Mother: Well you can go to the beach there too.
 Daughter: No, I mean the sunsets.
 Mother: Why can't you enjoy sunsets back east?
 Daughter: The sun sets in the west.

 She thought about canceling her college.


To some extent, just how bad this is depends on what she was studying. As
Sherlock Holmes fictionally observed, it made no difference to his
profession whether the Earth orbited the Sun or the Moon, and he tried not
to learn such irrelevant facts. (And the novel that won the Man Booker
prize recently was based on astrology, and the highest grossing movie
franchise to date was based on children who can do magic...)

...but despite all that, I agree. Maybe this young woman was going to study
something in which even a knowledge of elementary astronomy is unnecessary,
but I'm with C.P.Snow on this one, there are some basics that everyone
should know about (even people who don't aspire to study at university).

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RE: The solar example of a town in Germany

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 11:14 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The solar example of a town in Germany

On 3/1/2014 10:59 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR

Speaking of which, Heinlein would have loved this:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140302.html

I grok that

One of the best words ever invented* - IMO -thank you Heinlein.

I think it was suggested by the poems of Piet Hein.

Piet Hein (16 December 1905 - 17 April 1996) was a Danish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_people  scientist, mathematician,
inventor, designer, author, and poet, often writing under the Old Norse
pseudonym Kumbel meaning tombstone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_stone . His short poems, known as gruks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grook  or grooks (Danish: gruk), first
started to appear in the daily newspaper Politiken
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politiken  shortly after the Nazi occupation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Denmark  in April 1940 under
the pseudonym Kumbel Kumbell.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Hein_%28scientist%29#cite_note-1 

The poems contained anti-nazi meanings which could only be grasped
intuitively by the Danish.

Interesting; always thought it originated from that book. So then is grok
steganography?

Chris

Brent

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Re: The solar example of a town in Germany