Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
Wolfgang Bornath wrote: Just as an aside: Did you post a report to MandrakeBizCases? http://www.mandrakebizcases.com/modules.php?name=Submit_News They are always glad to hear such things and the numerous reports on the site serve well as argumentation help for people trying to persuade their boss to have a look at Mandrake Linux. wobo They are more interested in reports from the actual business owners, not their IT guy. I did let them know of my own uses of mandrake as web/file/dns servers etc some time ago. rgds Franki -- Please sign our petition to encourage notebook manufacturers to offer video card upgrades just like desktops. http://www.petitiononline.com/inspiron/petition.html For free scripts, online webmaster tools, HTML, XHTML, Perl PHP tutorials and stuff, visit: http://htmlfixit.com, Free web developer resources. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
Anyone interested in this mess should have a look at this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33823.html They're trying to increase revenues by preventing use of their desktop offering in the server room. They've chosen a method that cuts off the nose to spite the face, but I still think they'll continue to be quite successful in the Fortune 500 space for inertial reasons. Only thing is, when the Fortune 500 begins to seriously evaluate Linux desktops, they won't be running RH. The question is, once they bring in Mandrake or SuSE or Fedora for the desktops, what's going to stop them from bringing it into the server room too? RH is trying to build two truly separate distributions, a server and a desktop, with different source trees, different package revisions, different config tools... This is such an architecturally flawed move that it clearly came from marketing, especially because doing it in an open source environment is practically impossible. Every feature they remove can easily be replaced, every attempt to cripple Fedora for server use can be circumvented, and if it isn't easy to do then Fedora will simply get dropped like a hot rock. If the community drops it, RH's only chance to encourage it for desktop use is to play licensing and discount games, where enforceability gets difficult and customer/vendor relations get adversarial. Generally a bone-headed move all around -- worst case scenario is a hated albatross cousin to RH server, best case scenario is that they've spawned their own new competitor. On Sat, 2003-11-08 at 23:20, James Sparenberg wrote: Am I alone in noticing the insanity. As if SCO wasn't bad enough. Lycoris deciding that it can rewrite the GPL. Now the CEO of RedHat (or as I've heard of late DeadRat) is advocating that Home users stick with Windows as Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Maybe I should send the SOB a copy of 9.2 when it's ready to show him what RH could have been if they didn't suffer from NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39117575,00.htm James __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:20 am, James Sparenberg wrote: Am I alone in noticing the insanity. As if SCO wasn't bad enough. Lycoris deciding that it can rewrite the GPL. Now the CEO of RedHat (or as I've heard of late DeadRat) is advocating that Home users stick with Windows as Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Maybe I should send the SOB a copy of 9.2 when it's ready to show him what RH could have been if they didn't suffer from NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39117575,00.htm James Nah - you're not alone. I posted a message with a link to an announcement about this. The subject went something like Redhat = traitors?... grin -- /\ DarkLord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On September 1993 plus 3721 days James Sparenberg wrote: Lycoris deciding that it can rewrite the GPL. Uhm...for their own code, yes, they can...it won't be the GPL any more, but it's their own license. Depending on the changes, it may or may not still be Free Software and/or Open Source Software, but they *can* write any license they may want for *their own code*. On the other hand, I hadn't heard anything about this...could you point me to any URLs that talk about this? Vox -- Think of the Linux community as a niche economy isolated by its beliefs. Kind of like the Amish, except that our religion requires us to use _higher_ technology than everyone else. -- Donald B. Marti Jr. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Well, I gotta say that Redhat does have a point. I do think that linux is not yet ready for the everyday desktop user except for Lindows - for a relatively small subpopulation. I use it exclusively but then I have been playing with linux for years now. I get it. My father, wife, sisters...they don't get it. They get boggled by configuration this and that, logins, etc. They are all too used to just firing up and going with what is familiar. Then, the biggy, is games. If you play games then you are set to go through even more work with only a fractional hope that the game will work (working with wine is not straightup simple and obvious). The newest games rarely work, or work only poorly. Not a great way to make a favorable impression. Lindows is set to give linux a poor name as well, with their default run-as-root setup. Sure, it makes it install and run similar to windoze but it also makes it just as vulnerable as windoze. This can only make people think (ultimately) that linux is no more free viruses, worms, and hack attacks as windoze. I do think that for those who really just do web browsing, document editing, emailing, then linux is perfectly valid. For those who game it just isn't there and wont be until linux gets more game titles itself or wine/winex gets much better and easier to work with. On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:58 am, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:20 am, James Sparenberg wrote: Am I alone in noticing the insanity. As if SCO wasn't bad enough. Lycoris deciding that it can rewrite the GPL. Now the CEO of RedHat (or as I've heard of late DeadRat) is advocating that Home users stick with Windows as Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Maybe I should send the SOB a copy of 9.2 when it's ready to show him what RH could have been if they didn't suffer from NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39117575,00.htm James Nah - you're not alone. I posted a message with a link to an announcement about this. The subject went something like Redhat = traitors?... grin - -- Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. - --Krakauer -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/rk4Yb1CLurEA6xURAmsnAJ9LgwGW6BvaUmOZeapdXBGE4SS/4gCcDgja efM+7BPnCsPpFFqMr7rREWE= =BHUM -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:42 am, Jack Coates wrote: Anyone interested in this mess should have a look at this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33823.html They're trying to increase revenues by preventing use of their desktop offering in the server room. They've chosen a method that cuts off the nose to spite the face, but I still think they'll continue to be quite successful in the Fortune 500 space for inertial reasons. Only thing is, when the Fortune 500 begins to seriously evaluate Linux desktops, they won't be running RH. The question is, once they bring in Mandrake or SuSE or Fedora for the desktops, what's going to stop them from bringing it into the server room too? My take on this is that it is more of a branding issue. Desktops need much more cutting edge, in most cases, than do servers and certainly different types of supported hardware. RH appears to be attempting to fully differentiate its offerings, Fedora on the desktop with more cutting edge releases and by necessity, more buggy software, and the staid, old tried and true Redhat that goes into the server, has paid support and doesn't depend as much on the community. I don't necessarily think that any of this is a bad idea, at least from the perspective of creating an OS that is designed for a specific segment. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
Jack Coates wrote: worst case scenario is a hated albatross cousin to RH server, best case scenario is that they've spawned their own new competitor. http://www.caosity.org Bye -- - Yo también quiero una Europa libre de Patentes de Software - - I want a Software Patents Free Europe too! And you? - --- EuropeSwPatentFree - http://EuropeSwPatentFree.hispalinux.es pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 06:22, Bryan Phinney wrote: On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:42 am, Jack Coates wrote: Anyone interested in this mess should have a look at this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33823.html They're trying to increase revenues by preventing use of their desktop offering in the server room. They've chosen a method that cuts off the nose to spite the face, but I still think they'll continue to be quite successful in the Fortune 500 space for inertial reasons. Only thing is, when the Fortune 500 begins to seriously evaluate Linux desktops, they won't be running RH. The question is, once they bring in Mandrake or SuSE or Fedora for the desktops, what's going to stop them from bringing it into the server room too? My take on this is that it is more of a branding issue. Desktops need much more cutting edge, in most cases, than do servers and certainly different types of supported hardware. RH appears to be attempting to fully differentiate its offerings, Fedora on the desktop with more cutting edge releases and by necessity, more buggy software, and the staid, old tried and true Redhat that goes into the server, has paid support and doesn't depend as much on the community. I don't necessarily think that any of this is a bad idea, at least from the perspective of creating an OS that is designed for a specific segment. That's good strategy in the proprietary world, but the open source community around both distributions has to buy into the idea for it to work in this case. How long before scratch-an-itch leads to Fedora being a pretty good server platform? Any way, it's all non-Mandrake. On another list, the question has been bringing up all sorts of cross-distribution questions. So, how many people here are using Mandrake as a server vs as a desktop? The general impression seems to be that Mandrake is mainly a desktop OS, which is only used as a server in SOHO environments. -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I myself would not automatically say, Use linux instead! It's just as good as windoze with regards to desktop use. In many cases it IS as good, if not better, than doze. No viruses, more stable, etc, but it does come at a cost of increased complexity for the end user. They do need to know/understand more to successfully install and operate linux than they do with windoze. And gamers. Forget about it. I myself and happy to try to play games under winex but most of the time they do not work so if I want to play, I HAVE to reboot to doze. Could you honestly say that telling everyone to add even more complexity to their computer use and dual install linux on their windoze system and then go back and forth as a matter of course? I use linux 100% exclusive as my desktop system (except for most games). I am a militant anti-M$ guy though, so I learned linux. This isn't the case with most generic users. Then there are specialized desktop users. I am a scientist in biochemistry/molecular biology. I have taken the time to learn the ins and outs of linux use and am now able (thus far) to use it exclusively in my work. My colleagues are a different matter. They all use either windoze boxes or Macs. They absolutely REQUIRE a reference manager like EndNote. They use word or, rarely, wordperfect plus EndNote to produce their research papers for submission to journals. The closest thing in linux to an app that can do the same sort of thing is Lyx/LaTex and pybliographic or sixpack. I used Lyx + pybliograhic to write my dissertation and journal submissions. I took the not inconsiderable time to learn much of the intricacies of Lyx. My colleagues don't have time or patience for this. All this said, I really dislike using Lyx. It is painful and counterintuitive. I would LOVE to be able to do this in OpenOffice. I would LOVE for the document on the screen to appear as it does when I print it out (Lyx gives no indication of what the output will actually look like). The problem is that OpenOffice on linux is not able to deal with references/citations. It does have a builtin bibliography setup but it is rudimentary and extremely limited. In fairness, there is a plan to improve on the bibliography system to make it more powerful and configurable but it isn't due to start hitting the released versions until 1.2 at the earliest. EndNote on windoze does support OpenOffice (as of EndNote 7.0, I think) so on WINDOZE, you can use OpenOffice and produce well-referenced documents with the same ease as you can with Word or Wordperfect with EndNote. In this area, linux just lacks and cannot work as a dropin replacement for most users. Most users are not going to want to learn Lyx. I can use OpenOffice for presentations and drawing, but I cannot use it for writing. For that I have to use Lyx. I cannot play most games on linux but can on windoze. Such annoyances, plus the complexity of having to administer linux is just beyond what most generic users really want. It is getting there, and Mandrake is leading the way, but it really isn't fair to say that linux CAN replace windoze for most users as their primary (at home) desktop system. It isn't even really viable yet in certain academic/scientific circles. praedor On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:20 am, James Sparenberg wrote: Am I alone in noticing the insanity. As if SCO wasn't bad enough. Lycoris deciding that it can rewrite the GPL. Now the CEO of RedHat (or as I've heard of late DeadRat) is advocating that Home users stick with Windows as Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Maybe I should send the SOB a copy of 9.2 when it's ready to show him what RH could have been if they didn't suffer from NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39117575,00.htm James - -- Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. - --Krakauer -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/rlhbb1CLurEA6xURArWHAJ983b8giPqcZtYF5e6G+6EUeDT2yACeP/p+ AlixjWOrFdqnGm7mR5XQeAw= =cOQo -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
I'm not sure I'm in total agreement. The computing community is not made up of only two types of users: experts (many of whom use linux) and complete neophytes (who, for the sake of argument, use Windows). There is, in fact, a wide spectrum of folks - some of whom want an appliance, those who are interested in making the machine work better, those who like to tinker, all the way to the more hard-core 'hacker' (like many of us). So one size does not fit all and there's certainly plenty of well-functioning linux desktop systems that work well and are easy enough to deal with even for an inexperienced user. A user may need help in figuring out something/getting something new working but these lists (and info resources on the web such as twiki) can fill that need. A personal example..At home I have two machines that the family uses; both are dual boot and can load Windows; one runs Mandrake 9.1, the other Red Hat 9.0. My wife and children have had the choice of loading Windows or Linux for the last year and a half. They run linux 100% of the time. I believe my wife and older daughter truly don't care...they're just trying to get things done and they know that I'll keep the computers up-to-date and running. My younger daughter is a bit more of a hacker and has grown to dislike Windowsshe spends most of her time designing things with the gimp, reconfiguring the desktop, etc. Bottom line...in a typical family (albeit with a hobbyist hacker in the house) situation, they've chosen linux over windows and have no complaints or regrets (although they all still love the old Macintosh upstairs :-). Terry Smith Cape Cod USA On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 09:24, Praedor Atrebates wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Well, I gotta say that Redhat does have a point. I do think that linux is not yet ready for the everyday desktop user except for Lindows - for a relatively small subpopulation. I use it exclusively but then I have been playing with linux for years now. I get it. My father, wife, sisters...they don't get it. They get boggled by configuration this and that, logins, etc. They are all too used to just firing up and going with what is familiar. Then, the biggy, is games. If you play games then you are set to go through even more work with only a fractional hope that the game will work (working with wine is not straightup simple and obvious). The newest games rarely work, or work only poorly. Not a great way to make a favorable impression. Lindows is set to give linux a poor name as well, with their default run-as-root setup. Sure, it makes it install and run similar to windoze but it also makes it just as vulnerable as windoze. This can only make people think (ultimately) that linux is no more free viruses, worms, and hack attacks as windoze. I do think that for those who really just do web browsing, document editing, emailing, then linux is perfectly valid. For those who game it just isn't there and wont be until linux gets more game titles itself or wine/winex gets much better and easier to work with. On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:58 am, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:20 am, James Sparenberg wrote: Am I alone in noticing the insanity. As if SCO wasn't bad enough. Lycoris deciding that it can rewrite the GPL. Now the CEO of RedHat (or as I've heard of late DeadRat) is advocating that Home users stick with Windows as Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Maybe I should send the SOB a copy of 9.2 when it's ready to show him what RH could have been if they didn't suffer from NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39117575,00.htm James Nah - you're not alone. I posted a message with a link to an announcement about this. The subject went something like Redhat = traitors?... grin - -- Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. - --Krakauer -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/rk4Yb1CLurEA6xURAmsnAJ9LgwGW6BvaUmOZeapdXBGE4SS/4gCcDgja efM+7BPnCsPpFFqMr7rREWE= =BHUM -END PGP SIGNATURE- __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Terry Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sunday 09 November 2003 09:24 am, Praedor Atrebates wrote: Well, I gotta say that Redhat does have a point. I do think that linux is not yet ready for the everyday desktop user except for Lindows - for a relatively small subpopulation. Hmm, I disagree. My 10 and 12 year old (not to mention my wife) use Mandrake here with very few problems. Sure, my wife uses it almost exclusively for e-mail and web-browsing, but thats what the Windoze majority does anyways, right? and the boys use it mostly for games...again, following the norm. Most Windows users run to a local Windog guru when they have problems anyways, and thats what my crowd here does - run to me. So whats the diff? :-) -- /\ DarkLord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sunday 09 November 2003 09:54 am, Jack Coates wrote: That's good strategy in the proprietary world, but the open source community around both distributions has to buy into the idea for it to work in this case. Well, it is new but I think that once the community realizes that RH is continuing to support Open Source and continuing to make an investment in Fedora, they will come to accept the differentiation. If you look at it as a way to clearly separate the desktop product from the server product, it begins to be seen as mostly a marketing move. In some ways, this may also help them combat the FUD from MS. With less frequent software updates and longer testing periods before new releases of RH, they will show a more low-key track record of security vulnerabilities and patches than they might if they were more cutting edge like Fedora. For those of us who understand IT, we know that frequency of patches is not necessarily an indicator of low quality, in many cases, it can be an indicator of high quality as the number of testers and developers patch things before they even become known issues. However, MS appears to be ready to use desktop numbers to recommend against certain Linux distributions, so this may just be a way for RH to combat that type of activity. How long before scratch-an-itch leads to Fedora being a pretty good server platform? It may already be a pretty good server platform. I guess the main question then becomes, how many companies want to rely on a pretty good server platform for their enterprise production level systems that will cause them to actually lose money if they go down. Red Hat has never compared well in the desktop market because of their reputation as having less cutting edge packages, less consumer hardware support, etc. This whole thing may just be a case of RH wanting people to compare apples to apples. I have always liked Mandrake more than RedHat because it does have more cutting edge software that I liked, at the price of some bugs that I could either work around or figure out how to fix myself. However, I am not running an enterprise wide banking system on it either. If I were, I might consider the ramifications of frequent software updates, less dedicated testing, and more unknown quantities in the mix. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 11:02, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 09 November 2003 09:24 am, Praedor Atrebates wrote: Well, I gotta say that Redhat does have a point. I do think that linux is not yet ready for the everyday desktop user except for Lindows - for a relatively small subpopulation. Hmm, I disagree. My 10 and 12 year old (not to mention my wife) use Mandrake here with very few problems. Sure, my wife uses it almost exclusively for e-mail and web-browsing, but thats what the Windoze majority does anyways, right? and the boys use it mostly for games...again, following the norm. Most Windows users run to a local Windog guru when they have problems anyways, and thats what my crowd here does - run to me. So whats the diff? :-) I've noticed the exact same thing, DL. In fact a young person I know recently told me that he could install and run Mandrake without trouble, yet couldn't seem to get winblowz to operate as easily, and deferred to a local shop for assistance in getting his winblowz to work correctly. LX -- °°° Linux Mandrake 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk Filter That, Beach! --Lanman, MDK Newbie List Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
Franki schrieb am Mon, 10 Nov 2003 00:58:46 +0800: Perth has dozens of small business servers (biggest company has 40 employees) All of them are mandrake, non are 9.2 (yet) but that might change sometime soon when I am happy with it. (servers are 7.2 mostly, but some 8.1/8.2/9.0 machines also, but the 7.2 machines have been moved away from the internet.) All of them have been getting uptimes over 100 days (by which time I've had to restart them for a kernel upgrade or something).. Just as an aside: Did you post a report to MandrakeBizCases? http://www.mandrakebizcases.com/modules.php?name=Submit_News They are always glad to hear such things and the numerous reports on the site serve well as argumentation help for people trying to persuade their boss to have a look at Mandrake Linux. wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
I would LOVE to be able to do this in OpenOffice. I would LOVE for the document on the screen to appear as it does when I print it out (Lyx gives no indication of what the output will actually look like). LyX and LaTeX not WYSIWYG editors and actually make it a point in their documentation. Except for an occasional business letter using a template, I prefer to not have to worry about how the final page will look. [...] In this area, linux just lacks and cannot work as a dropin replacement for most users. Most users are not going to want to learn Lyx. Have you tried kile? It's still not a replacement for most people, but if you're reasonably proficient with LaTeX it can make editing easier. I've been playing around with it recently and it's similar in idea to something like quanta++. -- The Digital Hermit Unix and Linux Solutions http://www.digitalhermit.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 06:22, Bryan Phinney wrote: On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:42 am, Jack Coates wrote: Anyone interested in this mess should have a look at this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33823.html They're trying to increase revenues by preventing use of their desktop offering in the server room. They've chosen a method that cuts off the nose to spite the face, but I still think they'll continue to be quite successful in the Fortune 500 space for inertial reasons. Only thing is, when the Fortune 500 begins to seriously evaluate Linux desktops, they won't be running RH. The question is, once they bring in Mandrake or SuSE or Fedora for the desktops, what's going to stop them from bringing it into the server room too? My take on this is that it is more of a branding issue. Desktops need much more cutting edge, in most cases, than do servers and certainly different types of supported hardware. RH appears to be attempting to fully differentiate its offerings, Fedora on the desktop with more cutting edge releases and by necessity, more buggy software, and the staid, old tried and true Redhat that goes into the server, has paid support and doesn't depend as much on the community. I don't necessarily think that any of this is a bad idea, at least from the perspective of creating an OS that is designed for a specific segment. Where as I don't find fault with having two versions of any distro. I do however find fault with dissing an entire segment of your market/community/contributors just because it's convenient. Which is in many ways what the CEO of Red Hat et al. are doing. If Linux is so lousy on the desktop how come it is that I can use Linux exclusively yet work in a world where all around me are on various forms of other OS's. Basically I interpret what he said as, Thanks to your devotion over the last 8 years we have a solid product, now fsck off and don't bother us anymore. Your work, time and effort we didn't pay for, has been of tremendous value to us and we no longer think you are worth being concerned about. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not alone in this feeling. So to all former RH users Welcome to Mandrake. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sunday 09 November 2003 03:17 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: Basically I interpret what he said as, Thanks to your devotion over the last 8 years we have a solid product, now fsck off and don't bother us anymore. Your work, time and effort we didn't pay for, has been of tremendous value to us and we no longer think you are worth being concerned about. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not alone in this feeling. So to all former RH users Welcome to Mandrake. It is possible that they are doing exactly that. It is also possible that RH is acknowledging what a lot of other people have been slowly coming to realize, including myself, that MS sold the public a bill of goods when they convinced them that with the right OS, they could administer and manage a computer without gaining any real knowledge about what they are doing. Consumers won't get that message from a community effort like Fedora, but they have come to expect it from a commercial software company like RH. For better or worse, and as so many newcomers to Linux point out, people are looking for a replacement for MS Windows that does everything that it promises to do but doesn't just promise to do it but delivers. It is possible that there is some OS that will deliver on that, but I have yet to see it and don't believe that it will ever appear. In point of fact, that is precisely what MS has also been selling enterprises on for even server administration. Shows why a lot of MSCE's are so woefully unprepared to do real troubleshooting and actually fix problems versus the reinstall/reboot crap that MS teaches. And also why so many companies find it now so easy to outsource support to 3rd world locations at low wage rates. How hard is it to teach someone to say reboot and if that doesn't work then reinstall. If RH plans to throw away the desktop market and only sell servers, then they will soon find themselves marginalized in much the same fashion that Sun is currently marginalized to a very niche market. That doesn't really seem the way to expand and grow your business, and I wouldn't expect them to succeed at that either. If, however, they manage to keep enough ties between their server offering and the community sponsored desktop offering to convince companies that they can implement Fedora on the desktop, and RH in the enterprise and still get seamless integration between the two, compatibility and shared knowledge among support staff, then they may be able to actually sell a value proposition that actually delivers what it promises to deliver and not the load of bunk that MS has up to now been selling. I look at it this way. You can pay a higher price and get promises, support and accountability which is worth it for a business by buying RH. You can get the same functionality, but with more accountability placed on you to talk to the community and figure your problems out with Fedora. You get the same software either way, but the free version is only financially free, it requires personal responsibility. The pay version requires less responsibility and more money. Same choices that people have always had with Linux. Only now, they have slapped a different name on each just to make it more clear to the PHB types. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On September 1993 plus 3721 days Praedor Atrebates wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Well, I gotta say that Redhat does have a point. I do think that linux is not yet ready for the everyday desktop user except for Lindows - for a relatively small subpopulation. I have to disagree with you...my mom's first computer was a linux box I gave her for xmas 4 years ago...she has no problem using it. My 3yo nephew has been using linux for about a year (ok, he's precocious, but it had to happen, seeing as he comes to visit at least every 3rd day and there's computers everywhere in my house) and has never had a problem, except that I have to make sure only his login has the frog icon on it, because I think that's how he recognizes his name on the computer. Hell, my sister uses linux whenever she comes visit with my nephew, because there's nothing but linux in this house and in my parents' house. Can my mom, sister and nephew install and configure linux on their own? of course not...but they can't install and configure any other OS either. I install and configure linux for them, as well as do admin chores (updating and so on) for them remotely...just like any admin does for any user. So, my experience tells me...hell yes, linux is ready for the desktop of the mortal, as long as it's pre-installed, either by the HW company they get their computer from or by the friendly family geek. Vox -- Think of the Linux community as a niche economy isolated by its beliefs. Kind of like the Amish, except that our religion requires us to use _higher_ technology than everyone else. -- Donald B. Marti Jr. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
Yes, I know lyx is not WYSIWYG and that it is advertised as the ridiculous WYSIWYM (what you see is what you mean). In point of fact, it is the result of being stuck working with Latex via a GUI. It does a lot to remove the need of learning an entire programing language (LaTex) just to produce documents. That said, I merely lament the fact that I am forced to use Lyx, with all its difficulty, because there is nothing else like it in the linux world. There is NOTHING like Word/Wordperfect + EndNote in linux - Lyx contains it all in one package but you give up WYSIWYG and the ease that comes with that. I wrote my dissertation and other publications using Lyx. It works well but it is a royal pain in the ass to get it to do what you want. It truly is a weakness to not have any real idea about what your document will look like until you either actually print it, or repeatedly generate previews with each alteration/tweak. I am pleased that OpenOffice is working on this but it is still some time off. Until it is actually in the code, one is stuck with Lyx/Latex. Ugh. I am not proficient in Latex. I don't have the time nor the interest in learning a programming lanquage just to publish scientific results. I spend all day collecting data. I simply cannot (nor can my colleagues) spend the time needed to learn the intricacies of Latex. This is unrealistic. Word/Wordperfect/OpenOffice + EndNote removes the need for this on Windoze and the Mac. One day the equivalent functionality will be there for linux and future linux users. On Sunday 09 November 2003 02:42 pm, Kwan Lowe wrote: I would LOVE to be able to do this in OpenOffice. I would LOVE for the document on the screen to appear as it does when I print it out (Lyx gives no indication of what the output will actually look like). LyX and LaTeX not WYSIWYG editors and actually make it a point in their documentation. Except for an occasional business letter using a template, I prefer to not have to worry about how the final page will look. [...] In this area, linux just lacks and cannot work as a dropin replacement for most users. Most users are not going to want to learn Lyx. Have you tried kile? It's still not a replacement for most people, but if you're reasonably proficient with LaTeX it can make editing easier. I've been playing around with it recently and it's similar in idea to something like quanta++. -- Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. --Krakauer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
Fine. Do they all have root password available so they can do updates, reconfigure, build and install? These are things that are essentially handfed to windoze users. You click on an install button and app X is installed. Done. On linux this requires root. Simple enough if you are used to this but it is just another layer of complexity if you are a doze user. Sure, this admin is everyone thing is one of the primary weaknesses of doze wrt viruses, worms, and hackers, but it is easier to work with. My father can install a CD in his doze computer and click Install without problem. There would be problems if I had to walk him through setting up a root password (and remember it!), then a user password (remember it!). OK dad, setup your wireless connection. On doze this is trivial. On linux it is a frickin pain in the ass (I do it, after a modicum of hair pulling but then I know what I'm doing). You download your tarball, untar it, read the readme and install files. HOPEFULLY you will simply need to do a ./configure make make install (as root) and the driver will be ready. Now you just have to either mess with ugly commands via iwpriv or ifconfig. Depends on your device. OK, now setup spam filtering. Hah! Joe Blow can't handle it. WE can because we have generally been doing this for some time AND we have the time and inclination to learn all of this. Add in procmail (and the need to setup postfix or similar. Whew! Complexity beyond anything people mess with in doze). Yes, linux is great and powerful. I love it. But I would never ever be able to get my father, mother, wife to deal with all this. And ya know, you just can't always be there to deal with other people's computers all the time. My father doesn't live next door, he lives next state over. Unless Joe/Jane Blow user has an expert somewhere, they are not equipped to deal with linux. It's just that simple. And again, how do you explain to them that they'll just have to give up the cool games if they go linux? They LOVE the games afterall. OK, just reboot to winders. Well, why not just STAY in winders so you don't have to deal with the rebooting all the time? I merely think that for MOST people at home, linux is not there yet. For people at work or at schools where there are admins to deal with all the complexity of configuring and handling software install, it is perfectly fine, but for most at home? Nope. Not yet. On Sunday 09 November 2003 11:48 am, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 11:02, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 09 November 2003 09:24 am, Praedor Atrebates wrote: Well, I gotta say that Redhat does have a point. I do think that linux is not yet ready for the everyday desktop user except for Lindows - for a relatively small subpopulation. Hmm, I disagree. My 10 and 12 year old (not to mention my wife) use Mandrake here with very few problems. Sure, my wife uses it almost exclusively for e-mail and web-browsing, but thats what the Windoze majority does anyways, right? and the boys use it mostly for games...again, following the norm. Most Windows users run to a local Windog guru when they have problems anyways, and thats what my crowd here does - run to me. So whats the diff? :-) I've noticed the exact same thing, DL. In fact a young person I know recently told me that he could install and run Mandrake without trouble, yet couldn't seem to get winblowz to operate as easily, and deferred to a local shop for assistance in getting his winblowz to work correctly. LX -- Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. --Krakauer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 18:49:57 -0500, Praedor Atrebates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fine. I'm not disagreeing. But I have a couple observations. Now that Christmas ads are in full force, I noticed there is no reason for me to look at the software ads. Pre-linux I was always buying something, getting an upgrade to something. And that required more memory, more disk, more cpu. With Linux, everything I could want I installed when I installed the OS, or shortly thereafter. With windows I was always installing something. Now, I don't install stuff often. Maybe I do disagree just a little bit ;-), as in True, but. . . When I have installed, for most products I could install through MCC. That's easier than InstallShield. For most others I've needed, there was a mandrake RPM. My point is, a pc-illiterate user (I don't think) will need an application that's only available in a tarball. I have two pc's and a firewall pc, and since getting rid of windows my TCO has gone down - not only because of licensing fees but also my time. My kids are able to use linux without help from me (use, not administer) whereas with windows there were frequent corruption problems that I would have to resolve. Caused, in part, by them downloading screen savers, demos, games, malware, spyware, etc. This seems to be similar to Ronald's experience. just my .02 Phil Do they all have root password available so they can do updates, reconfigure, build and install? These are things that are essentially handfed to windoze users. You click on an install button and app X is installed. Done. On linux this requires root. Simple enough if you are used to this but it is just another layer of complexity if you are a doze user. Sure, this admin is everyone thing is one of the primary weaknesses of doze wrt viruses, worms, and hackers, but it is easier to work with. My father can install a CD in his doze computer and click Install without problem. There would be problems if I had to walk him through setting up a root password (and remember it!), then a user password (remember it!). OK dad, setup your wireless connection. On doze this is trivial. On linux it is a frickin pain in the ass (I do it, after a modicum of hair pulling but then I know what I'm doing). You download your tarball, untar it, read the readme and install files. HOPEFULLY you will simply need to do a ./configure make make install (as root) and the driver will be ready. Now you just have to either mess with ugly commands via iwpriv or ifconfig. Depends on your device. OK, now setup spam filtering. Hah! Joe Blow can't handle it. WE can because we have generally been doing this for some time AND we have the time and inclination to learn all of this. Add in procmail (and the need to setup postfix or similar. Whew! Complexity beyond anything people mess with in doze). Yes, linux is great and powerful. I love it. But I would never ever be able to get my father, mother, wife to deal with all this. And ya know, you just can't always be there to deal with other people's computers all the time. My father doesn't live next door, he lives next state over. Unless Joe/Jane Blow user has an expert somewhere, they are not equipped to deal with linux. It's just that simple. And again, how do you explain to them that they'll just have to give up the cool games if they go linux? They LOVE the games afterall. OK, just reboot to winders. Well, why not just STAY in winders so you don't have to deal with the rebooting all the time? I merely think that for MOST people at home, linux is not there yet. For people at work or at schools where there are admins to deal with all the complexity of configuring and handling software install, it is perfectly fine, but for most at home? Nope. Not yet. On Sunday 09 November 2003 11:48 am, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 11:02, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 09 November 2003 09:24 am, Praedor Atrebates wrote: Well, I gotta say that Redhat does have a point. I do think that linux is not yet ready for the everyday desktop user except for Lindows - for a relatively small subpopulation. Hmm, I disagree. My 10 and 12 year old (not to mention my wife) use Mandrake here with very few problems. Sure, my wife uses it almost exclusively for e-mail and web-browsing, but thats what the Windoze majority does anyways, right? and the boys use it mostly for games...again, following the norm. Most Windows users run to a local Windog guru when they have problems anyways, and thats what my crowd here does - run to me. So whats the diff? :-) I've noticed the exact same thing, DL. In fact a young person I know recently told me that he could install and run Mandrake without trouble, yet couldn't seem to get winblowz to operate as easily, and deferred to a local shop for assistance in getting his winblowz to work correctly. LX -- Using Mandrake Linux 9.1
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 15:49, Praedor Atrebates wrote: Fine. Do they all have root password available so they can do updates, reconfigure, build and install? These are things that are essentially handfed to windoze users. You click on an install button and app X is installed. Done. On linux this requires root. Simple enough if you are used to this but it is just another layer of complexity if you are a doze user. Sure, this admin is everyone thing is one of the primary weaknesses of doze wrt viruses, worms, and hackers, but it is easier to work with. My father can install a CD in his doze computer and click Install without problem. There would be problems if I had to walk him through setting up a root password (and remember it!), then a user password (remember it!). OK dad, setup your wireless connection. On doze this is trivial. depends on your box. On this one it won't work with doze. Does with Linux. I've gone both ways over the last 6 months. On linux it is a frickin pain in the ass (I do it, after a modicum of hair pulling but then I know what I'm doing). You download your tarball, untar it, read the readme and install files. HOPEFULLY you will simply need to do a ./configure make make install (as root) and the driver will be ready. Now you just have to either mess with ugly commands via iwpriv or ifconfig. Depends on your device. And short of the compile in doze it's buy a card. Find out that the chipset and the driver on the disk don't match. Download a new driver find out it's incompatible with your laptop. Drive to Fry's exchange and start all over. Took 3 trips to Fry's for a business partner of mine to get a working wireless in his new Dell. (and 4 calls to Dell) On my laptop it flat won't work with doze. On linux I've had 6 different cards work the same way. Plug them in. They work. (mostly ones I borrowed from friends.) OK, now setup spam filtering. Hah! Joe Blow can't handle it. WE can because we have generally been doing this for some time AND we have the time and inclination to learn all of this. Add in procmail (and the need to setup postfix or similar. Whew! Complexity beyond anything people mess with in doze). Yes, linux is great and powerful. I love it. But I would never ever be able to get my father, mother, wife to deal with all this. And ya know, you just can't always be there to deal with other people's computers all the time. My father doesn't live next door, he lives next state over. Which is why it should be on the MTA not on the box. Unless Joe/Jane Blow user has an expert somewhere, they are not equipped to deal with linux. It's just that simple. And again, how do you explain to them that they'll just have to give up the cool games if they go linux? They LOVE the games afterall. OK, just reboot to winders. Well, why not just STAY in winders so you don't have to deal with the rebooting all the time? My Mom is on Unix (70 next may) my sister and my 3 year old... just to give you the other side of the coin. (My wife won't try it. or rather doesn't know she's using it. *grin*) I merely think that for MOST people at home, linux is not there yet. For people at work or at schools where there are admins to deal with all the complexity of configuring and handling software install, it is perfectly fine, but for most at home? Nope. Not yet. The number one problem I've found with Linux is that the people advocating it (And lord knows I'm as guilty as anyone) shows people way to much. Second advantage it's already installed. This is an advantage that cannot be matched with Linux. Since rarely if ever does it come both pre-installed and working right. (Note both conditions.) I just spent 3 days working with a guy setting up filters in outlook. Thank god I use evolution, since they are so similar. 2 days on the phone, the third I said the heck with it drove to his house and we did it face to face. His XP box had been setup right. both a user and an admin (not running all the time as root like most boxes.) As for spam filtering. Can't find one that works right in windows. Just flat not fine grained enough or easy enough for someone like my wife to use/install. Some things are admin tasks and need to remain that way. No matter what OS. On Sunday 09 November 2003 11:48 am, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 11:02, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 09 November 2003 09:24 am, Praedor Atrebates wrote: Well, I gotta say that Redhat does have a point. I do think that linux is not yet ready for the everyday desktop user except for Lindows - for a relatively small subpopulation. Hmm, I disagree. My 10 and 12 year old (not to mention my wife) use Mandrake here with very few problems. Sure, my wife uses it almost exclusively for e-mail and web-browsing, but thats what the Windoze majority does anyways,
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 16:47, Phil G. wrote: ... I have two pc's and a firewall pc, and since getting rid of windows my TCO has gone down - not only because of licensing fees but also my time. My kids are able to use linux without help from me (use, not administer) whereas with windows there were frequent corruption problems that I would have to resolve. Caused, in part, by them downloading screen savers, demos, games, malware, spyware, etc. This seems to be similar to Ronald's experience. agreed on all points, with one exception -- my family is under the impression that the difficulties they encounter with Shockwave apps that cxplugin can't handle are going to go away with a different computer, and there's also an up-and-coming need for more educational software, and of course a wish for games. We're using what's there for Linux, but there are issues with providing all arcade all the time instead of the educational software available under other platforms. So the compromise is turning out to be a OS X Mac to sit next to the Linux box. I refused to administer another Windows box. Put that in your pipe and smoke it :-) ... -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Sunday 09 November 2003 11:48 am, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: I've noticed the exact same thing, DL. In fact a young person I know recently told me that he could install and run Mandrake without trouble, yet couldn't seem to get winblowz to operate as easily, and deferred to a local shop for assistance in getting his winblowz to work correctly. LX Yep - and man O! man I'd much rather work on just about anything 'Nix than a MicroSlop product! grin -- /\ DarkLord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] (OT)Uh..... Am I alone in noticing the insanity?
On Monday 10 Nov 2003 1:04 am, James Sparenberg wrote: As for spam filtering. Can't find one that works right in windows. Just flat not fine grained enough or easy enough for someone like my wife to use/install. Some things are admin tasks and need to remain that way. No matter what OS. James, under Mdk I run POPFile http://mandrake.vmlinuz.ca/bin/view/Main/PopFile If you haven't looked at it, you should. I understand it is cross-platform, and I am going to try it on a windows box as soon as I can. Certainly under linux it is extremely simple both to install and to train/run. It achieves better thn 99% accuracy all the time. Assuming that the windows version is anything like the linux one, this is going to be far more practical than the complex ones more commonly used, and it just works. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
