Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Björn Lindqvist]

It's like this. You are asking the restaurant to serve you a $1
hamburger and are getting annoyed because the chef is preparing a five
course dinner. :) It is fair to want a $1 hamburger quickly, but a
restaurant not specialized in serving them might not be able to make
one that fast.

In this case, Factor starts a whole integrated development
environment, complete with a compiler and gui, but you are just
interested in running a small script. One solution is running Factor
as a server. It's not bad, I do it all the time and IPC between Emacs
and Factor works really smooth. It could work just as well between
Factor and Bash. But if you aren't willing to accept that solution
then it is hard to solve your problem because Factor's startup time is
IO bound. E.g take a look at:

#include 
#include 

int main(int argc, char *argv[]) {
FILE *f = fopen("/home/bjourne/pubwork/factor-orig/factor.image", "rb");
fseek(f, 0L, SEEK_END);
long size = ftell(f);
fseek(f, 0L, SEEK_SET);
char *heap = malloc(size * 3);
fread(heap, size, 1, f);
long chk = 0;
for (long n = 0; n < size; n += 200) {
chk += heap[n];
}
printf("%ld\n", chk);
free(heap);
fclose(f);
return 0;
}

On my computer, with the factor.image file hot, running this example
takes 140 ms and ./factor -e='' 240 ms. So as you can see, reaching
Bash's startup time isn't realistic. Even an image 1/10th the size of
the standard one (118 mb) would take roughly 24 ms to load which is
still much slower than Bash.

Afaik, almost no language runtime can compile and interpret source
files nearly as fast as Bash.

2017-02-02 10:09 GMT+01:00  :
> No need to apologize, as far as I'm concerned we're just discussing :)
> Now I hope I didn't sound too rude. I'm just trying to get on the same
> page with everyone. The provided solutions are in the line of "if the
> initialization is taking longer than you'd like, here's a way how to
> initialize only once". My focus is somewhere else though - why is the
> initialization taking so long? John is saying there's room for
> improvement, room to do less.
>
> --


-- 
mvh/best regards Björn Lindqvist

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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-02-10 01:44, John Benediktsson wrote:
> Right, probably 80-85% of the startup time is in the C++ method
> factor_vm::load_image.
> 
> Breaking it down further:
> 
> - 32% of the startup time is factor_vm::load_data_heap
> - 15% of the startup time is factor_vm::load_code_heap
> - 32% of the startup time is factor_vm::fixup_heaps
> 
> It's on the list to dig into but if you'd like, you could look there 
> and
> see if there are improvements to be made.
> 
> Best,
> John.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 7:19 AM,  wrote:
> 
>> On 2017-02-02 09:59, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
>> > On 2017-02-01 22:39, John Benediktsson wrote:
>> >> Feel free to jump in a profile startup and make some patches to
>> >> improve
>> >> things.
>> >>
>> >> Most languages seem to be under 50 milliseconds for the "startup and
>> >> run no
>> >> code" test case, so I would guess that should be fairly achievable.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> John.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:10 PM,  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
>> >>> > So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
>> >>> > parameters to
>> >>> > a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take
>> >>> several
>> >>> issues with that:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and
>> >>> future
>> >>> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
>> >>> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables.
>> >>> Some
>> >>> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If
>> >>> every
>> >>> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
>> >>>
>> >>> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs 
>> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> Have you tried loading the
>> >>> >> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
>> >>> >> quicker while another factor process is running?
>> >>>
>> >>> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
>> >>> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
>> >>> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I
>> >>> do
>> >>> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other
>> >>> PCs
>> >>> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up
>> >>> but
>> >>> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
>> >>> than it is necessary.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> 
>> >>>Peter Nagy
>> >>> 
>> >>>
>> >>> 
>> >>> --
>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> ___
>> >>> Factor-talk mailing list
>> >>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> 
>> --
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> ___
>> >> Factor-talk mailing list
>> >> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>> >
>> > I'd gladly take a look. Could you give me a hint how could I get
>> > profiling statistics of the boot? I guess most of the startup time is
>> > spent in factor code so I'd need to jack in a call to profile
>> > somewhere and rebuild?
>> 
>> I did a quick check with sysdig on the time of system calls - it shows
>> the base image takes ~50ms to load from my 180ms startup time (which
>> isn't too bad for 115MB file I guess). No other interesting syscalls, 
>> so
>> I guess the leftover 130ms are spent in factor. I'll try to take a 
>> look
>> how could I get profiling statistics on the startup of the listener.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>>Peter Nagy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
>> Factor-talk mailing list
>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>> 
> 
> --
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Unfortuna

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[John Benediktsson]

Right, probably 80-85% of the startup time is in the C++ method
factor_vm::load_image.

Breaking it down further:

- 32% of the startup time is factor_vm::load_data_heap
- 15% of the startup time is factor_vm::load_code_heap
- 32% of the startup time is factor_vm::fixup_heaps

It's on the list to dig into but if you'd like, you could look there and
see if there are improvements to be made.

Best,
John.




On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 7:19 AM,  wrote:

> On 2017-02-02 09:59, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> > On 2017-02-01 22:39, John Benediktsson wrote:
> >> Feel free to jump in a profile startup and make some patches to
> >> improve
> >> things.
> >>
> >> Most languages seem to be under 50 milliseconds for the "startup and
> >> run no
> >> code" test case, so I would guess that should be fairly achievable.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> John.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:10 PM,  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
> >>> > So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
> >>> > parameters to
> >>> > a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take
> >>> several
> >>> issues with that:
> >>>
> >>> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and
> >>> future
> >>> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
> >>> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables.
> >>> Some
> >>> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If
> >>> every
> >>> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
> >>>
> >>> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs 
> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Have you tried loading the
> >>> >> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
> >>> >> quicker while another factor process is running?
> >>>
> >>> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
> >>> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
> >>> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I
> >>> do
> >>> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other
> >>> PCs
> >>> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up
> >>> but
> >>> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
> >>> than it is necessary.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> 
> >>>Peter Nagy
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> --
> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >>> ___
> >>> Factor-talk mailing list
> >>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> >>>
> >>
> >> 
> --
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> ___
> >> Factor-talk mailing list
> >> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> >
> > I'd gladly take a look. Could you give me a hint how could I get
> > profiling statistics of the boot? I guess most of the startup time is
> > spent in factor code so I'd need to jack in a call to profile
> > somewhere and rebuild?
>
> I did a quick check with sysdig on the time of system calls - it shows
> the base image takes ~50ms to load from my 180ms startup time (which
> isn't too bad for 115MB file I guess). No other interesting syscalls, so
> I guess the leftover 130ms are spent in factor. I'll try to take a look
> how could I get profiling statistics on the startup of the listener.
>
> --
> 
>Peter Nagy
> 
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Factor-talk mailing list
> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>
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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-02-02 09:59, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> On 2017-02-01 22:39, John Benediktsson wrote:
>> Feel free to jump in a profile startup and make some patches to 
>> improve
>> things.
>> 
>> Most languages seem to be under 50 milliseconds for the "startup and 
>> run no
>> code" test case, so I would guess that should be fairly achievable.
>> 
>> Best,
>> John.
>> 
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:10 PM,  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
>>> > So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
>>> > parameters to
>>> > a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
>>> >
>>> 
>>> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take 
>>> several
>>> issues with that:
>>> 
>>> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and 
>>> future
>>> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
>>> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. 
>>> Some
>>> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If 
>>> every
>>> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
>>> 
>>> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Have you tried loading the
>>> >> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
>>> >> quicker while another factor process is running?
>>> 
>>> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
>>> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
>>> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I 
>>> do
>>> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other 
>>> PCs
>>> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up 
>>> but
>>> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
>>> than it is necessary.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>>Peter Nagy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> ___
>>> Factor-talk mailing list
>>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
>> Factor-talk mailing list
>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> 
> I'd gladly take a look. Could you give me a hint how could I get
> profiling statistics of the boot? I guess most of the startup time is
> spent in factor code so I'd need to jack in a call to profile
> somewhere and rebuild?

I did a quick check with sysdig on the time of system calls - it shows 
the base image takes ~50ms to load from my 180ms startup time (which 
isn't too bad for 115MB file I guess). No other interesting syscalls, so 
I guess the leftover 130ms are spent in factor. I'll try to take a look 
how could I get profiling statistics on the startup of the listener.

-- 

   Peter Nagy


--
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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Timothy Hobbs]

Yes, the lockfile method is only if you cannot get startup times down 
otherwise and need to resort to starting only once, but do not want to 
have a "forever running daemon".


On 02/02/2017 10:09 AM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> On 2017-02-01 22:44, Jim Mack wrote:
>> Forgive me if I sounded like I was pushing.  I am working daily in OS
>> development where tools like grunt are commonly accepted, and
>> developers
>> accept choices that maximize their power/ease over many other concerns.
>>   I
>> never heard the slippery slope argument used against node.js, and it
>> would
>> surely lose!
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:
>>
>>> Just so you understand the gif, what happens is a client starts up. It
>>> grabs a lock on the counter file. It reads the counter file. If the
>>> counter is zero, it launches the service. If it is greater than zero,
>>> then it connects to the service. After launching or connecting to the
>>> service, it increments the counter, and releases the lock on the lock
>>> file. When a client closes, it sends a command to the service, which
>>> then grabs a lock on the lock file. Decriments the counter, and if the
>>> counter is now zero, it shuts down, otherwise it merely releases the
>>> lock. There are no race conditions with this method. If two clients
>>> start up at the same time, they will have to wait in line for a
>>> connection to the lock file. If a client shuts down at the same time
>>> as
>>> another client starts up, this to means that the service and the
>>> client
>>> will have to wait their turns for the lock, and therefore, no races...
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02/01/2017 11:16 PM, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
 You can use a dbus on-demand service or your own locking mechanism, if
 you, like me, don't like dbus. Here is a gif which describes the process
 for starting and stopping a race-free on demand service
 http://timothy.hobbs.cz/subuser-client-service/lock-file.gif using
 standard lock files. You can modify this method, so that the service
 remains running for a certain number of seconds after the client counter
 has reached zero, so that in a sequential shell script, you wouldn't be
 launching and stopping the service over and over again.

 However, what I was refering to, with shared executable memory, has
 nothing to do with background daemons. It is a feature that is built
 into most modern OS kernels. Many kernels load memory pages that are
 marked as executable as read-only, and share those pages between
 processes. This greatly reduces startup times, and also improves
 security (marking them read only that is). It has the dissadvantage,
 that self modifying code is impossible. Factor, being a weird system
 that self-modifies itself, cannot take advantage of this mechanism at
 all. So we'll have to do something more advanced, like use criu, which I
 linked to previously.

 On 02/01/2017 11:10 PM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
>> So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
>> parameters to
>> a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
>>
> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take several
> issues with that:
>
> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and future
> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. Some
> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If every
> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs 
>>> wrote:
>>> Have you tried loading the
>>> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
>>> quicker while another factor process is running?
> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
>
>
> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I do
> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other PCs
> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up but
> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
> than it is necessary.
>
 
>>> --
 Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
 engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
 ___
 Factor-talk mailing list
 Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>>>
>>> 
>>> -

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-02-01 22:44, Jim Mack wrote:
> Forgive me if I sounded like I was pushing.  I am working daily in OS
> development where tools like grunt are commonly accepted, and 
> developers
> accept choices that maximize their power/ease over many other concerns. 
>  I
> never heard the slippery slope argument used against node.js, and it 
> would
> surely lose!
> 
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:
> 
>> Just so you understand the gif, what happens is a client starts up. It
>> grabs a lock on the counter file. It reads the counter file. If the
>> counter is zero, it launches the service. If it is greater than zero,
>> then it connects to the service. After launching or connecting to the
>> service, it increments the counter, and releases the lock on the lock
>> file. When a client closes, it sends a command to the service, which
>> then grabs a lock on the lock file. Decriments the counter, and if the
>> counter is now zero, it shuts down, otherwise it merely releases the
>> lock. There are no race conditions with this method. If two clients
>> start up at the same time, they will have to wait in line for a
>> connection to the lock file. If a client shuts down at the same time 
>> as
>> another client starts up, this to means that the service and the 
>> client
>> will have to wait their turns for the lock, and therefore, no races...
>> 
>> 
>> On 02/01/2017 11:16 PM, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
>> > You can use a dbus on-demand service or your own locking mechanism, if
>> > you, like me, don't like dbus. Here is a gif which describes the process
>> > for starting and stopping a race-free on demand service
>> > http://timothy.hobbs.cz/subuser-client-service/lock-file.gif using
>> > standard lock files. You can modify this method, so that the service
>> > remains running for a certain number of seconds after the client counter
>> > has reached zero, so that in a sequential shell script, you wouldn't be
>> > launching and stopping the service over and over again.
>> >
>> > However, what I was refering to, with shared executable memory, has
>> > nothing to do with background daemons. It is a feature that is built
>> > into most modern OS kernels. Many kernels load memory pages that are
>> > marked as executable as read-only, and share those pages between
>> > processes. This greatly reduces startup times, and also improves
>> > security (marking them read only that is). It has the dissadvantage,
>> > that self modifying code is impossible. Factor, being a weird system
>> > that self-modifies itself, cannot take advantage of this mechanism at
>> > all. So we'll have to do something more advanced, like use criu, which I
>> > linked to previously.
>> >
>> > On 02/01/2017 11:10 PM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
>> >> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
>> >>> So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
>> >>> parameters to
>> >>> a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
>> >>>
>> >> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take several
>> >> issues with that:
>> >>
>> >> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and future
>> >> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
>> >> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. Some
>> >> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If every
>> >> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
>> >>
>> >>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs 
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>>  Have you tried loading the
>>  factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
>>  quicker while another factor process is running?
>> >> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
>> >> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
>> >> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I do
>> >> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other PCs
>> >> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up but
>> >> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
>> >> than it is necessary.
>> >>
>> >
>> > 
>> --
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > ___
>> > Factor-talk mailing list
>> > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
>> Factor-talk mailing list
>> Factor-talk@lists.source

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-02-01 22:39, John Benediktsson wrote:
> Feel free to jump in a profile startup and make some patches to improve
> things.
> 
> Most languages seem to be under 50 milliseconds for the "startup and 
> run no
> code" test case, so I would guess that should be fairly achievable.
> 
> Best,
> John.
> 
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:10 PM,  wrote:
> 
>> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
>> > So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
>> > parameters to
>> > a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
>> >
>> 
>> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take 
>> several
>> issues with that:
>> 
>> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and future
>> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
>> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. Some
>> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If every
>> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
>> 
>> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Have you tried loading the
>> >> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
>> >> quicker while another factor process is running?
>> 
>> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
>> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
>> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
>> 
>> 
>> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I do
>> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other 
>> PCs
>> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up 
>> but
>> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
>> than it is necessary.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>>Peter Nagy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
>> Factor-talk mailing list
>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>> 
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Factor-talk mailing list
> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk

I'd gladly take a look. Could you give me a hint how could I get 
profiling statistics of the boot? I guess most of the startup time is 
spent in factor code so I'd need to jack in a call to profile somewhere 
and rebuild?

-- 

   Peter Nagy


--
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engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Jim Mack]

Forgive me if I sounded like I was pushing.  I am working daily in OS
development where tools like grunt are commonly accepted, and developers
accept choices that maximize their power/ease over many other concerns.  I
never heard the slippery slope argument used against node.js, and it would
surely lose!

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:

> Just so you understand the gif, what happens is a client starts up. It
> grabs a lock on the counter file. It reads the counter file. If the
> counter is zero, it launches the service. If it is greater than zero,
> then it connects to the service. After launching or connecting to the
> service, it increments the counter, and releases the lock on the lock
> file. When a client closes, it sends a command to the service, which
> then grabs a lock on the lock file. Decriments the counter, and if the
> counter is now zero, it shuts down, otherwise it merely releases the
> lock. There are no race conditions with this method. If two clients
> start up at the same time, they will have to wait in line for a
> connection to the lock file. If a client shuts down at the same time as
> another client starts up, this to means that the service and the client
> will have to wait their turns for the lock, and therefore, no races...
>
>
> On 02/01/2017 11:16 PM, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
> > You can use a dbus on-demand service or your own locking mechanism, if
> > you, like me, don't like dbus. Here is a gif which describes the process
> > for starting and stopping a race-free on demand service
> > http://timothy.hobbs.cz/subuser-client-service/lock-file.gif using
> > standard lock files. You can modify this method, so that the service
> > remains running for a certain number of seconds after the client counter
> > has reached zero, so that in a sequential shell script, you wouldn't be
> > launching and stopping the service over and over again.
> >
> > However, what I was refering to, with shared executable memory, has
> > nothing to do with background daemons. It is a feature that is built
> > into most modern OS kernels. Many kernels load memory pages that are
> > marked as executable as read-only, and share those pages between
> > processes. This greatly reduces startup times, and also improves
> > security (marking them read only that is). It has the dissadvantage,
> > that self modifying code is impossible. Factor, being a weird system
> > that self-modifies itself, cannot take advantage of this mechanism at
> > all. So we'll have to do something more advanced, like use criu, which I
> > linked to previously.
> >
> > On 02/01/2017 11:10 PM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> >> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
> >>> So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
> >>> parameters to
> >>> a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
> >>>
> >> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take several
> >> issues with that:
> >>
> >> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and future
> >> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
> >> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. Some
> >> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If every
> >> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs 
> wrote:
> >>>
>  Have you tried loading the
>  factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
>  quicker while another factor process is running?
> >> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
> >> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
> >> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
> >>
> >>
> >> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I do
> >> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other PCs
> >> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up but
> >> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
> >> than it is necessary.
> >>
> >
> > 
> --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>
>
> 
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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[John Benediktsson]

Feel free to jump in a profile startup and make some patches to improve
things.

Most languages seem to be under 50 milliseconds for the "startup and run no
code" test case, so I would guess that should be fairly achievable.

Best,
John.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:10 PM,  wrote:

> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
> > So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
> > parameters to
> > a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
> >
>
> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take several
> issues with that:
>
> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and future
> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. Some
> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If every
> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:
> >
> >> Have you tried loading the
> >> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
> >> quicker while another factor process is running?
>
> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
>
>
> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I do
> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other PCs
> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up but
> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
> than it is necessary.
>
> --
> 
>Peter Nagy
> 
>
> 
> --
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Timothy Hobbs]

Just so you understand the gif, what happens is a client starts up. It 
grabs a lock on the counter file. It reads the counter file. If the 
counter is zero, it launches the service. If it is greater than zero, 
then it connects to the service. After launching or connecting to the 
service, it increments the counter, and releases the lock on the lock 
file. When a client closes, it sends a command to the service, which 
then grabs a lock on the lock file. Decriments the counter, and if the 
counter is now zero, it shuts down, otherwise it merely releases the 
lock. There are no race conditions with this method. If two clients 
start up at the same time, they will have to wait in line for a 
connection to the lock file. If a client shuts down at the same time as 
another client starts up, this to means that the service and the client 
will have to wait their turns for the lock, and therefore, no races...


On 02/01/2017 11:16 PM, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
> You can use a dbus on-demand service or your own locking mechanism, if
> you, like me, don't like dbus. Here is a gif which describes the process
> for starting and stopping a race-free on demand service
> http://timothy.hobbs.cz/subuser-client-service/lock-file.gif using
> standard lock files. You can modify this method, so that the service
> remains running for a certain number of seconds after the client counter
> has reached zero, so that in a sequential shell script, you wouldn't be
> launching and stopping the service over and over again.
>
> However, what I was refering to, with shared executable memory, has
> nothing to do with background daemons. It is a feature that is built
> into most modern OS kernels. Many kernels load memory pages that are
> marked as executable as read-only, and share those pages between
> processes. This greatly reduces startup times, and also improves
> security (marking them read only that is). It has the dissadvantage,
> that self modifying code is impossible. Factor, being a weird system
> that self-modifies itself, cannot take advantage of this mechanism at
> all. So we'll have to do something more advanced, like use criu, which I
> linked to previously.
>
> On 02/01/2017 11:10 PM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
>> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
>>> So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
>>> parameters to
>>> a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
>>>
>> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take several
>> issues with that:
>>
>> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and future
>> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
>> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. Some
>> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If every
>> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:
>>>
 Have you tried loading the
 factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
 quicker while another factor process is running?
>> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
>> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
>> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
>>
>>
>> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I do
>> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other PCs
>> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up but
>> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
>> than it is necessary.
>>
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk


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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Timothy Hobbs]

You can use a dbus on-demand service or your own locking mechanism, if 
you, like me, don't like dbus. Here is a gif which describes the process 
for starting and stopping a race-free on demand service 
http://timothy.hobbs.cz/subuser-client-service/lock-file.gif using 
standard lock files. You can modify this method, so that the service 
remains running for a certain number of seconds after the client counter 
has reached zero, so that in a sequential shell script, you wouldn't be 
launching and stopping the service over and over again.

However, what I was refering to, with shared executable memory, has 
nothing to do with background daemons. It is a feature that is built 
into most modern OS kernels. Many kernels load memory pages that are 
marked as executable as read-only, and share those pages between 
processes. This greatly reduces startup times, and also improves 
security (marking them read only that is). It has the dissadvantage, 
that self modifying code is impossible. Factor, being a weird system 
that self-modifies itself, cannot take advantage of this mechanism at 
all. So we'll have to do something more advanced, like use criu, which I 
linked to previously.

On 02/01/2017 11:10 PM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
>> So why not create a separate small process that passes on its
>> parameters to
>> a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
>>
> That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take several
> issues with that:
>
> 1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and future
> to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
> 2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. Some
> will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If every
> language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?
>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:
>>
>>> Have you tried loading the
>>> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
>>> quicker while another factor process is running?
> I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary
> gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think
> running a server for each possible language is a good solution.
>
>
> Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I do
> have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other PCs
> / colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up but
> a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users
> than it is necessary.
>


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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-02-01 19:40, Jim Mack wrote:
> So why not create a separate small process that passes on its 
> parameters to
> a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?
> 

That's like running a server and sending requests to it. I take several 
issues with that:

1 - I need one instance to have *all* my libraries, present and future 
to be pre-loaded. But more importantly:
2 - a typical shell script can call a dozen external executables. Some 
will be in C, some in bash, some in python, some in perl etc. If every 
language would need a huge server to run, where would that leave us?

> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:
> 
>> Have you tried loading the
>> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
>> quicker while another factor process is running?

I did what I think is fair - started it once so everything necessary 
gets cached in RAM and discard that run. As noted above I don't think 
running a server for each possible language is a good solution.


Feel free to contradict me gentlemen, I'm open to discussion, but I do 
have my own opinion of what is acceptable and transferable to other PCs 
/ colleagues. I'm not looking for some local hack to speed things up but 
a general solution that doesn't put any more burden on the end users 
than it is necessary.

-- 

   Peter Nagy


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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Jim Mack]

So why not create a separate small process that passes on its parameters to
a running factor if it can find it, or starts a new one if it can't?

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Timothy Hobbs  wrote:

> One thing that occures to me, is that bash is cheeting. Bash actually
> takes longer than that to load to memory, but because it is already
> running on your system, on linux at least, the new bash process shares
> executable memory with the old bash processes. Factor probably loads
> everything to DATA sections of memory (which are read-write) and
> therefore linux cannot share all of that effort that has gone into
> loading the factor process. I'm not an expert on how this works, so
> please don't yell at me if I'm wrong ;). Have you tried loading the
> factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
> quicker while another factor process is running?
>
>
> On 02/01/2017 16:31, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> > On 2017-02-01 15:16, John Benediktsson wrote:
> >> I did that and it's not a huge amount, maybe 10-20%. We need to
> >> profile and see what else it's doing. Like I said, low hanging fruit
> >> are aplenty.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:37 AM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> >>>
>  On 2017-02-01 00:19, John Benediktsson wrote:
>  Part of the startup time is calling all of our "startup hooks", of
>  which I
>  have 35 right now in my Factor instance, in all of these
>  vocabularies:
> 
>  {
> "alien"
> "destructors"
> "alien.strings"
> "io.backend"
> "source-files.errors"
> "compiler.units"
> "vocabs"
> "io.files"
> "vocabs.loader"
> "command-line"
> "threads"
> "cpu.x86.features"
> "io.thread"
> "core-foundation.run-loop"
> "environment"
> "io.backend.unix:signal-pipe-thread"
> "io.launcher"
> "random.unix"
> "bootstrap.random"
> "io.sockets:ipv6-supported?"
> "openssl"
> "tools.crossref"
> "cocoa"
> "io.files.temp"
> "tools.deprecation"
> "core-foundation"
> "vocabs.cache"
> "vocabs.refresh.monitor"
> "opengl.gl"
> "opengl"
> "ui"
> "core-text.fonts"
> "core-text"
> "tools.errors.model"
> "ui.tools.error-list"
>  }
> 
>  I'm sure a lot of that could be delayed in smart ways to make startup
>  time
>  faster, that's what I meant by low hanging fruit, but also not
>  something
>  that anyone is working on right now.
> 
>  Best,
>  John.
> 
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:40 PM,  wrote:
> >
> >> On 2017-01-30 18:14, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
> >> If you are on linux, you might try this very new feature:
> >> https://criu.org/Main_Page
> >>
> >>> On 01/30/2017 17:29, Jim Mack wrote:
> >>> You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash
> >>> requests to it through a web page, and it would be able to
> >>> accomplish
> >>> them locally (or remotely) and report you the results.  It would
> >>> be a
> >>> quick round-trip cycle with great feedback and the ability to
> >>> bookmark
> >>> commands.
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM,  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
>  It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low
> >>> hanging
>  fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that
> >>>on my
>  list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net
> >>> wrote:
> > I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash.
> >>> That is
> > becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
> > language
> > on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way
> >>> to
> > trip
> > you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I
> >>> know
> > it's
> > an old language that has to keep a lot of backward
> >>>compatibility and
> > it
> > actually still serves very well for what it was designed for,
> >>>as long
> > as
> > your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be
> >>> desired.
> > Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a
> >>>lot of
> > libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it
> >>> to
> > your
> > will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun
> >>>experiment to
> > write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
> > However
> > there's a bone to be picked:
> >
> > $ 

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Timothy Hobbs]

One thing that occures to me, is that bash is cheeting. Bash actually
takes longer than that to load to memory, but because it is already
running on your system, on linux at least, the new bash process shares
executable memory with the old bash processes. Factor probably loads
everything to DATA sections of memory (which are read-write) and
therefore linux cannot share all of that effort that has gone into
loading the factor process. I'm not an expert on how this works, so
please don't yell at me if I'm wrong ;). Have you tried loading the
factor interpreter in the background and seeing if factor launches
quicker while another factor process is running?


On 02/01/2017 16:31, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> On 2017-02-01 15:16, John Benediktsson wrote:
>> I did that and it's not a huge amount, maybe 10-20%. We need to
>> profile and see what else it's doing. Like I said, low hanging fruit
>> are aplenty.
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:37 AM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
>>>
 On 2017-02-01 00:19, John Benediktsson wrote:
 Part of the startup time is calling all of our "startup hooks", of
 which I
 have 35 right now in my Factor instance, in all of these 
 vocabularies:

 {
"alien"
"destructors"
"alien.strings"
"io.backend"
"source-files.errors"
"compiler.units"
"vocabs"
"io.files"
"vocabs.loader"
"command-line"
"threads"
"cpu.x86.features"
"io.thread"
"core-foundation.run-loop"
"environment"
"io.backend.unix:signal-pipe-thread"
"io.launcher"
"random.unix"
"bootstrap.random"
"io.sockets:ipv6-supported?"
"openssl"
"tools.crossref"
"cocoa"
"io.files.temp"
"tools.deprecation"
"core-foundation"
"vocabs.cache"
"vocabs.refresh.monitor"
"opengl.gl"
"opengl"
"ui"
"core-text.fonts"
"core-text"
"tools.errors.model"
"ui.tools.error-list"
 }

 I'm sure a lot of that could be delayed in smart ways to make startup
 time
 faster, that's what I meant by low hanging fruit, but also not
 something
 that anyone is working on right now.

 Best,
 John.

> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:40 PM,  wrote:
>
>> On 2017-01-30 18:14, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
>> If you are on linux, you might try this very new feature:
>> https://criu.org/Main_Page
>>
>>> On 01/30/2017 17:29, Jim Mack wrote:
>>> You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash
>>> requests to it through a web page, and it would be able to 
>>> accomplish
>>> them locally (or remotely) and report you the results.  It would 
>>> be a
>>> quick round-trip cycle with great feedback and the ability to 
>>> bookmark
>>> commands.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM, >> > wrote:
>>>
On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
 It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low
>>> hanging
 fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that
>>>on my
 list, unless someone looks into it sooner.



> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net
>>> wrote:
> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash.
>>> That is
> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
> language
> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way
>>> to
> trip
> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I
>>> know
> it's
> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward
>>>compatibility and
> it
> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for,
>>>as long
> as
> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be
>>> desired.
> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a
>>>lot of
> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it
>>> to
> your
> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun
>>>experiment to
> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
> However
> there's a bone to be picked:
>
> $ time bash -c ''
> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
>
> $ time factor-vm -e=''
> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
>
> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the
>>>startup
> a
> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down
>>> to
> bash's
> startup time *and* still have all the neces

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-02-01 15:16, John Benediktsson wrote:
> I did that and it's not a huge amount, maybe 10-20%. We need to
> profile and see what else it's doing. Like I said, low hanging fruit
> are aplenty.
> 
> 
>> On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:37 AM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2017-02-01 00:19, John Benediktsson wrote:
>>> Part of the startup time is calling all of our "startup hooks", of
>>> which I
>>> have 35 right now in my Factor instance, in all of these 
>>> vocabularies:
>>> 
>>> {
>>>"alien"
>>>"destructors"
>>>"alien.strings"
>>>"io.backend"
>>>"source-files.errors"
>>>"compiler.units"
>>>"vocabs"
>>>"io.files"
>>>"vocabs.loader"
>>>"command-line"
>>>"threads"
>>>"cpu.x86.features"
>>>"io.thread"
>>>"core-foundation.run-loop"
>>>"environment"
>>>"io.backend.unix:signal-pipe-thread"
>>>"io.launcher"
>>>"random.unix"
>>>"bootstrap.random"
>>>"io.sockets:ipv6-supported?"
>>>"openssl"
>>>"tools.crossref"
>>>"cocoa"
>>>"io.files.temp"
>>>"tools.deprecation"
>>>"core-foundation"
>>>"vocabs.cache"
>>>"vocabs.refresh.monitor"
>>>"opengl.gl"
>>>"opengl"
>>>"ui"
>>>"core-text.fonts"
>>>"core-text"
>>>"tools.errors.model"
>>>"ui.tools.error-list"
>>> }
>>> 
>>> I'm sure a lot of that could be delayed in smart ways to make startup
>>> time
>>> faster, that's what I meant by low hanging fruit, but also not
>>> something
>>> that anyone is working on right now.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> John.
>>> 
 On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:40 PM,  wrote:
 
> On 2017-01-30 18:14, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
> If you are on linux, you might try this very new feature:
> https://criu.org/Main_Page
> 
>> On 01/30/2017 17:29, Jim Mack wrote:
>> You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash
>> requests to it through a web page, and it would be able to 
>> accomplish
>> them locally (or remotely) and report you the results.  It would 
>> be a
>> quick round-trip cycle with great feedback and the ability to 
>> bookmark
>> commands.
>> 
>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM, > > wrote:
>> 
>>>On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
>>> It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low
>> hanging
>>> fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that
>>on my
>>> list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net
>> wrote:
 
 I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash.
>> That is
 becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
 language
 on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way
>> to
 trip
 you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I
>> know
 it's
 an old language that has to keep a lot of backward
>>compatibility and
 it
 actually still serves very well for what it was designed for,
>>as long
 as
 your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be
>> desired.
 
 Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a
>>lot of
 libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it
>> to
 your
 will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun
>>experiment to
 write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
 However
 there's a bone to be picked:
 
 $ time bash -c ''
 bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
 
 $ time factor-vm -e=''
 factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
 
 I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the
>>startup
 a
 bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down
>> to
 bash's
 startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in
>>it? I
 don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has
>>like
 nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to
>>answer
 -
 if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the
>>vocabs
 that use case would need and make all other possible
>>optimizations (if
 there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach
>>similar
 times?
 
 --
 
  Peter Nagy
 
 
 
>> 
>> 
 --
 Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
 engagin

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[John Benediktsson]

I did that and it's not a huge amount, maybe 10-20%. We need to profile and see 
what else it's doing. Like I said, low hanging fruit are aplenty. 


> On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:37 AM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> 
>> On 2017-02-01 00:19, John Benediktsson wrote:
>> Part of the startup time is calling all of our "startup hooks", of 
>> which I
>> have 35 right now in my Factor instance, in all of these vocabularies:
>> 
>> {
>>"alien"
>>"destructors"
>>"alien.strings"
>>"io.backend"
>>"source-files.errors"
>>"compiler.units"
>>"vocabs"
>>"io.files"
>>"vocabs.loader"
>>"command-line"
>>"threads"
>>"cpu.x86.features"
>>"io.thread"
>>"core-foundation.run-loop"
>>"environment"
>>"io.backend.unix:signal-pipe-thread"
>>"io.launcher"
>>"random.unix"
>>"bootstrap.random"
>>"io.sockets:ipv6-supported?"
>>"openssl"
>>"tools.crossref"
>>"cocoa"
>>"io.files.temp"
>>"tools.deprecation"
>>"core-foundation"
>>"vocabs.cache"
>>"vocabs.refresh.monitor"
>>"opengl.gl"
>>"opengl"
>>"ui"
>>"core-text.fonts"
>>"core-text"
>>"tools.errors.model"
>>"ui.tools.error-list"
>> }
>> 
>> I'm sure a lot of that could be delayed in smart ways to make startup 
>> time
>> faster, that's what I meant by low hanging fruit, but also not 
>> something
>> that anyone is working on right now.
>> 
>> Best,
>> John.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:40 PM,  wrote:
>>> 
 On 2017-01-30 18:14, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
 If you are on linux, you might try this very new feature:
 https://criu.org/Main_Page
 
> On 01/30/2017 17:29, Jim Mack wrote:
> You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash
> requests to it through a web page, and it would be able to accomplish
> them locally (or remotely) and report you the results.  It would be a
> quick round-trip cycle with great feedback and the ability to bookmark
> commands.
> 
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM,  > wrote:
> 
>>On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
>> It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low
> hanging
>> fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that
>on my
>> list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net
> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash.
> That is
>>> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
>>> language
>>> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way
> to
>>> trip
>>> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I
> know
>>> it's
>>> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward
>compatibility and
>>> it
>>> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for,
>as long
>>> as
>>> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be
> desired.
>>> 
>>> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a
>lot of
>>> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it
> to
>>> your
>>> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun
>experiment to
>>> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
>>> However
>>> there's a bone to be picked:
>>> 
>>> $ time bash -c ''
>>> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
>>> 
>>> $ time factor-vm -e=''
>>> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
>>> 
>>> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the
>startup
>>> a
>>> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down
> to
>>> bash's
>>> startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in
>it? I
>>> don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has
>like
>>> nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to
>answer
>>> -
>>> if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the
>vocabs
>>> that use case would need and make all other possible
>optimizations (if
>>> there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach
>similar
>>> times?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>>  Peter Nagy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
>>> --
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> ___
>>> Factor-talk mailing list
>>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-02-01 00:19, John Benediktsson wrote:
> Part of the startup time is calling all of our "startup hooks", of 
> which I
> have 35 right now in my Factor instance, in all of these vocabularies:
> 
> {
> "alien"
> "destructors"
> "alien.strings"
> "io.backend"
> "source-files.errors"
> "compiler.units"
> "vocabs"
> "io.files"
> "vocabs.loader"
> "command-line"
> "threads"
> "cpu.x86.features"
> "io.thread"
> "core-foundation.run-loop"
> "environment"
> "io.backend.unix:signal-pipe-thread"
> "io.launcher"
> "random.unix"
> "bootstrap.random"
> "io.sockets:ipv6-supported?"
> "openssl"
> "tools.crossref"
> "cocoa"
> "io.files.temp"
> "tools.deprecation"
> "core-foundation"
> "vocabs.cache"
> "vocabs.refresh.monitor"
> "opengl.gl"
> "opengl"
> "ui"
> "core-text.fonts"
> "core-text"
> "tools.errors.model"
> "ui.tools.error-list"
> }
> 
> I'm sure a lot of that could be delayed in smart ways to make startup 
> time
> faster, that's what I meant by low hanging fruit, but also not 
> something
> that anyone is working on right now.
> 
> Best,
> John.
> 
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:40 PM,  wrote:
> 
>> On 2017-01-30 18:14, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
>> > If you are on linux, you might try this very new feature:
>> > https://criu.org/Main_Page
>> >
>> > On 01/30/2017 17:29, Jim Mack wrote:
>> >> You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash
>> >> requests to it through a web page, and it would be able to accomplish
>> >> them locally (or remotely) and report you the results.  It would be a
>> >> quick round-trip cycle with great feedback and the ability to bookmark
>> >> commands.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM, > >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
>> >> > It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low
>> >> hanging
>> >> > fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that
>> >> on my
>> >> > list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash.
>> >> That is
>> >> >> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
>> >> >> language
>> >> >> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way
>> >> to
>> >> >> trip
>> >> >> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I
>> >> know
>> >> >> it's
>> >> >> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward
>> >> compatibility and
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for,
>> >> as long
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be
>> >> desired.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a
>> >> lot of
>> >> >> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it
>> >> to
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun
>> >> experiment to
>> >> >> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
>> >> >> However
>> >> >> there's a bone to be picked:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> $ time bash -c ''
>> >> >> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
>> >> >>
>> >> >> $ time factor-vm -e=''
>> >> >> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the
>> >> startup
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down
>> >> to
>> >> >> bash's
>> >> >> startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in
>> >> it? I
>> >> >> don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has
>> >> like
>> >> >> nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to
>> >> answer
>> >> >> -
>> >> >> if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the
>> >> vocabs
>> >> >> that use case would need and make all other possible
>> >> optimizations (if
>> >> >> there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach
>> >> similar
>> >> >> times?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> 
>> >> >>   Peter Nagy
>> >> >> 
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> 
>> --
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> ___
>> >> >> Factor-talk mailing list
>> >> >> Factor-talk@lists.sour

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[John Benediktsson]

Part of the startup time is calling all of our "startup hooks", of which I
have 35 right now in my Factor instance, in all of these vocabularies:

{
"alien"
"destructors"
"alien.strings"
"io.backend"
"source-files.errors"
"compiler.units"
"vocabs"
"io.files"
"vocabs.loader"
"command-line"
"threads"
"cpu.x86.features"
"io.thread"
"core-foundation.run-loop"
"environment"
"io.backend.unix:signal-pipe-thread"
"io.launcher"
"random.unix"
"bootstrap.random"
"io.sockets:ipv6-supported?"
"openssl"
"tools.crossref"
"cocoa"
"io.files.temp"
"tools.deprecation"
"core-foundation"
"vocabs.cache"
"vocabs.refresh.monitor"
"opengl.gl"
"opengl"
"ui"
"core-text.fonts"
"core-text"
"tools.errors.model"
"ui.tools.error-list"
}

I'm sure a lot of that could be delayed in smart ways to make startup time
faster, that's what I meant by low hanging fruit, but also not something
that anyone is working on right now.

Best,
John.

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:40 PM,  wrote:

> On 2017-01-30 18:14, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
> > If you are on linux, you might try this very new feature:
> > https://criu.org/Main_Page
> >
> > On 01/30/2017 17:29, Jim Mack wrote:
> >> You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash
> >> requests to it through a web page, and it would be able to accomplish
> >> them locally (or remotely) and report you the results.  It would be a
> >> quick round-trip cycle with great feedback and the ability to bookmark
> >> commands.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM,  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
> >> > It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low
> >> hanging
> >> > fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that
> >> on my
> >> > list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net
> >>  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash.
> >> That is
> >> >> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
> >> >> language
> >> >> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way
> >> to
> >> >> trip
> >> >> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I
> >> know
> >> >> it's
> >> >> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward
> >> compatibility and
> >> >> it
> >> >> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for,
> >> as long
> >> >> as
> >> >> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be
> >> desired.
> >> >>
> >> >> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a
> >> lot of
> >> >> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it
> >> to
> >> >> your
> >> >> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun
> >> experiment to
> >> >> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
> >> >> However
> >> >> there's a bone to be picked:
> >> >>
> >> >> $ time bash -c ''
> >> >> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
> >> >>
> >> >> $ time factor-vm -e=''
> >> >> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
> >> >>
> >> >> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the
> >> startup
> >> >> a
> >> >> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down
> >> to
> >> >> bash's
> >> >> startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in
> >> it? I
> >> >> don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has
> >> like
> >> >> nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to
> >> answer
> >> >> -
> >> >> if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the
> >> vocabs
> >> >> that use case would need and make all other possible
> >> optimizations (if
> >> >> there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach
> >> similar
> >> >> times?
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> 
> >> >>   Peter Nagy
> >> >> 
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> 
> --
> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> >> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> >> ___
> >> >> Factor-talk mailing list
> >> >> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> 
> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> >> 
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> ---

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-01-30 18:14, Timothy Hobbs wrote:
> If you are on linux, you might try this very new feature:
> https://criu.org/Main_Page
> 
> On 01/30/2017 17:29, Jim Mack wrote:
>> You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash
>> requests to it through a web page, and it would be able to accomplish
>> them locally (or remotely) and report you the results.  It would be a
>> quick round-trip cycle with great feedback and the ability to bookmark
>> commands.
>> 
>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM, > > wrote:
>> 
>> On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
>> > It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low 
>> hanging
>> > fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that
>> on my
>> > list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net
>>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash. 
>> That is
>> >> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
>> >> language
>> >> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way 
>> to
>> >> trip
>> >> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I 
>> know
>> >> it's
>> >> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward
>> compatibility and
>> >> it
>> >> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for,
>> as long
>> >> as
>> >> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be 
>> desired.
>> >>
>> >> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a
>> lot of
>> >> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it 
>> to
>> >> your
>> >> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun
>> experiment to
>> >> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
>> >> However
>> >> there's a bone to be picked:
>> >>
>> >> $ time bash -c ''
>> >> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
>> >>
>> >> $ time factor-vm -e=''
>> >> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
>> >>
>> >> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the
>> startup
>> >> a
>> >> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down 
>> to
>> >> bash's
>> >> startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in
>> it? I
>> >> don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has
>> like
>> >> nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to
>> answer
>> >> -
>> >> if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the
>> vocabs
>> >> that use case would need and make all other possible
>> optimizations (if
>> >> there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach
>> similar
>> >> times?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> 
>> >>   Peter Nagy
>> >> 
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> --
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> ___
>> >> Factor-talk mailing list
>> >> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> 
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>> 
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> --
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > ___
>> > Factor-talk mailing list
>> > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> 
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>> 
>> 
>> Hi John,
>> 
>> you think you can reach similar startup times? That would be 
>> really
>> cool. I guess your todo list is rather long though.
>> 
>> As a side note, are there other concatenative languages you know I
>> could
>> look at?
>> 
>> --
>> 
>>Peter Nagy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
>> Factor-talk mailing list
>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> 
>> https://

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Timothy Hobbs]

If you are on linux, you might try this very new feature:
https://criu.org/Main_Page

On 01/30/2017 17:29, Jim Mack wrote:
> You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash
> requests to it through a web page, and it would be able to accomplish
> them locally (or remotely) and report you the results.  It would be a
> quick round-trip cycle with great feedback and the ability to bookmark
> commands.
>
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM,  > wrote:
>
> On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
> > It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low hanging
> > fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that
> on my
> > list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net
>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash. That is
> >> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
> >> language
> >> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way to
> >> trip
> >> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I know
> >> it's
> >> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward
> compatibility and
> >> it
> >> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for,
> as long
> >> as
> >> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be desired.
> >>
> >> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a
> lot of
> >> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it to
> >> your
> >> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun
> experiment to
> >> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
> >> However
> >> there's a bone to be picked:
> >>
> >> $ time bash -c ''
> >> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
> >>
> >> $ time factor-vm -e=''
> >> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
> >>
> >> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the
> startup
> >> a
> >> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down to
> >> bash's
> >> startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in
> it? I
> >> don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has
> like
> >> nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to
> answer
> >> -
> >> if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the
> vocabs
> >> that use case would need and make all other possible
> optimizations (if
> >> there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach
> similar
> >> times?
> >>
> >> --
> >> 
> >>   Peter Nagy
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> 
> --
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> ___
> >> Factor-talk mailing list
> >> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> 
> >
> >
> 
> --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
> > Factor-talk mailing list
> > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> 
>
> Hi John,
>
> you think you can reach similar startup times? That would be really
> cool. I guess your todo list is rather long though.
>
> As a side note, are there other concatenative languages you know I
> could
> look at?
>
> --
> 
>Peter Nagy
> 
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Factor-talk mailing list
> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> 
>
>
>
>
> --
> Check o

Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[Jim Mack]

You could also set up factor as a local web server, and send bash requests
to it through a web page, and it would be able to accomplish them locally
(or remotely) and report you the results.  It would be a quick round-trip
cycle with great feedback and the ability to bookmark commands.

On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM,  wrote:

> On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
> > It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low hanging
> > fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that on my
> > list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> >>
> >> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash. That is
> >> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough
> >> language
> >> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way to
> >> trip
> >> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I know
> >> it's
> >> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward compatibility and
> >> it
> >> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for, as long
> >> as
> >> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be desired.
> >>
> >> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a lot of
> >> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it to
> >> your
> >> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun experiment to
> >> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting.
> >> However
> >> there's a bone to be picked:
> >>
> >> $ time bash -c ''
> >> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
> >>
> >> $ time factor-vm -e=''
> >> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
> >>
> >> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the startup
> >> a
> >> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down to
> >> bash's
> >> startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in it? I
> >> don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has like
> >> nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to answer
> >> -
> >> if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the vocabs
> >> that use case would need and make all other possible optimizations (if
> >> there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach similar
> >> times?
> >>
> >> --
> >> 
> >>   Peter Nagy
> >> 
> >>
> >> 
> --
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> ___
> >> Factor-talk mailing list
> >> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> >
> > 
> --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
> > Factor-talk mailing list
> > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>
> Hi John,
>
> you think you can reach similar startup times? That would be really
> cool. I guess your todo list is rather long though.
>
> As a side note, are there other concatenative languages you know I could
> look at?
>
> --
> 
>Peter Nagy
> 
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Factor-talk mailing list
> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
>
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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[petern]

On 2017-01-29 16:20, John Benediktsson wrote:
> It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low hanging
> fruits if we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that on my
> list, unless someone looks into it sooner.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
>> 
>> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash. That is
>> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough 
>> language
>> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way to 
>> trip
>> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I know 
>> it's
>> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward compatibility and 
>> it
>> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for, as long 
>> as
>> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be desired.
>> 
>> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a lot of
>> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it to 
>> your
>> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun experiment to
>> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting. 
>> However
>> there's a bone to be picked:
>> 
>> $ time bash -c ''
>> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
>> 
>> $ time factor-vm -e=''
>> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
>> 
>> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the startup 
>> a
>> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down to 
>> bash's
>> startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in it? I
>> don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has like
>> nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to answer 
>> -
>> if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the vocabs
>> that use case would need and make all other possible optimizations (if
>> there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach similar
>> times?
>> 
>> --
>> 
>>   Peter Nagy
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
>> Factor-talk mailing list
>> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Factor-talk mailing list
> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk

Hi John,

you think you can reach similar startup times? That would be really 
cool. I guess your todo list is rather long though.

As a side note, are there other concatenative languages you know I could 
look at?

-- 

   Peter Nagy


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Re: [Factor-talk] Startup time

[John Benediktsson]

It would be nice to improve startup time. I imagine some low hanging fruits if 
we looked deeply into it. I'll make a note to get that on my list, unless 
someone looks into it sooner. 



> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:25 PM, pet...@riseup.net wrote:
> 
> I spend a lot of time writing small scripts, often in bash. That is 
> becoming a more and more painful task as bash is a nice-enough language 
> on the first look but in the end it seems to go out of it's way to trip 
> you up with every character you type. I don't mean to rant, I know it's 
> an old language that has to keep a lot of backward compatibility and it 
> actually still serves very well for what it was designed for, as long as 
> your script stays <100 lines. Still, there's a lot to be desired.
> 
> Factor is a cool language, it's very expressive, mature, has a lot of 
> libraries and has all sorts of tricks up its sleaves to bend it to your 
> will (much like lisp in that regard). It would be a fun experiment to 
> write a library or EDSL (embedded DSL) for bash-like scripting. However 
> there's a bone to be picked:
> 
> $ time bash -c ''
> bash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 94% cpu 0.004 total
> 
> $ time factor-vm -e=''
> factor-vm -e=''  0.12s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 0.178 total
> 
> I know one can create a custom image and maybe cut down on the startup a 
> bit, but my question is - would it be possible to cut it down to bash's 
> startup time *and* still have all the necessary vocabularies in it? I 
> don't want to know the startup time with a small image that has like 
> nothing in it, I can quickly test that myself. I'd need help to answer - 
> if you imagine the use case I'm talking about, include all the vocabs 
> that use case would need and make all other possible optimizations (if 
> there are) without sacrificing too much, can the startup reach similar 
> times?
> 
> -- 
> 
>   Peter Nagy
> 
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Factor-talk mailing list
> Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk

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