[FairfieldLife] Re: Consciousness Is The Ultimate Reality, was Belief in God is a form of mental illness
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : So you're saying that an enlightened person loses the ability to descriminate between a flower and a duck? Or loses the ability to name things because they see the fundamental unity in the diversity? That reads like you've responded to the wrong post. What are you expecting as a reward for all this meditation? What I mean is that things don't change a whole bunch. Sure you get a bit more of something as well as what you've got now but it doesn't change what your senses are capable of perceiving. And this fundamental unity may just be a fancy name for a type of perceptive change similar to certain hallucinogenic states. I've experienced both, the TM one is nice but fundamental is stretching it as it isn't giving you any secret knowledge, just presenting what we all get a bit differently. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : The way Maharishi explained the illusion of Maya is rather different than what a lot of people understand. Consciousness is not an illusion, nor is what most people call reality. The illusion is that there is a fundamental difference between them. This is the veil of maya: a thin, non-existent membrane that separates the two which is merely an artifact of our perception of things based on having a nervous system. Full enlightenment is when you can full see on both sides of that non-existent veil. I'll go along with that, except for the bit about seeing everything on both sides after enlightenment. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, inmadison@... wrote : This may be above my pay-grade, but if one is a transcendentalist/idealist, then belief in classic cause and effect is incompatible with that belief . . . or one has to significantly qualify what is meant by cause and effect. Many folks who refer to them selves as transcendentalists/idealists are actually dualists, or simply rebranded materialists (I am not suggesting you are) Regarding the 'illusion' - when you pick up an object, like an apple for example, what does your experience tell you?When I pick up an apple, I see it's color and shape, I feel the texture and if pressed with a fingernail - I can sense the sticky juice, I taste the tart sweetness . . . and I remember apple pies and so forth. My experience of the apple is passionate and lively - Where is the illusion? Toss in more awareness and all you get is more passion - there is no illusion. 'Illusion' is just India of old - we don't need no stinking illusion in the 21st century.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system. But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these experiences of unboundedness. That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps everything else. I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the first place. Most religions have never tried to do this. They just make declarations like Maharishi did, along the lines of The purpose of life is to achieve these experiences of unboundedness, which then become dogma and are repeated and believed by successive generations of believers. But he never said WHY these experiences were supposedly worth achieving. Start now...what do YOU see as the VALUE of these experiences of unboundedness you speak of? If you can't establish that they *have* a value, then why do we need a system of *any* kind to achieve them? Systems already exist, but they are inefficient and quirky, and at best we just stumble into them. If the value to the individual is great enough, they will find a way. What was of value to me though, might not be of value to another. I have found these experiences valuable... HOW? I cannot help but notice that you have avoided my question. DEFINE this value that you have found in these experiences of unboundedness. How *exactly* did they improve your life (or anyone else's life), in objective terms? , but it has also been very interesting how they have ultimately played out for me. Sam Harris is also promoting those experiences in his new book Waking Up, a Guide to Spirituality without Religion. And, like you, without presenting a convincing reason WHY they might be valuable. These experiences can be fantastic, one can get attached to having them but as to how they can be interpreted is another question. What you are told in a particular tradition might not be a particularly good way to describe them if they tend to reinforce an impacted belief system. My view, at the moment, is the nervous system is relieving itself of something, but it is difficult to tell just what that something is. I would say the interesting spiritual experiences are just artefacts of the system normalising itself, so they are not really of real import. Then why construct a system to give people these experiences? If one is seeking heaven and trying to avoid hell, one is missing the point of the search, for the point is to discover the commonality of both, and avoid being sucked either way. WHY is anyone seeking *either*? And where did you make the connection between these experiences of unboundedness and heaven or hell? For me as time went on such experiences tended to damp out, everything kind of flattened out, until one day on a walk there was this shift in which the world, as it always had been, was identical with what I had been seeking. I'm not sure you get my point. You, like Sam Harris, are talking about finding alternative -- theoretically better or more benign -- methods of giving people these experiences of unboundedness. But it strikes me that neither of you have ever taken a step back and told us WHY you or anyone else really *wants* these experiences in the first place, and more important, what objective *value* these experiences bring to your life or to the lives of others. I *understand* what you're saying...I think. I'm just pointing out that you and Harris both seem to sound as if you're inside a herd of lemmings presenting options for a new direction in which to run, without ever making a case for WHY you are running in the first place. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] FFL Hating Turq and Belief in God is a form of mental illness
There are some who might suggest that Judy realizing her fantasy of hooking up with Robin in Toronto would *BE* JR's predicted horrible accident. :-) :-) :-) From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] FFL Hating Turq and Belief in God is a form of mental illness Is it possible, she may have found true love in Toronto? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You forget, JR claimed that according to Judy's jyotish she had met with some horrible accident. From: dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 9:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] FFL Hating Turq and Belief in God is a form of mental illness ? “..the role of principle Barry hater - and you have to admire the gusto!” No, we all rate posts as we may read them on spectrum; from posts that make: Observations, to suggestions, to criticism, by negativity and tone, to apostasy, thence to active anger and hating. In reading these posts I feel Ann through reading the individual postings here simply lost some faith more in Turq by her better understanding of his writing and approach here after reading the Lenz book that was posted here. It is that simple also. I always read the Turq and feel he has a valid perspective from having 'been there' at a time, by his contrast with spiritual experience like Fleet's, and now I feel I have an even better understanding of him as a critic from this recent Freddy Lenz/Rama thread on FFL. Context often is everything. That is something that is particularly good about the writing on FFL, that it often can render down what is truth. Judy was very much part of that process when she was here. Ann also helps with that by virtue of her mind about things and by life experience as context about things here. Some here have been pricks and Ann may be prickly towards people at times. Rick seems to welcome almost everyone contributing to the related topics of FairfieldLife. I thank Rick for that. Public forum is often one of the best checks against theocratic tyranny. There was an amazing open meeting last night in meditating Fairfield where everything was on the table in front of a bunch of the higher-up apparatchiks of the new TM movement. For upward pressures on the organization being beyond theocratic control, FFL has long been a part of the calculus of the meditating Fairfield communal culture. There is a lot of change going on inside right now by virtue of the attention of public forum. Turq in his way has been part of that for years by force of his experience, personality and writing. I would miss him if he gets entirely hounded or completely embarrassed off of this forum. In the same way I feel it was really mean the way they hounded Judy personally off this list and out of this community. Rick and the moderators should have stopped that before the end. I would hope we could all be kinder with one another in process. Jai Guru Dev, -Buck in the Dome
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Well said Barry - and I agree with every word From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system. But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these experiences of unboundedness. That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps everything else. I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the first place. Most religions have never tried to do this. They just make declarations like Maharishi did, along the lines of The purpose of life is to achieve these experiences of unboundedness, which then become dogma and are repeated and believed by successive generations of believers. But he never said WHY these experiences were supposedly worth achieving. Start now...what do YOU see as the VALUE of these experiences of unboundedness you speak of? If you can't establish that they *have* a value, then why do we need a system of *any* kind to achieve them? Systems already exist, but they are inefficient and quirky, and at best we just stumble into them. If the value to the individual is great enough, they will find a way. What was of value to me though, might not be of value to another. I have found these experiences valuable... HOW? I cannot help but notice that you have avoided my question. DEFINE this value that you have found in these experiences of unboundedness. How *exactly* did they improve your life (or anyone else's life), in objective terms? , but it has also been very interesting how they have ultimately played out for me. Sam Harris is also promoting those experiences in his new book Waking Up, a Guide to Spirituality without Religion. And, like you, without presenting a convincing reason WHY they might be valuable. These experiences can be fantastic, one can get attached to having them but as to how they can be interpreted is another question. What you are told in a particular tradition might not be a particularly good way to describe them if they tend to reinforce an impacted belief system. My view, at the moment, is the nervous system is relieving itself of something, but it is difficult to tell just what that something is. I would say the interesting spiritual experiences are just artefacts of the system normalising itself, so they are not really of real import. Then why construct a system to give people these experiences? If one is seeking heaven and trying to avoid hell, one is missing the point of the search, for the point is to discover the commonality of both, and avoid being sucked either way. WHY is anyone seeking *either*? And where did you make the connection between these experiences of unboundedness and heaven or hell? For me as time went on such experiences tended to damp out, everything kind of flattened out, until one day on a walk there was this shift in which the world, as it always had been, was identical with what I had been seeking. I'm not sure you get my point. You, like Sam Harris, are talking about finding alternative -- theoretically better or more benign -- methods of giving people these experiences of unboundedness. But it strikes me that neither of you have ever taken a step back and told us WHY you or anyone else really *wants* these experiences in the first place, and more important, what objective *value* these experiences bring to your life or to the lives of others. I *understand* what you're saying...I think. I'm just pointing out that you and Harris both seem to sound as if you're inside a herd of lemmings presenting options for a new direction in which to run, without ever making a case for WHY you are running in the first place. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness Well said Barry - and I agree with every word It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable. I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be. Most teachers or seekers just *assume* that these experiences they have or claim to have had are valuable, but when called upon to do so, they can't really produce any strong arguments for WHY they are valuable, or WHAT that supposed value is. I'm suggesting that this oversight is epidemic in the world of spiritual practices, the elephant in the room that no one ever talks about. The people promoting these practices just *assume* that these experiences they're having or seeking are *worth* having or seeking, and debate the supposedly best ways of achieving them. But I don't know of very many who have taken that step back, beyond the assumption, and have tried to make a case for WHY they're so intent on achieving these things. What is it that they hope to achieve, and WHY would others want to do so? Answers such as, Well, I want to have these experiences because Jim Flanegin said that I would be a low-vibe slime until I had them the way he has do not count. :-) :-) :-) It's the same problem I see with religion in general. The people urging others to join their religions don't seem to ever offer any real-world, payoff-in-this-lifetime reasons for doing so. They just *assume* that there is a payoff, and try to bluff their way through without ever specifying what it is. Millions and millions of seekers over the ages, and almost none of them have ever come up with a real *value* for all this seeking they're devoting their lives to. I'm NOT suggesting that there isn't one, just pointing out that no one ever seems to talk about it if there is. From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system. But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these experiences of unboundedness. That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps everything else. I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the first place. Most religions have never tried to do this. They just make declarations like Maharishi did, along the lines of The purpose of life is to achieve these experiences of unboundedness, which then become dogma and are repeated and believed by successive generations of believers. But he never said WHY these experiences were supposedly worth achieving. Start now...what do YOU see as the VALUE of these experiences of unboundedness you speak of? If you can't establish that they *have* a value, then why do we need a system of *any* kind to achieve them? Systems already exist, but they are inefficient and quirky, and at best we just stumble into them. If the value to the individual is great enough, they will find a way. What was of value to me though, might not be of value to another. I have found these experiences valuable... HOW? I cannot help but notice that you have avoided my question. DEFINE this value that you have found in these experiences of unboundedness. How *exactly* did they improve your life (or anyone else's life), in objective terms? , but it has also been very interesting how they have ultimately played out for me. Sam Harris is also promoting those experiences in his new book Waking Up, a Guide to Spirituality without Religion. And, like you, without presenting a convincing reason WHY they might be valuable. These experiences can be fantastic, one can get attached to having them but as to how they can be interpreted is another question. What you are told in a particular tradition might not be a particularly good way to describe them if
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Consciousness Is The Ultimate Reality, was Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Lawson, there's a wonderful tape in which someone asks Maharishi if in Unity a
person could marry anyone. Maharishi laughs and then explains that differences
don't disappear in Unity. It's just that they no longer dominate awareness.
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:43 PM, lengli...@cox.net
[FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
So you're saying that an enlightened person loses the ability to
descriminate between a flower and a duck?
Or loses the ability to name things because they see the fundamental unity in
the diversity?
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote :
The way Maharishi explained the illusion of Maya is rather different than
what a lot of people understand.
Consciousness is not an illusion, nor is what most people call reality.
The illusion is that there is a fundamental difference between them.
This is the veil of maya: a thin, non-existent membrane that separates the
two which is merely an artifact of our perception of things based on having a
nervous system. Full enlightenment is when you can full see on both sides of
that non-existent veil.
I'll go along with that, except for the bit about seeing everything on both
sides after enlightenment.
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, inmadison@... wrote :
This may be above my pay-grade, but if one is a transcendentalist/idealist,
then belief in classic cause and effect is incompatible with that belief . . .
or one has to significantly qualify what is meant by cause and effect. Many
folks who refer to them selves as transcendentalists/idealists are actually
dualists, or simply rebranded materialists (I am not suggesting you are)
Regarding the 'illusion' - when you pick up an object, like an apple for
example, what does your experience tell you? When I pick up an apple, I see
it's color and shape, I feel the texture and if pressed with a fingernail - I
can sense the sticky juice, I taste the tart sweetness . . . and I remember
apple pies and so forth. My experience of the apple is passionate and lively -
Where is the illusion? Toss in more awareness and all you get is more passion
- there is no illusion. 'Illusion' is just India of old - we don't need no
stinking illusion in the 21st century. #yiv4918074001 #yiv4918074001 --
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... Well said Barry - and I agree with every word --- turquoiseb@... wrote : It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable. I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be. It depends on what one wants in life. Let's say that there are basicaly two paths, left path and right path. If the left path is a one way trip, the right path is cyclical trip. The BG mentions it as sun path and moon path. Most teachers or seekers just *assume* that these experiences they have or claim to have had are valuable, but when called upon to do so, they can't really produce any strong arguments for WHY they are valuable, or WHAT that supposed value is. I'm suggesting that this oversight is epidemic in the world of spiritual practices, the elephant in the room that no one ever talks about. The people promoting these practices just *assume* that these experiences they're having or seeking are *worth* having or seeking, and debate the supposedly best ways of achieving them. But I don't know of very many who have taken that step back, beyond the assumption, and have tried to make a case for WHY they're so intent on achieving these things. What is it that they hope to achieve, and WHY would others want to do so? Answers such as, Well, I want to have these experiences because Jim Flanegin said that I would be a low-vibe slime until I had them the way he has do not count. :-) :-) :-) It's the same problem I see with religion in general. The people urging others to join their religions don't seem to ever offer any real-world, payoff-in-this-lifetime reasons for doing so. They just *assume* that there is a payoff, and try to bluff their way through without ever specifying what it is. Millions and millions of seekers over the ages, and almost none of them have ever come up with a real *value* for all this seeking they're devoting their lives to. I'm NOT suggesting that there isn't one, just pointing out that no one ever seems to talk about it if there is.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
When thinking about why people value certain experiences and do certain activities, I like Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a guideline. IOW, once certain basic needs are met, then a person seeks to satisfy additional needs. Which might not be higher but which might simply involve activating more of the brain. Could it be that we're simply compelled by neural pathways in our brain that want to be activated? Or are we simply physical organisms seeking homeostatis all the time? Today is Mahalakshmi day. There's a big celebration in the Dome. I haven't decided whether I will go or not. Autumn has been so beautiful here. I feel happy enough just glancing up from the computer once and a while, out the window to the trees and the sky, walking to the post office, doing my everyday tasks. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't need to go to the Dome and hopefully get blessings from Mahalakshmi in the form of more money and then feel happier. I am already feeling happy enough. Much much gratitude... On Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:00 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness Well said Barry - and I agree with every word It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable. I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be. Most teachers or seekers just *assume* that these experiences they have or claim to have had are valuable, but when called upon to do so, they can't really produce any strong arguments for WHY they are valuable, or WHAT that supposed value is. I'm suggesting that this oversight is epidemic in the world of spiritual practices, the elephant in the room that no one ever talks about. The people promoting these practices just *assume* that these experiences they're having or seeking are *worth* having or seeking, and debate the supposedly best ways of achieving them. But I don't know of very many who have taken that step back, beyond the assumption, and have tried to make a case for WHY they're so intent on achieving these things. What is it that they hope to achieve, and WHY would others want to do so? Answers such as, Well, I want to have these experiences because Jim Flanegin said that I would be a low-vibe slime until I had them the way he has do not count. :-) :-) :-) It's the same problem I see with religion in general. The people urging others to join their religions don't seem to ever offer any real-world, payoff-in-this-lifetime reasons for doing so. They just *assume* that there is a payoff, and try to bluff their way through without ever specifying what it is. Millions and millions of seekers over the ages, and almost none of them have ever come up with a real *value* for all this seeking they're devoting their lives to. I'm NOT suggesting that there isn't one, just pointing out that no one ever seems to talk about it if there is. From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system. But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these experiences of unboundedness. That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps everything else. I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the first place. Most religions have never tried to do this. They just make declarations like Maharishi did, along the lines of The purpose of life is to achieve these experiences of unboundedness, which then become dogma and are repeated and believed by successive generations of believers. But he never said WHY these experiences were supposedly worth achieving. Start now...what do YOU see as the VALUE of these experiences of unboundedness you speak of? If you can't
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
On 10/23/2014 3:33 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: ** For me as time went on such experiences tended to damp out, everything kind of flattened out, until one day on a walk there was this shift in which the world, as it always had been, was identical with what I had been seeking. * *I'm not sure you get my point. You, like Sam Harris, are talking about finding alternative -- theoretically better or more benign -- methods of giving people these experiences of unboundedness. But it strikes me that neither of you have ever taken a step back and told us WHY you or anyone else really *wants* these experiences in the first place, and more important, what objective *value* these experiences bring to your life or to the lives of others. I *understand* what you're saying...I think. I'm just pointing out that you and Harris both seem to sound as if you're inside a herd of lemmings presenting options for a new direction in which to run, without ever making a case for WHY you are running in the first place. :-) /Maybe we should review//:// // //The purpose of yoga, both Buddhist and Hindu, is to liberate man from suffering; so that they do not have to be reincarnated again and bound by karma. Everyone already knows this. Sam Harris already told you this - didn't you read his book? 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by Sam Harris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 ///
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
On 10/23/2014 5:04 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Well said Barry - and I agree with every word /You failed to answer Barry's main question: what is the value of the spiritual life?/ *From:* TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:33 AM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness *From:* Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com * From:* TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *From:* anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system. But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these experiences of unboundedness. That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps everything else. I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the first place. Most religions have never tried to do this. They just make declarations like Maharishi did, along the lines of The purpose of life is to achieve these experiences of unboundedness, which then become dogma and are repeated and believed by successive generations of believers. But he never said WHY these experiences were supposedly worth achieving. Start now...what do YOU see as the VALUE of these experiences of unboundedness you speak of? If you can't establish that they *have* a value, then why do we need a system of *any* kind to achieve them? *Systems already exist, but they are inefficient and quirky, and at best we just stumble into them. If the value to the individual is great enough, they will find a way. What was of value to me though, might not be of value to another. * I have found these experiences valuable... HOW? I cannot help but notice that you have avoided my question. DEFINE this value that you have found in these experiences of unboundedness. How *exactly* did they improve your life (or anyone else's life), in objective terms? , but it has also been very interesting how they have ultimately played out for me. Sam Harris is also promoting those experiences in his new book Waking Up, a Guide to Spirituality without Religion. And, like you, without presenting a convincing reason WHY they might be valuable. These experiences can be fantastic, one can get attached to having them but as to how they can be interpreted is another question. What you are told in a particular tradition might not be a particularly good way to describe them if they tend to reinforce an impacted belief system. My view, at the moment, is the nervous system is relieving itself of something, but it is difficult to tell just what that something is. I would say the interesting spiritual experiences are just artefacts of the system normalising itself, so they are not really of real import. Then why construct a system to give people these experiences? If one is seeking heaven and trying to avoid hell, one is missing the point of the search, for the point is to discover the commonality of both, and avoid being sucked either way. WHY is anyone seeking *either*? And where did you make the connection between these experiences of unboundedness and heaven or hell? For me as time went on such experiences tended to damp out, everything kind of flattened out, until one day on a walk there was this shift in which the world, as it always had been, was identical with what I had been seeking. * *I'm not sure you get my point. You, like Sam Harris, are talking about finding alternative -- theoretically better or more benign -- methods of giving people these experiences of unboundedness. But it strikes me that neither of you have ever taken a step back and told us WHY you or anyone else really *wants* these experiences in the first place, and more important, what objective *value* these experiences bring to your life or to the lives of others. I *understand* what you're saying...I think. I'm just pointing out that you and Harris both seem to sound as if you're inside a herd of lemmings presenting options for a new direction in which to run, without ever making a case for WHY you are running in the first place. :-) * *
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Well said Barry - and I agree with every word On 10/23/2014 5:59 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable. I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be. /The answer is simple: you should know the truth and the truth will set you free from ignorance. We are either free or we are bound. If free, there is no need for //yoga; if bound by what means can we free ourselves?// // //It looks like we are back to Buddhism 101. In over forty years of studying with teachers and practicing you still don't seem to fully understand what it is you have been //seeking. So, let's start from the very beginning: //Buddhism is a non-theistic religion of beliefs and practices largely based on the teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, who is commonly known as the historical Buddha, the awakened one, the awakened one Sam Harris was talking about in his recent book, Waking Up. // // //According to Buddhist tradition, the Buddha lived and taught in the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent sometime between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE. He is recognized by Buddhists as an awakened or enlightened teacher who shared his insights to help sentient beings end their suffering from - karma (from Sanskrit: action, work) is the force that drives samsara—the cycle of suffering and rebirth for each being.// // //Works cited:// // //Buddhism from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition.// //http://www.britannica.com/// // //Harvey, Introduction to Buddhism, p. 40/ Most teachers or seekers just *assume* that these experiences they have or claim to have had are valuable, but when called upon to do so, they can't really produce any strong arguments for WHY they are valuable, or WHAT that supposed value is. I'm suggesting that this oversight is epidemic in the world of spiritual practices, the elephant in the room that no one ever talks about. The people promoting these practices just *assume* that these experiences they're having or seeking are *worth* having or seeking, and debate the supposedly best ways of achieving them. But I don't know of very many who have taken that step back, beyond the assumption, and have tried to make a case for WHY they're so intent on achieving these things. What is it that they hope to achieve, and WHY would others want to do so? /Non sequitur. I already answered this question in a previous post./ Answers such as, Well, I want to have these experiences because Jim Flanegin said that I would be a low-vibe slime until I had them the way he has do not count. :-) :-) :-) /Non sequitur. / It's the same problem I see with religion in general. The people urging others to join their religions don't seem to ever offer any real-world, payoff-in-this-lifetime reasons for doing so. They just *assume* that there is a payoff, and try to bluff their way through without ever specifying what it is. Millions and millions of seekers over the ages, and almost none of them have ever come up with a real *value* for all this seeking they're devoting their lives to. I'm NOT suggesting that there isn't one, just pointing out that no one ever seems to talk about it if there is. /Non sequitur.//I already rebutted this statement in a previous post./
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
You are very good at quoting scripture and contents of text books (and there is a value to that), but when you look to the honesty of your moment to moment experience - What do you find? Put aside traditions and ancient wisdom - they are not relevant today - today its What are you bringing to the table? BTW, you don't have to tell us . . .
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Tis the season of the witch
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : I don't have much in the way of movies to recommend this month because most all I have been watching have been horror films. That's because I hang out with a group on a forum that tries to watch a horror film each night in October to celebrate 31 Days of Halloween. Most films I watch would not be for the faint of heart here. But one from Turq's former country of residence, Spain, is actually more of a dark comedy and called Witching and Bitching. Sounds like FFL doesn't it? But it's about a heist in Madrid and how the crooks escape to a small town and learn it is run by witches. Lots of comedy of errors. It's on Netflix WI. I decided to look into this one and discovered it was by Alex de la Iglesia, considered one of the enfant terrible directors of Spain. I'd seen one of his earlier films in English, The Oxford Murders, and loved it, so I gave this one a try. What you said about it was true, but you didn't convey how FUNNY it was, and how much of a commentary on eternal male-female stereotypes of each other it was. Iglesia has been compared (favorably) with Robert Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino, and now I see why. Rated SO not for Buck, and probably not for many others here. But for the twisted few, it's a real gas...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
On 10/23/2014 7:14 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Could it be that we're simply compelled by neural pathways in our brain that want to be activated? /According to MMY it is the nature of the mind to want to enjoy - it's only natural for anyone to want to be free from suffering. He said that the way into bliss is the way out of suffering.// // //So, nobody wants to suffer but in fact, suffering is a given in life: we all suffer from repeated birth, old age, sickness and eventual death. The truth is that we are all bound by karma, either from this life or from a previous life. There is no exception to karma, from the highest god or deva down to a single blade of grass. // // //The idea behind yoga is to provide the ideal opportunity for awakening to the truth of how things really are. If you know the truth you will be free. Yoga is immortality and freedom. // // //According to yoga theory, you build up samskaras due to karma - the actions in this life and in your past lives. You can remove the samskaras through tapas - burning off the accumulated layers of past actions through meditation and other yoga practices. But a practice will not remove all the samskaras - even for an accomplished yogi there's always a trace of karma because they still maintain a human body with air, water, and food, coarse or fine, and thoughts, volitions and desires. // // //A siddha yogi is one who has realized the truth and is totally free while still in living in a human body, a jivan-mukti - for them there is no return; everything has been done that needs to be done; gone to the other shore; totally gone. No come back no more.//Free./ On Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:00 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: *From:* Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:04 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness Well said Barry - and I agree with every word It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable. I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
On 10/23/2014 9:02 AM, inmadi...@hotmail.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: You are very good at quoting scripture and contents of text books (and there is a value to that), but when you look to the honesty of your moment to moment experience - What do you find? /Teachers and textbooks are like fingers pointing at the moon - they are valid means of knowledge - we all depend on verbal testimony for most of our understanding. SBS compared enlightenment to Light (Brahman). The Absolute is already there; it doesn't require anything else to illuminate it because it is an already established fact. The enlightened state is described in the Indian rice analogy: you can remove the chaff and it's still rice paddy. All you have to do is isolate the relative from the absolute and be free. Just don't fall into the false belief that the pointing finger is the moon itself./ Put aside traditions and ancient wisdom - they are not relevant today /In this day and age hardly anyone reads or understands the Sanskrit scriptures. The only hope for enlightenment in this age of Kali is to practice karma yoga - giving up the fruits of your labor for the common good and seeking out a qualified teacher so you can work out your karma with diligence. / What are you bringing to the table? /As in a pond, when its influx of water has been blocked, dries up gradually through evaporation and use, so karmic matter, which has been acquired through millions of lives, is erased through yoga; there is no further unflux - Wallah Sutra, I.4/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Richard, your posts remind me of how much I appreciate David Deida and other
teachers who suggest that the old ways of liberation are best suited to
masculine physiologies.
He also compares a soul to the light coming in from a stained glass window,
which is the body. Via yoga practices we attempt to clean the dirt off the
window. Via therapy we attempt to fix the cracks in the glass.
But at a certain point, we realize we are the light. End of cleaning and fixing!
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:11 AM, 'Richard J. Williams'
pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
On 10/23/2014 7:14 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Could it be that we're simply compelled by neural pathways in our brain that
want to be activated?
According to MMY it is the nature of the mind to want to enjoy - it's only
natural for anyone to want to be free from suffering. He said that the way
into bliss is the way out of suffering.
So, nobody wants to suffer but in fact, suffering is a given in life: we all
suffer from repeated birth, old age, sickness and eventual death. The truth is
that we are all bound by karma, either from this life or from a previous life.
There is no exception to karma, from the highest god or deva down to a single
blade of grass.
The idea behind yoga is to provide the ideal opportunity for awakening to the
truth of how things really are. If you know the truth you will be free. Yoga is
immortality and freedom.
According to yoga theory, you build up samskaras due to karma - the actions in
this life and in your past lives. You can remove the samskaras through tapas -
burning off the accumulated layers of past actions through meditation and
other yoga practices. But a practice will not remove all the samskaras - even
for an accomplished yogi there's always a trace of karma because they still
maintain a human body with air, water, and food, coarse or fine, and thoughts,
volitions and desires.
A siddha yogi is one who has realized the truth and is totally free while
still in living in a human body, a jivan-mukti - for them there is no return;
everything has been done that needs to be done; gone to the other shore;
totally gone. No come back no more. Free.
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:00 AM, TurquoiseBee
turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Well said Barry - and I agree with every word
It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable.
I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to
the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Richard, I also appreciate Maharishi's distinction between and enlightened
person and an enlightened teacher. The person maybe popped into enlightenment
while eating a strawberry. So then he or she teaches the strawberry eating
technique.
OTOH, an enlightened teacher has such a perspective that he or she can see
exactly where you are in your journey. And can genuinely help you along your
path.
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:25 AM, 'Richard J. Williams'
pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
On 10/23/2014 9:02 AM, inmadi...@hotmail.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
You are very good at quoting scripture and contents of text books (and there is
a value to that), but when you look to the honesty of your moment to moment
experience - What do you find?
Teachers and textbooks are like fingers pointing at the moon - they are valid
means of knowledge - we all depend on verbal testimony for most of our
understanding. SBS compared enlightenment to Light (Brahman). The Absolute is
already there; it doesn't require anything else to illuminate it because it is
an already established fact. The enlightened state is described in the Indian
rice analogy: you can remove the chaff and it's still rice paddy. All you have
to do is isolate the relative from the absolute and be free. Just don't fall
into the false belief that the pointing finger is the moon itself.
Put aside traditions and ancient wisdom - they are not relevant today
In this day and age hardly anyone reads or understands the Sanskrit
scriptures. The only hope for enlightenment in this age of Kali is to practice
karma yoga - giving up the fruits of your labor for the common good and seeking
out a qualified teacher so you can work out your karma with diligence.
What are you bringing to the table?
As in a pond, when its influx of water has been blocked, dries up gradually
through evaporation and use, so karmic matter, which has been acquired through
millions of lives, is erased through yoga; there is no further unflux - Wallah
Sutra, I.4
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
I think you hit on something here I never considered. Social interaction. I do not think there is any objective measure by which one considers such experiences valuable. There are certain things I like, certain things I do not, and I go for the ones I like. While I do not know why, those things I like I sometimes like to share with others. A piece of music, a movie. Why did you post about Bruce Cockburn's music, his book? I am not sure there is any reliable objective measure why one likes something other than a general propensity to avoid pain and to maintain comfort. Now if you recall Maharishi said the mind seeks a greater field of happiness. Because he was hawking TM, he skewed the concept to correspond with his metaphysic (the transcendental field, the unified field). You do not need a field. Basically I think it comes down to you like stuff, and don't like other stuff. The rationalisations come later. If there is any objective evidence for that previous sentence it might be split brain experiments. When one side of the brain of people with this condition are asked to explain why the other side of the body did something, it makes up an explanation. The whole spiritual trip is a post hoc explanation fabricated to explain why something you like, in this case some kind of meditation for example, or the experience that is supposed to result from that, should be valuable to someone else. Spiritual endeavours are really quite a complex bother, all these things that one has to practice or think about, so to get someone to get involved in it really requires a real snow job. You have to bury them with advertising about how great things will be if they do this. You need an intellectual framework to explain why doing such atypical things will benefit. To get someone to come around to your ideas about what you like, it may not matter if it doesn't really work. You make up this because you are socially wired to a certain extent, and a successful social interaction results in feeling good. So there really is not much of a reason for saying such experiences as spiritual experiences are valuable, you hawk them that way, just as you would a certain artist, a good restaurant, a walk on a nice evening. Because social interactions are on an individual level, I would say the ego is involved, that level of personal identity that thinks it is running the show. The ego provides the explanations. From a scientific level, the experiments that indicate the brain comes to decisions often as far as 7 or 8 seconds prior to that decision comes into conscious awareness. That would mean you are not really in control of anything. Life goes on this and that way. Stuff happens, you think you do stuff. Hawking TM or hawking Bruce or hawking Hawking resuls in satisfaction. Whatever floats your boat. As for experiences of unboundedness, I really don't think of them that way any more. The spiritual trip is the strangest con in the universe. Suppose I put it this way: How would you like to be exactly the way you are for as long as you are? This is what I am offering you. It will take you about 40 or 50 years, and you will have to do all these different things, adopt crazy ideas, do exercises, sit quietly, eat special foods, take weird medicines. Want to jump in an try this out? In order to get people to do what you like, you have to be more devious in your enticements. It all comes down to 'I like this, and I want you to like it too'. Psst, I have some secret stuff that other people do not know, and if you let me tell you, and you do what I say, you will be able to say every day 'I'm gonna help people! Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me! From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system. But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these experiences of unboundedness. That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps everything else. I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the first
Re: [FairfieldLife] Consciousness Is Awareness, was Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Richard, aha! Me and Sam, both over simplifiers (-: On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:29 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On 10/22/2014 4:08 PM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Richard, it occurs to me that the only thing we can know for sure is that awareness exists. And that's because we're aware. But maybe I'm over simplifying (-: Self-consciousness and awareness are the same terms as consciousness. Everyone experiences consciousness - it's the universal truth and requires no proof. The truth of consciousness is experiential. To be aware is to be conscious; to be human is to be self-conscious. Consciousness is the prior condition of every experience. - Sam Harris On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:02 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On 10/21/2014 12:07 PM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Curtis, I just had a lunch of veggies and salmon so maybe my brain is a little more up to respond. Maybe! Definitely not as good as Sam Harris (-: According to Sam Harris consciousness is the only thing that cannot be an illusion. Anyway, my questions are: 1. how do we know that we know? We know that we exist because we are self-conscious. Without consciousness there would be no perception or perceiver. Which is kind of abstract and probably just me reliving a past life as a haetera! Non sequitur. The fact of consciousness is dirt simple because everyone has it, otherwise they would be unconscious. Nobody that is conscious goes around saying they don't exist. Consciousness is the basic fact of life that cannot be doubted.- Sam harris 2. what do we mean by knowing? Knowing is having knowledge structured in consciousness; intelligence. Ok, we see a tree fall so we think we know that it fell. Of course, perception could be faulty. If appearances derived through one sensory channel appear contradictory, it is natural to appeal to other senses for corroboration. When they contradict, which sense shall we accept as reliable? If we observe the naive realist closely, we will find that at some times he relies principally on his eyes and, at other times, on his ears. When different senses corroborate an error, he even more baffled. Or, to go into the arts as you suggested, we listen to a song about first love, and from our own memories of that, we recognize the truth of the song. For past experiences, to be compared, they must be remembered. But memory often fails us. What assurance do we have that it is not failing us again? Past experiences may have been erroneous consistently. The materialist thinks he sees directly back into an existing past which in reality has ceased to exist! This is called in philosophy an appeal to instruments and like the appeal to other senses, to past experiences, to repetition, and to other persons, is a confession of failure. For it is a confession that apparently obvious objects are NOT self-evident. But here's my really favorite question, 3. Back to your post: what is meant by worthwhile reality? It is worthwhile to be conscious because that way get to enjoy life and gain knowledge that will set us free. You should know the truth and the truth will set your free. There in knowledge higher than absolute knowledge. Are there some realities that are not worthwhile? There is only one single reality - pure consciousness - duality is an illusion. On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:18 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: M: I hope you don't mind me weighing in,this was a particularly thought provoking post. I too am an amateur philosopher. But I am not sure philosophy is the right discipline to answer your question from, except to enhance the discussion of how could we know? Here is the section you quite wisely focused on: Is a believe in the existence of component or realm beyond the physical/material justified? When I use the expression 'physical/material' I include anything that is physical/material, or anything that interacts with the physical/material. M: It seems to me that in a sense this ship has sailed with the advent of knowledge about a level of matter that is so squirrely to our sense-bound intuitions that it does not resemble matter as we know it, even though technically it IS matter from physics. That we do not know all or in some cases very much about this level of reality should give us all some humility about what is real. But for me those who confidently claim to know about a non physical realm through internal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Power Places of Central Texas
On 10/23/2014 9:05 AM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: I thought Lost Pines burned down a couple years ago durring the drought. /Yes, unfortunately there was a fire at the Lost Pines at Bastrop, but there was no fire in the main Piney Woods, which is about 100 miles east of Bastrop. According to what I've read, t//he stand of pines is unique in Texas because it is a disjunct population of trees that is more than 100 miles (160 km) separated from, and yet closely genetically related to, the vast expanse of pine trees of the Piney Woods region. That's why the location is called Lost Pines but which might now be called no pines. I didn't mention the Piney Woods because my photo essay has to do with the power places of central Texas, where we currently reside. Thanks for the comment. The Piney Woods is a temperate coniferous forest terrestrial ecoregion in the Southern United States covering 54,400 square miles (141,000 km2) of East Texas, southern Arkansas, western Louisiana, and southeastern Oklahoma. These coniferous forests are dominated by several species of pine as well as hardwoods including hickory and oak. Historically the most dense part of this forest region was the Big Thicket though the lumber industry dramatically reduced the forest concentration in this area and throughout the Piney Woods during the 19th and 20th centuries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piney_Woods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piney_Woods/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up. This article might help: Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income? http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Many people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi... View on tinyurl.com http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
On 10/23/2014 9:29 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Richard, your posts remind me of how much I appreciate David Deida and other teachers who suggest that the old ways of liberation are best suited to masculine physiologies. He also compares a soul to the light coming in from a stained glass window, which is the body. Via yoga practices we attempt to clean the dirt off the window. Via therapy we attempt to fix the cracks in the glass. But at a certain point, we realize we are the light. End of cleaning and fixing! It's like the Zen koan: Polishing a Tile to Make a Mirror: /There was a zen student named Tai-i who was always sitting in meditation. His master Matsu asked him: For what purpose are you sitting in meditation?// // //The student answered: I am trying to become a Buddha.// // //So, the Zen Master picked up a tile and started rubbing it.// // //The student asked: For what purpose are you rubbing a tile?// // //The Zen Master replied I am rubbing this tile to make a mirror.// // //The student asked: How can you rub a tile to make a mirror?// // //To which the Zen Master answered: How can you make a Buddha by sitting and meditating?/ Zen Buddhism: A History Volume 1 by Heinrich Dumoulin MacMillan, 1994 pp. 160-163 http://www.absolutoracle.com/Notezen/Articles/koan1.htm On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:11 AM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On 10/23/2014 7:14 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com mailto:sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Could it be that we're simply compelled by neural pathways in our brain that want to be activated? /According to MMY it is the nature of the mind to want to enjoy - it's only natural for anyone to want to be free from suffering. He said that the way into bliss is the way out of suffering.// // //So, nobody wants to suffer but in fact, suffering is a given in life: we all suffer from repeated birth, old age, sickness and eventual death. The truth is that we are all bound by karma, either from this life or from a previous life. There is no exception to karma, from the highest god or deva down to a single blade of grass. // // //The idea behind yoga is to provide the ideal opportunity for awakening to the truth of how things really are. If you know the truth you will be free. Yoga is immortality and freedom. // // //According to yoga theory, you build up samskaras due to karma - the actions in this life and in your past lives. You can remove the samskaras through tapas - burning off the accumulated layers of past actions through meditation and other yoga practices. But a practice will not remove all the samskaras - even for an accomplished yogi there's always a trace of karma because they still maintain a human body with air, water, and food, coarse or fine, and thoughts, volitions and desires. // // //A siddha yogi is one who has realized the truth and is totally free while still in living in a human body, a jivan-mukti - for them there is no return; everything has been done that needs to be done; gone to the other shore; totally gone. No come back no more.//Free./ On Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:00 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com mailto:turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: *From:* Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com mailto:mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:04 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness Well said Barry - and I agree with every word It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable. I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Richard, is he saying something similar to: the Self alone unfolds the Self to
the Self? That's what it sounds like to me. I think the whole thing is a big,
fat paradox!
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:17 AM, 'Richard J. Williams'
pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
On 10/23/2014 9:29 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Richard, your posts remind me of how much I appreciate David Deida and
other teachers who suggest that the old ways of liberation are best suited to
masculine physiologies.
He also compares a soul to the light coming in from a stained glass window,
which is the body. Via yoga practices we attempt to clean the dirt off the
window. Via therapy we attempt to fix the cracks in the glass.
But at a certain point, we realize we are the light. End of cleaning and
fixing!
It's like the Zen koan: Polishing a Tile to Make a Mirror:
There was a zen student named Tai-i who was always sitting in meditation. His
master Matsu asked him: For what purpose are you sitting in meditation?
The student answered: I am trying to become a Buddha.
So, the Zen Master picked up a tile and started rubbing it.
The student asked: For what purpose are you rubbing a tile?
The Zen Master replied I am rubbing this tile to make a mirror.
The student asked: How can you rub a tile to make a mirror?
To which the Zen Master answered: How can you make a Buddha by sitting and
meditating?
Zen Buddhism: A History Volume 1
by Heinrich Dumoulin
MacMillan, 1994
pp. 160-163
http://www.absolutoracle.com/Notezen/Articles/koan1.htm
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:11 AM, 'Richard J. Williams'
pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
On 10/23/2014 7:14 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] wrote:
Could it be that we're simply compelled by neural pathways in our brain that
want to be activated?
According to MMY it is the nature of the mind to want to enjoy - it's only
natural for anyone to want to be free from suffering. He said that the way
into bliss is the way out of suffering.
So, nobody wants to suffer but in fact, suffering is a given in life: we all
suffer from repeated birth, old age, sickness and eventual death. The truth is
that we are all bound by karma, either from this life or from a previous life.
There is no exception to karma, from the highest god or deva down to a single
blade of grass.
The idea behind yoga is to provide the ideal opportunity for awakening to the
truth of how things really are. If you know the truth you will be free. Yoga
is immortality and freedom.
According to yoga theory, you build up samskaras due to karma - the actions in
this life and in your past lives. You can remove the samskaras through tapas -
burning off the accumulated layers of past actions through meditation and
other yoga practices. But a practice will not remove all the samskaras - even
for an accomplished yogi there's always a trace of karma because they still
maintain a human body with air, water, and food, coarse or fine, and thoughts,
volitions and desires.
A siddha yogi is one who has realized the truth and is totally free while
still in living in a human body, a jivan-mukti - for them there is no
return; everything has been done that needs to be done; gone to the other
shore; totally gone. No come back no more. Free.
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:00 AM, TurquoiseBee
turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Well said Barry - and I agree with every word
It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable.
I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to
the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness I think you hit on something here I never considered. Social interaction. I do not think there is any objective measure by which one considers such experiences valuable. There are certain things I like, certain things I do not, and I go for the ones I like. While I do not know why, those things I like I sometimes like to share with others. A piece of music, a movie. Why did you post about Bruce Cockburn's music, his book? I am not sure there is any reliable objective measure why one likes something other than a general propensity to avoid pain and to maintain comfort. Now if you recall Maharishi said the mind seeks a greater field of happiness. Because he was hawking TM, he skewed the concept to correspond with his metaphysic (the transcendental field, the unified field). You do not need a field. Basically I think it comes down to you like stuff, and don't like other stuff. The rationalisations come later. If there is any objective evidence for that previous sentence it might be split brain experiments. When one side of the brain of people with this condition are asked to explain why the other side of the body did something, it makes up an explanation. The whole spiritual trip is a post hoc explanation fabricated to explain why something you like, in this case some kind of meditation for example, or the experience that is supposed to result from that, should be valuable to someone else. Spiritual endeavours are really quite a complex bother, all these things that one has to practice or think about, so to get someone to get involved in it really requires a real snow job. You have to bury them with advertising about how great things will be if they do this. You need an intellectual framework to explain why doing such atypical things will benefit. To get someone to come around to your ideas about what you like, it may not matter if it doesn't really work. You make up this because you are socially wired to a certain extent, and a successful social interaction results in feeling good. So there really is not much of a reason for saying such experiences as spiritual experiences are valuable, you hawk them that way, just as you would a certain artist, a good restaurant, a walk on a nice evening. Because social interactions are on an individual level, I would say the ego is involved, that level of personal identity that thinks it is running the show. The ego provides the explanations. From a scientific level, the experiments that indicate the brain comes to decisions often as far as 7 or 8 seconds prior to that decision comes into conscious awareness. That would mean you are not really in control of anything. Life goes on this and that way. Stuff happens, you think you do stuff. Hawking TM or hawking Bruce or hawking Hawking resuls in satisfaction. Whatever floats your boat. As for experiences of unboundedness, I really don't think of them that way any more. The spiritual trip is the strangest con in the universe. Suppose I put it this way: How would you like to be exactly the way you are for as long as you are? This is what I am offering you. It will take you about 40 or 50 years, and you will have to do all these different things, adopt crazy ideas, do exercises, sit quietly, eat special foods, take weird medicines. Want to jump in an try this out? In order to get people to do what you like, you have to be more devious in your enticements. It all comes down to 'I like this, and I want you to like it too'. Psst, I have some secret stuff that other people do not know, and if you let me tell you, and you do what I say, you will be able to say every day 'I'm gonna help people! Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me! Two travelers are on a road, looking for Ixtlan. They ask a passing bird for directions. He gives them, then flies off. Do the travelers go in the direction he pointed them to, or not? Whatever their choice, do they ever get to Ixtlan? However long their journey, did they ever leave it?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
On 10/23/2014 10:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates to create hysterical click bait. /There are very few average Americans who understand the U.S. income tax code because it is so complicated. And these days, many Americans don't even trust the IRS itself to be fair and balanced in the collection of taxes. Go figure. What we need is a flat tax where everyone pays their fair share, without all the mysterious exemptions and loopholes. We should all be equal under the law. That's what I think. We should abolish the IRS and simplify all the individual income tax codes so that it is easy to understand. Then we would all know exactly what the tax is for everyone. It is a fact that when you have a simple flat tax code, there is less reason to employ fancy lawyers and accountants to try and beat paying your fair share. Thanks for posting the article./ Later in the article they fessed up. This article might help: *Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income? http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb image http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Many people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi... View on tinyurl.com http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Preview by Yahoo *
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Consciousness Is The Ultimate Reality, was Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Yep. I was curious about that when he said it, as I wasn't sure what sort of perceptual change would occur, perhaps even through the senses. It is actually the introduction of an ever deepening and abiding silence, inside and out, which unifies all the diversity, and even softens any negative expressions, or perceptions. Very subtle, yet unmistakable. The overall perception, unified by this bliss, is then always of oneness, though not to the extent that one's normal likes and dislikes are perverted at all. Life with dark and light continues, but everything is dominated and saturated by oneness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Lawson, there's a wonderful tape in which someone asks Maharishi if in Unity a person could marry anyone. Maharishi laughs and then explains that differences don't disappear in Unity. It's just that they no longer dominate awareness. On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:43 PM, LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: So you're saying that an enlightened person loses the ability to descriminate between a flower and a duck? Or loses the ability to name things because they see the fundamental unity in the diversity? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : The way Maharishi explained the illusion of Maya is rather different than what a lot of people understand. Consciousness is not an illusion, nor is what most people call reality. The illusion is that there is a fundamental difference between them. This is the veil of maya: a thin, non-existent membrane that separates the two which is merely an artifact of our perception of things based on having a nervous system. Full enlightenment is when you can full see on both sides of that non-existent veil. I'll go along with that, except for the bit about seeing everything on both sides after enlightenment. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, inmadison@... wrote : This may be above my pay-grade, but if one is a transcendentalist/idealist, then belief in classic cause and effect is incompatible with that belief . . . or one has to significantly qualify what is meant by cause and effect. Many folks who refer to them selves as transcendentalists/idealists are actually dualists, or simply rebranded materialists (I am not suggesting you are) Regarding the 'illusion' - when you pick up an object, like an apple for example, what does your experience tell you?When I pick up an apple, I see it's color and shape, I feel the texture and if pressed with a fingernail - I can sense the sticky juice, I taste the tart sweetness . . . and I remember apple pies and so forth. My experience of the apple is passionate and lively - Where is the illusion? Toss in more awareness and all you get is more passion - there is no illusion. 'Illusion' is just India of old - we don't need no stinking illusion in the 21st century.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
On 10/23/2014 10:36 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Two travelers are on a road, looking for Ixtlan. They ask a passing bird for directions. He gives them, then flies off. Do the travelers go in the direction he pointed them to, or not? Whatever their choice, do they ever get to Ixtlan? However long their journey, did they ever leave it? /This little story by Carlos Castaneda is almost straight out of South Asian mythology. Apparently Castaneda got almost all of his inspiration from reading books in the UCLA library. This is supposed to be Yaqui philosophy - but everyone knows that the native American inhabitants all migrated over from Asia. So it's not surprising to see ancient Siberian shamanic notions in Yaqui mythology. // // /*/Buddha's Parable of the Raft:/*/ // //Without a ferry or a bridge you can safely cross over a river on a raft.// //The purpose of the raft is to cross over to the other side. If you don't have a raft you can build one and use it to cross over. Once you have crossed over, you can discard the raft. You would look funny walking around with a raft on your head.// // /*/Zen Koan the Gateless Gate:/*/ // //There is a long, winding spiritual path to get to the gate. You must pass through the gate in order to get to the other side. Once you pass through, you find that there is no path, no going, no gate, and no other side. So, we call it the gateless gate. //http://www.spiritualliving360.com/index.php/zen-koan-case-of-carrying-the-raft-3065// /http://www.dailyzen.com/zen/zen_reading12.asp/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
When the working class have less money to spend the economy goes into the dumps. That's why Mike's solution won't work. A lot of US businesses are having problems like McDonalds, Coke and even Starbucks keeps trying to get it's customers to come spend more. It's easy to see these signs of desperation in a crashing economy. http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/wages-compensationeconomystagnationsocialsecurityadministrationd.html With trickle down all you get is the rich peeing on the poor. On 10/23/2014 08:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up. This article might help: *Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income? http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb image http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Many people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi... View on tinyurl.com http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb Preview by Yahoo *
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
That was a great read, thanks! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I think you hit on something here I never considered. Social interaction. I do not think there is any objective measure by which one considers such experiences valuable. There are certain things I like, certain things I do not, and I go for the ones I like. While I do not know why, those things I like I sometimes like to share with others. A piece of music, a movie. Why did you post about Bruce Cockburn's music, his book? I am not sure there is any reliable objective measure why one likes something other than a general propensity to avoid pain and to maintain comfort. Now if you recall Maharishi said the mind seeks a greater field of happiness. Because he was hawking TM, he skewed the concept to correspond with his metaphysic (the transcendental field, the unified field). You do not need a field. Basically I think it comes down to you like stuff, and don't like other stuff. The rationalisations come later. If there is any objective evidence for that previous sentence it might be split brain experiments. When one side of the brain of people with this condition are asked to explain why the other side of the body did something, it makes up an explanation. The whole spiritual trip is a post hoc explanation fabricated to explain why something you like, in this case some kind of meditation for example, or the experience that is supposed to result from that, should be valuable to someone else. Spiritual endeavours are really quite a complex bother, all these things that one has to practice or think about, so to get someone to get involved in it really requires a real snow job. You have to bury them with advertising about how great things will be if they do this. You need an intellectual framework to explain why doing such atypical things will benefit. To get someone to come around to your ideas about what you like, it may not matter if it doesn't really work. You make up this because you are socially wired to a certain extent, and a successful social interaction results in feeling good. So there really is not much of a reason for saying such experiences as spiritual experiences are valuable, you hawk them that way, just as you would a certain artist, a good restaurant, a walk on a nice evening. Because social interactions are on an individual level, I would say the ego is involved, that level of personal identity that thinks it is running the show. The ego provides the explanations. From a scientific level, the experiments that indicate the brain comes to decisions often as far as 7 or 8 seconds prior to that decision comes into conscious awareness. That would mean you are not really in control of anything. Life goes on this and that way. Stuff happens, you think you do stuff. Hawking TM or hawking Bruce or hawking Hawking resuls in satisfaction. Whatever floats your boat. As for experiences of unboundedness, I really don't think of them that way any more. The spiritual trip is the strangest con in the universe. Suppose I put it this way: How would you like to be exactly the way you are for as long as you are? This is what I am offering you. It will take you about 40 or 50 years, and you will have to do all these different things, adopt crazy ideas, do exercises, sit quietly, eat special foods, take weird medicines. Want to jump in an try this out? In order to get people to do what you like, you have to be more devious in your enticements. It all comes down to 'I like this, and I want you to like it too'. Psst, I have some secret stuff that other people do not know, and if you let me tell you, and you do what I say, you will be able to say every day 'I'm gonna help people! Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me! From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system. But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these experiences of unboundedness. That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps everything else. I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a better system, make a case for these
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Consciousness Is The Ultimate Reality, was Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Fleetwood, I had an experience of Unity once. But it wasn't so much about
silence. It was so subtly about familiarity. Everything I was perceiving seemed
so familiar to me. Not because it was known in the usual sense. But because it
was as familiar to me as I am to myself. Very very subtle, yet unmistakeable.
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:56 AM, fleetwood_macnche...@yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Yep. I was curious about that when he said it, as I wasn't sure what sort
of perceptual change would occur, perhaps even through the senses. It is
actually the introduction of an ever deepening and abiding silence, inside and
out, which unifies all the diversity, and even softens any negative
expressions, or perceptions. Very subtle, yet unmistakable. The overall
perception, unified by this bliss, is then always of oneness, though not to the
extent that one's normal likes and dislikes are perverted at all. Life with
dark and light continues, but everything is dominated and saturated by oneness.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :
Lawson, there's a wonderful tape in which someone asks Maharishi if in Unity a
person could marry anyone. Maharishi laughs and then explains that differences
don't disappear in Unity. It's just that they no longer dominate awareness.
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:43 PM, LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
So you're saying that an enlightened person loses the ability to descriminate
between a flower and a duck?
Or loses the ability to name things because they see the fundamental unity in
the diversity?
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote :
The way Maharishi explained the illusion of Maya is rather different than
what a lot of people understand.
Consciousness is not an illusion, nor is what most people call reality.
The illusion is that there is a fundamental difference between them.
This is the veil of maya: a thin, non-existent membrane that separates the
two which is merely an artifact of our perception of things based on having a
nervous system. Full enlightenment is when you can full see on both sides of
that non-existent veil.
I'll go along with that, except for the bit about seeing everything on both
sides after enlightenment.
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, inmadison@... wrote :
This may be above my pay-grade, but if one is a transcendentalist/idealist,
then belief in classic cause and effect is incompatible with that belief . . .
or one has to significantly qualify what is meant by cause and effect. Many
folks who refer to them selves as transcendentalists/idealists are actually
dualists, or simply rebranded materialists (I am not suggesting you are)
Regarding the 'illusion' - when you pick up an object, like an apple for
example, what does your experience tell you? When I pick up an apple, I see
it's color and shape, I feel the texture and if pressed with a fingernail - I
can sense the sticky juice, I taste the tart sweetness . . . and I remember
apple pies and so forth. My experience of the apple is passionate and lively -
Where is the illusion? Toss in more awareness and all you get is more passion
- there is no illusion. 'Illusion' is just India of old - we don't need no
stinking illusion in the 21st century.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Tis the season of the witch
A lot of European horror has a dark comedy spin. US made films not so much. Cabin Fever: Patient Zero, a US film, is a comedy of errors. Elmore Leonard's shtick was to show how dumb both crooks and cops could be. The same shtick works well for horror. Too much intense suspense can be a bit tiring and difficult to pull off. The Possession of MJ er The Possession of Michael King takes a dark comedic approach of a supernatural debunker which will have you laughing half the time. P2 is a 2007 Canadian film making the rounds now on Hulu and VUDU with Continuum's Rachel Nichols (as a blond) and Wes Bentley. Nichols plays an office worker who is the last to leave the building on Christmas Eve and enlists the building's security guy (Bentley) to help get her car started. Little does she know what the security guy has in mind for her. Definitely rated Not for Buck and most here. No comedic relief in this one as it is more a thriller all the way through that builds to the end. Septic Man has been added to Hulu's Huluween lineup. It was done by the folks who did Pontypool and the trailer shows it to be a horror dark comedy as Pontypool is. On 10/23/2014 07:07 AM, turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : I don't have much in the way of movies to recommend this month because most all I have been watching have been horror films. That's because I hang out with a group on a forum that tries to watch a horror film each night in October to celebrate 31 Days of Halloween. Most films I watch would not be for the faint of heart here. But one from Turq's former country of residence, Spain, is actually more of a dark comedy and called Witching and Bitching. Sounds like FFL doesn't it? But it's about a heist in Madrid and how the crooks escape to a small town and learn it is run by witches. Lots of comedy of errors. It's on Netflix WI. I decided to look into this one and discovered it was by Alex de la Iglesia, considered one of the enfant terrible directors of Spain. I'd seen one of his earlier films in English, The Oxford Murders, and loved it, so I gave this one a try. What you said about it was true, but you didn't convey how FUNNY it was, and how much of a commentary on eternal male-female stereotypes of each other it was. Iglesia has been compared (favorably) with Robert Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino, and now I see why. Rated SO not for Buck, and probably not for many others here. But for the twisted few, it's a real gas...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
And when you tax TF out of businesses and or the rich, they have less money to
expand or modernize businesses( remember the steel industry back in the 70'S)
or to give raises to their employees. You end up with fewer jobs and smaller
tax base, less revenue and so the government barrows more money to meet it's
needs, which turns out to be unemployment benefits, welfare and food stamps
etc. for those that can't find jobs because there aren't any, because the
government is taking the profits from the businesses! Unions don't help either
because they've become so greedy that they drive their members jobs over seas
(Textiles). When was the last time you bought an article of clothing made in
the USA? If you did, a shirt would probably cost you nearly sixty dollars! Just
came back from shopping and that's what I found.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
When the working class have less money to spend the economy goes into the
dumps. That's why Mike's solution won't work. A lot of US businesses are
having problems like McDonalds, Coke and even Starbucks keeps trying to get
it's customers to come spend more. It's easy to see these signs of desperation
in a crashing economy.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/wages-compensationeconomystagnationsocialsecurityadministrationd.html
With trickle down all you get is the rich peeing on the poor.
On 10/23/2014 08:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and
all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates
to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up.
This article might help:
Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income?
|
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| Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... Many people
think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a higher
tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi...|
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
I guess you just like to live in a world where you bow down to the landed gentry. That's where we're headed now. I'd rather stick a pitchfork in them. On 10/23/2014 12:15 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: And when you tax TF out of businesses and or the rich, they have less money to expand or modernize businesses( remember the steel industry back in the 70'S) or to give raises to their employees. You end up with fewer jobs and smaller tax base, less revenue and so the government barrows more money to meet it's needs, which turns out to be unemployment benefits, welfare and food stamps etc. for those that can't find jobs because there aren't any, because the government is taking the profits from the businesses! Unions don't help either because they've become so greedy that they drive their members jobs over seas (Textiles). When was the last time you bought an article of clothing made in the USA? If you did, a shirt would probably cost you nearly sixty dollars! Just came back from shopping and that's what I found. *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:18 AM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent When the working class have less money to spend the economy goes into the dumps. That's why Mike's solution won't work. A lot of US businesses are having problems like McDonalds, Coke and even Starbucks keeps trying to get it's customers to come spend more. It's easy to see these signs of desperation in a crashing economy. http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/wages-compensationeconomystagnationsocialsecurityadministrationd.html With trickle down all you get is the rich peeing on the poor. On 10/23/2014 08:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com mailto:marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up. This article might help: *Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income? http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** * * * * ** *image http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** * * ** ** *Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * *Many people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi...* ** ** ** * * ** *View on tinyurl.com http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** ** *Preview by Yahoo * ** * * ** ** ** **
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
Regarding textiles, take a look at the price of underwear. Hanes and Fruit of Loom cost about twice what they did a few years back. But this is a job that could go to automation. Paying slave wages to people in third world countries to make these things is a bit retro and cruel. We now have 3D printers which could be adapted to mass produce cheap garments. Leave seamstresses to make original and unique clothing which they enjoy doing. You shop at Nordstroms? On 10/23/2014 12:15 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: And when you tax TF out of businesses and or the rich, they have less money to expand or modernize businesses( remember the steel industry back in the 70'S) or to give raises to their employees. You end up with fewer jobs and smaller tax base, less revenue and so the government barrows more money to meet it's needs, which turns out to be unemployment benefits, welfare and food stamps etc. for those that can't find jobs because there aren't any, because the government is taking the profits from the businesses! Unions don't help either because they've become so greedy that they drive their members jobs over seas (Textiles). When was the last time you bought an article of clothing made in the USA? If you did, a shirt would probably cost you nearly sixty dollars! Just came back from shopping and that's what I found. *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:18 AM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent When the working class have less money to spend the economy goes into the dumps. That's why Mike's solution won't work. A lot of US businesses are having problems like McDonalds, Coke and even Starbucks keeps trying to get it's customers to come spend more. It's easy to see these signs of desperation in a crashing economy. http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/wages-compensationeconomystagnationsocialsecurityadministrationd.html With trickle down all you get is the rich peeing on the poor. On 10/23/2014 08:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com mailto:marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up. This article might help: *Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income? http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** * * * * ** *image http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** * * ** ** *Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * *Many people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi...* ** ** ** * * ** *View on tinyurl.com http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** ** *Preview by Yahoo * ** * * ** ** ** **
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
WRT TM, I never got a snow job or a hard sell. In 1972, I was student teaching in a non traditional high school. One of the other student teachers explained the bubble diagram to me. Also during this time, my husband and I were doing marijuana approx 3 times a year. I wished that I could have that high in a natural way. We also did a yoga class. I caught a cold. Now fast forward three years. I'm in Yes health food restaurant in DC. A gorgeous young man comes up to my table, doesn't say a word, and leaves a copy of Autobiography of a Yogi. I read the book over several months but don't understand most of it. A few months later I'm visiting my Mom. She comments that I seem so peaceful. I'm thinking about taking a Tai Chi class at Univ of Maryland, called The Art of Moving Meditation. One beautiful day in March 1975, I take my camera to Rock Creek Park. Along the way I stop at a grocery store. As I'm leaving, I see a picture of Maharishi for the first time. I don't know why, except for the word meditation, but I note the time, date and place of the intro lecture. When I go to the lecture at my local public library there are 2 other people present. The lecturer is giving out literature. I tell him I don't need the literature because I know I'm gonna start. And I did. A week before the first Merv Griffin Show. And from the beginning, I knew this was what I had been wishing for. 6 weeks later I attended my first residence course. 6 months later I came to MIU. All without any snow job or hard sell. On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:37 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: I think you hit on something here I never considered. Social interaction. I do not think there is any objective measure by which one considers such experiences valuable. There are certain things I like, certain things I do not, and I go for the ones I like. While I do not know why, those things I like I sometimes like to share with others. A piece of music, a movie. Why did you post about Bruce Cockburn's music, his book? I am not sure there is any reliable objective measure why one likes something other than a general propensity to avoid pain and to maintain comfort. Now if you recall Maharishi said the mind seeks a greater field of happiness. Because he was hawking TM, he skewed the concept to correspond with his metaphysic (the transcendental field, the unified field). You do not need a field. Basically I think it comes down to you like stuff, and don't like other stuff. The rationalisations come later. If there is any objective evidence for that previous sentence it might be split brain experiments. When one side of the brain of people with this condition are asked to explain why the other side of the body did something, it makes up an explanation. The whole spiritual trip is a post hoc explanation fabricated to explain why something you like, in this case some kind of meditation for example, or the experience that is supposed to result from that, should be valuable to someone else. Spiritual endeavours are really quite a complex bother, all these things that one has to practice or think about, so to get someone to get involved in it really requires a real snow job. You have to bury them with advertising about how great things will be if they do this. You need an intellectual framework to explain why doing such atypical things will benefit. To get someone to come around to your ideas about what you like, it may not matter if it doesn't really work. You make up this because you are socially wired to a certain extent, and a successful social interaction results in feeling good. So there really is not much of a reason for saying such experiences as spiritual experiences are valuable, you hawk them that way, just as you would a certain artist, a good restaurant, a walk on a nice evening. Because social interactions are on an individual level, I would say the ego is involved, that level of personal identity that thinks it is running the show. The ego provides the explanations. From a scientific level, the experiments that indicate the brain comes to decisions often as far as 7 or 8 seconds prior to that decision comes into conscious awareness. That would mean you are not really in control of anything. Life goes on this and that way. Stuff happens, you think you do stuff. Hawking TM or hawking Bruce or hawking Hawking resuls in satisfaction. Whatever floats your boat. As for experiences of unboundedness, I really don't think of them that way any more. The spiritual trip is the strangest con in the universe. Suppose I put it this way: How would you like to be exactly the way you are for as long as you are? This is what I am offering you. It will take you about 40 or 50 years, and you will have to do all these different things, adopt crazy ideas, do exercises, sit quietly, eat special foods, take weird
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
That's called *biting the hand that feeds you*. Thou shalt not covet! You stick
a pitchfork in them and what are you left with? Nothing but a bloody pitchfork.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
I guess you just like to live in a world where you bow down to the landed
gentry. That's where we're headed now. I'd rather stick a pitchfork in them.
On 10/23/2014 12:15 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
And when you tax TF out of businesses and or the rich, they have less
money to expand or modernize businesses( remember the steel industry back in
the 70'S) or to give raises to their employees. You end up with fewer jobs and
smaller tax base, less revenue and so the government barrows more money to meet
it's needs, which turns out to be unemployment benefits, welfare and food
stamps etc. for those that can't find jobs because there aren't any, because
the government is taking the profits from the businesses! Unions don't help
either because they've become so greedy that they drive their members jobs
over seas (Textiles). When was the last time you bought an article of clothing
made in the USA? If you did, a shirt would probably cost you nearly sixty
dollars! Just came back from shopping and that's what I found.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
When the working class have less money to spend the economy goes into
the dumps. That's why Mike's solution won't work. A lot of US businesses are
having problems like McDonalds, Coke and even Starbucks keeps trying to get
it's customers to come spend more. It's easy to see these signs of desperation
in a crashing economy.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/wages-compensationeconomystagnationsocialsecurityadministrationd.html
With trickle down all you get is the rich peeing on the poor.
On 10/23/2014 08:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and
all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates
to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up.
This article might help:
Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income?
|
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|
| |
| Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... Many
people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a
higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi... |
|
| View on tinyurl.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|
|
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
Everything is going up! I just got back from shopping at Academy for cloths.
Those people in third world countries probably don't consider their wages as
*slave* wages, considering they are about the only jobs they've ever had,
unless it was scrubbing some other man's floors. Those jobs have raised their
standard of living enormously and I bet they are greatful to have them.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
Regarding textiles, take a look at the price of underwear. Hanes and
Fruit of Loom cost about twice what they did a few years back. But this is a
job that could go to automation. Paying slave wages to people in third world
countries to make these things is a bit retro and cruel. We now have 3D
printers which could be adapted to mass produce cheap garments. Leave
seamstresses to make original and unique clothing which they enjoy doing.
You shop at Nordstroms?
On 10/23/2014 12:15 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
And when you tax TF out of businesses and or the rich, they have less
money to expand or modernize businesses( remember the steel industry back in
the 70'S) or to give raises to their employees. You end up with fewer jobs and
smaller tax base, less revenue and so the government barrows more money to meet
it's needs, which turns out to be unemployment benefits, welfare and food
stamps etc. for those that can't find jobs because there aren't any, because
the government is taking the profits from the businesses! Unions don't help
either because they've become so greedy that they drive their members jobs
over seas (Textiles). When was the last time you bought an article of clothing
made in the USA? If you did, a shirt would probably cost you nearly sixty
dollars! Just came back from shopping and that's what I found.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
When the working class have less money to spend the economy goes into
the dumps. That's why Mike's solution won't work. A lot of US businesses are
having problems like McDonalds, Coke and even Starbucks keeps trying to get
it's customers to come spend more. It's easy to see these signs of desperation
in a crashing economy.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/wages-compensationeconomystagnationsocialsecurityadministrationd.html
With trickle down all you get is the rich peeing on the poor.
On 10/23/2014 08:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and
all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates
to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up.
This article might help:
Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income?
|
|
|
| |
| Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... Many
people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a
higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi... |
|
| View on tinyurl.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|
|
#yiv0524246813 #yiv0524246813 -- #yiv0524246813ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Consciousness Is The Ultimate Reality, was Belief in God is a form of mental illness
yeah, that is what I call silence, or bliss, I don't know what else to call it - it has a lot of attributes, and you use a great word for it - familiarity. That being the case, knowledge automatically follows attention; there are no boundaries to formally navigate, between subject and object, so everything is known, according to its interest (aka level of charm), vs. any sort of difficulty in gaining knowledge about an object, the old style model. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Fleetwood, I had an experience of Unity once. But it wasn't so much about silence. It was so subtly about familiarity. Everything I was perceiving seemed so familiar to me. Not because it was known in the usual sense. But because it was as familiar to me as I am to myself. Very very subtle, yet unmistakeable. On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:56 AM, fleetwood_macncheese@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Yep. I was curious about that when he said it, as I wasn't sure what sort of perceptual change would occur, perhaps even through the senses. It is actually the introduction of an ever deepening and abiding silence, inside and out, which unifies all the diversity, and even softens any negative expressions, or perceptions. Very subtle, yet unmistakable. The overall perception, unified by this bliss, is then always of oneness, though not to the extent that one's normal likes and dislikes are perverted at all. Life with dark and light continues, but everything is dominated and saturated by oneness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Lawson, there's a wonderful tape in which someone asks Maharishi if in Unity a person could marry anyone. Maharishi laughs and then explains that differences don't disappear in Unity. It's just that they no longer dominate awareness. On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:43 PM, LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: So you're saying that an enlightened person loses the ability to descriminate between a flower and a duck? Or loses the ability to name things because they see the fundamental unity in the diversity? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : The way Maharishi explained the illusion of Maya is rather different than what a lot of people understand. Consciousness is not an illusion, nor is what most people call reality. The illusion is that there is a fundamental difference between them. This is the veil of maya: a thin, non-existent membrane that separates the two which is merely an artifact of our perception of things based on having a nervous system. Full enlightenment is when you can full see on both sides of that non-existent veil. I'll go along with that, except for the bit about seeing everything on both sides after enlightenment. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, inmadison@... wrote : This may be above my pay-grade, but if one is a transcendentalist/idealist, then belief in classic cause and effect is incompatible with that belief . . . or one has to significantly qualify what is meant by cause and effect. Many folks who refer to them selves as transcendentalists/idealists are actually dualists, or simply rebranded materialists (I am not suggesting you are) Regarding the 'illusion' - when you pick up an object, like an apple for example, what does your experience tell you?When I pick up an apple, I see it's color and shape, I feel the texture and if pressed with a fingernail - I can sense the sticky juice, I taste the tart sweetness . . . and I remember apple pies and so forth. My experience of the apple is passionate and lively - Where is the illusion? Toss in more awareness and all you get is more passion - there is no illusion. 'Illusion' is just India of old - we don't need no stinking illusion in the 21st century.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Like you Share, I really did not pay attention to the selling points as I had had experiences prior to TM, I was just looking for an easy way to meditate, a natural consequence of being lazy. The sell was there in the introductory and preparatory lectures and in available chart books supposedly showing benefits from the scientific side, but I ignored all that at the time. My first few meditations were really rotten, I almost quit right there. But trying to sell TM to friends who are not really into this kind of thing proved more of a challenge. None of my friends ever learned, except for a couple, and they never finished the course. A few of my family learned, and they all quit too. I did discover that some of my friends who were teachers, when I criticised the quality of the scientific research on TM, would try really had to convince me the research was really true. About 1% of research on meditation in general is of good quality. Part of that seems to lie with the advertising mentality of the TMO. Dr. Lorin Roche wrote the following: The Relaxation Response is the term coined by Herbert Benson, M.D., in 1968 or so when looking at the physiological data he was getting from TM (Transcendental Meditation) meditators who were coming to his lab to be measured. Benson soon got tired of our relentless TM zealotry and the way we (TM teachers who were working for him) would sign official research documents with Jai Guru Dev. As TM teachers, we wanted to take the results from his lab and instantly use them as part of our advertising and our public lectures. TM at the time had meditation centers in every major city in the United States, and teachers on most every college campus across the country. It was a hugely popular movement. But Benson needed to be able to clone TM, make it into a laboratory-standardized technique that could be replicated and measured at other labs. That's what science is. So he decided to de-mystify mantras, and he started telling people to just pick their own mantra, such as the word, ONE. This scandalized the whole TM movement, but he had to do it. And truth be told, as far as I know, Benson in his 30 years or so of research on the physiology of meditation, publishing hundreds of scientific papers, is probably the greatest meditation scientist ever. I trust his findings. In the late 1960's and early 1970's, TM meditators were the guinea pigs of choice for scientists, because there were hundreds of thousands of them in the United States alone, and tens of thousands in other countries, their training was standardized, and they were so well trained that they could come into a medical lab and actually MEDITATE while the scientists stuck needles in their arms, electrodes on their heads, hands and hearts, and breathe into oxygen-consumption measuring masks. It's hard to find people like that! Think about it. Who in their right mind would take out part of their day to do such a thing? When I used to do this, in the 70's, it meant driving through ugly traffic to UCI Medical School, then going into a lab with a thousand rats in cages just a couple dozen feet away, the smell of ether in the air, and letting the guys in white coats poke me with huge needles and take blood samples while I meditated. TM blew it, by alienating one of the great scientists at work in the field, and by pushing bad science — publishing in their ads the results of trial studies. But the Buddhists, by comparison, played it very smart, and gradually came to be the favorite of physiological researchers. The Buddhists cheerfully cooperated with the needs of scientists, it is a match made in heaven because Buddhism is a very clinical take on life anyway. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : WRT TM, I never got a snow job or a hard sell. In 1972, I was student teaching in a non traditional high school. One of the other student teachers explained the bubble diagram to me. Also during this time, my husband and I were doing marijuana approx 3 times a year. I wished that I could have that high in a natural way. We also did a yoga class. I caught a cold. Now fast forward three years. I'm in Yes health food restaurant in DC. A gorgeous young man comes up to my table, doesn't say a word, and leaves a copy of Autobiography of a Yogi. I read the book over several months but don't understand most of it. A few months later I'm visiting my Mom. She comments that I seem so peaceful. I'm thinking about taking a Tai Chi class at Univ of Maryland, called The Art of Moving Meditation. One beautiful day in March 1975, I take my camera to Rock Creek Park. Along the way I stop at a grocery store. As I'm leaving, I see a picture of Maharishi for the first time. I don't know why, except for the word meditation, but I note the time, date and place of the intro lecture. When I go to the lecture at my local
Re: [FairfieldLife] FFL Hating Turq and Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Oh wow. That makes me happy. I sent her a query via the only email address I have and never got a response. If she responds further, please say hi. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Why? Its enough for me to know your prediction/projection of her demise/ and or serious injury was dead wrong. Calm down gentlemen. I simply asked Judy to respond in some small way to whether she was okay and if she needed something from me as we here at FFL hadn't heard from her for a while. This was over two months ago. She responded with two words, Don't worry. That is enough for me. If she needed my assistance in some way she would have asked for it. I am not sure her choice to stop posting here should be a platform for whether jyotish is valid or not. We can only deduce a couple of things from this small reply I got and those are: 1) she appears to be alive 2) she can still type. For whatever reason she has taken a powder and good for her.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
Probably the majority of Americans don't work for the rich. They work for small businesses. The people who run those aren't rich enough for a pitchfork. No biting of hand that feeds in this case. And in a networked world you don't need big businesses anymore. We're basically living in a science fiction world but there are some laggers who haven't caught up because they thing the game is accumulating lots of money and being a king. So out of fashion. On 10/23/2014 12:31 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: That's called *biting the hand that feeds you*. Thou shalt not covet! You stick a pitchfork in them and what are you left with? Nothing but a bloody pitchfork. *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:21 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent I guess you just like to live in a world where you bow down to the landed gentry. That's where we're headed now. I'd rather stick a pitchfork in them. On 10/23/2014 12:15 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com mailto:mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: And when you tax TF out of businesses and or the rich, they have less money to expand or modernize businesses( remember the steel industry back in the 70'S) or to give raises to their employees. You end up with fewer jobs and smaller tax base, less revenue and so the government barrows more money to meet it's needs, which turns out to be unemployment benefits, welfare and food stamps etc. for those that can't find jobs because there aren't any, because the government is taking the profits from the businesses! Unions don't help either because they've become so greedy that they drive their members jobs over seas (Textiles). When was the last time you bought an article of clothing made in the USA? If you did, a shirt would probably cost you nearly sixty dollars! Just came back from shopping and that's what I found. *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net mailto:noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:18 AM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent When the working class have less money to spend the economy goes into the dumps. That's why Mike's solution won't work. A lot of US businesses are having problems like McDonalds, Coke and even Starbucks keeps trying to get it's customers to come spend more. It's easy to see these signs of desperation in a crashing economy. http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/wages-compensationeconomystagnationsocialsecurityadministrationd.html With trickle down all you get is the rich peeing on the poor. On 10/23/2014 08:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com mailto:marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo and all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax Rates to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up. This article might help: *Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income? http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** * * * * ** *image http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** * * ** ** *Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * *Many people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi...* ** ** ** * * ** *View on tinyurl.com http://tinyurl.com/ksehxxb * ** ** *Preview by Yahoo * ** * * ** ** ** **
[FairfieldLife] Re: Consciousness Is The Ultimate Reality, was Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Well, maybe, maybe not. Pure consciousness during TM seems to be very closely aligned with EEG of the preliminary aspect of creativity found in non-meditation research on creativity, and the EEG found in really-long-term TMers (especially those participating in the Invincible America course) seems to be a further enhancement in the same direction. This goes along with the description of Yogic Flying as creating onesself into the air which some people interpret as describing teleportation, but I interpret along the above lines. The bottom line (other than providing physicists with a potentially interesting physical problem concerning floating around the room) is that TM-style Unity may well have physiological correlates entirely different than what like behind drug/illness-induced conditions described the same and these correlates, even/especially in the advanced people, may have benefits both for the person and the society (leaving aside ME issues). Imagine, if creativity really IS radically enhanced in people in Unity, what advances in science, technology, public policy and the arts might come from scientists/mathematicians/engineers/politicians/artists, not to mention, fathers and mothers, who happened to be fully enlightened ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : So you're saying that an enlightened person loses the ability to descriminate between a flower and a duck? Or loses the ability to name things because they see the fundamental unity in the diversity? That reads like you've responded to the wrong post. What are you expecting as a reward for all this meditation? What I mean is that things don't change a whole bunch. Sure you get a bit more of something as well as what you've got now but it doesn't change what your senses are capable of perceiving. And this fundamental unity may just be a fancy name for a type of perceptive change similar to certain hallucinogenic states. I've experienced both, the TM one is nice but fundamental is stretching it as it isn't giving you any secret knowledge, just presenting what we all get a bit differently. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : The way Maharishi explained the illusion of Maya is rather different than what a lot of people understand. Consciousness is not an illusion, nor is what most people call reality. The illusion is that there is a fundamental difference between them. This is the veil of maya: a thin, non-existent membrane that separates the two which is merely an artifact of our perception of things based on having a nervous system. Full enlightenment is when you can full see on both sides of that non-existent veil. I'll go along with that, except for the bit about seeing everything on both sides after enlightenment. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, inmadison@... wrote : This may be above my pay-grade, but if one is a transcendentalist/idealist, then belief in classic cause and effect is incompatible with that belief . . . or one has to significantly qualify what is meant by cause and effect. Many folks who refer to them selves as transcendentalists/idealists are actually dualists, or simply rebranded materialists (I am not suggesting you are) Regarding the 'illusion' - when you pick up an object, like an apple for example, what does your experience tell you?When I pick up an apple, I see it's color and shape, I feel the texture and if pressed with a fingernail - I can sense the sticky juice, I taste the tart sweetness . . . and I remember apple pies and so forth. My experience of the apple is passionate and lively - Where is the illusion? Toss in more awareness and all you get is more passion - there is no illusion. 'Illusion' is just India of old - we don't need no stinking illusion in the 21st century.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
The late Skip Alexander, who used to head the Psychology Dept at MUM, co-edited a book that examined post-maslow development. He wrote the chapter on Vedic Psychology, and prominent mainstream-psychologists wrote chapters on post-Maslow, -post-Piagetian, etc., psychology. _Higher Stages of Human Development_ -Alexander and Langer, ed. May still be in print. [You can't have my autographed copy, sorry] L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : When thinking about why people value certain experiences and do certain activities, I like Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a guideline. IOW, once certain basic needs are met, then a person seeks to satisfy additional needs. Which might not be higher but which might simply involve activating more of the brain. Could it be that we're simply compelled by neural pathways in our brain that want to be activated? Or are we simply physical organisms seeking homeostatis all the time? Today is Mahalakshmi day. There's a big celebration in the Dome. I haven't decided whether I will go or not. Autumn has been so beautiful here. I feel happy enough just glancing up from the computer once and a while, out the window to the trees and the sky, walking to the post office, doing my everyday tasks. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't need to go to the Dome and hopefully get blessings from Mahalakshmi in the form of more money and then feel happier. I am already feeling happy enough. Much much gratitude... On Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:00 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness Well said Barry - and I agree with every word It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable. I'm just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to the plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be. Most teachers or seekers just *assume* that these experiences they have or claim to have had are valuable, but when called upon to do so, they can't really produce any strong arguments for WHY they are valuable, or WHAT that supposed value is. I'm suggesting that this oversight is epidemic in the world of spiritual practices, the elephant in the room that no one ever talks about. The people promoting these practices just *assume* that these experiences they're having or seeking are *worth* having or seeking, and debate the supposedly best ways of achieving them. But I don't know of very many who have taken that step back, beyond the assumption, and have tried to make a case for WHY they're so intent on achieving these things. What is it that they hope to achieve, and WHY would others want to do so? Answers such as, Well, I want to have these experiences because Jim Flanegin said that I would be a low-vibe slime until I had them the way he has do not count. :-) :-) :-) It's the same problem I see with religion in general. The people urging others to join their religions don't seem to ever offer any real-world, payoff-in-this-lifetime reasons for doing so. They just *assume* that there is a payoff, and try to bluff their way through without ever specifying what it is. Millions and millions of seekers over the ages, and almost none of them have ever come up with a real *value* for all this seeking they're devoting their lives to. I'm NOT suggesting that there isn't one, just pointing out that no one ever seems to talk about it if there is. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system. But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these experiences of unboundedness. That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps everything else. I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the first
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
A slight nit: in the 40 years that Benson has been publishing his book he never, not even once, published a head-to-head study of TM vs his Relaxation Response. In fact, the criticisms that were leveled against Keith Wallace's first study apply equally well to Benson's research. And so, for the past 40 years, comparisons of the effects of two different practices were made based on preliminary results of studies that wouldn't be published in today's journals. When the American Heart Association meditation practices, they compared all the research they could find on every practice, including Benson's Relaxation Response. Their conclusion was that only TM had sufficiently GOOD research with sufficiently CONSISTENT effects, to allow them to make a recommendation. All other practices were given a non-passing grade. Remember: that's 40 years of research coming out of HARVARD UNIVERSITY couldn't persuade the AHA to endorse Benson's Relaxation Response. So... to call Benson the foremost meditation scientist is pure BS. To say that TM blew it by alienating such a great scientist is another bit of BS. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Like you Share, I really did not pay attention to the selling points as I had had experiences prior to TM, I was just looking for an easy way to meditate, a natural consequence of being lazy. The sell was there in the introductory and preparatory lectures and in available chart books supposedly showing benefits from the scientific side, but I ignored all that at the time. My first few meditations were really rotten, I almost quit right there. But trying to sell TM to friends who are not really into this kind of thing proved more of a challenge. None of my friends ever learned, except for a couple, and they never finished the course. A few of my family learned, and they all quit too. I did discover that some of my friends who were teachers, when I criticised the quality of the scientific research on TM, would try really had to convince me the research was really true. About 1% of research on meditation in general is of good quality. Part of that seems to lie with the advertising mentality of the TMO. Dr. Lorin Roche wrote the following: The Relaxation Response is the term coined by Herbert Benson, M.D., in 1968 or so when looking at the physiological data he was getting from TM (Transcendental Meditation) meditators who were coming to his lab to be measured. Benson soon got tired of our relentless TM zealotry and the way we (TM teachers who were working for him) would sign official research documents with Jai Guru Dev. As TM teachers, we wanted to take the results from his lab and instantly use them as part of our advertising and our public lectures. TM at the time had meditation centers in every major city in the United States, and teachers on most every college campus across the country. It was a hugely popular movement. But Benson needed to be able to clone TM, make it into a laboratory-standardized technique that could be replicated and measured at other labs. That's what science is. So he decided to de-mystify mantras, and he started telling people to just pick their own mantra, such as the word, ONE. This scandalized the whole TM movement, but he had to do it. And truth be told, as far as I know, Benson in his 30 years or so of research on the physiology of meditation, publishing hundreds of scientific papers, is probably the greatest meditation scientist ever. I trust his findings. In the late 1960's and early 1970's, TM meditators were the guinea pigs of choice for scientists, because there were hundreds of thousands of them in the United States alone, and tens of thousands in other countries, their training was standardized, and they were so well trained that they could come into a medical lab and actually MEDITATE while the scientists stuck needles in their arms, electrodes on their heads, hands and hearts, and breathe into oxygen-consumption measuring masks. It's hard to find people like that! Think about it. Who in their right mind would take out part of their day to do such a thing? When I used to do this, in the 70's, it meant driving through ugly traffic to UCI Medical School, then going into a lab with a thousand rats in cages just a couple dozen feet away, the smell of ether in the air, and letting the guys in white coats poke me with huge needles and take blood samples while I meditated. TM blew it, by alienating one of the great scientists at work in the field, and by pushing bad science — publishing in their ads the results of trial studies. But the Buddhists, by comparison, played it very smart, and gradually came to be the favorite of physiological researchers. The Buddhists cheerfully cooperated with the needs of scientists, it is a match made in heaven because Buddhism is a very
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Funny you mention this word. When a journalist in Vlodrop asked who are you really Maharishi, he simply said; I'm just a normal human being. Whereupon Bevan afterwards remarked; today we got a new understanding of what it means to be normal :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Just to be clear, at no time have I said I was in the highest state of human development. The way I learned it, according to Maharishi, was that enlightenment meant simply, normal, and everything continues from there, as it always has. Draw your own conclusions. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : I have no problem with your friendship with Ann - As she responded, she suspects some of what I said is accurate, M: That would require her to believe that you know my feelings when reading posts or whether or not I even read posts between other people here. It would be equally bogus for her as it is for you who made this absurd claim. I was a bit disappointed when I read that. J: but doesn't let that deter a friendship with you. I don't play the chimp's games, and you, like the chimp, seem to have a difficult time reconciling, one the one hand, denying that I am enlightened, while finding enlightenment a bogus concept, to begin with. A Big Confusing Issue with you two. I recommend TM for both of you for awhile, say 50 years?? Better get started... :-) M: Nothing confusing about those two things at all Jim. The more you insist you are in the highest state of human development the more glaring the contrast with what and how you post here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I'm sure Ann appreciates your straightening her out about me Jim. She was making the mistake of trusting her own impression, but now has the enlightened perspective from you on my dark motives and inner thoughts. At first I wondered how you could know about my inner feelings or whether or not I even read posts between other posters, but then I remembered: Jim is in a superior state of mind and it made more sense. I was amazed that you nailed me on exploiting Barry's posts although I am still a bit unclear how this actually plays out in the, outside of Jim's enlightened head, world. Thanks for clearing up any confusion about my dark motives, because for a second, I read your whole intention as acting out a kindergarten sandbox emotional level scene:NO, Ann is MY friend. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : So, you must be a man of deep capacity to be able to hold within your appreciation myself and someone as different as I am in the form of bawee. Maybe one day I'll get there too. Something to point out, about Curtis, Ann -- Rather than an expression of his social flexibility and capacity to entertain multiple points of view, Curtis enjoys Barry's anti-social nature, and exploits it fully. This way, he enjoys the vicarious pleasure of watching Barry insult and abuse others endlessly, and at the same time, tries to ensure by his uber reasonableness, and kumbaya attitude, that none of the stink gets on him, personally. Curtis is Barry's puppet-master. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I may not respond point by point Ann. You and I have our clear channel. I think we get each other. I am more of a one one one poster here. Steve nailed me recently. He said I respond to everyone in sympathetic response to how they respond to me. That was a typical insightful naildown from my brother Steve. You and I do not agree with our perspectives on Barry. But you have separated your view of him from my friendliness toward him. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that Ann. You are a friend here. And in my world. I can be friends with you AND Barry and appreciate you both for different reasons. That is how I roll. I think you roll that way too. Robin was unable to allow me to be connected to people who were hostile toward him and still be friendly with him. You seem able to go beyond this. I like you, and I like Barry. What you do between yourselves is none of my business. Does that work for you? Ahhh, now I get to talk to you friend to friend. Curtis, you know I support you 100% in what I see as your diligent and love-inspired passionate pursuit of your art, your music. No one can ever take that away from you. As an artist you are rarified, you are special because artists have to wade through tough, weed-choked waters. There is little money in it and there is the need to keep moving on and progressing even when things seem to have become comfortable and even profitable in their way. But real artists are never at rest, so it can be grueling and bone-racking. But, I digress. Of
[FairfieldLife] Re: FFL Hating Turq and Belief in God is a form of mental illness
I do understand why people object to Barry's toxic behavior, but that's who he is and what he does, and it has not changed. So, why keep reacting to an energy creature who seeks reaction? It's a sign of sanity ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, j_alexander_stanley@... wrote : Ok, done. It was a tough negotiation with the car dealer, but I held my ground, and he ended up having to give me a rebuilt, salvage title 2003 Pontiac Vibe in exchange for the Veyron. Booyah! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : An Open Letter To Management Look Alex, I like you, but you are going to have to start doing your job around here, moderating, or the perks stop; no more unlimited flights on leased jets, the Dubai luncheon was clearly excessive, and your FFL oversight fees last year, exceeded the GDP of Jamaica. I know Rick is trying to make up the difference - Interview service charges on BATGAP are now at an all time high (~$3,000 per event), but reasonable is reasonable. Perhaps an immediate downgrade, from the Bugatti Veyron company car, could be a quick, good faith gesture? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, j_alexander_stanley@... wrote : I'm still quite busy with real life, but when I see references to moderators should have blah blah blah it's time for me to remind folks that Rick already has the forum moderated as he sees fit. As for Judy, unless I missed something, we don't know what's up with her or why she left. Personally, I don't understand why people would be drawn to engage in the ego monkey bullshit that makes up the bulk of FFL's traffic, but it is what it is. I do understand why people object to Barry's toxic behavior, but that's who he is and what he does, and it has not changed. So, why keep reacting to an energy creature who seeks reaction?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
On 10/23/2014 2:21 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] wrote: I guess you just like to live in a world where you bow down to the landed gentry. That's where we're headed now. I'd rather stick a pitchfork in them. You want to stick a pitchfork in your landlord instead of paying your rent? You're not even making any sense. Go figure. On 10/23/2014 12:15 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: And when you tax TF out of businesses and or the rich, they have less money to expand or modernize businesses( remember the steel industry back in the 70'S) or to give raises to their employees. You end up with fewer jobs and smaller tax base, less revenue and so the government barrows more money to meet it's needs, which turns out to be unemployment benefits, welfare and food stamps etc. for those that can't find jobs because there aren't any, because the government is taking the profits from the businesses! Unions don't help either because they've become so greedy that they drive their members jobs over seas (Textiles). When was the last time you bought an article of clothing made in the USA? If you did, a shirt would probably cost you nearly sixty dollars! Just came back from shopping and that's what I found.
[FairfieldLife] Post Count Fri 24-Oct-14 00:15:05 UTC
Fairfield Life Post Counter === Start Date (UTC): 10/18/14 00:00:00 End Date (UTC): 10/25/14 00:00:00 681 messages as of (UTC) 10/23/14 23:25:29 95 fleetwood_macncheese 94 'Richard J. Williams' punditster 86 awoelflebater 50 TurquoiseBee turquoiseb 48 salyavin808 41 Share Long sharelong60 37 steve.sundur 35 Bhairitu noozguru 34 curtisdeltablues 26 jr_esq 24 Michael Jackson mjackson74 18 anartaxius 15 nablusoss1008 11 Mike Dixon mdixon.6569 10 dhamiltony2k5 10 LEnglish5 8 s3raphita 6 inmadison 5 wgm4u 5 blue_bungalow_2 4 emptybill 3 'Rick Archer' rick 2 turquoiseb 2 punditster 2 j_alexander_stanley 2 Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius 2 Sharalyn Pliler homeonthefarm 2 Duveyoung 1 martyboi 1 feste37 1 cardemaister 1 Dick Mays dickmays Posters: 32 Saturday Morning 00:00 UTC Rollover Times = Daylight Saving Time (Summer): US Friday evening: PDT 5 PM - MDT 6 PM - CDT 7 PM - EDT 8 PM Europe Saturday: BST 1 AM CEST 2 AM EEST 3 AM Standard Time (Winter): US Friday evening: PST 4 PM - MST 5 PM - CST 6 PM - EST 7 PM Europe Saturday: GMT 12 AM CET 1 AM EET 2 AM For more information on Time Zones: www.worldtimezone.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
On 10/23/2014 11:37 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: That was a great read, thanks! /It was intersting to see how Xeno tried to enable Barry, by leaving out of the discussion all the interesting stuff Barry believes in - like karma and reincarnation. // // //What happened - I thought you guys all read Sam Harris' book.Go figure. Xeno didn't even recognize the dissonance in Barry's preference for Bruce Cockburn songs. Everyone knows Cockburn is a born-again Christian. What about Barry's claim that a belief in God is a form of mental illness. // // //How does that work?/ ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I think you hit on something here I never considered. Social interaction. I do not think there is any objective measure by which one considers such experiences valuable. There are certain things I like, certain things I do not, and I go for the ones I like. While I do not know why, those things I like I sometimes like to share with others. A piece of music, a movie. Why did you post about Bruce Cockburn's music, his book? I am not sure there is any reliable objective measure why one likes something other than a general propensity to avoid pain and to maintain comfort. Now if you recall Maharishi said the mind seeks a greater field of happiness. Because he was hawking TM, he skewed the concept to correspond with his metaphysic (the transcendental field, the unified field). You do not need a field. Basically I think it comes down to you like stuff, and don't like other stuff. The rationalisations come later. If there is any objective evidence for that previous sentence it might be split brain experiments. When one side of the brain of people with this condition are asked to explain why the other side of the body did something, it makes up an explanation. The whole spiritual trip is a post hoc explanation fabricated to explain why something you like, in this case some kind of meditation for example, or the experience that is supposed to result from that, should be valuable to someone else. Spiritual endeavours are really quite a complex bother, all these things that one has to practice or think about, so to get someone to get involved in it really requires a real snow job. You have to bury them with advertising about how great things will be if they do this. You need an intellectual framework to explain why doing such atypical things will benefit. To get someone to come around to your ideas about what you like, it may not matter if it doesn't really work. You make up this because you are socially wired to a certain extent, and a successful social interaction results in feeling good. So there really is not much of a reason for saying such experiences as spiritual experiences are valuable, you hawk them that way, just as you would a certain artist, a good restaurant, a walk on a nice evening. Because social interactions are on an individual level, I would say the ego is involved, that level of personal identity that thinks it is running the show. The ego provides the explanations. From a scientific level, the experiments that indicate the brain comes to decisions often as far as 7 or 8 seconds prior to that decision comes into conscious awareness. That would mean you are not really in control of anything. Life goes on this and that way. Stuff happens, you think you do stuff. Hawking TM or hawking Bruce or hawking Hawking resuls in satisfaction. Whatever floats your boat. As for experiences of unboundedness, I really don't think of them that way any more. The spiritual trip is the strangest con in the universe. Suppose I put it this way: How would you like to be exactly the way you are for as long as you are? This is what I am offering you. It will take you about 40 or 50 years, and you will have to do all these different things, adopt crazy ideas, do exercises, sit quietly, eat special foods, take weird medicines. Want to jump in an try this out? In order to get people to do what you like, you have to be more devious in your enticements. It all comes down to 'I like this, and I want you to like it too'. Psst, I have some secret stuff that other people do not know, and if you let me tell you, and you do what I say, you will be able to say every day 'I'm gonna help people! Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
It is the closest word I can think of, that describes a life of enlightenment, normal. :-). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Funny you mention this word. When a journalist in Vlodrop asked who are you really Maharishi, he simply said; I'm just a normal human being. Whereupon Bevan afterwards remarked; today we got a new understanding of what it means to be normal :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Just to be clear, at no time have I said I was in the highest state of human development. The way I learned it, according to Maharishi, was that enlightenment meant simply, normal, and everything continues from there, as it always has. Draw your own conclusions. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : I have no problem with your friendship with Ann - As she responded, she suspects some of what I said is accurate, M: That would require her to believe that you know my feelings when reading posts or whether or not I even read posts between other people here. It would be equally bogus for her as it is for you who made this absurd claim. I was a bit disappointed when I read that. J: but doesn't let that deter a friendship with you. I don't play the chimp's games, and you, like the chimp, seem to have a difficult time reconciling, one the one hand, denying that I am enlightened, while finding enlightenment a bogus concept, to begin with. A Big Confusing Issue with you two. I recommend TM for both of you for awhile, say 50 years?? Better get started... :-) M: Nothing confusing about those two things at all Jim. The more you insist you are in the highest state of human development the more glaring the contrast with what and how you post here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I'm sure Ann appreciates your straightening her out about me Jim. She was making the mistake of trusting her own impression, but now has the enlightened perspective from you on my dark motives and inner thoughts. At first I wondered how you could know about my inner feelings or whether or not I even read posts between other posters, but then I remembered: Jim is in a superior state of mind and it made more sense. I was amazed that you nailed me on exploiting Barry's posts although I am still a bit unclear how this actually plays out in the, outside of Jim's enlightened head, world. Thanks for clearing up any confusion about my dark motives, because for a second, I read your whole intention as acting out a kindergarten sandbox emotional level scene:NO, Ann is MY friend. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : So, you must be a man of deep capacity to be able to hold within your appreciation myself and someone as different as I am in the form of bawee. Maybe one day I'll get there too. Something to point out, about Curtis, Ann -- Rather than an expression of his social flexibility and capacity to entertain multiple points of view, Curtis enjoys Barry's anti-social nature, and exploits it fully. This way, he enjoys the vicarious pleasure of watching Barry insult and abuse others endlessly, and at the same time, tries to ensure by his uber reasonableness, and kumbaya attitude, that none of the stink gets on him, personally. Curtis is Barry's puppet-master. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I may not respond point by point Ann. You and I have our clear channel. I think we get each other. I am more of a one one one poster here. Steve nailed me recently. He said I respond to everyone in sympathetic response to how they respond to me. That was a typical insightful naildown from my brother Steve. You and I do not agree with our perspectives on Barry. But you have separated your view of him from my friendliness toward him. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that Ann. You are a friend here. And in my world. I can be friends with you AND Barry and appreciate you both for different reasons. That is how I roll. I think you roll that way too. Robin was unable to allow me to be connected to people who were hostile toward him and still be friendly with him. You seem able to go beyond this. I like you, and I like Barry. What you do between yourselves is none of my business. Does that work for you? Ahhh, now I get to talk to you friend to friend. Curtis, you know I support you 100% in what I see as your diligent and love-inspired passionate pursuit of your art, your music. No one can ever take that away from you. As an artist you are rarified, you are special because artists have to wade through tough, weed-choked waters. There is little money in it and there is the need to keep moving on and progressing even when things seem
[FairfieldLife] Karma
BBC - The Why Factor: Karma http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/whyfactor/whyfactor_20141017-1845a.mp3 http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/whyfactor/whyfactor_20141017-1845a.mp3 Millions of people believe in Karma around the world. What impact does this belief have on individuals and ...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: FFL Hating Turq and Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Om No, MJ you misrepresent me here. I likened you and the nature of your extreme hate and behavior to be like Hamas and said I could empathize with Obama in his having to dealing with ISIS and that level of such threats for instance. I can 'understand' his position. Groups certainly have some rights to defend themselves for their life against terrorism and attack which may threaten their very existence. You are a good example of that attack and terrorism for the TM community. I find you terribly interesting in this by example. Once again in the news we have an example of 'group coalescing' to protect themselves individually and their very life to exist as a group: Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper called the events on Parliament Hill an attack on our values. Stephen Harper described the attacker as a terrorist and promised to redouble anti-terror efforts. In fact, this will lead us to strengthen our resolve and redouble our efforts... to take all necessary steps to identify and counter threats and keep Canada safe. Om Canada! -Buck in the Dome mjackson74 writes: This from the guy who said I and people like me should be targeted with drone strikes. ? “..the role of principle Barry hater - and you have to admire the gusto!” No, we all rate posts as we may read them on spectrum; from posts that make: Observations, to suggestions, to criticism, by negativity and tone, to apostasy, thence to active anger and hating. In reading these posts I feel Ann through reading the individual postings here simply lost some faith more in Turq by her better understanding of his writing and approach here after reading the Lenz book that was posted here. It is that simple also. I always read the Turq and feel he has a valid perspective from having 'been there' at a time, by his contrast with spiritual experience like Fleet's, and now I feel I have an even better understanding of him as a critic from this recent Freddy Lenz/Rama thread on FFL. Context often is everything. That is something that is particularly good about the writing on FFL, that it often can render down what is truth. Judy was very much part of that process when she was here. Ann also helps with that by virtue of her mind about things and by life experience as context about things here. Some here have been pricks and Ann may be prickly towards people at times. Rick seems to welcome almost everyone contributing to the related topics of FairfieldLife. I thank Rick for that. Public forum is often one of the best checks against theocratic tyranny. There was an amazing open meeting last night in meditating Fairfield where everything was on the table in front of a bunch of the higher-up apparatchiks of the new TM movement. For upward pressures on the organization being beyond theocratic control, FFL has long been a part of the calculus of the meditating Fairfield communal culture. There is a lot of change going on inside right now by virtue of the attention of public forum. Turq in his way has been part of that for years by force of his experience, personality and writing. I would miss him if he gets entirely hounded or completely embarrassed off of this forum. In the same way I feel it was really mean the way they hounded Judy personally off this list and out of this community. Rick and the moderators should have stopped that before the end. I would hope we could all be kinder with one another in process. Jai Guru Dev, -Buck in the Dome From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:48 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: FFL Hating Turq and Belief in God is a form of mental illness In the same way I feel it was really mean the way they hounded Judy personally off this list and out of this community. Rick and the moderators should have stopped that before the end. Huh? I don't remember Judy being hounded off the list. She got no more kickback than usual anyway. In fact, she gave every impression of revelling in a good row. And she'd amassed a group of fans, I recall she just quit posting and that was that. I would hope we could all be kinder with one another in process. It's the wild, wild web Buck. It's just the way things are done, there's trolls everywhere, I don't think Barry is one of them either. So, what happened at the meeting, who said what and what are they going to do about it? Jai Guru Dev, -Buck in the Dome
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 10/23/2014 11:37 AM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: That was a great read, thanks! It was intersting to see how Xeno tried to enable Barry, by leaving out of the discussion all the interesting stuff Barry believes in - like karma and reincarnation. I do not have time to read everything Barry writes. I have no idea what he believes about karma and reincarnation, we have never discussed it and I have not read what he said about it, if anything. We seem to disagree about the nature of free will. No one on this forum needs enabling to post what they think. Of course I never intended to include any of what you say. What happened - I thought you guys all read Sam Harris' book. Go figure. Xeno didn't even recognize the dissonance in Barry's preference for Bruce Cockburn songs. Everyone knows Cockburn is a born-again Christian. What about Barry's claim that a belief in God is a form of mental illness. Why are Cockburn's beliefs of import, Barry likes music and in particular Cockburn's songs and guitar technique. I like Bach (Lutheran), Mozart (Catholic), Brahms (probably agnostic), Glass (Jewish-Taoist-Hindu-Toltec-Buddhist); what does that have to do with [cognitive] dissonance when listening to their music? How does that work? Trolls are not that connected to what others post, with comments skewed tangentially to the ongoing discussion, so you do not need to know how it works, as that is largely irrelevant to your posts. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... mailto:anartaxius@... wrote : I think you hit on something here I never considered. Social interaction. I do not think there is any objective measure by which one considers such experiences valuable. There are certain things I like, certain things I do not, and I go for the ones I like. While I do not know why, those things I like I sometimes like to share with others. A piece of music, a movie. Why did you post about Bruce Cockburn's music, his book? I am not sure there is any reliable objective measure why one likes something other than a general propensity to avoid pain and to maintain comfort. Now if you recall Maharishi said the mind seeks a greater field of happiness. Because he was hawking TM, he skewed the concept to correspond with his metaphysic (the transcendental field, the unified field). You do not need a field. Basically I think it comes down to you like stuff, and don't like other stuff. The rationalisations come later. If there is any objective evidence for that previous sentence it might be split brain experiments. When one side of the brain of people with this condition are asked to explain why the other side of the body did something, it makes up an explanation. Thewhole spiritual trip is a post hoc explanation fabricated to explain why something you like, in this case some kind of meditation for example, or the experience that is supposed to result from that, should be valuable to someone else. Spiritual endeavours are really quite a complex bother, all these things that one has to practice or think about, so to get someone to get involved in it really requires a real snow job. You have to bury them with advertising about how great things will be if they do this. You need an intellectual framework to explain why doing such atypical things will benefit. To get someone to come around to your ideas about what you like, it may not matter if it doesn't really work. You make up this because you are socially wired to a certain extent, and a successful social interaction results in feeling good. So there really is not much of a reason for saying such experiences as spiritual experiences are valuable, you hawk them that way, just as you would a certain artist, a good restaurant, a walk on a nice evening. Because social interactions are on an individual level, I would say the ego is involved, that level of personal identity that thinks it is running the show. The ego provides the explanations. From a scientific level, the experiments that indicate the brain comes to decisions often as far as 7 or 8 seconds prior to that decision comes into conscious awareness. That would mean you are not really in control of anything. Life goes on this and that way. Stuff happens, you think you do stuff. Hawking TM or hawking Bruce or hawking Hawking resuls in satisfaction. Whatever floats your boat. Asfor experiences of unboundedness, I really don't think of them that way any more. The spiritual trip is the strangest con in the universe. Suppose I put it this way: How would you like to be exactly the way you are for as long as you are? This is what I am offering you. It will take you about 40 or 50 years, and you will have to do all these different things, adopt crazy ideas, do exercises, sit quietly,
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
You're rationalizing.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
Probably the majority of Americans don't work for the rich. They work
for small businesses. The people who run those aren't rich enough for a
pitchfork. No biting of hand that feeds in this case. And in a networked
world you don't need big businesses anymore. We're basically living in a
science fiction world but there are some laggers who haven't caught up because
they thing the game is accumulating lots of money and being a king. So out
of fashion.
On 10/23/2014 12:31 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
That's called *biting the hand that feeds you*. Thou shalt not covet! You
stick a pitchfork in them and what are you left with? Nothing but a bloody
pitchfork.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
I guess you just like to live in a world where you bow down to the
landed gentry. That's where we're headed now. I'd rather stick a pitchfork
in them.
On 10/23/2014 12:15 PM, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
And when you tax TF out of businesses and or the rich, they have less
money to expand or modernize businesses( remember the steel industry back in
the 70'S) or to give raises to their employees. You end up with fewer jobs and
smaller tax base, less revenue and so the government barrows more money to
meet it's needs, which turns out to be unemployment benefits, welfare and food
stamps etc. for those that can't find jobs because there aren't any, because
the government is taking the profits from the businesses! Unions don't help
either because they've become so greedy that they drive their members jobs
over seas (Textiles). When was the last time you bought an article of clothing
made in the USA? If you did, a shirt would probably cost you nearly sixty
dollars! Just came back from shopping and that's what I found.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Economists: tax the rich at 90 percent
When the working class have less money to spend the economy goes
into the dumps. That's why Mike's solution won't work. A lot of US
businesses are having problems like McDonalds, Coke and even Starbucks keeps
trying to get it's customers to come spend more. It's easy to see these
signs of desperation in a crashing economy.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/wages-compensationeconomystagnationsocialsecurityadministrationd.html
With trickle down all you get is the rich peeing on the poor.
On 10/23/2014 08:09 AM, marty...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
The title of the article was quite inflammatory, as usual, being HuffPo
and all. It used the fact that many Americans don't understand Marginal Tax
Rates to create hysterical click bait. Later in the article they fessed up.
This article might help:
Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a lower net income?
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| |
| Can moving to a higher tax bracket cause me to have a... Many
people think that when their income increases by enough to push them into a
higher tax bracket, their overall take-home pay, or net pay, wi... |
|
| View on tinyurl.com | Preview by Yahoo |
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: FFL Hating Turq and Belief in God is a form of mental illness
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : D: Om No, MJ you misrepresent me here. I likened you and the nature of your extreme hate M: OK, he speaks his opinions about the movement freely here... D: and behavior to be like Hamas M: His behavior is to speak his mind. Hamas's behavior is actually killing people. Kinda different don't you think? D: and said I could empathize with Obama in his having to dealing with ISIS and that level of such threats for instance. I can 'understand' his position. Groups certainly have some rights to defend themselves for their life against terrorism and attack which may threaten their very existence. You are a good example of that attack and terrorism for the TM community. I find you terribly interesting in this by example. M: I find it interesting that you are connecting his free speech with terrorist acts of violence against community of people who never have to click on what they say unless they want to to rile themselves up like you do. This is way over the line Buck. The violent imagery is disturbing and it is a creepy reaction to someone with a different POV on a movement HE was a part of himself and therefor certainly has a legitimate right to his own opinion about it all. D: Once again in the news we have an example of 'group coalescing' to protect themselves individually and their very life to exist as a group: M: So a guy posts a different opinion than you have on a 2000 person at best yahoo group and the whole TM movement is rocked to the core as if someone strapped on a bomb and walked into a marketplace and blew up women, children and men. Over the line and creepy, not to mention an indictment of the fragility of a movement who can't take the criticism of someone who left the group. I think you missed your cult Buck, you should have been a Scientologist. He didn't misrepresent you, you are comparing him to a terrorist group that actually kills people so we are killing them with drone strikes. You are not qualifying your comparison, you are making it plainly. You are also trivializing actual people who actually kill people and blow up babies to protect yourself from your own choice of reading an opinion you do not share. Scientology Top Managers In Action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG70fhg0wL4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG70fhg0wL4 Scientology Top Managers In Action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG70fhg0wL4 For licensing / permission to use: Contact - licensing(at)jukinmediadotcom Three of Scientology's top management personnel ambushing a former member of scien... View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG70fhg0wL4 Preview by Yahoo Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper called the events on Parliament Hill an attack on our values. Stephen Harper described the attacker as a terrorist and promised to redouble anti-terror efforts. In fact, this will lead us to strengthen our resolve and redouble our efforts... to take all necessary steps to identify and counter threats and keep Canada safe. Om Canada! -Buck in the Dome mjackson74 writes: This from the guy who said I and people like me should be targeted with drone strikes. ? “..the role of principle Barry hater - and you have to admire the gusto!” No, we all rate posts as we may read them on spectrum; from posts that make: Observations, to suggestions, to criticism, by negativity and tone, to apostasy, thence to active anger and hating. In reading these posts I feel Ann through reading the individual postings here simply lost some faith more in Turq by her better understanding of his writing and approach here after reading the Lenz book that was posted here. It is that simple also. I always read the Turq and feel he has a valid perspective from having 'been there' at a time, by his contrast with spiritual experience like Fleet's, and now I feel I have an even better understanding of him as a critic from this recent Freddy Lenz/Rama thread on FFL. Context often is everything. That is something that is particularly good about the writing on FFL, that it often can render down what is truth. Judy was very much part of that process when she was here. Ann also helps with that by virtue of her mind about things and by life experience as context about things here. Some here have been pricks and Ann may be prickly towards people at times. Rick seems to welcome almost everyone contributing to the related topics of FairfieldLife. I thank Rick for that. Public forum is often one of the best checks against theocratic tyranny. There was an amazing open meeting last night in meditating Fairfield where everything was on the table in front of a bunch of the higher-up apparatchiks of the new TM movement. For upward pressures on the organization being beyond theocratic control, FFL has long been a
[FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
--- punditster@... wrote : It was intersting to see how Xeno tried to enable Barry, by leaving out of the discussion all the interesting stuff Barry believes in - like karma and reincarnation. What happened - I thought you guys all read Sam Harris' book. Go figure. Xeno didn't even recognize the dissonance in Barry's preference for Bruce Cockburn songs. Everyone knows Cockburn is a born-again Christian. What about Barry's claim that a belief in God is a form of mental illness. How does that work? Nobody seems to want to talk about Barry's beliefs in reincarnation and levitation, for which there is no physical evidence. It looks like everyone is very interested in metaphysics, but not very interested in physics or logic. Go figure. This could explain how Winthrop and Albert worked on the non-weapon part, of an exclusively weapons project, in which one of them was denied security clearance. --- punditster@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... mailto:anartaxius@... wrote : I think you hit on something here I never considered. Social interaction. I do not think there is any objective measure by which one considers such experiences valuable. There are certain things I like, certain things I do not, and I go for the ones I like. While I do not know why, those things I like I sometimes like to share with others. A piece of music, a movie. Why did you post about Bruce Cockburn's music, his book? I am not sure there is any reliable objective measure why one likes something other than a general propensity to avoid pain and to maintain comfort. Now if you recall Maharishi said the mind seeks a greater field of happiness. Because he was hawking TM, he skewed the concept to correspond with his metaphysic (the transcendental field, the unified field). You do not need a field. Basically I think it comes down to you like stuff, and don't like other stuff. The rationalisations come later. If there is any objective evidence for that previous sentence it might be split brain experiments. When one side of the brain of people with this condition are asked to explain why the other side of the body did something, it makes up an explanation. Thewhole spiritual trip is a post hoc explanation fabricated to explain why something you like, in this case some kind of meditation for example, or the experience that is supposed to result from that, should be valuable to someone else. Spiritual endeavours are really quite a complex bother, all these things that one has to practice or think about, so to get someone to get involved in it really requires a real snow job. You have to bury them with advertising about how great things will be if they do this. You need an intellectual framework to explain why doing such atypical things will benefit. To get someone to come around to your ideas about what you like, it may not matter if it doesn't really work. You make up this because you are socially wired to a certain extent, and a successful social interaction results in feeling good. So there really is not much of a reason for saying such experiences as spiritual experiences are valuable, you hawk them that way, just as you would a certain artist, a good restaurant, a walk on a nice evening. Because social interactions are on an individual level, I would say the ego is involved, that level of personal identity that thinks it is running the show. The ego provides the explanations. From a scientific level, the experiments that indicate the brain comes to decisions often as far as 7 or 8 seconds prior to that decision comes into conscious awareness. That would mean you are not really in control of anything. Life goes on this and that way. Stuff happens, you think you do stuff. Hawking TM or hawking Bruce or hawking Hawking resuls in satisfaction. Whatever floats your boat. Asfor experiences of unboundedness, I really don't think of them that way any more. The spiritual trip is the strangest con in the universe. Suppose I put it this way: How would you like to be exactly the way you are for as long as you are? This is what I am offering you. It will take you about 40 or 50 years, and you will have to do all these different things, adopt crazy ideas, do exercises, sit quietly, eat special foods, take weird medicines. Want to jump in an try this out? In order to get people to do what you like, you have to be more devious in your enticements. Itall comes down to 'I like this, and I want you to like it too'. Psst, I have some secret stuff that other people do not know, and if you let me tell you, and you do what I say, you will be able to say every day 'I'm gonna help people! Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me!
