[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> > I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
> > the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
> > hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual 
circumstances, or 
> > a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and 
powerful US 
> > might imagine. 
> > 
> > It is a culture of generations of no hope, no power and no 
change. A 
> > culture that has grown to mistrust any authority or have any 
> > possibility for personal redemption, socially, culturally or 
> > economically.
> > 
> > This situation is fertile ground for religious extremists, 
seeking 
> > power, who then trade the offer of meaning in the form of 
zealotry 
> > to these hopeless people in return for their lives. Hence 
terrorists 
> > are born.
> 
> Well said, Jim. This is something that people who
> live in our time and were raised in the affluent
> West really don't understand. I've often thought
> that the best thing that could ever happen to
> America and Americans is to have some kind of
> "compassion draft," in which every citizen is
> required to travel in third world countries for
> a year before they are allowed to vote and 
> become citizens. Most of them have never seen
> the conditions they speak so glibly about.
> 
> And this hopelessness is neither new nor limited
> to religions like Islam. Do you know what the
> "recruiting spiel" was to get people to volunteer
> to participate in the Crusades? 
> 
> It's pretty fascinating. Life was tough in the
> Middle Ages, and hopelessness was rampant then, 
> too. So the potential crusaders were promised 
> three things:
> 
> 1. They were *guaranteed* heaven. All of their
> worldly sins up to that point were forgiven, and
> they were promised that nothing they ever did for
> the rest of their lives would 'count against them.'
> Pretty persuasive argument on its own for a people
> who believed what their priests told them.
> 
> 2. They could keep everything they could 'liberate'
> while on crusade. This included property, jewels,
> women, anything.
> 
> 3. Interestingly, the clincher was the third 'guar-
> antee.' While any member of a family was on crusade,
> none of their debts could be collected. This was
> rather important to many of the noble families, 
> because they were in hock up to their eyeballs.
> 
> So it isn't just those 'other' religions who play
> on the hopelessness of a hard life. The Catholic
> Church almost invented the concept.
>
Interesting stuff-- kinda makes me wonder (tongue in cheek...) if 
religious 'extremist' is redundant...






To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[curtisdeltablues]

Excellent start for understanding these guys.  Your point about not
depersonalizing them is right on.  With both sides tarring the other
with one-dimensional projections, I wish your perspective was more
common.  Nice one.




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > > I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
> > > the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
> > > hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual 
> circumstances, or 
> > > a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and 
> powerful US 
> > > might imagine. 
> > 
> > 
> > Hey Jim,
> > 
> > But I thought that the 9-11 guys were anything but hopeless.  They
> > were educated guys.  They could have followed many others who have
> > gone to other countries and supported the tech boom.  I worked at a
> > company with a bunch of Syrian programmers.  Things were tough at 
> home
> > so they came here and made great money, which they often sent home 
> to
> > help their families.  One of the scariest problems with suicidal
> > terrorists is that we can't just chalk it up to lack of 
> opportunity.
> > 
> 
> Hi Curtis,
> 
> Kind of a special case with the 9-11 guys, since they were from 
> Saudi Arabia and educated. I don't want to get into their heads that 
> much, but I think the sense of being powerless played into their 
> decision, in addition to the ringleader being basically a hateful 
> person.
> 
> My point in talking about this is that we tend to ascribe fantastic 
> motives to our enemies, sort of a refinement to calling them names; 
> gooks, nips, krauts, and ragheads to name a few. This helps further 
> the conflict because we are no longer fighting human being like us. 
> Instead they are 'extremists' wanting to 'destroy us because of our 
> freedom'.
> 
> I am not saying they are rational beings that just need a good hug 
> to straighten them out. Far from it, though it doesn't make them 
> monsters or some sort of incomprehensible violence freaks either.
> 
> People are all, whether we like it or not, basically the same. All 
> hard wired to respond the same way to the same stuff. A little bit 
> of reflection and it is easy enough to see how this current 
> terrorist phenomenon came about.
>







 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM
~-> 

To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
> > the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
> > hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual 
circumstances, or 
> > a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and 
powerful US 
> > might imagine. 
> 
> 
> Hey Jim,
> 
> But I thought that the 9-11 guys were anything but hopeless.  They
> were educated guys.  They could have followed many others who have
> gone to other countries and supported the tech boom.  I worked at a
> company with a bunch of Syrian programmers.  Things were tough at 
home
> so they came here and made great money, which they often sent home 
to
> help their families.  One of the scariest problems with suicidal
> terrorists is that we can't just chalk it up to lack of 
opportunity.
> 

Hi Curtis,

Kind of a special case with the 9-11 guys, since they were from 
Saudi Arabia and educated. I don't want to get into their heads that 
much, but I think the sense of being powerless played into their 
decision, in addition to the ringleader being basically a hateful 
person.

My point in talking about this is that we tend to ascribe fantastic 
motives to our enemies, sort of a refinement to calling them names; 
gooks, nips, krauts, and ragheads to name a few. This helps further 
the conflict because we are no longer fighting human being like us. 
Instead they are 'extremists' wanting to 'destroy us because of our 
freedom'.

I am not saying they are rational beings that just need a good hug 
to straighten them out. Far from it, though it doesn't make them 
monsters or some sort of incomprehensible violence freaks either.

People are all, whether we like it or not, basically the same. All 
hard wired to respond the same way to the same stuff. A little bit 
of reflection and it is easy enough to see how this current 
terrorist phenomenon came about. 





To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[curtisdeltablues]

I'll read it again, thanks.



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > > I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
> > > the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
> > > hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual circumstances,
> > > or a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and 
> > > powerful US  might imagine. 
> > 
> > Hey Jim,
> > 
> > But I thought that the 9-11 guys were anything but hopeless.
> 
> If you read beyond the first paragraph of Jim's post,
> you'll find that this is just what *he* is saying.  In
> fact, he says it in the very paragraph you just quoted--
> "It is not the hopelessness and powerlessness borne of
> individual circumstances..."
> 
> And he goes on to explain:
> 
> > It is a culture of generations of no hope, no power and no change. A
> > culture that has grown to mistrust any authority or have any
> > possibility for personal redemption, socially, culturally or
> > economically.
> >
> > This situation is fertile ground for religious extremists, seeking
> > power, who then trade the offer of meaning in the form of zealotry
> > to these hopeless people in return for their lives. Hence terrorists
> > are born.
>







 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM
~-> 

To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
> > the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
> > hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual circumstances,
> > or a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and 
> > powerful US  might imagine. 
> 
> Hey Jim,
> 
> But I thought that the 9-11 guys were anything but hopeless.

If you read beyond the first paragraph of Jim's post,
you'll find that this is just what *he* is saying.  In
fact, he says it in the very paragraph you just quoted--
"It is not the hopelessness and powerlessness borne of
individual circumstances..."

And he goes on to explain:

> It is a culture of generations of no hope, no power and no change. A
> culture that has grown to mistrust any authority or have any
> possibility for personal redemption, socially, culturally or
> economically.
>
> This situation is fertile ground for religious extremists, seeking
> power, who then trade the offer of meaning in the form of zealotry
> to these hopeless people in return for their lives. Hence terrorists
> are born.







 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM
~-> 

To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis]

TorquiseB writes; snipped
> Well said, Jim. This is something that people who
> live in our time and were raised in the affluent
> West really don't understand. I've often thought
> that the best thing that could ever happen to
> America and Americans is to have some kind of
> "compassion draft," in which every citizen is
> required to travel in third world countries for
> a year before they are allowed to vote and
> become citizens. Most of them have never seen
> the conditions they speak so glibly about.

Tom T:
I have suggested that all juvenile delinquents be given a one way
ticket to a city like Bombay or the like in Bangladesh. They will be
given $5 and told that if they survive and make it back after 60 days
they will be given a ticket home to the US. I think that many of them
would not survive and that wouldn't be much loss and those that did
would really appreciate exactly how good they actually have it. Your
mileage may vary. Tom





 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/6pRQfA/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM
~-> 

To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[curtisdeltablues]

> I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
> the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
> hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual circumstances, or 
> a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and powerful US 
> might imagine. 


Hey Jim,

But I thought that the 9-11 guys were anything but hopeless.  They
were educated guys.  They could have followed many others who have
gone to other countries and supported the tech boom.  I worked at a
company with a bunch of Syrian programmers.  Things were tough at home
so they came here and made great money, which they often sent home to
help their families.  One of the scariest problems with suicidal
terrorists is that we can't just chalk it up to lack of opportunity.




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > --- curtisdeltablues wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree with your point that blending crazy
> > > beliefs and explosives takes the whole discussion out of the
> > > theoretical and into the world of "holy shit! 
> > > 
> > > --- Dave"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > with people strapping on bombs and blowing 
> > > > themselves up in coffee houses because they believe that 70 
> virgins 
> > > > will greet them in paradise, it hits a lot closer to home.
> > 
> > A short time before 9/11/2001, I read or heard 
> > somewhere that terrorism arises from a deep sense 
> > of hopelessness and powerlessness. But I'm surprised 
> > that with all my reading, I haven't run across any kind 
> > of compelling discourse as to why terrorists kill civilians 
> > and themselves. Has anybody run across a cogent 
> > essay somewhere that has some insight into terrorism? 
> > Or do you have some insights yourself? Anyone. Thanks.
> >
> 
> I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
> the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
> hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual circumstances, or 
> a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and powerful US 
> might imagine. 
> 
> It is a culture of generations of no hope, no power and no change. A 
> culture that has grown to mistrust any authority or have any 
> possibility for personal redemption, socially, culturally or 
> economically.
> 
> This situation is fertile ground for religious extremists, seeking 
> power, who then trade the offer of meaning in the form of zealotry 
> to these hopeless people in return for their lives. Hence terrorists 
> are born.
>







 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM
~-> 

To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[Vaj]

On Jul 18, 2006, at 11:02 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence  the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the  hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual circumstances, or  a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and powerful US  might imagine.   It is a culture of generations of no hope, no power and no change. A  culture that has grown to mistrust any authority or have any  possibility for personal redemption, socially, culturally or  economically.  This situation is fertile ground for religious extremists, seeking  power, who then trade the offer of meaning in the form of zealotry  to these hopeless people in return for their lives. Hence terrorists  are born.  Well said, Jim. This is something that people who live in our time and were raised in the affluent West really don't understand. I've often thought that the best thing that could ever happen to America and Americans is to have some kind of "compassion draft," in which every citizen is required to travel in third world countries for a year before they are allowed to vote and  become citizens. Most of them have never seen the conditions they speak so glibly about. Or do like Roshi Bernie Glassman does with his students, do a street retreat: live as a homeless person (really a street person, since it is temporary) for a week or two on the city streets...while deeply into meditation and other practices...http://www.zenpeacemakers.org/images/peter/bernie/street.htmlhttp://www.zenpeacemakers.org/images/peter/bernie/washington.html

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
> the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
> hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual circumstances, or 
> a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and powerful US 
> might imagine. 
> 
> It is a culture of generations of no hope, no power and no change. A 
> culture that has grown to mistrust any authority or have any 
> possibility for personal redemption, socially, culturally or 
> economically.
> 
> This situation is fertile ground for religious extremists, seeking 
> power, who then trade the offer of meaning in the form of zealotry 
> to these hopeless people in return for their lives. Hence terrorists 
> are born.

Well said, Jim. This is something that people who
live in our time and were raised in the affluent
West really don't understand. I've often thought
that the best thing that could ever happen to
America and Americans is to have some kind of
"compassion draft," in which every citizen is
required to travel in third world countries for
a year before they are allowed to vote and 
become citizens. Most of them have never seen
the conditions they speak so glibly about.

And this hopelessness is neither new nor limited
to religions like Islam. Do you know what the
"recruiting spiel" was to get people to volunteer
to participate in the Crusades? 

It's pretty fascinating. Life was tough in the
Middle Ages, and hopelessness was rampant then, 
too. So the potential crusaders were promised 
three things:

1. They were *guaranteed* heaven. All of their
worldly sins up to that point were forgiven, and
they were promised that nothing they ever did for
the rest of their lives would 'count against them.'
Pretty persuasive argument on its own for a people
who believed what their priests told them.

2. They could keep everything they could 'liberate'
while on crusade. This included property, jewels,
women, anything.

3. Interestingly, the clincher was the third 'guar-
antee.' While any member of a family was on crusade,
none of their debts could be collected. This was
rather important to many of the noble families, 
because they were in hock up to their eyeballs.

So it isn't just those 'other' religions who play
on the hopelessness of a hard life. The Catholic
Church almost invented the concept.








To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- curtisdeltablues wrote:
> >
> > I agree with your point that blending crazy
> > beliefs and explosives takes the whole discussion out of the
> > theoretical and into the world of "holy shit! 
> > 
> > --- Dave"  wrote:
> > >
> > > with people strapping on bombs and blowing 
> > > themselves up in coffee houses because they believe that 70 
virgins 
> > > will greet them in paradise, it hits a lot closer to home.
> 
> A short time before 9/11/2001, I read or heard 
> somewhere that terrorism arises from a deep sense 
> of hopelessness and powerlessness. But I'm surprised 
> that with all my reading, I haven't run across any kind 
> of compelling discourse as to why terrorists kill civilians 
> and themselves. Has anybody run across a cogent 
> essay somewhere that has some insight into terrorism? 
> Or do you have some insights yourself? Anyone. Thanks.
>

I don't think you are giving the hopelessness and impotence 
the 'credit' it deserves when spawning terrorism. It is not the 
hopelessness and powerlessness borne of individual circumstances, or 
a run of bad luck, such as most of us in the wealthy and powerful US 
might imagine. 

It is a culture of generations of no hope, no power and no change. A 
culture that has grown to mistrust any authority or have any 
possibility for personal redemption, socially, culturally or 
economically.

This situation is fertile ground for religious extremists, seeking 
power, who then trade the offer of meaning in the form of zealotry 
to these hopeless people in return for their lives. Hence terrorists 
are born. 






 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Something is new at Yahoo! Groups.  Check out the enhanced email design.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM
~-> 

To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[Vaj]

On Jul 17, 2006, at 10:46 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote:I have no real answers but I do know that explanations of poverty and powerlessness may not hold up.  The suicidal terrorists we know about best were mostly privileged.  One necessary component is a belief in an afterlife that rewards such behavior.Yes: a tribal and *mythical* god is the almost universal characteristic in fundamentalist terrorism.  That is Sam Harris's particular beef with Islam.  He states that all religions are not equal in their sanctioning of such behavior.  We don't see Buddhist terrorists even though they have often experienced as much oppression as any group.  So for him it is unchallenged irrational beliefs of extremist which are protected by religious moderates who share less extreme, but still irrational , beliefs.  I agree with his view but I really don't hold much hope for humans to give up their religious beliefs.   As long as the scriptures are explicitly supporting such behaviors with a promise of reward in the afterlife I don't see anything getting better.  Personally I think our wonderful human ability for creative thought has run amuck in the case of these irrational beliefs.  It is one of our greatest assets and it becomes our downfall when disconnected with reason. 
__._,_.___





To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!'








   



  




  
  
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



   Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. 
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



  






__,_._,___

Re: [FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[Vaj]

On Jul 17, 2006, at 9:53 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- curtisdeltablues wrote:  I agree with your point that blending crazy beliefs and explosives takes the whole discussion out of the theoretical and into the world of "holy shit!   --- Dave"  wrote:  with people strapping on bombs and blowing  themselves up in coffee houses because they believe that 70 virgins  will greet them in paradise, it hits a lot closer to home.  A short time before 9/11/2001, I read or heard  somewhere that terrorism arises from a deep sense  of hopelessness and powerlessness. But I'm surprised  that with all my reading, I haven't run across any kind  of compelling discourse as to why terrorists kill civilians  and themselves. Has anybody run across a cogent  essay somewhere that has some insight into terrorism?  Or do you have some insights yourself? Anyone. Thanks. Did you get to watch the videos I posted links to on terrorism?Ken Wilber and others in his circle of friends have talked a good bit on this. A lot of it has to do with the level of moral development and the acceptance of a tribal, mythical god, rather than a universal god and the idea that if someone does not agree with my tribal god, it's ok to kill these infidels. In fact it's more than "OK", as KW puts it, it's actually like a job promotion. In any event he goes into details on the dynamics of terrorism.Have you seen any of the TV documentaries on suicide bombers and their families? 
__._,_.___





To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!'








   



  




  
  
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



   Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. 
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



  






__,_._,___

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- curtisdeltablues wrote:
> >
> > I agree with your point that blending crazy
> > beliefs and explosives takes the whole discussion out of the
> > theoretical and into the world of "holy shit! 
> > 
> > --- Dave"  wrote:
> > >
> > > with people strapping on bombs and blowing 
> > > themselves up in coffee houses because they believe that 70 virgins 
> > > will greet them in paradise, it hits a lot closer to home.
> 
> A short time before 9/11/2001, I read or heard 
> somewhere that terrorism arises from a deep sense 
> of hopelessness and powerlessness. But I'm surprised 
> that with all my reading, I haven't run across any kind 
> of compelling discourse as to why terrorists kill civilians 
> and themselves. Has anybody run across a cogent 
> essay somewhere that has some insight into terrorism? 
> Or do you have some insights yourself? Anyone. Thanks.
>

Most terrorists don't.







 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM
~-> 

To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[larry.potter]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- curtisdeltablues wrote:
> >
> > I agree with your point that blending crazy
> > beliefs and explosives takes the whole discussion out of the
> > theoretical and into the world of "holy shit! 
> > 
> > --- Dave"  wrote:
> > >
> > > with people strapping on bombs and blowing 
> > > themselves up in coffee houses because they believe that 70 
virgins 
> > > will greet them in paradise, it hits a lot closer to home.
> 
> A short time before 9/11/2001, I read or heard 
> somewhere that terrorism arises from a deep sense 
> of hopelessness and powerlessness. But I'm surprised 
> that with all my reading, I haven't run across any kind 
> of compelling discourse as to why terrorists kill civilians 
> and themselves. Has anybody run across a cogent 
> essay somewhere that has some insight into terrorism? 
> Or do you have some insights yourself? Anyone. Thanks.
>

Hi,
I find the following article to be interesting and thorough (if 
that's at all possible):

What Makes a Terrorist?
James Q. Wilson  

Until the nineteenth century, religion was usually the only 
acceptable justification of terror. It is not hard to understand 
why: religion gives its true believers an account of the good life 
and a way of recognizing evil; if you believe that evil in the form 
of wrong beliefs and mistaken customs weakens or corrupts a life 
ordained by God, you are under a profound obligation to combat that 
evil. If you enjoy the companionship of like-minded believers, 
combating that evil can require that you commit violent, even 
suicidal, acts.

The Thuggees of India during their several centuries of existence 
may have killed by slow strangulation 1 million people as sacrifices 
to the Hindu goddess Kali. The Thugs had no political objective and, 
when caught, looked forward to their execution as a quick route to 
paradise.

In the Muslim world, one kind of terrorism, assassination, has 
existed since shortly after the death of the prophet Muhammad. Of 
his early successors, three were killed with daggers. The very 
word "assassin" comes from a group founded by Hasan Ibn al-Sabbah, 
whose devotees, starting in the eleventh century, spread terror 
throughout the Muslim world until they were virtually exterminated 
two centuries later. They killed rival Sunni Muslims, probably in 
large numbers. Perhaps one-third of all Muslim caliphs have been 
killed.

The Assassins were perhaps the world's first terrorists in two 
senses. They did not seek simply to change rulers through murder but 
to replace a social system by changing an allegedly corrupt Sunni 
regime into a supposedly ideal Shiite one. Moreover, the Assassins 
attacked using only daggers, in ways that made their capture and 
execution, often after gruesome torture, inevitable. Murder was an 
act of piety, and as Bernard Lewis has suggested, surviving such a 
mission was often viewed as shameful.

In modern times, killers have taken the lives of the presidents of 
Syria and of Sri Lanka; two prime ministers each of Iran and India; 
the presidents of Aden, Afghanistan, and South Yemen; the president-
elect of Lebanon and the president of Egypt; and countless judges 
and political leaders.

But religiously oriented violence has by no means been confined to 
Islam. In the United States, abortion clinics have been bombed and 
their doctors shot because, to the perpetrators, the Christian Bible 
commands it. Jim Jones killed or required the suicide of his own 
followers at his camp in Guyana, and David Koresh did nothing to 
prevent the mass death of his followers at Waco. As Blaise Pascal 
put it, "men never do evil so openly and contentedly as when they do 
it from religious conviction." Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert at 
the RAND Corporation, found that suicide attacks kill four times as 
many people per incident as do other forms of terrorism; since 
September 2000, they have taken about 750 lives—not including the 
3,000 who died from the 9/11 suicide attacks. Of course, most 
religious people have nothing to do with terror, and in the past 
many important instances of suicide attacks, such as the Kamikaze 
aircraft sent by the Japanese against American warships, had no 
religious impulse. Terrorists among the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka 
were not driven by religion. Today, however, religious belief, and 
especially a certain interpretation of the Muslim religion, has come 
to dominate the motives of suicide terrorists, even when religious 
aspirations do not govern the organizations that recruit them. Some 
Middle Eastern terrorist groups, such as Fatah, are secular, and 
some people join even fundamentalist terrorist organizations for non-
religious reasons.

Terrorism, however motivated, baffles people, because they cannot 
imagine doing these things themselves. This bafflement often leads 
us to assume that terrorists are either mentally deranged or 
products of a hostile enviro

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[curtisdeltablues]

I have no real answers but I do know that explanations of poverty and
powerlessness may not hold up.  The suicidal terrorists we know about
best were mostly privileged.  One necessary component is a belief in
an afterlife that rewards such behavior.  That is Sam Harris's
particular beef with Islam.  He states that all religions are not
equal in their sanctioning of such behavior.  We don't see Buddhist
terrorists even though they have often experienced as much oppression
as any group.  So for him it is unchallenged irrational beliefs of
extremist which are protected by religious moderates who share less
extreme, but still irrational , beliefs.  I agree with his view but I
really don't hold much hope for humans to give up their religious
beliefs.   As long as the scriptures are explicitly supporting such
behaviors with a promise of reward in the afterlife I don't see
anything getting better.

Personally I think our wonderful human ability for creative thought
has run amuck in the case of these irrational beliefs.  It is one of
our greatest assets and it becomes our downfall when disconnected with
reason. 



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- curtisdeltablues wrote:
> >
> > I agree with your point that blending crazy
> > beliefs and explosives takes the whole discussion out of the
> > theoretical and into the world of "holy shit! 
> > 
> > --- Dave"  wrote:
> > >
> > > with people strapping on bombs and blowing 
> > > themselves up in coffee houses because they believe that 70 virgins 
> > > will greet them in paradise, it hits a lot closer to home.
> 
> A short time before 9/11/2001, I read or heard 
> somewhere that terrorism arises from a deep sense 
> of hopelessness and powerlessness. But I'm surprised 
> that with all my reading, I haven't run across any kind 
> of compelling discourse as to why terrorists kill civilians 
> and themselves. Has anybody run across a cogent 
> essay somewhere that has some insight into terrorism? 
> Or do you have some insights yourself? Anyone. Thanks.
>






To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[FairfieldLife] Martyrs (was Re: Voodoo TM or TM Program)

[Patrick Gillam]

--- curtisdeltablues wrote:
>
> I agree with your point that blending crazy
> beliefs and explosives takes the whole discussion out of the
> theoretical and into the world of "holy shit! 
> 
> --- Dave"  wrote:
> >
> > with people strapping on bombs and blowing 
> > themselves up in coffee houses because they believe that 70 virgins 
> > will greet them in paradise, it hits a lot closer to home.

A short time before 9/11/2001, I read or heard 
somewhere that terrorism arises from a deep sense 
of hopelessness and powerlessness. But I'm surprised 
that with all my reading, I haven't run across any kind 
of compelling discourse as to why terrorists kill civilians 
and themselves. Has anybody run across a cogent 
essay somewhere that has some insight into terrorism? 
Or do you have some insights yourself? Anyone. Thanks.






To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!' 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/