[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This, from a friend: > > "As for bringing democracy to Iraq, someone said to > me the other day that its like the person driving around > the countryside of Ireland looking for Dublin. When he > stopped to ask a local former for directions, the farmer > thought for a moment, and then said, 'The only advice > I can give you is to start from somewhere other than here.'" Very well put. Unfortunately, it's too late for us to start from somewhere else. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The more I read and listen to experts (not AM radio > blowhards like Rush and his ilk) the more I realize > that democracy coming to Iraq is just some neo-con wet > dream. It ain't gonna happen. As soon as we pull-out > there is going to be a massive civil war. I'm having a Beavis and Butthead moment here with your imagery, Dr. Pete: Heh heh heh...he said 'blowhard'... Heh heh heh...he said 'coming'... Heh heh heh...he said 'wet dream'... Heh heh heh...he said 'pull out'... Although I'm sure it's unintentional, the metaphors are somehow appropriate for a country America has fucked as thoroughly as it's fucked Iraq. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
The real question is why does America think that it has a right to "bring democracy" to Iraq, or to anywhere else for that matter. We have no such right. Iraq needs a strong ruler; it was better off under Saddam Hussein. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > This, from a friend: > > > > "As for bringing democracy to Iraq, someone said to > > me the other day that its like the person driving around > > the countryside of Ireland looking for Dublin. When he > > stopped to ask a local former for directions, the farmer > > thought for a moment, and then said, 'The only advice > > I can give you is to start from somewhere other than here.'" > > Very well put. > > Unfortunately, it's too late for us to start > from somewhere else. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick > > Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > This, from a friend: > > > > > > "As for bringing democracy to Iraq, someone said > > to > > > me the other day that its like the person driving > > around > > > the countryside of Ireland looking for Dublin. > > When he > > > stopped to ask a local former for directions, the > > farmer > > > thought for a moment, and then said, 'The only > > advice > > > I can give you is to start from somewhere other > > than here.'" > > > > Very well put. > > > > Unfortunately, it's too late for us to start > > from somewhere else. > > The more I read and listen to experts (not AM radio > blowhards like Rush and his ilk) the more I realize > that democracy coming to Iraq is just some neo-con wet > dream. It ain't gonna happen. As soon as we pull-out > there is going to be a massive civil war. We can't > even stabilize the country with 130,000 troops. We > think the Iraquis can? What a joke! > I am always suspicious when our government decides that a selected country must be democratic. If you look at ANY example, it is always about us; some strategic advantage, in this case clearly oil. 'Democracy' is just the new name for imperialism in the Middle East. After all, what would happen if the government began explaining the real reasons they did things? A whole lot of self-interest would come parading out of the closet. I've also heard our government explaining its foreign intiatives as 'enlightened self-interest'- just need more enligntenment in the equation. Less enlightenment = more lies. Iraqi democracy has nothing to do with Iraqis. It is all about us. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The real question is why does America think that it has a right to > "bring democracy" to Iraq, or to anywhere else for that matter. We > have no such right. Iraq needs a strong ruler; it was better off > under Saddam Hussein. It's one thing to try to impose democracy; it's quite another to remove the obstacles to it. Iraqis do seem to want it, judging by their participation in the elections. And while they may complain that they were better off under Saddam in terms of basic services and so on--the problems with which are largely our fault--it isn't clear they'd want to go back to him. I'd worry that the only kind of strong ruler who could emerge would be one the U.S. would put in power. I'm not sure there are any potential strong men who could rule Iraq *and* resist U.S. attempts at control. > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > This, from a friend: > > > > > > "As for bringing democracy to Iraq, someone said to > > > me the other day that its like the person driving around > > > the countryside of Ireland looking for Dublin. When he > > > stopped to ask a local former for directions, the farmer > > > thought for a moment, and then said, 'The only advice > > > I can give you is to start from somewhere other than here.'" > > > > Very well put. > > > > Unfortunately, it's too late for us to start > > from somewhere else. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
Saddam Hussein was our natural ally in the Middle East, as far as fighting Islamic terrorism is concerned. Hussein repeatedly tried to improve relations with the US during the 1990s, but the Clinton Administration was not interested. Hussein, unlike what we are told these days, did not regard the US as a permanent enemy. After all, he was our guy during the 1980s, when Iraq was at war with Iran, our enemy. Now, when Iran is once again emerging (at least in the eyes of the neocons) as the big threat in the Middle East, we could use a powerful, pro-US dictator in Iraq, instead of an Iranian puppet state which is the most likely outcome of the current mess. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The real question is why does America think that it has a right to > > "bring democracy" to Iraq, or to anywhere else for that matter. We > > have no such right. Iraq needs a strong ruler; it was better off > > under Saddam Hussein. > > It's one thing to try to impose democracy; > it's quite another to remove the obstacles > to it. > > Iraqis do seem to want it, judging by their > participation in the elections. And while > they may complain that they were better off > under Saddam in terms of basic services and > so on--the problems with which are largely > our fault--it isn't clear they'd want to go > back to him. > > I'd worry that the only kind of strong ruler > who could emerge would be one the U.S. would > put in power. I'm not sure there are any > potential strong men who could rule Iraq > *and* resist U.S. attempts at control. > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > This, from a friend: > > > > > > > > "As for bringing democracy to Iraq, someone said to > > > > me the other day that its like the person driving around > > > > the countryside of Ireland looking for Dublin. When he > > > > stopped to ask a local former for directions, the farmer > > > > thought for a moment, and then said, 'The only advice > > > > I can give you is to start from somewhere other than here.'" > > > > > > Very well put. > > > > > > Unfortunately, it's too late for us to start > > > from somewhere else. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick > > > Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > This, from a friend: > > > > > > > > "As for bringing democracy to Iraq, someone said > > > to > > > > me the other day that its like the person driving > > > around > > > > the countryside of Ireland looking for Dublin. > > > When he > > > > stopped to ask a local former for directions, the > > > farmer > > > > thought for a moment, and then said, 'The only > > > advice > > > > I can give you is to start from somewhere other > > > than here.'" > > > > > > Very well put. > > > > > > Unfortunately, it's too late for us to start > > > from somewhere else. > > > > The more I read and listen to experts (not AM radio > > blowhards like Rush and his ilk) the more I realize > > that democracy coming to Iraq is just some neo-con wet > > dream. It ain't gonna happen. As soon as we pull-out > > there is going to be a massive civil war. We can't > > even stabilize the country with 130,000 troops. We > > think the Iraquis can? What a joke! > > > I am always suspicious when our government decides that a selected > country must be democratic. If you look at ANY example, it is always > about us; some strategic advantage, in this case clearly > oil. 'Democracy' is just the new name for imperialism in the Middle > East. > > After all, what would happen if the government began explaining the > real reasons they did things? A whole lot of self-interest would > come parading out of the closet. I've also heard our government > explaining its foreign intiatives as 'enlightened self-interest'- > just need more enligntenment in the equation. Less enlightenment = > more lies. > > Iraqi democracy has nothing to do with Iraqis. It is all about us. "All love is directed towards the Self" -- MMY "I meet no one but me" -- Rev. Ike Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Saddam Hussein was our natural ally in the Middle East, as far as > fighting > Islamic terrorism is concerned. Hussein repeatedly tried to improve > relations > with the US during the 1990s, but the Clinton Administration was not > interested. Hussein, unlike what we are told these days, did not > regard the US > as a permanent enemy. After all, he was our guy during the 1980s, > when Iraq > was at war with Iran, our enemy. Now, when Iran is once again > emerging (at > least in the eyes of the neocons) as the big threat in the Middle > East, we could > use a powerful, pro-US dictator in Iraq, instead of an Iranian puppet > state > which is the most likely outcome of the current mess. I also remember reading somewhere that when Saddam first considered invading Kuwait that he did in fact touch base with the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq to let her know his feelings. Somehow there was a miscommunication and Saddam got the impression that the U.S. wouldn't mind if he invaded. And so he did. Anyone else every heard anything on this? > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > The real question is why does America think that it has a right to > > > "bring democracy" to Iraq, or to anywhere else for that matter. > We > > > have no such right. Iraq needs a strong ruler; it was better off > > > under Saddam Hussein. > > > > It's one thing to try to impose democracy; > > it's quite another to remove the obstacles > > to it. > > > > Iraqis do seem to want it, judging by their > > participation in the elections. And while > > they may complain that they were better off > > under Saddam in terms of basic services and > > so on--the problems with which are largely > > our fault--it isn't clear they'd want to go > > back to him. > > > > I'd worry that the only kind of strong ruler > > who could emerge would be one the U.S. would > > put in power. I'm not sure there are any > > potential strong men who could rule Iraq > > *and* resist U.S. attempts at control. > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > This, from a friend: > > > > > > > > > > "As for bringing democracy to Iraq, someone said to > > > > > me the other day that its like the person driving around > > > > > the countryside of Ireland looking for Dublin. When he > > > > > stopped to ask a local former for directions, the farmer > > > > > thought for a moment, and then said, 'The only advice > > > > > I can give you is to start from somewhere other than here.'" > > > > > > > > Very well put. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, it's too late for us to start > > > > from somewhere else. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > I am always suspicious when our government decides that a selected > > country must be democratic. If you look at ANY example, it is > always > > about us; some strategic advantage, in this case clearly > > oil. 'Democracy' is just the new name for imperialism in the > Middle > > East. > > > > After all, what would happen if the government began explaining > the > > real reasons they did things? A whole lot of self-interest would > > come parading out of the closet. I've also heard our government > > explaining its foreign intiatives as 'enlightened self-interest'- > > just need more enligntenment in the equation. Less enlightenment = > > more lies. > > > > Iraqi democracy has nothing to do with Iraqis. It is all about us. > > > "All love is directed towards the Self" -- MMY > > "I meet no one but me" -- Rev. Ike Absolutely, and we always have a choice about which parts of ourselves we choose to address vs. ignore, and nurture vs. deny. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Saddam Hussein was our natural ally in the Middle East, as far as > fighting > Islamic terrorism is concerned. Hussein repeatedly tried to improve > relations > with the US during the 1990s, but the Clinton Administration was not > interested. Hussein, unlike what we are told these days, did not > regard the US > as a permanent enemy. After all, he was our guy during the 1980s, > when Iraq > was at war with Iran, our enemy. Now, when Iran is once again > emerging (at > least in the eyes of the neocons) as the big threat in the Middle > East, we could > use a powerful, pro-US dictator in Iraq, instead of an Iranian puppet > state > which is the most likely outcome of the current mess. Well, we certainly seem to have no problems working closely with other murderous dictators to further our own interests. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Saddam Hussein was our natural ally in the Middle East, as far as > > fighting > > Islamic terrorism is concerned. Hussein repeatedly tried to improve > > relations > > with the US during the 1990s, but the Clinton Administration was > not > > interested. Hussein, unlike what we are told these days, did not > > regard the US > > as a permanent enemy. After all, he was our guy during the 1980s, > > when Iraq > > was at war with Iran, our enemy. Now, when Iran is once again > > emerging (at > > least in the eyes of the neocons) as the big threat in the Middle > > East, we could > > use a powerful, pro-US dictator in Iraq, instead of an Iranian > puppet > > state > > which is the most likely outcome of the current mess. > > Well, we certainly seem to have no problems working > closely with other murderous dictators to further > our own interests. With the exception of that schmuck Jimmy CArter, any time a U.S. president has worked with "murderous disctators" it has been because the alternative was much worse. If the standard is that the U.S. will only deal with countries that hold a high moral or human rights code, then the list of countries we'd have contact with would be Britain, Luxembourg, and Canada (and Canada is suspect). Jimmy Carter's actions vis a vis Afghanistan and Iran probably contributed to several millions of deaths because of his silly standards. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I also remember reading somewhere that when Saddam first considered > invading Kuwait that he did in fact touch base with the U.S. > Ambassador to Iraq to let her know his feelings. Somehow there was > a miscommunication and Saddam got the impression that the U.S. > wouldn't mind if he invaded. > > And so he did. > > Anyone else every heard anything on this? That's my understanding, although it's not completely clear to me that it was a miscommunication per se. I think it's not impossible Saddam was set up, although Glaspie may not have known that's what was going on. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
People who are interested in this topic may enjoy reading _Sands of Empire_ by Robert W. Merry. My wife heard him interviewed on public radio's "The Diane Rehm Show" and got me the book. Merry describes two Big Ideas that have driven Western thought: the Idea of Progress, which holds that the tendency of life is toward more and more, and the Rise of Civilizations, which holds that natural law takes different expressions in different parts of the world. (Love those SCI shorthands!) Each idea has its own ramifications on foreign policy. Current neoconservative policy subscribes to the Idea of Progress with a twist, which is that American capitalism and democracy is the highest point of human development and worthy of being nurtured the world over. It's just a matter of time before the world catches up to us, so why not hurry the transformation along? Merry thinks the current adminstration's thinking is naive crap. Merry makes a case for how useful Saddam would have been in what he calls, frankly, a clash of civilizations with Islam. The way to manage clashes of civilization is for the leading states of the different civilizations to treat with one another and maintain stability. For example, Nixon opened the doors to China as a way to manage that power and offset the Soviets. Merry goes so far as to propose some visionary politician do the same thing with Iran that Nixon did with China. Now that Iraq cannot be the leading power of the Islamic states and Saudia Arabia is vulnerable, we need to work with someone over there. Bush's plan to establish a military presence in the Arab and Muslim world is a recipe for disaster, Merry says, not a plan for enforcing stability and modernism in the region. Merry's thoughts may rub many liberals here the wrong way, but it's the kind of conservative thinking that I, for one, miss among the Republicans. Hard-nosed, pragmatic realism. Not this fantasy world that Wolfowitz passed along to Cheney and Cheney smeared onto Bush. - Patrick Gillam P.S. If anyone here has read Oswald Spengler or Arnold Toynbee, you would dig Merry's _Sands of Empire_. And if you can explain Spengler's more metaphysical flights, I'd love to hear what you think of them. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 8/19/05 2:42:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Well, we certainly seem to have no problems working > closely with other murderous dictators to further > our own interests. > > Geeez, we sound almost as bad as MMY I learned from Robert Merry's _Sands of Empire_ that this policy of working with thugs when it suits our interests is called conservative interventionism. The idea is to only intervene when and where it serves American interests, and not get hung up on human rights and affairs govered by other sovereign nations, however unsavory they may be. A contrasting approach, liberal interventionism, is what we've attempted to do in Bosnia and Iraq. It's when we impose American standards for pluralism, capitalism and democracy on lands that don't practice them at present. It's the Woodrow Wilson school of making the world safe for democracy. Liberal interventionism is what the neoconservatives have adopted, ironically. It hasn't worked so hot. The remaining philosophies of foreign policy include conservative isolationism and liberal isolationism. In each case, we stay out of foreign affairs altogether. Conservative isolationists pursue that policy because the world is impure and we don't want to sully our affairs with the world's dirt. Liberal isolationists pursue that policy because America is impure and we don't want to sully the world with our dirt. Merry describes a fifth foreign policy, empire, and the problems that go with it, too. When I read about all these policies lined up in a row like that, I had to feel a lot of sympathy for the conservative interventionists. Yes, they treat with reprehensible thugs, but the alternatives suck worse. - patrick gillam Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The real question is why does America think that it has a right to > "bring > democracy" to Iraq, or to anywhere else for that matter. We have no > such right. > Iraq needs a strong ruler; it was better off under Saddam Hussein. Well, that's as sill a statement as I've seen in a while. Despite all the other issues, at least the UN sanctions are no longer in place. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Saddam Hussein was our natural ally in the Middle East, as far as > > fighting > > Islamic terrorism is concerned. Hussein repeatedly tried to improve > > relations > > with the US during the 1990s, but the Clinton Administration was > not > > interested. Hussein, unlike what we are told these days, did not > > regard the US > > as a permanent enemy. After all, he was our guy during the 1980s, > > when Iraq > > was at war with Iran, our enemy. Now, when Iran is once again > > emerging (at > > least in the eyes of the neocons) as the big threat in the Middle > > East, we could > > use a powerful, pro-US dictator in Iraq, instead of an Iranian > puppet > > state > > which is the most likely outcome of the current mess. > > > > > > I also remember reading somewhere that when Saddam first considered > invading Kuwait that he did in fact touch base with the U.S. > Ambassador to Iraq to let her know his feelings. Somehow there was > a miscommunication and Saddam got the impression that the U.S. > wouldn't mind if he invaded. > > And so he did. > > Anyone else every heard anything on this? > > "The US doesn't get involved in border disputes with neighboring Arab countries..." or words of that nature. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
--- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick > Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > This, from a friend: > > > > "As for bringing democracy to Iraq, someone said > to > > me the other day that its like the person driving > around > > the countryside of Ireland looking for Dublin. > When he > > stopped to ask a local former for directions, the > farmer > > thought for a moment, and then said, 'The only > advice > > I can give you is to start from somewhere other > than here.'" > > Very well put. > > Unfortunately, it's too late for us to start > from somewhere else. The more I read and listen to experts (not AM radio blowhards like Rush and his ilk) the more I realize that democracy coming to Iraq is just some neo-con wet dream. It ain't gonna happen. As soon as we pull-out there is going to be a massive civil war. We can't even stabilize the country with 130,000 troops. We think the Iraquis can? What a joke! > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make > Yahoo! your home page > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
In a message dated 8/19/05 2:07:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And so he did.Anyone else every heard anything on this? This is correct shemp, although I'm not sure of all the details. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Iraqi democracy: getting there from here
In a message dated 8/19/05 2:42:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, we certainly seem to have no problems workingclosely with other murderous dictators to furtherour own interests. Geeez, we sound almost as bad as MMY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
