Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
on 1/24/06 7:29 AM, markmeredith2002 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In their public filings, nonprofits must list their 3 highest paid employees. In the last one I saw, Hagelin was listed at $120,000. In addition he has his Institute which I think is another source of donations-income. I assume he has a mov't credit card like most higher ups. I don't think this is outrageous pay for what he does, but it's much better than most tmo devotees and at least matches what he could have made had he pursued a standard academic career path. Who were the other 2 in the top 3 and how much are they paid? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:34 AM, authfriend wrote: Well, first, we'd need to know what MMY *actually* said, rather than your version of it. Second, what Wilber was debunking was the idea of creating *electrons* (by which I assume he meant elementary particles generally), not molecules. Molecules are two steps beyond elementary particles: they're arrangements of atoms, which are in turn arrangements of particles.Well you have to understand what he's referring to here Judy--it's that the measurement/observation process at a quantum level affects the material world. It's this idea he's debunking using this example, that we modify reality, physical reality, with observation. This idea is not restricted to the discussion of the "gap" between the physical and "unified field" but also the TMSP where attention is allegedly applied to get the unified field to manifest something--to somehow modify reality. The Maharishi Effect might be a good example. Again, we'd have to know exactly what MMY said, but it isn't inconceivable he meant the molecules were built from particles that were already available. Finally, at what point did MMY use this notion as a "sales ploy" for TM? Quantum physics is constantly used as a marketing ploy for the TMO. It's been used for the siddhis, the doshas, TM, the TMSP, higher states of consciousness, world peace, economics, etc. It's a long list.Since you already claim to believe much of this, it's senseless for me to try to convince you otherwise. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 10:45 AM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:20 PM, authfriend wrote: OK, I've listened to it, and I think you need to listen to it again. The fallacy Wilber is talking about doesn't have anything to do with TM's claims. Perhaps you also need to review what TM claims, for that matter. No that's all right, it's pretty clear to me. For example he says in regard to the popular movie "What the Bleep" which prominently features John Hagelin making some typical but rather wild (TMO type) claims: "For example "What the Bleep Do we Know", I would say that more or less every actual assertion they make about physical realities, meaning "quantum realities" and their relationship to spiritual reality is categorically FALSE." Well, again, we'd need to know what Hagelin actually *said* in the film, and what Wilber means by "*more or less* every assertion." If that vague statement makes it all "pretty clear" to you, I'd say you're rather easily satisfied. I'm not a believer, maybe that's why. I realize this whole idea that Wilber is presenting takes apart many of the claims of the TMO and this would probably be hard or impossible for you to accept. To me he is stating things that were rather obvious before I heard him talk about it. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 11:19 AM, authfriend wrote: Again, we'd have to know exactly what MMY said, but it isn't inconceivable he meant the molecules were built from particles that were already available. Finally, at what point did MMY use this notion as a "sales ploy" for TM? Quantum physics is constantly used as a marketing ploy for the TMO. No, you used "Substance M" as an example. I'm asking when MMY used that notion as a "sales ploy" for TM. Substance M was not used as an example of a marketing ploy.See, this is why it's hard to take seriously anythingyou say about what somebody else has said or what theymeant. Not only have I not claimed to "believe much ofthis," I said explicitly only that I found certainpremises *plausible*. About others I've said explicitlyonly that I *don't rule them out*.Typical Judy response, play dumb. This is not what I was referring to--I was referring to your admission that you accepted that TM was a form of 'technology of the Unified Field'. If that is your belief, why should I want to try to change that? I accept that this is your belief. With response such as these, why should I waste my time? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:A few of the more respected, non-Ramtha scientists in the Bleep distanced themselves from the film after it opened saying their remarks were edited in such a way as to distort their true purport. Hagelin did not distanced himself, in fact he subsequently went on a tour with other people in the film to promote it. Doesn't seem like hagelin has any problem with the film's science. Most interesting to me is that this is one of the guys who led the charge in ffld in the mid 90s against other teachers popular in town, writing an editorial in the local paper saying MMY's teachings are the only ones that are 100% vedic and life-supporting and MUM had a responsibility to protect meditators from other teachers. Also said MMY was giving out PdD level knowledge in spirituality, while these other teachers (ravi shankar, gangagi, etc) were giving "kindergarten" classes in spirituality. Funny that this guy has no problem aligning adn touring with something as flaky as the Ramtha group. Maybe he was operating on the premise "there's not such thing as bad publicity"? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 11:44 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Get it now? We think so. You're still stalking Vaj, right? :-) Now be nice, it's still just typical game playing. She hasn't shown up at my house in months. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- authfriend wrote: Indeed. Be interesting to hear from him directly as to why he did it [touring with the "Bleep" crowd]. It's surprising to me that MMY didn't try to stop him from doing it. A story about John Hagelin touring: I'm trying to summon a memory of a conversation with a former assistant of John Hagelin. This would have been the late 1980s or early '90s. As I recall, she said John was under pressure from Maharishi to tour the country, telling scientists that consciousness was indeed the unified field. John resisted, saying his research partners would frown upon it, and more to the point, it wasn't such a slam-dunk parallel. But Maharishi persisted, ultimately saying, If you won't do it, I'll find someone who will. So John did it. I don't think John did any physics research after that. That's how I recall it, anyway. That would certainly fit the output we've all seen in movement literature and promotional materials. Sad really--such incredible potential Hagelin had. No guru should be allowed to destroy someone's career. I wonder if your observation syncs with his publication of "Is Consciousness the Unified Field?" To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 1:17 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Sad really--such incredible potential Hagelin had. No guru should be allowed to destroy someone's career. snip And let's please remember that John Hagelin is an adult, and as such, responsible for his choices. It reminds me of people who get scammed due to their greed. The question I'd ask myself is, what did Hagelin think he was getting out of this, and why? It would seem he sold his soul for proximity and access.It certainly wasn't a career move :-). To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 4:20 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:Vaj wrote: I wonder if your observation syncs with his publication of "Is Consciousness the Unified Field?" Seems to me that lecture came out some years later. So, is it the sense of the meeting that consciousness is *not* the unified field? I'm not sure what meeting you mean. "Is Consciousness the Unified Field" was a paper Hagelin wrote year ago. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:35 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 23, 2006, at 4:20 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote: Vaj wrote: I wonder if your observation syncs with his publication of "Is Consciousness the Unified Field?" Seems to me that lecture came out some years later. So, is it the sense of the meeting that consciousness is *not* the unified field? I'm not sure what meeting you mean. "Is Consciousness the Unified Field" was a paper Hagelin wrote year ago. "Sense of the meeting" is a phrase I've heard meeting facilitators use. It feels out how the group feels without voting. It takes into account with strength with which people hold views, as well as the number of people who hold a given view. I've only been following this thread with one eye, as it were, so I may have misapprehended what you all are talking about. I thought there was some discussion of whether consciousness was indeed the unified field. That was the initial idea. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 23, 2006, at 1:52 PM, markmeredith2002 wrote:Maybe his reputation within the theoretical physicists community has been damaged, but is that such a big deal. Hagelin gets paid well, gets lots of attention, esp female, within the movt and now new age circles, gets into flaky films, had TBs thinking he could be president. For an academic he's had a colorful career.Being a TMO celebrity would probably be more fun than being a physicist...esp. with the groupies--young yoginis.I wonder how much he gets paid? The lost potential that pisses me off is Doug Henning, a genuinely gifted creative genius who was a bona fide celebrity influencing millions of people with his wonderful shows on stage and TV. He wasted all those years in the prime of his career on a typical unachievable mov't project and then dies almost in obscurity. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:43 AM, cardemaister wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hoogeh snippeh #2: Quantum vacuum potentials are not unmanifest Spirit. OM AkAshastalliN^gAt.h OM Addenda corrigenda: - BS I 1 22 :D aakashaH; tat; linga_at (B. Mullquist: aakaasha [is brahma{n}] that-char.mark.-from, [that is: '"because" of']) http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_1/1-1-08.html The word Akasa i.e., ether here is Brahman on account of characteristic marks (of that i.e. Brahman being mentioned). Did you listen to the lecture? This is explained, the confusion of Spirit with Quantum reality.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
--- uns_tressor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: File Under: TMO lies and marketing ploys; Boomeritis Hinduism; Pseudo- advaita Ken goes on to suggest that what might be influencing quantum realities is not Suchness per se... This must be forwarded to Pseuds Corner, Private Eye. http://tinyurl.com/d4fte If you fly in ever more decreasing circles, Vaj, you will end up flying up your own alimentary canal. TM works, punk. You only have to do what you are instructed to do; probably you didn't. That's why family doctors suggest it over and above whatever you would push at us, which they will not even have heard of. Uns. What do you mean by works? The goal of TM is self realization or is it relaxation? Seems like there has always been this public/private split in the teaching. TM is a great relaxation technique but of limited use for self-realization at least in the general population. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
I agree with Judy. The TMO is usually not that excessive in its use of quantum physics metapohors, but there are individuals with rather concrete thinking that hvave blurred the metaphor/ experience distinction. --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: File Under: TMO lies and marketing ploys; I'm not sure the TMO has ever made the claims Wilber debunks, actually. Boomeritis Hinduism; Pseudo- advaita Answers from biologist and physicist Ken Wilber. http://www.tinyurl.com/cmay6 The first question has to do directly with the relation of modern quantum physics and spirituality. In effect, does physics prove God, does the Tao find proof in quantum realities? Answer: Categorically not. I don't know more confusion in the last thirty years than has come from quantum physics Ken goes on to outline the three major confusions that have dominated the popular (mis)understanding of the relationship of physics and mysticism. #1: Your consciousness does not create electrons. Unlike Newtonian physics, which can predict the location of large objects moving at slow speeds, quantum physics only offers a probability wave in which a given particle, like an electron, should show up. But here's the funny thing: it is only at the moment that one makes the measurement that the electron actually does show up. Certain writers and theorists have thus suggested that human intentionality actually creates reality on a quantum level. The most popular version of this idea can be found in the movie What the Bleep Do We Know?!, in which we qwaff reality into existence. Ken suggests this is both bad physics and bad mysticism. As for the former, in his book, Quantum Questions, Ken compiled the original writings of the 13 most important founders of modern quantum and relativistic physics, to explore their understanding of the relationship of physics and mysticism. Without exception, each one of them believed that modern physics does NOT prove spiritual realities in any fashion. And yet each of them was a mystic, not because of physics, but in spite of it. By pushing to the outer limits of their discipline, a feat which requires true genius, they found themselves face to face with those realities that physics categorically could not explain. Likewise, none of those founders of modern physics believed that the act of consciousness was responsible for creating particles at the quantum level. David Bohm did not believe that, Schroedinger did not believe that, Heisenberg did not believe that. That belief requires the enormous self-infatuation and narcissism, or boomeritis, of the post-modern ego, and Ken goes into the possible psychology behind all of that. #2: Quantum vacuum potentials are not unmanifest Spirit. The immediate problem with the notion that certain unmanifest or vacuum quantum realities give rise to the manifest world, and that the quantum vacuum is Spirit, is that it immediately presupposes a radically divided Spirit or Ultimate. There is Spirit over here, manifestation over there, and it's only through these quantum vacuum potentials that Spirit actualizes manifestation�with Spirit set apart from manifestation. As the great contemplative traditions agree, true nondual Spirit is the suchness, emptiness, or isness of all manifestation, and as such leaves everything exactly where it finds it. Nondual Spirit is no more set apart from manifestation than the wetness of the ocean is set apart from waves. Wetness is the suchness or isness of all waves. By identifying Spirit with quantum potential, you are actually qualifying the Unqualifiable, giving it characteristics�and right there, Ken says, things start to go horribly wrong, and they never recover. These folks are trying to give characteristics to Emptiness. They therefore make it dualistic. And then things get worse from there #3: Just because you understand quantum mechanics doesn't mean you're enlightened. Physics is an explicitly 3rd-person approach to reality, whereas meditative, contemplative, or mystical disciplines are explicitly 1st-person approaches to reality. Neither perspective is more real than the other, but each perspective does disclose different truths, and you cannot use the truth disclosed in one domain to colonize another. The study of physics, as a 3rd- person discipline, will not get you enlightenment; and meditation, as a 1st- person discipline, will not disclose the location of an asteroid (or an electron). The content of enlightenment is the realization of that which is
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
He only cites Chopra in the talk--which IMO means, by extension, the TMO.On Jan 22, 2006, at 9:35 AM, authfriend wrote:I'm not sure the TMO has ever made the claims Wilber debunks, actually. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 22, 2006, at 9:34 AM, Peter wrote:What do you mean by "works?" The goal of TM is self realization or is it relaxation? Seems like there has always been this public/private split in the teaching. TM is a great relaxation technique but of limited use for self-realization at least in the general population. Whoa! I can't believe you just said that. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 22, 2006, at 9:51 AM, Peter wrote:I agree with Judy. The TMO is usually not that excessive in its use of quantum physics metapohors, but there are individuals with rather concrete thinking that hvave blurred the metaphor/ experience distinction. Fromm a movement web site. There are entire papers on consciousness as the unified field.Discovery of the Unified Field of Natural LawDevelopments in modern science, in particular in Quantum Physics, have opened new perspectives for a unified understanding of Nature.Historically, the analysis of the microscopic structure of matter began with the idea that all substances are composed of tiny particles, like atoms and their subatomic constituents. With the development of Quantum Theory, however, physicists soon had to conclude that the classical particle picture is quite inadequate for the description of these constituents of matter, and realised that the different elementary particles have to be conceived as specific resonant excitations of fundamental quantum fields.Prior to the development of Unified Field Theories scientists had discovered a variety of separate quantum fields, such as the four force fields (of the electromagnetic, the weak, the strong, and the gravitational interactions) as well as the various matter fields. In the last few decades it was realised that with the progression towards finer distance scales an increasing unification of the Laws of Nature takes place so that previously separate quantum fields turn out to be merely different components of underlying unified quantum fields.This process of unification culminates in a complete unification at the level of the Planck scale (l0-33 cm) where all the various force and matter fields are unified into one single Unified Field of Natural Law -- the holistic transcendental field underlying all manifest creation.Properties of the Unified FieldThe fundamental properties of the Unified Field include the property of self-referral or self-interaction, which is reflected in the Lagrangian or fundamental mathematical formula quantifying the Laws of Nature at the level of the Unified Field.The Unified Field is the fountainhead of Natural Law, since all the Laws of Nature expressed in the effective field theories governing Physics at larger distance scales are already contained in seed form in the original super-symmetric Lagrangian of the Unified Field. Since it is the fountainhead of Natural Law, the Unified Field represents the most concentrated field of intelligence in Nature.Properties of ConsciousnessIt is striking how the properties of the Unified Field are precisely the attributes of consciousness. Consciousness alone is fully self-referral, since only consciousness has the ability to know itself in a completely self-sufficient manner. Moreover, consciousness in its self-referral state, Transcendental Consciousness, is the source of all mental activity and therefore a field of pure intelligence and infinite creative dynamism.Since the fundamental properties of the Unified Field are identical to those of consciousness in its self-referral state, it is natural to conclude that the Unified Field of Natural Law and the field of pure consciousness are equivalent. This is easily verified through Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation Technique, which opens human awareness to the direct experience of Transcendental Consciousness, pure consciousness, where consciousness is found identified with the Unified Field of all the Laws of Nature. During Maharishi's TM-Sidhi Programme all the subjective and objective qualities of creation are seen to emerge from the field of pure consciousness as modes of one's own self-referral intelligence.The Maharishi Technology of the Unified FieldThe Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field unites the knowledge of Natural Law discovered by the objective approach of modern science with the direct experience of Natural Law provided by the subjective approach of Maharishi's Vedic Science. It integrates the knowledge of the Unified Field brought to light by Quantum Physics with the subjective experience of the Unified Field gained through Transcendental Meditation. This integrated approach to knowledge enlivens the Unified Field in the awareness of the individual, bringing thought and action spontaneously into accordance with Natural Law, so that the individual enjoys the full support of all the Laws of Nature in every aspect of life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 22, 2006, at 10:42 AM, authfriend wrote:Where do they make the claims that Wilber debunks? The claims listed in your previous post were: --Physics proves God; the Tao finds proof in quantum realities. --Your consciousness creates electrons. --Quantum vacuum potentials are unmanifest Spirit. --Understanding quantum mechanics means you're enlightened. I can't recall ever hearing any of these claims from the TMO. The post was a brief summary of the 37 minute talk from Ken's web site.Of course if you don't *want* to see what he is talking about, you won't. It's pretty damn obvious to me. What might throw TM people off is that he does not use TM-speak to convey his ideas, but more generic, universal terminology. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 22, 2006, at 12:37 PM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: File Under: TMO lies and marketing ploys; Boomeritis Hinduism; Pseudo-advaita Answers from biologist and physicist Ken Wilber. http://www.tinyurl.com/cmay6 snip Ken Wilber has the understanding of a child. It is embarrassing to read. I'd want to hear what he actually said. Apparently this is a summary Vaj wrote. sigh. No, it's from his website:http://in.integralinstitute.org/talk.aspx?id=549Judy, what do you believe the TMO means by "technology of the Unified Field" when referring to TM and the TMSP? Do you believe it *is* a "technology" for experiencing the unified field? Is Brahman the unified field?Do you believe consciousness is the unified field as Hagelin suggests?Are you familiar with the movement's search for the elusive "substance M" and what M. said about it? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 22, 2006, at 2:36 PM, authfriend wrote:Are you familiar with the movement's search for the elusive "substance M" and what M. said about it? Is that the substance that was said to be found in the bloodstream of TMers and suggested to be Soma? If so, they were very excited about it at one point, but nothing ever happened with the research, as far as I'm aware. What does that have to do with quantum mechanics, exactly?Yes, you surprise me. The suggestion originally was that M. believed there was a molecule created by consciousness during "yogic flying" at the "gap" between matter and consciousness. So the researchers began to look for it. I'm still interested to learn the dates of the works of Chopra that contained the premises you say Wilber was debunking (and therefore that those premises were automatically claims made by the TMO). Were you able to find out? You should listen yourself. It's not a research article listing specific works, etc., it's just a talk. It's on the fallacy behind unified field = consciousness, unified field = brahman, etc.--how it is being used incorrectly. Mahesh and crew of course aren't the only ones being referred to--Fritjof Capra certainly is included as well. However no one has used it as a sales ploy better than the TMO. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 22, 2006, at 4:46 PM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 22, 2006, at 2:36 PM, authfriend wrote: Are you familiar with the movement's search for the elusive "substance M" and what M. said about it? Is that the substance that was said to be found in the bloodstream of TMers and suggested to be Soma? If so, they were very excited about it at one point, but nothing ever happened with the research, as far as I'm aware. What does that have to do with quantum mechanics, exactly? Yes, you surprise me. The suggestion originally was that M. believed there was a molecule created by consciousness during "yogic flying" at the "gap" between matter and consciousness. So the researchers began to look for it. Aaand...what does that have to do with quantum mechanics, exactly? It has to do with the idea that you could produce a molecule out of the unified field: bodily soma. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:20 PM, authfriend wrote:OK, I've listened to it, and I think you need to listen to it again. The fallacy Wilber is talking about doesn't have anything to do with TM's claims. Perhaps you also need to review what TM claims, for that matter. No that's all right, it's pretty clear to me. For example he says in regard to the popular movie "What the Bleep" which prominently features John Hagelin making some typical but rather wild (TMO type) claims:"For example "What the Bleep Do we Know", I would say that more or less every actual assertion they make about physical realities, meaning "quantum realities" and their relationship to spiritual reality is categorically FALSE."It's also interesting your statement "And yes, I think MMY uses "unified field" as a synonym for Brahman." direcly contradicts what Wilber says--Wilber emphatically states that the unified field is NOT brahman. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The great lie of Quantum Physics and Consciousness
What about the "technology of the Unified Field" that TM and the TMSP is supposed to represent? Are you saying all of that was just a razzle dazzle marketing spiel? Symbolic? Jungian archetypes of our collective unconsciousness? (LOL)Are you really telling me that TM and the TMSP is NOT a technology of the Unified Field? What about all those charts? Is John Hagelin a liar? gasp Everyone knows physicists don't lie. I almost voted for him!Or is it just another waking state artifact that Mahesh is attached to?On Jan 21, 2006, at 10:30 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:I always thought that the connection that the TMO made to quantum physics was always just a cute little analogy and nothing more. Never took it seriously and I always hoped no one else would either. Beyond being an analogy and using the platform of quantum mechanics to serve as an illustration for how consicousness works, I never saw an actual connection between the working of the mind and consciousness and physics. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
