Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment - Original Message - From: Rick Archer To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment on 6/12/05 8:11 AM, Llundrub at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --That's right. So fuck off. Go worship your suicidal loser. See where it gets you. Hey Kirk, youre a Buddhist. What about all the Buddhist monks who immolated themselves to protest this or that? Were they suicidal losers? -Need I point out the obvious diifference? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/12/05 11:18 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Jun 12, 2005, at 12:03 PM, Rick Archer wrote: > >>> Buddhist yogis who had perfected the phowa--the transference. >> >> Please elaborate a bit. > > Many trads. of Buddhism will perfect a practice, often during retreat > at least once in their lifetime. It allows them to consciously die by > transferring consciousness out of the body and into a pure dimension. So in other words they light the match and then leave the body abruptly so as not to feel the fire. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 12, 2005, at 12:03 PM, Rick Archer wrote: >> Buddhist yogis who had perfected the phowa--the transference. > > Please elaborate a bit. Many trads. of Buddhism will perfect a practice, often during retreat at least once in their lifetime. It allows them to consciously die by transferring consciousness out of the body and into a pure dimension. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/12/05 11:02 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I didn't really want to comment at all till Cardemaister made her comments >> >> Cardemaister is a she? > > We're all shes here except you. The photos were just > to throw you off. In "Jeff's" case, she's really the > lovely redhead; the guy beside her is a hired actor. :-) Cool. So I've got the world's weirdest harem going. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/12/05 11:00 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Jun 12, 2005, at 11:46 AM, Rick Archer wrote: > >> What about all the Buddhist monks who immolated themselves to protest >> this or that? Were they suicidal losers? > > Buddhist yogis who had perfected the phowa--the transference. Please elaborate a bit. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 12, 2005, at 11:46 AM, Rick Archer wrote: > What about all the Buddhist monks who immolated themselves to protest > this or that? Were they suicidal losers? Buddhist yogis who had perfected the phowa--the transference. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/12/05 9:15 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> I didn't really want to comment at all till Cardemaister >> made her comments Cardemaister is a she? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment on 6/12/05 8:11 AM, Llundrub at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --That's right. So fuck off. Go worship your suicidal loser. See where it gets you. Hey Kirk, you’re a Buddhist. What about all the Buddhist monks who immolated themselves to protest this or that? Were they suicidal losers? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 12, 2005, at 10:15 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: > In other words, you are choosing to believe what you > choose to believe. No, what I was referring to is the energetic component. If you go down to the subtle level you can recognize the energetic patterns manifesting from the shakti. A pattern is unique to each siddhi. There is always a pattern of manifestation for a siddhi, if you learn to recognize it. We used to have contests with other sidhas where we would guess the sutra the person was doing. The "trick" was just matter of having had the recognition, then you can recognize it in others. It's an easy thing to do. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
And there's the rub Unc. Good tern of phrase. We tell ourselves stories all the time to bring it in line; to make it conform; to fit the expectation. The tyranny of the mind. We build these huge melodramas all based on fear. Thanks for writing about your experiences with Rama and sharing them. -Peter TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: big snip Spirituality is not as comic-book simple as some peoplewould like it to be. UncTo subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Good morning. On Jun 12, 2005, at 7:36 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: > Huh? That last bit is just someone's conspiracy theory. > I've been in the man's personal library a few times. > There was nothing much in it but books, the same books > you probably have in yours, none of them on hypnotism. It was the library on LI. I was just asking as it was considered taboo at various times. > > The thing is, Vaj, anyone can rationalize away *anything*. > It happens every day. What makes you think it doesn't > happen in spiritual circles? Chances are there were > originally 24 disciples of Christ, but the other 12 got > scared when they were exposed to things they couldn't > easily explain, so they went the route of finding con- > venient "explanations" to explain them away. "He didn't > *really* walk on water. We were just hypnotized." Well in my own experiences with siddhis, both in practice and in others, there are certain things I look for based on that experience. Having heard the experiences of those who were hypnotized and experienced incredible things, I note the experiential differences between the two and then on observation go with which feels right. Hearing about Zen Master Rama 3rd hand via email isn't a real "close" experience, so I can only comment based on what I'm getting from email and websites. I didn't really want to comment at all till Cardemaister made her comments which merely touched my own impression. > > The naivete here of people who think that showing the > siddhis to someone would convince them that they exist > is astounding. IMO it would convince about 10% of the > people, the same percentage who would be convinced of > their existence just by hearing about them. I was more convinced when they had a practical nature--curing someone who was utterly psychotic with a glance, stopping rains, etc.--and then casually performed out of an innocence and lack of ego. In cases like that it seemed to have some value on the relative level. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
> What place?suicide, failure, not worth a shit. Don't get me wrong. I stll love ya like a brother, but why else would you come down like this unless something was hitting too close to home.lurk--That's right. So fuck off. Go worship your suicidal loser. See where it gets you. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 12, 2005, at 2:41 AM, cardemaister wrote: > Sorry, Barry, but it seems to me he was a > master hypnotist. I was wondering the same thing. I know of one western lama who saw a Hindu teacher do all sorts of amazing things only to find out later he had been hypnotized. For a number of reasons this carries that quality to it. Was that the reason no one was allowed in his private library? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
- Original Message - From: lurkernomore20002000 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:58 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Llundrub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]...> wrote:> He committed suicide. He was worse than a failure. That's not sidhi worth one shit.You know Kirk, when I see a defensive, judgemental comment like that, I figure you much just about be in the same place.lurk What place? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
My sister was into him. I went to some of his lectures. I got nothing. Then again, I also sat Pat Collins and got nothing. - Original Message - From: TurquoiseB To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment > > > Well, his sidhis led to suicide, so go figure.> > > > Not sure I understand this comment. I believe performance of > > siddhis were a small part of what he did, and he did not revel > > in their performance. From what I understand he demonstrated > > them to show one facet of what kundalini energy can do.> > Can someone summarize or point to a link explaining what sidhis he> performed?Don't know of a link, but what kinda siddhis ya want?Gotta big bag of 'em here. :-)They don't all necessarily map to the siddhis describedin the Yoga Sutras, although some do. Over the years,I saw him levitate, as in sitting in lotus and just lifting up off the chair and hovering there in midairfor minutes at a time, sometimes telling a joke thewhole time. Or in the desert, he'd just step up offthe sand and onto a "staircase" that wasn't there, andjust climb up and down it for a while, several feetabove the ground.I've been sitting three feet in front of him and seenhim go invisible, to the point where you could seestars through the outline of his body, and then nooutline. I've seen him do the same trick from thefeet up, leaving only a Cheshire Cat smile beforeit went pop! and disappeared, too.I've seen him project the double, as described in theCastaneda books. One of him was standing a few feetin front of me and another one was up on top of themountain we were in front of, waving.I've seen him -- so help me -- move the fucking starsaround in the sky, shift whole constellations, drawsmiley faces with them. That's a real corker to digest,because you know that physically they weren't movingaround, at least in this dimension, or a bunch ofastronomers would've had a hissy fit. Yet they movedaround. I saw it, and hundreds of other students sawit. Go figure.There was lots of stuff, from filling a room withgolden light to opening up portals to other dimensionsand letting us see what was on the other side. It wasreally neat.And it wasn't just watching. He didn't teach how to*do* these things, at least not in words, but there was an energetic component to these things that youcould not help but experience yourself, subjectively.It was as if there was a certain state of attentionfrom which these things could be performed, and hetook us with him to that state of attention when heperformed them.And he *also* killed himself. See what I mean aboutthe mindfuck? :-)UncTo subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
I read the kundalini stuff and it's bullshit. - Original Message - From: TurquoiseB To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:07 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment Peter:> > Lurk, have you read Unc's stories about his experiences with > Rama? Very well written and interesting. I'm sure Unc has the link.Lurk:> So far I've read the first one where he describes mostly in Lenz's > (Ramas) own words some tenants of Buddhism, mechanics of spiritual > growth and kundalini, with particular attention to performance of > the siddhis. > > No where have I read a simpler explanation of how the siddhis are > done. I believe he referred to two different types or functions of > kundalini - one for higher growth, one for flash or siddhis. I've > never heard the eastern (Indian) teachers discuss it in these > terms. Almost like they don't understand them themselves. And > this guy, Rama, actually demonstrated them, as though they were > no big deal, which of course they aren't (at least as far as real > spiritual growth is concerned).> > Rama's life (and death), took some funny twists and turns, but I've > been impressed with what I have learned about him so far, which > admittedly is not much. (But then again, I have come to trust some > of the first impressions I have about something)Nicely said. And you took IMO a wise path through thestories in my book. If you're really interested in Rama, probably the best feel you'll get for him frommy book is the chapter that is all in his words, trans-criptions of some talks that he let me record. It's at:http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/rtm03.htmlUncTo subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/11/05 6:59 PM, lurkernomore20002000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Llundrub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Well, his sidhis led to suicide, so go figure. >> > Not sure I understand this comment. I believe performance of siddhis > were a small part of what he did, and he did not revel in their > performance. From what I understand he demonstrated them to show one > facet of what kundalini energy can do. Can someone summarize or point to a link explaining what sidhis he performed? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
He committed suicide. He was worse than a failure. That's not sidhi worth one shit. - Original Message - From: lurkernomore20002000 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:59 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Llundrub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]...> wrote:> Well, his sidhis led to suicide, so go figure.> Not sure I understand this comment. I believe performance of siddhis were a small part of what he did, and he did not revel in their performance. From what I understand he demonstrated them to show one facet of what kundalini energy can do.lurk> > Yahoo! Groups Links> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Well, his sidhis led to suicide, so go figure. - Original Message - From: lurkernomore20002000 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:24 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]...> wrote:> > Lurk, have you read Unc's stories about his experiences with Rama? Very well written and interesting. I'm sure Unc has the link.> > -PeterSo far I've read the first one where he describes mostly in Lenz's (Ramas) own words some tenants of Buddhism, mechanics of spiritual growth and kundalini, with particular attention to performance of the siddhis. No where have I read a simpler explanation of how the siddhis are done. I believe he referred to two different types or functions of kundalini - one for higher growth, one for flash or siddhis. I've never heard the eastern (Indian) teachers discuss it in these terms. Almost like they don't understand them themselves. And this guy, Rama, actually demonstrated them, as though they were no big deal, which of course they aren't (at least as far as real spiritual growth is concerned).Rama's life (and death), took some funny twists and turns, but I've been impressed with what I have learned about him so far, which admittedly is not much. (But then again, I have come to trust some of the first impressions I have about something)lurk> > > > > To subscribe, send a message to:> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/> and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links> > > > > > > > > > > -> Discover Yahoo!> Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
lurkernomore20002000 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> --- In > > I consider true levitation and other siddhis in the > same boat. Unless you consider the Rama guy I worked> with enlightened, my suspicion is that if you thought> it through, you'd stop considering levitation a signpost> of enlightenment, too. He could hover and walk around> in mid-air like gangbusters; does that mean he was > enlightened? Me, I don't think so. Only enlightenment> means you're enlightened.> > UncOkay, unc. When you came on board, I checked Rama out. I read some interviews he did, and I came to a conclusion based on these interviews and his first interview in particular, that this guy was absolutely, positively enlightened. In fact if there are said to be 12, or 5 or some number of enlightened people on the planet at any given time, he was one of them. Then I read more and learned about some of the peculuarities about him, I could easily see where people would dismiss him as part or all fraud. But I have to say, from what little I have read, and it has not been extensive, this guy was enlightened. Maybe he decided to push the envelope in some odd ways, but I don't think he could ever lose that total enlightenment. I know you don't care to discuss this subject too much, but just wanted to make these comments.lurk Lurk, have you read Unc's stories about his experiences with Rama? Very well written and interesting. I'm sure Unc has the link. -PeterTo subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/11/05 1:23 PM, lupidus108 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> on 6/11/05 10:10 AM, gerbal88 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>> It _is_ nicer here. I have posted a bit at TMControversy and found >>> that the ever mangy Stein person has one of the lowest thresholds I >>> have ever encountered for intolerance of anything but the sound of >>> her own voice. What a peculiar person. >> >> How is it that we have been spared? > > Spared ? For God's sake; we have Vaj, Lundrub, Rudra Joe and UNC ! Some of my favorites. BTW, Llundrub and Rudra Joe are the same person. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
- Original Message - From: gerbal88 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment Vaj, TurquoiseB -- I "discovered" a.m.t. many years ago. I just posted something there this week. It is a very sad place, but I like the militant JW's snarrling at the door very apt. -Strange you compare MMY to amt. I learned one thing from amt, don't go. I liken it to spam and those who frequent it to hebephrenics. MMY is still an enigma to me. Amt isn't. FFLife is a pleasant place. The Movement is dead. Not much else for me to say. Laterz... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 11, 2005, at 11:52 AM, Rick Archer wrote: > How is it that we have been spared? Certainly she knows about us. We haven't been spared, she's stalking both myself and Barry here. Several others came over around the same time. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Hi Kevin: On Jun 11, 2005, at 11:20 AM, shanti2218411 wrote: > --Vaj,obviously you have no way of knowing what will happen to > meditators who have been witnessing for a prolonged period if they > stop meditating.In my own case which have I have discussed previously > in other posts the practice of TM and TMSP resulted in the awakening > of kundalini(I came to the the latter conclusion after talking to 4 or > 5 advanced chi kung and yoga instructors).This process has caused me > to have many different kinds of experiences both blissful and very > negative. Well ditto with me, although the vast majority of my experiences with shakti awakening were positive. The only real problems were with fear--once that's dealt with it's easy. > In addition to these experiences my mind has become > increasingly silent and unbounded.The difference between this spacious > inner silence and thinking feeling etc has become clearer and > stronger.These changes continue inspite of the fact that I have not > practiced TM on a regular basis for more than three years. Everyone's different--anything is possible. We are all unique. > A more > dramatic example would be the case of Susan Segal who had stopped > practcing TM for 5 yrs prior to expereincing a profound and permanent > change in her awareness.I believe that there are many more examples of > people who have experienced profound changes in conciousness as result > of TM(eg Peter,Tom T).To say that TM doesn't potentially result in > profound and permanent changes seems more like a bias you have about > TM. No, just an observation based on my own experience and what the tradition which advocates "CC" as the goal (samkhya and yoga darshana) insists is the case. > (frankly you do seem pretty invested in putting it down). Not really, it's just that we're in a forum where this topic comes up again and again. > I would > agree with your point that many people my make more progress towards > enlightenment through other spirtual paths. I also think that as LBS > has said previously that not all states of realization are the same > and the way you "gained" enlightenment will influence how you > expereince being enlighented.Kevin Interesting point. As I've stated many times here: View (darshana) determines Fruit (realization)--therefore know all you can about your "darshana"--esp. your own personal inner darshana--but also the tradition itself. Ultimately liberation, IMO, is an individual thing, about us and about our own condition--and it is rare that this will be the same for everyone and approachable by one "best" method or technique. -Vaj To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/11/05 10:10 AM, gerbal88 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > It _is_ nicer here. I have posted a bit at TMControversy and found > that the ever mangy Stein person has one of the lowest thresholds I > have ever encountered for intolerance of anything but the sound of > her own voice. What a peculiar person. How is it that we have been spared? Certainly she knows about us. > > Because I have been away from TM and Maharishi for so many, many > years, I wonder if you can answer a curiosity for me: is > his "movement" shrinking like an earthworm on a hot pavement, In Death Valley. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: on 6/11/05 10:00 AM, Jeff Fischer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> >> Well, we do all share a common philosphy. As Cindy>> Lauper sang, (gar)goyles just want to have fun... :-)>> >> Unc> > Good one. Cindy does hava NY accent. I was brought up on Long Island> but always eschewed the accent. Comes out in me sometimes when I get> very excited, animated or intense (which, fortunately, still happens> quite often). I would be interested to know where people on this forum> are from, originally (prefer this lifetime answers).Fairfield, Connecticut (born in Norwalk Hospital, lived first 5 years inWestport) We won't hold the Wesport thing against you , Rick! -PeterTo subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/11/05 10:00 AM, Jeff Fischer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Well, we do all share a common philosphy. As Cindy >> Lauper sang, (gar)goyles just want to have fun... :-) >> >> Unc > > Good one. Cindy does hava NY accent. I was brought up on Long Island > but always eschewed the accent. Comes out in me sometimes when I get > very excited, animated or intense (which, fortunately, still happens > quite often). I would be interested to know where people on this forum > are from, originally (prefer this lifetime answers). Fairfield, Connecticut (born in Norwalk Hospital, lived first 5 years in Westport) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 11, 2005, at 3:55 AM, cardemaister wrote: > In my book his spelling of some Sanskrit words > might make even that rather superficial. But I don't > mean to imply that my spelling of Sanskrit indicates > anything other than interest in the language itself. > I take the deliberate tack of not using Harvard-Kyoto transliteration or diacritics (the latter esp. since not everyone will see it the way it was intended). Only rarely will I use these--it would appeal to the few. The idea is that the largest number of people will understand what you are saying or get the gist of a Sanskrit word if you reproduce it more closely to typical transliteration sans diacriticals. So no, I don't pore over precise transliteration unless someone really needs that. Thus far, in hundreds of posts, no one has requested such. Also, since these are often casual responses, often on memory and without original sources at hand, response and spelling will follow that casual stance. As a contrasting observation I feel cryptic messages in Harvard-Kyoto transliteration without sufficient commentary will often remain that to most readers: cryptic. Hope that helps! Best, Vaj To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
I got them--hope everyone else did. Great stuff. Love the ones of Punditji with Amma and Mother Teresa. Sal On Jun 11, 2005, at 6:48 AM, Peter Sutphen wrote: p.s. I just inserted some photos through Yahoo's new photo system...did it work?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 11, 2005, at 8:14 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: > I think it is true that he vents more on a.m.t., but > then I think that is more because of the nature of that > particular forum and how it treats "off the program" > posters than it is Vaj. Precisely. It a very negative venue and you respond accordingly. However when you do, with facts, it's devastating to some, so much so that they must respond endlessly to assuage their own lack of perspective (typically that means lack of perspective outside the TM paradigm) or inner maturity. It's kinda like having militant Jehovah's Witnesses at your door that won't go away. This negative environment is largely due to a couple of bad apples, but the believer syndrome really renders discussion there almost hopeless. > ... I think True Believer Syndrome > is more related to inertia than belief. A mind at rest > tends to want to stay at rest. Therefore, such a mind > tends to want to demonize the messenger rather than > get active enough to examine the message. > > To be fair, some True Believers do both. But the thing > that *characterizes* the True Believer is that he > or she is rarely able to deal with the message *without* > trying to shoot the messenger, and without reacting to > the criticism as insulting or a threat. I thought this was a very apt point in regard to a.m.t. "Demonize the messenger" says a lot! Thanks for your thoughtful post--god knows you've suffered horrendous abuse from those on a.m.t merely because of your open-minded observations. Sad really. Best, Vaj To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment on 6/11/05 6:48 AM, Peter Sutphen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: p.s. I just inserted some photos through Yahoo's new photo system...did it work? Yes. Let’s have one of you. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I use the term "dharma" to refer to a way of being > > within the context of a particular state of > > consciousness. Waking state is a particular way of > > being that entails personal responsibility among > many > > other things. CC is a particular way of being that > is > > quite different in many ways from waking state. To > > take an understanding of action from waking state > and > > then to try to comprehend an understanding of > action > > in CC will just create massive confusion. Of > course > > people do this all the time as a rationalization > for > > wrong action in waking state. They'll say such > > nonsense as, "I didn't do it, the three gunas > did." > > And this is different from, "I didn't do it, > enlight- > enment/eternity/natural law did," as spoken by > someone > claiming enlightenment exactly how? :-) > > Unc If somebody claims enlightenment and then justifies or defends his behavior by claiming that it is the three gunas doing it ,is, in my book, quite entrenched in ignorance. It is the justification or defense that makes the difference here. Someone who is truly enlightened can not defend their behavior nor claim ownership of it. Its like the weather. It just happens. But this understanding can not be used from the perspective of waking state because it is not what is even remotely experienced . > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
I use the term "dharma" to refer to a way of being within the context of a particular state of consciousness. Waking state is a particular way of being that entails personal responsibility among many other things. CC is a particular way of being that is quite different in many ways from waking state. To take an understanding of action from waking state and then to try to comprehend an understanding of action in CC will just create massive confusion. Of course people do this all the time as a rationalization for wrong action in waking state. They'll say such nonsense as, "I didn't do it, the three gunas did." or some such ilk. While you can comprehend, quite clearly, waking state from CC, you can't even remotely understand CC from waking state. --- hyperbolicgeometry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --That's the flaw in your reasoning, Peter: supposed > multiple > Dharmas. There's just "Dharma"...not one for CC, > one for other > states, etc. In any state of awareness, desires > "occur" since they > are DRIVEN by bodily impulses which are ingrained > patterns of > behavior. (occuring before, and after > Enlightenment). The delusional > ego in the state of ignorance is not the source of > desires. It's only > a fictional actor, while the real actor is the body. > In > Enlightenment, the fictional actor (the ego > resulting from false > identifcation) is absent; but the REAL actor with > all of its impules, > inihibitions, limitations, and ingrained behaviors > remains, even > beyond the grave. > > > - In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > --- yhvhworld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > --Is this supposed to be some type of excuse for > > > immoral behavior? > > > Things just don't "happen". People (victims - > > > women...get raped, for > > > example, little boys get fondled.) These are > > > crimes, > > > not "happenings".. > > > > Of course they are. Who said they aren't?. Waking > > state has its own dharma and CC has its own > dharma. > > You can't cross understanding of these two dharmas > or > > you come to these ridiculous conclusions. > > > > > > > > > > > > - In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter > Sutphen > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter > > > Sutphen > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > An unenlightened person looks at an > > > enlightened > > > > > person > > > > > > and they appear to have desires. They > talk, > > > they > > > > > move, > > > > > > they eat food, they do this and that, they > > > prefer > > > > > one > > > > > > thing over another. > > > > > > > > > > What is it that is actually driving the > speach, > > > > > movements, eating? > > > > > And when there are preferences, why is one > thing > > > > > preferred over > > > > > another? > > > > > > > > > > If an answer is Brahman then does Brahman > have a > > > > > sense of "I"?. > > > > > > > > > > Rick Carlstrom > > > > > > > > In waking state there is a foundational > confound > > > > between consciousness and the experiential > sense > > > of > > > > "I". This "I" is ego. Because consciousness is > > > > projected into and identified with body/mind > there > > > is > > > > a bound sense of self: individuality. This ego > > > assumes > > > > ownership for action. Thus in waking state we > > > assume > > > > that action occurs because "I" am intending > it. > > > But in > > > > enlightenment it becomes rather clear that > there > > > is no > > > > "I" to intend or not to intend anything. > Action > > > just > > > > occurs or not occurs. Thoughts just occur or > not > > > > occur. Feelings just occur or not occur. There > is > > > no > > > > "I" that takes ownership. The "I" actually > does > > > not > > > > exist. But it appears to exist in waking state > and > > > is > > > > confused with consciousness. What drives the > > > > behavior/thought/feeling of the enlightened is > > > what > > > > drives everything phenomenal: > God/Nature/Mystery, > > > > whatever. This is actually driving people in > > > waking > > > > state too, but they think that subjective > sense of > > > "I" > > > > is doing it. It's quite the delusion! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact from the behavioral level > > > > > > there is no difference between the > > > unenlightened > > > > > and > > > > > > the enlightened. But the enlightened > person is > > > not > > > > > > "there" in the way the unenlightened > person > > > > > believes > > > > > > themselves to be. There is no sense of > "I" or > > > > > "mine" > > > > > > in the enlightened person. There is no > > > subjective > > > > > > "self" that sees itself as "me" or "I" . > That > > > just > > > > > > goes in enlightenment. The best an > enlightened > > > > > person > > > > > > can say is that
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:24 PM, sparaig wrote: > Intention is intention is intention is... > > The fact that you don't see this speaks volumes, IMHO. Of course I see it, but I see it as disfunction, you probably imagine this as 'purity of the tradition' or something similar. IMO this is typical of conditioned thinking or the semantical programming of the TMO: 'we're unique, we're effortless, etc.' It's mincing onions in a desperate attempt to defend a positionless postion. The give away is when people read vaguely different definitions into ordinary words or phrases. Attempting to change the intention of the word "work" is typical. Diagnosis: Judy Stein Syndrome (JSS). Don't worry, it is curable. Stop meditating, eat meat-and-potatoes and stop reading/watching movement media for one month min. Esp. avoid anything gold gilt. ;-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:14 PM, sparaig wrote: > But TM doesn't work at transcending thought. I'd get checked while it's still free if I were you! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:14 PM, sparaig wrote: > Or maybe it does, and you're ignoring the research on people who show > witnessing 24/7 for more than a year at a time. If they stop meditating, it will fade. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- yhvhworld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --Is this supposed to be some type of excuse for > immoral behavior? > Things just don't "happen". People (victims - > women...get raped, for > example, little boys get fondled.) These are > crimes, > not "happenings".. Of course they are. Who said they aren't?. Waking state has its own dharma and CC has its own dharma. You can't cross understanding of these two dharmas or you come to these ridiculous conclusions. > > - In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > --- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter > Sutphen > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > An unenlightened person looks at an > enlightened > > > person > > > > and they appear to have desires. They talk, > they > > > move, > > > > they eat food, they do this and that, they > prefer > > > one > > > > thing over another. > > > > > > What is it that is actually driving the speach, > > > movements, eating? > > > And when there are preferences, why is one thing > > > preferred over > > > another? > > > > > > If an answer is Brahman then does Brahman have a > > > sense of "I"?. > > > > > > Rick Carlstrom > > > > In waking state there is a foundational confound > > between consciousness and the experiential sense > of > > "I". This "I" is ego. Because consciousness is > > projected into and identified with body/mind there > is > > a bound sense of self: individuality. This ego > assumes > > ownership for action. Thus in waking state we > assume > > that action occurs because "I" am intending it. > But in > > enlightenment it becomes rather clear that there > is no > > "I" to intend or not to intend anything. Action > just > > occurs or not occurs. Thoughts just occur or not > > occur. Feelings just occur or not occur. There is > no > > "I" that takes ownership. The "I" actually does > not > > exist. But it appears to exist in waking state and > is > > confused with consciousness. What drives the > > behavior/thought/feeling of the enlightened is > what > > drives everything phenomenal: God/Nature/Mystery, > > whatever. This is actually driving people in > waking > > state too, but they think that subjective sense of > "I" > > is doing it. It's quite the delusion! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact from the behavioral level > > > > there is no difference between the > unenlightened > > > and > > > > the enlightened. But the enlightened person is > not > > > > "there" in the way the unenlightened person > > > believes > > > > themselves to be. There is no sense of "I" or > > > "mine" > > > > in the enlightened person. There is no > subjective > > > > "self" that sees itself as "me" or "I" . That > just > > > > goes in enlightenment. The best an enlightened > > > person > > > > can say is that they are "nothing." They > aren't > > > there > > > > in they way an unenlightened person believes > they > > > are > > > > there. There is no personal identity or self > in > > > > enlightenment. The mind can't understand this > > > because > > > > it confounds a sense of individual self with > > > > consciousness. The two have no relationship > what > > > so > > > > ever. A personal self is a product of > > > consciousness > > > > projecting into mind and experiencing itself > as > > > bound. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Or go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > > and click 'Join This Group!' > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
too silly!jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Of course it could be just my fear of an "I" disappearing, yeah it is. No big deal. When I do a stillness of the mind meditation, sometimes my heart goes nuts briefly at first, silly panic and distress, ha-ha!!. Just the stupid ego trying to reassert itself as a result of lifetimes of habit. Then the mind stops thinking and the game is over. Oh, and of course:"The information and materials contained in these pages - and the terms, conditions, and descriptions that appear - are subject to change. Not all products and services are available in all geographic areas. Your eligibility for particular products and services is subject to final determination and acceptance by the entity providing such products or services." -- part of a Citicorp warranty statement, which applies pretty well. To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
I have this figured out for myself. Maybe this will help you who haven't or maybe not. Thoughts arise. They arise from different places. In the body. Different places in space. If one is broad then when thoughts move one can act to satisfy them. One is then working for the cosmos. What happens though is the thoughts reach a culmination in the brain where they are vocalized. By the time they are vocalized and thought over they have left the more subtle realm from which they arose, and are therefore not so easily manifested. At that point, the grasping after them further lessens their power. The rememberance of the thought and its concatenation even further binds the thought until it is completely out of synch with the circumstances from which it arose. At this point, to act upon the thought is to be attacking the outer circles of the mandala of oneself. If one doesn't identify with any thought, or become attached to any thought then as a thought arises then it also is a reflection of circumstances, or better yet, is spontaneously arisen from the very source of thought. If left untouched then it liberates into awareness. If it's still in the energetic space and one can sense where it's going then to work with it then makes its fulfillment easier. The ego may very well still exist as the repository of the basic space of the phenomena, but the thoughts are not belonging to the ego, but to basic matter/space itself, and one is merely a gardener cultivating ones garden. This only applies to the person who lives with energy and not with matter in a concrete way. Just let go. Then see what arises, and go with that. The body is The Temple. Then Temple knows what it needs. The problem is when the outer cemetary of the mind - the ego, trys to run it. - Original Message - From: Rick To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]...> wrote:> a fun experiment to try: close your eyes, and one by one eliminate > the motion of the mind; no projection right, left, up, down, > backwards, forwards. Just bring it to a quiet stop, no thought. > Allow the senses to continue to operate, just don't interact with > their objects.> > Then, where is I? no idea.> > If you attempt on the other hand to think your way into an > understanding of enlightenment, you will get some reasonable > approximate understanding, but the trick then is to use that as a > spur for the heart to thirst more for enlightenment, and not allow > the ego instead to pursue this idealized concept of enlightenment, > (leading to more musing and thinking). Stupid ego. > > It always sounds so complicated when it is thought about. Works a > lot better to just not think about it. Then you will find it, and > all of your answers will come quickly and effortlessly. "It's a lot better just to not think about it", well there's a discussion stopper. It just makes me feel sorry for all those great minds over the centuries that spent their entire lives trying to express abstract spiritual truths on paper. Think of all the effort they could have saved by instructing everyone to just not think about it. Uh oh, two "thinks" in one sentence, way too much thinking going on.OSF**obligatory smiley face (first instituted by LBS)Rick CarlstromTo subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Oh thanks. We'll see. Turns out it wouldn't be for another 4-6 weeks. They're just building the place now. Not sure I really care to be honest. They didn't know what the hell they were doing and I'm not sure they would understand the process if someone who knew came to work for them. I am working right now part time at B- K- (Mardi-Gras Place) doing cooking demos on weekends. It pays better than any other job I ever had, except it's part time. Until I find something that's as relaxing and pays just as well I'm not going to worry about it. That or until the wife boxes my ears, whichever comes first. - Original Message - From: jim_flanegin To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 11:33 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment here's sincerely hoping that you get the job if you want it! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
I agree, forms of meditation that work at transcending thought by their very nature bind one to thought.Honestly, I never understood the transcending thought thing. Since the beginning for me there has been consciousness, thought and mantra all at the same time. The mantra has never changed or gotten finer, the thoughts have never gotten more subtle, and the consciousness has never gotten different. But each thing has grown more aware in terms of itself. If that makes sense. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Work in the context I used it was meant to be "to accomplish, achieve; to cause, produce" NOT "To produce or cause by continued application of physical [or mental] force". Why was that not obvious? Am I being unclear? If so, I apologize. Therefore "achieve transcendence of thought" would be a way to say what was intended--although I'm sure there's a way to semantically twist that if that's the game you wish to play! On Jun 9, 2005, at 1:41 PM, Rick wrote: > I think the key word is "work"; "forms of meditation that work at > transcending thought by their very nature bind one to thought". To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 9, 2005, at 1:14 PM, Rick wrote: > There may be a "place" where vasanas are obliterated but unless they > are no longer attractive then the obliteration is only temporary. One would have to repeat the same "cause" that created he vasana and then "seal" it--otherwise it will not recur. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >snip > > Dear Peter, > > You have done such a good job of explaining > this "I" no "I" > thing frontwards, backwards, sideways and inside > out. Even though > many are not experiencing this state of mind or no > mind right now, I > think that with a little quiet contemplation most > can at least know > abstractly what it is that you are talking about. > The problem is > that the idea of a driver of action is just kind of > swept under the > rug of God/Nature/Mystery which says to me that > although there is a > real shift of awareness being experienced there is > some > understanding that is missing. Until this > understanding is opened up > some I don't think that the questions of > responsibility in action > by "enlightened" individuals can be resolved to any > statisfaction. Agreed > > This idea starts to sound like there is a great and > powerful Oz > making all things happen from behind the curtain and > any attempts to > understand it are just the mind trying to keep > itself busy so you > better just forget it. I'm not trying to imply that. > > Is it possible that, the experience of there being > no "I" to intend > or not to intend is based on the recognition that > ego as has always > been identified with as "I" is actually not Self > therefore "I" do > not exist. Maybe a more accurate statement would be: > therefore "I" > is not the ego. No. "I" and the ego are one and the same. Rick, let me ask you a question. Why this powerful protest about the "I" disappearing? I contend that it is because of the the "I"/consciousness confound. But why do you stuggle with it? > > Didn't you say in an earlier post that your teacher > Ravi Shankar > (spl?) mentioned something about this experience of > no "I" being > something that could occur in the process of growth > towards > realization. Did he elaborate on that at all? No, he did not elaborate. I started thinking about the ego identifying with everything and therefore having no separation and did not follow-up with anymore questions. > > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Rick wrote: > > > > > Are you saying that this directly addresses > Transcendental > Meditation? > > > > All forms of meditation which work at transcending > thought, not just > > TM©. > > I agree, forms of meditation that work at > transcending thought by > their very nature bind one to thought. Can you say more about this? I don't understand. > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > __ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Rick wrote: > Are you saying that this directly addresses Transcendental Meditation? All forms of meditation which work at transcending thought, not just TM©. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Not that I know anything, but one previously used to interpret all their desires as coming from their own ego, but later one sees desires arising themselves from the universal. This is the difference. Previously desires were for limited and localized reasons but later the desires are spontaneous and universal. The desires or their fulfillment might look the same on the outside, but the desire arises with more certainty of being fulfilled. For instance, I had a job interview yesterday at 11:00 am. I had meditated and just felt like lying down and napping after. My sense of time was skewed and I awoke at 10:45 am, and I hadn't gotten ready. Right that second the job called and told me they needed to set the time back an hour. Sorry. So then I was bored and I decided to go to Walmart to get some gum. I bought some candy as well. While I was still wasting a few minutes I thought, just bring some into the interview and give it to them. A weird thought, but I did it anyway. So during the interview I put the candy on the table and they gobble it down. I had this thought that for a chef one wants people to eat from so that they salivate even when thinking your name. Normal people would never give the interviewers candy during their interview. Of course, it's different in Hollywood where giving a piece often equals getting a piece. - Original Message - From: claudiouk To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 4:35 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment The Ego, Freud said, is primarily a "bodily" ego. After enlightenment the body is still there and other people's bodies are still not one'sown.. in the relative the same rules still apply. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Fischer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]...> wrote:> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]...> wrote:> > on 6/8/05 11:45 PM, mathatbrahman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> > > > > And if the enlightened person says that in order to justify his > behavior,> > then fine. "Nobody" will mind if his body spends some time in jail.> > Nice. :-)To subscribe, send a message to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/and click 'Join This Group!' To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The "I" actually does not > > exist. But it appears to exist in waking state ... > What drives the > > behavior/thought/feeling of the enlightened is > what > > drives everything phenomenal... > > This is actually driving people in waking > > state too, but they think that subjective sense of > "I" > > is doing it. > > I am glad stating such about those in waking state > is no longer a > "huge epistimological mistake!" Another sign of Sat > Yuga. Nah, we're still in Kasli yuga because it is still a huge epistemological mistake. ;-) > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > --- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > And if the enlightened person says that in order > to > > > justify his behavior, > > > then fine. > > > > Only somebody in waking state with an ego would > > "justify" behavior by claiming that "nobody" is > doing > > the behavior. What nonsense! > > > > > > "Nobody" will mind if his body spends > > > some time in jail > > > > Absolutely! > > But I bet you 5 to 1 that the incarcerated Peter > body would bitch > about it. :) Of course! > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
Keep in mind there is a difference between the yogic conception of ego and the Freudian ego. SIgnificantly, some believe the ego isn't "real". Many (if not most) psycho-therapists subscribe to the illusion that the Freudian ego is a real entity. On Jun 9, 2005, at 5:35 AM, claudiouk wrote: > The Ego, Freud said, is primarily a "bodily" ego. After enlightenment > the body is still there and other people's bodies are still not one's > own.. in the relative the same rules still apply. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- mathatbrahman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ---Interesting theory, but the facts yell out re: > MMY ...he has "I, > I, I...written all over him. Still, he's > Enlightened. (at least many > believe. I believe he is). Of course MMY is enlightened. You see "I" written all over him. That is an attribute of "your" perception. > Take Adi Da (aka Franklin Jones). Haven't met him > personally but > have read all of his books, talked with his > disciples, seen videos of > him. No doubt, he's Enlightened. But WHAT an > EGO.!!! Love the guy's books. Again that is "your" perception. I don't know if he has an ego or not. I certainly do understand why you say this though. > Nope, saying > that Enlightned people are "different" They are diffent > and they have > their own rules "own rules"? What do you mean by that? > definitely contradicts some very bizarre behavior on > their part, in > some cases including immoral and even criminal > behavior. The enlightened are certainly capable of what is called, from a waking state perspective, "immoral and criminal behavior". > Standards > have to apply to everyone. Of course. We function in a complex social system. I assume here that what you mean by standards are social standards. > Saying there's nobody > "there" doesn't > hold water, since the body is there and "it" is > doing the behavior. The experiential reality of enlightenment is that there is no subjective "I" doing or not doing anything. The body is involved with action. > The question of Enlightenment only applies to > identification, not the > role of the body acting in the world. Agreed > As long as > there's a body, > desires must be present. You're understanding action of the body as always arising from desire. Desire is a "subjective" phenomenon that arises in waking state because of the intrinsic experience of lack because consciousness appears to be bound as an "I". Would you call the growth of a tree a "desire"? The tree desires to stretch out its leaves to the sunlight? I doubt it. This just occurs. It is the play of the three gunas/nature/God/mystery. Human behavior/thought/feeling also just occurs like a tree reacting to sunlight. It is that in waking state there is a false notion of an "I" that is created and thought to be the author of these things. > Relinquishing the notion of > a mental "doer": > (i.e. realizing the true nature of the Self and > seeing the nature of > Mind); doesn't change the fact that relative bodies > are performing > actions, exhibit desires, have programs, agendas; Agreed. > even selfish > desires which do harm to people. Of course. Just like a hurricaine can kill the body. > I suppose you would > say that it's > impossible for an Enlightened person to harm another > person? No, I wouldn't say that. But what do you mean by "harm" though? Damage to the body? Of course an enlightened person can harm or kill the body of another. (or, > are you one of those who maintain Enlightened people > are incapable of > making mistakes? It would be a mistake to believe > that notion. > Don't fall for it. Don't worry, I won't fall for that notion! But what is a "mistake" though? The term, "A mistake free life" is just a buzz term the TMO uses. > > In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > An unenlightened person looks at an enlightened > person > > and they appear to have desires. They talk, they > move, > > they eat food, they do this and that, they prefer > one > > thing over another. In fact from the behavioral > level > > there is no difference between the unenlightened > and > > the enlightened. But the enlightened person is not > > "there" in the way the unenlightened person > believes > > themselves to be. There is no sense of "I" or > "mine" > > in the enlightened person. There is no subjective > > "self" that sees itself as "me" or "I" . That just > > goes in enlightenment. The best an enlightened > person > > can say is that they are "nothing." They aren't > there > > in they way an unenlightened person believes they > are > > there. There is no personal identity or self in > > enlightenment. The mind can't understand this > because > > it confounds a sense of individual self with > > consciousness. The two have no relationship what > so > > ever. A personal self is a product of > consciousness > > projecting into mind and experiencing itself as > bound. > > > > > > --- matrixmonitor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I don't see how Enlightenment is in any way > > > connected with not having > > > desires, from a theoretical level (MMY never > said > > > that); or > > > experiential level...looking at various people > whom > > > I consider to be > > > Enlightened; for example. > > > 1. Various Buddhist teachers, and texts have > people > > > repeating the > > > Bodhisattva vow, which entails Enlightened > people > > > using some type of > > > subtle body to be us
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 6/8/05 11:45 PM, mathatbrahman at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > ---Interesting theory, but the facts yell out re: > MMY ...he has "I, > > I, I...written all over him. Still, he's > Enlightened. (at least many > > believe. I believe he is). > > Take Adi Da (aka Franklin Jones). Haven't met him > personally but > > have read all of his books, talked with his > disciples, seen videos of > > him. No doubt, he's Enlightened. But WHAT an > EGO.!!! Nope, saying > > that Enlightned people are "different" and they > have their own rules > > definitely contradicts some very bizarre behavior > on their part, in > > some cases including immoral and even criminal > behavior. Standards > > have to apply to everyone. Saying there's nobody > "there" doesn't > > hold water, since the body is there and "it" is > doing the behavior. > > And if the enlightened person says that in order to > justify his behavior, > then fine. Only somebody in waking state with an ego would "justify" behavior by claiming that "nobody" is doing the behavior. What nonsense! "Nobody" will mind if his body spends > some time in jail Absolutely! . > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > An unenlightened person looks at an enlightened > person > > and they appear to have desires. They talk, they > move, > > they eat food, they do this and that, they prefer > one > > thing over another. > > What is it that is actually driving the speach, > movements, eating? > And when there are preferences, why is one thing > preferred over > another? > > If an answer is Brahman then does Brahman have a > sense of "I"?. > > Rick Carlstrom In waking state there is a foundational confound between consciousness and the experiential sense of "I". This "I" is ego. Because consciousness is projected into and identified with body/mind there is a bound sense of self: individuality. This ego assumes ownership for action. Thus in waking state we assume that action occurs because "I" am intending it. But in enlightenment it becomes rather clear that there is no "I" to intend or not to intend anything. Action just occurs or not occurs. Thoughts just occur or not occur. Feelings just occur or not occur. There is no "I" that takes ownership. The "I" actually does not exist. But it appears to exist in waking state and is confused with consciousness. What drives the behavior/thought/feeling of the enlightened is what drives everything phenomenal: God/Nature/Mystery, whatever. This is actually driving people in waking state too, but they think that subjective sense of "I" is doing it. It's quite the delusion! > > > > > > > > In fact from the behavioral level > > there is no difference between the unenlightened > and > > the enlightened. But the enlightened person is not > > "there" in the way the unenlightened person > believes > > themselves to be. There is no sense of "I" or > "mine" > > in the enlightened person. There is no subjective > > "self" that sees itself as "me" or "I" . That just > > goes in enlightenment. The best an enlightened > person > > can say is that they are "nothing." They aren't > there > > in they way an unenlightened person believes they > are > > there. There is no personal identity or self in > > enlightenment. The mind can't understand this > because > > it confounds a sense of individual self with > > consciousness. The two have no relationship what > so > > ever. A personal self is a product of > consciousness > > projecting into mind and experiencing itself as > bound. > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
--- claudiouk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Ego, Freud said, is primarily a "bodily" ego. > After enlightenment > the body is still there and other people's bodies > are still not one's > own.. in the relative the same rules still apply. Ego arises out of identification. Consciousness identifies with the body and the mind to create a sense of individuality. When this identification is no longer occuring there is no "ownership" of anything. There is no "my" body or "your" body. This distinction in ignorance comes about because of the experience of the ego. This does not mean that there is no sensory distinction in enlightenment. Of course the sensory distinction is there (people in UC don't walk into walls!). But there is no longer "mine" and "yours". That is a distinction of ego. The ego, per its nature, includes and excludes. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Fischer" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > on 6/8/05 11:45 PM, mathatbrahman at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > > And if the enlightened person says that in order > to justify his > > behavior, > > > then fine. "Nobody" will mind if his body spends > some time in jail. > > > > Nice. :-) > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Desires and Enlightenment
on 6/8/05 11:45 PM, mathatbrahman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ---Interesting theory, but the facts yell out re: MMY ...he has "I, > I, I...written all over him. Still, he's Enlightened. (at least many > believe. I believe he is). > Take Adi Da (aka Franklin Jones). Haven't met him personally but > have read all of his books, talked with his disciples, seen videos of > him. No doubt, he's Enlightened. But WHAT an EGO.!!! Nope, saying > that Enlightned people are "different" and they have their own rules > definitely contradicts some very bizarre behavior on their part, in > some cases including immoral and even criminal behavior. Standards > have to apply to everyone. Saying there's nobody "there" doesn't > hold water, since the body is there and "it" is doing the behavior. And if the enlightened person says that in order to justify his behavior, then fine. "Nobody" will mind if his body spends some time in jail. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
